Don't Indulge Next to Me, Please

Ok, first of all, let me say that I don't care whether pot or alcohol or even cigarettes are legal or not. I don't care, I don't care, I don't care.
I do not indulge. It's my choice, and nobody has ever questioned me or tried to talk me into it (except in France, they just thought I was a freak of nature.)
I do not like people to indulge around me (that is, drink alcohol or take any form of drug, even pot). I have also been known to ask someone to put out a cigarette, because, even though it doesn't bother me, I have friends who are allergic and who don't have the courage to ask for themselves. I am not trying to tell people what to do, but I insist that if they are going to, they must do it somewhere else.
The problem is, I feel this is my right (even if I am in someone else's home, and it is the homeowner that is indulging -- this has only come up twice, when I was staying with some friends and once they smoked hash, the other time they tripped on acid. Both times I strongly objected, and actually caused a scene. I feel that as a guest, my wishes should be respected.), and everybody else seems to feel that I am being a nuisance.
The only person I have asked not indulge even when I am not around is my boyfriend, because one day I want to be able to tell my kids, "Neither Daddy nor I indulge. It is not an inherent part of life, and you don't need to either."
Okay, now that I have thoroughly explained my point of view, I'd like to know. Am I being a jerk?

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The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
-- Henry David Thoreau

In my opinion as a non-smoker, drinker, etc, You have absolutely every right to ask them not to indulge around you and you shouldn't been seen as a jerk. However, you are going to, merely because people feel that they have the right to do whatever they want, whenever they want because "it's a free country" You have no idea how many times I have heard that quote in reference to doing something that offends people. Smokers especially believe that they should be able to smoke wherever and whenever and any study that they can find negating the effects of second hand smoke is widely touted. So overall, you're not being a jerk, but people are going to see you that way for taking away from what they feel they are entitled to.

No, you're not being a jerk, because you have every right to voice your opinions, but in response to:

"The problem is, I feel this is my right (even if I am in someone else's home, and it is the homeowner that is indulging -- this has only come up twice, when I was staying with some friends and once they smoked hash, the other time they tripped on acid. Both times I strongly objected, and actually caused a scene. I feel that as a guest, my wishes should be respected.)"

The thing is, as a guest, you should be the one respecting wishes. Now, obviously, you shouldn't be forced into partaking WITH your hosts, but since it is their home, they decide what is acceptable and what isn't. If you don't like it, either leave the room, or if possible, leave the house altogether and don't stay there again. You can always talk to them later about it, and in a mature fashion, let them know that it bothered you very much and you would appreciate it if they would refrain from such behaviour around you in the future. In YOUR home, they would have to respect your rules, whether that meant something as major as "no drugs" or something as small as "everyone rinses their own dinner plate".

That said, you have to keep in mind that lots of people "indulge"... some occasionally, some regularly, and no amount of arguing over whose rights are more important will change that. (Least, none thus far.) It is very admirable of you to to abstain from using tobacco, alcohol and other drugs, but remember that there are many people who strongly believe in "my body, my choice". Throwing fits when you
could just as easily leave, or when a person is within the boundaries of an "indulgence zone" (i.e. cigarettes in the smoking section, drinking in a bar or at a party where alcohol is being served) is an unnecessary waste of your time and energy.

I do think you are within your rights to ask people around you to refrain from things that bother you, especially when you do it in defense of others. However, I'm not sure that applies when you are visiting in the homes of those who indulge. I think I would limit those protests to the things that are actually illegal, since those could get you into just as much trouble as the users.

I can understand where you're coming from. I have similar morals but I'm less bold about it. If someone is in my house or car, they go by my rules. If I'm in their house, though, I either live with it or leave.

I am allergic to cigarette smoke so I can't be in enclosed spaces for too long with it or I'll end up with a migraine and, possibly, throw up. Because of this, I will politely ask someone not to smoke in a car with me. In larger rooms, though, it's not as bad. When I go to a club, I just make sure to take 2 Advil beforehand.

I don't think insisting on certain limits in your own home is out of line. In someone else's home though is another story. I think it would just be better to avoid the situation or leave if it's possible.

I don't smoke, drink, or do any illicit drugs because they have consequences I don't want to deal with. I have other "sinful" habits tho...mostly the "living in sin with the boyfriend" kind and I quite enjoy those :). I don't care what other people do in their own homes.

I think in your own home you have the right to set the rules, as it were. There is no smoking in my home, but I do provide a side porch and an ashtray for those who do smoke (hi Jeff! Hi Ty! :)).

In someone else's home I'm with you on two of three, although I agree with much of what the other posters have said. As far as something that is illegal, I think you have the right to make your views known, 'cause if the cops show up you are just as busted as your buddies are, and if they are good friends they should accept that you aren't willing to take that risk. As for smoking, that's a tougher question. When I was pregnant I was annoyed with my sister for smoking next to me at the table in her own home, because she knew that I hated it and that it made me feel sick. However, in non-pregnant times, when it is simply something that annoys me and I can avoid it most times (bearing in mind I only see her once every other year), I don't say anything. She's been smoking for more than 30 years (she's LOTS older than I am! ;)), and she's not gonna be stopping anytime soon.

As far as drinking alcohol, I disagree with you. Understand I am not talking about getting drunk and passing out, but simply having a couple of glasses of wine, cocktails, or beer. No one says you have to offer it in your own home, or accept in in someone else's, but I think that it is frankly none of your business if someone is drinking socially in their own home, even if you are present. It's not something that will get you busted or affect your health, so MYOB, as Ann Landers would say.

-Melin

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Phenomenal woman
Bitch Corporate Lawyer
That's me

ChrisCTP writes:
The thing is, as a guest, you should be the one respecting wishes.

--Tony Randall once said that if you were a guest in his home he would offer you cigarettes. He would hope you wouldn't accept...but he would offer.
The host should make the guest feel at ease.

Little clarification:
I certainly wouldn't impose upon somebody at a bar or a wedding, even. I don't expect to impose a thirty-foot no drugs/alcohol zone around myself. I do ask close friends not to indulge in anything *illegal* even at clubs, etc, however, because I expect them to respect my feelings. Perhaps you should understand that my father was an alcoholic, a drug addict, a wife-beater, and he recently died of Tuberculosis which he contracted from sharing needles. My friends know this (I'm fairly open about it) and know that I consequently view all drugs and alcohol as forms of poison. That is why I expect them to understand my feelings and not indulge around me. They know how much it hurts me. If you don't really know me well, and you aren't doing anything illegal, I don't usually say anything.
As for being at someone else's home, one of those times I could not leave. I was in a foreign country where I did not speak the language and did not know my way around. That was the time they were smoking hash, and I did not want to have to breathe the smoke that was filling the entire apartment. Their response was something along the line of f*** you. So I threw a fit. Maybe not sweet, but effective. The other time was in the home of a very good friend who I expected to understand and respect my feelings as a friend. Both times, BTW, these people were taking illegal drugs, so I did feel I had a right to protest.
As for smoking, well, if my friend is coughing and getting physically ill from your cigarette, you need to put it out. It may not be the law, but it is certainly the right thing to do.

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The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
-- Henry David Thoreau

Since the French and cigarettes were mentioned in passing, and this is MPSIMS...

I've only ever met one Frenchman personally-- that I know of, anyway. This guy was an exchange student, in the country for maybe a month, and had started dating a friend of my GF. At the party where I met him, he kept trying to make her smoke with him. At one point, he waited until she was facing someone else, then actually stuck a cigarette into her mouth while she was talking.

At the time I just thought he was a jerk, but Cessandra's remark seems to indicate that smoking is a cultural thing there. What gives?

Time for an "indulger" to speak up. (This might surprise you.):

One of the great idiotic things that I've done in my life was to get addicted to nicotine. I'm still wanting to quit, but I do enjoy the fact that I'm better able to keep calm and levelheaded when I smoke.

OTOH, I understand that cigarette smoke is very unpleasant for many people. I also understand its harmful effects on health. Because of this, I *do not* believe I have a right to smoke anywhere I want to. I am perfectly willing to put out a cigarette if it's bothering someone. If I'm around a pregnant woman, a minor, or someone with breathing problems, the pack stays in my pocket.

That said... It does absolutely no good to bully people into non-indulgence. Most people will respond with something like, "If you don't like it, why are you here?" If you go to a party at the house where someone drinks, expect there to be drinking. If you go visit a friend who smokes, expect them to smoke.

In short, Cessandra, if you are so strong in your feelings about indulgence, why hang around with these people? Life's too short. You will be doing them more good if they understand their continued indulgence will deprive them of your company. Peer pressure works both ways.

You are going to drive yourself bananas if you try to change the people around you. You don't have the power to make that happen. Not even with your boyfriend. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if your boyfriend has a problem (that is if he hasn't quit indulging after your request) you're better off without him. If you hang around, you'll only drive yourself crazy.

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Carpe hoc!

Actually I was referring to drinking. I had this one girl practically try to pour a bottle of champagne down my throat, and my friend's mother was very insulted that I wouldn't have wine with dinner. I noticed alot of smoking, but nobody tried to force that on me. France's laws and social mores about drinking/smoking/drugs are very different from the US. Drinking and smoking are very common among teenagers (and I don't care what anybody says, they get just as plastered as American kids). There is no public awareness of the possible dangers to your health, and nobody even thinks of second-hand smoke. Most drugs are illegal, but nobody cares. And not in the same way that nobody cares here. You can smoke pot on the side of the road by a police station and they won't care. It's very strange (to me).

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The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
-- Henry David Thoreau

MrKnowItAll:

Don't worry, when people intentionally disregard my feelings about this, I stop hanging around them. I've just had too many remarks about how I've got a stick up my @$$, and I wanted to know if it's true. Especially since many of these come from my best friend who, though she doesn't like people drinking at her house, feels I am very rude when I tell them not to bring alcohol to her home. She gets mad at them for it, doesn't tell them, bitches to me, and then yells at me when I tell her "guests" to take the bottle someplace else. Not to metnion that these guests are underage. BTW, my boyfriend doesn't have a problem. He stopped drinking, not because I asked him to, but because I'd once mentioned that it bothered me. He's since told me that he's glad he stopped, because he'd been getting a bit carried away with it (he's of age).


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The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
-- Henry David Thoreau

It seems the world revolves around you, Cessandra. I think the responses have been to kind and you are going to have a hard time getting the world to toe the line in your presence. I wonder how you find yourself in these situations you seem to detest.I am not trying to tell people what to do, but I insist that if they are going to, they must do it somewhere else.

You are telling people what to do no matter how you look at it. Telling people what to do takes a little discrimination. I sense that you have gotten away with it on occassion because of the age and experience of your tormentors.I expect them to respect my feelings

I have always found that respect is better earned than expected. 'Feelings' are such personal and nebulous things it is hard to demand respect for all of them. I keep a lot of them to myself where they belong and share some of them only with trusting friends who I hope do respect me.If you don't really know me well, and you aren't doing anything illegal, I don't usually say anything.
How magnanimous of you!when people intentionally disregard my feelings about this, I stop hanging around them
As you should. It would be the considerate thing to do.

Sounds like your trip to France didn't go over well. I travel a lot. It has taught me that life is not Burger King and I can't always have it my way. For everybody that asserted Cessandra's consitutional right to express her opinion my hat is off to you for your defense of free speech. I look forward to the next lesson on the rules of etiquette of giving an opinion...or are there any?

Why are you hanging out in the houses of those people if you dissaprove of what they are doing? :( Just say something like "I don't want to get into trouble." If they don't put the drugs away, leave. Illegal or not it is someone else's house. You are not in charge.

In indoor public areas, you have the absolute right to ask people not to smoke. I make a habit of asking people near me if they mind before I light up. I put my cancer sticks out on request, or I go stand outside. You are not being a jerk at all about the cigarettes. You are protecting your lungs, and your friends' lungs.

I smoke and drink on occasion. I am polite and ask if it will bother anyone before I light up. I don't smoke in non-smokers cars or homes, but in my house... my rules.

You don't like it... don't come over. I don't force anyone in my door, all are welcome as long as they follow my rules. I don't smoke inside, I have a lovely patio and everyone smokes out there. I keep lots of different kinds of beverages in my home, both alcoholic and non. I will do everything in my power to accomodate everyone and specially blend virgin drinks as well as prepare vegeterian snacks for my non-meat eating friends. I consider myself to be a very good hostess, but never forget, it is my house.
I can understand you have issues with drinking and drugs because of your past, but everyone has issues. They are yours to deal with. I have issues with old men and very young girls. My issues, my views, my problems. It would be very rude of me to enforce my beliefs on someone else.
"Hey, you can't date her around me."
Who the hell am I to tell you what to do?

I don't mean to sound insensitive, and forgive me if it comes out too harshly, but you asked if you were being a jerk... the only thing I can say is, if you behaved that way in my home, you wouldn't have to worry about it happening again, because you wouldn't be invited back... and your stay the first time would probably be a very short one.

This is a tough question.

Hopefully, among your friends, it's a matter of respect. If you ask them to please not smoke (etc.) around you, then they shouldn't out of respect. I would never light up or drink around a friend who asked me not to.

On the other hand, you have no real right to tell anyone what they can or can't do in their own homes. If they respect you enough to comply with your wishes, that's great. If not, then your only recourse is to leave.

Your Quadell

mrknowitall
I'm still wanting to quit, but I do enjoy the fact that I'm better able to keep calm and levelheaded when I smoke.
is there nobody that loves you, nobody that you love enough to see grow up/old?
quit man, get some help...for christ sake, do it today! it CAN happen to you.my mom was supposed to see my kids grow up, get married, etc,nevermind, none of my business, smoke your brains out, not my problem, what a waste.

Geez, Cess, is there anything you don't complain about? I can understand you not wanting to be around smoke (pot or cigarettes), but why do you care if someone is having a drink in your presence? What possible harm can that do you? And what in god's name makes you think you have a right (as you said) to tell people not to have a drink in their own home?

Sheesh!

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"I think it would be a great idea" Mohandas Ghandi's answer when asked what he thought of Western civilization

I think the posts so far have very clearly marked the line between reasonable and jerk. I have just recently quit smoking, so that it's still hard to encounter people who are smoking. I stay out of bars and such, but I can't stay home all the time - and I remember being dissed by non-smokers when I was making a good effort to avoid inconveniencing them. I don't want to become that, since I am clearly aware of how difficult it is to quit.

The OP reminded me of people I've encountered and thought went too far. Example: I am at a bus stop. I am standing well away and down-wind from other people waiting. I am smoking. Someone joins the group and chooses to stand next to me (when there is plenty of room and much of it closer to where the bus will actually stop.) That same person makes faces and waves a hand in front of herself, making clear they disapprove. My response #1: I made a good faith effort, at some inconvenience to myself (farther from the stop, outside the shelter) to avoid bothering anyone. #2: The person who objects has more options to make themselves happy than I do... any farther and I will be out in the street. #3: Who died and made them God? Who gave them the right to judge someone they don't even know?

There are other examples, in the same vein. I KNOW I made good effort. I never smoked in anyone's car or home... I never even asked. If non-smokers were in my home, especially those with small children, I would avoid smoking as much as possible. Now that I am in the process of learning to live without nicotine, I am making every effort not to use it as an excuse for whining. I think everyone has the right to make clear what they would prefer... but there's a huge difference between voicing opinions and dictating\judging behavior. It would be nice if we could control our world so that none of our tender points were ever touched... but my life hasn't been like that and I don't expect it will.

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You can only be a victim once. After that you're just a volunteer.

Naomi Judd

Cess, glad to here about your boyfriend. Sounds like a good catch.

kelli, thanks for your concern. I do think about these things (otherwise I wouldn't even consider quitting). I have recently starting working as an assistant for a high school band, and the fact that I could influence these kids (after all, teenagers are very easily influenced} is extra motivation.

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Carpe hoc!

I mean "hear about you boyfriend", not "here".

I agree that in your home, what you say goes. But in someone else's home, it's his or her call (not just about the things you mentioned - guests are always free to leave). What I can't believe was that you "caused a scene" during someone's acid trip and YOU aren't having flashbacks (joke).
I have two toddlers myself, and while I'd like to believe they'll never try the things I have tried, I know that realistically, it's not probable. My mom is about as pure as they come, and my sister and I indulged, indulged, indulged. I just hope that my kids will grow out of whatever phases they grow into.

[[Ok, first of all, let me say that I don't care whether pot or alcohol or even cigarettes are legal or not. I don't care, I don't care, I don't care.
I do not indulge. It's my choice, and nobody has ever questioned me or tried to talk me into it (except in France, they just thought I was a freak of nature.)
I do not like people to indulge around me (that is, drink alcohol or take any form of drug, even pot). I have also been known to ask someone to put out a cigarette, because, even though it doesn't bother me, I have friends who are allergic and who don't have the courage to ask for themselves. I am not trying to tell people what to do, but I insist that if they are going to, they must do it somewhere else.
The problem is, I feel this is my right (even if I am in someone else's home, and it is the homeowner that is indulging -- this has only come up twice, when I was staying with some friends and once they smoked hash, the other time they tripped on acid. Both times I strongly objected, and actually caused a scene. I feel that as a guest, my wishes should be respected.), and everybody else seems to feel that I am being a nuisance. ]] Cessandra


Ifr you or others are sensitive to smoke, that is one thing. Regarding everything else, though, you're being a pain in the ass and nobody should feel much need to "respect" such patently unreasonable "feelings" in most cases.

[[I do ask close friends not to indulge in anything *illegal* even at clubs, etc, however, because I expect them to respect my feelings. Perhaps you should understand that my father was an alcoholic, a drug addict, a wife-beater, and he recently died of Tuberculosis which he contracted from sharing needles. My friends know this (I'm fairly open about it) and know that I consequently view all drugs and alcohol as forms of poison. That is why I expect them to understand my feelings and not indulge around me. They know how much it hurts me.]]


While it's nice of your friends to cater to you, you need to remember that you're the one with the problem, so ultimately you need to be the primary one dealing with this discomfort, since the indulgence of others is actually doing you no real harm at all.


[[ If you don't really know me well, and you aren't doing anything illegal, I don't usually say anything.]]


If they don't know you AND it's not illegal (e.g., pot), THEN you USUALLY won't say anything. Gee, that's mighty white of you. <g>

ok, I get it. I'm an asshole. I'm sorry. I'll stop.

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The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
-- Henry David Thoreau

Especially since many of these come from my best friend who, though she doesn't like people drinking at her house, feels I am very rude when I tell them not to bring alcohol to her home. She gets mad at them for it, doesn't tell them, bitches to me, and then yells at me when I tell her "guests" to take the bottle someplace else.

As you may realize, you are behaving as an enabler in this situation. Tell your friend to either complain to the drinkers or not (it might help her to express her views if she knows if they get drunk at her house, any damage they do later gets her in BIG trouble) but to stop complaining to you. (Hey, as long as you're being frank with people....)

Cassandra-
It is people like you that really tick me off. You think you're so high and mighty and that anybody who does something you don't like is just WRONG. Well, guess what. Some people like to drink, and some people smoke a little pot. I'm not hurting you so you need to take your prissy snobbery and just go someplace else. If you don't like it, don't hang around.

Woah-oh, folks. Everybody stop and take a deep breath, okay, and calm down. This is MPSIMS; I brag to all the other moderators about how nice we all are to each other heree, no controversy, etc. I never have to do any work here!

Cessandra is young (she'll dispute that on another thread! ;)), and she is still checking out her ways of responding to things. The fact that she was aware enough to make her post and to ask if she was being a jerk is enough of a sign that she is trying to find out what's what that we should at least cut her some slack, even when we think her approach (telling others what not to do) is wrong. And she has come out and said already that she understands that, apparently, she HAS been being a jerk. So instead of running her down and calling her names, let's appreciate the fact that she was concerned enough to ask the question, and maybe she's learned something here.

My dad always said you catch more flies with honey that you do with vinegar. Vinegar goes well in barbeque sauce, so if anybody has any more of it to share, please take it to the Pit.

-Melin
Board-Goddess-In-Training

You know what? I've changed my mind. I don't understand how I'm being a jerk. Let's look at this from a different angle:

Say Mary and Johhny are friends. Johnny has a habit that really bugs Mary (say it's something trivial like popping his gum or picking his nose in public, or even cussing). Mary asks Johnny to please not do that around her, because it really bothers her; it's her pet peeve. Johnny tells her to f*** off, and then tells all his friends how Mary's got a stick up her @$$.

How exactly is Mary being a jerk in this situation? Oh my gawd, she asked a friend to not do something that bugged her! How awful!
This is almost the exact situation that has repeated itself several times between me and many different "friends" (the only difference being that "Johhny" was drinking or smoking out, both of which are illegal considering that all of my friends are minors.)
I have only asked my friends to respect my feelings, and the only time I threw a fit was when I had no recourse but to breathe the hash-smoke caused by supposed friends who were already complaining that I was a b**** just because I'd asked them to put it out.
Yes, I've asked close friends to not drink alcohol in their own homes, but these were people that I considered close friends, people I would have gladly done the same for (in fact I have several friends who do not like cussing, and I gladly watch my tongue for them, simply because I like and respect them.)
I really do not understand why this makes me an asshole.

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The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
-- Henry David Thoreau

Cessandra.
Tobacco smoke--a considerate person should put out a cigarette if you tell them it's bothering you.
Hash smoke--Hash is not legal and if your group is busted you will be considered just as guilty as they are. If you do not like hash smoke it would be a good idea to remove yourself from that group as quickly as possible and really, really not go back.

The way i see it:

1. In your own house, YOU set the rules. If you want there to be no smoking or drinking, then there will be none, and you have the right to ask people to leave if they insist on doing it. Your home is your castle.

2. Conversely, in somebody ELSE's house, THEY set the rules. If they say smoking and drinking is OK, then it is, and if you don't like that, well, you're free to leave if you want.

3. In public places, it depends. If what somebody is doing is not causing you any harm (maybe they're having wine with dinner), then it's none of your business. You are free to disagree with their actions, but they're also free to ignore your opinion on the matter. OTOH, smoking is a slightly different issue, since it can affect more than just the smoker him or herself. But, clearly there IS some precident for being able to do things that cause small amounts of harm to other people. For instance, you can drive a car, even though it contributes to air pollution and there are people who would prefer you not. So I'm not sure where the line is drawn here.

For smoking, I think a polite smoker will try not to smoke near people it bothers, and a polite non-smoker will opt to move away if that's an option rather than ask the smoker to quit. But it's not always an option, so in that case i tend to side with the non-smoker. But I also think it's become "Fasionable" to bash smokers and some people go out of their way to do that even when they could easily avoid the situation.

I don't indulge in either smoking, or alcohol, or pot, or any other harder drug, but my opinion on THAT is that people should be free to do anything that doesn't directly harm somebody else. OTOH, I also believe people should be responsible for their own actions, so if you smoke and get lung cancer, don't expect the public to pay for your medical bills, and if you do crack and screw up your brain, don't expect public handouts when you can't keep your job. But if you can use responsibly, then I don't think it's anyone else's business, and I don't think such "victimless" crimes should be illegal. I'm willing to let people fall to any depths whatsoever if it's of their own free doing, and I don't think anyone should ever be "protected from themselves."

--
peas on earth

[[Say Mary and Johhny are friends. Johnny has a habit that really bugs Mary (say it's something trivial like popping his gum or picking his nose in public, or even cussing). Mary asks Johnny to please not do that around her, because it really bothers her; it's her pet peeve. Johnny tells her to f*** off, and then tells all his friends how Mary's got a stick up her @$$.]] Cessandra


Or Johnny could politely explain to her why she is being unreasonable.


[[How exactly is Mary being a jerk in this situation? Oh my gawd, she asked a friend to not do something that bugged her! How awful!]]


Well, it is kind of obnoxious to be making unreasonable demands on people.

Mary and Johnny are friends. Mary has a habit of trying to control Johnny by telling him what to do, and what not to do. Johnny has repeatedly told Mary that it bothers him when she tries to control his behavior and he does not appreciate any whining and bitching in his presence.
Why won't Mary stop trying to change Johnny?
Can't she see that by not honoring his wishes she is disrespecting his feelings? What kind of a friend is Mary to always cause a scene when things don't go her way?
Poor Johnny... how do we get him to realize that he should STOP HANGING AROUND WITH MARY IF HE DOESN'T LIKE BEING WITH HER!!!!!

Cess,
People have many facets and are always changing. If your friends smoke weed and drink all the time and this bothers you, maybe it's time to find new friends. Were these people always your friends? Have they all changed? Or is it you that is changing? There is nothing wrong with growing away from old friends. We can't be the same people we have always been. It is called growing up. We all do it at different rates, some people never do.
If you have a serious problem accepting the behavior of other people you CAN'T CHANGE THEM, you can only change yourself. Go out meet new people, (who don't drink, smoke, or do drugs) have fun. It may seem harsh but the world DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND YOU!!!
The only choice you have regarding the behavior of other people is 1) Accept that you can't control them and have fun with them while not participateing in any drinking/drugs. Maybe you could be the designated driver.
2) Not participate and try unsuccesfully to control them by bitching, thereby ruining your fun and annoying them so that you become the whiny bitch that gets talked about behind her back and everyone hates. 3) Don't go around if they are going to party. You can ask if they are going to partake before commiting to a planned outing.
I can gaurantee you, people know when they are going to drink and smoke in advance.
Have you tried this?
You: Hey, before I commit to going to X place with you tonight.. is there going to be any smoking/drinking?
Friend: Yes!!!
You: Thanks but I think I'll go somewhere else. You know it makes me uncomfortable.

You have maintained control of the situation by modifying your reactions. You have made a conscious choice to NOT place yourself in an uncomfortable situation. This takes guts Cessandra, it means you have to choose to miss out on some possible fun, and stand up for yourself in the only way that you can, by not showing up. Badgering and nagging people does not make them change, it only makes both parties resentful towards each other. You will lose these people as friends one way or the other. Bow out gracefully Cess...or just learn to chill out and save yourself some heartache.

Seriously kid, life it too short to stress over things we can't change. You survived the prayer at graduation didn't you?

Yes, you're being a jerk. The reason you can't see it is because you are too self absorbed to care about anyone else but yourself. In other words...a jerk!

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"If you stick your finger in a pie, whatever is in the pie will be on your finger, and whatever is on your finger will be in the pie...unless you wear a rubber glove"----some demented old lady

Reading this thread has made me feel really sad. You people have no sense of courtesy for your friends. I'm not asking for a law here, I'm asking that people that supposedly care about me act like they do. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with respecting your friends' feelings? I would never intentionally do something that I knew would seriously bother or potentially hurt one of my friends, and they do know how much seeing them slowly poison themselves hurts me (and they are poisoning themselves, there's nothing like a 17-year-old alcoholic).
I picked my friends based on that most of them had the same feelings as I do about alcohol and other drugs, but recently they seem to have changed their collective minds. I tried to help one friend, who is seriously over the edge, but he's now off somewhere in Montrose giving blow-jobs for money. I can see that they don't want to be helped. So what's wrong with asking that they not make me witness this self-destruction of people I care about, at least until I can bear to leave them behind to their own devices?
It was hard for me to see at first, that my friends no longer care about me as I care for them, that they consistently treat me in ways I would never treat them. I see that, now. But it makes me really sad to see that you would all treat your friends the same way, not caring if you hurt them, because, hey, it's a free country and you can do whatever you want.
Maybe that's what is wrong with this country, the idea that you don't have to care about anyone else. And if they get upset that you are intentionally hurting their feelings (how terrible! how dare they be upset with you!) you can just call them a selfish prick for ruining your fun.
What a lovely way to live.

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The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
-- Henry David Thoreau

Dear Cess., Some people just don't want to be helped and there's nothing you can do. You can pick up the pieces, perhaps, after they give themselves cancer or liver failure--if they'll let you. But sometimes you just have to let people destroy themselves, slowly or quickly. "Smart people don't need advice, stupid people won't take it."

As far as smoking, I have a slightly different problem--new downstairs neighbors just moved in, and they smoke like fiends. So my whole apartment smells like an ashtray and my eyes sting. I am totally at a loss here, there's nothing I can do. If they won't stop smoking for their (premature!) newborn, they sure won't stop for a total stranger. But when I move (which may be soon!), I will have it written into my lease that no smokers are to live below me. If they won't sign, I won't move in . . .

Wow, that's really kind of scary, Flora. If they're smoking enough to bother you in another apartment, they must be doing some damage to that baby! I've read so many news stories and article in Reader's Digest of kids with health problems which the doctor's think may have been cause by the parents smoking. It's really sad that they don't consider the effect they may be having on their own child. :(

Hey, Cessandra, what if your friends had once asked you not to fuck a different man every night for six months because it bothered them?

I'm the most militant anti-smoker you could ever meet, but it would take me centuries and thousands of testosterone injections to grow balls big enough to tell someone they couldn't smoke in their own fucking house! You know what I do to avoid smoke? I don't hang around with smokers or frequent places that smokers frequent or that don't have a nonsmoking section. Real difficult, huh?

OK, this has gotten to be a pretty long thread, so if I am repeating a bunch of stuff that has already been said, just ignore me! :)

Cess, I don't think anyone here is saying that you aren't supposed to care for your friends, or that you shouldn't help them with their problems. Nor is anyone saying that your friends shouldn't try to be respectful of your feelings either. However, there are right ways to go about these situations and there are wrong ways. Unfortuantely, you seem to be going about things in the wrong way. In your posts, at least to me, you come across as sounding somewhat preachy and holier than thou. Confronting people in the manner you do would put most of us on the defensive. I think that is why so many people have reacted so strongly to this thread, even people who (like myself) don't smoke, drink or do drugs. The people who have told you to remove yourself from the situations that make you uncomfortable are on the right track. I do it all the time. A few of my friends are on the wild side. If they ask me to go to dinner and a movie, I go and have a great time. If they invite me bar hopping in Ybor City (sort of like a mini Burbon Street in New Orleans), I decline. I don't like to be in large crowds of drunken people, so I just don't go. Granted none of my friends are hard core alcoholics or drug abusers, and it sounds as if some of your friends are heading that way. Still, I have to say that it is not your place to try to save them from themselves. As a friend, you can be there to offer them advice IF they ask for it, you can be there to help comfort them in times of need, but you cannot tell them what to do. They may be making the biggest mistakes of their lives by doing what they do, but ultimately it is their lives, and they have to figure out what is right or wrong for themselves.

Anyway, just my two cents. I don't think you are a bad person for what you are trying to do, Cess, just a little misguided.

I confess that I find some irony in the fact that this is the same woman who couldn't accomodate those around her who wanted a prayer at graduation, even if it was done in a manner so as not to violate the Establishment Clause.

Person's got a right to smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol in their own homes (and there's no law against a minor DRINKING alcohol; the law is against them buying it). You don't like it? Nobody's forcing you to be there.

-Melin

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Phenomenal woman
Bitch Corporate Lawyer
That's me

"You people have no sense of courtesy for your friends. I'm not asking for a law here, I'm asking that people that supposedly care about me act like they do."

Courtesy goes both ways, Cess. What's more rude - someone engaging in a legal activity that doesn't harm anyone else (like having a drink if they're of age) or someone trying to control another person's behavior?

There is a difference between caring for other people and trying to run their lives to suit your own tastes.

You have some understandably powerful issues regarding what happened with your father, but Cess, not everyone that smokes tobacco or pot or has the occasional drink is going to become an addicted, wife-beating, tuberculosis ridden loss.

Here's a rule of thumb I'd like you to try out:

- does someone else's activity put you in physical danger? (They're smoking near you and you have asthma. They've been drinking and insist on driving.) If yes, then you have the right to *insist* that they stop. If they don't, you have the right to throw a fit.

- does someone else's activity break your rules when both of you are on your territory? (At your house or in your car). If yes, then you may *insist* that they stop, and if they refuse, they get to leave.

- is someone else's activity bothering you in a public place or a private place that belongs to neither of you? Then you get to explain that it bothers you, why it bothers you and ask them once - ONCE - to desist. If they do, then they respect your feelings. If they don't, then they don't and you need to decide not to be around them anymore.

- is someone else's activity bothering you when you're in their place (their home or car)? Then you get to explain that it bothers you and why. They will desist or not, their choice. And you may draw your conclusions about their character/friendship/respect for your feelings on your own.

Try it, Cess, just for a little while, please. I think it's a fair way to do things because it goes both ways.

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"Knowing others is wisdom. Knowing yourself is enlightenment." - Lao-tzu, Chinese philosopher

Cess, I'm about to say something that's going to piss you off, but good. I know that you'll be miffed, because if someone would have said this to me when I was 17, I would have been pissed about it myself. So here it is:

People like your friends are one MAJOR reason that Byron and I stopped going to Rocky. It starts off innocently (woohoo, transvestites, cult classic, rebellion, blahblahblah) and then the new, "pure" crowd starts mixing with the old seniors and suddenly, the integrity of the whole ship is corrupted.

I'm not saying that Rocky Horror, as a movie is to blame for increased "indulgence" in underaged people. There is something to it, as a fed-up "senior" I know what I'm talking about, but I fail to find the words to explain it for any of the people who've never been or never gotten into it. Suffice it to say, everything you do influences you. If you are resistant to the changes that have occurred in your friends, you can count on one of two things:
1) They'll get sick of you and won't be so accommodating anymore, thereby pushing you out of the "circle".
2) You'll get fed up enough to extract yourself from the circle.

It's a little off-topic, I know, but I felt it needed to be said. I maintain what I said in my first response up near the top, and reading through this thread it seems that "indulgers" and "non-indulgers" alike agree: Your house, your rules. Someone else's house, their rules. I understand that in that particular instance you were far away from home and had nowhere else to go, but for general purpose, from now on, live and let live. If you don't like the goings-on, leave. If the goings-on are consistently to your disliking, then it really is time to take up with a new crowd, because the crowd you run with has made it obvious that they're not going to change in order to please you. And you really shouldn't expect them to do so. Regardless of whether it's healthy or legal or NOT, what they put into their bodies is entirely their choice. As far as I'm concerned, it's high time (no pun intended) that you stop worrying about what other people are doing and start concentrating on what you're doing. I know you just graduated high school, concentrate on whatever your plans are now (college, travel, work, whatever) and take sometime to be completely self-involved (NOT self-centered.)

--Chris
(smoker, extraordinarily occasional social drinker, non-indulger in illegal drugs)

[Hyeresy]

Originally posted by Cessandra:
Ok, first of all, let me say that I don't care whether pot or alcohol or even cigarettes are legal or not. I don't care, I don't care, I don't care.
I do not indulge. It's my choice, and nobody has ever questioned me or tried to talk me into it (except in France, they just thought I was a freak of nature.)
I do not like people to indulge around me (that is, drink alcohol or take any form of drug, even pot). I have also been known to ask someone to put out a cigarette, because, even though it doesn't bother me, I have friends who are allergic and who don't have the courage to ask for themselves. I am not trying to tell people what to do, but I insist that if they are going to, they must do it somewhere else.
The problem is, I feel this is my right (even if I am in someone else's home, and it is the homeowner that is indulging -- this has only come up twice, when I was staying with some friends and once they smoked hash, the other time they tripped on acid. Both times I strongly objected, and actually caused a scene. I feel that as a guest, my wishes should be respected.), and everybody else seems to feel that I am being a nuisance.
The only person I have asked not indulge even when I am not around is my boyfriend, because one day I want to be able to tell my kids, "Neither Daddy nor I indulge. It is not an inherent part of life, and you don't need to either."
Okay, now that I have thoroughly explained my point of view, I'd like to know. Am I being a jerk?



If you don't put yourself in the situation, you won't have to worry about people "indulging" around you. Simple explanation to a simple answer. Oh yeah, wanna smoke a bowl?

[BoBettie]

Wow, it only took 8 months to come up with that snappy reply?
Talk about a blast from the past (seeing that thread again)
Zette

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"If I had to live your life, I'd be begging to have someone pop out both my eyes. Just in case I came across a mirror." - android209 (in the Pit)
Zettecity (http://www.angelfire.com/ny3/zettecity/index.html)
Voted "Most Empathetic"- can you believe that?