Vegetarian boxed lunch is a LIE!

[prisoner6655321]

Damn blasted stupid carnivorous deli-workers! If you are preparing a vegetarian boxed lunch, DON'T PUT A HARD-BOILED EGG IN IT!!!! DUH! If you don't know that the vegetarian isn't a vegan, then play it safe and make the lunch vegan! How stupid do you have to be! And mayonnaise is whipped eggs!!!! Stupid! Geeze. Preparing a vegan meal really isn't hard at all. No meat, no dairy, no eggs, no mayo, no gelatin, no spread that might have eggs, gelatin, meat, or dairy... like ranch dressing. EASY! If your livelihood is preparing food then YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS!!!!! Why do waiters all know this and deli workers do not. Deli workers have vegetarians breathing over their sneeze guards making sure they don't let the slightest bit of animal product on the sandwich. Waiters don't. But every time I go to a restaurant I feel like I'm about to get into a battle with the waiter about what food should be forbidden to me, but I don't cause he already knows what a vegetarian won't eat. But a sandwich shop, where I don't have a chance to explain it if I call in the order, why do the workers not know what a vegetarian won't eat???? Use your damn brains idiots!!! And I shouldn't have to freaking explain it anyway. You know I don't eat meat. You should KNOW that it includes eggs, stupid. If you don't know, then assume I mean no eggs. Eggs don't grow on plants, dumb-ass! So I don't eat them!!!

[Mr. Cynical]

I find Thibault cancels out Capo Ferro, don't you?

[Ferret Herder]

Just about every time I've seen something labeled "vegetarian", it's contained milk and/or eggs. If it's vegan, it's labeled as such.

True, eggs don't grow on plants, but they don't require an animal's death to produce.

[milroyj]

Simple suggestion, if you don't like the deli, eat somewhere else, or make your own goddamned lunch. You don't have a "right" to vegan food, anywhere.

[Interrobang!?]

Why should they assume "vegetarian" means "vegan"? Vegetarians have enough problems with people who eat fish or poultry calling themselves vegetarians and diluting the meaning of the word. They don't need it co-opted by vegans as well.

If you're a vegan, you should know better than to assume that a vegetarian meal will meet your dietary preferences.

[lezlers]

I've been vegan for six years and I am under no false illusions that I'll recieve a vegan meal if I ask for a vegetarian one. Hell, I don't even assume people know what vegan is, I usually tell them I'm vegetarian and lactose intolerant.

Vegan and vegetarian are not the same things. Vegetarians eat hard boiled eggs, vegans don't.

Calm the fuck down. People like you make the rest of us look bad.

[scablet]

From one vegetarian to another.. COOL THOSE INDIGNANT BUNS THE FUCK DOWN.

In making the decision to be vegan, you should have accepted that eating out would not be easy. You should know that the majority of places will not be accomodating to your dietary preferences, and you should bear the responsibility yourself of ensuring that when you do eat out of the house the food does not contain animal products.

The deli can't read your mind. They don't know how strict of a veggie or vegan you are, they don't know if you're lacto-ovo, or lacto-ovo-pesco, or vegan, or if you don't eat refined sugars and flours, or WHAT. Are the contents of this boxed lunch kept confidential until purchased? I assume not. If you know there are eggs and mayo in it, don't buy it.

You're right, preparing vegan meals is easy. SO DO IT YOUR DAMN SELF and stop looking for excuses to go on self-righteous binges like this one.

[prisoner6655321]

HEY NOW! I am ranting here on this damn (wonderful) board so I don't have to get all pissed off in real life!!! Calm down! That's what this board is for, to let us blow off steam. I'm not all pissed off about the food I eat. Actually I'm pretty relaxed about my vegetarianism now. It used to bother me to no end when they cut my pizza with the same knife that cut a meat lovers pizza. Sure I'd prefer it if they cut it with a clean knife, but it won't stop me from eating it.

Anyway, they should assume that vegetarian means vegan because they weren't specifically told that it didn't. Only a person who is a vegan and knows the difference would assume that vegetarian meant eggs are okay. To the average american, vegetarian means no animal products. It's possible that they might have a misconception, but it's based on personal experience, not on popular opinion. You don't expect to recieve a vegan meal when you ask for vegetarian BECAUSE you are a vegan. The term vegan was coined by the vegan community to separate themselves from those of us who don't have as strict a diet. They sold the term, not the meat eaters. So the meat eaters don't understand what the difference is between a vegan and a vegetarian, unless they are shown, usually by a vegan, not a vegetarian. Since they don't understand the difference then they should assume that it means "all animal products."

And I didn't eat at the deli. Believe me, if I did eat there, (and I have eaten at ONE Murphey's deli - it's a chain - before. They have good veggie sandwiches.) I would make sure that they didn't put the damn eggs in there. This was a boxed lunch provided by a salesman. It was made clear to the salesman that there were two vegetarians in the office. I thought by now the people ordering the food would know but I guess I was wrong. Next time I'll make sure.

And I am not a Vegan, anyway. I am a lacto-vegetarian. I each cheese and drink milk but I do NOT eat eggs. But if they prepare it vegan then I'll gladly eat it. So telling them that I am a vegetarian is accurate. What am I supposed to tell them, I'm a lacto-vegetarian? That's even more cryptic than Vegan. I posted about the term vegan because it's the easiest to explain to the general meat eating public and most people think vegetarian is vegan, unless they know the difference. And these people obviously didn't know the difference because if they did they would have asked the person who placed the order, and they would have asked me. If they didn't know the difference, then they should have excluded the egg.

And eggs ARE sort of like killing. No it's not fertilized, but it is a pre-chicken. Milk is not a pre-cow.

Next time I'll tell them, just like the first 10 times I told them.

[iampunha]

Preparing a vegan meal really isn't hard at all. No meat, no dairy, no eggs, no mayo, no gelatin, no spread that might have eggs, gelatin, meat, or dairy... like ranch dressing. EASY!

Yeah ... sounds easy to me. Or then again, maybe not;)

How do you feel about pickles, prisoner? And is there a sufficiently large population of people similar to you in dietary practice in your general area that you believe any food preparation outlet (i.e. deli etc) and/or personnel should know the difference between vegetarian and vegan?

[prisoner6655321]

Nope. If they don't understand the difference, then they should either ask, or they should assume the worst. Nobody asked so they should have assumed the most strict diet.

[Guinastasia]

If it's not fertilized, it's not pre-chicken, dumbass. That's like saying it's like killing if a woman ovulates and doesn't get pregnant.

The meal was vegetarian, NOT vegan. If it was vegan, I could understand your rant.

Get over it.

[prisoner6655321]

I am over it. But I'm not over this thread. It was vegetarian because I asked for a vegetarian meal. But you guys just are not understanding...

If you do not know what vegan means then then you think that vegetarian means no animal products.

[Guinastasia]

You're right, we don't understand.

Vegetarian=no meat, right?

Vegan=no animal products period.

[prisoner6655321]

Oh, would you eat a human egg? No wait, that borders on canibalizm. No wait. It doesn't because an unfertilized human egg isn't a pre-human. So, would you eat a human egg?

[Guinastasia]

No, because it's disgusting, and it's not QUITE the same kind of egg.

Thanks for playing, though.

[prisoner6655321]

Nononono! YOU understand the difference between vegan and vegetarian but you are not hearing that I am not talking about vegetarians or vegans. The average omnivorous human being does NOT understand the difference. If he does understand the difference then he would ask. He didn't so he doesn't understand the difference so to him...

Vegetarian=no animal products

Vegan=huh? What does that mean?

[iampunha]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321
That's what this board is for, to let us blow off steam.

A few minor quibbles:

1. Forum (the BBQ Pit), not board (you would be expressly verboten from posting this rant, say, in ATMB [a forum], where it most assuredly does not belong:))

2. You are allowed to rant here, but not with immunity. "If ya gotta flame, do it here" does not contain the subsequent clause "and without concern for feedback".

Anyway, they should assume that vegetarian means vegan because they weren't specifically told that it didn't.

Were they told specifically what to include/disinclude, or were they told "No, not a vegetarian meal, a vegan meal" without being told specifically what either is/is not?

To the average american, vegetarian means no animal products.

We aren't talking about the average american here, we're talking about people working a specific job in a specific city:)

Have to go now, so I'll just keep this quick:

And eggs ARE sort of like killing.

Is it your position that, prior to being cooked/prepared to be eaten, eggs are alive?

Lastly: it is not all that smart (IMO) to assume that anyone, unless they have demonstrated knowledge otherwise, knows how to prepare food just the way you like it:) YMMV, etc.

[theendisnear]

You asked for a vegetarian meal. You got a vegetarian meal. You are pissed because they didn't assume by "vegetarian" you meant "vegan." Is this correct so far? because if it is then you sir are completely in the wrong :P

[Mockingbird]

*sigh*

All over an egg.

[Ferret Herder]

No, to the average American, vegetarian means no "red meat". To some of them, it can include fish and/or poultry. Perhaps you should be counting your blessings that you didn't get tuna fish for lunch.

[Monty]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321
The average omnivorous human being does NOT understand the difference.

Ovo-lacto-vegetarian here and now asking for a cite.

If he does understand the difference then he would ask.

Logical fallacy: False Premise.

He didn't so he doesn't understand the difference so to him...

Ditto.

Vegetarian=no animal products

Vegan=huh? What does that mean?

That you can't read a dictionary, apparently. For your perusing pleasure, courtesy of our friends at M-W:
Courtesy the first:
Main Entry: [1]veg·e·tar·i·an
Pronunciation: "ve-j&-'ter-E-&n
Function: noun
Etymology: [2]vegetable + -arian
Date: 1839
1 : one who believes in or practices vegetarianism
Courtesy the second:
Main Entry: veg·e·tar·i·an·ism
Pronunciation: -E-&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
Date: circa 1851
: the theory or practice of living on a diet made up of vegetables, fruits, grains, nuts, and sometimes eggs or dairy products
Courtesy the third:
Main Entry: veg·an
Pronunciation: 'vE-g&n also 'vA- also 've-j&n or -"jan
Function: noun
Etymology: by contraction from vegetarian
Date: 1944
: a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy products; also : one who abstains from using animal products (as leather)

So, you see, I hope, that there is a widely-recognized scale, if you will, of human masticatory customs.

[scablet]

Indeed, a surprising number of people I talk to believe that vegetarians eat poultry. And I live in Los Angeles where we have a fairly high number of vegans, vegan restaurants, whole foods stores etc. I think it's safe to say that most Americans do NOT think that "vegetarian" means "no meat products."

Anyway, they should assume that vegetarian means vegan because they weren't specifically told that it didn't.

may be the strangest stretch of logic I've heard all week, congratulations. :confused:

[Scarlett67]

It's just a fact that most of the American carnivore population (including deli workers AND waiters/waitresses, who more often than not are just trying to pay the rent and are not "professional" food mavens with a culinary degree*) have the following beliefs about vegetarianism:

Vegetarian = no meat.
Vegan = ???

They simply do not grasp all the various levels of ovo-lacto-pisco-chicken-eating vegetarians, or that broth counts as meat, or all the foods that vegans perceive as being animal products. The vegan's proscription of honey and gelatin surprises them: "Those aren't meat!" Mayonnaise doesn't have meat in it, so it should be OK, right? And some vegetarians will eat eggs. Heck, even though I'm "semi-vegetarian" (eat very little meat, and red meat only about twice a year), I would still ask about ingredients before trying to prepare a vegan meal, and even double-check myself when cooking for vegetarians.

In short, YOU are the one who should be asking, if you have special dietary requirements. The poor schlub making your lunch cannot be expected to read your mind.

* My use of quotes for "professional" is not meant as a slam against waitrons. I know that they work damn hard, I'm always polite to my server, and I'm a big tipper. So there :p

[prisoner6655321]

Why is it disgusting? Because it's human, right? But it's not human. It has human DNA. So what's the difference? If it's not quite the same kind of egg, then you shouldn't use it to compare. Oh, but you can compare it. The chicken egg has the building blocks to create a chicken, therefore it is a pre-chicken. Milk has cow DNA but it does not have the building blocks to create a cow. Not in nature anyway.

Monty, you can't use logic to explain the public. Do you need a cite to show something so obvious? And I'm not talking about me dagnabit. I know what a freaking vegetarian is. I know it's not a vegan. But they guy that prepared my pita didn't know what a vegan is, obviously. Geeze I shouldn'a ever said "vegan" in this post.

Whoops, iampunha, you got me about the forum/board thing. Big deal. I knew I would get some reaction, but can't you guys react without resorting to calling me names? But I came in here expecting a flamefest anyway. So I could blow off some steam. Y'all's reaction was right on target. Thanks for arguing people. I feel much better now.

[Athena]

Fuck that. I'm a meat eater, and I damn well know the difference between vegetarian and vegan. If I'm preparing a meal for someone who told me they were a vegetarian, I would think no more about putting an egg in it than I would using honey, cheese, and milk. However, if my vegan friend asked me to make lunch, I wouldn't include ANY of the above products.

Quit assuming that all meat eaters are fucking idiots. If you want a vegan meal, ask for one. Don't tell someone you're a vegetarian and then bitch if they give you an egg.

[Dissonance]

My, my, my. As a nine year vegetarian who could really care less about what other people choose to eat, it is annoying as hell to have to deal with 'meat eaters' after their exposure to vegetarians who throw self righteous hissy fits.

Here’s a clue: were you a vegetarian your entire life?

*sigh*

[prisoner6655321]

Yeah, Athena. 'Cause you know the difference.

Oh, sorry I didn't mean to imply that meat eaters are idiots.* Just the ones that prepared my pita. Apologies if you thought I was including you in this group.


*ignorance is not equal to idiocy

[7 up yours]

Your rant is all over the place.

You're basically saying that these deli workers should assume what you want? What, you expect them to read your mind? If you are really this picky about your food, then you should either A) specify exactly what you want and don't want in your meal instead of assuming they can read your mind or B) make your own god damn meal

[Guinastasia]

No, they weren't idiots. They thought when you said vegetarian, you meant, "no meat." Not "no eggs."

Get a clue, dumbass.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Let me get this straight. The OP'er knowingly gets a meal which is labeled as vegetarian. The meal actually is vegetarian. The OP'er is upset by that.

Clear-cut case of microdeckia.

[Guinastasia]

Micro-whatta?

:confused:

[FisherQueen]

I don't see how this is the deli people's fault. When someone tells me they're a vegetarian, I assume that means no meat, no poultry, probably (but not definitely) no fish. I know what a vegan is, but if you don't tell me you're a vegan just a vegetarian, you're getting a nice meatless meal, and it just might be a cheese omelette.

I'm not a vegetarian (though I have a few friends who are, and one who's vegan), but if I were, I'd be crystal clear with food service people about what I do and don't eat. They're just counter monkeys, after all, and I'm not going to assume that they're good at playing guess-what's-in-my-head.

[Dangerosa]

I have omnivore friends, no red meat friends, vegetarian friends, vegetarian friends who occationally eat fish (but don't want to sit down to a surprise fish meal, as they limit their fish to only a few times a month), vegan friends, lactose intolerant friends, friends who have gluten allergies, friends who are on limited diets due to kidney disease, friends that are diabetic, friends doing Atkins, friends that don't eat refined sugar, friends who keep kosher, friends who only drink Pepsi and other friends who only drink Coke. (Dinner parties in my circle are challenging).

NONE of my diet limited friends are stupid enough to order a deli boxed lunch without getting clarification on exactly what is in there. If they are picky about something - for reasons related to either preference or health, they make sure to ASK. If they ASK and they don't get what they want, they can go ahead and rant. They "assume" that people will think vegetarian means "chicken is ok" not that it means vegan. Or lactose intolerant means cheese is fine, just don't bring me a glass of milk. Or that "I am deathly allergic to peanuts" means the chef will take that as a personal challenge to add some peanuts to prove its all in their head.

You ordered a vegetarian boxed lunch. You got a vegetarian boxed lunch. Vegetarian is NOT vegan. If you are making a VEGAN boxed lunch don't put a hard boiled egg in it. Don't put mayo on the sandwich. Don't throw a butter based cookie in for dessert. Every non-vegan vegetarian I know will eat these things gladly (a few of them live off eggs, cheese and dairy).

I'm an omnivore myself. But I stay away from lunchmeat (too many nitrates), don't want cheese on my sandwich (unnecessary fat), will skip the brownie (trying to lose some weight). Maybe since we are going for the least common denominator in boxed lunches on what EVERYONE can eat, we should just sell the box.

And despite being an omnivore, I can spot a kosher vegan meal at 50 paces. (Kosher and vegan actually work very well together, as your chances of mixing meat and dairy go down a whole lot when you are dealing with neither meat nor dairy - although my kitchen is not kosher so if you are a strict kosher vegan, you should eat before coming over).

[Q.E.D.]

You, in re the consumption of human eggs:
Originally posted by prisoner6655321
Oh, would you eat a human egg? No wait, that borders on canibalizm. No wait. It doesn't because an unfertilized human egg isn't a pre-human. So, would you eat a human egg?Originally posted by prisoner6655321
Why is it disgusting? Because it's human, right? But it's not human. It has human DNA. So what's the difference? If it's not quite the same kind of egg, then you shouldn't use it to compare. Oh, but you can compare it. The chicken egg has the building blocks to create a chicken, therefore it is a pre-chicken. Milk has cow DNA but it does not have the building blocks to create a cow. Not in nature anyway. OK, this is all over the map. But really, if you think about it, there's nothing inherently disgusting about eating a human egg. Fundamentally, it's no different from swallowing human semen, swhich many, many female dopers admit quite freely in a different thread that they do, and enjoy doing it. I found Guin's response a bit surprising, but maybe she's one of those that thinks swallowing semen is disgusting too. ;)

In any case, if you don't want egg, make your own damn lunch or quit bitching if someone else makes it and you don't like it.

[obfusciatrist]

So what if you are vegetarian, not vegan, and you go to this deli and you want to order a vegetarian sandwich, but not a vegan sandwich, because you want the cheese and egg.

So, the deli should assume that vegetarian means vegan because they don't know there is a difference and should therefore conform to the most restrictive of the two (even though they don't know there is a difference between the two). However, the vegetarian, knowing what vegetarian means should understand that the deli won't know what vegatarian means and therefore assume they will be receiving a vegan sandwich when ordering the vegetarian sandwich. Therefore they should order as such: "I want the vegetarian sandwich but since you'll be making me a vegan one could you please add egg, cheese, and a little mayo?"

Does that about sum it up?

[finette6]

I really hope that the OP didn't go off like this at the person who packed the lunch!
it's hypersensitivity like this that gets vegs of all stripes a bad name. I have never seen it seriously claimed that the normal definition of "vegetarian" includes no-eggs. If you want no-meat-no-eggs, ask for it! I have learned to be as specific as possible, without being condescending to whoever is making my food.

[Bad News Baboon]

Ah, the infamous box lunches...

Once upon a time, I worked at an office where we would recieve box lunches from the various reps. We had an employee there that acted a lot like prisoner6655321. He would open up the lunch and sigh rather loudly, tear the sandich apart, sigh some more, etc. He would mumble under his breath about the food being vegetarian and not vegan. It got to the point that he was taken aside from by the boss for his boorish behavior.

The fact is, it was a free lunch. If you are going to be uber picky about what you eat, take your own lunch. A lot of people at my work did and no one thought nothing of it. The fact is, not everyone knows what a vegan is. You are way out of line.

Jesh, do you throw a fit over people that take your picture with standard film,too?

[Larry Mudd]

Jeez, prisoner6655321, your wrath is uncalled for.

Even the time I ordered a vegetarian omelette (can you get your head around such a concept?) and, due to a language barrier, received a western omelette, with tiny bits of diced ham in it, and worse, ate some of it, not noticing the hamminess of it for a while because I was absorbed in a book, I didn't flip about it.

Sure, I spent a minute puking in their bathroom, but I didn't cop an attitude about it. It was just miscommunication.

Your situation is similar, except that the establishment communicated quite clearly what was on the menu. Any resulting confusion comes from your own stubborn refusal to recognize the consensus on the definition of "Vegetarian."

It can't be simple coincidence that you remind me of a certain celebrated anthropomorphized egg:'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'
---Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking GlassCareful, boyo, you're spoiling for a fall.

(You're welcome to throw tomatos if you don't have any sulphurous eggs handy.)

[BrightNShiny]

You guys don't realize what is going on. This is obviously yet another plot by the new Number 2 to screw with Number 6655321's mind. Everyone on The Island has been using the term Vegan to mean Vegetarian and vice-versa. Now that Number 6655321 has changed to conform, they will all change back to the proper way.

To add insult to injury, the giant white balls are now egg shaped. I feel for you Number 6655321. Your mind is obviously gone at this point.

[LauraLittlePony]

I am confused.

You asked for a vegetarian meal.

The meal WAS vegetarian.

You are upset because the meal was not vegan?

I don't understand why you are upset about getting what you asked for.

If you asked for vegetarian, you DID get what you requested. If I asked for a sandwich without tomato, should I get upset if they didn't also leave off the pickles? No, because they didn't know that I didn't want pickles. I didn't request that.

If you're concerned about popular opinion, maybe you could order something "without meat, eggs, or dairy" instead of as "vegetarian." That way people will know what you mean AND you will actually be asking for a vegan meal.

[Guinastasia]

Really? I guess I'm stupid-I thought an egg would be all bloody-a human one, that is.

Okay, color me never mind and clueless there. ;)

(And I don't think swallowing semen is disgusting.)

[Q.E.D.]

Noooo...you can just barely see a human egg. It's just a single cell, all full of cytoplasm, water and other cell-gunk. But no blood.

[FisherQueen]

I was under the impression that human eggs were really, really, really small. So small that you'd never even notice if you ate one. But I don't actually know, as I've never laid one. Or, wait a second, I lay one every month, don't I?

[Cat Whisperer]

An unfertilized chicken egg does not actually contain all the building blocks for a chicken. It contains half of the building blocks for a chicken; the other half are contributed by the sperm of the rooster. Germ cells (gametes) are haploid - only half the stuff of life in them. Somatic (body) cells are diploid - have the full complement of 46 chromosomes, all paired up nicely in a double helix.

And as a practicing omnivore (carnivore isn't really an accurate description for humans - we wouldn't thrive on a strictly meat diet), I haven't got the faintest clue what is and isn't okay for any flavour of vegetarian eating. It is up to you, Mr. Vegetarian, to let people know what you choose not to eat. I don't know what has eggs in it, and what has gelatin in it, or that gelatin is a meat product. I thought it was a dessert product.

[Cat Whisperer]

Sorry, didn't do my homework well enough - chickens actually have 78 chomosomes in their diploid cells, not the 46 that humans have.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Thanks to Google, (http://www.vfth.com/2000/06/01)

Nursing Slang Of The Day (A New Feature!)
Microdeckia - clinical condition caused by not playing with a full deck.

Great word!

Of course prisoner is flat-ass wrong on his assessment of what most people think vegetarians are. He's just upset because he fucked up his free lunch order and isn't good at taking responsibility.

I'm a fish-eater, but otherwise vegetarian. I can tell you that about the only people in America who conflate vegetarian with vegan are holier-than-thou vegan pricks like prisoner (and like the editors of some major vegetarian magazines) and airlines. Order a vegetarian meal on an airline, and you'll get raw bulghur soaked in lemon juice with a stalk of broccoli, and some nasty-ass whole-wheat hockey puck topped with rancid canola oil on the side. Airlines don't want to deal with prisoner's wadded up panties -- so they make me suffer. No yoghurt on a morning flight, no butter with my meal, no cheese, no eggs, no nothing of the things that these unimaginative cooks so desperately need in order to flavor the food.

Prisoner's ilk are a major reason why vegetarians in the US have such a bad reputation. Less of them=better for all of us.

On the bright side, he'll probably give it up before he leaves college.

Daniel

[Götterfunken]

Take the egg out and eat the goddamn sandwich. Next time, ask specifically for a vegan sandwich.

For most people, "vegetarian" means "lacto-ovo vegetarian"--no meat, but eggs and dairy products are OK. I've noticed on airplanes, though, if you ask for a "vegetarian" meal, they will provide you a purely vegan meal. When I was vegetarian, I learned to ask for a "lacto-ovo" meal so that I could at least get the cheese that I desired.

But airlines are the exception. Most other places, inc. restaurants, will interpret "vegetarian" as "lacto-ovo" (even if they don't know the phrase), and not as "vegan."

Chalk it up to a learning experience.

[Horrifying Howler Monkey]

I've been a vegetarian my entire life, and I cannot understand at all what you are complaining about.

You asked for a vegetarian meal, you recieved a vegetarian meal, you are mad because even though you got what you asked for, they should have given you a vegan meal because the average person does not know the difference between a vegetarian and a vegan?

I have never heard the definition of vegetarian to exclude eggs.

[Guinastasia]

Next time, would it be too much trouble simply to say, "VEGAN" if that's what you want?

[Blonde]

You must say Vegan, not Vegetarian, as stated before -- I get very odd meals as a Vegetarian on airlines. I've learned to ask for a "low-calorie, vegetarian" meal - otherwise, you're presented with a very high-fat, high-calorie meal which consists primarily of rice, cheese, and bread.
The general public doesn't understand the difference between vegan and vegetarian. It pretty much is what it is at this point.

[Truth Seeker]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321
Vegan=huh? What does that mean?
In your case, it apparently means someone from the Vega star system.

However, here on Earth, our telepathic skills are somewhat underdeveloped. We use these things called "words" that have pre-defined meanings. It's a bit tricky at first, but you'll get the hang of it.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321
Nononono! YOU understand the difference between vegan and vegetarian but you are not hearing that I am not talking about vegetarians or vegans. The average omnivorous human being does NOT understand the difference. If he does understand the difference then he would ask. He didn't so he doesn't understand the difference so to him...

Vegetarian=no animal products

Vegan=huh? What does that mean? I just read this. Are you fucking retarded? Seriously. Since when does vegetarian=no animal products? No one I know associates vegetarianism with not eating any animal products whatsoever. Every single vegetarian I know will eat eggs and cheese. ALL of them.

People like you are the reason I get a kneejerk "fucking moron" reaction whenever I hear the term "vegan". Because of people like you, I think all vegans are reactionary morons.

[Blunt]

Did you even eat the egg, prisioner? It wasn't clear to me from your post how the egg was incorporated into the lunch. Was it separate from everything, or was it part of the sandwich or something?

If it was seperate, and therefore didn't screw up the other food in there, what are you so pissed about?

If it was part of the sandwich or something I could see you getting a little mad since it would have screwed up a major part of your luch, but I honestly think the only one you could be mad at would be youself, because this was your mistake.

If, even worse, you accidentaly ate some of the egg because it was incorporated into other food, I could see you being really pissed, because I can see this would be a big deal to you. But, again it would be your own fault and the only one you should be pissed at would be yourself.

The reason I say this is your own fault, is basically the same reasons the rest of the posters have been trying to tell you, and I'm not going to repeat all of it. Basically that you ordered a vegitarian lunch, got a vegitarian lunch, and then got pissed because you incorrectly assumed that vegitarian means vegan to most of the rest of the people in this country.

[Winsling]

Don't listen to them prisoner! I got your back. Just the other day I was in a restraunt, and after I ordered a bacon cheeseburger, she brought me... A BACON CHEESEBURGER! It wasn't even pretending to be kosher! She should have known that...

I'm sorry, this is too stupid to even parody. You got exactly what you asked for which is a damn sight better than you deserve.

[mhendo]

Another vegetarian checking in here.

I know very few people who don't understand the distinction between vegetarian and vegan. Some might perhaps be confused about whether a vegan is allowed to eat honey, and a few seem to think that vegetarians eat seafood and/or chicken, but for the most part the distinction is pretty well-known.

You asked for a vegetarian meal, you got a vegetarian meal, and now you're complaining that the people who prepared it weren't as ignorant as you expected them to be?

[lezlers]

Originally posted by Q.E.D.

People like you are the reason I get a kneejerk "fucking moron" reaction whenever I hear the term "vegan". Because of people like you, I think all vegans are reactionary morons.

Nooo!!!! We're not all like this, I swear, see my first post to this thread.

You see prisoner? You're giving the rest of us a bad name, knock it off.

Honestly, how long have you been vegan? It couldn't possibly be for that long or else you'd know that your little "theory" is complete and utter bullshit.

I have NEVER met anyone who though vegetarian really meant vegan. That is the stupidest theory I've ever heard.

This makes me really, really angry because thanks to you and your idiocy, people assume the worst of me when they find out I'm vegan. :mad:

[Monty]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321
Monty, you can't use logic to explain the public. Do you need a cite to show something so obvious? And I'm not talking about me dagnabit. I know what a freaking vegetarian is. I know it's not a vegan. But they guy that prepared my pita didn't know what a vegan is, obviously. Geeze I shouldn'a ever said "vegan" in this post.

No. I need a cite for you to prove that assertion you obviously pulled out of your rear. Heck, I live in California in a small enough town. Plenty of folks here know the difference between Vegetarian (all the different types) and Vegan (all the different types--hie ye to the aforementioned dictionary and you'll notice that Vegan's not as simple as you make it).

BTW, did you quiz the dude? Did you ask, "Excuse me, kind sir. Are you aware of the differences between a Vegetarian and a Vegan?" Or did you just assume that your mistaken observation is Truth Almighty?

[whatami]

This thread isn't turing out like you expected, is it prisoner6655321 you fucking wanker.

[eenerms]

To paraphrase "Notting Hill": I'm a fruitarian, I only eat fruit that drops off trees.:):D

[elfbabe]

Hmm. So if most people think that vegetarians don't eat any animal products, then why do menu options labeled vegetarian so often contain CHEESE? Or EGGS?

Face it, most of the population, if they're even aware that vegans exist, don't have any idea of what dietary restrictions that represents, or just think it means "especially nutty vegetarian". And a decent percentage of the population, especially in certain meat-heavy regions, has trouble grasping even the basic IDEA of not eating meat, at least judging from my experiences.

The deli workers are not stupid. They are not dumbasses. You asked for a vegetarian meal and by god, they prepared you A VEGETARIAN MEAL. You got exactly what you asked for. So quit whining about how stupid the people who gave you what you asked for are and next time ask for a "vegetarian meal, no eggs".

JAY-sus.

[Leaper]

Okay, let me get this straight... The OP is arguing that, because people don't know vegans from vegetarians, that all food made for non-meat eaters must be vegan, to cater to those people so they don't get any eggs and cheese and such. Why? I mean, isn't that just changing who gets inconvenienced, from the vegans to the vegetarians who WANT that stuff? Don't the feelings of the cheese-loving vegetarians count? What's the point of having the different labels in the first place if you blur the lines that way?

And how many people really DO think that vegetarians are basically vegans? Some, I'm sure, but even *I* have heard of the cheese and egg exception. Hell, I've even heard of the fish exception.

[Andy]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321
Anyway, they should assume that vegetarian means vegan because they weren't specifically told that it didn't.
You should head over to GD. There's always a need for more logical, critical thinkers like you over there.

[prisoner6655321]

GGGGG whatami, are you serious?

Man I wrote a long explanation and correction and totally lost it. My own fault. Wasted an hour, which is too precious. It was great too. Really a nice piece of literature. You all would have changed your mind about me. Not the argument. That's what it was all about. I hate when this happens. I'm gonna write them in txt documents first from now on.

Well, let me say this. You are right. I am wrong. I can't change my mind though. It's just the way I feel. Happy?

I feel it necessary to defend my honor though. I am not like this in RL at all. I hate those vegetarians that make life miserable for us too. I am definately NOT one of them. I make it a point to not force my beliefs on other people. If they ask me about my vegetarianism I will talk to them about it, but I don't go blabbing about it. It usually takes a month or two for new employees and new friends to even find out I'm a veggie. And even if I eat out with them they might not guess. I don't advertize it. I'm certainly not ashamed of it. Quite the contrary. But I don't like being one of those vegetarians that makes life hard for other vegetarians. I only acted the way I did on this forum cause, well, it's the pit for goodness sake. You're supposed to act like a jerk here, right? But I didn't act like a jerk to any of you, did I. I love SDMB members. You are all very bright, friendly (outside of the pit), well rounded people. My kind of people. I only wanted to blow off some steam. Sorry if I pissed all of you off. Really I am not an evil vegetarian. I didn't blow my top when I saw the egg and mayo. Though I really wanted to. Even if it was my fault for not telling my co-worker for the 10th time that I don't eat eggs and please don't let them put ranch or mayo on the sandwhich. Maybe I should have blamed him, or the product rep. But I still think most of the responsibility belongs to the deli person. You think I'm wrong. I can't disagree. But I was angry. That's why I came here. Is that okay? Nuffsnuff.

And sorry about this lame backpedal. The first one was much much better. I learned two lessons today.

[Monty]

So, now you're a vegetarian? I thought you said you're vegan?

[Ferrous]

Originally posted by Leaper
Okay, let me get this straight... The OP is arguing that, because people don't know vegans from vegetarians, that all food made for non-meat eaters must be vegan, to cater to those people so they don't get any eggs and cheese and such.
Actually no, not quite. It's even stupider than that. The OP is apparently not, in fact, vegan. He/she eats dairy, but NOT EGGS!!! Got that? Cheese, okay. Eggs, HOW DARE YOU?!!

And the food preparer was supposed to know this somehow.

[Monty]

Ferrous: That's hilarious. He's whining about eggs being "sort of like killing," but he eats cheese! IIRC, cheese has rennet in it & rennet's exactly like killing!

[Arnold Winkelried]

I must have missed it. Where does the OP say that s/he eats cheese? The first post in the thread says "no dairy".

Anyway not to go against the grain, but I think that the original post does have something to say in its favour. Suppose I prepare a vegetarian sandwich. Why not skip the egg and dairy products altogether and make it vegan? I'm sure it's possible to make a sandwich without mayonnaise or cheese that is very good. A vegetarian would be able to eat it and so would the vegan, thereby killing two birds with one stone (oops! wrong analogy.) Just because a sandwich is vegetarian doesn't mean that it must contain eggs or cheese or mayonnaise.

[mhendo]

Originally posted by elfbabe
Hmm. So if most people think that vegetarians don't eat any animal products, then why do menu options labeled vegetarian so often contain CHEESE? Or EGGS?

At some Chinese and Korean restaurants that i've been to, the "vegetarian" section of the menu also contains considerable amounts of pork.

e.g. Deep fried bean curd with vegetables and pork

(and i'm talking real pork, not some fake TVP-type stuff)

[Ferrous]

Monty, you may just have blown his fragile little mind.

(Although there is a rennet-substitute curdling agent that is not animal based. You have to go out of your way for it though; it's not commonly used. I bet his pizza had regular cheese on it.)

[Ferrous]

Arnold, he says it here, in his second post in the thread:
Originally posted by prisoner6655321
And I am not a Vegan, anyway. I am a lacto-vegetarian. I each cheese and drink milk but I do NOT eat eggs.
His reasoning, incidentally...
And eggs ARE sort of like killing. No it's not fertilized, but it is a pre-chicken. Milk is not a pre-cow.
Although I don't blame you for having skimmed over it. It was a very long and rambling post.

[Wyatt]

Yup, reminds me of the people I've seen, going out to dinner with a group, to a pre-named restaurant, and then sitting at the table and whining and throwing a snit, because "There's nothing I can eat here!"
Used to cut them some slack, but ate vegetarian for 6 years, and, at first, would just make sure I'd eaten BEFORE I went to dinner with groups, so if I found nothing to eat, I'd be fine with a dinner salad. But, after a while I found that every restaurant I went to, either had something on the menu that was vege. OR, if I asked the server to ask the chief they'd whip something up for me, that, usually became the envy of the rest of the table.
No longer have much truck with vegetarian folks who want their food preferences to be law or reasons for sympathy.
Though I used to wonder who put the rule into the average cook's book that a vegetarian Needed an avocado with their meal, if there wasn't going to be meat in it???!?
Y'all ever noticed that one?

[3trew]

So, milk isn't a pre-cow, while an egg is a pre-chicken, except it isn't, but cheese is okay despite the number of bacteria... but fish are sometimes vegetables, and honey is...

I just eat things and assume that, in one way or another, they'd be happy to do the same to me. Show me a cow who wouldn't ethically eat grass that had been nourished by a human corpse and I'll suspect you might have a point.

[kabbes]

Just for the record, what the fuckity fuck do you put in a vegan sandwich? Peppers and hummus? Any other suggestions?

The kabbes is a vegetarian and sometimes I go vegan for a while (and cut out yeast and wheat too - match that if you can!). I've gotten pretty good at preparing imaginative vegan meals. And I tell you this: sandwiches are wonderfully versatile things, but only up to a point. Once you rule out meat, fish, eggs and cheese my imagination seriously begins to run out.

pan

[MC Master of Ceremonies]

It's mans God given right, nay duty, to kill and eat animals.

Do you really think a cow would think twice about eating you?

[kabbes]

Wow, I'm really close to using my one annual eye-roller smiley.

[MC Master of Ceremonies]

Animals like being eaten, it's their raison d'etre

[kabbes]

Well:

1) No they don't. Don't be a fucking dipshit.
2) It's got nothing to do with this thread at all in any case. You're just being childishly provocative for the sake of being an ass.
3) What's it to you anyway what people eat, or do you just like being an obnoxious toad for the hell of it?

pan

[MC Master of Ceremonies]

well okay I'm sorry I didn't mean to offen you:o

[Arnold Winkelried]

Originally posted by kabbes
Just for the record, what the fuckity fuck do you put in a vegan sandwich?Avocado, lettuce, tomato, pickles, nuts, some of those soy or nut-based "burgers" or a tofu dog, mustard, alfalfa sprouts, ...
When I was single, I sometimes would eat for dinner:
two pieces of toast
tofu
spaghetti sauce
as a sandwich. So there!

[kabbes]

So there, nothing. This is useful information!

Now let's see:

Avocado - I like it, the kabbes does not. Useful for me when on one of my don't-eat-anything kicks though.

lettuce, tomato, pickles, nuts, mustard: filler, no good for making a whole sandwich though

some of those soy or nut-based "burgers" or a tofu dog: ah; no soy or tofu allowed on the killer detox either

alfalfa sprouts: apparently popular in the US; I have no clue what they are.

Erk. I'm still not getting anywhere.

There's still good ol' hummus and pepper though. Always hummus and pepper. Sob.

When I was single, I sometimes would eat for dinner:
two pieces of toast
tofu
spaghetti sauce
as a sandwich. So there!Good man.

On a separate point: whenever I try to cook tofu it always turns into a squidgy mess that disintegrates in the pan. Not necessarily a problem in a spaghetti sauce, but a big problem in a stir fry. Does anyone know how I can avoid this?

pan

[kabbes]

(Stick an extra "s" on the end of kabbes in the third paragraph above)

[Guinastasia]

Um, and how does the OP know they don't know what vegan means, when no one ever asked them for a vegan meal?

And HOW is it the deli person's fault? Did you say, 'No eggs?'

If you didn't, it's YOUR fault, dumbass.

[BrotherCadfael]

Originally posted by MC Master of Ceremonies
Animals like being eaten, it's their raison d'etre The pig in the Simpson's "Garden of Eden" episode, delightedly ripping off a strip of bacon here, a sparerib there...

[Ferret Herder]

Originally posted by kabbes
On a separate point: whenever I try to cook tofu it always turns into a squidgy mess that disintegrates in the pan. Not necessarily a problem in a spaghetti sauce, but a big problem in a stir fry. Does anyone know how I can avoid this?
Are you using the tofu that comes in a juice box style of packaging? Don't. Use the kind that comes in a tub of water with a sheet of plastic on top. Before use, wrap a clean towel around it, and place it on a cutting board. Lay a couple of books on top of the tofu - just enough weight to gently press down on it without squashing/breaking it. Let sit for a half hour to an hour. Then remove from the towel, and marinate/whatever as needed.

If you need more firmness, consider pre-cooking the tofu some before adding it to a stirfry - either fry lightly in oil, or bake in the oven.

[Dangerosa]

Kabbes,

Put the tofu (buy extra firm) on a plate between two paper towels. Squish with something heavy (I use a big butcher block type cutting board) for an hour or so. It will still crumble, but not nearly so bad.

My sister in law can beat you. Vegan. Kosher. Wheat allergy. Citrius allergy (including tomatos). Oh, and she doesn't like most vegetables. This means that some of my main standbys for vegetarian cooking are out. Eggs and cheese dishes - out, due to the dairy. Pasta dishes - out due to the wheat. I make a killer tofu and asparagus stirfry (usually a pasta dish, but I left the noodles out for her) - but she doesn't like asparagus. Take the tomatos out of anything you are cooking (which adds a damper to a lot of stuff). But now that she is keeping strict kosher, she can't eat out of my kitchen anyway.

Few people mind vegetarians who take care of themselves. They show up at BBQs with the Boca Burgers in a cooler "just in case you forgot." (and if picky about putting them on the grill on top of your beef fat, pull out a piece of tinfoil to cover the grill.) They stand up for themselves when choosing a restaurant "oh, you know, I don't think we'll be able to find much to eat there, how about xxxx?" They question the waiter on the contents of the food, so they aren't surprised by the beef base in the soup. There are two types I find very annoying. The first is the evangelical vegetarian - convinced he can convince me to find steak disgusting. This is as bad as me looking at my veggie friends and insisting they try "just one bite" of my burger, or inviting them over and sneaking meat into the dishes (wouldn't do either btw). The second is the martyr - always hungry because "no one understands" and apparently incapable of fixing themselves a hummus and pepper sandwich (which sounds really good). Prisioner is a martyr.

[Andy]

The SDMB.
We get knowledge and damn good practical advice on tofu preparation.
Unique or what;)

[Shade]

I think there are vegan cheese-substitutes. There certainly are non-rennet cheeses.

I think the problem is that the OP's definition of vegetarian is "no meat, no eggs, but cheese and milk are ok." Mine is "no meat, eggs, cheese and milk are ok." I thought mine was the common definiton (it seems that way in UK restaurants) but maybe his is. Do most people in the US agree with your definition?

[Fin_man]

Shade, I don't think the big issue is what is the US or UK definition of vegetarian. The big issue (IMHO) is that prisoner6655321 didn't tell the deli person what his/her requirements were and is now bitching about the results.

Simple solution:
Orderer: What comes on the "xyz" sandwich?
Deli Person: Some 'x', some 'y', some 'a', some '2', some 'g', and some 'z'.
Orderer: Il have that but hold the 'g' and the '2'.
Deli Person: Sure thing.

Everybody is happy, right?

[kabbes]

Thanks for the tofu tips, Ferret H and Dangerosa

[carrot]

Also, kabbes, what kind of tofu are you buying? For stuff like stir-fry, I usually use the "Extra-firm" designation, and then follow the procedure outlined by Ferret Herder and Dangerosa. However, I alter it a bit buy cutting it into slices before pressing it. You can squeeze it without so much worry of damaging the structure, which helps keep it from disintegrating.

As for cooking, what ever I'm using it in, I usually fry it in just a bit of oil beforehand, which also seems to help with its structural integrity. I keep it in the slices, if I'm using it as, for example, a barbecue-type dish (or, my wife's favorite, tofu piccata), or I cut it into cubes if it's going in stir-fry.

[Shade]

Originally posted by Fin_man
Shade, I don't think the big issue is what is the US or UK definition of vegetarian. The big issue (IMHO) is that prisoner6655321 didn't tell the deli person what his/her requirements were and is now bitching about the results.

He seemed to expect the Deli to understand his definition - I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt that maybe they should have done... I agree specifying what is/is not ok is best if there's any doubt.

That said I bet in some places you get a lot of:

This is vege, yes?
Yes.
No meant, right?
Yes.
Including chicken?
Yes.
OK. One please.
OK.
Hey, it's got chicken.
Yeah.

[mhendo]

I do pretty much exactly what carrot does when i cook tofu. You don't have to fry it dark brown; just enough to give the outside a slight toughness that will resist crumbling.

Often, however, in stews and curries, i find that the tofu i usually buy (Trader Joes extra firm organic) doesn't fall apart if i'm careful when stirring the pot.

[lezlers]

Yeah, I never show up at a bbq empty handed, I always bring Boca burgers, and enough to share (you'd be suprised how many people want to try them and upon trying them, would rather have them than the real burgers!) 'couse, I always bring beer or something as well, that's just good manners.

kabbes, are you doing a cleanse? You mentioned detox. If you are, I've got a cleanse cookbook, email me if you want some recipies.

I agree with everyone's suggestions on how to use tofu in stir fry, also you can try freezing it. It completely changes the texture, but when marinated right it can be DAMN tasty. I usually do that when I use it in enchaladas.

And MC Master of Ceremonies, you're obviously in here for the sole purpose of "baiting" vegetarians. That's generally considered rude and generally as obnoxious as those evangical vegetarians who go around preaching. Just an FYI.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally posted by lezlers
Nooo!!!! We're not all like this, I swear, see my first post to this thread. Oh I know it. But I've met so many vegans with just the sort of militant attitude the OP engenders, that it's just ingrained in me to be disdainful when someone tells me they're a vegan.

[Velma]

I would eat a human egg, but there's the problem of getting them out, and you would need an awful lot of them for a decent breakfast. Plus I like eggs scrambled, and imagine the teeny, tiny wisk I would need for that.

I do draw the line at human bacon.

[kabbes]

I'm not on a cleanse right now, lezlers, but the kabbess and I do one at least a couple of times per year. (As it happens, the loss of meat I have no problem with since I don't eat it much anyway. It's the loss of dairy, because white and cheese sauces are out and, most of all, the loss of a nice cup of tea that most does for me). Anyway, as you know variety is really hard when detoxing so I would really appreciate any recipes that might liven things up. At least I've really learned how to use herbs and spices effectively -- you have to when you're not allowed to use any ingredients with taste!

I'm looking forward to getting some tofu to try some of these ideas out. I didn't even know you could get it in different firmness ratings, so that was presumably my problem. And freezing it: interesting. Do you marinade it before or after freezing? Or leave it freezing in the marinade?

carrot and mhendo - I've found that flash pre-frying just meant that it went a bit firmer on the outside but then wouldn't cook on the inside, so it was slimy in the middle instead of having that nice Chinese take-away feel all the way through. Any ideas of what may have been going wrong?

And do you think that it's OK to make something useful out of this thread, or has the tofu hijack gone far enough?

pan

[Bryan Ekers]

Judging from the braindead nature of the rant, I'd say the OP is actually a breatharian.



On a diet.

[carrot]

Hmm...the only thing I can think is maybe you're cooking it on too high a heat, so that the outside gets done but the inside doesn't have enough time.

lezlers, I'm a bit interested in hearing about the freezing technique myself, as I've only ever used it as a pre-crumbling step. It seems to me that the texture gets more grainy and more conducive to that sort of thing. Are you talking about something different?

As for the hijack,...Well, at least it's about vegetarian food. I guess we could discuss pie, ir you'd rather.

[lawoot]

I'd say the average American thinks of vegetarian as "no meat, dairy and fish usually OK", and Vegan as "a whiny, immature no-it-all who feels that they have to push their agenda on others."

[lezlers]

Marinade it after you freeze it. You know the texture of shredded chicken? That's the texture of frozen tofu. If that gives you a better idea.

You don't have to give up tea in a cleanse! They have detox teas actually, that are damn good. Also, herbal teas are still okay (or at least according to when I did my cleanse, a few years ago). The dietary requirements are CRAZY strict, I'm a vegan and they were strict as hell for ME! I can copy and scan some recipies for you, or just give you the name of the cookbook, whichever you prefer.

I think the tofu hijack is just dandy, since we've all pretty much come to a concensus that the rant is lame.

[lezlers]

lawoot, please don't think of vegans that way. That's like saying you think of all Christians like the some of the loony fundies on this board.

And carrot, yeah it gets grainy when you freeze it. We're probably talking about the same thing. I only freeze it for a couple of recipies because the texture works better (enchaladas)

[mhendo]

Kabbes

I actually like it when the tofu is still smooth but warm in the middle. I find that if the slices are thin, or if the cubes are fairly small (no bigger than half inch) then the tofu is usually nicely cooked and hot on the inside. You can also try broiling or baking the tofu. The latter, especially, tends to cook the tofu right through, rather than simply searing the outside and leaving the inside slippery. Try 20-30 minutes at 350-400F, depending on what works best for you. It's especially nice if you bake it in a soy sauce/honey/balsamic vinegar/ginger/garlic marinade. Go here (http://www.fatfree.com/recipes/tofu/) for some good recipe suggestions (warning: two or three annoying pop-ups).

If you're talking about the sort of honeycomb texture that you get with some take-out tofu, i believe that this effect comes from deep frying. I don't mind tofu this way, but don't eat it very often because of the amount of fat it adds to the meal, and the hassle of deep frying at home.

[Horrifying Howler Monkey]

Anyway not to go against the grain, but I think that the original post does have something to say in its favour. Suppose I prepare a vegetarian sandwich. Why not skip the egg and dairy products altogether and make it vegan?


Because some of us vegetarians are not vegans? I like mayo, I like cheese, and I don't want to end up having to eat some tofu substitute. That is exactly what happened at the cafeteria at the University I went to. All vegetarian dishes became vegan.
On pizza day one used to be able to get a vegetarian pizza, which was like a non-vegetarian pizza, but without meat. Neat. Then they decided that vegan did in fact equal vegtarian, so there was naught a veggie pizza to be found withought fake cheese.

[lokij]

I'll eat anything that stands still long enough for me to put it in my mouth. If it fights back, more the better. Anyways, I AM a bit perplexed at the logic behind one not eating eggs because it equals killing a prechicken but happily drinking milk which produces veal as a byproduct. Anybody care to enlighten me? Is there some kind of special milk that you drink that avoids this part of the dairy industry?



Mmmmmmm Veal.

[kabbes]

lezlers - tea substitutes just don't cut it I'm afraid. I'm English. Tea is my one answer to any problem life might throw at me.

That aside, I've found my groove in the detox now, although it still gets tedious after about the 6-week mark. That's why I don't normally manage to see it through the full three months.

Thank the lord for wheat-free yeast-free bread and hummus. And dried figs.

pan

[kabbes]

::looks above him:: oh look - another tosser! Amazing how these threads attract them, isn't it?

(p.s. it seems OTT to keep thanking people for things, but I'm still reading the use-of-tofu advice, honestly)

cheers

pan

[carrot]

Originally posted by lezlers
And carrot, yeah it gets grainy when you freeze it. We're probably talking about the same thing. I only freeze it for a couple of recipies because the texture works better (enchaladas) Most likely. I used it once as a ground beef substitute in a recipe (I believe it was marinated in vegetarian Worcestershire sauce), and it performed admirably.

And kabbes, I must second mhendo's suggestion of thin slices and/or small pieces. The more heat you manage to work into the tofu itself, I find, the firmer it gets.

[Mama Tiger]

[slight hijack]

I have two questions for the vegans here, since there seem to be so many.

1) I had a coworker who was vegan, and I was talking with her one day about her dietary choices -- just honest curiosity -- and asked her why she didn't eat dairy. She proceeded to explain to me at length that dairy causes mucus and mucus causes diseases. Uh, right. I said thank you and left it at that. Is that an honest vegan theory, or was she just a nutcase? (My vote was for the latter, but I'm happy to be shown the depths of my ignorance.)

2) One day as I walked past this same coworker's desk, I saw her eating lunch. It was a liquid virulently fluorescent green goo in a bowl. Does ANYONE have any idea what might have been in it? It looked like something my dog threw up after eating week-old garbage, although I'm sure it was far more nutritious. And no, I'm not mocking vegans, I just was completely mystified by what it might be! But because of conversation (1) above, I decided to pass on by and reserve my curiosity for myself. But now I'm sharing it with you guys. :D

[/slight hijack]

I think the OP is an idiot, too, to suggest that people assume dairy is okay but eggs are not for vegetarian OR vegan or anything else. Deli workers are not hired for their telepathic skills. And if you want a free lunch that meets your dietary requirements, either ask for it specifically or fix it yourself.

My dad taught in India for several years back in the '50s, and had a fellow teacher who taught science. One of his students was a Jain, who was so upset by seeing microorganisms in water and food through the microscope in class that he broke the lens. He didn't want to know that with every drink or bite he took, he might be killing life, however microscopic. So clearly there are levels of dietary strictness that go far beyond what even the strictest vegans can come up with.

[Nametag]

This thread made me really hungry, so I went and made a chicken 'n' swiss omelet; I cooked it in the greasy pan from last night's cheeseburgers. I am a terrible person.

[Antimanics]

I just wanted to chime in about how much this thread reminds me of that If you operate a restaurant in America, speak Greek (incorrectly) thread.

I'm also kind of amused that someone with a beef about killing animals would take a username from a murderer. What's it going to be then, eh?

[prisoner6655321]

Am I going to have to reply over an over and over and over again that I am actually not a militant fundamentalist or martyr vegan? I only posted here to blow off some steam. I'm also a vegetarian for health reasons. I am a Christian and God gave us permission to eat animals. But he didn't tell us we HAD to eat animals. So the veal thing doesn't really bother me.

BTW. Not all cheese has rennet in it. Actually very little cheese you find in the average American grocery store has rennet. You do have to make sure, but generally the common cheeses that a deli will use do not have it. Also, as I said very near the beginnning of this too long thread, I'm not as picky as I used to be. Some cheeses I just don't know about. I can't ask the deli person cause I'm sure he won't know. So I bite the bullet and eat it anyway, or more likely if it's suspicious then I'll ask them to not include that cheese. But if the cheese I do include does have rennet it's kind of okay. A little rennet isn't going to kill me. It's just not worth the aggravation. But keeping eggs out of my meals is a lot easier. People usually know if their ingredients have eggs in them.

Mama TigerPoint number one is true. It's not vegan nonsense. When you have a cold or flu and you remove dairy from your immediate diet you will notice that you don't have as much mucus. I do eat dairy, but not when I am sick. It's not because it causes disease. I don't know about that. I just don't like to he hacking up phlegm all the time when I'm sick.

Number two. It might have been split pea soup. Some people make it non-vegetarian with pork or chicken or what-not. You can probably find some in your grocery store. It's really not that uncommon.

[mhendo]

Originally posted by lokij
Anyways, I AM a bit perplexed at the logic behind one not eating eggs because it equals killing a prechicken but happily drinking milk which produces veal as a byproduct. Anybody care to enlighten me? Is there some kind of special milk that you drink that avoids this part of the dairy industry? If by "produces veal as a byproduct," you mean that veal calves are fed milk, you are right, but your argument is moronic.

If i understand you correctly, you suggest that the OP shouldn't drink milk because it is also fed to veal calves. By this logic, neither should vegetarians eat any grain or soy products, because those products are also fed to livestock in order to produce meat.

Look, i think we need to recognize that every single one of us lives with certain contradictions in our lives, and vegetarians and vegans are no different. Let me use myself as an example. My vegetarianism stems from a few different concerns:

1) the health effects of eating meat, especially modern feedlot-produced meat which often comes from less-than-healthy animals pumped full of antibiotics etc.

2) the way that animals are treated under modern "farming" techniques

3) the global politics of meat production, in which so much of the earth's protein is fed to animals in order to provide meat for western societies, while so much of the world's population suffers from protein deficiencies.

Each one of these positions subjects me to possible accusations of inconsistency or hypocrisy, for example:

1) while one of my reasons for not eating meat relates to health issues, i still happily scarf down chocolate, chips, alcohol, and a bunch of other unhealthy stuff.

2) while i hate the way animals are treated under modern factory farming techniques, i still consume eggs and dairy products, and the animals that produce these products often have the worst lives of any farm animals.

3) despite being concerned about global hunger, i still eat more than i need to, and sometimes waste food by forgetting about it and letting it go off in my fridge.

I recognize these contradictions, and the fact that i do is the reason that i don't preach to other people about what they should eat. I'd like to cut down on eating junk food, but i like it. I could give up milk and eggs easily enough if i put my mind to it, but giving up cheese would be reeeeaaaally hard. And i could probably be more conscious of what i eat and what i waste.

I don't beat myself up about these things, because i think everyone lives with similar tensions in one part of their life or another. For some, it's their jobs that cause them concern, for others, it might be their religion, for others their politics. For me, in this instance, it's my diet.

[Fin_man]

Originally posted by mhendo


<snip>

1) while one of my reasons for not eating meat relates to health issues, i still happily scarf down chocolate, chips, alcohol, and a bunch of other unhealthy stuff.

<snip>


and from mhendo's sig:


God was my co-pilot, but we crashed in the Andes and i had to eat him.


Oh, the irony.

BTW, as for the food going bad, I just bought a FoodSaver vacuum pack machine. Food lasts longer.

[Dangerosa]

So, despite not being a vegetarian, I had a vegetarian pizza for lunch. Real cheese - but they put carrots on the darn thing! Carrots! On a pizza! Veggie pizza is supposed to be olives and peppers and onions and mushrooms - and maybe some spinich. Broccoli if you are really out there. But not carrots.

The nerve of some people.

(My guess for the neon green goo - seaweed salad)

[mhendo]

Originally posted by Fin_man
and from mhendo's sig:God was my copilot, but we crashed in the Andes and i had to eat himOh, the irony. And he tastes like chicken, y'know!

:D

[Fin_man]

Originally posted by mhendo


God was my copilot, but we crashed in the Andes and i had to eat him


Oh, the irony. And he tastes like chicken, y'know!

:D

But he's so high in cholesterol.

Am I going to hell now? :eek:

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

mama tiger, Prisoner, there are no good medical studies which show that dairy consumption increases mucous. tTis urban legend has been repeated so often that waaay too many people consider it fact, but it is not.

Even if it did, mucous doesn't cause disease anyway. Not your own, at least. Someone with TB who's phlegmmy should be avoided.

QtM, MD

[whiterabbit]

We ([b]Mama Tiger[/b is my mom) figured that she had the whole cause and effect thing mixed up with the mucus. And I have never noticed a difference when I have a cold whether I have dairy or not.

Split pea soup is not virulently green. My guess is that it was some sort of algae goo. I have heard of such things. Possibly seaweed, as was pointed out above. Either way, eww.

I'm a picky eater, though an omnivore. So I don't even eat sandwiches I don't make myself. I ask questions at restaurants if I have the tiniest qualm about what might be in a dish. If I were cooking for a friend who said they were vegetarian, with no further information, I would assume that dairy and eggs were all right. If they said they were vegan, then I know what that means, and I'd make sure they could eat what I cooked. There is no need to be an asshole about any particular special dietary requirements up front. Preachiness about the health benefits and how animals suffer counts as assholery in my book, unless I asked you about why you don't eat what you don't eat.

[Gulo gulo]

My guess on Mama Tiger's green goo is spirulina.

[Odesio]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321
You know I don't eat meat. You should KNOW that it includes eggs, stupid. If you don't know, then assume I mean no eggs. Eggs don't grow on plants, dumb-ass! So I don't eat them!!!

So you're just another asshole who thinks the whole world should just conform to your wishes.

Marc

[prisoner6655321]

Dang, here we go again. I don't act this way in RL. I'm starting to realize that even in the SDMB you get some real morons.
READ THE WHOLE DAMN THREAD BEFORE YOU MINDLESSLY JUDGE THE OP!

[Fin_man]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321
Dang, here we go again. I don't act this way in RL. I'm starting to realize that even in the SDMB you get some real morons.
READ THE WHOLE DAMN THREAD BEFORE YOU MINDLESSLY JUDGE THE OP!

And you are the head moron?

You say in the OP
If you don't know that the vegetarian isn't a vegan, then play it safe and make the lunch vegan!
This implies that you are vegan and the deli worker should have known (even though you asked for a vegetarian sandwich.)

later, you say
And I am not a Vegan, anyway. I am a lacto-vegetarian. I each cheese and drink milk but I do NOT eat eggs.

Under your request, somebody could start a thread and in the OP say "I think all short people should go to jail" but then later say "Actually, I love short people, I'm married to a short person, and short people are needed in this world." This whould absolve you of anything you said in the OP against short people.

Sorry, the world (and the SDMB) doesn't work that way. You can't "take it back."

[whatami]

Fin_man is right, you can't take it back. What you can do is say, "You were all right. I'm sorry I wrote all of that. I'll try not to be stupid again."

[Mama Tiger]

Originally posted by Gulo gulo
My guess on Mama Tiger's green goo is spirulina.

Feeling extremely lazy this evening, care to enlighten me on what spirulina is?

And thanks, QtheM. It was always my understanding that (a) dairy doesn't cause mucus, and (b) even if it does mucus doesn't CAUSE diseases, it's CAUSED by diseases (i.e. when you get a cold you get extra mucus -- but when you get well it goes away again!). So like I said, I just said, "Uh, right," and moved on.....

Prisoner, you might as well stop trying to rewrite what you said and just admit that maybe this time your ignorance needed fighting and next time you should just tell 'em what you do and don't want in your pita. The folks on here are too good at finding logical holes for you to continue pretending yours don't exist!

[Guinastasia]

Um, what is "detox?" Is that like a fasting?

[Gulo gulo]

Mama Tiger:

Spirulina is blue-green algae and looks like, well, green goo. My stepmom drinks it all the time and that's pretty much the best way to describe it.

[prisoner6655321]

Originally posted by Fin_man

And you are the head moron?

You say in the OP
If you don't know that the vegetarian isn't a vegan, then play it safe and make the lunch vegan!

This implies that you are vegan and the deli worker should have known (even though you asked for a vegetarian sandwich.No it doesn't. It means if they prepared it to the strictest standard then I would have had no problem eating it. I never said that I was vegan.

Did you read the whole thread?

[Elza B]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321
This implies that you are vegan and the deli worker should have known (even though you asked for a vegetarian sandwich.No it doesn't. It means if they prepared it to the strictest standard then I would have had no problem eating it. I never said that I was vegan.

Did you read the whole thread? [/QUOTE]

I've read the whole thread and you're still an idiot.

You asked for a vegetarian lunch. You got a vegetarian lunch. An egg is vegetarian. An egg is not vegan. You are a vegetarian who does not eat eggs. You did not ask for a vegetarian lunch without eggs. You were angry because the workers did not read your mind and give you a vegetarian lunch without eggs.

You're still an idiot and you give normal vegetarians a bad name.

Ava

[Elza B]

And I'm an idiot who fucked up the coding (although all I did was hit quote, so can I blame that on someone else? Can I just blame it on Cecil and that he should have read my mind and known what I wanted quoted even though I didn't specifically look it over to make sure the coding was correct?)

Ava

[lezlers]

Originally posted by Guinastasia
Um, what is "detox?" Is that like a fasting?

A colon cleanse. Gets rid of all the toxins in your system, you feel great afterwards but you have to have INSANE willpower. I've done one, once. I lasted 4 weeks and it was a 6 week program. It's pretty hard core.

There are different ways of doing it, fasting, herbs, mondo strict diet, enemas or a combination of these things.

And mama, I have no idea what the electric green goo was. Sorry.

Prisoner, I think the fact that you are refusing to take any responsibility for what happened is what's pissing so many people off, you know, because it was entirely your fault. I've yet to see you take any responsibility for it.

[Mearl Dox]

For a while, there was a fastfood sandwich I really liked, but I liked it even better without the beef, just with lettuce and sauces and tomatos and things. Frequently would I ask for it without the meat. Frequently would the reply come "Would you like bacon on that?"

I am a meat eater, I just like some vegetarian foods. And I know the difference between a vegan and a vegetarian, and I'd assume anyone who calls himself vegetarian eats no meat but eats eggs and milk and honey products unless otherwise informed.

And a pickled pepper sandwich would be great.

[Guinastasia]

Ah. Well, Cecil Adams (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a900525.html) spoke about that.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally posted by lezlers
A colon cleanse. Gets rid of all the toxins in your system, you feel great afterwards but you have to have INSANE willpower. I've done one, once. I lasted 4 weeks and it was a 6 week program. It's pretty hard core. Yeah, no offense intended, but this is basically nonsense. There's no medical evidence that this sort of thing is beneficial. That said, there's not all that much that says its particularly bad for you, either. The colon has little if anything to do with extracting "toxins" from the bloodstream; a task handled primarily by the liver, and the kidneys to a lesser extent.

[lezlers]

is mucoid plaque also a urban legend?

[Q.E.D.]

Originally posted by lezlers
is mucoid plaque also a urban legend? Apparently so.

[Q.E.D.]

Crap. That was supposed to be a link (http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/mucoidplaque.html).

:smack:

[Guinastasia]

Besides, aren't you SUPPOSED to have muccus in your bowels? I think there was a GQ question about this, and one of the posters who is a doctor (Qadgop?) said that if you're shitting muccus, it's a BAD THING.

[Guinastasia]

Oh, here is the thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=174539).

[lokij]

Originally posted by mhendo
[B]If by "produces veal as a byproduct," you mean that veal calves are fed milk, you are right, but your argument is moronic.

If i understand you correctly, you suggest that the OP shouldn't drink milk because it is also fed to veal calves. By this logic, neither should vegetarians eat any grain or soy products, because those products are also fed to livestock in order to produce meat.

B]

Ummm.. no... I'm not the moron here, that is by no stretch of the imagination my argument.Veal is a substantial byproduct of the modern dairy industry. Dairy cows are kept pregnant for as much of their lives as possible to keep up milk production, resulting female calves are raised as dairy cows but male calves are raised for veal. And most veal calves BTW are never fed ANY milk their entire lives, they are fed a formula milk substitute. Part of my post was a question on whether there are any sizable dairies that avoid this particular moral dilemma, although I don't see how it's possible.

Now *I* don't have a problem with this aspect of the dairy industry. I eat veal myself and drink milk ect... my question was directed at somebody who evidently had a moral problem with eating eggs but no such problem with milk. I fail to see how you could have even remotely interpreted my post as being 'preachy' on the side of vegetarianism. I could care less what other people choose to digest.

[Rilchiam]

Originally posted by lezlers
And MC Master of Ceremonies, you're obviously in here for the sole purpose of "baiting" vegetarians. That's generally considered rude and generally as obnoxious as those evangical vegetarians who go around preaching. Just an FYI.

Oh come on. This thread went to hell on page 1. Relatively speaking, MC's remark was lighthearted.

---There have been several references to the OP getting a "free" lunch. I'm not sure his lunch was, in fact, free. Perhaps people are thinking of the anecdote about someone's cow-orker who habitually bitched about his free lunch?

---prisoner, your name is wrong. Alex was prisoner six-double-five-three-two-one, not double-six-double-five-three-two-one.

---Who the hell eats on a plane, anyway?

[mhendo]

Originally posted by lokij
Now *I* don't have a problem with this aspect of the dairy industry. I eat veal myself and drink milk ect... my question was directed at somebody who evidently had a moral problem with eating eggs but no such problem with milk. I fail to see how you could have even remotely interpreted my post as being 'preachy' on the side of vegetarianism. I could care less what other people choose to digest. I didn't interpret it as being preachy on the side of vegetarianism; i interpreted it as being as preachy asshole against one particular vegetarian's diet choice. This is the point i was trying to make: we all live with certain contradictions in our lives, and preaching to people about their diet choices--whether pro or con vegetarianism--is generally the sign of a wanker.

And it's a bit of a self-serving stretch trying to shift moral responsibility for veal calves to vegetarians who choose to drink milk. Sure, veal is, to a certain extent, a by-product of the dairy industry. However, if there were no demand for the veal itself, then those calves would not be raised the way they are.

[Mama Tiger]

Originally posted by avabeth
And I'm an idiot who fucked up the coding (although all I did was hit quote, so can I blame that on someone else? Can I just blame it on Cecil and that he should have read my mind and known what I wanted quoted even though I didn't specifically look it over to make sure the coding was correct?)

Ava

If our OP is correct, yes.

[Annie-Xmas]

And where does THIS fit into the vegetarian/vegan world?

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=198659

I'm a vegetarian. I tell people this, and explain that I don't eat any flesh food, but eggs and dairy are okay. If you don't ask exactly for what you want, don't blame other people for not knowing it.

[prisoner6655321]

Originally posted by Rilchiam

---There have been several references to the OP getting a "free" lunch. I'm not sure his lunch was, in fact, free. Perhaps people are thinking of the anecdote about someone's cow-orker who habitually bitched about his free lunch?
Actually it was free, except it cost me my lunch. I had to sit through a sales meeting with a growling stomach when I could have been at my desk eating my Schlotskys sandwich and surfing the net. But that wasn't the point. I never asked anyone to read my mind. I told my co-worker every time for the last 10 free meals that I don't eat eggs. They KNOW my diet needs. There was no mind reading.

And I did accept responsibility. You would know that if you REALLY read the thread.... Even if it was my fault for not telling my co-worker for the 10th time that I don't eat eggs and please don't let them put ranch or mayo on the sandwhich...

---prisoner, your name is wrong. Alex was prisoner six-double-five-three-two-one, not double-six-double-five-three-two-one.[/B]It's 6655321 in the book - the name intended by the creator of the character and the story that has the meaningful ending where Alex learns his lesson. 655321 is the Alex that ended up, in the first American novel version and thus the Kubrick Movie, where he started, a cold hearted murderer. So in fact, you could say that my name Prisoner6655321 is named after a reformed Alex, because it is the book that I have chosen to name myself after, not the movie.

[catsix]

mhendo said:
If by "produces veal as a byproduct," you mean that veal calves are fed milk, you are right, but your argument is moronic.

Having worked on a small, family owned, non-corporate 'organic' type dairy farm for three years, I can tell you that it's not the fact that veal calves are fed milk that makes a dairy farm contribute 'to the veal industry'.

Reality is that in order to keep cows producing milk, those cows have to keep having calves. Those calves will either be male or female. Of the female calves, some or most are kept to renew the herd. Most of the time none of the males are kept because the dairy farmer will use artificial insemination to ensure a good gene distribution. Those calves that are auctioned off or sold have to go somewhere, and though some of the females could be picked up by other dairy farms, you can be almost certain that the males will be sold for veal or castrated, raised as steers and turned into beef.

[Sivalensis]

I have a mini-sampling here. At my job there are approximately 15 workers. Four identify themselves as vegetarian (one doesn't like eggs, but eats them if she can't taste them, the others have no problem with lactose products), one is vegan (and all that implies - nothing related to animal products, such as gelatin, dairy, honey, whey, meat, etc), and one is almost vegetarian (meaning that he eats meat occasionally, so doens't identify himself as such). We often have birthday parties (cake or pie), and unfortunately, this usually means that the vegan is left out, but she doesn't complain, just gets something of her own to eat.

We just had her birthday party and they got some vegan cookies for her. There's never a problem there - she realizes that a lot of the time when we have desserts they aren't going to be edible for her (and yes, I know it's possible to get some vegan ones, but frankly, the ones I've had haven't been that good and besides that, it's up to the birthday girl/boy to pick their dessert, and we get a discount at the store next door, which doesn't really do vegan stuff, so don't go off on me about that).

I think that in a sense, some people are being too hard on the OP. Yes, it was idiotic to think that a vegetarian meal should be made vegan (a lot of vegetarians needs that protein from the eggs, or like mayo on their sandwiches), and to go off on the people at the deli (in the thread, not in person) because it should be vegan. But honestly, it seems it was the co-worker's fault. The co-worker was told several times that prisoner didn't eat eggs, yet failed to specify, and thus the food was inedible.

Just because prisoner is complaining here about it doesn't mean that he is a militant vegan/vegetarian. None of us have any idea what he's like in person and how he acts. The Pit is for fuming and flaming, and that's what he's doing. His arguments aren't the most coherent, but still, I think a lot of people are assuming that simply because he's complaining, that must mean he's an ass in real life.

And to continue with the tofu hijack - I don't usually press my tofu. I buy the extra firm, cut it in cubes, throw it in the stir fry and it browns a bit. It can be a little slimy, but I hate the tofu they usually have in chinese restaurants, where it's all fried and caky. Btw, I've found it's really good if cooked with balsamic vinegar, or sherry, or red wine, or soy sauce.

[lokij]

Originally posted by mhendo
I didn't interpret it as being preachy on the side of vegetarianism; i interpreted it as being as preachy asshole against one particular vegetarian's diet choice. This is the point i was trying to make: we all live with certain contradictions in our lives, and preaching to people about their diet choices--whether pro or con vegetarianism--is generally the sign of a wanker.

And it's a bit of a self-serving stretch trying to shift moral responsibility for veal calves to vegetarians who choose to drink milk. Sure, veal is, to a certain extent, a by-product of the dairy industry. However, if there were no demand for the veal itself, then those calves would not be raised the way they are.

Heh, what the fuck ever... I was poking fun at my own eating habits (or relative lack thereof) and pointing out that it doesn't make any sense at all for the op to go on about eggs being the moral equivalent of eating a pre-chicken but ignore (or not recognise) the moral problems inherent in drinking milk. Eat eggs, don't.. I don't care... I will however point out that it's kinda stupid to tell people that you don't eat eggs because 'it's sorta like killing' because they're 'pre-chickens' but readily drink milk which promotes the production of veal calves. I mean if you don't eat eggs because they creep you out, you don't like them, don't eat ANY animal products or think they're unhealthy.. fine... all perfectly sound reasons in my book. BTW the arguement against milk regarding veal production is hardly my own, it's the same one you'll hear many vegans espouse and the logic IS pretty solid. I just don't happen to see anything bad about it, but I would think that somebody who won't even eat an egg because it's 'sorta like killing' would have a MAJOR problem with the whole veal thing. All in all it was just another aspect of the op that made absolutely NO logical sense (along the same vein as asking for a vegetarian meal, getting one.. then complaining about it)that I wanted to point out.

In short I was being a preachy asshole about inconsistancy and sloppy thinking... not about anybody's dietary choices.

[lokij]

Originally posted by mhendo

And it's a bit of a self-serving stretch trying to shift moral responsibility for veal calves to vegetarians who choose to drink milk. Sure, veal is, to a certain extent, a by-product of the dairy industry. However, if there were no demand for the veal itself, then those calves would not be raised the way they are.

Oh! And one other thing.... if there was no demand for veal, just what do you think would happen to all those little baby steers? We're talking millions here. Well, sure they might not get made into veal.. somebody would probably buy them and let them live a few months more and slaughter them for regular beef. Eliminate all demand for beef? What would we do with all of those steers? Create some kind of cattle sanctuary where boy cows live their content little lives in a happy green pasture until they expire from old age? Or make them into Dog food? Fertilizer? Leather? Suggesting that eliminating the demand for veal would magically remove any moral problems with the dairy industry and hence shift the blame for those baby cow deaths entirely and directly onto those damnable veal eaters is ludicrous.

[hbrogan]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321

If you do not know what vegan means then then you think that vegetarian means no animal products.

No way! I'm a vegetarian, and when I tell people that, most of them assume I eat dairy and eggs. Then, there are those people, like my boyfriend's parents, who assume vegetarians eat fish and have to be told that I don't eat anything that was once an animal. Those people who know what a vegan is will ask if I'm a vegan or "just a vegetarian."

Just have to add...I wouldn't be too happy if my "vegetarian" meal turned out to be "vegan." But, then again, I assume that deli workers aren't that concerned about getting one meal perfect in their busy days, so if I was that worried about it I'd make my own lunch or at least go to the deli and watch them make my meal.

Heather

[mhendo]

Originally posted by lokij
Oh! And one other thing.... if there was no demand for veal, just what do you think would happen to all those little baby steers? We're talking millions here. Well, sure they might not get made into veal.. somebody would probably buy them and let them live a few months more and slaughter them for regular beef. Eliminate all demand for beef? What would we do with all of those steers? Create some kind of cattle sanctuary where boy cows live their content little lives in a happy green pasture until they expire from old age? Or make them into Dog food? Fertilizer? Leather? Suggesting that eliminating the demand for veal would magically remove any moral problems with the dairy industry and hence shift the blame for those baby cow deaths entirely and directly onto those damnable veal eaters is ludicrous. I never apportioned blame anywhere. I was criticizing you for shifting the blame away from meat-eaters and onto the shoulders of vegetarians who drink milk, which is exactly what you were doing.

[TWDuke]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321
... BTW. Not all cheese has rennet in it. Actually very little cheese you find in the average American grocery store has rennet. You do have to make sure, but generally the common cheeses that a deli will use do not have it.
Few cheeses list rennet as an ingredient, but I thought when a label listed "enzymes" as an ingredient (without a qualifier, as in "plant enzymes"), it usually meant rennet. Is that incorrect?

Of the cheeses in my refrigerator, two (Swiss and Mozarella) have enzymes, two (cottage cheese and goat cheese) do not.


So I bite the bullet and eat it anyway, or more likely if it's suspicious then I'll ask them to not include that cheese. But if the cheese I do include does have rennet it's kind of okay. A little rennet isn't going to kill me. It's just not worth the aggravation.
It doesn't have to be that much of an aggravation, if you could assume that most hard cheeses (the kind you slice and put on a sandwhich) have rennet and the soft cheeses (the kind you spread or eat with a spoon) don't.

But keeping eggs out of my meals is a lot easier. People usually know if their ingredients have eggs in them.Not really. Eggs lurk in all sorts of sauces, baked goods, confections &c. Most people don't know all the things that might have eggs in them and really don't care. If it's important to you, you might want to put some effort into learning.

[lokij]

Originally posted by mhendo
I never apportioned blame anywhere. I was criticizing you for shifting the blame away from meat-eaters and onto the shoulders of vegetarians who drink milk, which is exactly what you were doing.

I wasn't shifting 'blame' anywhere.. as it is there is enough to go around. Yep, meat eaters contribute to veal production. So do dairy consumers. One contributes to demand, the other contributes to supply. Doesn't change any of my arguments even a little bit.

[fluiddruid]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321
No it doesn't. It means if they prepared it to the strictest standard then I would have had no problem eating it.

But why should they have to prepare it according to the strictest possible standard? I'm a vegetarian, and I like eggs and dairy. I would be far more likely to purchase said vegetarian lunch if it wasn't prepared vegan.

It seems to be that your logic stands as thus:

a) Some vegetarians are vegan.
b) Vegans don't eat dairy or eggs.
c) Therefore, to please everyone, nothing vegetarian should be made with dairy or eggs.

It would make just as little sense to say:

a) Some people are vegetarians.
b) Vegetarians don't eat meat.
c) Therefore, to please everyone, nothing should be made for human consumption with meat.

[lezlers]

http://www.cleanse.net/mucoid_plaque.HTM

To each their own.

Fasting has been used throughout history as a form of detoxification in eastern medicine. Just because modern, western medicine doesn't recognize it as legitimate, doesn't make it so.

This isn't great debates anyway, I've done detoxification programs and noticed the difference in my body. Good enough for me.

[Larry Mudd]

Ai-yah, it went over my head.

If I may offer an uncritical word to prisoner6655321: cracking good username.

Repeat after me, everybody--

"Some pischa for the plenny, skorry-- Some dobby komtick kreb and mashy kartoffel, mappied with maslo and jammiwam, along with a sammy chasha of sladky chai. But slooshy hard, and pony well: No scoteena, or plott of any kind. Moloko is mounchy, and beecall's polezny, too-- but my soviet has an especial shilarny, so viddy well my rot, you rabbity chelloveck: If you sloochat to miss my chumbled slovos, and prod for me any grazhny eggiweg, I'll become a bezoomy bratchny, creeching and crarcking about what a zammechat gloopy sod you are, and, owing to what a oozhassny nadmenny molodoy moodge is me, don't expect any appy-polly-logies, afterward."

[BrotherCadfael]

Originally posted by fluiddruid
a) Some people are vegetarians.
b) Vegetarians don't eat meat.
c) Therefore, to please everyone, nothing should be made for human consumption with meat. This does seem to be the (alleged) logic of the more militant wing of the vegetarian population...

[Rilchiam]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321
Actually it was free, except it cost me my lunch. I had to sit through a sales meeting with a growling stomach when I could have been at my desk eating my Schlotskys sandwich and surfing the net. But that wasn't the point. I never asked anyone to read my mind. I told my co-worker every time for the last 10 free meals that I don't eat eggs. They KNOW my diet needs. There was no mind reading.

Fair enough. Although now I'm wondering why your rant was directed at the deli worker, rather than your co-worker.

And I did accept responsibility. You would know that if you REALLY read the thread.

And I never accused you of shirking responsibility. You would know that if you REALLY read my post.

It's 6655321 in the book - the name intended by the creator of the character and the story that has the meaningful ending where Alex learns his lesson. 655321 is the Alex that ended up, in the first American novel version and thus the Kubrick Movie, where he started, a cold hearted murderer. So in fact, you could say that my name Prisoner6655321 is named after a reformed Alex, because it is the book that I have chosen to name myself after, not the movie.

Jesus fucking christ; I thought I was the Nitpick Queen. I'm gonna have to surrender my crown.

:::steps down::: The Queen is dead; long live the King. Huzzah!

[Rilchiam]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321
Actually it was free, except it cost me my lunch. I had to sit through a sales meeting with a growling stomach when I could have been at my desk eating my Schlotskys sandwich and surfing the net. But that wasn't the point. I never asked anyone to read my mind. I told my co-worker every time for the last 10 free meals that I don't eat eggs. They KNOW my diet needs. There was no mind reading.

Fair enough. Although now I'm wondering why your rant was directed at the deli worker, rather than your co-worker.

And I did accept responsibility. You would know that if you REALLY read the thread.

And I never accused you of shirking responsibility. You would know that if you REALLY read my post.

It's 6655321 in the book - the name intended by the creator of the character and the story that has the meaningful ending where Alex learns his lesson. 655321 is the Alex that ended up, in the first American novel version and thus the Kubrick Movie, where he started, a cold hearted murderer. So in fact, you could say that my name Prisoner6655321 is named after a reformed Alex, because it is the book that I have chosen to name myself after, not the movie.

Jesus fucking christ; I thought I was the Nitpick Queen. I'm gonna have to surrender my crown.

:::steps down::: The Queen is dead; long live the King. Huzzah!

[Rilchiam]

Sorry; it didn't look like the first one had gone through. Damn you hamsters!

[mouthbreather]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321
would you eat a human egg?


Only if it is poched. Those tiny yolks get hard so quickly when you boil them and I really like dipping my toast in runny yolk. Once the yolk takes solid form, breakfast is ruined.

[mouthbreather]

poached, even.

[Wonko The Sane]

Originally posted by mouthbreather
Only if it is poched. Those tiny yolks get hard so quickly when you boil them and I really like dipping my toast in runny yolk. Once the yolk takes solid form, breakfast is ruined.

Plus, you need a -really- small frying pan to fry them in.

Am I the only person who thinks that the OP was a sarcastic dig at Trolls?

[Greyson3]

Originally posted by lezlers
http://www.cleanse.net/mucoid_plaque.HTM



Uh. I don't think that is a very good cite. This fellow does not have it together.

Why is it so difficult for some people to just admit that they enjoy enemas?

[Q.E.D.]

Originally posted by Greyson3
Uh. I don't think that is a very good cite. This fellow does not have it together. You're not kidding. Here's a gem: The condition of the colons in this entire country are FAR WORSE than either the doctors, the AMA, the Drug houses,.....or even the Natural Health industry have any conception.....and believe in our theory that the CAUSE OF MOST CONDITIONS OF ILL HEALTH IS AUTOINTOXICA-TION and that 95% of their troubles start in the colon. We can prove that we can find hardened mucous with its foul smelling curd in the colons of 95% of the entire nation. HOW DO WE KNOW THIS? Because possibly 99% of all ages and sexes have violated two of the major Natural Laws from one to three times every day since they were 2 years old. What are the two laws? 1. The WRONG combination of foods. 2. The constant daily use of tremendous amounts of DEAD FOODS.What the almighty fuck are dead foods? I mean really. Fine, be a vegan, if you must, but for Og's sake, don't be a fruitcake too.

[Little Plastic Ninja]

Hrm. Maybe everything that's not yoghurt?

[pkbites]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321
No meat, no dairy, no eggs, no mayo, no gelatin, no spread that might have eggs, gelatin, meat, or dairy.

You know, just because someone is in the food service industry doesn't mean they know the specifics to everyones fucked up diet.

Next time maybe they should just give you a nice box of dirt to eat.
Oh, wait.......that might have worm shit in it. Is worm shit an animal product?:p

[DocCathode]

I have read through all 4 pages of this thing. I'm shocked that nobody has commented on this-


Originally posted by Guinastasia

(And I don't think swallowing semen is disgusting.)

It was a good week, and this was a marvellous capping stone. I visited a friend I hadn't seen in a few months, saw Xanadu at a free outdoor showing, bought some Micronauts, took a looong walk through downtown Philly by night, and now this.

It does leave me with two questions though-

Should I make it my new sig line?

and, of course

How you doin?

[kaylasdad99]

Hey, Mama Tiger, if your cow-orker's Scary Green StuffTM looked substantially like this (http://www.happycookers.com/wc.dll/recipes/divulge/1197.html), then Spirulina is likely what it was.

[Wonko The Sane]

Originally posted by kaylasdad99
Hey, Mama Tiger, if your cow-orker's Scary Green StuffTM looked substantially like this (http://www.happycookers.com/wc.dll/recipes/divulge/1197.html), then Spirulina is likely what it was.



EEEeeeewww!
Nothing that color should -ever- be eaten on purpose.

[Guinastasia]

Eeew! It looks like melted turds!

[kaylasdad99]

Originally posted by Guinastasia
Eeew! It looks like melted turds! ummmm. . . I'm so happy I could enhance your experience of the SDMB today.

[OpalCat]

I've been a vegetarian for 17 years. I feel that makes me quite qualified to say that to most people "vegetarian" means "no meat" and that's all. They most certainly do NOT assume it means "no animal products" --you're just flat out 100% wrong in saying that they do.

Vegetarian meal = one with no pieces of animals in it.
Vegan meal = one with no animal-related things in it.

Ask for a vegan meal if that is what you want! By all means, world, do not listen to this person and start making all vegetarian things vegan by default! Some of us LIKE our cheese, etc., thank you very much!

I run the vegetarian community on LiveJournal and also the website www.vegetarianstuff.com and I speak from a position of experience when I say that people like you DRIVE THE REST OF US VEGETARIANS CRAZY!!! You make people hate vegetarians. You make our lives much more difficult.

PLEASE OBTAIN A CLUE and carry it with you at all times.

[OpalCat]

Originally posted by Skopo
I've noticed on airplanes, though, if you ask for a "vegetarian" meal, they will provide you a purely vegan meal. When I was vegetarian, I learned to ask for a "lacto-ovo" meal so that I could at least get the cheese that I desired.


Do most airlines do this? Have lacto-ovo meals available, I mean? I'll have to remember to ask next time I fly... I always assumed that since the vegetarian meal is the most bland and lame vegan fare imaginable that they only had the one vegetarian option.

[OpalCat]

Originally posted by Leaper
Don't the feelings of the cheese-loving vegetarians count? What's the point of having the different labels in the first place if you blur the lines that way?

This just made me giggle because the term "cheese-loving" just seems like it's meant to be a euphamistic explative. :D

[OpalCat]

Originally posted by Monty
Ferrous: That's hilarious. He's whining about eggs being "sort of like killing," but he eats cheese! IIRC, cheese has rennet in it & rennet's exactly like killing!

Just for the sake of clarity: only some cheese has rennet. It varies by type of cheese and by brand.

(Cabot extra sharp cheddar has no rennet! And it's also the Most Perfect Substance On Earth!)


...man... now I want some Cabot extra sharp cheddar...

--Opal, cheese-loving vegetarian

[OpalCat]

Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried
Why not skip the egg and dairy products altogether and make it vegan? I'm sure it's possible to make a sandwich without mayonnaise or cheese that is very good.

Because the vast majority of vegetarians DO eat cheese and most eat eggs as well*. And most LIKE them. If you were to poll 100 vegetarians about which sandwich they would prefer, one with cheese and mayo or one without, the one with cheese and mayo would win, I guarantee it. So, from a business perspective, you'd make more of your vegetarian customers happy with the cheese and mayo sammich. It's not unreasonable to expect the vegan folk to order a more specific sandwich.


*I'm not just pulling this out of my ass either (here, smell it, you'll see!) I've run polls in my vegetarian communities and lacto-ovo comes out waaaay on top.

[lezlers]

Not to mention the fact that there's a lot more vegetarians in the world than vegans. They're just more common. And I'm speaking as a vegan here. And any vegan who has an ounce of common sense (insert all vegans being loony joke here) know to specify "no dairy products" in their meals. I usually just say I'm lactose intolerant in order to avoid yet another debate or lengthy explanation of my dietary choices that the majority of meat eaters feel entitled to.

[kabbes]

For the record, you don't just have to do a detox to cleanse the bowels. As it happens, I, for one, have never been convinced by that whole nasty-bowel argument anyway.

The fact is that over the course of an average day, people put an astonishing amount of crap into their body. Surely noone really argues with the idea that "you are what you eat"? The human body never evolved to deal with the kind of chemicals over the kind of sustained time period that we throw at it these days. Maybe, coincidentally, it can deal with it. I don't know. But it seems to me that the default hypothesis is that it cannot, at least very well.

Check out any system when you begin to throw pollutants into the mix. The pollutants begin to build up. After a while, they cause a problem. Why should the human body be any different.

Therefore every three months or so, the kabbess and I spend 2-3 months eating, basically, nothing except for fresh, organic vegetables and fruit (plus a few other things, like pulses and tinned tomatoes. I'm not giving a comprehensive list). I generally find that after a couple of weeks, my cravings for junk food crap disappears and I actively start to want to eat fruit as a snack, for example. At that point you're generally eating at least 5-10 pieces of fruit a day.

The whole thing, obviously, should be combined with a decent exercise regime (although I try to follow this anyway)/

Either way, you certainly lose weight, become more toned and just feel much better. It's astonishing, for example, how much more energy you have. I always know its detox time when I get to the point that I'm just tired all the time.

Now to focus on some of the loonier explanations as to why one might detox and just discredit that (or claim that there is no proof) is really to miss the point. The basic concept -- that stuffing your bodies with chemicals that it never evolved to deal with is not a good thing -- is eminently reasonable. I generally find that those who seek to rubbish the whole idea are just those who can't cope with the cognitive dissonance that surely if it were a good idea then they would be doing it too? Well face it -- just because the idea might seem too hard for you to do, doesn't mean that it doesn't have merit.

pan

[Gary Kumquat]

Originally posted by kabbes
The basic concept -- that stuffing your bodies with chemicals that it never evolved to deal with is not a good thing -- is eminently reasonable.

This concept is clearly flawed beyond any salvaging.

Succesful research in Scotland has clearly shown that a diet high in processed meats, saturated fats and artificial additives is the only way to guarantee a massive, fatal heart attack by your mid forties.

The diet you propose kabbes is likely to lead to a life span well past this, and perhaps into your 70's or even 80's. This leaves you completely open to such long term fears as smelling of cabbage, having to save money in a pension rather than blowing it all on toys now, and being ridiculed by people much younger than you.

Is this really the fate you desire? Please kabbes, I beg you, reconsider and have a bacon sarnie.

[istara]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321
Anyway, they should assume that vegetarian means vegan because they weren't specifically told that it didn't.
No, they shouldn't.

Case closed.

[kabbes]

Originally posted by Gary Kumquat
... This leaves you completely open to such long term fears as smelling of cabbage, having to save money in a pension rather than blowing it all on toys now, and being ridiculed by people much younger than you.

Is this really the fate you desire? Please kabbes, I beg you, reconsider and have a bacon sarnie. Fate I desire? Hell, you've just summed up my life now.

Except for the "saving money" bit of course.

pan

[Annie-Xmas]

I am a vegetarian who does not drink alcohol, sugar-sweetened drinks or decaf. If I ask for a vegetarian meal and get wine or Kool-Aid or Sanka, should I throw a fit?

[Tony Montana]

I can prolly guess what happened. At order time you said: "Make mine a veggie" So your co-worker sez to the sandwich guy: "Ok make one a veggie please"
You shoulda said: "veggie, no egg, no mayo"

Case closed, your welcome.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally posted by Tony Montana
I can prolly guess what happened. At order time you said: "Make mine a veggie" So your co-worker sez to the sandwich guy: "Ok make one a veggie please"
You shoulda said: "veggie, no egg, no mayo"

Case closed, your welcome. To which the OP will reply that he said earlier in this thread that he told said coworker on numerous occassions that he didn't want egg or mayo on his sandwich, and that they should have known that. At which point I'll say "It's not your coworker's responsibility to ensure you get exactly what you want, it is yours, even if that means repeating "no egg, no mayo" every goddamn day for the rest of your life, so stop whining and shut the fuck up."

[Tony Montana]

Lets chant!

VEGGIE,NO EGGS,NO MAYO

VEGGIE, NO EGGS, NO MAYO

VEGGIE, NO EGGS, NO MAYO....

[Dissonance]

Originally posted by Annie-Xmas
I am a vegetarian who does not drink alcohol, sugar-sweetened drinks or decaf. If I ask for a vegetarian meal and get wine or Kool-Aid or Sanka, should I throw a fit? No, you should take it as the opportunity to overcome the one glaring flaw in your otherwise excellent diet. Drink the wine.

[prisoner6655321]

Originally posted by OpalCat
I run the vegetarian community on LiveJournal and also the website www.vegetarianstuff.com and I speak from a position of experience when I say that people like you DRIVE THE REST OF US VEGETARIANS CRAZY!!! You make people hate vegetarians. You make our lives much more difficult.

PLEASE OBTAIN A CLUE and carry it with you at all times. OpalCat

I beg you to read all of my replies to this thread. For the 17,592,392nd time, I am not the kind of vegetarian that makes life difficult for other vegetarians. I hate those militant preachy veg-heads as much as their meat-eating victims, and as much as you. Like I said earlier, it might take months before you will even notice that I am a vegetarian, I am so quiet about it in RL. The pit is here to vent. So please refrain from forming opinions about anybody based on what you read from or about them here.

[prisoner6655321]

Originally posted by Q.E.D.
To which the OP will reply that he said earlier in this thread that he told said coworker on numerous occassions that he didn't want egg or mayo on his sandwich, and that they should have known that. At which point I'll say "It's not your coworker's responsibility to ensure you get exactly what you want, it is yours, even if that means repeating "no egg, no mayo" every goddamn day for the rest of your life, so stop whining and shut the fuck up." Nah. By now I'd say, "you're (meaning Tony Montana) right." From now on it's...

VEGGIE,NO EGGS,NO MAYO!

[Zhen'ka]

kabbes,

I have a request. Please check your email. Thanks!

[Götterfunken]

Originally posted by OpalCat
Do most airlines do this? Have lacto-ovo meals available, I mean? I'll have to remember to ask next time I fly... I always assumed that since the vegetarian meal is the most bland and lame vegan fare imaginable that they only had the one vegetarian option. I think so. I've usually flown Delta (http://www.delta.com/travel/during_flight/dining/index.jsp), and I know they definitely offer a variety of vegetarian options, including: Vegetarian—Ovo Lacto, Asian (Hindu), and Pure Vegetarian. I've seen similar options on other airlines, and think the lacto-ovo option is pretty widespread if not universal.

If you just order "vegetarian," however, Delta will give you the vegan meal, that is, "Pure Vegetarian"--which is indeed boring and bland.

As a cheese-lover, I hate the "Pure Vegetarian" meal, and will never eat it again.

(now that I'm involved in a serious relationship with a meat-eater, this should be a moot point, as I've compromised my ethical principles and will eat fish or chicken when my SO prepares it. However, I still tend to prefer meatless, but cheese-filled menu options.)

[lezlers]

Don't wanna hijack, but I've got to respond to that last bit about compromising your ethical principals because you're in a relationship with a meat eater.

I've been in relationships with meat eaters, including living with one. There's no need to compromise your ethical principals for the sake of a relationship. If there's other reasons, fine, but don't hide behind "but he cooked a dinner for us!" If can't respect the fact that you're vegetarian, you're better off without him.

Hijack over, sorry 'bout that everyone.

[OpalCat]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321
OpalCat

I beg you to read all of my replies to this thread. For the 17,592,392nd time, I am not the kind of vegetarian that makes life difficult for other vegetarians. I hate those militant preachy veg-heads as much as their meat-eating victims, and as much as you. Like I said earlier, it might take months before you will even notice that I am a vegetarian, I am so quiet about it in RL. The pit is here to vent. So please refrain from forming opinions about anybody based on what you read from or about them here.

I have read all of your replies to this thread, and all it has convinced me of is that you're a bit of an idiot.

[Larry Mudd]

prisoner6655321: From now on it's...
VEGGIE,NO EGGS,NO MAYO! I swear I just heard a chorus of angels, there.

:applause:

[singular1]

How can vegans eat bread? Bread ingredients regularly include butter and/or fats, milk or milk powder and eggs. How are you going to know what's in this bread, if you're not actually buying the whole loaf and reading the labels?

[Liberal]

I once had a friend

who wouldn't eat an egg.

She wouldn't eat an egg.

She wouldn't eat an egg.

I once had a friend

who wouldn't eat an egg.

But she would eat turds and soap.

[lezlers]

Singular, sourdough bread is vegan. When in doubt, order sourdough.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally posted by lezlers
Singular, sourdough bread is vegan. When in doubt, order sourdough. It is?
Making the sourdough starter: Unless you are fortunate to find someone with an established sourdough starter, begin by making your own. Use 6-8 ounces of plain, organically produced cow or goat milk yogurt. From This sourdough bread recipe (http://www.geocities.com/newlibertyvillage/earthstar/sourdoughrecipe.htm). Yes, some "sourdough" bread uses artificial flavors, but you can never tell at a restaurant. Might want to rethink that idea.

[lezlers]

Oh, for cryin' out loud.

Every loaf of sourdough bread I've seen in my 6 years of being vegan, has been vegan. Every loaf that I've bought in every store and every resteraunt I've worked in. I'm willing to take my chances.

[lezlers]

http://www.care2.com/channels/solutions/guides/264

http://www.markshep.com/nonviolence/Sourdough.html

http://home.teleport.com/~packham/sourdo.htm

http://www.einfo-net.com/sourdough/recipe001.stm

Notice the last link contained 6 starter recipies, 4 of which were vegan. My point is, sourdough is more likely to be vegan than not. Your link also called for grinding your own flour. I doubt many resteraunts will be serving their bread, as I'm sure it's a good deal more expensive than a store bought brand.

Honestly, this is one of my pet peeves. People that go around looking to "catch" vegans eating something not vegan. Freakin' meat eaters will come up to me as I'm eating and question every single thing I have on my plate. "Is that vegan? Is that?" No assholes, I'm goin' off the wagon today.

:rolleyes:

*Whew* I feel better now.

[Mama Tiger]

Originally posted by kaylasdad99
Hey, Mama Tiger, if your cow-orker's Scary Green StuffTM looked substantially like this (http://www.happycookers.com/wc.dll/recipes/divulge/1197.html), then Spirulina is likely what it was.

EUREKA! That's IT!

And my reaction to it this time is the same as the first time. I don't CARE if it's healthy and nutritious, it looks like something my dog would throw up after eating week-old garbage!

[Q.E.D.]

Originally posted by lezlers
Honestly, this is one of my pet peeves. People that go around looking to "catch" vegans eating something not vegan. Freakin' meat eaters will come up to me as I'm eating and question every single thing I have on my plate. "Is that vegan? Is that?" No assholes, I'm goin' off the wagon today. In your haste to proselytize, you completely missed my point. Frankly, I don't care if you eat non-vegan foods from time to time or not, and I have no interest whatsoever in "catching" you. My point was you gave advice to someone without caveat, even though your own links indicate that a significant percentage of the breads in question aren't vegan.

My pet peeve is people twisting my points around and putting words in my mouth.

[Kaio]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321
Nononono! YOU understand the difference between vegan and vegetarian but you are not hearing that I am not talking about vegetarians or vegans. The average omnivorous human being does NOT understand the difference. If he does understand the difference then he would ask. He didn't so he doesn't understand the difference so to him...

Vegetarian=no animal products

Vegan=huh? What does that mean?

What planet do you live on? I've been vegetarian (ovo-lacto) for some-odd 15 years, and in my experience nearly everyone, unless they've been previously schooled by another vegetarian, assumes that vegetarian equals no MEAT -- that is, probably ovo-lacto -- not no animal products. Certainly your average Joe Schmoe has no idea what a vegan is, which is precisely why it doesn't occur to them that someone doesn't eat eggs, diary, honey, and the like.

If you want people do understand what you do and don't eat, just tell them, it's not like it takes a lot of time or effort. If I'm getting a meal from someone who's never cooked/bought one for me before, I automatically make myself specific: "I'm vegetarian, I'll eat eggs and dairy but no meat." Eight extra words. Goddess help me. :p

(And, unfertilized eggs as a pre-chicken? Yikes... you remind me of this freak I once has the displeasure of debating with who felt that I was actively participating in the murder of innocent children if I wasn't trying to get myself pregnant every time I ovulated. Aaaaggggghhhh.)

[Q.E.D.]

Originally posted by Kaio
(And, unfertilized eggs as a pre-chicken? Yikes... you remind me of this freak I once has the displeasure of debating with who felt that I was actively participating in the murder of innocent children if I wasn't trying to get myself pregnant every time I ovulated. Aaaaggggghhhh.) Did you ask him if he masturbated? By his definition, that's genocide.

[omni-not]

can you say...quicksand ?

[lezlers]

What was your point? The only thing you did is find some obscure recipe on the internet that called for dairy and smugly tell me I'd better "rethink that idea" that sourdough bread is vegan when the vast majority of the time, it is. I should have clarified and said "the vast majority of the time, sourdough bread is vegan" I'll concede that.

This is the second time in this thread you've run in like a eager little beaver to discredit something I've said, when the first time I was simply answering someone's question about what detox is, the answer itself being no different if you believe or don't believe in detoxing. That belief or disbelief doesn't change the
definition of it. For someone who honestly doesn't give a damn what I do and think about things, you certainly seem to have a problem with my sharing these things. If you have a differing opinion fine, share it, don't just throw out a link opposing whatever I'm saying and leave it at that. It's getting really annoying.

[lezlers]

That last post was directed at Q.E.D.

[Kaio]

Originally posted by Q.E.D.
Did you ask him if he masturbated? By his definition, that's genocide.

I believe I arched my eyebrows and backed quickly away. :)

BTW, semi-hijack, but going back to dairy production... I'd understood that you only needed to get a dairy cow pregnant once to bring her milk up, and that it would stay up as long as someone was pumping it. Is that not so then? Does it spontaneously subside eventually even though there is still something (the machine) "suckling" her? I can't see why this would happen as long as she was being fed a good diet. :confused:

And as long as I'm hijacking... kabbes, would you feel like going into more detail about what you eat whilst on detox? I tried a fruit fast once, for about 3 days, and was ravenously and constantly hungry by the middle of day 2. I can't even imagine trying to lengthen it to several weeks.

[catsix]

Kaio said:
BTW, semi-hijack, but going back to dairy production... I'd understood that you only needed to get a dairy cow pregnant once to bring her milk up, and that it would stay up as long as someone was pumping it. Is that not so then? Does it spontaneously subside eventually even though there is still something (the machine) "suckling" her? I can't see why this would happen as long as she was being fed a good diet.

It won't go on indefinitely, just like a human wouldn't produce milk indefinitely because someone kept sucking. The cow has evolved to only produce milk for its young for as long as that young is still a calf. If the cow doesn't get pregnant 18 months to 2 years after giving birth, it will stop producing milk.

Eventually the cow's body knows that the offspring has reached maturity or that the normal amount of time has passed for a calf to reach maturity, and that milk will stop being produced and the cow will be ready to get pregnant again.

[Dangerosa]

Most simple bread recipes I've used are vegan. Flour water yeast sugar oil. Bread really isn't a challenge to buy or bake vegan, unless you throw in a gluten allergy - then I stop by the co-op and buy it. Quick breads are different, but yeast based breads often don't contain milk or eggs. However, a lot of vegans I know don't eat refined sugar, then bread becomes more challenging to buy - no honey, no refined sugar, and you need to get it from the co-op or bake it yourself. Gluten free is also a challenge and easier from the co-op - as I can never remember which grains are gluten free.

Most of the vegetarian and vegans I know are co-op shoppers - and co-op shopping makes vegetarian, vegan, macrobiotic, organic, etc. much easier, as most co-ops (at least here) cater to less mainstream diets. Also, they do almost all of their eating out at a handful of locl restaurants that also cater to less mainstream diets.

However, the only sourdough starter recipe I've used is milk and flour - so I don't think that is that obscure. Lezler's own starter link had two recipes requiring milk - plus an info link that talked about the efficiency of using milk to attract the bacteria necessary for starter. Bread in general may or may not be vegan and anyone who cares should read the label.

I've also noticed that some of my vegan friends are obsessive label readers and pretty militant about not getting animal products into their bodies. Others are vegan under the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, especially eating out or over at friends - where they will assume that basic bread is vegan and that their french fries have been cooked in vegetable oil.

[kabbes]

Goodness, I might need an "Ask the detox freak" thread at this rate!

OK, here's a typical meal:

Put a couple of tablespoons of fresh vegetable stock in a wok and heat. Add chopped onion and some of the following, depending on what kind of meal you're making: garlic, ginger, dried ginger, chilli peppers, paprika, cayenne pepper, etc.

Cook for a couple of minutes.

Add some sliced or chopped vegetables, e.g. courgette (or zucchini, I think you may call it), carrot, broccoli, aubergine (eggplant?) or whatever else you fancy. Cook for a couple of minutes.

Maybe at this point you want to add some lentils or other pulses.

Add a tin or two of tomatoes and bring to the simmer for 10 mins or so.

At this point, add chickpeas if you're including them, lemon/lime juice/zest if you're using that and any herbs you plan to use (fresh or dried, depending on the effect you're going for - e.g. basil, rosemary, thyme, oregano, dill, parsley, sage etc)

Serve with brown rice or wheat-free, yeast-free pasta.

See? Easy. It takes less than 30 mins to prepare from packet to plate and tastes good. It takes a week for the palate to get used to not having artificial flavourings thrown at it, but once you do food tastes much better.

Also, you get less hungry! Give it a fortnight and you're body simply stops craving so much food. Ordinarily I end up snacking all day on the free biscuits we get at work and I'm still permanently hungry. After 2 weeks of detox, I can eat nothing except my soup for lunch all day at work and not be hungry at all.

For snacks, you have fruit, dried fruit (e.g. dried figs) (provided they haven't been dried using sulphur dioxide or whatever the hell it is they use), nuts, wheat-free, yeast-free bread.

Oh - soups. Soups are great. Just cook lots of vegetables in lots of stock with lots of herbs and then blend half of it. Simple.

The biggest trouble is making non-tomato based recipes. That can be a struggle.

And sometimes you'd kill for a curry.

pan

[kabbes]

I should add though: yes. After about a week, you're incredibly hungry! That's the worst point. It's better from there and, as I say, after 2 weeks you're not at all hungry. After 6 weeks you don't really want to stop as you feel so good but after about 8-10 weeks you are seriously bored with the paucity of choice.

At that point I tend to struggle on for a week or so but then give up and retoxify, shall we say, for 3-6 months. And let me tell you this: unless you've deprived yourself of curry for three months, you have no idea how good it can taste...

Obviously the best idea would be to live your whole life eating well but not so obsessively as the detox. But I like my chicken saag and pizza too much to give it up, so find this a reasonable compromise. YMMV.

pan

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

The OP does have a point. IANAV, but when I started working out, and used to read the muscle mags, I would see the term "ovo-lacto-vegetarian", which meant a dairy-and-egg consuming vegetarian. So if someone said "vegetarian", I assumed they meant strict vegetarian (=vegan).

[Guinastasia]

Oh, well, Kabbes, that doesn't really sound like the detox I'm thinking of-that just sounds like you need to cut back on junk food and processed stuff and eat good, simple food. If that's a detox, then that sounds good.

[The_Raven]

Howyadoin,

I'm thinking of using this thread as part of a study attempting to disprove that consuming hormone-laden animal products increase aggression levels in humans. Man, this is more fun than a Libertarian Party convention!

Can I be a ovo-lacto-pisco-chickeno-nacho-Oreo-vegetarian? Cool!!

...but if you serve me rice...

I'LL CLAW YOUR FUCKING EYES OUT!!!!!!11!!1!!

-Rav

:)

[kabbes]

Well now I'm curious. Guin, what kind of detox are you thinking of?

FTR, here is a list of some of the things you have to cut out on the detox: All meat. Yes, that includes poultry, fish and any animal protein.
All dairy. Yes: milk, cheese and yoghurt.
Eggs and anything made from them.
Wheat (which is the cereal crop that we're not so good at digesting. Corn and rye, for example, are still fine though)
Tofu, quorn and other microorganism and soy-based food
That includes anything made from yeast, folks.
Additives of ANY kind. Even if they claim to be "natural" (yeah right). Look at the ingredients -- if you don't recognise each of them as a proper food, play it safe. This is tough - you would not believe how many foods add "maize starch".
tea, coffee and other stimulants
alcohol and other depressantsBasically, you just want to eat organic, wholesome foods that your body will thank you for.

I finished one about a month ago. Right now I'm glad I'm not on one!

pan

[Tony Montana]

All meat. Yes, that includes poultry, fish and any animal protein.


Forgive me my ignorance, but I thought detox meant the removal of toxins.

How would cutting out fresh wild Alaska King salmon help in this?

Is this a new(nu,noo whateva) -age thing?

[Kaio]

Originally posted by Tony Montana
Forgive me my ignorance, but I thought detox meant the removal of toxins.

How would cutting out fresh wild Alaska King salmon help in this?

Is this a new(nu,noo whateva) -age thing?

Fish is known to contain trace levels of mercury due to water contamination. IIRC, mercury is one of those things that never flushes out of your body, so you want to eat such things sparingly anyway.

[kabbes]

(Whisper it: To be honest, I've never really been convinced by the cutting out of fish).

Saying that, too much meat is very bad for your digestive tract and your state of health generally. Too much red meat, for example, means more than about one steak a week. I'm not sure what constitutes too much fish, but presumably there is a limit for that too.

There's a load of new age claptrap surrounding detoxing, so it's hard to get through to the heart of the issue. Detox fundamentalists will start talking about how the whole body's health is derived from the colon and suchlike and before you know it facts are distorted by all kinds of dodgy claims. Don't let that stop you though -- the fact is that removing toxins from your body (both of the chemical and the plain old "body can't handle so much of this" kind) makes you feel pretty damn good.

pan

[kabbes]

Sorry Kaio, I don't know why I didn't mention your post. Your answer is very interesting and certainly something to take into consideration. Cheers.

[prisoner6655321]

Originally posted by OpalCat
I have read all of your replies to this thread, and all it has convinced me of is that you're a bit of an idiot. Well dang OpalCat. That saddens me. I try to be a nice guy then a real jerk shows me how closed minded some people can be. I might have involved myself with your website but now I don't think I want to. You're no doubt thinking you don't want someone "like me" visiting your site. Well if no one "like me" visits your site then your community must be full of jerks cause I'm a nice guy and I never force my beliefs on others. I may fly off the handle on occasion in the pit or accuse the wrong person in the heat of the moment, but it doesn't make me an idiot and posting flames in the pit doesn't mean I am that way in real life. Apparantly there is a second type of annoying vegetarian: the stubborn, judgemental, defensive type. Yeah, so I'm also being judgemental and defensive right now, but I'm being wrongly accused so I have every right to be.

[Greyson3]

Originally posted by kabbes


There's a load of new age claptrap surrounding detoxing, so it's hard to get through to the heart of the issue. Detox fundamentalists will start talking about how the whole body's health is derived from the colon and suchlike and before you know it facts are distorted by all kinds of dodgy claims. Don't let that stop you though -- the fact is that removing toxins from your body (both of the chemical and the plain old "body can't handle so much of this" kind) makes you feel pretty damn good.


What toxins do you mean?

What are they called?
Are they oil-soluble?
Where do they come from?
What do they do?

How does fasting purge them from the body?

[Götterfunken]

Originally posted by lezlers
Don't wanna hijack, but I've got to respond to that last bit about compromising your ethical principals because you're in a relationship with a meat eater.

I've been in relationships with meat eaters, including living with one. There's no need to compromise your ethical principals for the sake of a relationship. If there's other reasons, fine, but don't hide behind "but he cooked a dinner for us!" If can't respect the fact that you're vegetarian, you're better off without him.
Well, vegetarianism is just one of several things I've compromised for this relationship. This is not the place to go into all of that, though, and I'm not going to start a separate thread, so here's my response:

Before I met my SO, I'd always maintained that I would be vegetarian--no meat or fish, and preferably free-range eggs and milk whenever I had a choice--since I first went vegetarian when I was 18. I figured I could live with a meat-eater so long as we could respect each other's perspectives and ethical choices.

But then I met her, and once we were practically living together (about five years ago), I found it wasn't so easy to practice the kind of lifestyle that I had been living as a single guy. For one thing, most of my meals had been some variety of pasta. I'm not the most imaginative cook, but pasta has always been a favorite staple of mine.

She doesn't like pasta very much. Her diet's always been fairly meat-centered, with pork being a particular favorite.

It didn't make much sense for us to be fixing individual meals every evening, but, like I mentioned, I'm not a great chef and my offerings of mainly pasta or rice-based dishes weren't all that satisfactory. So I compromised by eating poultry and fish that she prepares, as she is a much better cook than I am (I try to help out in other ways, fixing rice, setting up/clearing off the table and doing the dishes, etc.--but, really, she does more cooking than I do, so it's more than just a case of her fixing "a dinner for us").

I did stand firm on not eating pork or beef, and she's respected this choice. She sometimes eats pork, and I don't bother her about that. I just say that I don't eat mammal.

Clearly, I had to sacrifice more than she did for this particular aspect of our relationship. You're right that one should not feel it necessary to compromise their ethical principles for a relationship. But for this relationship, I made the decision that she was worth making the sacrifice for, and that's something that I, and I alone, have to live with.

[Guinastasia]

Kabbes-the ones mentioned in some links people gave-enemas, fasting, etc.

Maybe I should show my dad that recipe, it looks like something he'd like.

[Tony Montana]

TM opens can of worms

Originally posted by Kaio
Fish is known to contain trace levels of mercury due to water contamination. IIRC, mercury is one of those things that never flushes out of your body, so you want to eat such things sparingly anyway.

Got a cite?

Maybe that applies to farmed salmon or canned fish from overseas. Or fish from the East river. (http://www.atpm.com/7.01/new-york-ii/east-river.shtml)

You wouldn't catch me eating that stuff anyhow.

I eat wild Alaska salmon.

[Tony Montana]

That IT!! ::waves fist:: :mad:

I'm starting a thread regarding this crap about cutting fish outta my diet is supposed to help "de-tox" my body.

Pure nu-age bullshit

My People have been eating Alaska fish for thousands of years.

If you wanna eat like a gerbil and stick a tube up your ass fine, thats your thing.

Don't mislead and bamboozle others into your deranged "de-tox" rituals.

[Kaio]

Originally posted by Tony Montana
TM opens can of worms



Got a cite?

Maybe that applies to farmed salmon or canned fish from overseas. Or fish from the East river. (http://www.atpm.com/7.01/new-york-ii/east-river.shtml)

You wouldn't catch me eating that stuff anyhow.

I eat wild Alaska salmon.

CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/parenting/04/12/fish.pregnant/) good enough?

How about the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2518311.stm)?

Those were just the top two hits on Google when I typed in "fish mercury". Granted I would expect some fishing locations to be more contaminated than others, but also it's not like one ocean is entirely contained from another on this planet.

FTR I first gleaned the information from a friend's doctor -- said friend has the World's Most Screwed Up Digestive Tract (long story) and has to eat massive amounts of protein since most of it passes through him undigested... his doc told him to go sparingly on the fish to meet this requirement due to mercury.

Anyway, why the temper tantrum? There's no conspiracy to make you detox or anything. Don't want to, don't do it.

[Kaio]

Oh, forgot to say...

Sure peole have been eating fish for thousands of years. But we've only recently started dumping waste mercury into the oceans, too. Quite a few things were a lot more clean back then.

[OpalCat]

Originally posted by prisoner6655321
Well dang OpalCat. That saddens me. I try to be a nice guy then a real jerk shows me how closed minded some people can be. I might have involved myself with your website but now I don't think I want to. You're no doubt thinking you don't want someone "like me" visiting your site. Well if no one "like me" visits your site then your community must be full of jerks cause I'm a nice guy and I never force my beliefs on others. I may fly off the handle on occasion in the pit or accuse the wrong person in the heat of the moment, but it doesn't make me an idiot and posting flames in the pit doesn't mean I am that way in real life. Apparantly there is a second type of annoying vegetarian: the stubborn, judgemental, defensive type. Yeah, so I'm also being judgemental and defensive right now, but I'm being wrongly accused so I have every right to be.

My assessment of you as being an idiot stems from your constant assertion that mainstream folk think that vegetarian = no animal products at all.

[Tony Montana]

Originally posted by Kaio
CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/parenting/04/12/fish.pregnant/) good enough?


from CNN:

The Environmental Working Group says there are some fish considered safe for pregnant women, including farm-raised trout and catfish, shrimp, fish sticks, flounder (summer), wild pacific salmon, croaker, mid-Atlantic blue crab and haddock


Underlined mine.


Granted I would expect some fishing locations to be more contaminated than others, but also it's not like one ocean is entirely contained from another on this planet.


Thats akin to saying dont eat Florida oranges because the environment in Mexico City is bad.


his doc told him to go sparingly on the fish to meet this requirement due to mercury.


Don't implicate all fish in your hysteria. Alaska fish is still pristine.


Anyway, why the temper tantrum? There's no conspiracy to make you detox or anything.

Don't want to, don't do it.

Detox shmetox, that smells...fishy.

My sister runs a charter fishing business here in Alaska. So when you make statements such as this:
"Fish is known to contain trace levels of mercury due to water contamination."

Of course I'm gonna call bullshit, and point out that you wrongly implicate all fish in your vegetarian/vegan/nuage propaganda.

[DocCathode]

Originally posted by Tony Montana
My sister runs a charter fishing business here in Alaska. So when you make statements such as this:
"Fish is known to contain trace levels of mercury due to water contamination."


Unfortunately, I don't know where I left the transcript. But this very subject was debated on Sealab:2021

"Did you know that a single fish contains as much mercury as an oral thermometer? (GULP)Mmmmmmm. Mercury. Most flavorful of all the transitional metals."

[Kaio]

Originally posted by Tony Montana

Thats akin to saying dont eat Florida oranges because the environment in Mexico City is bad.


Not quite. As far as I know, pesticides on oranges don't flow through the ambient medium (air -- unless you're suggesting that the orange peels themselves "flow" :p ). On the other hand, contaminents in water DO flow, right along with the water.

No doubt Alaska waters are cleaner than a number of other places in the world -- I never said otherwise. Although I think "pristine" may be a bit of a stretch, especially since the Alaskan coastline has seen at least one or two oil spills that I can recall offhand (the Valdeez was one... or however you spell that). But again, we were talking about fish in general (at least kabbes and I were), not Alaskan fish in particular.

And there's still no conspiracy to force you or anyone to detox. :D

[Tony Montana]

Originally posted by Kaio
Not quite. As far as I know, pesticides on oranges don't flow through the ambient medium (air -- unless you're suggesting that the orange peels themselves "flow" :p ). On the other hand, contaminents in water DO flow, right along with the water.

No doubt Alaska waters are cleaner than a number of other places in the world -- I never said otherwise. Although I think "pristine" may be a bit of a stretch,


Have you ever been here?


especially since the Alaskan coastline has seen at least one or two oil spills that I can recall offhand (the Valdeez was one... or however you spell that).


Alaska has more coastline than the entire contiguous United states. That spill no doubt had a devastating effect on the surrounding area. But it is so removed from Southeast AK and had zero effect on its wildlife (SE AK)that it may as well have been on the east coast.


But again, we were talking about fish in general (at least kabbes and I were), not Alaskan fish in particular.

And there's still no conspiracy to force you or anyone to detox. :D [/B]

Detox quackery aside.

Lets rewind,shall we?

When I asked: How would cutting out fresh wild Alaska King salmon help in this?

Then you answered: Fish is known to contain trace levels of mercury due to water contamination.

I couldn't let that stand, misinformation and rampant hysteria regarding the safety of the last frontiers fish just doesn't sit well with me. Especially on a board that is dedicated to fighting ignorance.

If you ever visit my state email me. I'll show you a salmon river in a back yard so immense and remote, I guarantee the last thing you would be thinking is "this fish is polluted"

I'm done here.

[OpalCat]

So by your logic, everyone doing a detox should investigate each individual piece of food for toxins, rather than just doing the far simpler removing of certain things by group? :rolleyes:

(Me, now I say it's great that Alaska's fish are so healthy. Let's not kill 'em and let them stay healthy!)