Why were the Empires ships so shit?

[Bakhesh]

I talking about the original trilogy here. The empire made lots of very big and powerful ships, but seemed to forget about making any of them remotely defendable.

Obviously, there is the death star. Able to destroy a planet, but able to be destroyed by a single fighter? I imagine someone in Empire engineering got an ass kicking over that one. Do you reckon after they finished the deathstar, there was one part left over marked "Exhaust port safety grill". (unfortunately the instructions were in japanese, so they couldn't work out where it went).

Then, there is the second death star. Now this was unfinished, so it seems fair enough that it was still vunerable. But the emperor practically invited the rebellion to attack. He mush have know that they would target the main reactor that he had left open so temptingly. And yet, he forgot to try to stop the rebels from flying down the access shaft and destroying it. A couple of cables stretched accross one of the narrow bits could have changed the outcome significantly.

Next, the tie fighter. No shielding whatsoever. including vaders modified fighter. And they wondered why they kept losing in dogfights.:smack: And yet they managed to put them on Imperial Probe droids though?

Finally, we have the super stardestroyer Executor. This is the biggest ship in the fleet with the exception of deathstars. It must have a complement of thousands of tie fighters, yet it was destroyed by a couple of rebel fighters. The shield generator was destroyed by a single fighter. It seems to be the only bit of the ship that WASN'T protected by a shield.:smack: I mean, why not just paint a big target on it?

Maybe if they had built ships without a self destruct button on the outside, they would have stood more chance against the rebels. So howcum they were so bad at this? Did the empire have a shortage of shield technology? Were they on a very strict budget? Or were they just very shortsighted?

[Zebra]

Because the writer was rooting for the rebels.

[Bryan Ekers]

On a related question, why do highly-trained stormtroopers carrying laser weapons miss all the time?

Because showcasing the Empire's skill with weapons and ships is less important than letting the good guys win.

[Fern Forest]

Death Star 1 - That was a flaw in the design that the Empire's engineers didn't begin to suspect till the Rebels were making their attack runs. By then it was a little too late.

Death Star 2 - Well the Emperor's plan would have gone off greatly had some furry little unmentionables not happened to have had the ability to take out mass of Storm Troopers. Well he would have still died but his station would have been intact.

TIE - The Empire favored quantity over quality. Since their main enemy was a small but gaining rebellion they didn't feel the need to put too much tech in them. They did change their minds however. Vader's TIE (according to the games) was a shielded super TIE fighter. But if you were a grunt you got the old models for the remainder of the war. It sucks to be the lowest wrung.

Executor - I think you're confused here. The A-Wing took out the shields of a regular ISD. The Executor was taken out by all those Calamarian ships. Akbar commanded "Concentrate all firepower on that Super Star Destroyer!" and down she went.

I imagine there was some arrogance. They're main focus was on projecting fear into the hearts of people. More ships, more fear. We see this happening in our world right now. Petty tin dictators want the numbers to brag to the world how big their army is. Only problem their equipment and training suck and smaller better trained and better equiped armies roll right over them.

Zerba's responce is the other half of the coin.

[CalMeacham]

Forget about all that. I wanna know why Imperial Stormtroopers even bother with Body Armor.

It's clumsy and clunky. It makes them highly visible in most environm,ents (except snow). and it apparently doesan't do a damned thing about protecting you from rebel guns. In fact, judging from the efforts of the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi, it doesn't do anything to protect you against rocks and sticks, either.

Most ineffectual armor in history.

[HumanStromboli]

I thinking along these lines this morning.

Lucas (among other things) got way too creative in this latest (earlier) trilogy with the capabilities of the ships and speeders and attack machinery. Based on what it _should_ have had at their disposal, for, the Empire looks stupid for using completely immobile AT-AT and chicken walkers in ESB and RotJ. And Luke should have received absolutely nothing for his land speeder at Mos Eisley; it looked like it would have been outmoded 100 years before AotC.

It's possible to be creative and make things pretty without creating an apparent Dark Ages 20 years down the road.

[ArrMatey!]

For the ships, I've always looked at it the same way I look at any massive government project that gets shoddy merchandise: They went with the lowest bidder.

For the innaccuracy of Stormtroopers with their rifles, I seem to remember there being a computer game (dark forces?) in which one can weild a stormtrooper rifle, but even standing stock still with it, the blasts go every which way. Inherently innaccurate weapon, which goes back to point #1 above.

[Bakhesh]

Originally posted by ArrrMatey
For the ships, I've always looked at it the same way I look at any massive government project that gets shoddy merchandise: They went with the lowest bidder.

For the innaccuracy of Stormtroopers with their rifles, I seem to remember there being a computer game (dark forces?) in which one can weild a stormtrooper rifle, but even standing stock still with it, the blasts go every which way. Inherently innaccurate weapon, which goes back to point #1 above.

Yeah, thats right. I think its the E-11 blaster rifle, and its rubbish. Probably the cheapest available again.


It always makes me laugh in ANH, when Obiwan says "These blasts are too accurate for sandpeople. It must be Imperial Stormtroopers" Or something like that. how bad are sandpeople then?

[tanstaafl]

Actually, the bit that always bothered me is that in the original movie when Ben and Luke find the destroyed Sandcrawler, Ben comments "Only Imperial Stormtoopers are so precise." Of course, at every other point in the series, Imperial Stormtoopers couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside.

The fact that Stormtrooper armor seems to be completely useless always bothered me too.

It's possible to be creative and make things pretty without creating an apparent Dark Ages 20 years down the road.
Well, one could argue that replacing the Republic with an oppressive Empire did cause a Dark Age, but it is a valid point. The problem is (of course) that special effects technology has improved so much and audience expectations of them have increased so much over the past 25 years that it would be difficult to pull off. (This problem isn't restricted to Star Wars either; note how much better the Enterprise from Enterprise looks compared to the Enterprise from TOS. Apparently the Federation suffered a Dark Ages too.)

[kingpengvin]

Maybe it was a muffed line. Maybe Ben said "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are this Impercise"

[El Elvis Rojo]

As has been pointed out, it's mainly for dramatic impact. I mean, there are movies where the villain has a dead eye on his team who can shoot a bird flying by 200 feet away and hit it dead in the eyeball, yet when it comes to the big drag down shoot out with the hero, he gets a few hits in the shoulder or leg, but that's it. I never read any of the books, but from what my old roomate told me, Stormtroopers were actually rather effective and accurate shots, and their armor did manage to help out here and there. The problem is, that only seemed to be when fighting secondary characters and the like.

As for the empire's ships, it's not that they were bad, it's just that the rebels' were better. I mean, your basic TIE next to an X-Wing is nothing but scrap metal. X-Wings are more manuverable, have better weapons, and shields. So, on a one-to-one, there's not much they can do. But, one X-Wing against, say, 100 TIES, and it's pretty much no contest. That's where the Empire has it's power. Also, X-Wings may be super manuverable and able to deal a Star Destroyer some real damage, but I don't think there's a single Rebel capital ship that's on par with a SD. The rebels are outmanned, just really lucky.

[rjung]

Any notion that Stormtroopers are a well-trained fighting force dled in Return of the Jedi.

Stormtrooper: "Look! A mob of short natives wielding primitive weapons! They're no match for our advanced armor and weapons -- run away!"

[MovieMogul]

It always makes me laugh in ANH, when Obiwan says "These blasts are too accurate for sandpeople. It must be Imperial Stormtroopers" Or something like that. how bad are sandpeople then?
Didn't a sandperson pick off a pod racer in TPM? ;)

[Kaspar Hauser]

TIEs are unshielded beacuse it would divert power away from the engines. Therefore, they're much faster than Rebel ships, but as delicate as paper lanterns.

[Bippy the Beardless]

RE: Weakness of Death Star.

This bothered me until Eppisode 2 came out. Now we know the Death star was designed by those insect dudes. Think about it, if you were to create a planet destroying weapon, and give it into the hands of the Empire, you would make pretty darned sure that there was a weak point so that if the Empire were to use it against one of your plannets you could protect yourself easily. You'd also make sure that the Empire never has a chance to discover the weak point and remove it.
So the rebels got the plan, but also must have got the scoop on the Insect guys 'insurance policy'.

[HPL]

If you've ever played the game Tie Fighter, you learn that even without sheilds, Ties are faster and can totally rape rebel ships, particulary because ties tend to travel in groups and rebel ships(at least in the games) tend to perate in fewer numbers.

Basically, if a Tie fighter gets on an X-wing's tail, the X-wing is screwed.

[Tarrsk]

Originally posted by HPL
If you've ever played the game Tie Fighter, you learn that even without sheilds, Ties are faster and can totally rape rebel ships, particulary because ties tend to travel in groups and rebel ships(at least in the games) tend to perate in fewer numbers.

Basically, if a Tie fighter gets on an X-wing's tail, the X-wing is screwed.

Not exactly- at least, according to the X-Wing books. The X-Wing's shields give it a huge advantage in one-on-one dogfights, enough that (assuming pilots of equal skill), the X-Wing could just soak up damage until it manages to get a snap shot at the TIE. The X-Wing may be slower than the TIE fighter, but the TIE fighter evaporates after a single good hit.

However, the point is that individual X-Wings are far more expensive than individual TIE fighters. The price of one X-Wing is probably enough to net you several TIEs, enough to take out a single X-Wing, assuming you're willing to take a few extra pilot casualties in the process (and the Empire is certainly willing to do that).

[Tarrsk]

Hmm... that last paragraph was written poorly. Let me rephrase.

The multiple TIE fighters one could purchase for the price of a single X-Wing would (again, assuming equal pilot skill) easily overpower that equivalently-priced single X-Wing. However, it is likely that the TIE group will suffer losses as well, due to the X-Wing's aforementioned firepower and shields and the TIE fighters' extreme fragility. For the Empire (which essentially has limitless manpower), this is an acceptable sacrifice.

[Rhum Runner]

Originally posted by rjung
Stormtrooper: "Look! A mob of short natives wielding primitive weapons! They're no match for our advanced armor and weapons -- run away!"

Right. And it is always a good idea to let the jungle grow right up to your back door. Not even a 100 yard clearing. No mine field either. Cub scouts could have defended that thing better.

What bothers me most about combat in SW, is the fact that they fight like it is the US Civil War. Look at I and II, in both big battle scenes you have massed troops running at each other. Hell, in PM, it is like a roman legion out on the plains. No air support to speak of. It's just silly. How about some carpet bombing? How about orbital bombardment?

[RickJay]

Of course, it's only a matter of time before we get the standard-issue post by someone telling us how the Star Destroyer could fire 78 jillion gooberwatts of energy through its turbolasers and the Empire had five million of them and the shields had 650 grabasstiks of shielding power, all basd on references to the "canon" pulp novels.

[Miller]

Originally posted by Bakhesh
Finally, we have the super stardestroyer Executor. This is the biggest ship in the fleet with the exception of deathstars. It must have a complement of thousands of tie fighters, yet it was destroyed by a couple of rebel fighters. The shield generator was destroyed by a single fighter. It seems to be the only bit of the ship that WASN'T protected by a shield. I mean, why not just paint a big target on it?

This nitpick is starting to bug me a little bit. When the big ball on the top of the Star Destroyer is blown up, the shields were already down. You can tell, because otherwise the big globe wouldn't have blown up! The shields would have protected it. At that point in the battle, the SDs had been in knife-fighting range of the Rebel capital ships for some time, and everyone involved had already taken a serious pounding. The Calamari Cruisers took out the SD's shields, which left it vulnerable to the guns and missiles of the fighters, who finished it off.

Fern Forest: I think you're confused: when the Executor takes its nosedive, I'm pretty sure you can clearly see a plume of fire from the bridge where the A-Wing hit it. Now, I maintain that the A-Wing didn't deal the Executor a fatal blow under normal circumstances, but the ships Captain had maneuvered too close to the Death Star, and when the bridge was destroyed, whoever was left in command couldn't re-establish control before the Executor got caught in the Death Star's gravity well.

(I'm not really interested in defending most of Return of the Jedi: just the battle around Endor, because that was the only cool part of the movie.)

[SPOOFE]

Of course, it's only a matter of time before we get the standard-issue post by someone telling us how the Star Destroyer could fire 78 jillion gooberwatts of energy through its turbolasers and the Empire had five million of them and the shields had 650 grabasstiks of shielding power, all basd on references to the "canon" pulp novels.
200 gigaton heavy turbolasers, 25,000 of them (at least), and at least 16 teratons (roughly equivalent) of shielding, according to the Episode 2 Incredible Cross-Sections, which is part of the ICS series recently declared canon by Lucasfilms, as announced on page 38 of Star Wars Insider.

"The first two Incredible Cross-Sections books were conceived to explore bold new territory in the Star Wars universe, taking a rare look inside more vehicles and vessels than we had ever seen before, and doing in in unprecidented detail. These books would represent the most thorough research ever done on these vehicles and would receive Lucasfilm's formal imprimatur as canon. These volumes would henceforth be sent out to licensees as reference guides and would become useful manuals for Industrial Light & Magic, where some of the artwork influenced details in Episodes I and II."
Eat it. :D

Anyway, to clear up some misconceptions...

On a related question, why do highly-trained stormtroopers carrying laser weapons miss all the time?
Because if you're trying to let someone escape, it's kind of a bad idea to kill them, isn't it? Remember, Tarkin deliberately allowed Han, Luke, & Company escape so that the homing beacon aboard the Falcon would allow the Empire to find the Rebel base.

I wanna know why Imperial Stormtroopers even bother with Body Armor.
If they wanted to fully protect against blasters, they'd need insanely heavy armoring. Remember ANH? Remember the scene in Docking Bay 94? Some of Han's blaster shots hit the wall and exploded like a hand grenade.

Stormtroopers wear armor for two reasons: One, to offer slight protection against low-powered or sharp-angle shots... and two, to force the enemy to pump up the juice on their guns, which would make the enemy run out of ammo in a prolonged firefight.

Asking why stormies bother with armor is like asking why cops bother with bullet-proof vests if rifle bullets could still penetrate.

Stormtrooper: "Look! A mob of short natives wielding primitive weapons! They're no match for our advanced armor and weapons -- run away!"
Incorrect. Try: "Look! A mob of short natives wielding primitive weapons that outnumber us a hundred to one and have the home-field advantage! Return to the bunker that we're trying to protect!"

The Rebel's plan was to try to lure the Imperial forces out into the forest. Divide and conquer, and all that.

Not exactly- at least, according to the X-Wing books.
The X-wing books follow the exploits of THE best X-wing squadron that the Rebellion/New Republic has to offer. Hardly a normal case.

[Fern Forest]

You're right Miller. I had the A-Wing incident too early in my mind.

[SPOOFE]

Fern, I think you were thinking of a different part of the battle, where you see X-wings blowing up one of those domes on an ISD.

[CalMeacham]

Criticizing the battle plans in the Star Wars universe is pretty pointles -- they're supposed to be a kid's-eye view of war. That's howcum all the pricipal characters get to be Generals and Admirals -- the staff is top-heavy. But t a kd they can all be generals. I just think that, even to a kid, the pointlessness of the Stortrooper armor (not to mention the non-existent defenses of the ships) seems just too obvious.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally posted by SPOOFE
Stormtroopers wear armor for two reasons. . .

Three reasons. It's also so that if they hit their head on low hanging death star beams, they won't be hurt. :)

[HPL]

Originally posted by Tarrsk
Not exactly- at least, according to the X-Wing books. The X-Wing's shields give it a huge advantage in one-on-one dogfights, enough that (assuming pilots of equal skill), the X-Wing could just soak up damage until it manages to get a snap shot at the TIE. The X-Wing may be slower than the TIE fighter, but the TIE fighter evaporates after a single good hit.


I was going acording to the game, not the books(which I haven't read). In the movies, Ties are destroyed by a single hit, while in the game, Ties can take 3.

[SPOOFE]

I just think that, even to a kid, the pointlessness of the Stortrooper armor (not to mention the non-existent defenses of the ships) seems just too obvious.
'Cept it ISN'T obvious. You need a gun with the destructive power of a hand grenade to punch through the armor. You call THAT flimsy? Whattaya want, six feet of depleted uranium?

Three reasons. It's also so that if they hit their head on low hanging death star beams, they won't be hurt.
Well, let's also not forget the built-in fellatio machines in the cups, but I wasn't gonna go there...

[Miller]

Well, let's also not forget the built-in fellatio machines in the cups, but I wasn't gonna go there...

Whoah! I guess now we know the true power of the dark side, eh?

[theendisnear]

Originally posted by SPOOFE
Well, let's also not forget the built-in fellatio machines in the cups, but I wasn't gonna go there...

Bad aim mystery solved, move along folks!

[tracer]

Originally posted by SPOOFE
You need a gun with the destructive power of a hand grenade to punch through the [stormtrooper] armor.
Unless you're an ewok, in which case all you need is a well-thrown rock.

[Duderdude2]

I can't believe people are actually trying to defend this movie. Guys, face it, it's a fun, stupid popcorn movie.

[Miller]

Originally posted by Duderdude2
I can't believe people are actually trying to defend this movie. Guys, face it, it's a fun, stupid popcorn movie.

Thank you for, once again, adding nothing to the thread.

[Duderdude2]

You're welcome Miller!

[SPOOFE]

Unless you're an ewok, in which case all you need is a well-thrown rock.
I didn't see any rocks penetrate stormtrooper armor.

I can't believe people are actually trying to defend this movie. Guys, face it, it's a fun, stupid popcorn movie.
That's the point. I argue that the "fun" and "popcorn" parts are right, but not the "stupid". For that, you have to go back to the prequels.

[Grousser]

"There are entities like Duderdude2 or gatopescado in every message board of the internet.

"This battle goes on wherever you have discussion forums; it's a verity, a rule, of our kind of existence. They are natural predators, you can fight them but you will never get totally rid of them.

"They have to be fought on our side of the glass".

(Oh, God, where did I get that from??)

[Teelo]

Actually! I don't think the Executor was the biggest Star Destroyer! I used to be a big Star Wars nut, and I bought a book which showed all the different ships in the movies, 4,5 and 6 and the books at the time.
There was a ship called...I think it was the Eclipse it was 16 km long, double the Executor and was pure black. Apparently it could just ram capitol ships to destroy them. But of course, Luke blew it up from the inside...or something.

On Stormtrooper helmets: When Han and Luke had trouble seeing through them in ANH, was it because they were not in the "on" position? I recall something my brother wearia told me about how the helmet worked together with the blaster to help aiming and allow the wearer a nice 360 degree view while wearing them.

Im totally unsure about that last paragragh though!

In the game x-wing vs tie fighter, the x-wings and normal tie fighters had the same speed. Maybe the makers didnt research the ships well enough. I just included that because someone said they were much faster.

[Duderdude2]

Seriously guys, do you honestly believe George Lucas intended Star Wars to be anything more than a pure, fun action flick? I don’t know why you take offense to this; it’s merely my perception - and many others - of this franchise. Anyways, it’s obviously that the movie was not intended to be taken seriously, as alluded too by the movie’s complete disregard of physics. Take for instance that there would be no sound in space, or that the crafts wouldn’t be able to turn on a dime nearly as efficiently as they do in the movie. Then there’s the AT-ATs which are the most impractical offensive weapons ever fabricated. A mammoth machine, which walks and apparently lacks any safety features are being utilized to “quickly” take out a shield generator. Is the technology in Star Wars so lagging that they’ve never developed nukes, or even simple bombs for that matter ? I could go on for hours about the incompetence of anyone or anything in that movie, but I grow weary of all this Star Wars speak.

[Teelo]

WE ARE HAVING FUN, POOPY PANTS.



:)

[Duderdude2]

Originally posted by Teelo
WE ARE HAVING FUN, POOPY PANTS.



:)

At least you were nicer about it than Grousser ;)

[Miller]

I'm just curious as to what sort of reaction Duderdude expected to get. "My God! He's right! Why am I wasting my time with this, when I could be out curing cancer?" For fuck's sake, we take the movie seriously and have these nitpicky conversations because it's fun to do! This seems like such an obvious and simple answer to this question, and yet there is always, without fail, some fucking moron who can't figure out that people are talking about a subject because they are interested in the subject, and have to show up to save us all from our hobbies. Christ! How hard is this to figure out? How many times were you dropped on your head as a child that you can't make the mental connection of "Hey, they're talking about Star Wars. I guess they really like Star Wars!"

Now will you please shut up and go away?

[Duderdude2]

Originally posted by Miller
I'm just curious as to what sort of reaction Duderdude expected to get. "My God! He's right! Why am I wasting my time with this, when I could be out curing cancer?" For fuck's sake, we take the movie seriously and have these nitpicky conversations because it's fun to do! This seems like such an obvious and simple answer to this question, and yet there is always, without fail, some fucking moron who can't figure out that people are talking about a subject because they are interested in the subject, and have to show up to save us all from our hobbies. Christ! How hard is this to figure out? How many times were you dropped on your head as a child that you can't make the mental connection of "Hey, they're talking about Star Wars. I guess they really like Star Wars!"

Now will you please shut up and go away?

Whoa, dude, this isn't the pit, so watch your mouth. I never directly insulted you.

[rjung]

Originally posted by SPOOFE
Try: "Look! A mob of short natives wielding primitive weapons that outnumber us a hundred to one and have the home-field advantage! Return to the bunker that we're trying to protect!"
I didn't see any hundred-to-one mobs in the movie, did you?

And besides, even with 100-to-1 odds, one decent minefield and a few automatic weapons with good spray would have done the job. As Rhum Runner said, not even a clearing...

[Miller]

Your attitude is insulting enough. If you don't have anything to contribute, piss off.

[Duderdude2]

Originally posted by Miller
Your attitude is insulting enough. If you don't have anything to contribute, piss off.

It’s not my problem if you lack the mental competence to neglect me. Seems you’re just angry at yourself.

[Grousser]

Originally posted by Duderdude2
At least you were nicer about it than Grousser.
Poopy Pants is nicer than being a natural predator in a kind of existence?

Well... you could play a villain very well in the SDMB, but there's no intention to suggest that you are that way in real life... :dubious:

I'm curious that in every thread discussing about real issues from fictitious universes, it comes up an entity, not partisan of the SoD, who tends to try convincing everyone that everything they're talking about of is fictional... as if they didn't know.

Check the post of pjd in here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=187175&highlight=trek). You'll see what I mean.

Btw, do you know where my lines come from?

[SPOOFE]

I didn't see any hundred-to-one mobs in the movie, did you?
So the only thing that exists is what is shown onscreen? Nope, read the novelisation. The ewoks won through sheer force of numbers.

And besides, even with 100-to-1 odds, one decent minefield and a few automatic weapons with good spray would have done the job.
Assuming conventional defense tactics. The Empire, despite anticipating the Rebel's arrival, had to maintain the appearance of not expecting anyone to get on the planet. Why would they mount such insane defenses if all they had to worry about was the occasional ewok? It's obvious that it wasn't until AFTER the Rebels arrived that the native population posed no serious threat to the Empire... hence the lousy defense.

[SPOOFE]

It's obvious that it wasn't until AFTER the Rebels arrived that the native population posed no serious threat to the Empire
Rather, "It's obvious that it wasn't until AFTER the Rebels arrived that the native population posed a serious threat to the Empire"...

Shut up, I'm tired.

[Grousser]

Mods: Please don't ban trolling entities like Duderdude2. They are exposing themselves enough, and they are vital for the evolution of healthy discussions: preys who seems predators, and they only prey themselves. Think about it.
;)

[Duderdude2]

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mtroll.html

I do not see myself as a troll. I was merely making a point, one that you could have chosen to ignore (but decided against, apparently), but instead followed up with insults and accusations. I did not pull a random-post-and-leave tactic, but instead stayed and supplied details to back up my thesis. I fail to see how anything I said in regards to Star Wars personally offended you, it's not as if it was a racist joke, which of course would be unacceptable. It seems if anyone takes a stance opposite of yours, you define them as a "troll". I find that behavior very interesting. This is my message board just as much as it is your's.

[Duderdude2]

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mtroll.html

I do not see myself as a troll. I was merely making a point, one that you could have chosen to ignore (but decided against, apparently), but instead followed up with insults and accusations. I did not pull a random-post-and-leave tactic. You instead stayed and supplied details to back up my thesis. I fail to see how anything I said in regards to Star Wars personally offended you, it's not as if it was a racist joke, which of course would be unacceptable. It seems if anyone takes a stance opposite of yours, you define them as a "troll". I find that behavior very interesting. This is my message board just as much as it is your's.

[Miller]

Originally posted by Duderdude2
It’s not my problem if you lack the mental competence to neglect me. Seems you’re just angry at yourself.


I'm too stupid to ignore you, is that it? Yeah, that's the sort of attitude I expected from someone like you. "Hey, it's not my fault you got pissed at me for acting like a dick. You should have better control of your emotions!" Riiiight.

Hey, Grousser, where is that quote from, anyway?

[Duderdude2]

Damn, didn’t hit stop fast enough to prevent the first post. Oh well.

[Duderdude2]

Originally posted by Miller
I'm too stupid to ignore you, is that it? Yeah, that's the sort of attitude I expected from someone like you. "Hey, it's not my fault you got pissed at me for acting like a dick. You should have better control of your emotions!" Riiiight.

Whoever said I was pissed? I quite enjoy responding to your posts.

[SPOOFE]

And here I was expecting that I would be causing all the trouble. Ah well, another "good" Star Wars thread, down the drain.

[Bryan Ekers]

Heck, it's not over til it's over, or until Lucas runs out of money.

I remember one essayist criticizing the original Death Star's destruction as equivalent to "a bunch of rock-throwing kids overrunning the Pentagon." Heck, you'd think a major battlestation would have a permanent contigent of major support ships, any of which could blow a bunch of X-Wings away.

Babylon 5 handles some of these things a little better, especially when you see one capital ship launching missiles at another, and the target ship casually shooting those missiles with some kind of energy weapon, or missiles of its own. Defense should be much easier than offense in any kind of space battle.

[Rhum Runner]

Originally posted by SPOOFE
Assuming conventional defense tactics. The Empire, despite anticipating the Rebel's arrival, had to maintain the appearance of not expecting anyone to get on the planet. Why would they mount such insane defenses if all they had to worry about was the occasional ewok? It's obvious that it wasn't until AFTER the Rebels arrived that the native population posed no serious threat to the Empire... hence the lousy defense.

I am in no position to doubt your SW lore, but, a mine field, a clearing, a few machine gun nests type things = "insane defenses"? Come on! If they wanted to be really crafty about it, they would have laid out the mines, and left the jungle, then once Luke is captured, they could have blown all the furries to hell. Option two, call in some fighter support from the GIANT SPACE STATION IN ORBIT when things start to look bad.! The way they constantly leave massive gaps in their defenses helps move the stroy, no doubt, but it is hugely annoying.

[mske]

Hey duderdude2, please list some of your favourite things so we can piss all over them.

As for the Empire, why does everything involve "lure them into this trap" (second Death Star, freezing people, let the Falcon get away). Just use your overwhelming numbers and "Shock and Awe" the whiny rebels out of existence.

[Fern Forest]

Double-D 2, It's obvious you have some sort of opinion on the subject, otherwise your passions wouldn't have been stirred so much so that it made you open the thread, wait for it, read it and then post here. I'm guessing that you have anger which comes from being unable to create a coherent view of this Lucas universe. My advise is simply don't try because it's impossible. Lucas is a very fallible person so there are many contradictions and out right stupid things going on. But it's still fun to try and come up with a reason. Heck trying to create logical solutions to odd situations is a very fun game. Didn't you ever play those games at college? Somebody says something wacky and you take and try and form a complete picture. For instance there was a rat on "Last Comic Standing" and Rich Vos composed an entire dossier on the rat. Doesn't mean anything, it's just fun.




It should be Bryan, although I wonder how many lives were lost because in our military because some General wanted to do something this way or viewed as Admiral in another branch as a rival.

It's a great out for these kinds of arguments. Even though it was Lucas' mistake to make them that way in the first place once you delve into the fantasy world you can just assign most faults to general human stupidity.

[dalovindj]

The Living Force made em design stuff stupid and make bad decisoins . . .

[Mars Horizon]

Either that, or their space robots could not protect them from the terr... oh, never mind. :)

[Bryan Ekers]

Well, the main reason the Empire's military is so incompetent is that Darth keeps "remote-choking" the senior staff:

"You came out of hyperspace too early!" "GASP! CHOKE!" *thud*
"You let the Millenium Falcon get away!" "GASP! CHOKE!" *thud*
"You came back and didn't bring pie!" "GASP! CHOKE!" *thud*

By the time of ROTJ, the shield station was being guarded by Admiral (recently promoted from Sergeant) Nosepicker J. Dumbass.

[Fern Forest]

I heard there were a bunch of Assholes as well.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally posted by SPOOFE
Why would they mount such insane defenses if all they had to worry about was the occasional ewok? It's obvious that it wasn't until AFTER the Rebels arrived that the native population posed no serious threat to the Empire... hence the lousy defense.

Just as a matter of principle, I'd have exterminated the Ewoks. I mean, I'm using the moon for my top secret weapons project, and there's no real military or economic benefit to keeping the Ewoks alive. They're not even humans...just stinking aliens.

[Bippy the Beardless]

Remember the Ewoks enjoyed eating humanoids. Probably the Empire kept them arround to deter visitors. They would have eaten the rebels if C3PO hadn't been Gold.

[Drastic]

Originally posted by Mars Horizon
Either that, or their space robots could not protect them from the terr... oh, never mind. :)
THE EMPEROR: Then, young Skywalker...you will die.
*zapzapzapzap*
LUKE: Ow! Father! Ow!
DARTH VADER: (reaching a decision) My master, please go stand by the reactor shaft. So I can protect you.

[Kaspar Hauser]

Also, wasn't pretty much the entire Empire being mentally micro-managed by the Emperor? Maybe that's why the Endor battle was so pathetic, because Palpatine was so distracted by the fun of Luke vs. Vader that the ground troops were left to their own unsupervised stupidity.

[SPOOFE]

I am in no position to doubt your SW lore, but, a mine field, a clearing, a few machine gun nests type things = "insane defenses"? Come on!
Considering that the Empire felt that they had mounted their installation on the galactic equivalent of Disneyland, yeah. And remember, they had a shield generator that (normally) prevented anybody from getting on the planet. What did they have to worry about?

Remember, just about any and all of the Emperor's (and, by extension, the Empire's) shortcomings can easily be explained by simple arrogance. Palpatine thought that he saw all futures, arrogantly believing that nothing of significance would happen that he didn't foresee. 'Course, he forgot the all-important rule.... "Always in motion is the future."

As for the Empire, why does everything involve "lure them into this trap" (second Death Star, freezing people, let the Falcon get away). Just use your overwhelming numbers and "Shock and Awe" the whiny rebels out of existence.
How? They had no idea where the Rebels WERE. Sure, I guess they could've just killed every single citizen under Imperial control, but it's kinda daft to destroy your own resource base, isn't it?

[Rhum Runner]

Originally posted by SPOOFE
Considering that the Empire felt that they had mounted their installation on the galactic equivalent of Disneyland, yeah. And remember, they had a shield generator that (normally) prevented anybody from getting on the planet. What did they have to worry about?

Ok, even if it was Disneyworld, I don't think defenses consisting of a bit more than a few troops is out of line, but let's assume that the defenses were ok. Why no airsupport once the shit hit the fan? The Death Star and Imperial fleet is overhead, after all. They couldn't spare 5 fighters to drop in and help the grunts on the ground? No helicopteresque close air support? I'm just saying, for the shield generator that is guarding the Ultimate Weapon, one would have thought a little more attention would have been paid...

[Bryan Ekers]

Heck, even Disneyland has that geeky pimple-faced minimum-wage-earner asking to see your ticket.

The Empire didn't even put that much effort into defense.

[Mr. Excellent]

Originally posted by rjung
I didn't see any hundred-to-one mobs in the movie, did you?

And besides, even with 100-to-1 odds, one decent minefield and a few automatic weapons with good spray would have done the job. As Rhum Runner said, not even a clearing...

As someone else mentioned, it's safe to assume that war in the Empire would be *very* different from wars on 21st century Earth. Maybe there are issues that make "kill zones" a really bad idea. For example - and this is just off the cuff, so don't be *too* hard on me if it sucks :) - maybe a large clearing would be too conspicuous from orbit, and too easy to target with orbital weapons. I mean, *we* can see cars very easily from orbit - a large clearing would probably be very easy for ships in the Star Wars universe to detect, and this would tell them exactly where the shield generator is.

Of course, the Rebels already knew. But if memory serves, this is the result of intelligence, not direct sensor readings. Perhaps if a hostile force just stumbled across the death star under construction, they might *not* be able to detect the ground-based generator in the normal course of things. I'm not a star wars expert, though - I leave it to those who are to say if my BSing has merit.

[Mr. Excellent]

Originally posted by Captain Amazing
Just as a matter of principle, I'd have exterminated the Ewoks. I mean, I'm using the moon for my top secret weapons project, and there's no real military or economic benefit to keeping the Ewoks alive. They're not even humans...just stinking aliens.

Unless you want to sterilize the planet with nuclear weapons ("I say we nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."), killing all the Ewoks is going to be a messy, messy business. I'd be all in favor of it myself - they're too annoyingly cute for my tastes - but consider that without nukes, this is *not* something you can just do from the air without nukes - even Ewoks could probably dig bomb shelters. And you don't want to use nukes, because then you take a perfectly good habitable moon and make it uninhabitable for a very look time. Even in a Galaxy-spanning empire with millions of worlds, and a demonstrated willingness to blow them up entirely if need be, that has to be a bad economic move. There are so many things you can get from a habitable world - food, water, shore leave, housing, the list goes on and on - that just nuking it seems like a bad policy decision. Princess Leia's world (can't remember the name) was a security risk, in the mind of the Empire. That's not quite the case here, yet.

So, you can't nuke all the Ewoks. Nor can you simply firebomb the forests - how long will you have a functional ecology, or even a breathable atmosphere, after that kind of holocaust? So you're limited to air attacks - which will have limited effectiveness - and ground assault. As someone already mentioned, in a ground combat situation the Ewoks have the home turf advantage and vast numerical superiority - this would turn into the Empire's Vietnam. And once they started. they couldn't give up, because any operations on the ground - like running a shield generator - would face the threat of Ewok assault.

In short, a world war of extermination would be unwinnable unless the Empire used weapons that would make their victory pointless.

[tanstaafl]

Also, given that the destruction of the Death Star probably resulted in the complete destruction of the Endor ecosystem (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html) (not to mention the probable extinction of the Ewoks) the Empire probably thought the Rebels would never try it. ;)

[HPL]

Originally posted by Duderdude2
Then there’s the AT-ATs which are the most impractical offensive weapons ever fabricated. A mammoth machine, which walks and apparently lacks any safety features are being utilized to “quickly” take out a shield generator. Is the technology in Star Wars so lagging that they’ve never developed nukes, or even simple bombs for that matter ?

Well, I don't know if you remember, but the shield generator was preventing a planetary bombardment. That's why the used the walkers, because they just landed outside the shield(which I guess only protected the area around the base and not the entire planet) and attacked on the surface.

And notice despite being rather cumbersome, the rebels only managed to knock out two of them. If nothing else, they are worth it for the "Oh ****" value. Namely, you hear a far off pounding, you see little black dots on the horizen. You look at them through a telescope, see how big they are and go "Oh ****".

[HPL]

Originally posted by Bryan Ekers
Heck, it's not over til it's over, or until Lucas runs out of money.

I remember one essayist criticizing the original Death Star's destruction as equivalent to "a bunch of rock-throwing kids overrunning the Pentagon." Heck, you'd think a major battlestation would have a permanent contigent of major support ships, any of which could blow a bunch of X-Wings away.


Though wouldn't such support ships be rather large and slow compared to the fighters, who could just evade them and continue down?

In X-wing(the computer game), before you can attack the death star surface, you have to take out a crtical satillite in orbit of the death stay. Near the satillite are a couple corvettes and a star destoryer, which aren't anything to worry about unless you get close enough for them to shoot at you. The fighters they launch.....on the other hand.

[Grousser]

Come on, I'm not insulting you! Don't you see it? I'm deffending you! Sorry, now I see you're not a troll.

But the effects are disquietingly similar.

Btw (again), I don't find this matter offending. I find it funny.

[Grousser]

The above message was for Duderdude2, in response to:

I do not see myself as a troll. I was merely making a point, one that you could have chosen to ignore (but decided against, apparently), but instead followed up with insults and accusations. I did not pull a random-post-and-leave tactic. You instead stayed and supplied details to back up my thesis. I fail to see how anything I said in regards to Star Wars personally offended you, it's not as if it was a racist joke, which of course would be unacceptable. It seems if anyone takes a stance opposite of yours, you define them as a "troll". I find that behavior very interesting. This is my message board just as much as it is your's.

[Grousser]

Excuse me. Just to answer a question from Miller: Lines come from Ubik by Philip K. Dick.

And this is the last post I put in this thread, before someone tells me that I have nothing to contribute to SW. Unless I'm asked again, of course.



Coding fixed at poster's request. But don't all start asking for that, now. -- Uke

[Miller]

There's a good reason why there was no kill zone in front of the shield generator bunker. Palpatine wanted the Rebels to get in. Remember, the whole thing was a trap from the beginning. And a mine field wouldn't have done any good anyway, because as soon as the ewoks showed up, the battle quickly moved away from the bunker and into the woods, where the ewoks were able to go all Viet Cong on the stormtroopers. I still maintain that the whole ewok battle could have been salvaged in the Special Edition if Lucas had just added lots and lots of ewoks getting killed. Like, hundreds of them getting mowed down by blaster fire, with thousands more waiting to fill in the gaps.

BTW, Duderdude, having got some sleep, I should really apologize to you for flaming you outside the pit. As annoying as I find the eternal chorus of "Why do you even care?" in these sorts of threads, there was still no excuse for that.

[Ukulele Ike]

Okay, all you kids behave yourselves now. I've got my eye on you.

[Miller]

Ha! Got my apology in before the mod warning. I am so damn smooth.

[rjung]

YAROTJESP (Yet Another Return of the Jedi Empire Security Problem):

Why did the Death Star II only have one shield generator on Endor? Hasn't anyone heard of "redundant backup"?

[Ukulele Ike]

Well, you know you're excepted from any reprimands, Miller.

C'mere for huggies.

[SPOOFE]

Rhum Runner...

Ok, even if it was Disneyworld, I don't think defenses consisting of a bit more than a few troops is out of line
They were trying to trap the Rebels. The reason I am pursuing this so fervently is because the whole "The Empire didn't have enough defense" is perfectly explained by one of the biggest plot twists of the entire movie. As such, people that make that criticism, in my opinion, are either just being contrary, or didn't pay attention to the movie.

Anyway, if the Empire had layed out impossible-to-penetrate defenses for the Rebels, the Rebels wouldn't have tried to penetrate the defenses, and as such they wouldn't have fallen for the trap. The Emperor took a risk to exterminate the Rebellion that had been plaguing him for over half a decade, and his gamble didn't pay off.

Why no airsupport once the shit hit the fan? The Death Star and Imperial fleet is overhead, after all. They couldn't spare 5 fighters to drop in and help the grunts on the ground?
No. There was a shield covering the planet (remember when Han had to transmit a code to drop the shield to land on the moon?). Dropping the shield would have allowed Rebel fighters to slip in and do their own carpet-bombing of the shield generator that they were trying to keep active.

No helicopteresque close air support?
This one, however, IS a tad odd. I find it odd that the only mechanized units the Empire had were those speeder bikes and some AT-ST's (and, well, an AT-AT, but that's pretty useless in the thick jungle). They should have had a couple heavier speeders on hand.

'Course, remember, they were convinced that the troops they had were adequate... and they would have been, if not for the massive numbers of Ewoks that helped.

That's the important thing to keep in mind: The Emperor anticipated a small Rebel strike force. The number of troops and infantry vehicles on hand would have been FAR more than enough to control that situation (and it was... remember, the Emperor's plan was working PERFECTLY until the Ewok's showed up).

Mr. Excellent...

maybe a large clearing would be too conspicuous from orbit, and too easy to target with orbital weapons.
Or, most obviously, maybe a giant clearing would have completely destroyed the purpose of having a SECRET entrance.

Taanstafl

Also, given that the destruction of the Death Star probably resulted in the complete destruction of the Endor ecosystem
Heh, I don't even need to click on that link to know that it's Curtis Saxton's Endor Holocaust essay. I typically agree with that work, but in that case I think he was too eager to create a controversy or something... for one thing, he completely ignores the fact that, several hours later - when the area immediately beneath the Death Star should have been a giant smoldering wasteland - Ewoks and Rebels were partying like it was 1999. Further, he ignores EU evidence which describes Endor as thriving and abundant years after ROTJ.

In short, I think he's too quick to assume the lack of any mechanism to prevent the so-called "Endor Holocaust" from happening.

[Miller]

Originally posted by Ukulele Ike
Well, you know you're excepted from any reprimands, Miller.

C'mere for huggies.

You mean the diaper?

[Mister Rik]

One easy reason for stormtrooper inaccuracy/ineffectiveness: the vast majority were unwilling conscripts. They didn't even want to be doing what they were doing. And for some of them, maybe dying in combat was preferrable to continuing to serve a tyrannical government.

[Vlad Dracul]

Some more possibilities for explaining stormtroopers:

Maybe the typical stormtrooper joins up because it's the only job left that his natural incompetence hasn't gotten him fired from... yet.

Maybe the stormtroopers include a lot of first-time juvenile offenders who are given the "if you join the Troopers, I won't throw you in jail" option by a judge.

Maybe all the SMART prospects have found draft deferments of one kind or another: student status, work in a strategically-important field, etc.

Maybe there are so many stormtroopers rotating through the training camps that standards have been lowered drastically in order to get them in and out before the next batch arrives.

Maybe there's a thriving hallucinogenic-drug subculture among the stormtroopers. They can't hit you, because they can't tell which of you is the REAL one! :)