If clues were WMDs, I'd be Iraq

[Miller]

I didn't date much in highschool. Okay, that's on overstatement. I didn't date at all in highschool. Not once. This has always sort of bothered me, and I've chalked it up to a lot of reasons: I was overweight, I was a geek, whatever. The truth of the matter is, I didn't date much because I am the single stupidest person on Earth.

Here's why: I lived about half a mile from school. Since I never got around to getting my drivers liscence, I walked to and from everyday. Late in my senior year, this girl from my class that I only knew vaguely started offering me rides. She was very friendly. Kinda pretty, as I recall. The ride was less than five minutes, so we didn't get to talk a whole lot, but she seemed like a cool person. This went on for about a week and half, maybe two weeks. Then it stopped. I'd see her around school and all, but we never talked afterwards. I was a little disappointed that I had to walk home again, but it wasn't a really big deal. This was about nine years ago.

About an hour ago, I sat bolt-upright in bed, smacked myself in the forehead, and shouted, "Why the hell didn't I ask her out?!" I mean, holy fuck, she was practically throwing herself at me. She couldn't have been more obviously interested if she'd taken her top off. How the hell did I not pick up on that? How in the name of all that's holy could I just get out of that car with nothing more than a "Thanks for the ride" without that soggy wad of cheescloth that passes for my brain even once dredging up the thought, "Hey, loser! Ask her what she's doing this weekend!" Where the hell was my reproductive urge? How could I be so self-absorbed? The first human to show the slightest inkling of romantic interest in me, and I can't even remember her name!

God, how many other times has this happened? I mean, what sort of... Aw, fuck, Alix! Alix who sat next to me every day when I was taking that weird theater appreciation class in college. Alix who hung out with me during the class break. Alix who was completely fucking hot! Oh my God, she was hot! And did I ask her out? Ask for her phone number? No, I just cut class at every opportunity once I realized the teacher didn't bother to take roll. Nice job, Casanova! Probably the single most beautiful woman who will ever speak to me of her own free will, and I decide I'd rather be home playing fucking computer games! AARRGH! I'm so disgusted with myself I'm literally sick to my stomach. I'm a goddamned walking coma patient! This is more concentrated stupidity than can be found anywhere on Earth outside of Congress. There are single-celled amoeba who are better than me at relating to the opposite sex.

That's it. Where the hell is the meat cleaver? I don't deserve to have a penis. Say goodbye, Spanky.

[Orbifold]

Put the cleaver down, Mr. Miller...that's it...we're cool...Spanky doesn't deserve to die...

Seriously, I can so relate. I can think of one woman who did all but rent a billboard saying "Hi, I'm attractive, available, and quite possibly interested" when I was in university, but did I notice? Nope. And my wife practically had to hit me over the head with a club and drag me back to her cave by my hair. But take heart: there do exist women stubborn and patient enough to beat the facts into our tiny little skulls. They're rare, but they exist and are my best evidence that the universe is not a cold heartless void.

[jjimm]

You're not alone, brother. My life is full of these moments of epiphany. Now I'm married, but occasionally I still wake up at night quite a lot and go "you fucking idiot!!!"

Best example of my utter cluelesness and lack of confidence: the hottest girl I've ever known invited me to stay the night, took me to her room, which she'd filled with candles, and said to me "I wish I had a double bed". I still didn't think I was in with a chance. :smack: I slept on the floor. :smack: :smack: :smack:

[jjimm]

By the way, my wife actually had to say "I really fancy you" before I realised that she did.

With a couple of exceptions, every woman I've ever gone out with has had to chase me down. Some of us just don't have the "thing" that allows other men to recognise a come-on when they see it.

[wring]

I really like your thread title. :D

[Kamandi]

Originally posted by Miller
...This was about nine years ago.

About an hour ago, I sat bolt-upright in bed...

This was one of the funniest punchlines I've read here in a long time. Thank you, Miller. :)

And by the way, I can so relate.

Take heart, big guy. What Alix and that girl from high school saw in you is likely still there today, luring the chicks like moths to the flame of your hotness. Go get 'em, Tiger! :D

[Tuckerfan]

I had the same realization once as well and went over the number of women who were most likely throwing themselves at me. It rapidly entered the double digits before I stopped counting. What pisses me off, is that I can easily tell when an unattractive woman is throwing herself at me, but when a gorgeous woman is trying to get my attention, I've no idea. What's worse, is that as I get older, the number of women who throw themselves at me (both attractive and unattractive) is getting smaller.:(

[Miller]

Originally posted by jjimm
Best example of my utter cluelesness and lack of confidence: the hottest girl I've ever known invited me to stay the night, took me to her room, which she'd filled with candles, and said to me "I wish I had a double bed". I still didn't think I was in with a chance. I slept on the floor.

Okay, that one I think even I would have gotten.

[Zenster]

Best. Thread. Title. Ever.

[Ephemera]

In jjimm's defense, I probably would have slept on the floor too. Or possibly in the same bed but scrunched up on the opposite side. Confidence is my archenemy.

[GuanoLad]

What does it mean when you often think they're interested but they never are?

My life is the opposite of your examples. I ask women out who, it turns out, think I'm a weirdo, and no women have ever thrown themselves at me. They all say "one day you'll find that special someone" which includes the unspoken "it ain't ever gonna be me, though, you odd little man".

[Uncommon Sense]

What`d your hormones just first kick in like around 9:00 this morning?
Actually, I passed up wayyyy too many chicks in highschool myself.
Didn`t have the self-confidence to engage the opposite sex in anything other than looking at their tests for answers.

That all changed about two years later. I finally got the hint when a waitress I worked with invited me over to her house on a regular basis and would get me drunk. She would even change out of her wait clothes and into her PJ`s right in front of me. Damn!
It`s been uphill ever since.

[Uncommon Sense]

Originally posted by Miller
Okay, that one I think even I would have gotten.

Me too. I did get a chance to act on that once.
Took this girl to a concert for a first date. Got back to her place and she pulled out the couch for me to crash on. She came out of her bedroom a few seconds later because her sister had fallen
asleep in her bed, so she said. Asked if I could spare some room on the couch. Ah, Yeah!

[Asylum]

Miller, I love you man. I've been there and done that. (Well, not nine years later, but...).

This one time a cute girl came into my store looking for someplace to have some copies made and since it was 11:30pm on a Sunday I offered to let her use the copier we have in the store. As I'm making copies for her we get to chatting and find out that she goes to UMCP and I go to UMBC (sister schools), she's majoring in Psychology and I'm majoring in Sociology and used to major in Pysch, we talk about the foreign languages we've taken and I mention Greek and, lo and behold, I'm photocoping stuff for her Greek Lit class. After we're done and she's leaving she says "Well, I'm gonna go home now."
"Okay, take it easy."
"Yeah, nothing to do but work on my paper."
Me, edging away to get to work "Good luck on it."
"Yeah, I'm probably gonna be up late."
"I hope it's not too late, you've got school in the morning!" (grin)

When I get back to my department a guy from the office who was originally helping her (I came in in the middle of their conversation) asks me if I got her number.

I still have the red mark on my forehead.

Story two
There was an attractive young lady who worked in my store and was in the management training program. She was a bit bossy and annoying at work ("Why is that empty? Shouldn't you be loading that?!" "Um, no, because we're sold out?" sort of stuff) and would yell into the store's loudspeaker. I'd run into her outside of work and hung out with her (in a group) and she was pretty cool then, so I figured she was just one of those people who figured that the best way to manage people is to be bossy but otherwise was okay. On her last day at my store before being transferred (part of the training is hitting a variety of stores) she came through my department and asked one of her inane questions, although I can't remember what it was now (to be honest I think that most management questions are inane, but she was really good at it). Later on in the day she came outside while I was on my break and came up to this L-shaped wall around an emergency exit that I was sitting on smoking a cigarette, rested her head on it, looked up at me and said "Today's my last day here."
"Yeah, so I heard."
"So. Are you going to miss me?"
Feeling slightly peevish after her earlier inane question "Well, I can give you piece of advice, lower your voice when you talk into the intercom."
She shot me a look that would melt diamonds and walked off.

Later on I was telling this story to a friend of mine. When I was done he looked at me funny. Then he slapped me upside my head.

[Sinshine]

So it's okay for a woman to occasionally miss the boat, too?

God, I hope so!

[Ale]

Here I go:

While working on a store there was this girl that I really REALLY liked, one day she comes and tells me that she heard that one of the store girls has a crush on me, "really, who could it be", I started naming all the girls and the answer was always "no, not she". Some time later I realized the dagger eyes she gave me after listing all the girls EXCEPT her. :smack: number 1

:smack: number two is as gross as it gets

Scene: highschool projections room, girl: Sabrina, the most beautiful intelligent and lovable girl you can imagine, script:

Sabrina: Would you like to be my boyfriend?

Ale: Uh?

I still think of her every week or two and how on Earth can I be so stupid and clueless... :(

[TeaRoses]

High School Dance:

Girl: TeaRoses, Mike wants to dance with you.
TeaRoses the Wallflower: Yeah, right, you're putting me on.
Girl: What are you afraid of, he'll have an erection or something?
TeaRoses (honestly not believing Mike said one word about this, unless it was a bad joke): Not funny. Go away.

Graduation:

Mike gives TeaRoses a big hug and kiss.
TeaRoses the freaking idiot: He probably did want to dance to with me.
TeaRoses says "DUH!!!" at regular intervals throughout her life and wishes Mike the best.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

The girl sitting behind me in US History in the 11th grade was nice, and pretty, and talked to me. One day, she came in with her homework all typed up. I asked her if she did anything besides study. She said "I go out, if I'm asked."

I replied "Nngh."

My brain, being 15 at the time, was sorta slow. But within a month, I finally asked her out.

We've been married for quite a while now.

All due to my brain finally starting to work.

[Waverly]

It took you nine years to figure this out? You must be a blast to play Trivial Pursuit with.

Not that I should talk. I had a different, and arguably worse, problem in high school. I did go on dates, but probably only seized about a quarter of the opportunities presented to me. I hung out with the ‘A’ crowd; and ignorant conformist that I was at the time, constantly worried about what their reaction would be to anyone I dated, however casually.

I remember, with no small amount of regret, one summer day while lounging near the tennis courts waiting for one to become free. One of the most beautiful girls I had ever seen (no exaggeration) was sitting next to me, just watching the matches. I knew her somewhat. She lived not far from me, but she was a year or two younger and had an older sister closer to my age. She had always gone out of her way to be friendly to me, and I already had an inkling that she was interested. My concern of course, though it makes zero sense in hindsight, was what my friends’ reaction would be to dating someone’s younger sister.

Suddenly, she hiked up her sun dress, swung a pair of long, tan legs around, and dropped her bare feet on my lap. She wanted to know if I’d like to give her tennis lessons. “Sure,” says dimwitted Waverly somewhat dismissively. “We can do that sometime.” I didn’t ask her when, didn’t get her number, didn’t in any way acknowledge the signal she had worked up the courage to send me. What a stupid bastard. I didn't say a single word further. Eventually, she got up and walked off without giving me the bright smile and cheery goodbye I had been taking for granted.

[Raygun99]

Originally posted by Miller
This was about nine years ago.

About an hour ago, I sat bolt-upright in bed, smacked myself in the forehead, and shouted, "Why the hell didn't I ask her out?!"

Ah yes, the stupiphany. I've had a few of those. When I had a broken wrist (which is just as much of a girl magnet as rumoured), I missed a blatant 'moment' with my then crush. In my defense, I was also pretty drunk.

[NightRabbit]

SIGH.

You mean you're just oblivious, not completely turned off?

This would have been nice to know a few years ago...

[sailor]

Being a bit on the slow side is *much* better than being too hasty. Ask any woman and she'll tell you a guy who is the opposite, who is pushy and makes unwelcome advances is the *worst* thing.

[Delly]

But nine years too slow?!
:p

[Smeghead]

Take heart. Sometimes doing nothing is the right thing.

I could list several girls from back in my high school days who flirted with me like crazy - and even looking back on it now, years later, I still think they were flirting with me; it wasn't just in my mind - who later turned out to want nothing to do with me. I made a complete ass of myself several times.

There was one girl in particular. We met at work, a phone center where we could choose our own station every day. She usually got there before me every day, and she'd save me a place next to her and keep her eye out for me to make sure I sat next to her. We'd talk for hours every night. We'd go to dinner together on our breaks. And she was the one instigating all this. We'd make plans to go to movies or whatnot - again, always her idea - then she'd flake out at the last minute. This went on for about a year. A couple of years later, I learned that she'd had a steady boyfriend all that time that she'd never bothered to mention. They're married, in fact, last I heard. If I live forever, I will never understand what that was all about.

[Princhester]

I'm not sure whether to take heart that I am not alone and all you guys are or were as much of a loser as I was or am, or whether to just run screaming from this thread as fast as I can to avoid being forced to even think about this topic.

Sing after me in your best Frank Sinatra style:

"Regrets, I have a few,
But then again,
Far too many to bear thinking about"

Doesn't quite scan, does it? Oh, well.

[Coldfire]

Originally posted by jjimm
By the way, my wife actually had to say "I really fancy you" before I realised that she did.

With a couple of exceptions, every woman I've ever gone out with has had to chase me down. Some of us just don't have the "thing" that allows other men to recognise a come-on when they see it. Dude, we should form a club or something. Clueless Idiots Anonymous, how does that sound?

Not that I got a tremendous amount of action in my younger years, but I did all right I suppose. But each and every time (with one or two exceptions), the girl had to pretty much kiss me before I took notice.

Same with my current girlfriend. And I can't even use the caveat of youth: I was 28 when I met her. Almost 29, in fact. It wasn't until after the third kiss that I figured she was actually being serious.

The real miracle is, for both jjimm and me, is that both of us somehow ended up with complete babes. :)

[Mtgman]

Somehow I think Clueless Idiots Anonymous is already taken...

Enjoy,
Steven

[Phatlewt]

Sign me up.

When I was a freshman in college, a girl asked me to see a volleyball game & catch a midnight showing of A Clockwork Orange with her. Sounds fun. Sounds fun enough that I thought it would be even more fun if I brought a friend! A girl. :smack:

Yeah, it was supposed to be a date. I didn't figure that out for a year... I brought a girl to a date.

[World Eater]

Hehe, good OP Miller.

[cowgirl]

I once fancied a guy who told me

"I'm really clueless and I need to get hit over the head with a shovel before I realize someone fancies me."

And I didn't hit him on the head with a shovel. Because I thought he wouldn't be interested.

So it works both ways ...

[Giraffe]

I find it easier just to block out my early romantic years. I pretend I was mangled in a car crash and spent those years relearning how to feed myself. It's better.

If I accidentally remember back, I can separate the missed opportunities (and there were many, in retrospect) into two categories: Before Mean Girlfriend and After Mean Girlfriend. The BMGs aren't quite so bad, because I was really horribly clueless. But the AMGs are truly awful, because I often knew these people liked me but thought "no, it would be wrong to break up with Mean Girlfriend. Maybe if I'm really nice to her, she'll suddenly start being nice, like the hot girl in my French class who obviously likes me." Sigh... :smack:

[Coldfire]

Originally posted by Mtgman
Somehow I think Clueless Idiots Anonymous is already taken...D'oh. :D

All right then.

United Clueless Lovers Anonymous. D'oh!
Federation of United Clueless Knobs. Hmmm.
Depressingly Obtuse Hombres. D'oh!

Ah well. We'll stick with CICBACUGA: Clueless Idiots who Can't Be Arsed to Come Up with a Good Acronym.

[Tally-Ho]

Believe me, this isn't limited to you guys. We girls suffer from it too.

Several years ago I was grumbling over email to one of my guy friends about not getting to see the new version of Star Wars. Being the poor college student that I was, I was vehicularly challenged and couldn't find a friend with wheels who wanted to see the movie. So my guy friend, Rob, offered to take me. We went, had a good time, ended up seeing Empire a few nights later, and even made plans to see Return of the Jedi.

It took one of my best girl friends telling me; "So I hear you're dating Rob.." for me to get a clue. Up until then, I'd thought it had just been a buddy thing, two pals seeing a movie...:smack:

I owe her one for opening my eyes... Rob and I've been married for over 4 years now. :D

Tally

[Futile Gesture]

I was once invited by someone I only knew slightly to a party she was throwing. I thought it was unusual, but went along anyway. During the course of the evening, a friend of the host who I had only met once before was quite attentive to me. I thought she was just being friendly. Nothing happened, I went home and scarcely ever saw her again.

Something like 10 years later it struck me, again in the middle of the night when these things spring to mind, that it had all been a set up. And never at any time had it occurred to me. :smack:

[Indygrrl]

You guys are so cute. I swear I've dated at least two or three of ya. I always seem to pick the guys who don't "get it" until I pretty much draw them a picture. hee hee. Fortunately, I don't mind the type of guy who isn't so full of himself as to think every girl wants him. Clueless guys are frustrating, but often worth it.

[Gatopescado]

This thread hurts! :D

I recently saw "one of those girls" at my high school reunion. It turns out I made the right decision all those years ago! What a nut-job!

But then again, thinking about the one that got away has turned my beard white.

____________
Women are like fish. There is an ocean full of 'em. And the smell.

[Trion]

I would like to join your organization, please.

I have never once known when a female was interested in me short of a sharp blow to the head. Actually, I never even thought that any woman was interested in me at all.

Wait. No, that's not completely true. There was one woman at a They Might Be Giants concert who I thought was into me. But it turns out....

I can't say. It's too embarrassing. Let's just say that it's a word that almost rhymes with "thespian".

[Miller]

Wow, what an amazingly cathartic thread. I no longer feel I must be the stupidest man on Earth. Top ten, maybe, but a couple of you guys have got me completely aced.

[elf6c]

Originally posted by Mtgman
Somehow I think Clueless Idiots Anonymous is already taken...



Which is somehow even funnier based on the thread title.

Oh by the way Miller:

She couldn't have been more obviously interested if she'd taken her top off. Is probably not true- I am sure even you would have spotted it then. ;)

[dwc1970]

Here's my tale of missed opportunity:

When I was 24 I was a manager at Burger King. One of the girls I worked with on the closing shift got a ride home with me every night she worked with me. Since I didn't think she should be out at night alone walking home (a good two miles or so) I often gave her the rides. One night, after dropping her off she invited me in. She had lived with her father, but he was out for the weekend (she was 18 and thus "legal", by the way). We talked for a few minutes, and I'm sure we were both thinking of having sex with each other the whole time (I know I was, that's for sure), but being that I was a manager and she was a subordinate co-worker we both must have felt it wouldn't have been appropriate. Had we each been equal co-workers we may have taken things farther. When I thought back upon it that night after going home I kicked myself. I hadn't had sex in the past four years at the time, and she would have been a damn fine piece of ass, but yet I let this one slip through my fingers.

Even though I may have missed out on a chance at getting some nookie that night, I think it was best that nothing happened. I know we would have both regretted it and it would have interfered with our work relationship. There were already rumors about us doing things with each other outside of work since I had given her rides home on the nights I closed with her, so if we did do anything and word got out I probably would have had to quit (which actually would have been a good thing snice I hated that job).

[Zanshin]

Another charter member of CICBACUGA signing in. In my younger days, there were a lot of opportunities I completely missed out on because I was too dense to see them.

My senior year in high school, I worked with this girl Cindy. She was cute and nice but I never saw anything happening between the two of us. We'd go to movies every so often, and I helped tutor her through her junior Algebra II class, so we'd meet once or twice a week for tutoring. It took three months of this... late-night study sessions, going out on weekends, hanging out with friends... before she finally sat me down one day, looked me in the eye, and said, "Look, you lunkhead. It's taken long enough, so I'll just say it. I like you. You're cute. We should go out."

And stupid me, I said, "We've gone out a couple of times, what are you talking about?"

She gave me a withering look of scorn and replied, "We should GO OUT. If you know what I mean."

"Oh."

And we did.

Stupid me.

<smote forehead>

[October]

Female checking in here. It's good for a woman's self-esteem to know that you occasionally sit up in bed and smack yourselves in the forehead. Usually we think you're not interested and get our feelings hurt, and then we feel stupid for being so OBVIOUS about liking you, and then getting shot down. And then we hate you for being such dicks.

NOTE TO ALL MEN: If a woman makes eye contact with you, flirts with you, touches you (this is HUGE--there's usually this unspoken "touch barrier" that women generally don't break unless they're interested), or maneuvers to get you alone, SHE'S INTERESTED IN YOU.

[mischievous]

Can I tell a vicarious story without looking mean?

My lover is of your ilk. I pretty much threw him on a bed before he got a clue - but that's another story.

He and I are out at a club. We have a open relationship. There is a band that night, and we're friends of the people who invited them, so we've been asked to ferry them around (we have a car, our friends don't). The lead singer of the band is one of the hottest females I've ever laid eyes on. My lover is practically drooling.

So, I'm seeing her play with his hair as we're driving the band around. Not being completely obtuse, I promptly absent myself so that they can hook up without the "girlfriend" around. But we're at the same club. And I see her hanging on his arm. I see her pulling him out on the dance floor. I see her body-slam him into a wall and sliiiiiiiide herself along his body to pass him in the hallway.

He never got it.




*sigh*

mischievous

And that's far from the only clueless-boy story I could tell about this man.

[Wintermute]

All right, I'm a girl, but I think I've got you all beat:

One exceptionally hot August day, about 6 or 7 years ago, my sister, her boyfriend and I went to hear my friend, Ginny, play. It was supposed be an outdoor afternoon gig, but it was so hot they moved it indoors.

I had something minor but important I wanted to discuss with another friend, Veronica, who was there. Veronica was selling the CDs and then helping pack up, so she was busy. I was following her around, trying to catch her attention long enough to get an answer to my question/issue from her.

Meanwhile, there was a guy there that I'd seen at a few of Ginny's gigs. He was by himself, and would chat with me or ask me a question whenever I stood still. I answered him distractedly, far more concerned with cornering Veronica.

Later, he was still hanging around even after all the other people had gone, and it was just the core group of musicians, their SOs and close friends. We were discussing going for pizza after we had packed up the cars, and he said, "Pizza sounds great!". Unfortunately for him, we decided it was too hot to eat, got in our cars and went home.

A little while later, A.C., my sister's boyfriend said to me, "You know, that guy liked you."

Me: "What guy?"

A.C.: "That guy at the gig."

Me: "??....What guy at the gig?"

A.C.: "You know, that guy who was hanging around. He liked you."

Me: "??....:smack: Ohhh!....I wondered what he wanted!"

So, you see, I am so completely clueless, so perfectly oblivious, I have to have other people tell me when I missed an opportunity! I simply would never have figured it out if it hadn't been pointed out to me. I honestly just thought he wanted to hang out with the group.

I think never beats nine years!

He turned up at another gig that I was supposed to go to but ended up blowing off, to my sister's extreme annoyance. (Not that I missed him, but that I blew her off, too) We've never seen him since.

[dropzone]

I hope the women reading this thread are getting the message that, with many guys, SUBTLETY DOESN'T WORK. Don't think you're being subtle? Think, in fact, that you are being as obvious as a streetwalker but it still doesn't work? You are being too subtle or else he's gay. Many, many men couldn't pick up a cue with a shovel.

Solution? Ask the guy out. He won't think you are too "forward." If he even realizes that you are asking him out he'll be amazed that you or any woman thinks of him "like that," but he probably won't figure that much out.

[Wintermute]

Ok, on preview, any man who has a woman slide her body across his and still doesn't pick up on it has got to be the President of Clueless. How he's getting laid I don't know.

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by dropzone
I hope the women reading this thread are getting the message that, with many guys, SUBTLETY DOESN'T WORK. Don't think you're being subtle? Think, in fact, that you are being as obvious as a streetwalker but it still doesn't work? You are being too subtle or else he's gay. Many, many men couldn't pick up a cue with a shovel.

Let's look at this. You like this guy. You do all the girly things; you flutter your eyelashes, laugh at his jokes, admire his muscles, etc., and he's not picking up on it. How far are you supposed to go? Show up naked in his bed? (And according to some of the posts here, even that doesn't work). Just imagine how humiliating it would be if you did show up in his bed and he said, "Let's just be friends."

I say, if he doesn't pick up on your flirting, move on. Far easier on the ego to contemplate what might have been rather than being shot down cruelly.

Originally posted by dropzone
Solution? Ask the guy out. He won't think you are too "forward." If he even realizes that you are asking him out he'll be amazed that you or any woman thinks of him "like that," but he probably won't figure that much out.

Sorry, this is where you are wrong. Girls who ask guys out are considered sluts. The guy she's asking won't think she's too "forward", he'll think she only wants in his pants.

[Giraffe]

Originally posted by dropzone
I hope the women reading this thread are getting the message that, with many guys, SUBTLETY DOESN'T WORK. Don't think you're being subtle? Think, in fact, that you are being as obvious as a streetwalker but it still doesn't work? You are being too subtle or else he's gay. Many, many men couldn't pick up a cue with a shovel.

Solution? Ask the guy out. He won't think you are too "forward." If he even realizes that you are asking him out he'll be amazed that you or any woman thinks of him "like that," but he probably won't figure that much out. It seems to me that the problem here lies with the clueless, not those who make futile attempts to date them. While the girls are off learning how to menstruate, there should be some sort of class for guys where they explain the basic idea of signals and teach guys to at least be aware of the possibility that a girl might at some point like them. Show pictures of famous ugly guys with hot girlfriends to drive the point home (too bad Lyle Lovett isn't still married to Julia Roberts...)

[Miller]

Originally posted by Wintermute
Sorry, this is where you are wrong. Girls who ask guys out are considered sluts. The guy she's asking won't think she's too "forward", he'll think she only wants in his pants.

This is so, so, so not true. Believe me, most guys love the idea of the woman making the first move. I can't iamgine why this myth has lasted as long as it has. It's got to be the sort of thing women tell each other, because I know it's not coming from men. If any guys think I'm wrong on this, please speak up so I can kick your ass for making it harder for the rest of us.

[Coldfire]

Wintermute, no offence, but what century do you live in?

If a girl asked me out, I'd be flattered. There are plenty of reasons for considering a woman a slut: this isn't one of them, by a long shot.

[mischievous]

Originally posted by Wintermute
Ok, on preview, any man who has a woman slide her body across his and still doesn't pick up on it has got to be the President of Clueless. How he's getting laid I don't know.

Yup, President of Clueless he is. But he's highly intelligent (in other matters), wonderfully cool, and godawful cute, so there's plenty of boys and girls out there who make the effort to get there (besides me, of course).

If I like them, I give them advice. If not, they're on their own.

mischievous

[GuanoLad]

Why can't we all just tell people stuff? What's with all this 'dropping hints' crap anyway? It'd be so much easier if we could go up to people and say "Hey. Wanna fuck?"

"No."

"Cool. Hey, what about you, wanna fuck?"

"Sure."

That'd work so much better.

[Avalonian]

I could be a member of CICBACUGA as well, and I think my wife would agree. She sometimes points out to me a girl we were just talking to in a store or something was blatantly flirting, and I'll go "eh?" Clever, no?

Probably the most obvious one I missed, but realized much later, was one of my best friends several years ago. Her and I would go out to lunch, talk about what we were reading or whatever. She was sometimes a bit touchy-feely, but that just seemed to be her personality. She told me once about a dream she had where her and I kissed, but we often talked about our dreams... I dismissed it as just idle talk. The one that really kills me, however, which I only realized was a fairly obvious come-on from her, was when we went to her place for some tea. Up in her room, she was sitting on her bed, leaning back a bit, talking about dreams again... and she's chewing on a pencil or a straw or something. I mention it, and she starts telling me about this "oral fixation" she has, how much she loves to put things in her mouth. She gives me a loooong look.

And somehow, I completely missed it. I laughed it off or said something really stupid. Funny thing was, had I recognized it, I would have been so interested.

I'm not entirely clueless, however. I can lay claim to recognizing flirtation at least twice. Once, meeting some friends in a bar, a girl I didn't know, clearly completely drunk, grabbed my shoulder and said "Hey, my friends wants to go out with a hot guy... you available?" Yes, friends, that was flirting, and I flashed my wedding ring accordingly.

And of course, I did manage to notice when it was most important... when the friend-of-a-friend girl who went to the Haunted House with us grabbed on to me repeatedly throughout the ride, even at several points when it wasn't really scary. I went home and my shirt smelled richly of her perfume. A few weeks later we were going out, and not too much later we were married. Still are, in fact.

So, I have noticed it a couple times... but I know for a fact that I miss it far more than I see it. Can I still be a member?

[Smeghead]

Originally posted by Wintermute

Sorry, this is where you are wrong. Girls who ask guys out are considered sluts. The guy she's asking won't think she's too "forward", he'll think she only wants in his pants.

I can only speak for myself, but I'd love nothing more than for a woman to ask me out. I certainly wouldn't think less of her. On the contrary, I'd love the fact that she's comfortable and confident enough to do that, not to mention that she thinks that highly of me.

[dropzone]

Wintermute, I believe my brothers have said it well. I can only add that not only would the guy not think you were a slut, he would also need a friend to explain that you had asked him out, "You know, like a DATE." Even then he might be unclear on it, but he might propose to you, too. It's one of those risks you have to take in this crazy world.

[dropzone]

Originally posted by GuanoLad
It'd be so much easier if we could go up to people and say "Hey. Wanna fuck?"Some friends of mine met that way. It worked. They've been together for 25 years.

[Wintermute]

To be fair to you guys, it's probably women telling other women that asking a guy out means you're a slut. And, other women would think that about a girl who asked a guy out. Women are catty, just in case you missed it.

Now, having said all that, let me also say this: I am a pretty straight-forward type of person. I grew up during the sexual revolution, and always heard women can do anything.

I had to learn the hard way not to call guys or be too direct or show too much interest. I'm definitely not a "Rules" girl, I hate that book and the stupid games, but they work for a reason.

I don't mean to be insulting, but, in my experience, guys want to give chase and 'win' you.

I would be insulted if someone asked me, "You want to fuck?", but I agree with the principle. And it shouldn't matter which gender does the asking, but it does.

[jjimm]

Originally posted by Wintermute
I don't mean to be insulting, but, in my experience, guys want to give chase and 'win' you. Some guys.

Surely all the evidence in this thread indicates that other guys are too dumb/shy to do this. Hence we, the dumb ones, are letting you ladies know that we need it spelled out with alphabet blocks.

[Phatlewt]

why did the good stories stop? :)

[Coldfire]

I'll take my hints in 2 meter tall neon characters, please. I'm not sure I'm ready for the subtlety of alphabet blocks, you see.

[TwistofFate]

I don't mean to be insulting, but, in my experience, guys want to give chase and 'win' you.

dude, the bambi thread is in Great Debates.

[curly chick]

OK, I have a story; although in my defence, the man in question was so outrageously handsome and well put together that once I and every other female in the room with a pulse had spotted him as a fine bit of stuff, he slid off into the realms of:
"Get a grip, curly chick, you'd have no chance with the likes of that".
And also, he was Spanish and Mediterranean types are far more kissy and tactile than us repressed UK/Irelanders.

Aaaaaaaaaaanyway, not to embarrass myself too much, all I can say is that I spent about three weeks in the company of this man and one morning, while we were sitting on his balcony, watching the sunrise (sunrise on the Mediterranean sea - not to be sniffed at) and he told me that if that sun came up one more time without him having had the balls to tell me something, he might very well have to go and shoot himself.
(Melodramatic? Yup, I thought so)

Me - What's that, then J?
Him - I love you
Me - Har de har har, that's a good one! Where shall we go for brekkie, you daft sod?
Him - Pass me my gun - I might just have to shoot you, too.

He went absolutely mental and told me that he couldn't believe anyone as intelligent as me could possibly be so obtuse.
That's when the penny dropped.
I can still hear the echo of the clang.

The moral of the story is, chaps, threaten to shoot yourself and her, jump up and down, shouting at the object of your desire and tell her she is obtuse.
She'll be putty in your hands.

Actually, the real moral of the story is that like most people on here, I had dismissed any notion of his being interested in me as so preposterous to be clinically delusional, and it never entered my head to change that viewpoint.

[October]

"Hey. Wanna fuck?"

"No."

Women are basically insecure. See, if a woman asked the above question and was turned down, she would immediately start thinking, "Oh, no he rejected me! All guys want sex, right? What kind of guy rejects an offer like? I must be the ugliest woman alive, or maybe he noticed those 5 pounds I gained--I knew I shouldn't have had that piece of cake for dessert! He must think I'm a total slut! WHAT'S WRONG WITH ME???"

And on and on and on. Our capacity for self-criticism is limitless.

[cuauhtemoc]

I'm relatively sure I don't get flirted with often - I know the whole point of this thread is that, as a man, I wouldn't be aware of it if I did, but I think it's a safe assumption when women avoid eye contact with you that they're not flirting, right?

Well, actually there were a few women who behaved flirtatiously around me, but I think it's usually been due to the "safety" factor. I'm "safe" to act flirty around, because she knows I won't try anything.

And everyone knows what happens when you make a move when she doesn't want you to, right? Things get very, very uncomfortable, you apologize, she apologizes, you feel like the most undesirable human ever to walk the planet, she feels guilty for "leading you on". It's a scene best avoided altogether.

[Sinshine]

Originally posted by Wintermute
[B]Let's look at this. You like this guy. You do all the girly things; you flutter your eyelashes, laugh at his jokes, admire his muscles, etc., and he's not picking up on it.

Recent conversation between myself and nice man I've just met:

He: Are you going to laugh at all my jokes, or what?
Me: No, I only laugh if it's funny.

:smack: Be nice to nice man you just met.

:D Nice man gave me his number anyways.

[Morrigoon]

Actually, the eye contact depends on her level of shyness. I can barely speak to men I'm attracted to, but I'll talk everyone else's ear off!

Some women don't ask men out because we feel extremely unattractive. The last thing we want is that "oh god, get me away from this desperate ugly chick" look. So we send "subtle" signals. You see, if they're subtle, you can safely ignore them and avoid an uncomfortable scene because neither party actually acknowledged the interest. Or, if you choose, you can pick up on them and act accordingly.

Anyway, if we have to throw ourselves at you, you must not be very interested, so why should we waste our time? If you were interested you would have initiated the flirting, right?.......right?

Aw, crap!

~one very unattractive woman (I think) who refuses to ever ask a man out again (never had good luck with it -ever.)

[BadBaby]

I might have Miller beat. In first grade Scotty Ferguson sat next to me in the auditorium no matter how many times I changed my seat. He followed me around the playground trying to hold my hand and gave me his dessert every day. It wasn't until college that I finally figured out he liked me.

So I've been an idiot about such things for a long time. In our high school it was customary for the football players' girlfriends to wear their jerseys on game day. It was a very big deal to be asked to wear a guy's number and every girl was sensitive to even the slightest indication a guy might ask her the big question. My junior year one guy asked me if I was going to be wearing number 45, his number you see. I obliviously chattered that I was probably going to wear my new purple sweater. It took him actually putting the jersey on me the next day before the light went on in my head.

One guy sat next to me and had his leg over mine, blowing in my ear, before I caught on to him. I'm clueless unless you plain out say that you like me and we should go out. Otherwise you're just being polite, smiling, buying me a drink, complimenting my blouse, whatever. Nothing if not humble and unassuming, that's me.

[Jervoise]

I'm late for the thread, but I'm here to take my crown as the King of Cluelessness! :)

Summer two years ago I was helping out a friend. Her grandparents had recently moved into a retirement village, so she called on her mates to help clean up their old house. Lots of cleaning, gardening, shifting furniture. I knew the girl -- let's call her Beth -- through another friend. Basically, our only contact to date was in a group situation. Having said that, we'd shared a holiday house together, been out on countless pub trips, eaten out, gotten drunk together -- all that good friendship stuff. Beth's great. She's the kinda girl who will quietly fart in your presence, laugh madly and run away. We get on well. I'm the type of guy who can tell her (jokingly), "geez, your arse looks huge in those pants!", without causing offence. We were (and still are) great mates.

So after the cleaning and gardening are done, Beth's parents reckon we've done a great job. Since we've such an upstanding bunch of hardworking kids, they decide to reward with what every bunch of hardworking 20-something kids want: booze. To be precise, beer and wine. To be preciserer, two blocks of beer (in Australia, a "block" is 30 cans of beer) and three bottles of chardonnay. It's summer and we've been working and we're sweating and hot so everyone dives in. (Well, not literally; even 60 beers wouldn't make a divable pool of beer.)

Fast forward a few hours and we're well sloshed. A couple guys have stayed outside in the pool. Two girls are inside, studiously constructing a pyramid on the coffee table out of empty beer cans (I believe they called it our "beeramid"). Beth and I are lounging on her big queen-sized bed. Nothing unusual about that; earlier in the day all six of us were sitting on her bed, giggling, bouncing and drinking beer.

Beth and I are good mates. I mean, really good mates. No subject is taboo between us; we know each other far too well to have any hang-ups or secrets. In my mind, there's no sexual undercurrent between us. Since we started off as "just friends", that's the only thing we'll ever be: really good mates, but purely platonic.

You know the scene from Pulp Fiction when Uma Thurman tells John Travolta, "You know you've found someone special when you can shut up for a minute and comfortably share silence." Well that's us. Beth's Uma and I'm John. (OTOH, while she's certainly hot enough to play Uma, my chin doesn't resemble an ass cleft so I'm not a great likeness for John.) 'Course, since we've drunk more beer than the Australian cricket team, we're far from sharing comfortable silence. Matter of fact, we're babbling all kinds of rubbish to each other.

Beth is giggling madly because she reckons I've got an erection. (Well, she actually uses the word "boner" -- pronounced "booooner!") She's not serious; it's just the fabric crease in my shorts as I sit cross-legged on the bed that gives the illusion of readiness. (Plus, given all the beer I've consumed, a booooner! is a distant aspiration.)

Nonetheless, she begins poking the crease in my shorts with her forefinger. "Crease in my shorts" being my penis and "her forefinger" being her manicured, painted, pointy finger.

"Ouch, quittit!", I say, and I squirm away from her on the bed. "You're hurting him!"

Beth's not to be deterred however, and cackling madly she pursues me across the bed. She's like a mother hen, pecking away at the dirt for tasty worms. Except my tasty worm (how's that for an unflattering comparison?) is sensitive and not at all interested in being pecked, so I'm squirming and rolling away from her.

After a few minutes, I gather my girlie screams for mercy are having no effect, so I roll over in a defensive ball (some would call it a cowardly, snivelling huddle). Beth's still laughing her arse off and she drapes herself over my huddled form.

I eventually relax and lie on the bed normally. Beth's still lying over me. She's also still touching me in the shorts, but this time more gently. I'm not minding so much, in fact I'm laughing my head off because she's trying to give me an erection. With the studious concentration of our friends constructing the beeramid outside the room, she's working on arousing me.

"It's not working!", she says.

"That's because you're still poking me!", I say.

--

Let the record show that it didn't cross my mind ONCE that there was a sexual element to our game. Fercrissake, a girl had her hand down my pants, touching my penis and I still had NO idea it wasn't just for laughs. I just thought she was playing a stupid game. At best, I figured she was probably curious about my anatomy; at worst, I thought she just enjoyed watching me squirm. After all, we were just great mates, right?

:smack:

Ah, it wouldn't have worked anyway.


Narrad

[cuauhtemoc]

Originally posted by Narrad
I'm late for the thread
Yeah, I didn't open it until late yesterday, because I'd thought it was something about Iraq.

I was deeply in love with someone for about three years during college. Picture a brunette Drew Barrymore with a tiny overbite. Of course I never said anything about it, we were just friends, and very few people knew how I felt.

We spent the weekend at the house of another friend one time and there was only the pullout couch to sleep on. We lie in bed and talked for a while, and eventually fell asleep, hand in hand. That's right, we were in bed together, holding hands. I was happy that she trusted me enough to hold my hand as she fell asleep, but my heart also ached at being so close, yet so far away. Whatever holding my hand in bed meant, it certainly wasn't a "clue". I know this because later I wrote her a long letter telling her how I felt, and we never spoke again. That's probably why I mostly keep my deepest feelings to myself these days.

[lezlers]

Wintermute,

This is a completely genuine question, not snarky at all, how old are you? I ask because I'm 25 and I've never heard of a girl who asked a guy out being thought of as a slut. They're more thought of as "ballsy"

I also agree with Morigoon on the shyness thing. I can be pretty shy if I'm attracted to someone and no matter how much I tell myself keep eye contact...keep...EYE...CONTACT!!, I'll invariably look away, causing him to think I'm not interested. *sigh*

I can't get behind the knocking a guy over the head with obviousness either, for fear of rejection. I'm WAY subtle with my flirting, as friends have told me, because like Morrigoon said, it's easier to pretend there was no flirting going on anyway if it's not returned.

Turn it around guys, would you be so obvious as to basically bash a girl over the head with your desire for her if you weren't sure she felt the same way??

Didn't think so.

;)

[wedgerat]

Thank-you, everyone who posted about how clueless boys can be when it comes to picking up hints.

Long story ending in me finding out if a dense boy likes me:
I'm going away to college in about 2 weeks. All summer, I've been talking to other kids going to the same school via IRC. There's this one boy I took a fancy to. I was dropping hints and he was being *bleep* dense about it. Then a week ago, I thought one of the other kids had clued him in because he was dropping hints back, but then those hints dried up.

Then yesterday, he was lamenting about how he couldn't tell if someone was flirting with him to save his life. I told him that I'd heard this was a common problem, and Private Messaged him a link to this thread.

A while later, he comes back on PM and announces that he's putting away his meatcleaver and chopping block. I tell him I liked cowgirl's post. A longer while later, he says he'll just have to make a sign saying "I'm really clueless and I need to get hit over the head with a shovel before I realize someone fancies me." I ask him if he actually thinks someone'll fall for that. He doesn't reply.

Later, in the public chat, I hit him over the head with a shovel. He squeaks "You like me?" and we start talking again in PM. I ask him is the feeling is mutual? Long pause. "The feeling is mutual."

Now, I know, people are different IRL and over the internet. We're not "dating" or anything. We'll just see how it works out. He really seems to be a good kid, just the right amount of geekiness to him.

[glee]

When I was a clueless teenager, a charming, smart girl came out on a few dates with me.
I had no idea how interested she was (because I'm a typical male).

Then she asked if we could meet one Saturday. No, sorry, I'm doing a chess simultaneous display for charity. It lasts 3-4 hours.
"Oh, " she replies. "I'll come and watch you."

And she turned up (with a book) and stayed for the full 4 hours.
But I still couldn't decide if she was serious about me....

[CanvasShoes]

Originally posted by Miller
[B]I didn't date much in highschool. Okay, that's on overstatement. I didn't date at all in highschool. Not once. This has always sort of bothered me, and I've chalked it up to a lot of reasons: I was overweight, I was a geek, whatever. The truth of the matter is, I didn't date much because I am the single stupidest person on Earth.
..................... and I decide I'd rather be home playing fucking computer games! AARRGH! I'm so disgusted with myself I'm literally sick to my stomach. I'm a goddamned walking coma patient! This is more concentrated stupidity than can be found anywhere on Earth outside of Congress. There are single-celled amoeba who are better than me at relating to the opposite sex.

If it helps any, you just described my boyfriend. He only dated 2 women (well girls really back in highschool) before we started dating when I was 37 and he was 26. We've been together for about 5 of the last 7 and a half years and he's dated lots of other women during our "off" times.

His mother told me how clueless he was when girls would show interest in him. Don't worry, you can catch up. And as has been my experience with so-called "geeks" they're MUCH hotter in bed than so-called "hotties".

I wouldn't worry if I were you. I know it sounds cliche', but someone will come along when the time is right.

[neuroman]

Miller, thanks for a great thread, and thanks for DarkMika for reviving it so I could find it!.This is the reason they invented the :smack: smilie. Waverly, I don't know if you win the most clueless award, but I thought your post was the most heartbreaking. :(

Well, what can I contribute? There was a cheerleader in my high school biology class who talked to me a lot. And during demonstrations, she would stand next to me and put her hand up on my shoulder. So she could see better. Yeah. I bet that helped her vision a whole lot. Of course, at that stage in my life she probably could have looked me straight in the eye, said "I think you're really cool and want to go on a date with you", and I would have given the best deer in the headlights impression I could manage.

Now, thinking back to the party I was at last night, I am going to have to find someone who knows the phone number of the cute brunette who laughed at my jokes, touched me, and made lots of eye contact. :cool:

[CanvasShoes]

Originally posted by Miller
This is so, so, so not true. Believe me, most guys love the idea of the woman making the first move. I can't iamgine why this myth has lasted as long as it has. It's got to be the sort of thing women tell each other, because I know it's not coming from men. If any guys think I'm wrong on this, please speak up so I can kick your ass for making it harder for the rest of us.
There are a LOT of guys who've humiliated those of us brave enough to try asking a guy out (hard enough in the first place thanks to the old double standard), once that's happened, we aren't likely to risk getting burned again.

I'm afraid Wintermute is at least partly right. There are enough guys who've "punished" girls for being "too forward" that a lot of us, well especially those from my generation (I'm 40something), just don't like to be the ones to ask. Hence the "hints" and "signals".

[CanvasShoes]

Originally posted by October
Female checking in here. It's good for a woman's self-esteem to know that you occasionally sit up in bed and smack yourselves in the forehead. Usually we think you're not interested and get our feelings hurt, and then we feel stupid for being so OBVIOUS about liking you, and then getting shot down. And then we hate you for being such dicks.

NOTE TO ALL MEN: If a woman makes eye contact with you, flirts with you, touches you (this is HUGE--there's usually this unspoken "touch barrier" that women generally don't break unless they're interested), or maneuvers to get you alone, SHE'S INTERESTED IN YOU.


yup, Yup YUP!!!!


And laughs at your jokes, and hangs around you, asks your advice about mundane stuff that you KNOW she must also know about.................

[ProjectOmega]

NOTE TO ALL MEN: If a woman makes eye contact with you, flirts with you, touches you (this is HUGE--there's usually this unspoken "touch barrier" that women generally don't break unless they're interested), or maneuvers to get you alone, SHE'S INTERESTED IN YOU.

Heh. I could have used that in bright, red letters, tattooed across my chest in highschool. My turn!

Hottest girl in school (no, literally), who also happens to be the smartest, funniest, blah blah blah, so on. We've been really good friends since grade 8, talking in person, over ICQ/MSN or the occasional (read: I think maybe 3-4 times) phone call virtually every day. Of course, I've had a huge crush on her since day 1, but hell, I was too shy to do anything about it.

On to specific examples:

Grade 10ish, art class. This was always sort of "our class", since we were in the same class with the same teacher from 8 through 12, so it was a very friendly, relaxed and fun. We're working with clay, and during the latter part of the class, we're mucking around with it and she playfully slaps me on the cheek (hand covered in clay of course; very amusing). What do I do? I smile dumbly and don't think anything of it. Durrr.

That same year, later on, the class is basically over, so everyone is just kind of milling around, waiting for the bell to ring. I'm near the door, with my back against the wall. She moves beside me and leans against me ever so slightly. I take a shuffle-step away from her, thinking it would be the gentlemanly thing to do. DURRRRRR.

Another thing I share with this girl is a fascination with dreams. We always share our dreams with each other, and try to break them down and interpret them. I have this dream with her in it, and she's whispering something in my ear, a question of some sort, and I can't quite make it out, so I keep saying "What? What? What?" and so on. This girl happens to be Greek, so when I'm talking with her, trying to piece together what she might have been saying, I ask her the Greek words for common question starters, like "How", "What", "Who", etc. No luck. Then she throws out a brilliant insight: "Maybe, in the dream, I wasn't saying anything in particular, but it's like I'm telling you something in general and you're not picking it up". I couldn't for the life of me figure out what THAT might be. DURRRRRRRRRRRRR.

I *did* sorta-kinda end up asking this girl out a year+ later. Not in the "wanna see a movie?" kind of way, but in the "if I asked you out, sometime in the future, what would you say?". She said, "Sure, why not". This was late, late at night, on ICQ, and I was running a fever and fighting a flu, which is the only reason I was insane/clear-minded enough to ask that in the first place. Of course, I never DID ask her out. Nope. For some reason, even though she basically said, "If you ask me out, I'll say yes", I never had the confidence to do it (and in my defense, the circumstances surrounding the situation never really gave me a HUGE opportunity to, and if I were to ask her out, I'd want to do it RIGHT). Still, :smack: :smack: :smack:

She's now had a boyfriend for over a year, someone she started seeing about eight months after the situation in the above paragraph took place. We're still really good friends, and in fact I'm going to go catch a movie with her this Monday. And yes, I still have a crush on her. Shoot me, please. :rolleyes:

[Avalonian]

Originally posted by CanvasShoes
There are a LOT of guys who've humiliated those of us brave enough to try asking a guy out (hard enough in the first place thanks to the old double standard), once that's happened, we aren't likely to risk getting burned again.

Gosh, you mean that some women have actually experienced what guys feel when they get shot down and/or humiliated? What a tragedy! ;)

I kid... sort of.

It all makes me glad I'm off the market, really. I'd still be as clueless and insecure as ever, I'm sure.

[MonkeyMule]

I think I take the cake

2 weeks ago, I'm at a strip club, having a great convo with a striper. Please note, this wasn't I want your money so I'll talk with you kind of deal (I got her number, but was to drunk to remember it). Anyway, as club closes, her friend (also a striper and also drunk) starts flirting with me. Me being the grand great genius I am, after both of them told me "yeah we live in brooklyn too and take a cab home after work" I say "Ok, I'll see you around"

Yes, I passed on a cab ride with two drunk horny stripers.
:smack::mad: :smack: :mad: :smack:

[Miller]

Originally posted by CanvasShoes
There are a LOT of guys who've humiliated those of us brave enough to try asking a guy out (hard enough in the first place thanks to the old double standard), once that's happened, we aren't likely to risk getting burned again.

I'm afraid Wintermute is at least partly right. There are enough guys who've "punished" girls for being "too forward" that a lot of us, well especially those from my generation (I'm 40something), just don't like to be the ones to ask. Hence the "hints" and "signals".

Ha! Welcome to our world!

Seriously: that's why guys like forward girls. It's every bit as intimidating for a guy to get up the courage to ask, and every bit as humiliating for a guy to be refused. We don't like to be the ones to ask either, but we don't get to kid ourselves that "women don't like forward guys."

[cuauhtemoc]

Originally posted by CanvasShoes
There are a LOT of guys who've humiliated those of us brave enough to try asking a guy out (hard enough in the first place thanks to the old double standard), once that's happened, we aren't likely to risk getting burned again.

I'm afraid Wintermute is at least partly right. There are enough guys who've "punished" girls for being "too forward" that a lot of us, well especially those from my generation (I'm 40something), just don't like to be the ones to ask. Hence the "hints" and "signals".
I see a couple of posters have beaten me to it, but I'd just like to say, now you know what it's been like for men since the dawn of civilization. ;)

[chula]

Originally posted by October
NOTE TO ALL MEN: If a woman makes eye contact with you, flirts with you, touches you (this is HUGE--there's usually this unspoken "touch barrier" that women generally don't break unless they're interested), or maneuvers to get you alone, SHE'S INTERESTED IN YOU. No!!! Guys are always thinking I'm flirting with them I guess because I laugh and smile a lot and am not afraid of physical contact. I feel guilty about it when a normally shy guy gets the idea I'm interested and works up the nerve to ask me out. At the risk of bursting peoples' bubbles and sounding conceited in the process, it is quite possible that that hot chick you remember was not interested in you. Hot chicks often have more self-confidence than other women, and that self-confidence manifests itself as flirtatiousness.

Here's the flip side to your stories: Senior year of high school, a friend and I decided that this nerdy guy had the potential to be kind of cute, if he stopped being a nerd. It seemed like it would be fun to give him a thrill, and we were curious if that would bring him out of his shell and turn the frog into a prince. So we picked him to be in our group for a project and invited ourselves over to his house where we blatantly flirted with him. After the project was done, he called me up and asked me out. It hadn't really occured to me that we were toying with a real person's feelings until then. I'm not even sure what I said - I think I did something horrible like say yes but then not call him back. I hope I didn't traumatize him; after all, that was his first interaction with a woman. If you're out there, Kevin - sorry! Moral of the story: he'd be happier posting here about being too stupid to ask me out. Instead, he got his first rejection and probably didn't trust his instincts about women after that.

[Smeghead]

What a horrible thing to do to another person.

[Rashak Mani]

Originally posted by chula
No!!! Guys are always thinking I'm flirting with them I guess because I laugh and smile a lot and am not afraid of physical contact. I feel guilty about it when a normally shy guy gets the idea I'm interested and works up the nerve to ask me out...

Oh Christ ! I am going thru exactly the same situation... but I am the shy guy that is seeing Signs all over the place. If she actually came to me and said "no not interested" it would actually be a relief... :( Still she is very physical... very talkative of things like dating and kissing... even sex. No wonder I feel she is interested.

We are very good friends and it might spoil the friendship if I try to steal a kiss from her unwarranted (in her opinion unwarranted). Still... I would rather try it, and get rejected, than to hear years later her telling me she was in fact hot for me.

Chula... I suggest you do what a friend of mine told me... that if a girl wants to "say" she is not interested sexually speaking... she asks the guy his opinion on other men she wants to date. It puts off the guy pretty fast.

[cuauhtemoc]

Originally posted by chula
Moral of the story: he'd be happier posting here about being too stupid to ask me out. Instead, he got his first rejection and probably didn't trust his instincts about women after that.
Yeah. Either that or he figured out what an immature bitch you were and moved on to someone more worthy of his affections.

[Miller]

Originally posted by cuauhtemoc
Yeah. Either that or he figured out what an immature bitch you were and moved on to someone more worthy of his affections.

C'mon, now. We all did stuff when we were teenagers that we regret as adults. It's part of growing up. God forbid someone should dig up all the stupid/insensitive stuff you did when you were a hormonally crazed teenager and hold you accountable for it today.

That said, chula, that's the sort of anecdote that maybe you shouldn't share. Especially with the crowd in this thread.

[cuauhtemoc]

Maybe you're right, Miller, but I did say "were" not "are". It seems like chula knows it wasn't a nice thing to do, which is to her credit.

Still, when she said she was at risk of sounding conceited, she wasn't kidding! "Hot chicks often have more self-confidence than other women, and that self-confidence manifests itself as flirtatiousness"? So basically, all the other women who have posted to this thread are "other women", while chula obviously counts herself among the "hot chick" demographic. It seems as if the gist of her post was "Don't any of you 'normal' people get any ideas about asking out a hottie like me! Otherwise I'll have to shoot you down, and that will make me feel guilty. :( "

chula, if I'm reading too much into your words, I sincerely apologize. You could be the sweetest person in the world, I just thought you came off a little snotty in your post, that's all.

[Tuckerfan]

Originally posted by cuauhtemoc
while chula obviously counts herself among the "hot chick" demographic. Well, chula's not posted a link to her pic in this thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=203149), so we've no way of judging if she's a hottie or not.

[Rashak Mani]

Lighten up guys.... like you said yourself... who hasnt done something stupid before. I am happy Chula shared her story. Bad and Good. Women know very well how manipulated men can be.

[CanvasShoes]

Originally posted by Avalonian
[B]Gosh, you mean that some women have actually experienced what guys feel when they get shot down and/or humiliated? What a tragedy! ;)

I kid... sort of.


<------Smiling.

I forgive ya. Remember though, I'm an Old lady, so I DO come from "the dark ages of dating" where we "had" to sit at home waiting for the phone to ring.

Anyway, my post and WinterMute's (if I can speak for her) weren't said in a "oh, feel sorry for me I've been turned down" way, but in a "here's at least one reason WHY women 'merely' hint, give subtle signals etc" way.

Hope that makes sense.

[CanvasShoes]

Originally posted by Miller
Ha! Welcome to our world!

Seriously: that's why guys like forward girls. It's every bit as intimidating for a guy to get up the courage to ask, and every bit as humiliating for a guy to be refused. We don't like to be the ones to ask either, but we don't get to kid ourselves that "women don't like forward guys."

:)

Yes, I understand that part. And again, my post wasn't a bid for sympathy, but an explanation for the question "why are women so subtle, why don't they ask guys out"? Especially for those from my generation, 1.) We were taught that it wasn't "ladylike". 2.) that men would be turned off and think us "easy".

Seems, based on posts of younger women, that that's not so much true anymore. And believe me, my OWN boyfriend gave me hell lots of times during our first year or so together for not being MORE forward.

If the shoe was on the other foot, women, (generally, usual disclaimer applies of course) WOULD get hints, subtle signals etc for the most part.

Hey!! There's an idea for ya!!! Start sending subtle hints and signals to girls that you'd like to ask you out.

[lezlers]

Chula,

I don't think it was a very good idea to post that little ancedote on this thread. Yes, there are a lot of immature girls out there who like to give out mixed signals (I like to say they've matured since high school, but I'd be lying probably) but telling a bunch of guys that the girl who was blantently flirting with them probably wasn't interested is just not a very nice thing to do, not to mention making it harder on us girls who rely on flirting to signal interest.

[Avalonian]

Originally posted by CanvasShoes
Hey!! There's an idea for ya!!! Start sending subtle hints and signals to girls that you'd like to ask you out.

What, you mean the ball-scratchin' and spittin' aren't clear enough? ;)

That would be my funny way of saying that, maybe guys are trying to send subtle hints, but they're not making the translation? In other words, don't expect guys to giggle and toss their hair to get your attention. *chortle*

Not that I know what I'm talking about, really. I was always as bad at sending hints as I was at receiving them. Nobody ever seemed to get my hints, which was probably my fault.

By the way, I wasn't trying to make you feel bad for saying what you were saying about women being forward... just pointing out that humiliation has basically the same effect for either gender; it tends to discourage one from trying again. The feelings you were describing after being "shot down" have also been felt by every guy I know, including me. Maybe you can understand a little better why we're not juimping at every little flirtatious touch or laugh.

And then there's girls like chula... I'm not trying to pick on her, but she's the girl I have in my head when I think someone might be flirting with me. I'm thinking "She might be flirting with me because she's really interested, but she could also just be the flirty type, and she's like that with everyone. Or, she might just be fucking with me (and not in the good way)." There you have the other reason why guys like me don't always seem to catch on to flirting right away... we might be noticing flirty behavior, but past experience or plain old self-doubt is casting doubts on whether it's real flirty behavior.

That said, seriously, nothing meant at all against you, chula. I've known girls who were naturally flirty with most of their friends before, and they were always fun to be around. A little confusing sometimes, but always fun. ;)

Moral of my little story (which was much longer than I had intended): girls, if the guy you've got your eye on doesn't seem to be catching or isn't responding to your subtle hints, then its time to kick it up a notch. Try being not quite so subtle, or maybe not so subtle at all. There may be a host of reasons (in his head, anyway) why he's not responding to you, but it doesn't mean he's not interested.

[Rashak Mani]

Originally posted by Avalonian

That said, seriously, nothing meant at all against you, chula. I've known girls who were naturally flirty with most of their friends before, and they were always fun to be around. A little confusing sometimes, but always fun. ;)

Moral of my little story (which was much longer than I had intended): girls, if the guy you've got your eye on doesn't seem to be catching or isn't responding to your subtle hints, then its time to kick it up a notch. Try being not quite so subtle, or maybe not so subtle at all. There may be a host of reasons (in his head, anyway) why he's not responding to you, but it doesn't mean he's not interested.

You took the words out of my keyboard ! Both regarding the flirty girls and the hints.

Girls like Chula are great fun to be around.... but utterly confusing sometimes... we always think that just maybe today is the day she is really interested and not only friendly ! Men cant keep sex out of the equation ever....

As for the hints... some women are so cautious about it. As a gentleman I hate the notion of hitting on a woman who hasnt shown a modicum of interest. No Green lights means dont hit me as far as I am concerned. I might chat a bit... throw some charm... but rarely go ahead without some kind of stronger hint. (Yes I am bad at recongnizing them too).

[CanvasShoes]

Originally posted by Avalonian
[B]What, you mean the ball-scratchin' and spittin' aren't clear enough? ;)

That would be my funny way of saying that, maybe guys are trying to send subtle hints, but they're not making the translation? In other words, don't expect guys to giggle and toss their hair to get your attention. *chortle*

Not that I know what I'm talking about, really. I was always as bad at sending hints as I was at receiving them. Nobody ever seemed to get my hints, which was probably my fault.

By the way, I wasn't trying to make you feel bad for saying what you were saying about women being forward... just pointing out that humiliation has basically the same effect for either gender; it tends to discourage one from trying again. The feelings you were describing after being "shot down" have also been felt by every guy I know, including me. Maybe you can understand a little better why we're not juimping at every little flirtatious touch or laugh.

lol, That's okay, I didn't take it as such. Just wanted to make sure my explanation was understood, it might help someone. Good points that men may be sending their "own" signals that, because they're "male" we girls might not get.

(if a guy giggled and tossed his hair, I'd likely ask him to help me go shopping, or be my dance partner, but NOT my boyfriend!!! hehe).

And then there's girls like chula... I'm not trying to pick on her, but she's the girl I have in my head when I think someone might be flirting with me. I'm thinking "She might be flirting with me because she's really interested, but she could also just be the flirty type, and she's like that with everyone. Or, she might just be fucking with me (and not in the good way)." There you have the other reason why guys like me don't always seem to catch on to flirting right away... we might be noticing flirty behavior, but past experience or plain old self-doubt is casting doubts on whether it's real flirty behavior.

That's a good point, and though some think chula shouldn't have brought it up, (at least perhaps not the way she did), imo, it's pretty common for young women who aren't quite sure of their OWN ability to attract and or figure out men etc, to act in such a way, not so much to "mess" with the man (though that's an unfortunate side effect) but to "test out" their feminine powers so to speak.

Not a very nice thing to have happen I can imagine, if you are the man some girl has decided is "safe" but not boyfriend material.

[Rashak Mani]

Well in the end it would be nice if having casual sex and communication between men and women were way easier. When a woman can approach a male friend and request a good fuck with no strings attached....

hhmm... I know... keep on dreaming. Men are from Mars and Women from Venus.

[MonkeyMule]

Originally posted by Rashak Mani
Men are from Mars and Women from Venus.

Men and women are not merely on two different planets. They are on two different planets, in different solar systems, in different galaxies, that exist in different planes of reality.

Oh it's true, it true

[Keek]

dwc1971: You were 24 and you hadn't had sex in four years? FOUR FRIGGING YEARS? Jeez, that's harsh.

My mate in Cincinatti hasn't been laid in six years now, incidentally. But he's ginger, so it's understandable.

[chula]

Sorry, Miller, if you feel I messed up your thread. I liked your stories. I just felt the need to counter the consensus that flirting = interested.

cuauhtemoc, yeah, I wasn’t as mature when I was 17 as I am now. At the time I thought I was helping him out. See, the main thing that separates the nerds from the studs is self-confidence, and I thought the flirting might help bring him out of his shell and realize his potential appeal to women. I’ve had a lot more experience with such things since then, and now I think I’m pretty sensitive to feelings of guys I turn down.

I don’t see any reason to pretend that looks don’t matter to people, and just about everybody mentioned how good-looking the girl in their stories were. Good-looking people simply do have an easier time when it comes to dating, and that success tends to breed self-confidence. At the same time, self-confidence makes people attractive. As for my conceit, I couldn’t possibly feel I’m better looking than people on this thread, since I don’t know what anyone looks like. It’s a little strange to have to explain to someone what I look like, since in real life people can judge for themselves. I don’t know if I’m good-looking and don’t really care; I believe our society places far too much emphasis on looks. I do put myself in the hot chick demographic (and any of you are welcome to join me!) based on the excessive amount of attention I get from guys and the frequent suggestions that I go into modeling. It would be silly and dishonest to pretend I’m considered average looking. I don’t fear being rejected by guys, so I don’t worry about them getting the idea I might be interested, so I’m flirty. Notice that I didn’t say that the guys I feel bad about leading on are not good-looking, I said they’re shy (i.e., lack self-confidence). Looks don’t have a whole lot to do with what makes a guy attractive, in my book. I am totally flattered when any guy asks me out; I just worry that some guys’ egos are too fragile to handle the rejection.

Thanks to everyone who let me off the hook so easily. I think I’d like to change the moral of the story: Ask the girl out, but don’t feel bad if she's not interested. She was probably an immature bitch anyway. ;)

[lezlers]

If you were trying to come off as not being conceded chula, I'm afraid you failed miserably.

;)

[Rashak Mani]

Chula, besides ego inflating, practice and showing interest... why do women flirt ? :)

Wow... Chula you certainly are something. You are pretty confident and a bit cautious at the same time. Even then you don't seem to judge men for being too shy either. Some fragility present... but not evident. I would warrant that even if you were average looking men would be attracted to your more relaxed or open style.

Anyway I would like to start a motion asking for a photo of you Chula. Not that I need an image to "evaluate" you.... but I certainly am very curious to give a face to the personality we know as Chula here.

Yours Sincerely,

Rashak Mani


PS.: Chula in Portuguese means vulgar or of bad quality. Thou its not much used in reference to people thou. Seems to be different in Spanish from what you typed....

[Rashak Mani]

oh... I forgot to remark.

Chula, some of these guys are really giving you a hard time arent they ? :)

[cuauhtemoc]

Originally posted by chula
I think I’d like to change the moral of the story: Ask the girl out, but don’t feel bad if she's not interested.
I think that's a good moral. You said "Kevin" would have been happier posting here about never having the courage to ask you out, but that's not necessarily true.

I wrote a long, heartfelt letter to the woman from the story in my post telling her how I'd felt about her all those years. We never spoke again after that. I guess she didn't know how to deal with it. Am I sorry I wrote the letter? Hell no! Dropping that letter in the mailbox was the final step in my becoming a man. It was an act of affirmation. It said "My feelings matter, goddamn it! They're nothing to be ashamed of, and I'm not going to hide them anymore!"

It also allowed me to see that this particular woman wasn't what I'd imagined her to be. She didn't have the guts to look me in the eye after I made my feelings known to her. I was disappointed in her, because I thought she was a more courageous person than that, but I'm certainly better off knowing the truth.

Come to think of it, my story wasn't really about "clues" and "flirting" and a "hot chick", it was more about an affair of the heart. But I think the moral still applies. If you're a grown-up, and you feel a certain way about someone, shout it from the rooftops and damn the consequences! You won't be sorry.

[chula]

Damn, I've instigated a hijack of a perfectly good thread. Thanks for the psychological analysis, Rashak Mani, as well as for the compliment. I would rather retain my anonymity, but I’ll email you a photo if you’re really interested.

I wish I had known what the name meant in Portuguese. My Portuguese is both rusty and limited. Obviously I had the Spanish meaning in mind.

lezlers, I conceded I might sound conceited. ;)

[Rashak Mani]

Your Welcome Chula,

Well your name is not that bad ... thou quite innapropiate in my language... :) I won't mix up the meaning with the person thou. Your anything but ordinary.

As for the Hijacking... its almost impossible not to happen and it wasnt your doing !

[Malacandra]

OK guys, thanks for making my day. I've now been sat here racking my brains thinking back through my formative years trying to decide if I had a "How could I have been so stupid" story to add, and I've reached the following conclusion:

I wasn't clueless.

It really was the case that nobody fancied me. :(

Especially not the hotties. :( :(

Taking this along with the evidence that suggests that now that Mrs M is pregnant with the last child she intends to bear, I'm not going to be needing Spanky any more, I'll have that meat cleaver and chopping board if no-one's using it. :( :( :(

[Rashak Mani]

I think that is unfair... spanky didnt get any action because you didnt get around to do it !

[Malacandra]

Actually Spanky got plenty of action in my youth, it's just that most of it didn't involve chicks, and certainly not hot ones throwing themselves at me. Don't blame me, it takes two to tango (as if I should have to explain that to a South American). :dubious:

[Wintermute]

Well, I guess we know who doesn't do vanity searches, don't we? I'm sorry I didn't get back here sooner. The thread is slightly hijacked, but I wanted to respond to a couple things.

Lezlers, I'm about 12 years older than you, so, yes, things have changed a little. But I don't think things have changed so very much that "ballsy" is a compliment for a woman. And I thought the same thing about the age difference, but I asked my sister, who is your age, and she agreed with me (no, I didn't load the question).

(btw, I grew up in Mendocino Co. Yay, CA!)

CanvasShoes, thank you. You covered things nicely.

Everyone else, I am a little uncomfortable here, because I don't really want to be in a position of trying to defend behavior I don't like or agree with. I really do think there should be a simple and clear marker or display that would be unambiguous. Like birds, or something. Everyone knows when a peacock is courting a peahen.

May I point out that my initial post was how clueless I usually am, when it comes to guys?

And I do feel for you guys. It's not fair the onus is on you to ask. I also know that, as Chula so blithely demonstrated, there are plenty of girls who are cruel for whatever reasons. I do realize that, most times, if I guy is sitting around chatting you up, he's either interested in you sexually, or he's interested in your girlfriend (that's usually the case, with me. I hate that.*) Guys don't talk to women at a party or bar just to pass the time.

But, in my experience, the few times I have indicated serious interest in a guy, well, the nicest one was amusedly tolerant, as long as I worshipped from afar. Most just shut me down pretty quickly. You just never hear from them again. Granted, I was younger, but not by that much.

Now, maybe I was overshooting the mark, in terms of the guys I could get. But to tell you the truth; I don't get sexually attracted to many people. Sexual availabilty is not one of the things I consider when I meet you. Oh, it's probably there, buried in my sub-conscious, and certainly there are hormonal peaks that will make me sit up and take notice when a man walks in the room (especially if he's tall. If you are over 6', I definitely notice you on a visceral level.). But consciously, "Ooh, a man! Wonder if he's single?" has never crossed my mind. I look at you as a human first, man or woman second. Which, I think, is the reason I am equally attracted to men and women.

So, if you flirt with me, and I don't notice, it has nothing to do with you. I honestly don't notice, and, if I did, I wouldn't take you seriously. I like to flirt, too, so I figure it's all in fun, because you couldn't honestly be attracted to me.

One more thing. I am not a touchy person, so if I am touching you, that's flirting for real. But everyone's different.






Small, and not very flattering self-hijack: If you come over, chat me up and ask for my girlfriend's number, I will lie. I will be as mean as I can be. I'll get up and just walk off without another word. If I give you a number, it's for the dog pound or something. Nothing pisses me off more.

[Miller]

Originally posted by Wintermute
And I do feel for you guys. It's not fair the onus is on you to ask.

That's how I feel. In order to address the injustice, I refuse to ever again ask a woman out on a date. Ladies, if you want some of this, you're going to have to ask for it.















































































chirp chirp... chirp chirp...

[lezlers]

Personally, I don't see how guys do it. If I knew I was the one responsible for having to ask a guy out every time, well hell, I'd never date. I'm a wuss like that.

I never considered being "ballsy" a bad thing. Just means you've got courage. When it comes to the opposite sex though, ballsy I am not. I asked a guy to coffee once (via email of course, like I'm gonna do it in person and have to run off with my tail between my legs) and thought I'd die in the time it took to get a response. Of course when he said yes I felt like Mac Mama of the Century.

And Miller you obviously can't take hints. ;)

[Rashak Mani]

How repressed do you girls/women feel in relation to being free about your sexuality ?

There is always the impression that women hold back a lot... be it in the flirting... in asking out... in having sexual fantasies... and even within a relationship. We men tend to think women are less horny... but I feel that its not that much... that women repress themselves maybe.

Or maybe sex is just the sideshow for girls ? Part of the package and not so important.

[Miller]

Originally posted by lezlers
And Miller you obviously can't take hints.

I sense you're trying to tell me something....

[chula]

Miller, don't you live in Marin? That's not far from lezlers... ;)

[lezlers]

Just giving you a little something else to wake up feeling stupid about in about 10 years or so..

[Miller]

I'm not sure I take your meaning.





;)






How you doin'?

[lezlers]

I'm aight.

shuffles feet, akward pause, all that shit

[Miller]

Cool.

l
o
n
g

a
w
k
w
a
r
d

p
a
u
s
e

So... s'up?

[lezlers]

So you see illustrious posters of the SDMB, sometimes knocking members of the opposite sex over the head with a 2x4 isn't always in your best interest. It often leads to much feet shuffling, upward glancing, uncomforatable pauses and general desire to scurry away. If you're the crafty type, you can try to diffuse the situation through humor and if you gots mad skillz you can possibly make it seem as if the whole thing were nothing but a covert social experiement to demonstrate some minor point that arose in conversation previously.

*Ahem*

So yeah. Pay attention when people flirt guys.

Lesson over.

[chula]

You were just fucking with Miller to make a point - that's cruel! ;) I was hoping you two would hook up.

[lezlers]

pssst...chula, it's called "diffusing an akward situation" ;)

[Ephemera]

Personally, I don't see how guys do it. If I knew I was the one responsible for having to ask a guy out every time, well hell, I'd never date. I'm a wuss like that.

Some of us don't date 'cause we can't handle the pressure of being the one that has to make the first move.

[chula]

Originally posted by lezlers
pssst...chula, it's called "diffusing an akward situation"Awkward situation?? I thought that was going well! No wonder you people are having problems hooking up! ;)

[Rashak Mani]

This is more like creating an akward situation instead of diffusing...

[Malacandra]

"Defusing", even, as in rendering a bomb harmless.

Btw, pedantry like this might be why I had so many problems hooking up :rolleyes: @ self.

[pulykamell]

I was thinking about one of these moments the other day.

I was working with a cute girl called Kate at the cafe and I invited her out to drinks after work. This was nothing really unusual. Our cafe was a pretty homey community, and staff often hung out with each other after hours. We've always teased and flirted on-shift, but it was just that: teasing and flirting. Anyhow, for some reason we stop off at her flat and I drop off some bags I had on me. I didn't see it to be a necessary stop but, hey, it's right around the corner from the bar. She also mentions something about her roommates being gone for the weekend. I say something stupid and obvious like, Oh, it's always nice to have the place to yourself for a bit.

We go to the bar, have several drinks, and then she smiles, turns to me and says: "You know, alcohol makes me really horny." I agree and just shrug if off as a slightly tipsy comment.
I go back to her place, pick up my stuff and walk home.

And the walk home it hits me..."Wait a sec... did she just? did I just? ... How the fuck did I get those signals crossed?!?! D'OH!!!! :smack: "

Unfortunately, I never got another opprotunity like that. She soon found a boyfriend and married him a couple years later. Oh well.

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by Rashak Mani
How repressed do you girls/women feel in relation to being free about your sexuality ?

There is always the impression that women hold back a lot... be it in the flirting... in asking out... in having sexual fantasies... and even within a relationship. We men tend to think women are less horny... but I feel that its not that much... that women repress themselves maybe.

Or maybe sex is just the sideshow for girls ? Part of the package and not so important.

Rashak, that is a very good question, but one I don't really feel prepared to answer. But here's my crack at it.

First, libido is subjective. What's normal for me might not be for the next girl. I might think that once a week is hot and heavy and you may want it three times a day. Your last girlfriend was up for it once a day. In that case, I would feel that my sex drive is perfectly fine, and that you are an animal, whereas you might think I’m frigid and sexually repressed. I know I don’t think about having sex as much as they say guys do. I recognize that number (once every six minutes?) is an average, so I don’t believe that most guys think about sex as much as that.

And you are right, (warning, generalization ahead) women usually need to feel close to their partner to enjoy sex freely. It’s hard to relax with someone you don’t’ know well, no matter what you are doing together, even if it's, say, mowing the lawn. Relaxed, comfortable woman = orgasmic woman. Uptight woman = faking it.

A key factor (and one I don’t think men completely understand) is the body dysmorphia most of us suffer from. It’s hard to be sexy if you are worried about how your butt looks (and we do worry).

Let me give you a sample of an average woman's interior dialogue on a date:

The scene: you and your date are sitting in his apartmemnt after a nice evening out. He’s kissing your neck and all you are thinking is, “He took his hand off my boobs. Does he think they are too small? Too droopy? Oh, not like that, it makes my belly look flabby. All those sit-ups, and no abs in sight. Oh, don’t put your hand there; you’ll feel the cellulite on my thighs. Is he going down? Damn, he’s going down. Did I shave thoroughly enough? Oh, God, does it smell? Oh, forget it. I’m getting dressed and going home to sublimate with a pint of Ben & Jerry’s (tm). At least they won’t judge me for being a fat pig.” And the guy is clueless. He probably thinks he did something wrong. And all his assurances that she is sexy won’t help.

So, no, I don't think that women as a whole are less horny. And I do think that we are getting better about being comfortable with, and expressive of our sexuality. It helps to read threads like dantheman’s recent one about how much he enjoys cunnilingus. Heck, just getting a little older helps.

But remember, however far society has come, in terms of supporting women’s sexuality, there is still a double standard. It’s loosened a little, so just having sex doesn’t condemn you socially, but there is a fine line. Overstep that, i.e., be seen as a woman who has ‘too much’ sex, or too many partners, and you will still be socially stigmatized.

[MonkeyMule]

Jesus Christ you women are NUTS!

If I worried about every little thing that much I'd be twice as crazy as I am now.

Maybe this explains (partly) why men have no clue as to how to deal with women, it seems based on what Wintermute says that women are in a constant state of anxiety.

Is it any wonder men have a hard time picking up on the obvious signals? It's hard to pick up the "I like you" radio waves because they are drowned out from the neurotic static.

You gals need therapy
::hops off soap box::

[Rashak Mani]

I was hoping the women's neurotic inner thoughts of "Sex and the City" were very overdone... but seems its not.

I understand women need to feel comfortable with a guy before being able to enjoy sex more. (Sometimes I suppose they feel horny without the "comfort" level.) What scares me is feeling that even when they have been with the same guy a long time and should be enjoying sex more than ever... there is still that little bug... that little holding back. Examples:

Whenever I am away travelling for more than a week 2 of my ex-girlfriends once remarked how they missed me and wanted to masturbate but didnt...

I often act out some of my fantasies and the girls enjoy it too... but when I say they can do their fantasies it rarely ever happens. Not because they dont have them I suppose... but a bit of embarresment.

Mind you that I usually have steady relations of 3 to 4 years.... long enough to feel comfortable. Even then I feel a bit of holding back when there shouldnt be any. Talking with friends of both sexes I again have the impression that women hold back. Even when they are wild... they could be wilder.

Also what most women dont seem to notice... is that once a man is in a relationship... he WILL NOT notice small changes to her body. If she gains a pound or three... a little more celulitis or her breasts sag a bit... he won't notice or mind if he does. Quality Sex is what makes men happy in bed. Quality sex means women must be satisfied or very happy about it too. Men might be selfish in one night stands... but not usually with steady girlfriends. If women paid more attention to the sex part and less to the body parts... only very vain men care if a woman looks perfect.

[New Iskander]

Originally posted by Miller
This is so, so, so not true. Believe me, most guys love the idea of the woman making the first move. I can't iamgine why this myth has lasted as long as it has. It's got to be the sort of thing women tell each other, because I know it's not coming from men. If any guys think I'm wrong on this, please speak up so I can kick your ass for making it harder for the rest of us.

I was asked out by girls sometimes. I was totally embarrassed but went. I'd make my best effort to be a perfect gentleman: extremely considerate, scrupulously reserved. Thinking back, I might have made the ladies cry.

All of you guys have nothing on me.

Go ahead, kick it.

[Avalonian]

My summary of this thread, after reading Wintermute's last post.

Many men (including myself) are somewhat clueless when it comes to flirting. It doesn't help that flirting to one person is normal behavior to another, but we still miss some pretty obvious cues.

Women, on the other hand, need to learn to enjoy themselves more and stop over-analyzing things. If he's kissing your neck, girls, he's probably enjoying himself. If he's kissing lower, he is most assuredly enjoying himself. Assuming Wintermute's post is accurate about what women are thinking, you're definitely misreading the signals that guys are sending.

[Scribble]

Just posting to let you guys know that not all women share that Sex in the City-style neurosis.

If I'm out on a date with someone I'm attracted to, and I've grown comfortable enough with them to let them kiss my neck, and they start actually kissing my neck, my brain turns into mush. I'm not thinking much of anything at that point. I can't imagine wondering if my thighs are too big while I'm being kissed. There's no way in Hell that the thought of breaking off a passionate make-out session to go home alone to a pint of Godiva would ever even cross my mind.

And I've asked guys out--sometimes with good results, and sometimes with pretty miserable final outcomes. But, hey--ya win some, ya lose some. That's just the way it is.

[Scribble]

But, then again, I'm lousy at flirting. I do okay at making conversation, I think, but I'm not good at giving come-on signals.

[Wintermute]

Rashak, I'm not sure what you are looking for. I don't know your girlfriends, and I don't know what you feel you are missing in your relationships, so I'm not sure what to tell you here. If you've been with a girl for a couple years, that's probably as "wild" as she's ever going to get. If she's still not wild enough for you, I don't know what to tell you.

For me, I will say that, if I were horny, and you weren't around, I, personally, would masturbate without a second thought. Would I tell you I had? Probably not. Would I let you watch, if you were home? No. I don't take it up the a** and I probably won't let you come in my mouth. (I will, however, let you tie me up. So there are compensations. ;)) Life isn't like the movies. Everyone has different boundaries and comfort levels.

[Rashak Mani]

hehe... well my GFs did all the things you said you would and wouldnt do. Except masturbate.

Its not what I am missing actually which is the "topic" its the fact that I feel/think/imagine the girlfriends could loosen up a bit more, not feel bound (in the metaphysical sense) and feel free to do what she wants and to ask for things. I already feel pretty free in bed... and I want my bedmate to do so also.

Maybe they werent holding back a bit... and its only my impression too...

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by Avalonian
Women, on the other hand, need to learn to enjoy themselves more and stop over-analyzing things. If he's kissing your neck, girls, he's probably enjoying himself. If he's kissing lower, he is most assuredly enjoying himself. Assuming Wintermute's post is accurate about what women are thinking, you're definitely misreading the signals that guys are sending.

This is actually what I was talking about when I said men don't get the self-esteem thing. You must understand that many of us have been told from birth, that, because we are women, we are second best. Not good enough. Flawed.

Not to sound snarky, but have you picked up a magazine or turned on a TV lately? I'm not blaming the media solely or entirely, but it's awfully had to feel ok about yourself when everything around you is telling you that you're not.

(But there's good news! If you buy this product, it will solve all your problems. What? Still not perfect? That wasn't the right product for you; you have sensitive skin. Try this. No, still not good enough. You're not working hard enough. How you got a man is beyond me; you'll never be able to keep him with thighs like those. Lose more weight. Be a shark in the boardroom and a porn star in the bedroom, but don't forget to bake from scratch 32 cupcakes for your kid's birthday, each one frosted and individualized according to the allergy du jour. You used a mix?! Now be prepared to pay for years of therapy for your poor, abused child....etc., etc., ad nauseum)

Women are bombarded by these kind of messages constantly. Some of it is overt, and some isn't, but it's there, if you look for it. Watch the TV ads aimed at women, particularly during the daytime. I mean, men don't worry about being "fresh", or if the floor is clean enough to eat off of. Notice the covers of the magazines by the checkout stand at the grocery store.

This is not helped by the fact that we all know guys who will f*** with anything in a skirt. The fact he seems to be enjoying himself doesn't really mean anything. If you sleep with him, you know he'll get off, but will you? And, far more importantly, will he call you when he says he will? Because that's a better measure of how much he likes you than if he'll sleep with you.

On preview, let me add that I think Scribble is probably about the average. If I have to put my clothes back on to leave, I'm probably not going anywhere. At least until afterward. ;)

I mean, someone's getting laid, if all the babies around are a clue. :)

[Avalonian]

Well, now you're changing the issue, Wintermute... before it was what is the guy thinking, now it's what messages you get from the media and whether or not he's going to call youin the morning. Frankly, I think the latter two are more valid than the first one. You know what the guy is thinking, but you're not able to let go enough to enjoy it. I can understand that.

And if you really think men "don't get the whole self-esteem thing," then you haven't been reading this thread very carefully. It's full of men who seem to fully get the self-esteem thing.

[Rashak Mani]

Problem is that if you compliment her she will think your just wanting to make her feel better... and if you dont compliment her then something is wrong with her ? (Is that how it goes wintermute ?)

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by Avalonian
And if you really think men "don't get the whole self-esteem thing," then you haven't been reading this thread very carefully. It's full of men who seem to fully get the self-esteem thing.


I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to imply that at all. This isn't "My self-esteem is lower than your self-esteem." I was simply trying to illustrate what it’s like inside a girl’s head. I will admit, it’s my head, more or less, so it’s a little biased. However, I know/have known lots of girls. I maintain that it’s not an unusual line of thought. All right, most girls don’t leave, but I know I’ve been in more than one situation where I thought about it.

Originally posted by Avalonian
Well, now you're changing the issue, Wintermute...

Not at all. Let’s go back to that couple on the couch. We now have some idea of what she’s thinking about, but what’s running through his mind? Is he worried about those love handles? Does his thinning hair line even cross his mind? How about that unibrow, now that she’s up close?

Say you, Avalonian are (to use an analogy I’ve always hated) at second base and are heading to third, do you worry about the hair on your back (presuming you have hair on your back)?

No? Why not?

Originally posted by Avalonian
Before it was what is the guy thinking, now it's what messages you get from the media and whether or not he's going to call you in the morning. Frankly, I think the latter two are more valid than the first one. You know what the guy is thinking, but you're not able to let go enough to enjoy it. I can understand that.

How can you let go and enjoy? If you sleep with him, he knows you like him, but you still don’t know how he feels about you unless he calls you back. But why would he? You have so much wrong with you. First, you’re a slut for sleeping with him at all. And now that you have, you can’t call him, but you can’t wait for the phone. You eat way too much, you had three whole lettuce leaves and a diet cola, you wear last season and your purse is a knock-off. Your pores are too big, your hair is a mess, you hang out with the wrong people and go to the wrong clubs. You don’t read the right books, you don’t see the right movies, and you are stupid.

Oh, and you probably f**ked him wrong. You didn’t swallow, you didn’t make enough noise. Or maybe you made too much, maybe that’s why he hasn’t called you. Oh, my God, that’s it; you yelled too much and he knew you were faking. Or maybe you didn’t move enough. Did you smell bad? You douched before you left your house, but maybe that wasn’t enough. Maybe you should have gone to the bathroom at the restaurant and washed up again.

I’m not making this shit up. My point is, where does it come from? And, yes, I am pointing to the media, here. I doubt, somehow, that bushwomen worry about their smells, or the size of their pores.

Do you see what I mean, now? Does that clarify my point for you?

[mischievous]

Wintermute, my love, get some therapy.

I mean, sure, I'm a girl, and I have had all of the above thoughts go through my head. But they sure don't pass by very often and they sure don't stay very long. At some point, you have to recognize that your insecurity is your own.

I'm not trying to criticize you for having hang-ups. We all do. But this thread is starting to read like you're trying to make men feel guilty about your personal issues. You feel like a slut if you ask someone out - so men shouldn't expect normal assertion in women. You feel unbeautiful in intimate situations - so men should... what exactly? Compliment you? - probably not perceived as genuine. Call you back? - yeah, but should've already. No one, male or female, can mind read all of your particular hang-ups. It seems like you just want them to feel bad about you feeling bad.

This thread started out as a request that females communicate more clearly (to interpret slightly). What you're trying to tell us all is that females don't, won't, can't... and don't want to learn. That's a gross overgeneralization that doesn't apply to many of us. And it's an undesirable state, which I would suggest you try and change rather than making more excuses about why you pesonally have trouble asking for what you want.

Clear communication is a form of fighting ignorance. And asking for what you want is just common sense.

mischievous

[cuauhtemoc]

Originally posted by Wintermute
Not at all. Let’s go back to that couple on the couch. We now have some idea of what she’s thinking about, but what’s running through his mind? Is he worried about those love handles? Does his thinning hair line even cross his mind? How about that unibrow, now that she’s up close?
For several years, if you had asked me why I never approached women, I probably would have told you it was because I was too fat, and that no woman would want some big fat fuck like me. I wasn't fat fat, just a little soft in the middle. Well, I'm noticeably less fat than I used to be. Guess what? I went out and became da' ladies' man, right? Bzzzzt... wrong. Nothing really changed. I was insecure, period. If I'd been lean and cut, I'd have found something else to be insecure about.

I just bought a brand new car. It's nice, I like it a lot. But as I was driving along today, ruminating, as I often do, I started thinking "I bet a lot of women wouldn't date a guy who drives a Honda Civic. They want a guy with a Boxster or a Corvette or something. I guess I shouldn't expect to get any dates with a car like this" et cetera, et cetera...

Does that sound like crazy talk to you? That's because it is crazy talk. But it's no crazier than your ruminations on your boobs, your sexual technique, your womanly scent, etc.

The media is not exactly easy on us either, you know. "Will your wife still love you if you lose your hair? Better get Rogaine, just in case." "Are you a fat, slovenly bastard? Bowflex can help!" And don't forget "Why men are selfish, abusive perverts; tonight on Oprah."

[5-HT]

I guess I'm just lucky. I have the same lack of awareness as Miller, but apparently I only attract aggressive girls who have no qualms about making the first move. I could ask some of my exes to come visit you if you want.

[Miller]

I'll pay shipping.

[Tuckerfan]

Can I get one as well?

[CanvasShoes]

Originally posted by Rashak Mani
How repressed do you girls/women feel in relation to being free about your sexuality ?

There is always the impression that women hold back a lot... be it in the flirting... in asking out... in having sexual fantasies... and even within a relationship. We men tend to think women are less horny... but I feel that its not that much... that women repress themselves maybe.

Or maybe sex is just the sideshow for girls ? Part of the package and not so important.

Can't answer for all women, but according to such sources as B. DeAngelis, Erica Jong, etc, many women "hold back" not because they aren't interested in sex, but because first and foremost they want a relationship, NOT just a one night stand.

Having sex too soon in a relationship can (usual disclaimers apply) cause it to falter too soon, or cause the man to "bump and run".

For me? Sex, and GOOD sex at that, is an extremely important part of a relationship. I feel repressed only because of it's other "problems" outside a committed long term relationship.

[CanvasShoes]

Originally posted by MonkeyMule
Jesus Christ you women are NUTS!

If I worried about every little thing that much I'd be twice as crazy as I am now.

Maybe this explains (partly) why men have no clue as to how to deal with women, it seems based on what Wintermute says that women are in a constant state of anxiety.

Is it any wonder men have a hard time picking up on the obvious signals? It's hard to pick up the "I like you" radio waves because they are drowned out from the neurotic static.

You gals need therapy
::hops off soap box::

Actually, according the the psych experts that be, it's not "nuts" it's ancestry.

While you guys were out killing the saber tooth tiger to protect the homefront. The way women survived, ('cause face it, once we had kids back then, we were pretty much helpless to run from sabertooths, let alone kill food etc), anyway, our survival was dependent upon keeping the man that kept us safe and fed, happy.

To do this women became very observant to the tiniest nuance of possible displeasure on the part of her cavemate.

Just as your surges of testosterone rule you insofar as having to "spread as much seed as possible" and "killing the pigskin" etc. so does OUR ancestry lead us to "be on the lookout" for any little thing that may displease a man (such as WinterMute's description).

Of course the impossible standards that Hollywood, the Fashion Industry and popular culture set out as "necessary" (not to mention mysoginists like Tom Leykis), don't help.

Neither do the young hipper than thou "entitled" studs who judge women on the old "1-10" scale.

[Rashak Mani]

Reading thru Wintermute's description of what goes thru a womans head during "making out" reminded me that we men also have some of these wierd things going.

Granted its not about my hair smelling or if she noticed my socks were looking funny. Most of it consists in "How can I push the envelope here ? How can I get her more excited ? Let me just quickly brush against here nipple. Why is she still protective of her boobs ... we have been kissing for X time already. Hhmmm... she didnt react too well when my hand touched her side... maybe she is insecure about that area. (Yes I worry about the "no touch" areas of insecurity).

Its a lot about where is the kissing and fondling going and the next "tactic". Thinking about where to kiss her to make her go crazy next.

This is in the beggining of the relationship... after sometime together we know or should know how to turn on our girl.

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by mischievous
Wintermute, my love, get some therapy.

I mean, sure, I'm a girl, and I have had all of the above thoughts go through my head. But they sure don't pass by very often and they sure don't stay very long. At some point, you have to recognize that your insecurity is your own.

I'm not trying to criticize you for having hang-ups. We all do. But this thread is starting to read like you're trying to make men feel guilty about your personal issues. You feel like a slut if you ask someone out - so men shouldn't expect normal assertion in women. You feel unbeautiful in intimate situations - so men should... what exactly? Compliment you? - probably not perceived as genuine. Call you back? - yeah, but should've already. No one, male or female, can mind read all of your particular hang-ups. It seems like you just want them to feel bad about you feeling bad.

This thread started out as a request that females communicate more clearly (to interpret slightly). What you're trying to tell us all is that females don't, won't, can't... and don't want to learn. That's a gross overgeneralization that doesn't apply to many of us. And it's an undesirable state, which I would suggest you try and change rather than making more excuses about why you pesonally have trouble asking for what you want.

Clear communication is a form of fighting ignorance. And asking for what you want is just common sense.

mischievous

I didn't think I had to qualify my answers. Although this is the pit, these were clearly my opinions, and I expected them to be taken as such. I never claimed to be an expert on women, and, frankly, was uncomfortable being the only one posting.

Nor was it my intent to make any one feel guilty. I am sorry if anyone took it that way. I realize that this thread got hijacked badly, and had planned to post suggesting that we take it to IMHO, where we could solicit the opinions of other people.

And, FWIW, I realize that I'm fucked up, but thank you for pointing that out to me. :rolleyes:

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by CanvasShoes
Actually, according the the psych experts that be, it's not "nuts" it's ancestry.

While you guys were out killing the saber tooth tiger to protect the homefront. The way women survived, ('cause face it, once we had kids back then, we were pretty much helpless to run from sabertooths, let alone kill food etc), anyway, our survival was dependent upon keeping the man that kept us safe and fed, happy.

To do this women became very observant to the tiniest nuance of possible displeasure on the part of her cavemate.

Just as your surges of testosterone rule you insofar as having to "spread as much seed as possible" and "killing the pigskin" etc. so does OUR ancestry lead us to "be on the lookout" for any little thing that may displease a man (such as WinterMute's description).

Of course the impossible standards that Hollywood, the Fashion Industry and popular culture set out as "necessary" (not to mention mysoginists like Tom Leykis), don't help.

Neither do the young hipper than thou "entitled" studs who judge women on the old "1-10" scale.

Thank you, CanvasShoes for this and your post just previous.

[CanvasShoes]

And further in WinterMute's defense, I didn't get that she was saying that it was a CONSTANT stream of this kind of thing going through her, OR "all women's" heads.

Nor did I get that she was divided on ...

first it's what's going through her head,

then it's the media's fault etc.

People asked questioned, she answered "here in part is why".

And then she further answered "WHY do women sometimes feel this way?? Well, the media, societal expectations etc".

I don't think her two answers were contradictory, just informational and I thought she was pretty clear that "this is one woman's opinion".

I think she was saying more along the lines of "here's what SOMETIMES happens to cause women to feel and/or act more repressed".

Sure there are a lot of women (probably those of the younger generations :D), that have moved way past this (as seems to be evidenced by their actions such as in "The Real Rio," but a lot of us still spend time and energy trying to make sure we're "being good enough" from time to time.

It's no more "nuts" than the men here "not getting" that they were being hit on.

[Sauron]

Sheesh, you people are pathetic.

I've got hot desirable chicks flirting with me all the time. And it's so blatantly obvious, too.

The other day, a smokin' babe was sitting on a park bench, reading a book. She was transparently flirting with me, although she was trying to pretend not to notice me. The salacious way she turned the pages, the obvious "come-on" movement of her eyes as they scanned back and forth, back and forth across the words ... what a slut. I'm lucky she didn't throw me down right there and ravish me.

Then there was the incredibly hot chick who was in a meeting last week. She kept talking and talking about the production facilities a particular catalog printer had. I started to feel embarassed for her when she kept harping on "production facilities," all the while completely avoiding even the appearance of looking in my direction. I mean, how much more obvious could she be? I'm sure the other folks in the meeting were getting uncomfortable at such a naked display of lust. Finally I just couldn't let her continue any longer. I interrupted her in mid-sentence and said, "Look, I know you're panting after me uncontrollably, but I've got to tell you, I'm happily married. Go slake your thirst at some other pump, missy; I'm taken." She just stared and stared. I'm sure a trollop like that isn't used to being told "no," and having it happen so abruptly messed with her head.

Now it's getting even worse. Hot desirable chicks are sending me naked pictures of themselves completely unbidden. They don't try to hide it, either. "Come see these photos of a hot desirable chick!" is the type of e-mail I get regularly. I must be the only guy in the world who can inspire lust over a computer.

I gotta try to tone myself down some. Maybe I can get chula to describe to me how the nerds act.

[Grim_Beaker]

<snicker>

[Wintermute]

Mischeivous, what CanvasShoessaid. And CanvasShoes, thank you once again for helping clarify my points and for offering another point of view.


Sauron, LOL! :D So.....how you doin'? I love a guy with a sense of humor.

[Rashak Mani]

Oh I am envious of your suffering chick harrasment poor Sauron ! You great man... me just small one...