Pitting my best friend: You're out of control!

[Morrigoon]

My best friend is so completely out of control in his life that I don't know where to begin!

He recently got in trouble with the law for being caught on some serious illegal stuff, and is now attending Narcotics Anonymous meetings as part of his judgement.

Is there nothing being discussed at that meeting that gives him the slightest inkling of the fact that he obviously drinks too much too? How about having friends keep mentioning to him that he drinks too much? How about having his best friend (me) try to explain to him that while his behavior may not seem excessive within his social circle (the West Hollywood club crowd is all about drinking, smoking, and promiscuity), others outside his circle (including more socially responsible gay men, the kind he claims he's looking to have a relationship with) see it differently.

I hate to say it, but the adjective most often linked to his name these days is "drunk". Not that anyone's called him "a drunk" yet (except me, in my mind), but stories about him almost always involve his being or getting inebriated.

And while I'm pitting his inability to control his behavior - I've lost count of the number of times he's tried to quit smoking. I try so hard to be supportive of him when he does. When I see him try to bum a few puffs off someone else, I remind him that he's going to get hooked again, and he always brushes me off with some "special occasion" type of excuse. He spent a small fortune on the patch in '99 quitting just before our trip to Europe. While there, (because he can't imagine partying without drinking, and he can't imagine drinking without smoking), he started again. I warned him it was going to happen, and he brushed me off with "Oh, it's just when we're out partying" and later "I'll quit again as soon as we get home" (he didn't of course). Later he claims stress (I believe it, with his family) is the cause. But how many addictions does it take? He claims stress is why he smokes and why he drinks. He lies to me about the drugs, so I have no idea if he stopped using them or not.

I'm not with him enough to know how much he's drinking without me, but I suspect he's going out drinking mininum once a week, probably more like 2 or 3. And he usually drinks to get drunk. The worst part is, he sees nothing wrong with drinking to the point of plastered. I point out to him after the fact that he'd had too much and was behaving stupidly, and he laughs! He thinks his out of control behavior is funny.

His other friends and I are starting to discuss our suspicions about him, but none of us really knows what to do about it that will work. He's very easily depressed (luckily, he's on some legal medication for that, which is helping, but it isn't a cure), so we have to tread carefully to make sure we don't get the opposite of the desired reaction.

I've been considering staging an intervention, but without knowing exactly how much and often he drinks, I'm afraid of taking action prematurely.

DAMN YOU! Damn you for putting your best friend through this! DAMN YOU for hiding things from me and making me lose the ability to trust you! DAMN YOU for refusing to realize what an ass you're making of yourself! DAMN YOU for not wanting to change, because without that, there's NOTHING I can do for you! DAMN YOU for making me stand by helplessly and watch you bring yourself to this ruin!

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Better try Al-anon (http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/). Then at least you can keep from going crazy.

[Mama Tiger]

NA and AA tend to keep strictly to their own sides of the street. So unless and until your friend wants to go to AA/gets picked up for DUI and send to AA/gets told by someone at NA that it's hard to get straight when you're drunk, too, and maybe he should go to AA, he probably is gonna keep on drinking.

What Quagdop said. There's little harder than standing by and watching someone else self-destruct, but all too often help provided by well-meaning friends and family is equally destructive. You're in an area with lots of great Al-Anon; get thee to a meeting, and if you're not comfortable at it, keep trying. There are probably several dozen meetings a day you can try.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

NA carries a strong "avoid alcohol" message for the drug addict too, Mama Tigger. The NA preamble talks of the NA members' misery and failure at trying to stay off drugs while drinking alcohol. They treat alcohol as another drug to be avoided.

[Morrigoon]

Oh, I would never involve his family!
His parents are, I believe, the cause of his self-medication. There's nothing that will turn his ears off to a subject quicker than having the lecture come from his parents' mouths. The sheer amount of stupid shit his parents get on his case about would blow your mind. How many people ground an 18-year old for leaving his bed's decorative pillows on the floor? And 8 years later, things are no better. He moved home after law school to study for the bar exam, and hasn't been able to leave yet because he hasn't found a suitable job (and of course that little arrest of his has *ahem* delayed his getting sworn in). His mother still refuses to respect his privacy, barging into his room at any time without invitation. Her idea of "knocking before entering" is knocking-then-entering.
A recent argument with his parents (started because his father didn't like his tone of voice when answering his mother's question) ended with his father removing a part from his car to keep him from leaving (I was expecting him to meet me that afternoon). The last thing I'd want to do is involve people like this in any attempt to actually help him.

[Mama Tiger]

Yes, but I know in SoCal NA sticks strictly to dealing with the drug issue; they say to avoid alcohol, but if you want to DO it, you have to go to AA for it. Same for AA and drugs. The issue is identification with those who share your problem. Contrary to popular belief, there still are a lot of alcoholics who ONLY drink and a lot of drug addicts who NEVER drink, so each group sticks to what it knows best for treatment.

Morrigoon, nobody is suggesting involving his family. Quagdop suggested that YOU go to Al-Anon. It's for friends of alcoholics as well as family members.

[pool]

Stop being a little bitch and let your friend make his own mistakes.
You are not responsible for him, get a life!

[Disciple of Alf]

Pool, do you have any friends, or at least know what it feels like to care about someone?

[jjimm]

Originally posted by Morrigoon
I'm not with him enough to know how much he's drinking without me, but I suspect he's going out drinking mininum once a week, probably more like 2 or 3. I'm not doubting that he's probably got serious problems, but getting plastered at least once a week would be seen as perfectly acceptable and normal over here.

And do you have any idea how difficult it is to give up smoking? I'd say that, in terms of one's mental state (not health) that the smoking is the least of his problems. Let him get over the other shit before worrying about the nicotine.

[lorene]

Talking to his other friens is a good start, because often a person with troublesome behavior will be giving partial truths to a lot of people. For example, if you know that he went out drinking Tuesday, Friend B might know that he went out drinking on Thursday, Friend C might know of something else, etc. Pool all of your knowledge and you get something close to the truth.

Also, it is a huge concern if he is drinking that much while on antidespressants. With some of them, it's never OK to drink. With others, it's OK to have a small amount of alcohol. But I doubt that any prescribing doctor would find it OK that someone was drinking themselves silly while on antidepressants. (or, at all, most likely)

[lezlers]

I agree with jimm.

I opened this thread waiting to read about someone truly self destructing. The further down I got in the OP the more I thought to myself "so what?" It hardly sounds as if this guy's got one foot in the grave. Drinking once a week does not an alchoholic make. Most of the people I work with drink a lot more than that, and I work in a very professional environment.

Honestly, lumping in his smoking habit with drinking and drug use speaks for your tight-ass ness. You're going to alienate him and lose him as a friend if you harp on him for every vice he has. It sounds to me like you're riding him pretty hard, and that's not going to make him quit any time soon, all it's going to do is make him want to get as far away from you as possible.

This guy has graduated law school and still lives at home? This has been discussed in other threads and a concensus has been reached that there's nothing wrong with this as long as you have a good relationship with your parents. If his parents are truly making his life hell, then he needs to move out. Period. He's an adult, he has a law degree for Og's sake, he can handle moving out of mommy and daddy's home. Can't afford it? Get a freakin' roommate.

Honestly, aside from the drugs (which, due to your lack of elaboration, I'm assuming is a problem if he was required to attend NA meetings) I think you're overreacting. Be there for him, be his friend, but don't harp on him about things like drinking once a week or smoking. Stick to the things that really are problems, it's the only thing that's going to actually help him.

[Kimstu]

lez: Drinking once a week does not an alchoholic make. [...] don't harp on him about things like drinking once a week or smoking.

From the OP: friends keep mentioning to him that he drinks too much [...] the adjective most often linked to his name these days is "drunk" [...] he usually drinks to get drunk [...] he sees nothing wrong with drinking to the point of plastered [...] He thinks his out of control behavior is funny.

And as lorene pointed out, this guy is taking medication for depression, and I don't know of any such medication for which heavy drinking (even "only" once a week) isn't strongly contraindicated.

Doesn't sound to me like the OP is really overreacting. lez has a point that this much drinking doesn't necessarily make someone an alcoholic; plenty of people can take it or leave it alone. But big-picture-wise---this guy's been taking illegal drugs, he's constantly trying to quit smoking and can't, and his friends (and this crowd doesn't exactly sound like a band of small-town straight-arrow teetotalers, either) are concerned about the frequency and intensity of his drunkenness. Behavioral control issues here, possibly serious? I'd say, yup.

[Wabbit]

To be blunt, sounds like this guy is trying to off himself but doesn't have the guts to pull the trigger (or take the dive, etc. etc.). There's no helping him unless he wants to help himself which, according to what you've written, he doesn't. So either taser his dumb ass and haul him to some sort of brainwashing facility or wash your hands of him. Your call.

[Cat Whisperer]

He's an addictive personality. That will never change. If he quit the drugs, the drinking, and the smoking, he would find something else to fill the void. He needs counselling, and lots of it. He will probably need to hit rock bottom before he makes any changes.

What *you* need to do, [b]Morrigoon[/ b], is decide how much of a part of his life you can stand to be, and make that happen. (As for me, I have no tolerance for addictive personalities and have as little to do with them as possible. I don't blame them for being the way they are, but I don't hang out with them, either. This is based on my personal experience with them. Your mileage may vary.)

[lezlers]

Kimstu,

I've never been on antidepressents and have never been close to anyone who has, so I'm unfamiliar with how they mix with alchohol. I imagine, not well. The fact that he's drinking while taking them is not a good thing, I agree. I also stand by my statement that the OP is overreacting, namely because she's describing his behavior like he's completely out of control because he smokes cigarettes and drinks once a week. That sounds like pretty normal behavior to me. Hell, I smoke cigarettes and drink maybe once a week. My friends and family are hardly thinking of planning an intervention.

I think some clarification from the OP is needed, because from what was written, I don't see cause for alarm just yet. I'm guessing there's more to the story than has been written. The only thing that even caught my attention was that he had to attend NA meetings from being caught with "serious" narcotics, whatever those were. That is obviously something to be concerned about, the other stuff however, doesn't seem to be, from what's been written thus far.

[Zoe]

Does he drive under the influence? Does he even bother looking for work?

Once a week is not too bad if you behave responsibly. But, if he doesn't have a job, how is he paying for his booze and drugs?

I wouldn't expect him to stop all of his addictions at one time. I would cool it about the smoking until he is free of any other substance abuse.

I agree that he needs counselling -- badly and quickly.

[Typo Negative]

Originally posted by Mama Tiger
Yes, but I know in SoCal NA sticks strictly to dealing with the drug issue; they say to avoid alcohol, but if you want to DO it, you have to go to AA for it. Same for AA and drugs. . Horseshit. Complete and utter horseshit.

I am an NA member. At the begininng of EVERY meeting you will hear the following:
What is the Narcotics Anonymous program?
NA is a nonprofit fellowship or society of men and women for whom drugs had become a major problem. We are recovering addicts who meet regularly to help each other stay clean. This is a program of complete abstinence from all drugs. There is only one requirement for membership, the desire to stop using. We suggest that you keep an open mind and give yourself a break. Our program is a set of principles written so simply that we can follow them in our daily lives. The most important thing about them is that they work.


and


Thinking of alcohol as different from other drugs has caused a great many addicts to relapse. Before we came to NA, many of us viewed alcohol separately, but we cannot afford to be confused about this. Alcohol is a drug. We are people with the disease of addiction who must abstain from all drugs in order to recover.

[Morrigoon]

Clarification:

He drinks at least once a week, and he drinks to get drunk. To the point of lampshade on the head silliness. Luckily, he's a happy drunk. If he were an angry drunk, he'd have no friends left.

As for the drugs, I don't know enough to suspect an addiction. He's going to NA because he got caught. However, one of our mutual friends indicated that he does them more often than I thought he did. In fact, this particular mutual friend has been known to walk away from the group unannounced when my friend gets out of control, because he doesn't want to be around him.

The fact that <my friend's name> and the adjective "drunk" are so frequently linked is my cause for concern. No, not all my friends are teetotaling Sunday school teachers. But, for example, when I drink, one is enough, two is a special occasion. Last New Year's my friend had *6* drinks over the evening. And this was only a couple months after his arrest (for drugs), after which another mutual friend suggested he not do *anything* for a year, keep his nose clean, and not drink at all. My friend promised to limit himself to one drink in a night. Yeah, that lasted.... a couple weeks.

Then when he went on the antidepressants, he was told he'd be feeling the effects of alcohol quicker, so he needed to minimize his alcohol intake. That lasted... a few weeks. The other night night when he got so plastered, well, I'm not even sure how many he had, but it was strong stuff (vodka/martinis).

The reason I linked his alcohol and tobacco use is twofold:
1) He can't imagine partying w/out alcohol, and can't imagine drinking w/out wanting a cigarette
2) It's evidence of his addictive behavior, which is the biggest cause of concern for me

I probably should not have left out my concerns about his rampant promiscuity. In an age where AIDS is a huge concern, and your best friend is a gay man who gets drunk too often, well... you fill in the blanks. He claims he uses protection every time, but he forgets that I know enough of his past partners that one of them mentioned him getting drunk and not wanting to use protection.

I really try to stay off his back. I drop hints occasionally, but I try not to lecture or get in his way, lest I sound like his parents and lose all ability to influence him whatsoever. But how can I not worry?

Anyway, should someone trying to get a job in a professional field worry about being known as a "drunk?" I would think so...

[Cat Whisperer]

Someone trying to stay alive and healthy should be worried about being a drunk, a drug user, and a participant in high-risk sexual activity. Your friend has a lot of problems. My hope for him (and you) is that the bottom he hits isn't fatal. It probably will be. As someone mentioned earlier, he's committing long, painful suicide.

[Grey]

6 fucking drinks over an evening? Pints right? Lord help me; tell me they were at least pints or 3 fingers of scotch.

[lezlers]

Damnabbit, I had a nice long post written and the freakin' hamsters ate it. Ah well.

Morigoon, thank you for the clarifications. Now I can see where you're coming from a bit better.

As far as the "can't drink w/o a cigarette" thing goes, that's normal amongst smokers. You either have to be or have to have been at some point, a smoker to really grasp this. It's part of the habit and not abnormal at all.

I'll admit that drinking to get drunk is not a Good Thing. Most people who drink, drink to loosen up and have fun at parties, not for the sheer purpose of getting falling down drunk at parties. Most people would be embarrassed if they engaged in that sort of behavior. When you say that most of your friend's stories about him include him being drunk, it might not be because he's drunk all the time, it might be because he doesn't do anything "story worthy" unless he's drunk. Whatever the reason is, if you want to help him I'd suggest finding out why he's drinking like this and attempt to help him with the cause of it. If he's drinking to escape, which it sounds like he is, he's got to have a better option available for him to stop. Otherwise, what's the point? He has to recognize that there truly is a way out, and he has help to find it.

As far as the "keeping his nose clean" comments go, I'm going to have to reserve judgement on that one. I've got multiple family members who are coke heads and I coudn't give an unbaised opinion on that. The stuff is evil. But he's in NA, which is a start.

As for his sexual behavior, you've got to be either highly self destructive or living under a rock to be unaware of the dangers of unprotected sex in this day and age. I'm assuming he's knowledgeable about the dangers and I feel that's a pretty safe assumption to make. With all of this in mind, I'm afraid that his sex life is between him and his partner/s. As long as he's aware of the dangers, it needs to be up to him.

And of course, know when to back off. Don't let this consume you too.

[Rilchiam]

Originally posted by lezlers

As far as the "keeping his nose clean" comments go, I'm going to have to reserve judgement on that one. I've got multiple family members who are coke heads and I coudn't give an unbaised opinion on that. The stuff is evil. But he's in NA, which is a start.


Are you sure Morigoon meant it that way? "Keep your nose clean" is an old-school way of saying "stay out of trouble". He may just have meant steering clear of all destructive behavior.

[digitalskeeza]

Originally posted by Grey
6 fucking drinks over an evening? Pints right? Lord help me; tell me they were at least pints or 3 fingers of scotch.

lmfao! My thoughts exactly.

[Morrigoon]

Well, this last weekend was San Diego Pride, and he got drunk of his ass both nights (big surprise there... not)

It's just.... how many "special occasions" can there be in a week?

Anyway, yes, I think someone who gets arrested for meth use ought to avoid getting ridiculously drunk, lest they commit some other crimes and get more than a $10,000 (as it's beginning to cost) "slap on the wrist."

And over and above this- if you're trying to get a job, do you want your entire network thinking of you as the guy who gets hilariously drunk at parties? His reputation should matter to him - but apparently the only reputation he wants is of the guy who drinks to excess and participated in a 5-man orgy (which he happily told many more people than wanted to hear).

Grey and digital: well, 3 of those were martinis. Not exactly light stuff! One was a margarita (and a share of someone else's) one was a shot, and the other (I believe) was a glass of wine. Oh, and 2 martinis and the shot were in the same sitting. Keep in mind this was less than two months after promising me and another friend that he'd limit himself to one a night.

And as for the recent party, I don't know how many "drinks" he had because he mixed his own and he mixes strong! (New Year's '00 saw him fill a water bottle with half cranberry juice and half "So-Co" ... yes he has a nickname for Southern Comfort! Oh, and he finished it, of course)

[Typo Negative]

An interesting quirk in some alcoholics: They can get totally plastered on a relatively small amount of booze. Not all alcoholics develop a high tolerance that one might expect....

[parlo americano]

Get him out of his parents house.

sidenote: Being on my own for a few years and then moving back into my parents house, with no definate end to the living arrangement in sight, it was depressing. I get really depressed at times, for weeks or months even, and getting out of that is more difficult without having something to pull me out. I know I drink a helluva lot more when I'm depressed. I'm just trying to pull myself out of how I feel. And drinking makes me not feel sad. Getting back out on my own was hard and it took a while to get not so depressed but it happened. What helped was I started working on the things that make my personality such an addictive one.

Does your friend show any signs of wanting to work on his situation? Him making promises and such to other people just sounds like he's trying to get them to lay off. Perhaps instead of talking to him about his problems talk to him about your life and things you would like to change, this could get him to start to talk with you. Then you can ask him if he's happy or what he wants to change. I think the drinking could be bad but that's not what causes his problems.

[Mama Tiger]

Originally posted by spooje
Horseshit. Complete and utter horseshit.

I am an NA member. At the begininng of EVERY meeting you will hear the following:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is the Narcotics Anonymous program?
NA is a nonprofit fellowship or society of men and women for whom drugs had become a major problem. We are recovering addicts who meet regularly to help each other stay clean. This is a program of complete abstinence from all drugs. There is only one requirement for membership, the desire to stop using. We suggest that you keep an open mind and give yourself a break. Our program is a set of principles written so simply that we can follow them in our daily lives. The most important thing about them is that they work.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Well, spooje, you're an NA member. I've been an AA member for nine days shy of 27 years now, and I can assure you that AA neither wants nor tries to deal with drug problems other than alcohol. (Ever heard of that little thing called "singleness of purpose"?) Yes, most people who drink also use drugs, and vice versa. But in each case, the issues are different and people go to each organization for the identification that is the source of recovery in BOTH groups. I know many, many "double dippers." Yes, and in SoCal, too.

So don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I've been to hundreds if not thousands of AA meetings in SoCal, and people who want to talk about their drug problems are ALWAYS referred to NA. It's normally stated as, "We ask that you confine your sharing to problems related to alcohol." And when people start sharing about drug problems, they're invited to get info after the meeting on how to contact NA. (Or Al-Anon, or SLA, or CODA, or OA, or any of the many other self-help groups out there.)

All that being said, I agree 100% that if you're trying to stay sober, you should stay clean, and vice versa. I've known too many NA members, however, who have ASSURED me that they couldn't get and stay off alcohol in NA but had to come to AA for it to believe that there isn't a reason there are different programs for different addictions.

I'm sorry to hear, by what you're saying, that NA is trying to set itself up to help people recover from alcoholism, too, though. There's already a program for that. That was there first, in case you didn't know.

[Typo Negative]

Originally posted by Mama Tiger
Well, spooje, you're an NA member. I've been an AA member for nine days shy of 27 years now, and I can assure you that AA neither wants nor tries to deal with drug problems other than alcohol. (Ever heard of that little thing called "singleness of purpose"?) Yes, most people who drink also use drugs, and vice versa. But in each case, the issues are different and people go to each organization for the identification that is the source of recovery in BOTH groups. I know many, many "double dippers." Yes, and in SoCal, too.

So don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I didn't say it was horeshit in regards to AA. I said it was horseshit in regards to NA.

Remeber this?Yes, but I know in SoCal NA sticks strictly to dealing with the drug issue; they say to avoid alcohol, but if you want to DO it, you have to go to AA for it. Same for AA and drugs. . NA's position is that the focus be on the disease, not the substance. Hence, there is no distinction between the substances. We see no difference in terms of recovery from addiction.

[Mama Tiger]

Thus watering down your singleness of purpose. Sad, that's all I can say. AA does not and has never said it can deal with drug problems because the addictions are VERY different. I'm what they call a "pure" alcoholic, never addicted to anything else (smoked a little dope when younger but went back to my old standby every chance I got), and simply cannot identify with a bunch of drug addicts talking about their disease. Because it operates in very, very different ways.

If NA has decided it can handle alcohol, too, then I just hope it's around in 50 years to handle ANYTHING. I gather it adopted AA's steps but not its traditions?

[Mama Tiger]

Oops, hit send too soon. NA seems to be ignoring the principle that AA is founded on, that it's IDENTIFICATION WITH OTHER ALCOHOLICS that forms the basis for recovery. The program may be the same, but without that initial threshold identification, there can be no recovery. I've seen drug addicts come to AA meetings in areas where there is no NA and have real trouble identifying because they don't identify with us pure alcoholics. And I know if I had been sent to NA to recover from my alcoholism, it probably wouldn't have taken because that wasn't my problem.

Why do you think the birthday of AA is not when Bill Wilson got sober, but when he and Dr. Bob met and they discovered the key that identification of one alcoholic with another is the foundation for recovery?

[Typo Negative]

I can assure you that the program of NA is strong and recovery is happening here. And we are indeed grateful to the program of AA, for without it we would not be here. I would never suggest that someone couldn't find recovery there.

We have been here 50 years now. I agree that someone should go the program that they feel most comfortable with(where they can identify), and to attend meetings of that fellowship only. What I take issue with is the suggestion that one need to go one fellowship for this and the other fellowship for that.

We consider alcohol a drug (one which I partook of in great quantity). And it is dangerous for us to think of it any other way.

[Mama Tiger]

I'm not suggesting that NA folks shouldn't think of alcohol as a drug, spooje. But I can assure you that the VAST majority of AA members that I've met over the years take strong issue with your contention that you shouldn't go to the program where you can find identification with the people who share your problem, but do a "one-size-fits-all" type of program.

Have you ever been to a Double Winners meeting? They're all over LA, and have been catching on in other parts of the country as well. For people who are in both AA and NA, where they can actually talk about BOTH programs without being told they shouldn't raise their other addictions in whichever forum. I was the AA sponsor of a woman who was a Double Winner while I lived there; she also had an NA sponsor. AA generally RECOMMENDS you work more than one program if you have more than one problem; while we agree that taking drugs makes it virtually impossible to get sober, we also recognize that we aren't in the business of recovery from anything other than alcohol. I've also attended Al-Anon, and I can GUARANTEE you that what I learned in Al-Anon I would NEVER in a million years learn in AA. Different needs create a different approach.

And actually, NA is not at all healthy in some parts of the country I've lived in. I've known quite a few NA folks who attend AA meetings by choice because, as they put it, "These are share-the-recovery meetings, not share-the-disease meetings." I'm not saying there aren't share-the-disease AA meetings too, but when there's only one NA group in a 75-mile radius and that's all it does, what do you do if you really DO want to recover?

Sorry for the hijack, Mulligoon! But as you can see, some of us do care about recovery and want to see people succeed, whatever they're trying to recover from. And that includes you; if you really believe your friend has that big a problem, then do give Al-Anon a try. It's a wonderful program.

[Cat Whisperer]

Mama Tiger, I would very gently suggest that if it's working for Spooje and others like him, I wouldn't be dumping on it. Any port in a storm, and all that.

[Typo Negative]

Originally posted by Mama Tiger
I'm not suggesting that NA folks shouldn't think of alcohol as a drug, spooje. But I can assure you that the VAST majority of AA members that I've met over the years take strong issue with your contention that you shouldn't go to the program where you can find identification with the people who share your problem, but do a "one-size-fits-all" type of program.

I did not say that at all. I said this:I agree that someone should go the program that they feel most comfortable with(where they can identify), and to attend meetings of that fellowship only.

I think we are not as far apart as it seems on this.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Originally posted by Mama Tiger
I'm sorry to hear, by what you're saying, that NA is trying to set itself up to help people recover from alcoholism, too, though. There's already a program for that. That was there first, in case you didn't know.
I'd not be sorry about that. One of NA's greatest strengths is how it is open to people using all addictive drugs. I used to talk to Dr. Paul O. and his wife Max about this. Paul O. was the author of "Doctor, Alcoholic, addict" in the big book. The title of his story was recently changed because of the word "addict" in the title. AA waited until after Paul and Max were dead to do this. I know Paul felt badly about how some AA groups couldn't seem to deal with people who abused other drugs as well as alcohol. Paul thought highly of NA's ability to encompass all mood-altering drugs. And he learned his recovery basics in the company of Bill W. and Dr. Bob.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

I should add tho that Paul O. did feel strongly that AA's should focus on their core competency, alcohol. He didn't like to see people who were addicted to alcohol and other drugs being told they shouldn't come to AA because they'd also abused drugs.

[Soul Brother Number Two]

Double winner here. Here in the Bay Area, the line between dope and booze can be pretty blurry. AA meetings here, in general, are tolerant of discussions of drugs. You'll hear lots of people identify as alcoholic/addicts; some folks identify as addicts, and many many folks start out their shares with "Drugs are a big part of my story."

It's pretty hard to keep the two apart, especially when you're chairing a meeting. Some of the old-timers take exceptions to this, mentioning "singleness of purpose," but they are outnumbered by people who believe that "singleness of purpose" refering to "staying sober and helping other people achieve sobriety." And the old-timers, by and large, are cool with this. After a grumble or two, they generally hang in with the rest of us.

I personally belong in both groups, but I've chosen AA over NA because I like and identify with the sobriety I find in AA meetings.

essvee (2 years this Saturday!)

[Mama Tiger]

spooje, I understood what you said, but I disagree. I honestly don't believe that AA is the place for recovery from drugs, and vice versa for NA. Okay, call me a dinosaur, an old-timer, what you will. But I got sober in 1976, and I can assure you that the oldtimers who had 40+ years when I got sober were quick to assure me that AA was for treatment of alcoholism only and that the only way for AA to survive was to stick to its primary purpose. I'm one of those oldtimers you're talking about, essvee. I believed them then and I believe them now. (I might also add that I got sober in Ohio, in a group founded in 1940 by a member of the original Akron group traveling through town. So I learned ooooold-fashioned AA and have stuck to it ever since.)

Interestingly, I have no objection to people mentioning their problems with other drugs -- or food, or sex, or codependency, or whatever else their additions are -- in an AA meeting. It's just that the focus of the meeting should be recovery from alcoholism. Everything else is incidental. And while I've known a few really, really crusty old-timers to actually stomp out of a meeting or cut people off because drugs were mentioned -- and have been in many meetings where drug use is specifically instructed not to be mentioned (anybody else ever been to a Pacific Group meeting, or meetings with a large Pacific Group contingent? They'll bend over backwards to avoid naming any other drug they've used) -- I've also seen people try to recover from drugs in AA, and try to recover from alcoholism in NA, and fail both times.

Why make it harder for yourself? Why not go to where you can identify with the people there, and if that requires going to more than one program, why not? You go to a cardiologist for your heart, not your broken leg, and the orthopedist who treats your leg isn't going to treat your heart problems. Each has his specialty and sticks to it, and everyone does better in the end. In the recovery field, there isn't necessarily going to be a one-size-fits-all program. Different addictions manifest themselves too differently -- even physiological differences in the responses to drugs versus alcohol.

As an example, I've never had a drug problem in my life; I've taken quite a few prescription painkillers for various surgeries, some for a long time (over a year), and yet never once took even the full amount prescribed, let alone wanted to take more than permitted. In fact, I usually take half-doses in the few days immediately after surgery, when I really need the stuff, because that's all I need for pain control. And the day the pain goes away, I stop taking the meds and don't even notice it. So I could go to an NA meeting and hear you talking about addiction to prescription drugs, and it just would be meaningless to me. The two programs are simply not interchangeable.

I also have no objections to people identifying as alcoholic/addict. But when somebody identifies as "cross-addicted," I usually am one of the folks who calls out something snarky like, "Yes, but are you an alcoholic?" I also object to people in AA identifying as addict/alcoholic. Strictly word order, but I've had enough oldtimers point out to me that it helps focus the mind on the meeting you're actually in to think there's probably something to it.

Of course, I'm sitting here listening to myself and saying to myself, "Omigod, you have turned into one of those crusty oldtimers!" But you know what? I'm glad I have. Because if it's worked for me for 27 years -- and had worked for my first sponsor's father for 36 years when I got sober (yes, he got sober in 1942) -- I figure there's probably a good reason. If it ain't broke, I'm not gonna mess with it, not after having spent my whole adult life (I got sober at 22) as a happy person thanks to not drinking!

[lovelee]

Originally posted by Morrigoon
(New Year's '00 saw him fill a water bottle with half cranberry juice and half "So-Co" ... yes he has a nickname for Southern Comfort! Oh, and he finished it, of course)

Just a nitpick, but "So-Co" is a very common nickname for Southern Comfort. I knew it as "So-Co" before I knew the full name, and I don't even drink the stuff.