What’s the deal with Sabbath=Sunday?

[The Ryan]

It seems to be a common (not universal, certainly, but common) belief among Christians that the Sabbath is Sunday. How did they come to this conclusion? Just how common is this belief? Is it mostly confined to the “common folk”, or are do learned Christians hold this belief too? Are there sects which have this as official doctrine?

Apparently the Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13287b.htm) follows the Jewish definition, but I would guess that a good percentage of Catholics think of Sunday as being the Sabbath, so the official position and common perception aren't necessarily the same.

[John Mace]

It shouldn't be confusing to any Spanish speaker, who calls Saturday el sabado.

[ImNotMad2]

The Sabbeth is a day of rest, which Christians observe on Sunday out of respect for their risen Lord, Jesus Christ, who rose from the dead on a Sunday.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Originally posted by ImNotMad2
The Sabbeth is a day of rest, which Christians observe on Sunday out of respect for their risen Lord, Jesus Christ, who rose from the dead on a Sunday.
But how did they come up with that directive? The bible clearly says "remember the Sabbath, and keep it holy" and the Sabbath is clearly Saturday. Nowhere in the New Testament that I recall does it say it's ok to change the sabbath.

[Polycarp]

Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan
But how did they come up with that directive? The bible clearly says "remember the Sabbath, and keep it holy" and the Sabbath is clearly Saturday. Nowhere in the New Testament that I recall does it say it's ok to change the sabbath.

First, to correct a slight error of nomenclature -- the Sabbath is, properly, from Friday sundown until Saturday sundown. That is why zev and cmkeller will not be posting Friday nights, but you may see posts by them dated 10:00 PM on Saturday.

However, the Fourth Commandment is a part of the Mosaic Law, and Christians are free of the Law -- contrary to what some folks who ignore Paul's teaching on this in favor of the extensive Torah material on what one should and should not do would have you believe.

Instead, Christians are to live a life characterized by love of God and their fellow man, which will often involve the voluntary keeping of much of the Law as a way of living out that relationship. Most of the Ten Commandments, for example, are such that it's rather difficult to see how one could break one of them while still doing one's best to live that life of love. And the extreme-hypothetical exceptions, such as the woman who sleeps with her husband's captor to give him time to escape, are just that -- the "exceptions that prove the rule" in that hotly debated phrase.

Now, to honor God the Holy Trinity, Christians gathered on the Lord's Day, the first day of the week, to celebrate Eucharist, fellowship with one another, and pray together. Because it was the day on which God began Creation, it was the day on which Jesus rose from the dead, and it was the day on which the Spirit descended on the believers. And so it is kept as the day of rest and worship, in honor of Him, because of those three weekly "anniversaries."

[The Ryan]

Originally posted by ImNotMad2
The Sabbeth is a day of rest, which Christians observe on Sunday out of respect for their risen Lord, Jesus Christ, who rose from the dead on a Sunday.
Can you clarify your position on this matter? Looking at your post literally, I agree. Christians do in fact observe the Sabbath on Sunday. But you also thereby imply that the Sabbath is on Sunday. Do you in fact hold that opinion?

John Mace: my understanding is as follows (which could very well be wrong): "sabado" in Spanish is like "Sabat" in English: yes, it means "sabbath", but it refers to the Jewish one. The Christian one is "dominica" [I'm too lazy to put in the accent marks.], which is rather similar to "domingo". What a coincidence! :)

[lel]

Actually, I'm not familiar with many Christians who observe the traditional Friday sundown to Saturday sundown Sabbath, aside from believers who label themselves seventh-day believers. I'd wager that the vast majority would observe a Sunday Sabbath, following the line of reasoning given above by Polycarp.

Off the top of my head, I can think of Seventh-day Adventist (http://www.adventists.org) and Seventh-day Baptist (http://www.seventhdaybaptist.org/) Christian groups that observe a Saturday sundown to sundown Sabbath.

[ImNotMad2]

Originally posted by The Ryan
Can you clarify your position on this matter? Looking at your post literally, I agree. Christians do in fact observe the Sabbath on Sunday. But you also thereby imply that the Sabbath is on Sunday. Do you in fact hold that opinion?Not everybody defines the Sabbath as the seventh day of the week. It can also be defined as a day of rest and worship. The commandment states that as God created everything in six days then rested on the seventh day, so shall we rest on the seventh day. It doesn't specifically say that day must be Saturday. For the Jewish the Sabbath is Saturday; for the Christian, Sunday; for the Muslim, Friday.

[Dogface]

Among Orthodox Christians (at least in theory), we are to keep both Saturday (still called "Sabbaton" in Greek) and Sunday (Called "Kyriake"--Lord's Day--in Greek) holy. Unfortunately, we tend to observe the practice in the breach, as it were. In any case, we will give Sunday greater precedence as it is the "New Day" for the "New Covenant".

[bibliophage]

Cecil Adams on Why do Christians worship on Sunday when the Bible says the Sabbath is on Saturday? (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_140.html)

[Lithium]

I think that Seventh-day Adventists have Saturday as the Sabath. Remember that the seventh-day adventists believe the pope to be the anti-christ, so they believe that sunday is a day of babylonian worship to Satan.

Here is their conspiracy theory: http://www.biblerevelations.org/sundaylaw/

[Lithium]

Sorry, this was the link that I meant to post above: http://www.biblerevelations.org/sabbath/the_origin_of_sunday_observance.htm

[FriarTed]

during the early days of the Church, when it was predominantly Jewish, it seemed that Christians kept both Sabbath & Sunday. Then as the Gentiles outnumbered the Jews in the Christian Church, gradually Sunday-keeping took precedence over Sabbath-keeping until by the time of Constantine, Sabbath-keeping was regarded as a Judaizing practice (an illegitimate binding of Christians to Jewish law).

I have no problem with Sabbath or Sunday keeping- I think both fulfill the spirit of the Commandment.

[Dogface]

One more detail: The Orthodox Christian ecclesiastical calendar counts days as beginning from the previous sundown, even though many Orthodox faithful prefer to use the civil reckoning of midnight. Technically speaking, for example, Christmas "begins" just as vesperal services on Christmas Eve end.

Also technically speaking, although this is often altered to midnight for pastoral reasons, if one is to be fasting before Communion, one is to begin from Vespers of the previous sundown, not from midnight of the previous night.

[Howard Juneau]

Random observations on this interesting subject:

In the NT, Jesus quite often got in trouble with the religious authorities over the Sabbath (eg, Is it right to heal on the Sabbath?) Jesus declared Himself Lord of the Sabbath, and told us that the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath (or something like that).

Throughout the Gospels, Jesus reiterates each of the Ten Commandments with the notable exception of "remember the Sabbath to keep it holy".

Some Christians see Jesus Himself as the fulfillment of the Sabbath command; that Jesus is the "rest of God".

BTW, thanks for the Trinitarian angle, Polycarp!

[badchad]

Polycarp:

However, the Fourth Commandment is a part of the Mosaic Law, and Christians are free of the Law -- contrary to what some folks who ignore Paul's teaching on this in favor of the extensive Torah material on what one should and should not do would have you believe.

Just curious Polycarp, why do you take Paul at his word here? Isn’t he just a “well-meaning idjit”? You did recently call him that didn’t you:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=189522&perpage=40&pagenumber=5

More on this, why would you follow the teaching of said “well-meaning idjit” over that of the explicit instructions of Jesus himself, who told you were supposed to follow the law:

Matthew 5:18-20
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


While other Christians might interpret things differently it is you who says that where the bible and the teachings of Jesus contradict that you should go with Jesus, making comments like:

“So if you ask me to choose between following Jesus and following the Bible, I'd have to choose Him.”

”Don't put your trust in the Bible. Put it in the God of whom the Bible speaks. And most importantly, put it in Jesus Christ, who was God walking the earth as man, and whose words, whatever else one finds in that volume, can be trusted.”

Can you spin that another way?

Now, to honor God the Holy Trinity, Christians gathered on the Lord's Day, the first day of the week, to celebrate Eucharist, fellowship with one another, and pray together. Because it was the day on which God began Creation, it was the day on which Jesus rose from the dead, and it was the day on which the Spirit descended on the believers. And so it is kept as the day of rest and worship, in honor of Him, because of those three weekly "anniversaries."

I can think of a lot of places in the bible where god said to do that holy stuff on Saturday. I can’t think of any where he said to do them on Sunday instead. Can you? I mean were not talking about eating shellfish here. Were talking about the 10 commandments. THE TEN COMMANDMENTS! Ten simple rules and you can’t even get em right.

Do you ever get tired of coming up with lame rationalizations for incoherently cherry picking the word of god?

[Dogface]

Could somebody point out where in Scripture it states that one is only to consult Scripture?

[badchad]

It follows the verse where it says it's ok to unrepentantly break the word of god?;)

[johnny miles]

http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/sabbath/hebrews4.9.htm

It's worth reading, and I think it provides a great explanation of the Sabbath question.

[badchad]

Shoot guys, it's your god and his rules. Considering the stakes don't you think it unwise to try and your way out of them. Aside from convention do you have any good reason to take such a chance?

[Wandering Agnostic]

In response to badchad's arguments against Polycarp, it is not merely Pauline teaching that made the Christian churches decide to worship on a Sunday. At the Council of Nicea (I believe), it was VOTED upon by the attending church fathers, with the Emperor Constantine there to "guide" them, that Christians would not follow the laws of Moses because the Jews had killed the Savior and were obviously no longer God's chosen people. (Amazing the things you learn when you're doing a research paper on Clerical Celibacy your sophomore year in college)... So the old Mosaic law of Sabbath is sundown Friday to sundown Saturday was tossed out (as were the laws on keeping kosher and many others) and the Christian Holy Day of the week was made Sunday in memory and honor of the Risen Christ.

And no, I do not believe in the whole gobbledygook about the Jews, but that was the reasoning.

[badchad]

Wandering Agnostic:

In response to badchad's arguments against Polycarp, it is not merely Pauline teaching that made the Christian churches decide to worship on a Sunday. At the Council of Nicea (I believe), it was VOTED upon by the attending church fathers, with the Emperor Constantine there to "guide" them, that Christians would not follow the laws of Moses because the Jews had killed the Savior and were obviously no longer God's chosen people.

I don’t doubt it as while Paul said Christians weren’t bound by the law, I don’t recall him saying to worship on Sunday. Of course this still makes no sense because Jesus was supposed to be one and the same as the Jewish god who wrote the Ten Commandments, which he explicitly said to follow. Yet they voted otherwise. :dubious:

They shall all drown in lakes of blood, muahaha.

[Dogface]

Originally posted by badchad
Shoot guys, it's your god and his rules. Considering the stakes don't you think it unwise to try and your way out of them. Aside from convention do you have any good reason to take such a chance?

And what is your point? I've stated already that, for the Orthodox Church, Sabbaton is still to be observed in addition to the new observance on Kyriake.

And once again, since you're so hot on quoting Scripture, where specifically in Scripture does it state that one is to only consult Scripture. Likewise, where in Scripture does it state that we are to specifically ignore the decisions of the Apostles in the Book of Acts where they determine that Christians (at least those who are Gentiles) are only bound by the old Law to the extent that we are to abstain from drinking blood and to avoid sexual immorality?

[Feynn]

"I think that Seventh-day Adventists have Saturday as the Sabbath. Remember that the seventh-day adventists believe the pope to be the anti-christ, so they believe that Sunday is a day of babylonian worship to Satan."

Lithium - Your first thought on adventists is correct... Seventh Day Adventists practice the Sabbath from sundown on Friday to sundown to sundown on Saturday. They do this because the Sabbath just happens to be from sundown on Friday until sundown on Saturday.

People who practice the Sabbath are disturbed when people claim another day to be the Sabbath, especially since the Big G made it a point to have "Keep the Sabbath Holy" engraved on stone tablets and carried down a mountain by Moses.

The rest of your thoughts (bolded) need work as not all Adventists believe that the Pope is the antichrist or that Sunday is a day based on pagan practices.

As an agnostic and a student of theology I find the practices of all religions to be strange... especially if you view them from the perspective of an informed outsider.

I do understand that the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week and that for thousands upon thousands of years, Jews have been keeping it because their god told them to do so.

Muslims also follow the same Sabbath law and in recent times Seventh Day Adventists and SD Baptists have also chosen to practice the Sabbath on the Sabbath, often to the derision of other Christian denominations.

[The Ryan]

bibliophage
[


Originally posted by Dogface
Likewise, where in Scripture does it state that we are to specifically ignore the decisions of the Apostles in the Book of Acts where they determine that Christians (at least those who are Gentiles) are only bound by the old Law to the extent that we are to abstain from drinking blood and to avoid sexual immorality?
If you want to say that Christians aren't bound by the Old Testament, then fine. "We don't have to keep holy the Sabbath" is quite different fro "the Sabbath is now Sunday", however. And

[The Ryan]

And apparently there's a keyboard shortcut for posting one's post that I do not know about. Perhaps I accidently pressed tab enter. Please ignore the above; I'm working on a complete response.

[The Ryan]

bibliophage-
There's a bit of a difference between "Why do Christians worship on Sunday?" and "Why do Christians consider Sunday to be the Sabbath?"

ImNotMad2-
Leaving aside the issue of whether "Keep holy the Sabbath" should have been translated as "Keep holy a Sabbath", Christians often refer to Sunday as the Sabbath, not simply a Sabbath. For instance, a writer to Newsweek claimed that if we are to follow the Old Testament's rule of death to homosexuals, we should also apply the death penalty to those that work on Sunday. I don't understand how soeone could think that when the Old Testaments that those that work on the Sabbath should die, it was referring to Sunday.

dogface-
The problem is that fundamentalist Christians refer to the Old Testament whenever it's convenient. When they want to condemn homosexuality, they quote the Old Testament. And something high on their agenda is getting the Ten Commandments posted anywhere they can. Why are they so adament about posting the Ten Commandments, when they don't even follow them themselves? I realize that logical inconsistencies are not necessarily a problem for Christian fundamentalists, but why would anyone promote a code of conduct which he believes he is not bound by?

[Milum]

The answer to this question is both self-evident and academic.

At the base of our seven-day-week's temporal measurement is our earth's annual journey around the sun. The synchronation of these two time-events has required reajustments since the times of Moses and Jesus that have made our days-of-week determinations out-of-whack.

Our "Sunday" could be "Tuesday" or our "Saturday" could be "Sunday" and so on, depending on the re-alignments that would have had to be made starting a mutually agreed upon date in the however distant past.

Our calendar holds no mystic qualities. The mystery is in the transcendent ideas that the observation of whichever day that we chose, represents.

Words have no fixed meaning. Words only have function.

[badchad]

Dogface:

Originally posted by badchad
Shoot guys, it's your god and his rules. Considering the stakes don't you think it unwise to try and your way out of them. Aside from convention do you have any good reason to take such a chance?

And what is your point? I've stated already that, for the Orthodox Church, Sabbaton is still to be observed in addition to the new observance on Kyriake.

I guess one point would be that only the Orthodox Church members will go to heaven while all those who spend a few hours at the office or gather firewood on Saturday will be doomed right along with me. That will be kind of funny.

And once again, since you're so hot on quoting Scripture, where specifically in Scripture does it state that one is to only consult Scripture.

I think what you are looking for is a place in the bible that says you are allowed to contradict the teachings of Jesus/god. As you read it, Paul gives you that, but I think that should cast some doubts on he said as that would make Jesus’ commands pretty short lived don’t you think. Still I have known Christians who believed a lot dumber things and my not being too familiar with your overall views can’t comment on how well your statements here jive with them or how you decide which parts to take literally.

Polycarp on the other hand, really stuck his foot in his mouth with calling Paul and idjit, and going on and on about how the teachings of Jesus should be followed to exclusion of the rest of the bible and Paul in particular. Yet, then pulls this crap about going to church on Sunday, citing Paul with regards to following the law while contradicting Jesus as I cited above. And yeah, I’m pretty curious to see him try to talk his way out of it.

Likewise, where in Scripture does it state that we are to specifically ignore the decisions of the Apostles in the Book of Acts where they determine that Christians (at least those who are Gentiles) are only bound by the old Law to the extent that we are to abstain from drinking blood and to avoid sexual immorality?

What day did they worship?

[Dogface]

Originally posted by badchad
I guess one point would be that only the Orthodox Church members will go to heaven while all those who spend a few hours at the office or gather firewood on Saturday will be doomed right along with me. That will be kind of funny.

Quote specifically from Orthodox soteriology where this is the doctrine of the Orthodox Church. Or are you yet another liar, yet another fraud? You claim this is Orthodox doctrine? Then back up your claim.

What day did they worship?

As far as can be determined, they held both the Seventh Day and the First Day to be holy.

Now, please back up your slanderous claims about Orthodox doctrine regarding damnation or retract your lie.

[badchad]

Dogface:

Originally posted by badchad
I guess one point would be that only the Orthodox Church members will go to heaven while all those who spend a few hours at the office or gather firewood on Saturday will be doomed right along with me. That will be kind of funny.

Quote specifically from Orthodox soteriology where this is the doctrine of the Orthodox Church. Or are you yet another liar, yet another fraud? You claim this is Orthodox doctrine? Then back up your claim.

Awful defensive don’t you think? I don’t know jack about “Orthodox soteriology” but I have a reasonable comprehension of the bible. Reread what I wrote and you should see that I didn’t make any statements on what is “Orthodox doctrine.” I did make the statement that if they are correct about both Saturday and Sunday needing to be kept holy then it would seem that most Christians who do not keep Saturday holy are repeatedly and unrepentantly breaking the forth commandment, in which the god in question was quite clear about it being a big deal to him, punishable by death and ranked above thou shalt not kill. Whether the Orthodox Church members are smart enough to follow the above mentioned beliefs (that you cited) through to their logical conclusion is a wholly different matter.

As far as can be determined, they held both the Seventh Day and the First Day to be holy.

Do you have any cites (verses) which clearly indicate that the 1st day is to be systematically to be kept holy?

Now, please back up your slanderous claims about Orthodox doctrine regarding damnation or retract your lie.

Dogface are you angry because you are “Orthodox” and think I am misrepresenting your position or are you of the default variety of Christian who would be angered because you don’t want to be damned for systematically breaking the 10 commandments for no good reason?