Wal-Mart clerk tries to kick my sister and her seeing eye dog out of the store.

[Heloise]

Some people's lack of common sense just has me baffled.

So, two of my sisters go to Wally World in Podunk, Oklahoma. One of my sisters has about 5 percent vision in her left eye. If you don't know how much that is, close one eye, cover the other one with three fingers, and try to look out of it. That still might be more than what her vision is. She went blind from misdiagnosis of glaucoma and then, mistreatment. She was 37.

So, they go into the store with her very sweet seeing eye dog, Heidi. A very smart German Shepherd. Heidi has a sign on her that says, "Working Dog, Please Do Not Touch." My sister has on the "blind person sunglasses" and my other sister is quite obviously explaining to her everything around her, what the smells are, how busy the place is, etc.

Mr. Brilliant comes up and says, "You aren't allowed to have dogs here. Take it outside."

My sighted sister says, "Um, no, this is a seeing eye dog."

"Store policy. We don't allow pets. You'll have to take it out, NOW."

"This isn't a pet. This is a working dog. She can go anywhere."

"No, she can't. You need to leave."

"I want to see the manager."

He gets huffy, angry, is very irate. Storms off to get the manager. Manager comes, sees what's happening, and goes apoplectic. Apologies galore. Clerk gets even more red-faced. No apologies, nothing. Well, he didn't have much of a chance, because as soon as the manager apologized, he turned on the clerk.

You know, even if this guy didn't know about seeing eye dogs, don't you think common sense would have told him that a blind person in the store with a properly labeled dog would have some kind of rights?

Stupidity baffles me.

[Doomtrain]

Petty dictators get blinded by their own ego. And there's no mistaking a seeing eye dog, those signs are huge and cover like every part of the dog but their head and their feet.

[friedo]

Good for the manager. I hope the dumbass clerk got fired.

[Mama Tiger]

At least the manager was able to see what an idiot he was. It's amazing how stupid people are about guide dogs, though, isn't it? I've had blind friends with guide dogs, and never ceased to be astonished at what they go through. How can there be ANYONE in this country who doesn't know guide dogs are allowed EVERYWHERE?

[Krisfer the Cat]

My sympatheses Heloise.

My ex was blind and had a guide dog.( In truth I loved the dog more than him but that another thread!) We could get into the strangest places with him .. and then all of a sudden we'd walk into a restaurant and be told "You cant bring that dog in here." My ex was a very calm man and he'd explain things and offer a card that he carried that was printed with the relevant law. Usually it worked with no problem.. but once I very nearly called the police to come explain it to them. We finally got in but then the harrassment began, shitty service, messed up bill, stupid cashier. We should have complained but we were young..

I must say hotel managers are the best for seeing that the guide dog is properly taken care of.. we had one that even offered to send a staff member up to take him out.

Better luck at Wal mart next time. Hopefully the same clerk is at the front.. your sisters can smile and wave sweetly to him;)

[Krisfer the Cat]

Originally posted by Mama Tiger
ANYONE in this country who doesn't know guide dogs are allowed EVERYWHERE?

Well actually not everywhere... the ICU at the hospital requested he not go in.. fur in ventilators is a real hazard!

And the big cat house attendent at our zoo asked us to talk him out as he was agitating the tigers to no end!

Oh yeah... I gots lots of stories about that dog... I SO miss him...

[Heloise]

I hear you, Krisfer the Cat, my sister has had some people be really awful to her, although she's had some really nice ones as well.

What never ceases to amaze me is that some people, for some reason or other, refuse to believe that she's actually blind. Maybe because it happened later in life, I don't know, but some people still insist that she's faking it. And then, they'll do mean things to her, trying to prove she can see. I don't even want to write about some of the embarrassing situations that she's been put in by people that just suck!

[Snake]

I know this is gonna sound rude , but i honestly don't mean it to be . Are blind people with guide dogs required to carry bags to clean up after these dogs ? What happens if " Tippy " decides to take a dump in the shampoo isle of Walmart ? What if Tippy pees on the booth at Denny's ? Seems a bit unfair to require stores to clean up dog dirt . And if i was eating at Lonestar and looked across the isle at a shedding dog , nice as it may be , I'd enjoy my dinner a bit less wondering if a stray hair will soon land on my steak .
I understand blind people have special needs , but isn't there a way to find a middle ground ?

[Mama Tiger]

You know, they really do NOT give guide dogs to people who can see. That's fairly obvious. Person+guide dog = blind. Of course, expecting people to appreciate the obvious is probably, at the least, naive of me.

Do people talk to the folks with your sister like your sister is deaf and retarded as well as blind? I'll never forget walking into a restaurant with one friend and the hostess asking me, in that piercing stage whisper that could be heard by everyone in the restaurant, "Can she read Braille? Do you think she wants a Braille menu?" My answer: "I don't know, why don't you ask HER? She's blind, not deaf!" Okay, so maybe it wasn't the most courteous response, but she was being so RUDE! (My friend liked my answer....which is good because she's one of those blind folks who'll kick your butt if she thinks you're treating her wrong!)

So where are pictures of Heidi so we can appreciate her beauty and intelligence???

[Marley23]

Seems a bit unfair to require stores to clean up dog dirt .
Not as unfair as preventing blind people from using stores, restaurants, and other public places. Or at least, I imagine that's the story from the Americans with Disabilities Act perspective.

I understand blind people have special needs , but isn't there a way to find a middle ground ?
What middle ground are you proposing? That your concern about stray dog hair trumps a blind woman's need to eat in public or use a supermarket?

[Doomtrain]

Originally posted by Mama Tiger
You know, they really do NOT give guide dogs to people who can see.


I think some seeing people get the guide/helper dogs to train and stuff. Not 100% sure.

[typhoon]

Originally posted by Snake
I know this is gonna sound rude , but i honestly don't mean it to be . Are blind people with guide dogs required to carry bags to clean up after these dogs ? What happens if " Tippy " decides to take a dump in the shampoo isle of Walmart ? What if Tippy pees on the booth at Denny's ? Seems a bit unfair to require stores to clean up dog dirt . And if i was eating at Lonestar and looked across the isle at a shedding dog , nice as it may be , I'd enjoy my dinner a bit less wondering if a stray hair will soon land on my steak .
I understand blind people have special needs , but isn't there a way to find a middle ground ?
It's not like these dogs aren't thoroughly trained (this (http://www.seeingeye.org/GuidedTour.asp?sc=tr) is the web site of one company that trains guide dogs, with some information on the process). I'm pretty sure that most blind people are courteous enough not to let their dogs shit in anyone's store (especially since it'd be hard to tell if anyone saw you...). As for shedding, it's not a problem for a well groomed dog.

[Heloise]

Originally posted by GMRyujin

I think some seeing people get the guide/helper dogs to train and stuff. Not 100% sure.


Yes, they do, but I don't think that's what she meant. My sister isn't a sighted dog trainer, pretending to be blind so she can get special privileges.

[Doomtrain]

True, true, but that's why it's a nitpick.

[Krisfer the Cat]

Can I field the question about the dog relieving itself?

Guide Dogs, at least the ones from Guide Dogs for the Blind out of San Rafael, Ca. are trained NOT to relieve themselves when their harnesses are on. Properly trained dogs can go quite a few hours between potty breaks ( And a hell of a lot longer than I can!) Their human companions are supposed to take them for potty breaks as often as possible.

As far as hair goes, gimme a break. You are far more likely to get a server's hair in your food but you don't seem to patronize restaurants run by skinheads. Our dog would crawl under the table and lie there quietly until we were done eating.

Mama Tiger: that was the thing that brought my blood to a boil the fastest. That and servers that would ask ME what he wanted! We got so that when they would talk to me I would sign "What?" to him. He would sign some nonsense to me and I would sign nonsense back to him. Then J, my ex, would say "Well *I* want this and she will have this. Many a server skulked away in embarassment!

[Krisfer the Cat]

Originally posted by GMRyujin

I think some seeing people get the guide/helper dogs to train and stuff. Not 100% sure.


I don't know about anywhere else but in Utah the dogs are trained by 4-F kids. Those dogs can go ALMOST anywhere as long as they have their identifying 4-F "coats"(for lack of a better term since its 2 am) on. The kids with them are not allowed to pretend to be blind.

Anyone who tricks a blind person just to see if they are really blind is truly a maggot. And not worthy of inclusion in the human race.

[thatDDperson]

Tell 'em to go back to Walmart and walk by the clerk chanting "We called Bentonville". If his ass unclenches in a month, he'll be lucky.

The Walmart in Cleveland, Texas had to pay a HUGE amount of money to get a woman to drop a discrimination claim over the use of a service animal. Three million comes to mind. Wally World's lawyers are REAL careful about this issue. Now.

[Snooooopy]

Originally posted by Krisfer the Cat
As far as hair goes, gimme a break. You are far more likely to get a server's hair in your food but you don't seem to patronize restaurants run by skinheads.

I love going to Jack Boot In The Box!

[Coldfire]

Isn't Wal Mart going belly up anyway? Sue the ever lovin' snot out of them. :)

Seriously, what a horrid story. Well, it all ended well, and the manager was smart about it (although he could perhaps have offered $50 of free shopping or something along those lines, I suppose). But what an idiot that clerk is! How old was this brainiac?

What always amazes me about seeing eye dogs is that they're so calm. There's this blind guy in my neighbourhood, and I sometimes watch him shop with his dog. She'll take him across busy streets, around kids riding their bikes on the sidewalk illegally, she'll stop or move away when she sees someone is on a collision course with them... and all the while, her tail's wagging and she's giving you this grin. Almost like she's proud to be able to do all of that! Well, she should be. That's a German Shepherd too, BTW.

I donate to a training institute for seeing eye dogs regularly. Think I'll make another donation, after reading this story.

[OpalCat]

*splort*

POF'd (http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/pofunnies.adp)

[Baker]

AT a deli I once worked at we had a lot of regulars that had certain days of the week they came in on. Fridays I remember two in particular. "The Friday Mothers" who came in for coffee and dessert, and let their spawn run all over and be noisy. And "The Lawyer", a guy with a a seeing eye dog(black Labrador), whose dog lay quietly under the table at his feet. That dog was better trained than the kids and I rather serve a roomful of people with service dogs, than a roomful of neglectful parents.

I fully approve of service dogs being allowed to go anywhere, barring the previous examples like an ICU. But there's one place I might expect to see dogs and don't remember ever noticing one, and that's in church. Most disable people I've seen in church have either a friend or family member to act as a guide, not a dog. I'd more than welcome a service dog there, but do some people have reservations about it?

[Krisfer the Cat]

Hi Baker..

Me again, can't freakin sleep. J didn't take his dog, I am avoiding the dogs name coz its the name of a horribly obnoxious SDMB poster, to church mainly because the pews were so close together that there wasn't really room for "Puppy Paws" to get comfortable for the hour or so that they'd be there. I don't know if that was just his church or what, but my experience is that there isn't much room there. And if you belong to a church where the congregation stands up often it can mean some stepped on puppy paws.

And oddly enough a lot(obviously not all) of blind people's family members dont really trust the dogs. Or they get jealous.. its very strange..

And sometimes dogs dream... imagine what a dreaming dog under a pew who starts to howl will do to a Seventh Day Adventist congregation.. chaos ensues;)

[LurkMeister]

Originally posted by Krisfer the Cat
Mama Tiger: that was the thing that brought my blood to a boil the fastest. That and servers that would ask ME what he wanted! We got so that when they would talk to me I would sign "What?" to him. He would sign some nonsense to me and I would sign nonsense back to him. Then J, my ex, would say "Well *I* want this and she will have this. Many a server skulked away in embarassment!
You are sick and twisted; I like that in a person. :)

On the subject of non-blind people having guide dogs: I have seen people in wheelchairs with "assistance dogs" (I guess you can't really call them guide dogs). I'm not sure exactly what their duties were; I mostly just saw them walking alongside or ahead of the wheelchair, and I didn't know any of the people well enough to ask. The dogs were wearing harnesses and usually some sort of "I'm working" sign, so they definately weren't just pets.

[flodnak]

Originally posted by LurkMeister
On the subject of non-blind people having guide dogs: I have seen people in wheelchairs with "assistance dogs" (I guess you can't really call them guide dogs). I'm not sure exactly what their duties were; I mostly just saw them walking alongside or ahead of the wheelchair, and I didn't know any of the people well enough to ask. The dogs were wearing harnesses and usually some sort of "I'm working" sign, so they definately weren't just pets. The specific duties of a service dog will depend on what the owner needs. One man I know with a service dog is a quadraplegic with limited use of his arms. His service dog is trained to do small things to assist him; for instance, certain doors at his house and the office building where he works are adapted so the dog can open them, and the dog can also pick up objects he might drop. But more important, if he falls or has bad spasms, he says a command that tells the dog to sit down and make one hell of a racket until some human comes over to help. Although he'll never be able to live alone again, having a service dog allows him to be alone for short periods of time, something that would be risky otherwise.

[ILovCoffee]

We have a patient who trains assistant dogs and guide dogs.

When I worked retail there was this blind person that regurally came in the store that was disrespectful to his dog. :rolleyes: He would yell at, jerk the harness of, and kick the dog. :( I was totally suprised that the dog didn't have "an accident" while crossing the street with this SOB. I believe that the dog knew he was a professional and took pride in doing its job well. It would get a slightly perplexed expression though when its charge would mistreat it. :mad:

[Master Wang-Ka]

When someone puts it as elegantly as GMRyujin did, there's not a lot you can add to that.

Although I would say that a blind person who mistreats his dog is about as dumb... or dumber... than a Walmart clerk who tries to throw a blind person out of a store. Abusing one's seeing-eye-dog is NOT smart, I should think...

[Coldfire]

All right, bad joke alert. IlovCoffee's story reminded me of it.

The other day, I saw this blind man walking down the street with his seeing eye dog. The dog must not have been paying attention too well, because he led his master straight into a street light. The blind man cursed, but carried on. Almost like it did it on purpose, the dog made the man bump into the NEXT street light as well!
Whereupon the blind man sat down, and got a doggie treat from his pocket.
I walked over, perplexed. "Hang on sir", I said, "surely, you're not goign to REWARD that stupid dog for making you bump into two street lights in a row??"
"Reward him, no!", the man replied, "but I need to know where his damn head is, before I can kick his fucking ass!!"

All right, that's my tasteless joke of the day. :)

[Elenfair]

I remember posting a thread about my own troubles training seeing eye and service dogs. Some people are just idiotic. In Canada, they can get seriously fined if they refuse entry - I'm sure it's similar in the states. Your disabilities act is particularily impressive!

I'm glad the situation got sorted out quickly!

As for guide dog abuse, we have seen it a lot - some people, having recently lost their sight, take it out on their dogs. Dogs make mistakes, they're not perfect, and they're certainly not 100% reliable when guiding. Sure, we try to make them that way... but they're still *dogs*... they have their bad days too!

snake According to the law, guide and service animals are to be considered the same as a wheelchair, crutches, a cane for the blind. Would you see yourself saying that wheelchairs are a hazard (they have wheels and can run over people's feet! Especially childrens'!) in restaurants? There's no question of "middle ground" here.

Frankly, guide and service dogs are well looked after. Chances of you getting a dog hair in your steak far more remote than having the chef sneeze on it before it came out from the kitchen. It's not like the dogs are running around, shaking out their coats. Most of the time, when I've had a pup in training in a restaurant, people didn't even *notice* he/she was there until we left...

Just be glad you're not yet dealing with Guide Horses (yes, they exist - miniature pigmy horses!) - which, actually, are probably the best kind of guiding animal around in the world, but I digress.

LurkMeister there's a wide variety of service dogs. Some dogs guide autistic kids, just like a guide dog. Others assist wheelchair-bound folks and do fun tasks such as: opening doors, getting the phone when it rings (cordless, of course), picking up stuff that's dropped, handling money (coins and bills), loading/unloading carts, getting things off shelves (like in grocery stores - we use lazer pointers to point out what they are to grab), doing the laundry (loading/transfering/unloading washers/dryers - all front load of course!), retrieving things from the fridge... all very useful tasks.

Some service dogs work with epileptic patients, as we have discovered that some dogs can actually predict the coming of a seizure. They also offer protection if someone *does* have a seizure. They are often called "Seizure Alert Dogs".

Some work with the deaf - "Hearing Dogs" - they alert at the person's name (by putting a paw up on them, or climbing into their lap if they are small dogs), fire alarms, phones ringing, doorbells, traffic, car horns, that sort of thing. They serve as a person's ears. Many work with sign language.

Some dogs are now being used to work with psychiatric patients - to remind them to take their meds, to carry the meds, to provide a "touch with reality" with some, or to provide the vehicle for them to leave the house (in the case of severe anxiety). These dogs aren't yet recognised as service animals, but they may well be soon.

In order to be recognised as a service animal, dogs need to pass specific tests and/or come out of a recognised school or training institute. That way, people can't just train their own and take it to the store. In some places, people DO train their own service dog (I knew a young paraplegic woman who trained a lab for herself) and then have them tested. Talk about a wonderful partnership!

My current working animals work with disabled children who don't qualify for a service dog of their own because they are considered too "low functionning". we work with them until they *do* qualify. It's very rewarding work, and our training organisation only keeps the top 1% of its trainee dogs to work in this program. I'm blessed to have had two such working dogs live and work with me over the last 8 years. All the others I've trained have been placed with disabled adults and are contributing to every day life and autonomy.

Workings animals are... gifts, from whoever you wish to thank (God, people, whatever.) They willingly and happily serve, and give people their autonomy back. Some people don't understand that - cultural differences sometimes paint dogs as "unclean"... but you know, a few months ago in Ottawa, I had Zap on the bus with me when a young woman wearing a veil and her young boy stepped onto the bus: I moved the dog a little so they wouldn't come into contact with her (it's a cultural thing with many practicing muslims). They sat opposite me, and the young lady smiled, and thanked me. Then, she proceeded to explain to her son that this was a working dog, and that it would someday help someone who was disabled and needed the help.

Talk about bridging difference, eh.

[Kalhoun]

I once saw a couple who faked being blind to get their dog on a cross-country bus trip. They pulled it off beautifully. Doggy was way cool, but these people were obviously (to ME anyway) not vision impaired.

[Elenfair]

Originally posted by Kalhoun
I once saw a couple who faked being blind to get their dog on a cross-country bus trip. They pulled it off beautifully. Doggy was way cool, but these people were obviously (to ME anyway) not vision impaired.

Must have cost them an arm and a leg to get a harness without proper school/group identification.

Some suppliers will do it... but even so, when you book a trip, you still need to present ID...

Eh. Bah. If the animal was well behaved, I guess, who really cares... still...

*shrug*

[lieu]

So they get their dog on the bus but then they can't read for the duration of a cross country trip. That's a helluva tradeoff.

[Kalhoun]

The harness didn't look "standard" to me. I don't think the bus driver knew enough about it to spot it. And Lieu, I know they bided their time by smoking pot in the bathroom.

[Heloise]

To answer some of the questions:

The Wal-Mart clerk was about 25, 26.

My sister brought Heidi to church, she sat quietly on the floor between the pews. The only problem was, she liked to "sing" along with the rest of the congregation. From what I understand, she was better than most of the humans and they got jealous. So, my sister quit bringing her. :)

As stated before, there are service dogs of all kinds. I had the pleasure of briefly owning a dog whose disabled owner had passed away. A basset hound, actually. One of the best, most intelligent animals I've ever known and I'm still heartbroken, after nearly 6 years, of having to give her away.

There was a Disney t.v. show a few years ago about how the seeing eye dogs came about. It was really good, and the fact that it actually has relevance in my life now is especially poignant. Did anyone else see it, or do you know what I'm talking about?

[romansperson]

Originally posted by Elenfair
Just be glad you're not yet dealing with Guide Horses (yes, they exist - miniature pigmy horses!) - which, actually, are probably the best kind of guiding animal around in the world, but I digress.

Actually, there are a few guide horses in the US - this one was raised on a farm near where I live:

http://www.guidehorse.org/people.htm

I hadn't seen this horse at the mall myself, but I know a couple folks who did - very funny sight, a horse in the mall wearing sneakers!

I am wondering about the process of housebreaking a horse ...

[Elenfair]

Eh. Charming. And a little silly, really.

There are lots of guidedog harnesses out there, and interestingly enough you can usually recognize the school the dog came from according to its harness.

Canadian Guide Dogs for the Blind uses rigid plastic martingales and a nifty curving handle. A guide dog school in California uses british style harnesses (LDS leather) that are very blocky, and square, and always the same brown, with SEEING EYE DOG printed on top of the leather strap that goes over the shoulder. We use bridgeport harnesses because they also do service-dog weight-support/gait-support harnesses :) and our guide dog harnesses have clips on them so the handle can be removed (muchos useful when working with kids and you need different lengths of handles!

The bus driver, in a way, did the right thing - airlines usually require you present ID, most trains do too. If you are waiting at a bus stop, however, or getting into a store/restaurant, etc... technically the workers aren't *allowed* to ask you for your or the dog's ID. It's against the disability act stuff. This is mostly because some people use service dogs for things that, outwardly, aren't visible (hearing dogs, seizure dogs, etc.) and it's considered bad form to ask them to "prove" their disability... to anyone...

[Mama Tiger]

Originally posted by GMRyujin

I think some seeing people get the guide/helper dogs to train and stuff. Not 100% sure.


Guide dogs in training are either with puppy raisers their first year -- in which case they don't have a harness on, just usually a jacket saying "guide dog in training" on it for the clueless, or if they're in training, they're within a short distance of one of the guide dog schools and the community around there generally is aware of what's going on, and I believe they also wear something saying "guide dog in training" for the unintiated.

A full working dog, however, using a harness is virtually NEVER with a sighted person unless it's for some corrective training, and then only for a couple of days. (A friend had to have someone from the Seeing Eye come out and work with her dog once to correct one behavior.)

[Elenfair]

Originally posted by romansperson
Actually, there are a few guide horses in the US - this one was raised on a farm near where I live:

http://www.guidehorse.org/people.htm

I hadn't seen this horse at the mall myself, but I know a couple folks who did - very funny sight, a horse in the mall wearing sneakers!

I am wondering about the process of housebreaking a horse ...

They're so CUTE!

We had one visiting in Ottawa, with a blind chap once. You should have SEEN the look on the bus drivers' face!

Apparently, they're pretty easy to housebreak and will ask to go outside. Ideally, you actually have a little barn for them... and a horse friend or two (they're very social animals with their own kind, horses...)

One of the great advantages of having a guide horse is that they eat cheaply! AND they live a VERY long time. Their service career can be well over 35 years! Talk about a good deal.

[RickJay]

Originally posted by Snake
I know this is gonna sound rude , but i honestly don't mean it to be . Are blind people with guide dogs required to carry bags to clean up after these dogs ?
Are parents required to carry bags to clean up after their children?

Seems to me that a toddler is far likelier to make a mess than is a well trained guide dog. If Greg the Guide Dog takes a dump in the lobby of the Four Seasons, well... shit happens, pun intended. You deal with it the same way you'd deal with little Timmy spewing his hot dog.

In any respect, it seems to me a very young child is every bit as filthy as a guide dog. They're as likely to barf or shit as a guide dog, and they're far likelier to touch things with dirty hands - in fact, I'd wager that kids touching things is a much greater health and clealiness issue than all the barf and poop produced by guide dogs and children combined.

Guide dogs are, at least to my thinking, generally LESS dirty than humans. But they're extremely disciplined... ALL dogs as a group might not be able to make the same claim, though dogs in general are reasonably clean animals.

[Elenfair]

Originally posted by Mama Tiger
A full working dog, however, using a harness is virtually NEVER with a sighted person unless it's for some corrective training, and then only for a couple of days. (A friend had to have someone from the Seeing Eye come out and work with her dog once to correct one behavior.)

Very true.

Depends on the school, though, or the purpose of the guide/service animal. We do a lot of urban training, using our service dog harnesses to teach young dogs about safety/road crossings. A lot of that is done, indeed, when pups are just wearing their coats (often called "Capes") which read "guide dog (or service dog) in training" - but some things just need the full real-life simulation. Even so, mind you, we do have identification tags on the harnesses that point out the animal is in training.

Because of the nature of the kids I work with, I have to take the young dogs (phase two training, after they're done with the "puppy walking" phase) into the city and get them used to actually using their harnesses to *pull* and manoever, not only to guide. We can do these on school training grounds, but nothing replaces the real thing. Also, because our kidlets are usually unpredictable, we put in a lot of time simulating real-life possibilities - an autistic child may well be a runner and decide to run straight across a busy street...

The advantage guidedogs for the blind have is that the blind usually "listen" to the dog if it stops for traffic... :)

But yes - good rule of thumb - assume the person you are dealing with *is* the partner/disabled user at ALL TIMES. More often than not, an animal in training will be IDENTIFIED AS SUCH.

Yay for working dogs!

[Scarlett67]

Originally posted by Heloise
There was a Disney t.v. show a few years ago about how the seeing eye dogs came about. It was really good, and the fact that it actually has relevance in my life now is especially poignant. Did anyone else see it, or do you know what I'm talking about?

Didn't see it, but I can recommend an excellent book (unfortunately out of print): First Lady of the Seeing Eye, by Morris Frank. Mr. Frank, blinded as a teenager, brought the first guide dog to the United States and worked for many years to get guide dogs accepted in all public places. Fabulous reading, lots of great stories. A must if you're interested in service dogs.

And I'd like to add to the chorus pointing out that guide dogs are trained to relieve themselves in appropriate places, and also have strict feeding schedules to help with this. They are also supposed to be rigorously groomed to minimize shedding and maximize cleanliness. I would agree that a well-trained and well-groomed dog is more acceptable than quite a few children.

More cheers for service dogs! They are truly man's best friend. *sniffle*

[piaffe]

Sorry to hijack, but I have a question:

What is the best way to make it clear to a blind person that you are speaking to him? Eye contact is clearly not an option, touching seems intrusive and inappropriate, and phrases like, "Hey, you with the dog/glasses/cane" just seem rude. However, if you don't somehow indicate that you're speaking to him, how is he to realize that you're addressing him and not someone else nearby?

Not that it's an excuse, but confusion like this (rather than jerkishness) might be part of why some people address the blind person's companion instead. At any rate, I'd like to know how best to address a blind person I don't know without being discourteous or awkward...help me out! TIA

[Heloise]

Excuse me, sir/ma'am? Sir/ma'am?

Like another person who may not know you are speaking to them, repeat as necessary until they respond.

That usually works.

[piaffe]

I figured as much, but just wondered if there was a better way. Thanks!

[Elenfair]

piaffe, that's a good question.

If a guide or service dog is present, I usually use the "Hello sir/miss, what a beautiful working dog you have!" as an introduction.

:) Maybe it's just because I'm silly that way.

I've also found that, as long as you are speaking directly "at them", most visually impaired people will realise that you are addressing them.

I've never thought to ask what the preference would be, mind you... but I will!

[Krisfer the Cat]

First off.. Heloise : what a wonderful name for a guide dog! Heidi was the name of the best dog we had when I was a child. Give Heidi a hug and a scratch from me ne4xt time you see her!

ONWARD!:

My ex was a very sickly man. He spent a LOT of time in the hospital. I would take the dog up to see him. Being sighted myself, I technically wasn't allowed the same privileges as J. BUT we both were well known to the public transportation system so they let me get away with murder in regards to "Puppy Paws". And the hospital never complained about me bringing him in to J's room. And I would walk "Puppy Paws" whenever J was too ill to do it. I will state I never tried to pass myself off as blind or that he was my dog. And I never took him anywhere that wouldn't have let me bring him in anyway. Usually though I would take Pup out on just his leash... but like I said I have slipped him past a lot of no no situations. It helps that he was a very well loved dog in our community and on our college campus. People who saw him with me would run up " OH no! J isn't in the hospital AGAIN?!" So yeah Pup and I pretty much got away with murder...

J was very acutely aware of people around him. He often heard someone approach before that person was close enough to speak in a polite tone of voice. Stores of course messed that up. But a light touch on his arm would get his attention usually without scaring him. And piaffe NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, short of a life threatening emergency, grab a blind person and pull hem around something. Talk about the height of rudeness. Always say" excuse me sir/madam... Can I help you find something?""Do you need assistance?" "There is a*insert item here* in your path. Can I help you around it?" The blind person will answer and if they require help will take YOUR arm, you can then lead them without dragging them.

[Big_Norse]

Guide dogs are amazing. I often ride the train with a blind woman and her dog. The dog (a black lab) is so cute and well behaved I am always tempted to pet and talk to him (I won't, don't worry).

He lays patiently between the seats (often sleeping) during the ride, but as soon as she touches him, he stands by her seat ready to work.

What really amazes me about him is the escalator. I never imagined a dog would let himself get near one of those, let alone ride it. I can imagine the gridded steps are terribly uncomfortable for his feet, but he's a trooper. Amazing dog, and kudos to whoever trained him to navigate an escalator!

[Scarlett67]

Originally posted by piaffe
Sorry to hijack, but I have a question:

What is the best way to make it clear to a blind person that you are speaking to him? Eye contact is clearly not an option, touching seems intrusive and inappropriate,

Friends of the blind, please correct me if I'm wrong. But sometimes I will gently touch a stranger on the arm or shoulder if necessary to help get their attention, in addition to "Excuse me, sir/ma'am" (for example, in a crowded place or if I am behind them). I don't think this would be a problem for a blind person as well -- except, and here's where you can correct me, if blind people are perhaps more sensitive to unexpected touching.

What say you?

[Heloise]

I think, perhaps, if you say, "Excuse me" before you touch them, as a kind of warning, that would be less startling. Other than that, I think it might be okay.

[Elenfair]

Originally posted by Big_Norse

What really amazes me about him is the escalator. I never imagined a dog would let himself get near one of those, let alone ride it.

My main working dog loves escalators. His tail wags furiously when he goes near one. He knows how to stop, wait, watch the steps and walk forward with "two paws up". When he gets to the bottom or the top, he does a little "hop" to get off. It's quite cute, and quite amusing.

It just takes a while to get guide/service animals to realise that the stairs move... and that they don't have to go down/up. Other than that, they seem to find it cool and amusing rather than uncomfortable! :D

[evilhomer]

Originally posted by RickJay
In any respect, it seems to me a very young child is every bit as filthy as a guide dog. They're as likely to barf or shit as a guide dog, and they're far likelier to touch things with dirty hands - in fact, I'd wager that kids touching things is a much greater health and clealiness issue than all the barf and poop produced by guide dogs and children combined.
I'd have to agree with RickJay on this. I have a three year old and a 5 month old, and either one can get messier than a guide dog in the time it takes me to turn my head. And the five month old is teething, so she produces more drool than a basset hound. I don't think I'd be too concerned about a guide dog in a restaurant. Although, to be fair, my three year old has stopped drinking out of the toilet :D

[jlzania]

Warning-extremely sad but true story to follow:
I had a really lovely sales rep for an Austin radio station that had a service dog.
She was in a wheelchair and the dog was a huge help to her.
She drove a van that had been outfitted to suit her needs.
Regretfully, she pulled into her garage one fine evening, and fell out of her car seat while trying to maneuver into her wheelchair.
The van was running and both she and the dog died of carbon monoxide poisoning.
Apparently she couldn't get to the garage opener.
They found the dog next to her; he'd been trying to drag her to the door.

[Danalan]

In the mall that used to be the Ford assembly plant in the San Jose/Oakland area (can't remember the name of the particular burg where the mall is located), I saw a blind lady with a guide dog.

The were walking away from the food court, apparently heading off to do some more shopping, but the dog kept pausing. The lady would tap around with her stick, then tug on the dog to get it to move. The dog looked pretty uncomfortable, and clearly was in distress -- but I couldn't see why.

Just then, the dog squatted and dropped a huge, steaming pile of turds on the floor. Then the dog and blind lady just walked off.

The dog was a german shepard, but it left enough crap for a horse. Stank to high heaven, too. Some poor guy from the closest booth (Orange Julius, with the weird, multi-color hat?) came over to clean it up with one of those dustpans-on-a-stick and a little broom. Needless to say, he just managed to spread it around some, and ruin his tools.

I headed off, I couldn't stand it any more. When I passed by later, it was all cleaned up, but the smell still lingered. I think a childs drool, or even vomit, would have been preferable for all involved.

[Mama Tiger]

Amen to that, Krisfer.
J was very acutely aware of people around him. He often heard someone approach before that person was close enough to speak in a polite tone of voice. Stores of course messed that up. But a light touch on his arm would get his attention usually without scaring him. And piaffe NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, short of a life threatening emergency, grab a blind person and pull hem around something. Talk about the height of rudeness. Always say" excuse me sir/madam... Can I help you find something?""Do you need assistance?" "There is a*insert item here* in your path. Can I help you around it?" The blind person will answer and if they require help will take YOUR arm, you can then lead them without dragging them.
I had another blind friend who uses a cane and is extremely independent. One day a woman came up and INSISTED he needed her "help" to go down a flight of stairs. He kept assuring her that he was fine and could manage without her assistance, but she wouldn't take no for an answer -- eventually she wrapped her arms around him and threw him down the stairs! He ended up with a broken wrist for her "assistance." (If I'd been him, she would have ended up with an assault charge, too!)

Sheesh.

[Scarlett67]

Originally posted by Danalan
The were walking away from the food court, apparently heading off to do some more shopping, but the dog kept pausing. The lady would tap around with her stick, then tug on the dog to get it to move. The dog looked pretty uncomfortable, and clearly was in distress -- but I couldn't see why.

Just then, the dog squatted and dropped a huge, steaming pile of turds on the floor. Then the dog and blind lady just walked off.

Not the dog's fault. Clearly the owner was more interested in her shopping than in taking care of her dog's needs. Either that or the dog was ill, which can happen to people as well. My grandmother once shit her pants while visiting me, and made quite a mess in my bathroom. She was terribly embarrassed. Doesn't mean I stopped inviting her to come and see me.

Please don't use this incident as a reason to disparage guide dogs' access to public places. It was an isolated incident and definitely not typical.

[Danalan]

Scarlett --

No disparagement intended. I fully support the use of guide dogs, and realize that life is not always pretty. It was a bad situation all around, and I certainly didn't think I was assigning any blame to anyone. I only brought it up because several people had asked if it ever happened, and other people seemed so assured that it would be no big deal.

It happens, and it is a big deal, at least for a little while, for a small area (like the food court). I'm not sure the blind lady noticed -- she was having difficulty with her dog, then the difficulty stopped. The smell wasn't instantly overpowering, she may have moved out of range quickly enough to miss it entirely. It only reached WMD status after the guy smeared it around with the broom and dustpan.

I don't know what she could have done -- I'm pretty sure she didn't have a mop, bucket, and industrial disinfectant with her. It might have been better if she stopped and tried to notify the mall cleaning staff, or at least warned people not to step in it (no-one did, AFAIK). But, she may have been embarrased, or even unaware of the problem.

[Big_Norse]

Thank you Elenfair for the insights on training guide dogs. I'm glad to hear they enjoy riding on escalators.

This is why I love this board. No matter what topic comes up, there is someone who knows what they're talking about who adds to our knowledge!

[Capcha]

MamaTiger it happens...some people think that just because you are blind, you must be helped, even if you say that you are capable. She could have at least walked beside him, if she insisted so much, and hold out her hands in case something happens.

I felt a pang of anger there for your friend. He must have tried to handle that very well....i would have snapped at the lady as she put her arms around me...

sheesh indeed!

[Heloise]

She's lucky that wasn't my sister. She would have screamed her lungs out that she was being attacked, then hit the woman either with her cane or with her fist.

She's feisty that way. :)

[capybara]

Dumb question I've wondered about-- if I run into a person with their working dog, what should my interaction with the doggie be? Can I ask whether I can pet the doggie (my first desire-- nice doggie! good doggie!) or should interaction with the doggie remain purely professional when they are at work? What about dogs-in-training?

[sj2]

Gentle reminder here that not all service animals are indeed meant for visually impaired people. In fact, there are many service dogs who assist people that have seizures...who in essence, alert their person to a pending attack and have saved peoples lives while offering them the freedom to move around.

Your best bet is to notice special vests on the service animal. Many of them are in training, remember...WITH sighted people.

[leechbabe]

Originally posted by Baker
I fully approve of service dogs being allowed to go anywhere, barring the previous examples like an ICU. But there's one place I might expect to see dogs and don't remember ever noticing one, and that's in church. Most disable people I've seen in church have either a friend or family member to act as a guide, not a dog. I'd more than welcome a service dog there, but do some people have reservations about it?

Baker I've been to a church where the Pastor was blind and his guide dog would be with him all through the service. I can't recall any cases of blind church goers but the Pastor sticks in my memory.

[Baker]

leechbabe , that's pretty cool. If you don't mind my asking, what denomination was it?

I remember a guest pastor at a church once, he had MS. Quite a young man too. He had to use two canes to walk so he didn't do as much "to-ing and fro-ing" as usual. And since he couldn't stand comfortably for long periods, when it came time to give the sermon, he sat on a stool placed between the lectern and the pulpit.

[Paul in Qatar]

You know, I don;t know a thing about this subject.

But....

Training assistance dogs seems like it would be a great rehabilitative sort of work for prisoners to do.

[CrazyCatLady]

Originally posted by Danalan
Scarlett --

No disparagement intended. I fully support the use of guide dogs, and realize that life is not always pretty. It was a bad situation all around, and I certainly didn't think I was assigning any blame to anyone. I only brought it up because several people had asked if it ever happened, and other people seemed so assured that it would be no big deal.

It happens, and it is a big deal, at least for a little while, for a small area (like the food court). I'm not sure the blind lady noticed -- she was having difficulty with her dog, then the difficulty stopped. The smell wasn't instantly overpowering, she may have moved out of range quickly enough to miss it entirely. It only reached WMD status after the guy smeared it around with the broom and dustpan.

I don't know what she could have done -- I'm pretty sure she didn't have a mop, bucket, and industrial disinfectant with her. It might have been better if she stopped and tried to notify the mall cleaning staff, or at least warned people not to step in it (no-one did, AFAIK). But, she may have been embarrased, or even unaware of the problem.


I'm afraid that it was only a big deal because the person cleaning up was too stupid to realize you can't sweep shit. Clean-up would have been far more effective if the guy had grabbed a pair of plastic gloves and some paper towels, picked up the poop, then mopped the area. That's the procedure we've used at every clinic I've ever worked in (minus the gloves), and it takes maybe two minutes if you have to go all the way to the front of the lobby, then come back for the mop. If the smell is still a problem (generally not if the animal's healthy and you haven't smeared things around), you make one more trip to spritz a little air freshener.

It really is no big deal if there are formed turds on a tile/linoleum floor. Trust me, I've cleaned up more dog shit in the last five years than most people will in their lifetimes. Diarrhea on carpet, however....

[Elenfair]

Originally posted by capybara
Dumb question I've wondered about-- if I run into a person with their working dog, what should my interaction with the doggie be? Can I ask whether I can pet the doggie (my first desire-- nice doggie! good doggie!) or should interaction with the doggie remain purely professional when they are at work? What about dogs-in-training?

Hi capybara!

Not a silly question at all! I get it all the time when I'm out working with the dogs.

The rule, in general, is to ignore the dog and let it do its work. When it's on duty, its first concern should be to get its job done. Some dogs (like retirevers) are extremely affectionate and love people... and it takes us trainers a long time to get them out of the notion that every stranger they meet, while on the job, will give them a hug and cuddle! :)

If a dog is "off duty", then sure, ask before you pet. On long train or plane rides, I often let people pet puppies in training because technically, while they're on duty, they don't have much to do (and get bored).

This being said: NEVER pet pups in training when they're out and about. Even MORESO than their working counterparts. Sometimes they get more interested in people than their job!

They are creatures of affection, after all :)

[Elenfair]

Originally posted by Paul in Saudi


Training assistance dogs seems like it would be a great rehabilitative sort of work for prisoners to do.

Smart man, Paul :) Yes, this program actually exists. Quite a few women's detention centers offer this kind of program: prisonners live with, train, and groom a service dog for a year or so. The program is HIGHLY successful both in the US and in Canada. There was even a Made For TV Movie about it a few years ago. One such trained dog also appeared in the documentary Dogs With Jobs, during their first season.

The program is excellent, all around. Rehabilitation wise, it's wonderful. A lot of these women, too, end up being employable as groomers, handlers and trainers when they are done with their sentence.

I think it's a most wonderful program.

Such a program is also in the works right now with "troubled" teenagers - our service/assistance dog training program and research group is trying to get funding for this still. It should be up and running by 2005.

[OESGal]

We had a non-sighted woman at my elementry school, who also went the same high school and college I did by cooicidence. Anyway, people at school were so rude to her, (she had one of those white canes) they would jump over her cane or point at her, make fun of her, etc. Later in college she got a guide dog and people there were so much more kind. It is amazing to see how people treat those with diabilities.

[Annie-Xmas]

A marvelous tale about using guide dogs is told in Alice (Mrs. Andrew) Vachss' book Sex Crimes . It seems when she was first starting a play therapy group for sexually abused children, one of her volunteers was a blind woman with a guide dog. Alice soon discovered that children who were too traumatized to speak to people would talk to the dog. Most of them had been warned "If you tell someone what I'm doing, your mother/sister/whoever will get sick and die," but none of them had been told not to talk to dogs!

When the volunteer moved on, Alice found out the guide dogs who were too old to continue working were killed. She adopted one, the "Sheba" of Andrew's books. The Vachss's have since developed an entire program of using dogs to help sexually abused children, including having them there to protect the child during court. Andrew Vachss's website www.vachss.com has a page on it.

Sheba has since died. In his book dedicated to her, Andrew wrote: If love would die along with death, then life wouldn't be so hard.

[Krisfer the Cat]

Hi Danalan

I think the point we were trying to make is undernormal circumstances it doesn't happen. As already mentioned the dog may have been sick. We have all had that sudden "I got to get to a bathroom NOW!" moment this may have been the dogs. (Besides mall food court food? EWWW!) I responded to snake's rather pissy and half hysterical post by being extra firm.

J's first dog was so well behaved he would let people pet him frequently. You of course had to ask for permission, then J would let go of the harness handle and Pup would be offially "on break.":D J's second dog was not so well mannered. We had by this time split so I saw her rarely. She had to stay on duty rigidly. So I think it depends on the dog and on the person. And it never hurts to tell the blind person that their dog is beautiful.;)

Mama Tiger J was Airborne Green Beret before becoming blind. And although he was skinny as a telephone pole he was strong. He woulda picked up the woman and THROWN her!

Annie thats a wonderful story!. Guide Dogs for the Blind has an adoption program for "career change dogs" ones that are either too old to work or were in training and couldn't make the grade. I looked into it at one time but I didnt have the money so I decided against it.:(

[Gazelle]

Originally posted by Coldfire
What always amazes me about seeing eye dogs is that they're so calm. There's this blind guy in my neighbourhood, and I sometimes watch him shop with his dog. She'll take him across busy streets, around kids riding their bikes on the sidewalk illegally, she'll stop or move away when she sees someone is on a collision course with them... and all the while, her tail's wagging and she's giving you this grin. Almost like she's proud to be able to do all of that! Well, she should be.Coldybaby! It amazes me too. And I do think they're proud of themselves... well, happy to be working anyway. Dogs love doing their job, no matter what it is.

[Mama Tiger]

Originally posted by Annie-Xmas
A marvelous tale about using guide dogs is told in Alice (Mrs. Andrew) Vachss' book Sex Crimes . It seems when she was first starting a play therapy group for sexually abused children, one of her volunteers was a blind woman with a guide dog. Alice soon discovered that children who were too traumatized to speak to people would talk to the dog. Most of them had been warned "If you tell someone what I'm doing, your mother/sister/whoever will get sick and die," but none of them had been told not to talk to dogs!
There are also similar programs with kids who have difficulty reading reading to dogs. The dog is just happy for the attention, and the child feels no pressure. Dogs and kids are a great combination.

I work with a golden retriever rescue, and a family recently adopted one of our dogs as a companion (not trained, just as a friend) for their three-year-old autistic daughter. Within two weeks of the dog arriving, she's now talking for the first time ever, learning to hug and pet the dog, and starting to be aware of things outside herself. And this is just with a pet. I've seen a program on a trained autism dog for a little boy who is actually leashed to the dog (for his own safety), and it's just made a world of difference for the family -- the little boy is learning to calm down and be quiet and the family doesn't have to worry about him hurting himself every time their attention is distracted for even a second.

Service dogs are WONDERFUL. EVery one I've known took great pride in what it was doing.

[Lute Skywatcher]

Y'all should keep an eye out for the Dogs with Jobs (http://dogswithjobs.com/dwj_tv/TV_episodes/episodes2/episodes2.html) TV series. They cover not only service dogs but drug dogs, police dogs, shepherds, etc.

[Balle_M]

When I was a mere lad 30+ years ago, the organist at our church was blind. His guide dog would lie on the carpet next to him throughout the service.

[Hello Again]

When I was in high school (In New York City) there was a blind gentleman who would frequently get on the subway with his guide dog about the same time as me. It was a yellowish labbish type of dog, and very cool. Just to enter the station you had to go down two flights of stairs and make several turns (then of course get on the right platform, it's very easy to get turned around even if you can see). Good Dog!

One time when we both arrived a bit earlier than usual, I complimented the dog and asked if I could pet it. He asked me not to, as she was working. I think that's somewhat typical.

[Elenfair]

Originally posted by Jeff Olsen
Y'all should keep an eye out for the Dogs with Jobs (http://dogswithjobs.com/dwj_tv/TV_episodes/episodes2/episodes2.html) TV series. They cover not only service dogs but drug dogs, police dogs, shepherds, etc.

Uh huh!

And if you keep an eye out on Season 3, you should see my dog Valen, n' me, working with a young boy named Kevin (Cerebral Palsy/High Functionning Autism)! :)

[BrotherCadfael]

The old kids book Follow My Leader is still a pretty good story which illustrates some of the ins and outs and ups and downs of guide dogs.

For those of you who havn't read it, the book tells the story of a boy who loses his sight through an accident, recovers and works with a trainer to learn how to navigate his new world, deals with his friends and their reactions to his situation, and eventually receives and learns to work with a guide dog (named "Leader", of course!).

Quite a good story, for all that it was written in the 1950s. It does give a interesting picture into societal attitudes of the day -- many of which haven't changed all that much.

[Guinastasia]

The first time I saw a service dog (for a non-blind individual), I was in awe of what these animals can do! The owner saw me looking and I smiled and said, "What a beautiful dog you have!" And he was-he was this gorgeous Irish Setter. (I think)

As for the animals making a mess-hell, a properly housebroken dog shouldn't shit or piss all over the place! Of course they have accidents sometimes, but most dogs, if trained properly, will let you know if they have to go outside.

[Elenfair]

Guin...

Probably a dark red Golden Retriever.

I don't know of any school who trains Irish Setters for service work... unfortunately, though absolutely pretty, Irish Setters are... usually... erm... dumb as a box of hair. They're kind, and sweet, and wonderful family pets. Just... not... terribly smart.

:D

[OpalCat]

Yeah Irish Setters are way too stupid to be guide dogs, I'd think. Golden Retrievers, on the other hand, are wondermous balls of wonderment. Not that I'm bragging on Sparky or anything...

[OpalCat]

Originally posted by Annie-Xmas
When the volunteer moved on, Alice found out the guide dogs who were too old to continue working were killed.

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!
These would make the best pets in the world, people would line up around the block to adopt old service dogs... but they KILL THEM!!????!?! Mother of fucking god! I HATE PEOPLE!!!!

[Baker]

Perhaps the abrupt change in lifestyle would make them miserable/confuse them? Not that I'm endorsing it understand.

Greyhounds have two different breeding registries, because the AKC refuses to condone putting racing dogs to death when their sporting days are over.

And I once heard, although I don't have a cite, that all those well cared for horses used for carriage pulling in parades by the British royal family, are put down when they get past working age. That may or may not be true. I think I'll try to look it up.

[Mama Tiger]

The policy on what to do with retired guide dogs varies by school. I know that dogs from The Seeing EyeTM belong to the blind person and they have to find a retirement home for the dog -- or keep it themselves; I had a friend who had a former dog of hers who'd had to be retired abruptly at age 5 when she panicked at a thunderstorm and dragged her human out into heavy traffic (!!). The dog lived with her until her death at age 12 or so. We used to have her over for the weekend (the dog, that is); she was such a sweetie! And another friend's dog went to live with Grandma for a thoroughly spoiled retirement.

Other schools, the dog belongs to the school forever and has to be returned. I haven't heard of any schools who put down retired dogs, however -- in fact, last year when we were looking for a new dog, I checked a bunch of the guide dog schools and they have "adopted a retired guide dog" programs. So hopefully that's no longer the case!

[Heloise]

I would think that the older dogs getting ready to retire would be great for the newer ones coming out, as a way of training by example, no?

That's just me guessing, though.

[BoringDad]

A non-sighted mom and BoringMom went to the zoo with two small kids in strollers. The zoo has a fenced in area where emus and wallabies roam free and the people stay on a concrete path that winds through the area. They asked an employee if her working dog would be a problem in the enclosure. Zoo employee said "Hmmm... we've never tried it. Let's see!" And the employee went into the area to make sure things were OK.

For anyone else tempted to try this... emus do NOT like dogs.

They started around the walk. The emus, which normally stand well back from the walk and ignore the people, started investigating. They are normally silent. They started making noise.

And then the slapstick comedy movie started. EMU ATTACK!

The emus reared back, began flapping their stubby wings for balance, and their feet began flailing infront of them like windmills. Pandemonium. As the birds rushed at the dog feet first, moms and kids in strollers hurled themselves out of the way. Zoo attendants screamed "ALL IS WELL! REMAIN CALM!"* Grown men wet themselves at the ferocity of the emu attack.** The dog began leading for her life away from the emus.

They safely made it out of the gate with the emus hot on their trails. No one was hurt. The Zoo employee calmly mentioned "Perhaps working dogs should not go into the emu area."




*Zoo Attendant did not say this, but story needed some jazzing up.

** This may be true as far as I know. BoringMom said that she didn't conduct a survey.

[Guinastasia]

Hmmm, maybe it wasn't a Setter, then. I don't know, since I'm not really a dog lover.

I really wish one could train working cats. THAT would rule.

[Krisfer the Cat]

BoringDad .. that was great! You and Wang-ka should tag team for storytelling!

A hint: Adult male gorillas don't like dogs either. When J and I went the silverback male lunged at the glass.. I swear it bowed. We beat a hasty retreat!

Working cats would never work out.. the cats would be like "hell its been FIVE MINUTES since my last nap I am wiped OUT!"
Or "you want to to do what?" then roll around laughing hysterically...

[Boyo Jim]

Originally posted by Mama Tiger
You know, they really do NOT give guide dogs to people who can see. That's fairly obvious. Person+guide dog = blind. ...

Clearly, if the person is faking it, so is the dog. :p

[Optihut]

Wow, that's quite shocking, I am always appaled to hear stories about people who lack the ability to think about the underlying meaning of a law and try to strictly enforce it. Apparently the clerk was too stupid to understand that in the case of guide dogs, the usual Wal-mart policy doesn't apply :(

As for no dogs at restaurants: That's just insane! I always take my dog to any restaurant and he sleeps underneath the table. Although I made the mistake of giving him food at our table at home, he understands the difference between home and a restaurant and consequently doesn't beg for food when we are there - as I said, he sleeps under the table and doesn't disturb anyone. But to suggest that I can't bring him with me? Well, I guess it's the restaurants management's decision to bar me from entering, but from a "making profit" point of view, isn't that a tad counter-productive?

Ah well, I guess I am fortunate that around here I am not aware of any restaurants, who prohibit dog owners from bringing their dogs.

[Elenfair]

Optihut: are you in France?

Sometimes I wish things were like that here. Mind you, I often wished people would PICK UP after their dogs, in France. It is nifty, however, to be able to take the dogs anywhere - and I've found french dogs very well socialized/behaved in public BECAUSE they've been out and about since they were little.

Beh. Different cultures, different ways, I suppose! :)

[Optihut]

Not in France, Elenfair, but close enough: I am currently residing in Germany.

[Annie-Xmas]

I should mention that Vachss's program was started in the 1980's, and the policy about killing old guide dogs has been changed. Since seeing eye dogs worked so well, people did find many other uses for service dogs, including the ones stated above.

[GingerOfTheNorth]

Elenfair neglects to mention that not only are her dogs smart, but they are friendly and sweet and so very nice. They also have llama-butt. We went to breakfast on my Big Trip, and Zap (younger dog) went along with us. Zap, who is a ball of pent-up puppy energy and bounces off the walls, was perfectly behaved while wearing her coat.

Spanky, the pet rather than working dog, is the prettiest dog I have ever seen. What was that about a box of hair?

[Heloise]

I'm almost afraid to ask, but ... What is llama-butt?

[leechbabe]

Originally posted by Baker
leechbabe , that's pretty cool. If you don't mind my asking, what denomination was it?

Lutheran.

[DesertDog]

Originally posted by Baker
Greyhounds have two different breeding registries, because the AKC refuses to condone putting racing dogs to death when their sporting days are over. It's more than just different registries. DesertRoomie and I belong to a lure coursing club (http://www.geocities.com/dfbaz/) here (a saluki deigns to live with us) and it's easy to tell the track greyhounds from the AKC ones. They look coarser and they got thighs like this. But, man, are they fast in the sprint.

DD

[Eats_Crayons]

Originally posted by Mama Tiger
The policy on what to do with retired guide dogs varies by school. I know that dogs from The Seeing EyeTM belong to the blind person and they have to find a retirement home for the dog -- or keep it themselves;
I saw a neat show about a woman who got a seeing eye dog for her seeing eye dog when the working dog lost his/her site due to old age. I can't remember if the owner was then sited or not, for some reason, I vaguely recall the she had surgery and now had limited vision. I do remember that she no longer needed a working dog herself, but was so appreciative of her dog's long history of helping her that she didn't want to dog to lose its independence.

It was a neat set-up.

[Guinastasia]

I remember when I was in third grade, this guy came to our school with his seeing eye dog (he was a family friend of one of my classmates), and answered our questions, and stuff. The dog's name was Prina, and I THINK she was a huskey type. BEAUTIFUL dog.

He explained the grabbing people thing-he had one of our teachers come up and blindfolded her, then show what to do and what NOT to do when she asked for directions. (Don't grab her arm and say, "Well, RIGHT OVER HERE! and pull her along-instead, offer your arm, and say, "Well, if you'll take my arm, etc, I can direct you this way,).

Then he let her try and lead the dog. It was so funny, because Prina ended up right in the face of a student and started licking her face.

He said when she would be retired, she'd simply go and live at the training center, I think, and become an ordinary pet.

[Scarlett67]

Eats_Crayons: I've read of dogs who volunteered themselves to help their dog companions who'd gone blind -- putting themselves between the blind dog and hazards, walking alongside them, etc.

Dogs are amazing, aren't they?

[OpalCat]

Originally posted by leechbabe
Lutheran.

At first I thought this was in answer to the post right before it, asking "What is Llama-butt"...

boy, paying attention sure makes a difference! :D

[rjk]

Guinastasia, that might have been a Samoyed. They originated in Siberia, and were used for herding reindeer as well as hunting and pulling. I'm told they were raised with the kids, and if they turned out mean or stupid they would end up decorating somebody's collar, so they're mostly a lot less aggressive than similar breeds, and certainly smart enough to work as a helper. The Sammy my ex and I had years ago was never happier than when he was in a swarm of little kids.

There's a woman I see on the bus sometimes with her standard poodle seeing-eye dog. The dog waits in line, takes the escalator at the station, and waits for the train (right where the door will stop), with its toes on the yellow line.

[Eats_Crayons]

*snort*

I just re-read my last post and noticed that I wrote "site" pretty much everywhere that "sight" should've been.

<lament> Look at what the Internet has done to me! </lament>

Scarlett the one on TV had some kind of leash/harness set up so that the two dogs could easily trot side by side. It was pretty cool, they worked in unison as if they were one great, big dog with eight legs.

[Elenfair]

Heloise:

Llama-butt, n. <i> from l. llamabutus </i>

1) description of the effect of growth on the long-legged australian shepherd puppy, pertaining to its long legs, poofy rear end, and little stub of a docked tail (c.f. http://zappuppy.tripod.com/zap.html ) when viewed from the rear. <i> This puppy has a llama-butt. </i>
2) <i>slang</i> the name of such a puppy, though derogatory. <i>Hey, llama-butt, you look like a doofus! </i>

[Elenfair]

I HATE THE FREAKIN' BOARD CODES!

GAAAAAAH

(that is all. Forgive the bad formatting. Evidently, my dogs are better trained than me.)

[Kyla]

Originally posted by OESGal
We had a non-sighted woman at my elementry school, who also went the same high school and college I did by cooicidence. Anyway, people at school were so rude to her, (she had one of those white canes) they would jump over her cane or point at her, make fun of her, etc. Later in college she got a guide dog and people there were so much more kind. It is amazing to see how people treat those with diabilities.

God, that is so terrible. A good friend of mine in high school was blind since birth (so was one of her older brothers, so it must have been genetic, although I know that neither of her parents were), and no one gave her any problems. More like, we were all insanely impressed with her ability to know exactly where every stair and corner in the school were. She took honors and AP classes and never let her disability stop her from doing exactly what she wanted to do.