The 17 Yr Olds Ultimatum SAGA

[Isabelle]

For those of you following the story.......
I issued the 17 year old the ultimatum and he chose to move out.
He informed me yesterday that he didn't plan on moving out for 5 more weeks.

Well how could I put up with commuting 5 hours a day without a thank you & him not contributing enough money for gas? Eating me out of house and home. Turning the air conditior down below freezing and what has been my worst beef.....not doing any chores.

I called his probation officer and he technically doesn't have one at the moment. We should get one in 30 days. So no help there.

Since I can't legally kick him out. I pulled my trump card. I refused to take him to work today. This morning when I got up he was dressed for work but didn't say a word to me. I went off and did my own thing and left home. I called the house later on in the day and he wasn't there so I am thinking he got a ride.
Now will he get a ride home? Who knows?

I am trying to find out how to emancipate him but not having much luck. Since this was the suggestion of many.....does anyone have any ideas?

This is why mother animals eat their young.

[urban1a]

Why 5 weeks, Isabelle? I thought he was moving out last weekend? What happened with his idea to move in with his sister, BTW?

Bob

[Horseflesh]

You plan on eating him? That would solve 2 problems: no more rebellious teenager and you get to replenish your food stock.

Sorry, no useful advice to give as my kids aren't teenagers yet. Good luck.

[In Conceivable]

A five hour commute? That is just crazy. I assume that his place of employment is an hour and 15 minutes away from your house? Personally I wouldn't drive him to work at all. He can arrange other transportation which will probably cost him a lot more then paying you gas money would. Otherwise don't do it with out gas money in your hand first.

I don't know what your complaint about feeding him is. He is still your kid. You can get a lock box for the thermastat if you don't want anyone messing with it. As far as the chores go I am honestly at a loss to figure out how you can make him do them.

And take that damn cell phone away from him!!

Can you even emancipate a minor who doesn't want to leave home? How long before he turns 18?

[CrazyCatLady]

Call a lawyer, or see if there's a low-cost legal aid group in your area.

[Isabelle]

When he told me two weeks ago he was going to move out, he was originally going to move in with 2 friends who are both 20 yrs old. I don't know why this didn't work out.

He is waiting the 5 weeks because his sister's lease is up at that time and he will move in with her.

Personally I wouldn't drive him to work at all. He can arrange other transportation which will probably cost him a lot more then paying you gas money would.
------I live in a small city and the bus service is real slim pickn's. The closest stop to my house is 3 miles away. From what I understand his place of employment is so far out that the bus doesn't go that far.

No one at his job lives in our area so getting a ride is out.


I don't know what your complaint about feeding him is. He is still your kid.
------My beef was that I feed him for free. (He makes $350-500 a week) The ONLY thing I asked of him was to keep the livingroom clean and the boys bathroom but he refuses.

You can get a lock box for the thermastat if you don't want anyone messing with it.
-----Been there, done that. They figured out how to pick the lock

And take that damn cell phone away from him!!
----That is my next step

Can you even emancipate a minor who doesn't want to leave home?
------<sigh> probably not. Sounds silly now that I see it in writing

How long before he turns 18?
-----June of next year

[greck]

Originally posted by Isabelle

Since I can't legally kick him out. I pulled my trump card. I refused to take him to work today. This morning when I got up he was dressed for work but didn't say a word to me. I went off and did my own thing and left home. I called the house later on in the day and he wasn't there so I am thinking he got a ride.
Now will he get a ride home? Who knows?


Sorry if I'm out of line here,
but this smacks of passive aggression. It sounds like the expectation was that you would take him to work today. Unless you told him in no uncertain terms that you wouldn't (in which case, Good Job!) today, or yesterday, or whenever.

Please tell me that you specifically told him that you wouldn't be taking him to work today?

I don't mean insult you, I really do wish you the best with all this.

[Isabelle]

Greck I gave him 2 weeks notice saying I would no longer take him to work. His time ran out this weekend.

I would have taken him to work today had he done his chores and paid me gas money. But since he chooses not to a)do his chores OR b)pay me $50 a week OR c)move out, the only tool I had left was not to take him to work for not doing as he was supposed to.

I feel that he takes advantage of me by turning down the air conditor when he is told not to touch it. He eats constantly. He refuses to do any chores. He causes fist fights between the others. I commute 5 hours a day for him and I not only do not get a thank you, but he makes me wait on him all the time and he doesn't want to pay me $25 a week for gas. He thinks $10 should be the max.

Did I mention he makes $350-500 a week? He gets paid on Friday and all the money is gone by Monday and he has to borrow money from me.

This is why I didn't drive him to work

[Otto]

Wait until he leaves the house.

Call a locksmith.

Change all the locks.

Post a note on the door for him that he is no longer welcome in your home as he is not willing to follow the rules you set for his continued presence there.

[Syntropy]

Eee, Isabelle. After lurking through your threads, I finally feel I have something that may help.
My stepdaughter (now 20) lives in Utah. We are in California. When she turned 17, we started getting phone calls from her, telling us her mom wasn't giving her any help, she had no clothes or coat, she needed some money for a reliable car, etc. We sent her money several times. Finally, her mom called me and said "What is going on? Why are you not sending child support?" Mr. Maureen got on the phone with me and we told her exactly why. Turns out, Kendra (our oldest) was flim-flammin' her daddy & me but good. She had a job, she had a car, had money, had clothes. She was spending most of her time at her bf's house, not doing her chores, homework, letting her grades slip.....in other words, being 17. So, we put a quick stop to the gravy train. As did her mom. Kendra, being stubborn and (of course) knowing absolutely EVERYTHING, decided to do it on her own. Last year, we started getting tentative e-mails. This summer, she came and stayed for a couple of weeks. Took 3 years, but she has finally found out for herself all the things we & her mom had been trying to tell her. She's back in school, and even treats us like our opinion carries weight again. It takes some time, but hang in there. Tough love is painful, but it sounds like your youngster needs it as much as mine did. Good luck.

[In Conceivable]

Originally posted by Isabelle
I live in a small city and the bus service is real slim pickn's. The closest stop to my house is 3 miles away. From what I understand his place of employment is so far out that the bus doesn't go that far.

No one at his job lives in our area so getting a ride is out.



You are making his problem your problem.

There is no reason he can't walk three miles to the bus stop. It won't kill him. He can take the bus as far as it will go and get a coworker to pick him up at the stop. He can also pay someone to drive him to work.

There are ways he can get to work if he wants to. He doesn't have to figure them out because his Mommy always takes care of it for him.

[Dung Beetle]

Good luck to you, Isabelle. My kids aren't teenagers yet, so I follow your trials in hopes of getting a glimpse of my own future and perhaps nipping these things in the bud!

[greck]

Originally posted by Isabelle

1) I gave him 2 weeks notice saying I would no longer take him to work. His time ran out this weekend.

I would have taken him to work today had he done his chores and paid me gas money.

2) I not only do not get a thank you, but he makes me wait on him all the time and he doesn't want to pay me $25 a week for gas. He thinks $10 should be the max.

3) Did I mention he makes $350-500 a week?


1) Good job! Stay strong, he may try being nice next, or what's worse, he's probably gonna be pissed off for a while.

2) would a thank you suffice? I'm thinkin' if you're putting a price on the ride to work, you can set it at whatever you want, but you have to let go of the need to be thanked. Otherwise don't bother being his chauffer. Personally I think you should charge him more than $25, but if you want to negotiate for that plus a daily "thank you" that's your perogative.

If he can find a better deal, great, less trouble for you.

Unless you get something out of driving him to work? (again, no disrespect intended, but sometimes people feel a sense of power, control, martyrdom, etc. when doing favors for others- I'm not trying to probe here, but be honest with yourself or you're not going to be perceived as being honest with your son)

There's nothing wrong with telling your 17 year old that it's too much of a pain in the butt to take him to work every day.

3) Irrelevant. His money, his business. You own the taxi and the house, you set whatever price you deem fair on those. He owns that money, he earned it.

After the smoke has cleared in the house, maybe you can have an adult to adult conversation with him. Make an appointment, make an adgenda, leave your parenting at the door, work out the business issues only, not the personal ones. Concentrate on what's needed in order for you and him to be at peace.

[BMalion]

Dear Isabelle,


Sounds like you're talking about my 16 year old stepson.

I will assume you cannot afford to sign over custody to a halfway house for troubled teens and pay for his room and board until he's 18.

I will assume you've tried all the obvious solutions and they have not worked, (Been there, doing that, myself) so I'll just concern my response to the mechanics of removing this human from your home. Here's one option to consider:

Since you've given him a move-out date and he's not gone, assume he'll try and weasel out of the next and the next and... So, give him one more date to move out.

After the date has come and gone...

Have a large, no-nonsense male friend/relative who's been briefed and is willing to help out, heck get 2 if you can.

When 17 yr old is out of the house for a while pack a suitcase with some of his clothes/toilettries.

Have your male friend show up on the chosen day and and tell 17 yr old that he's got 5 minutes to say goodbye and get in the car. The presence of a large male will usually forstall any yelling or fisticuffs nonsense. They can "help" him into the car, and drive him to the bus station, you can even give him $20 and pack him a lunch. ("write when you get work, honey").

While they're gone change the locks. Pack up all his stuff/furniture and put it in the garage. Clean out his room. This will tell you and him that the times they are a'changing (It really helps to see and empty room mentally). If he shows up again call the sherriff.

Pray for him.

This is not easy. I'm going through it myself. Some people need to learn the hard way.

[Quartz]

If a probation officer hasn't been assigned, ask (politely) to speak to whoever is in charge (it helps to get their name before you ask) and thrash things out with them. If necessary, turn up on the doorstep of County Hall (or your local equivalent). You need more precise advice than any here can provide.

I've had professional dealings with the Probation Service in Bucks (I used to look after their computers). If the American cognate is similar, they will do their utmost to help you within their constraints, but you will need to push them - too many people cry wolf or simply want attention.

Good luck.

[Duckster]

1) Any chance your kid would have some money to buy a bicycle? (See below for help on this.)

2) When you get back the phone, is there a possibility the account can be converted to his name and a prepaid account? That way he still has a phone to waste money, but as a prepaid account he has to regularly fork out his money in order to use the phone. At least you can say he would still have a phone just in case he really needs help (he cannot blame you for "abandoning" him when his new bicycle gets a flat and he has to walk back home).

I'm sure the money he would invariably save by this, he could by a bicycle. :)

3) Don't change the locks on the house. To do means you are effectively throwing him out -- not a good move -- as well as expose yourself to those legal ramifications of throwing a minor out of their home.

4) Change your food shopping habits to buying only what you need for that evening's dinner and next day breakfast. He cannot mooch if there is nothing to mooch.

5) Refuse to do his laundry from now on. He's old enough to do it himself. Show him how to do it and inform him he better watch/listen. For that matter, inform him that if he leaves the house a mess with "his stuff" and not picks it up, it gets thrown out. Thendo it, but hide it in the trunk of your car.

Stay in touch.

[emmaliminal]

Dang, woman, this whole thing sounds awful. My parents went through some of this with my younger sister a little more than a decade ago.

Here's my free advice: find out precisely what legal responsibilities you actually have by way of supporting him him. Then do exactly that and find good ways (like Duckster's excellent suggestions) to avoid his taking advantage of you any further than your strict legal responsibilities. It might do you and him both some good to know what the law expects, if you don't already.

My sister has grown up and matured into the world's greatest social (case) worker. I'd loan her to you if I could, for her to get through to the kid's new probation officer and figure out what the heck they can do for you. There's a special way to get what you need from government services in this country, and it involves large measures of patience, irony, persistence, and balls.

Wishing you the best on a daily basis. Have you been able to extract that cellphone yet?

[emmaliminal]

PS: Duckster's #4 sounds like a pain in the ass, but it would only be a short-term pain in the ass; he's bound to learn in a few months that There's No Free Lunch at Mom's House Anymore.

[Isabelle]

I called him last night on the cell to remind him he had an 8:00 curfew assigned to him by the courts. He hung up on me.

He never came home last night.

[tanookie]

Well at this point he's broken his court appointed curfew.

Call and demand a probation officer be assigned since he's broken his and needs to be picked up.

Yes it sucks but if you don't do this they will do it for you. When my brother was underage he started running away. The police advised my parents to have a CHINS put out on him or they would. (CHINS is a Child In Need of Services thing that gets social services involved. If the parent does it they are asking for help - if the cops do it the parents are seen as neglectful at best)

If he gets into trouble they will ask you why he wasn't home and why they weren't called. Cover yourself.

[Dung Beetle]

((Isabelle))

[Phlosphr]

Isabelle - Please scroll up and reference [/b]BMalion's[/b] post. As a psychologist I can say this will send the messege. Clean out his room and pack a neat suitcase for him. You need to be strong cognitively, and beat him with his mental muscle match. Remain calm at all times, do not talk down to him in any way, and be loving. He will probably cuss and throw a fit seeing his belongings all packed up, but be nice. Continue this, he will not like you very much, but deep down he will hear you in his unconscious mind. Trust me, he'll hear you. He'll hear you even more when he's living on the floor of a friends house or in a halfway house. Stay loving, and be nice, and in time he will grow out of it.


p.s. - Stay strong for your own peice of mind.

[greck]

Originally posted by Isabelle
I called him last night on the cell to remind him he had an 8:00 curfew assigned to him by the courts. He hung up on me.

He never came home last night.

Call probation right now, demand the name of someone who will take responsibility for his case, and demand the name of their supervisor. Make them prove to you that whatever action they deem appropriate is done.

Why did you call him to remind him? Doesn't he know? What are you getting out of that? (these are rhetorical unless the curfew is a new thing). The point is, you're treating him like either a child or an idiot, either way you're treating him like someone who needs his mommy to remind him; not that he was right to hang up on you, but were you surprised he did?

next time don't nag, just make him aware that you'll be calling probation if he breaks his probation agreement, and then do it.

You can't change him, but you can show him that you're a responsible person and that will give him his best chance at wanting to change.

I fully disagree with having two thugs remove him from the house BTW, you're setting yourself up to be on an episode of COPS if you do that, may as well make sure he's not wearing a shirt.

[Isabelle]

Well I just paid the middle son a fair price to pack up and clean out 17 year old's room. I'm putting his stuff in the garage.

I just called the cell phone place to cancel the phone but even though it based on my credit, he is the user so only he can shut off service.

I am not going to try and contact 17 year old. But I am going to see if his 22 year old sister can keep tabs on him for me.

This is all I can handle for one day.

[Athena]

Originally posted by Isabelle


I just called the cell phone place to cancel the phone but even though it based on my credit, he is the user so only he can shut off service.


1 - he is a minor. He can't legally be bound to any contract. Did you point that out to the cell phone people?

2 - if you withdraw your credit, does he qualify on his own? You might want to point THAT out as well.

[Cosmopolitan]

You need to get in contact with a P.O. or someone who can get him assigned to a new caseworker, pronto. With all due respect, I think that's the most important thing you can do right now. Why? Because the consequences of his actions need to come swiftly & unequivocally & because if he violates as a minor, it's on your back.

In addition: I understand that you probably want someone who's not law enforcement to "keep tabs" on your son, but IMHO, it's not a good idea to ask his siblings to handle that job (or the job of helping move the kid out):

Point the first: It's not the responsibility of your other kids to keep an eye on this kid, help you move him out of the house, etc.

I suspect that when a parent "asks" his/her children to do something, the kids generally interpret it as the giving of a directive rather than the asking of a favor (i.e. "Could you please take out the garbage?" being code for "I want you to take out the garbage"). Therefore, what you see as "asking" your 22 year-old to keep an eye on her brother may be interpreted by her as a directive/command/order.

I know that family is supposed to look out for one another, but this situation isn't the same as an eleven year-old girl yelling at the neighborhood bully for picking on her six year-old brother at the playground. This is a legal issue & a family issue that mainly concerns you & your son; your other kids shouldn't be asked to be responsible in any way for their brother, as he has a parent who is legally capable of doing so.

Point the Second: Asking your other children to keep an eye on your boy, move his stuff, etc. may breed resentment toward you: Like I said, he's not their responsibility. Also, he may pull them to "the dark side", talking about how unfair you & your rules are, etc. That, you don't want.

Point the Third: Asking your children to help you out may, conversely, breed resentment toward him. His siblings may feel that they're getting screwed by having to babysit him, check up on him, move his stuff, etc.

I don't say all of this without some knowledge: I'm physically disabled & the elder of two siblings. My sister was asked by me (& by my parents, to some extent) to accept a lot of weirdness & do a lot of things for me because of my medical situation in early childhood & it bred resentment. We cleared it up, but better to avoid it if possible.

Good luck, once again.

[tanookie]

I agree with cosmopolitan about the resentment between siblings. I had to give up every extracurricular activity I wanted to be involved in to tote my brother around. I hated that, resented him and loathed my parents. My brother also resented having someone who wasn't his mother acting like she was. Unfortunately it all fell on my head when he didn't do things so I made sure he knew how I felt when I got into trouble for his screwing around.

I know you don't want him to get into trouble with the police but its too late for that now. You need to be pushier about getting him a probation officer before it all falls on you as his custodial parent.

And I don't understand the whole cellphone issue. If it is on your credit you should be able to cancel it. I'd find a supervisor or be prepared to have it defaulted on by your son.

Good luck. I can't imagine any of this being easy. I remember the days of picking up my brother off the street when I would find him wandering and dragging him to school/court/wherever.

[emmaliminal]

Isabelle, re the cellphone, I bet you got the runaround from some flunky making minimum wage plus commissions. You may have to get all formal on them and keep asking to talk to supervisors. It might take an hour or more. I would be truly shocked if the person who is responsible for paying the bill is not able to have it cancelled. I doubt it's legal. People can and do parcel out all kinds of misinformation over the phone -- phone companies are one of the worst at this, second only to power utilities and the IRS.

Good luck, still thinking of you often.

I have to say I agree with some of the above on the subject of getting siblings to help you. They may be up to it, they may not say they mind, but it's not helping your relationship with any of the kids. My mom used to "ask my advice" all the time about how to deal with my sister, and all it ultimately did was frustrate us both. I think it's worth it to avoid involving the sibs as much as you can -- especially the younger one. It does sound like you're getting exhausted by all this, though, so I can see why you would ask them to help; just not sure it'll be a good thing in the long run.

[Lilacs]

Isabelle, I agree with everyone saying you need to contact his probation office and see that someone takes over the case. In our office people cover other officers clients until a replacement is hired. If they keep saying they can't help you, ask for the supervisor. This really is technically their responsibility, especially if he is violating his probation. Leave numerous messages. Be a pest. Make them do their job.

Once they talk to you, tell them you want him out of the home. You're finished, through, whatever, but he just cannot live with you any more.

Have you reported him to the police as a run away? That is usually the first thing our Officers tell parents to do when one of the clients has run off.

He has violated his probation (by violating his curfew). Now you said in the other thread that he was no longer on Intensive Supervised Probation, So I don't know that the regular Probation office would issue a warrant for his arrest, I'm not sure what their procedures are. They may do an Order to Appear, in which case if he doesn't appear in court, then they would issue a warrant.

I hope this works out for you. I know you have been very frustrated.

[Vevila]

juvenile emancipation by state:
http://www.jlc.org/home/JLC@Work/info/FAQ/emancipUSA.html

I think another poster has mentioned you're in Florida. If not, disregard this link:
http://www.floridalawhelp.org/
(This is a list of free legal services/information in Florida.)

Good luck!

[Jonathan Chance]

Isabelle, I think I've mentioned before that I was you kid about 20 years ago. The only think that will wake him up from his resentment of you (and that's what it is...don't think otherwise) is a strong dose of 'being on his own'.

So cut off the cell phone...it's on your credit. Worse come to worse tell them you won't be paying. If it automatically hits your credit card tell your CC company not to accept any more debits from them. That bit about 'it's in his name so only he can cut it off' is bullshit. That's some flunky who's job it is to do ANYTHING to prevent someone from cancelling service.

Then make sure someone from juvenile service or the probation office take charge of the case.

Really, it's for the best. If he's not respecting your authority or the authority of the court system he's setting himself up for a great fall.

It's like the police psychologist told my mom when I got the handcuffs on me: "We're lucky we got to him before he knocked over a liquor store."

This is absolutely the best you can do. So be strong and do it.

[j.c.]

I'm really annoyed by the problems you're having with the probation office. It's not like you need any more trouble in your life.

Good luck. I admire you for taking these difficult steps.

[Isabelle]

The prodical son returned home last night and BEFORE curfew.
He said "what do I have to do to get a ride to work?" He said that he spent the night trying to find a place to sleep and then he ended up sleeping with someones dog. He said he didn't like being away from home.

I had taken the advice of some on this list and told the 15 year old sibling DO NOT REMOVE 17 year olds stuff from room. So nothing was changed when he returned home.

This morning I was able to get information on his new probation officer only she won't be in the office until after Labor Day.

I'm still working on the cell phone.

Thanks everyone for advice and prayers. MUCH NEEDED!

[FairyChatMom]

I have nothing to offer but my best wishes, Isabelle! But this latest bit is encouraging. Take care.

[Athena]

Originally posted by Isabelle
The prodical son returned home last night and BEFORE curfew.
He said "what do I have to do to get a ride to work?"

So what did you tell him?

[Isabelle]

I told him he had to have his chores done before I went to work in the morning (which consisted of cleaning a bathroom and picking up a livingroom) He did the jobs perfectly.

I also said he had to pay me for gas.

I forgot to post earlier that I traced a bus line within a 5 min walk from his shop. If he takes the bus he will have to walk 3 miles to the first stop and take a series of busses to get to the city of his place of employment. I do not know if the times of the bus will work with the time he needs to be at work, but I am going to call this morning.

Actually I am going to call my son and leave the bus number on his cell phone. Then withOUT him knowing I am going to call the bus and get the information too. This way it doesn't look like "Mommy to the rescue again"

I did tell him this morning that my giving him rides is "temporary" and that he needs to make other arrangements. He didnt' say anything.

[greck]

Originally posted by Isabelle

I forgot to post earlier that I traced a bus line within a 5 min walk from his shop. If he takes the bus he will have to walk 3 miles to the first stop and take a series of busses to get to the city of his place of employment. I do not know if the times of the bus will work with the time he needs to be at work, but I am going to call this morning.

Actually I am going to call my son and leave the bus number on his cell phone. Then withOUT him knowing I am going to call the bus and get the information too. This way it doesn't look like "Mommy to the rescue again"


Did you wipe his rear end too?

It IS mommy to the rescue again, only I think you're not rescuing, you're controlling. You calling the bus company is an extension of something YOU want, not what he wants, but what do you want? Do you want him to take the bus? Do you just want to stop driving him yourself? If it's the former, you're making a decision for him that he can make for himself and will resent you for making for him. If it's the latter, leave it at telling him you're not driving him. Maybe he can text message the bus company on his cell phone for information.

I get the strong sense that all of this has to do with your desire to control him, keep him close because you need him more than is healthy for a mother to need a son.

I'm really trying not to be critical of you here, but I see this type of thing alot. I don't think advice about the mechanics of what to do when your son is acting up is doing you much good until you deal with your own stuff first.

[Isabelle]

I do NOT want to drive him anymore!

I can't wait for the 5 weeks to be up so he can move in with big sister.

[greck]

that's good, but can you "let go of the steering wheel?"

[Isabelle]

It's true what you say GRECK (to an extent) that I want to control him. He has gotten himself into a lot of trouble with the law which has caused me a lot of money, a lot of time out of work and a lot of sweat. Ultimately he is my responsibility until he is 18. Since he can't seem to make good decisions, I find myself making decisions for him. I often try to make him think he is the one making the decisions when in fact it is me that has done so. (Just so he doesn't think I am going to wipe his butt everytime he poops)

In some ways I am enabling him but I weigh "enabling" with "keeping out of trouble" and "keeping out of trouble wins"

[greck]

The problem with that is that you're increasing the likelihood that he'll get in more trouble.

He knows you're manipulating him (or trying), and he's frustrated by it.

Fact: You cannot stop him from getting in trouble.

It sounds like you can't convince him not to either.

The best you can do is create an environment wherein he has the opportunity to look at himself in an unbiased way and make the decisions for himself based on what he ideally wants rather than his reactions to his relationship with you (simplifying here, obviously I'm not blaming you for his problems, it's just that you're the only part of his landscape over which you have any control).

To do your part in creating such an environment: become as responsible a person as you possibly can.

To become a responsible person: Learn about boundaries. I still maintain that this goes back to his father's departure, probably your relationship with that person or your father was abusive and/or involved alcoholism. Someone taught you to be controlling, this is the type of situation where people usually learn how to have diffuse boundaries, how to take responsibility for others, how to enable a disease, etc. -these are just guesses, food for thought.

[Isabelle]

<sigh> I wish he was play doh, I would remold him!

[greck]

how would you make him different?

[Isabelle]

I think I wouldn't have struggled so much with being his "friend" and would have focused more on being his "parent"

I would have prevented him from seeing his father who is abusive/druggie/alcoholic at any cost.
Currently I have an enjunctiion against him until my son is 18. It has been 5-6 or 7 years since he has seen him. But when he did see him it was unhealthy.

I would have drawn a line in the sand and when I said "don't cross it" I woulnd't have erased it and made another line and said "don't cross this one"

I would have found someone, somewhere to help me find programs to keep him busy instead of idle.

Although he has many flaws. He has a giant heart. He is smart although he is not making good decisions. (He graduated a year early)

He wants to be a fireman and is going to enroll in the program but you must be 18 and he has a way to go. I am not sure how I am going to foot the bill but I feel it is something I have to do for him.

[Bambi Hassenpfeffer]

Originally posted by Isabelle
<sigh> I wish he was play doh, I would remold him!
Not to sound harsh, but you can't. You can only focus on what you can do now. No more friendship, no more "well, make sure it's done by then, well, OK, another week," no more mapping out the bus route for him because you're tired of giving him rides at a price he sets. It has to stop now. His recent apparent cooperation is nothing more than temporary appeasement because he knows how to manipulate you.

You need to say no to rides, no to bus mapping, no to anything beyond basic survival services as required by law. It's hard (really hard), but it's all you can do. You absolutely need to call the probation office and advise them you need a probation officer NOW, and you're not going to hang up until you get one because your son is in violation of his probation. You also need to call that cell company and say that you will not hang up until your service is cancelled. As a minor, he cannot legally sign a contract, and therefore the contract is unenforceable. If you signed the contract, then the phone company is lying to you that you cannot cancel it.
(He graduated a year early)
Also, IANAL, but AFAIK the requirements for minor emancipation in Florida are a steady job sufficient for self-support (and $350 - $500 / week is enough in this state) and a high school diploma or equivalent. Find a legal aid office to help you if you want to pursue this further.

Finally, I agree with the others that you should not involve the siblings, as this is between you, him, and the state.

This Floridian is pulling for you. Please let us know how things go.

[Isabelle]

Ok last night before going to bed........I handed 17 year old bus schedule and bus fare and reviwed his route. He was being forced to get up at 4:30AM in order to walk 3 miles to catch the bus.

This morning I heard the alarm at 4:30. It made me wide awake (which ticked me off) I laid in bed for an hour fuming that I was inconveninced again. I got up at 5:30 to wake up siblings and what did I find? But 17 year old on couch sleeping!

So that left me with a decision.
I had to choose.

A. Go back to bed until 6:30 then wake him up and take him to work.

B. Let him sleep and go to work at 7:45 never to disturb him

I chose B. I feel guilty. He could lose his job over this and it would be my fault. One one hand I feel selfish. Where do I draw the line on "my duty as a parent" and "as a favor for a child?"

I don't want to drive him anymore! I am tired of getting up an hour earlier every morning. Driving in traffic 5 hours a day. Getting home after 8PM each night, getting up early on my days off and on holidays.

When he first accepted this job he did it without consulting me. He just assumed I would drive him. When I found out where the place was (7 or 8 months ago) I told him then that he was going to have to find another form of transportation that I wasn't going to be doing this all the time. Months went by and he never tried any other form.......although he asked around at work and no one lives in our city to get him.

If he loses his job not only will it be violating his probation, but it will be letting down his 22 year old sibling. He is supposed to be moving in with her Oct 1. She is counting on him as a room mate.

Did I do the right thing?

[Simple Dreamer]

You did the right thing. It's time he take some responsibility. I know it's hard, but he has to learn at some point.

[Johnny L.A.]

He could lose his job over this and it would be my fault.
No, it would be his fault for not getting up. I think there is a lesson to be learned here: "If I don't get up, then I won't get to work on time."
I don't want to drive him anymore! I am tired of getting up an hour earlier every morning. Driving in traffic 5 hours a day. Getting home after 8PM each night, getting up early on my days off and on holidays.
Can you drive him three miles to the bus stop? I know you don't want to "enable" him, but driving five or ten minutes is better than driving for hours. At night he can walk home. Walking three miles should take him no more than an hour.

IANA parent, and I haven't really been following these threads very closely.

[Isabelle]

I do NOT want to get up at 4:30 in the stinkn morning to drive him to the bus stop!

[Simple Dreamer]

If he took this job it is his responsibility to find away to get there and home. If he loses his job becauise he wouldn't get up when his alarm went off so he could be at work on time, that's his fault, not yours.

[lovelyluka]

:just now catching up and checking in:

Don't drive him. It's his problem, not yours. If he loses his job...well, honestly it doesn't make any difference to YOU right now, since he doesn't help you out as it is. So that's his problem too.

I know that if it were my son, I couldn't say this, but since he's yours, I'll say it for you: Let him hit rock bottom. I wouldn't work so hard to make him learn a lesson; don't work at all and he'll learn it just as well.

[Johnny L.A.]

I guess I didn't understand the distances. I thought he had to get up at 04:30 so that he would have time to walk three miles to the bus stop. Allowing 90 minutes to walk there (providing for dawdling tim) would put him at the bus stop at 06:00. Or if you assume a three-mph pace with no "cushion", then he'd be there at 05:30. But then, I'm forgetting that he needs to shower and get dressed in the morning. What time does the bus get to the stop? If it gets there at 06:00, then you could sleep until 05:30 and drive him to the stop. (I get up at 04:50, BTW; so sleeping until half past five would be "sleeping in" for me.)

In any case, if you were only to drive him to the stop, then you shouldn't have to wake up at 04:30.

[Isabelle]

The bus comes at 5:25AM.

If I do not drive him anywhere I can sleep in till 7:30. That is 2 extra hours for me.

That was one of my beefs with driving him. I did not like having to get up earlier.

[tanookie]

By 17 he should be able to wake up with an alarm clock.

If he is responsible enough to have the job then he should be able to get himself to work on time without your intervention. Where will he be when he lives with sis? Will she take over as mommy and wake him up for the bus?

The biggest favor (IMO) you can do him is let him grow up. He has to learn personal responsibility. Enabling his behavior does not help him in the long run.

It sucks for you to have to finally make him stand on his own but it sounds like the way things were sucked too or you wouldn't be unhappy with the situation and trying to change things. We can't go back and undo the past but we can work towards tomorrow.

I won't tell you what I had for responsibility at 17 but I sure wish it was clean 2 rooms and pay some gas money.

[Phlosphr]

The biggest favor (IMO) you can do him is let him grow up. He has to learn personal responsibility. Enabling his behavior does not help him in the long run.

Tanookie - you sum it all up with these three sentences. Then again I usually heed your words, they are usually very kindred and well thought out. Isabelle is in a dodgey situation and is having difficulty with tough love. I believe there will come a day when it will simply inevitably happen. Either Jail, or 18th b-day, or living w/sister.... I do want to think positively about the future for her, she's nearly at the top of this mountain...

Oh and Isy - All little boys can behave when they want something....

[auntie em]

Hi, Isabelle. First of all, let me say that I feel for you, Sister. But I have one thing to ask:

I'm wondering what will happen when he is living with his sister. Will he suddenly shape up and start budgeting money for rent and helping with housework? How will he get to work then?

I ask because my fear is that even when he's out of your house, he'll still be in your hair, because your daughter (I'm assuming . . . ?) will come to YOU when the burden of living with him becomes too heavy.

I've never been in this situation (and truly wish you the best of luck--hang in there!), but I feel like if I were the sister in this situation, and 17-y.o. became too much for me to handle, I'd do my best to foist him back on YOU.

Immature, perhaps, and I sincerely hope that doesn't happen, but do you have a plan if it does?

[Isabelle]

I don't know if he will change his ways when he lives with big sister. He wants to be a "man" and acts like a "man" when he is with her. Maybe he is more mature around her.....I just don't know.

My 17 year old respects the big sister better then me. <sad I know>

[Phlosphr]

Isabelle that is not sad at all. As a matter of fact it is quite normal. My two brothers and one sister were always tight knit and still are. We have always been closer to each other than with our parents. I don't think this is the norm but certainly not abnormal.

[Isabelle]

It is 10:45 and the 17 Year Old has not called me yet. I have been waiting to hear from him.......either "Why didn't you wake me up?........or "I need a ride"........or something, anything.
But instead my phone won't ring. I do not like NOT knowing what is going on in his head. I'm worried the hate he is going to have for me when I get home.

I try double hard since he doesn't have a father in the picture and it seems like no matter how hard I try.....I let him down.

Is it ok for parents to run away?

[greck]

Isabelle:

Get a therapist. Get one with whom you can really explore the effect the boy's father had on you, your own parents, your birth order, all the alcoholics you've ever known, anything that contributes to your current need to take care of/control others.

Maybe try alanon, they're pretty good at helping people figure out boundaries.

You have some investment in keeping this kid in diapers and it's contrary to his and your health.

Until you learn to deal with that, you're never getting anywhere with this kid.

Stop thinking about this situation in terms of what he's going to learn, start thinking about it in terms of how you're going to be a responsible person. He's perfectly capable of drawing his own conclusions if given a predictable and safe environment. Your job is to be a responsible person in that environment.

You did the right thing this morning. Believe that.

also, let go of "the martyrdom of st. Isabelle"

[Isabelle]

I am a control freak aren't I? The 17 Year Old is a control freak and manipulator! So we are toxic together!

I just called my church and set up an appointmetn with the counselor. I go next week.

I have been to AA, NA , Alanon and I tried the Fresh Starts program at church but I didn't really learn anything from any group. Other then what was happening in my life was indeed related to drugs and alcohol. I have been to numerous Parenting Classes and basically just picked up tips. Nothing to write home about.

At this stage I think running away to Jamaica for a month, sitting on the beach with margaritas and watching the pool boys is a good option. Let the household run itself!!

[troub]

Originally posted by Isabelle
It is 10:45 and the 17 Year Old has not called me yet.

I haven't really said anything about this so far, but I read this statement and was struck by it. Why should he call you? The ideal situation would be that he would figure out a solution to his problems on his own, which would entail not having to call Mom. Maybe he called the bus service to find out when he could catch the next bus. Maybe he called his employer and took a couple of sick hours until he could get the next bus. Maybe he called a cab. Or maybe, unfortunately, he's still asleep on the couch.

My younger brother (by about 2 years) was a little more "coddled" than I was, and by the time he was 16 or 17 he barely knew how to function without somebody doing things for him or telling him what to do. It was kind of obnoxious getting phone calls all the time requiring assistance, and quite often getting up in the middle of the night to find him when he got lost, check his oil for him, etc. We were happy when he stopped calling for assistance and started to figure things out on his own. When he first did this, though, he did mess it up a few times (like when he ran his car off the road, figured out how to get it back onto the road himself, and then proceeded to tell no one until it was noticed that he had busted his oil pan in the incident--the underside of the engine had a BUNCH of dirt and grass stuck in it when we looked at it :rolleyes: ).

He needs to learn that he can resolve his own problems (and that he has to if he wants to stay out of trouble, which is a unique situation with which I have no experience), and while he's learning he may screw up a few times but he should come out of it all the better for it. As they say, we learn from our mistakes. So what happens when someone keeps you from making mistakes?

[Isabelle]

Troub wrote
---------------------------------------------
Why should he call you? The ideal situation would be that he would figure out a solution to his problems on his own, which would entail not having to call Mom.
---------------------------------------------

Since I have not witnessed any of this behavior in the past, I just assume he will call me to rescue him. Yes ideally he would figure something out on his own and fast. Maybe he has and I am not giving him enough credit. Should I call home and find out?

As Greck pointed out I AM A CONTROL FREAK!! Since he can not make good decisions on his own (past troubles with the law) I try and control him in hopes of keeping me out of trouble and on the straight and narrow. I can see from reading everyones posts that I am not helping him this way I am only hurting him. I don't want this!!!! I want to be a good parent and do what is right. This tough love SUCKS!

So the million dollar question is: Should I call his cell phone and see what he is doing?

[Isabelle]

Troub wrote
---------------------------------------------
Why should he call you? The ideal situation would be that he would figure out a solution to his problems on his own, which would entail not having to call Mom.
---------------------------------------------

Since I have not witnessed any of this behavior in the past, I just assume he will call me to rescue him. Yes ideally he would figure something out on his own and fast. Maybe he has and I am not giving him enough credit. Should I call home and find out?

As Greck pointed out I AM A CONTROL FREAK!! Since he can not make good decisions on his own (past troubles with the law) I try and control him in hopes of keeping me out of trouble and on the straight and narrow. I can see from reading everyones posts that I am not helping him this way I am only hurting him. I don't want this!!!! I want to be a good parent and do what is right. This tough love SUCKS!

So the million dollar question is: Should I call his cell phone and see what he is doing?

[In Conceivable]

No. Do not call him. Let him handle his own problems.

[FairyChatMom]

No, don't call. Pretend he's a responsible almost-adult. Pretend he had a dream that he should get his stuff together, and he did.

I tend to be controlling, too, and it's a struggle to let go, but you have to. If you were abducted by aliens, he'd have to figure it our on his own. So sit back, relax, enjoy the trip to the Gamma Quadrant, and don't touch that dial!!!

So, how's the weather? :D

[Isabelle]

Too late
In Conceivable

I called and said I was just calling to see if you found a way to work and he said no. I said did you call the bus line and get another time available to get there? He said no. I said woulnd't that have been a smart thing to do? He said I don't care anymore.

I said well I need to go. I was just concerned. He said ok, bye.

[In Conceivable]

Why did you even ask us?

I am going to stop responding to your threads. You obviously are not really looking for away to make anything better. You must thrive on the drama in your life.

[Jonathan Chance]

You're just telling him that he has power over you by calling.

You can't

A) Constantly worry about him and try to make sure he's OK

and

B) Cut him loose to solve his own problems and grow up.

Those are mutually exclusive goals.

With that call you just gave him the satisfaction of knowing that the power dynamic between you two is in his favor.

[Isabelle]

Well FairyChatMom I will heed that advice tomorrow when I start out fresh. Afterall it is another day for him to begin his quest as a responsible adult and get to work!

The weather here is sunny, not too hot (about 89) Looks like we are going to get a thunderstorm this afternoon.

Jamiaca is looking pretty good to me still. Care to join me?

Ya know what is really tiring? I have 5 kids and this kid is the one who drains me the most! I feel like I have to put everyone else on the back burner to put out fires for him. I thought breastfed kids were supposed to be more self-sufficent? ha ha

I put him in a Christian Boarding school for a year in hopes of solving some issues he has, but it appears nothing wore off.
Aside from his normal schooling he received group counseling and personal counseling on a daily basis.
Looks like none of the skills wore off. Well that was a waste of time and money.

You know what would really work? The Military! But <alas> he refuses to go in. He says it will be too much like jail.

[Isabelle]

SorryIn Conceivable I jumped the gun after I asked.

I don't like the drama in my life. At this point I don't even like this child.

I have received some good tips from everyone and I think it will help to have my church involved with counseling.

I'm taking baby steps in this new territroy and do appreciate your comments and support!

[auntie em]

I don't have the kind of personal experience that Jonathan Chance has with regard to this issue, but I can tell you, as the child of an overprotective and domineering (though loving) mother, that your son will feel so much better as a person when he starts figuring out how to take care of his own problems!

I didn't do it myself until I was in my mid-20s, and yes, my mother still has many a "strong suggestion" about how I should handle things; but every day I pretty much feel like I rock, simply because I live in my own house (which I furnished myself), pay my own bills, and don't ask my mother for money. (My older sister, on the other hand, lived with my mom until she married a couple of years ago, and routinely asks my mother--who furnished most of my sister's apartment and pays my sister's gas card bill--for money to support her own kids.)

I know that if I ever fell upon hard times, my mom would help me out in any way she could, and that's comforting to me, but it's a real source of pride for me, given my sister's situation (and frankly, we're all enablers in that one--I've given my sister money, too), that she doesn't have to.

I feel all Mary Tyler Moore and shit.

Trust me--your son will appreciate the feeling, too (even if he's not tossing his hat in the air in the middle of a busy NYC street).

[Isabelle]

I think Greck hit a nerve when he said to trace back to where I became a controller. As a child - adult my parents made all my decisions. I was never allowed to make mistakes and learn from them. They told me when to eat, drink and poop and I did as I was told. I can remember even my first job was decided by them. I came home from school and my mother told me to change that I was going on a job interview at a nursing home. Little did I know that I already had the job (it was a friend of theirs) and that I would work in the kitchen. At 21 I wasn't even allowed to get my haircut the way I wanted it. At 22 I ran away. Yes I RAN AWAY It was at this time that I took control of my life. By then I had gotten pregnant and was raising a child on my own. We did not have life easy. There were times when we slept in the car and had nothing to eat. But I am a survivor and managed to get a duplex and like you, furnished it, etc...on my own and felt good. I never looked back. Now my siblings on the other hand (who are in their 30's) still depend on mommy to take care of them. I took control of things because I had to. Somewhere along the line I guess I never gave up that control. After writing this I see where I am doing the same thing to my son that was done to me and it is wrong (pure and simple)

I need a 12 step program so I am not a control freak.
I do have to say in my defense that with the other children I am NOT this way with them. I think it is because the 17 year old has gotten into so much trouble with the law. It has affected me.

[peri]

He makes enough money. He can get a bike for the 3 mile trip to the bus stop. Bikes and locks are cheap.

My son (who hasn't lived with me for years) bikes 8 miles to the nearest commuter rail station. 3 miles is nothing.

[Isabelle]

Well he did it! he got up at 4:30 this morning and walked to the bus stop. Only there were two bus stops. One on each side of the street. Naturally the side he chose......the bus didn't come to. He waited there till 6:30 and no other bus came so he walked home and asked me for a ride. I gave him a ride because he TRIED....he made a stride.....he made a good effort. He told me he has already made arrangements to get home.

It didn't take him too long to walk the 3 miles.

[Simple Dreamer]

That's a good step of progress on his part. :)

[Cardinal]

HOWWWWW did he choose the wrong bus stop? He's never ridden the bus to work at all? Ok, even then, wouldn't the direction of travel be a good indicator?

The real question is why he didn't go across the street and ask someone if he/she new which bus to take to this other town. The answer is: He didn't care enough. If there had been a million dollar prize waiting for him at work, he would have asked. I speak from problem-hassle-avoidance personal experience.

[Isabelle]

HOWWWWW did he choose the wrong bus stop? He's never ridden the bus to work at all? Ok, even then, wouldn't the direction of travel be a good indicator?
No he has never ridden the bus. To get to his place of employment you could have gone in either direction. I think it is understandable that he didn't know.

The real question is why he didn't go across the street and ask someone if he/she new which bus to take to this other town. The answer is: He didn't care enough. If there had been a million dollar prize waiting for him at work, he would have asked. I speak from problem-hassle-avoidance personal experience
He said there was no one at either bus stop. In order for him to get across the street he would have had to run across 6 lanes of traffic (big street) not so easy (fast) to get to the other side.

I bet if there was a million dollar pot he would have found a way!

I called the bus line and they said he should be on the "north" side of the street. I had to ask someone which was the north side cause even I didn't know.

Tomorrow is another day!

[Cardinal]

If the cell phone hasn't been turned off, he would have called someone for help in finding the right bus, if he had been REALLY motivated.

This is known as focusing on the problem, instead of the solution. Yes, there are a lot of excuses that could be made, if you want excuses. You could also have something that might be a solution, if you are willing to try hard enough.

[lovelee]

Originally posted by Isabelle
I called the bus line and they said he should be on the "north" side of the street. I had to ask someone which was the north side cause even I didn't know.

Why did you call?

[Bad News Baboon]

Isabelle,

I have been reading yor saga. I am sorry that you are having a miserable time with your son. I have to be really honest with you though. I think you need to start focusing on Isabelle more and on the son less.

You are coming off as a control freak and it does seem like you are thriving on the drama. Just let go already. That is the main problem I feel you should be working on at this point. The odd thing is, you want control over stuff that isn't (or shouldn't be) a problem (such as the bus) , but you don't take control where you should (i.e, the cell phone). Who is the parent again? Is it you?

If you don't deal with your issues now, be ready to face the same thing when your next child turns 17. Is that really what you want?

I see that you are signed up for counseling and I hope it works out for you.

[Cosmopolitan]

Hear, hear. You must, must, must stop doing things like calling to see if he made it to work & checking the route for him. It only serves to allow him to slack while making you feel that he's not doing anything to help himself.

I understand that it must be difficult letting your kids grow up, but that's what you gotta do: LET him grow up. Otherwise, he'll never respect you & he may also feel that you underestimate him anyway, so he'll just let you.

I know that sometimes parents just say things, just in case, etc.: I'm 24 & my sister's 22 - we live at home for financial reasons. We generally get along as a family so it's not too bad.

At the same time, however, I think that our living at home tends to trick our parents into thinking that we're 14 - sometimes I have to remind my folks of my age.

Case in point: They went out for the day while my sister & I hung around the house. Before they left, they told us to remember to shut everything up if it started to rain.

I just looked at them, then calmly & reasonably said that we're 24 & 22 & therefore know what to do when it starts to rain. My dad laughed & commented that yeah, he guessed we did. They're so used to being parents, I think, that they have to remind themselves to let go.

And that's what you need to learn to do - let go, slowly but surely.


*Side note: I think that you're off to a good start, but that you need to start really following the bits of advice that you feel are good. Otherwise, people may feel that you're asking a question while already knowing the answer.

[The Wrong Girl]

Anything new happening with this?

[Isabelle]

Well he didn't want to get up at 4:30 in the morning to ride the bus for the remainder of last week or this weekend so he spent the entire weekend at a friends house. (His friend works with him)
So he has yet to actually get up at 4:30 and take the 3.5 hour trek across town on the bus.

He is a foreman at the landscaping place and this incident happened and pissed me off.

His boss put a new guy on my son's crew. Someone who knew nothing about lawn service. My son told him to lock up the equipment in the cage and then they drove off. The new guy did NOT put all the equipment on the cage and left a $350 weed eater at the last place that they were. So what happend? The boss went back to the place and coulnd't find the weed eater so he charged my son $350 (because he is the foreman)

I think that stinks!

[twickster]

He was responsible for the equipment getting locked up, and it wasn't. It sounds like his boss is also trying to teach him a little something about responsibility and consequences. Good for his boss.

[Simple Dreamer]

A harsh lesson, but if your son is the foreman of the crew he's responsible for the equipment, regaurdless of his delegating the tasks.

[Vevila]

If your son is the foreman then he is responsible for the tools. How does it stink, exactly? Doesn't that help teach your son *responsibility* ? Or are you going to help pay for the weed eater and bail your son out ?

I said it before and I'll say it again. Contact a lawyer before your son moves out.

[Isabelle]

I guess several things bother me about this incident.

A few months ago the foreman of the crew (age 23) was arrested and put in jail. The boss then gave the title of "foreman" to my son. He gave him credit cards and booku responsibilities but not the pay. He was then responsible for a crew of 8 guys.
IMHO he should have recieved a raise too.

His foreman came back and my son was given the responsibility of foreman for another crew. Obviously if he wasn't doing a good job he woulnd't have recieved the responsibilites.

But where should his responsibilites begin and end?

When he was under the foreman he broke a piece of equipment (not on purpose mind you) and *he* was required to pay for it to be replaced. If I break something at the office I am not required to pay to replace it. No matter if it is a $500 printer or a $.99 pencil.

No I do NOT want to pay for the weed eater and bail him out of trouble! I agree this is teaching him responsibility but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Athena]

Sounds like yer son needs to just quit that job. It's a pain in the ass all around from what I can see. Hard to get to - lots of responsibility but no cash - and now he's expected to pay for a piece of equipment? Screw that!

[greck]

Originally posted by Isabelle

No I do NOT want to pay for the weed eater and bail him out of trouble! I agree this is teaching him responsibility but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

Relax, you're not paying for the weed eater (if you do, make sure you use a little baby powder to make sure your hijito doesn't get diaper rash)

A quick boundary lesson: Don't worry about "teaching" him anything in this situation. Work on respecting the fact that he can handle this on his own. Also work on the fact that you are unwilling to pay for his weed eater. Two separate things, not related to each other.

[Jodi]

ISABELLE, with all due respect, it seems to me that you have to not only tell him the following things, but tell them to yourself as well, and more then just say them, believe them.

If he wants to be treated like an adult, then he must make his own decisions and live with the consequences. If his job is not great, because his boss is unfair or the commute sucks or he pay is unfair or whatever -- it is his job and his decision to live with the situation, take steps to change it, or quit. No, you don't have to like how he's being treated, but you also don't have to be angry about it because it is not your business and not your problem. As his mother, you understandably don't like it when you think people are not treating him fairly but guess what? Life is not always fair. Shit happens to everyone and part of being an adult is dealing with it yourself. The bottom line is that it is not enough for you to tell him he has to make his own decisions and live with the consequences. You have to let him make his own decisions and let him live with the consequences.

How he gets to work is his problem. How he deals with issues at work is his problem. If he's not living with you, how and when and if he gets home or has something to eat or anything is his problem. Not yours.

And I am telling you as a lawyer that the cell phone company is b.s.'ing you if they say there's nothing you can do about his phone. Send them a letter that says you are revoking the authorization of your credit card; that his use of the phone has been irresponsible and you are worried he will not be able to pay the bill; that you have requested they shut the account and they have refused; and that under those circumstances you are notifying them that you will accept no further responsibility for any charge made to the account as of the date of the letter. Tell them that if they attempt to charge your card you will dispute the charges with the credit card company and send them (the cc company) a copy of the letter as proof that the charges are not authorized. Call the phone company and ask for the address and fax number of the billing department; be sure to put the account number on the letter (if you know it); keep a copy of the letter for your files; and then fax it to them.

You know in your head it's time to let your son go, because keeping him close isn't working for either of you. Now it's time to know that in your heart. Let the boy go. Don't call him more than once a week. Wait for him to grow up and find his way back to you. He almost certainly will, but not so long as the two of your are locked in a power struggle where you feel he's taking advantage of you and he feels like you're smothering him.

Let him go.

[Jodi]

And just to clarify: The phone company may be correct if they say that only HE can close the account (even though I doubt it, since he's a minor). But they certainly cannot continue to hold YOU responsible for the charges once you've notified them to the contrary. That's what the letter should say, and you want to send something in writing in case you need to prove the date of notification later. Good luck.

[Rilchiam]

Originally posted by Isabelle
When he was under the foreman he broke a piece of equipment (not on purpose mind you) and *he* was required to pay for it to be replaced.

That was when he fell in the pool with the leaf blower, right? Why didn't he just let go of the darn thing?

If I break something at the office I am not required to pay to replace it. No matter if it is a $500 printer or a $.99 pencil.


Your company probably has a lot more overhead, and can absorb these charges.

[zorabel]

He should find a job closer to home, sheesh.

[Isabelle]

The 17 Year Old had a job interview this morning at another landscaping place. This one is 5 miles from home.
He could easily walk or ride a bike.

[Isabelle]

The 17 Year Old had a job interview this morning at another landscaping place. This one is 5 miles from home.
He could easily walk or ride a bike.

[Isabelle]

The 17 Year Old had a job interview this morning at another landscaping place. This one is 5 miles from home.
He could easily walk or ride a bike.

[DeadlyAccurate]

Originally posted by Isabelle
I think I wouldn't have struggled so much with being his "friend" and would have focused more on being his "parent"

I would have prevented him from seeing his father who is abusive/druggie/alcoholic at any cost.
Currently I have an enjunctiion against him until my son is 18. It has been 5-6 or 7 years since he has seen him. But when he did see him it was unhealthy.

I would have drawn a line in the sand and when I said "don't cross it" I woulnd't have erased it and made another line and said "don't cross this one"

I would have found someone, somewhere to help me find programs to keep him busy instead of idle.

Although he has many flaws. He has a giant heart. He is smart although he is not making good decisions. (He graduated a year early)

It's not him you want to remold. It's yourself.

He wants to be a fireman and is going to enroll in the program but you must be 18 and he has a way to go. I am not sure how I am going to foot the bill but I feel it is something I have to do for him.

Why in the world would you pay for this? He's the one gaining the benefits of being a fireman. He should be the one paying for it. When he enrolls, he'll be an adult. Do you normally foot the bill for the expenses other adults incur, because I have a mortgage here...?

My point is, when he's an adult, you have no more responsibilities toward him than you have toward me, a random stranger a thousand miles away. Sure, you love him and want what's best for him, but you shouldn't butt into his financial business any more than you should mine. And his job is his business.

[Bad News Baboon]

I especially fail to see why YOU have to foot the bill for his training when apparently, he has a vastly greater disposable income than you.

Have you contacted the cell phone people yet? If he incurs $500+ phone bills, then I fail to see how he can't afford the cost of training.

[Medea's Child]

I stole this from some parenting tape my parents have.

"That's a bummer, I'm sure you can handle it."

Use it as a response, its proactive in that it is respecting the person with the problem, as well as being compassionate about the problem.

Couldn't find the bus? "That's a bummer, I'm sure you can handle it."

Idiot left equipment out? "That's a bummer, I'm sure you can handle it."

Didn't save up for fireman school? "That's a bummer, I'm sure you can handle it."

My parents started using this on us long ago. We got to the point that we only asked for help if we needed thoughts on how to handle a problem, actual implimentation is very much our own responsibility.

[Isabelle]

The reason I felt I should pay for the fireman training is because ...well......aren't ALL parents supposed to help their kids out with college and training? All the good parents I know do.
I kinda felt like I owed it to him. Like it was my duty. The same goes for medical and dental treatment.

I called the phone company and the phone has been switched in HIS name. He got the bill yesterday and it was only $147. WOO HOO! The last few months have been $600+ He told me yesterday that he can get it lower if he tries harder.

"That's a bummer I'm sure you can handle it" sounds like a good idea. I will try it. Thanks.

[tanookie]

I think what we give our children should be what we as parents can give filtered by what the child deserves. Have you voiced to your son all these things you feel are your 'duty'? If he feels entitled to these benefits as a matter of course then no wonder he doesn't feel he needs to earn them.

I will be more inclined to help a child who was working hard to help himself than I would a child who thwarted me at every turn.

Eventually too the children become responsible for themselves. That's what I feel a good parent does: raise a child to become an independant adult.

Not all parents can help their children with college or training. That doesn't make them bad parents just because they don't have the cash.

[Isabelle]

Well I do not have the cash and will be forced to take out a loan. A part of me also feels I have to compensate for him not having a father.

No I have not discussed my feelings of "duty" with my son. We don't talk on that level.

I would defintly not feel so resentful (for lack of better word) if I saw that he was putting forth a better effort to succeed instead of counting on me. He has said that he has to save XX amount of dollars before he signs up for school so in his mind he is making a huge effort. I didn't ask him how much XX of dollars was going to cover. Sometimes I am afraid to ask questions.

Now I have a 23 year old daughter who is living on her own and she is working full time and getting ready to go to school also. I don't feel any guilt about not helping her get into college. She used my tax papers and was eligible for some grant money. Is that wierd?

[Isabelle]

BTW we have our first "family" counseling session tonight at 7:30.

[FairyChatMom]

When I went to college the first time, the help I got from my folks was free room and board. They were coming from a 50s mindset, meaning my brother was the one who needed the good education because he'd have a family to support, whereas I'd be supported by my man. :rolleyes: I had to earn my tuition and pay for my own expenses and take out a loan. They didn't owe me anything after I turned 18, and I didn't expect anything.

On the other hand, we're able to send our daughter to college. She's up for a full scholarship with a little extra to cover books. My grandfather left her part of his coin collection for her education, and my grandmother had been giving savings bonds for a lot of years. In addition, my kid has been saving her own money. So her education will be paid thru the cooperation of several generations, including herself.

[ivylass]

Isabelle, like everyone else before me, you need to decide if you are going to baby him or let him grow up.

No, you are not obligated to pay for fireman school. If you can, fine. If you can't, you can't. It's not like your son has been appreciative of your efforts thus far.

I have already told my children that their father and I cannot afford to send them to college. (We just got them into private school.) It is up to them to get good grades and get scholarships.

DO NOT take your son to work again. As far as calling him when he's not home at night...I think that's discourteous of him because he's living under your roof, and you expect him home at a certain time.

It's quite possible your son is enjoying all this turmoil he is causing you. Try to go a day or two without calling him. Concentrate on your other children. As far as the food situation or the thermostat goes...I think you have to pick your battles, else you are going to be overwhelmed. Focus on the cell phone and the transportation right now.

And phooey on the five weeks. If he doesn't improve drastically in the next two days, pack his ass up and change the locks.

[Dolores Reborn]

Originally posted by Medea's Child
I stole this from some parenting tape my parents have.

"That's a bummer, I'm sure you can handle it."

Use it as a response, its proactive in that it is respecting the person with the problem, as well as being compassionate about the problem.

Couldn't find the bus? "That's a bummer, I'm sure you can handle it."

Idiot left equipment out? "That's a bummer, I'm sure you can handle it."

Didn't save up for fireman school? "That's a bummer, I'm sure you can handle it."

My parents started using this on us long ago. We got to the point that we only asked for help if we needed thoughts on how to handle a problem, actual implimentation is very much our own responsibility.


I love this line!

I have been following this thread closely, because my 19 year old acts along these lines too. I have been pulling my hair out trying to get him to act responsibly. I also spoil him way too much, and I have started to get resentful at how he takes advantage of me.

Hang in there Isabelle, I know how hard it can be. You seem to be getting some backbone, and almost everyone's advice is helpful. To us lurkers too!

[DeadlyAccurate]

My parents are great parents, and they didn't pay for a dime of my college. It was my education, not theirs. When I lost my scholarship for a semester due to low grades, it was me who got the loan to cover that semester. And it was me who paid it back when I graduated. I didn't ask for any more help than advice on how to start the loan process, and they didn't offer any more help than that. It was tough love, and I never resented them for it. On the contrary, I respected their decision to let me do things my way.

I'm sure they wanted to knock me upside the head for my mistakes. I'm sure they even desired to set things right, but they knew the mistakes were mine to make and mine to correct. And I did. And I learned my lesson. Without punishment and without babying.

[ThatDuckIsEvil]

Isabelle, I feel for you. I am not a parent, but I can imagine how extremely frustrated you must feel in regards to your 17 year old.

But as the youngest child growing up with older siblings who pushed the boundaries and made Mom a sick&tired wreck, please heed my words: DO NOT forget your younger children. DO NOT expend all your energy on the "bad egg" to leave the rest with sloppy seconds. Please make sure that you are relishing the good from them, and acknowledging it every day. You can break the cycle early with them and hopefully they won't feel the need to act out the way your 17 year old is.

Good for you on getting counseling! I wish you the best, and lots of happy vibes.

[ThatDuckIsEvil]

My parents didnt pay for my education. And frankly, I'm not planning on paying for my kids' education, if I ever have any. I dont think that makes someone a horrible parent at all.

[DeVena]

My parents didn't pay for any of their children's educations. It took my older brother 8 years to work his way through college, but he did it. With honors. I worked HARD to get a great scholarship, then I saved every penny during my summer jobs so I could have money at college. My parents let me raid their cupboards for peanut butter and soup. But never paid 1 penny for tuition, books or fees. We EARNED our college education. And value it all the more.

And yes, it is weird that you only feel the need to support the son and not the daughter. Why should he get special treatment? What has he done to deserve it?

[NurseCarmen]

I think it's BS that he has to pay for broken tools. Landscaping tools, by nature, work hard, then break. Not necessarily due to neglect or abuse, just normal use. What was it he broke, and how?

[Isabelle]

And yes, it is weird that you only feel the need to support the son and not the daughter. Why should he get special treatment? What has he done to deserve it?

He hasn't done anything to deserve it. On the contrary. Out of 5 kids he has received the most of everything. He is the child that is most like his dad. He thinks the world owes him something.
I divorced my husband yet I live with min-ex everyday!

As far as the tools go.
he fell into a pool while blowing the pool area and had to pay for the new blower. That was over $300.

He broke an edger and had to pay $75 to get ir repaired.

Now he had to pay for this other kids negligence.

[Quartz]

He's the boss there, isn't he? Isn't it wonderful that he's responsible for his staff?

[Isabelle]

the 17 Year Old played hookie from work yesterday (he has all week long) As I left the house for work I reminded him (as always to do his chores)

When I came home from work last night he wasn't home and his chores wern't done. I did NOT call him. I went about my business.

Last night was the first family cousneling session (which went pretty well) We got home at 9PM and I was greeted by a phone call from 17 Year Old to come pick him up. He was at a friends house that was 45 min away ONE WAY! I said no! He begged and said it was an emergency that the friends he was with got into a fight (they are boyfriend and girlfriend) and he didn't want to get in the middle of it and needed a ride home. Again I said no and went to bed.

I did not sleep a wink. I heard the phone ring many a times and could hear the other kids trying to make arrangements with their friends to pick up 17 Year old.

At 3AM the phone rang and I answered it really nasty. No one responded. Again I said "hello" no response. So I just listened in on the phone. I could hear wind as though it was a cell phone so I assumed it was 17 Year old. I left the phone off the hook and went back to bed.

I laid in bed envisioning that he was helpless somewhere and I was turning my back on him. What if this was his last phone call home and they found him dead? Oh I was miserable.

At 5AM I got up to call my boss and tell him I would be late. I had not slept a wink all night and was miserable. When I picked up the phone the person was still there. I tried disconnecting the phone but it didn't work so I resorted to using one of the kids cell phones to call my boss. Then I went back to bed.

When I got up at 9 this morning I picked up the phone and there was no one there. I asked my youngest son what ever happend with the 17 YEar Old getting a ride last night? he said they coulnd't find anyone so he spent the night at his friends house (the couple that was in the fight)

I guess it is safe to assume that 17 Year Old did not go to work again today.

17 Year Old confided in me yesterday that he did not go to work on Monday (memorial day) because it was a holiday. Well he later found out he was supposed to work anyhow and his boss was going to fire him. So he had 15 Year Old call boss and tell him that 17 Year Old was in jail. Boss said "ok tell him to come back to work as soon as he gets out" He hasn't been to work all week.

[DeadlyAccurate]

Good for you, Isabelle. I sympathize with you, and I know it must've been hard, but you stuck to your guns. I hope everything turns out okay.

[ewakko]

I think it's time for you to GET REAL. My bad, I watch too much Dr. Phil. I think you should send this whole thread to the Dr. Phil show. He'd probably have you on the show and hook you up with free counseling and do follow ups. Plus a trip to California would be cool. I have no other useful advice to give, becuase until you help your self and your insecurities, you won't get the conflict with your son resolved. Good Luck. I was hell on my mom too. She stood her ground and survived (so did I).

[Isabelle]

I'm really wanting to call 17 Year Old up and bitch him out. I want to yell DON"T YOU KNOW YOU ARE SCREWING UP YOUR LIFE, AND YOU ARE DRAGGING THE ENTIRE FAMILY DOWN WITH YOU? DON"T YOU CARE?

I wish I could knock some sense into him.

Yes I stuck to my guns and did not go to his rescue. But it did not feel good. It still doesn't. I have a loom and doom feeling hanging over me this morning and I don't like it.

[Jodi]

Yes I stuck to my guns and did not go to his rescue. But it did not feel good. It still doesn't. I have a loom and doom feeling hanging over me this morning and I don't like it.

ISABELLE, this is not going to be easy. It's going to be really, really hard. Your son is going to have to get a taste of reality the hard way, and he may even declare he hates you for refusing to bail him out.

But you know you can't allow things to continue as they have been! He feels smothered, you feel resentful, he learns nothing about responsibility, and you are exhausted by trying to help him do the things he should be doing himself. As hard as it is to kick this oversized chick out of the nest, that's what you have to do. He may be screwing up his life, but you CANNOT let him drag the whole family down with him.

If he's pissing his job away, what does that mean with regard to him moving out and in with his sister? How's he going to do that if he can't pay the rent. If you can stand some more advice, the next time I saw him I would inform him in no uncertain terms that when the five weeks is up he is out of there, the locks will be changed, and he had better have lined up some place to go. Make it absolutely clear you are NOT kidding, and then DO it.

And please keep trying to contact his probation officer. Tell him or her that he cannot live with you because he is disrespectful and absolutely refuses to obey the house rules. Tell him or her that you are concerned he will lose his job and then have no way to pay rent and no place to go. Make it clear to them as well that he CANNOT continue to stay with you.

Don't give up! It's hard to do the right thing for yourself and your other kids, but that's what you have to do. You cannot rescue him; you can only hope that in time he will wise up enough to rescue himself.

[tanookie]

All the stuff Jodi said and you have to make it clear to him that his problems are his own and not to make the 15 yo lie for him and to explain to the 15 yo that he cannot do that again!

[ivylass]

Originally posted by Isabelle
I'm really wanting to call 17 Year Old up and bitch him out. I want to yell DON"T YOU KNOW YOU ARE SCREWING UP YOUR LIFE, AND YOU ARE DRAGGING THE ENTIRE FAMILY DOWN WITH YOU? DON"T YOU CARE?



He knows, but he doesn't care, and you cannot make him care. All you can do is change your own behavior.

I am glad you did not go pick him up. Did you use the Bummer Line on him?

He will not drag the family down, not if you don't let him. So quit spending all your energy on him and concentrate on your other children.

Yes, you're going to have sick feelings in your stomach. But until he realizes you're not going to bail him out he won't to change, because you will be there to rescue him.

Tell your other children that they are not to lie for him. Ever. Have your 15 yo call the landscaping boss and apologize for lying and that the 17 yo is not in jail.

Go down to the probation office TODAY.

How many days until the five weeks is up? I would focus on that day, and get ready to change the locks and pack up his stuff. So bright and early on Moving Day, it will be done and over with.

[Isabelle]

17 Year Old just informed me that he quit his job and is looking for another. I knew him moving in with sister was too good a thought. The sister is going to be pissed. He was supposed to move in on Oct 1.

No I forgot to use the bummer line. I was on the other phone talking to someone else at the same time.

I want to run away.

[Chimera]

Go to court and have him emancipated. Then pack him a bag and kick his sorry ass out of your house.

Do you want to go through several more years of this crap, hurting yourself and him, only to have him hate and disrespect you? Or would you rather bite the bullet, suffer some temporary pain, hate and anger, so that maybe this will stop?

It's hard, I know you want to protect and help him, but it's not working. It won't work. It will only 'enable' him to keep pulling the same shit over and over.

Don't run away, Isabelle. Make him run away.

[Jodi]

Kick. His. Ass. Out. Kick his ass out! His quitting his job is NOT YOUR PROBLEM. His pissing off his sister is NOT YOUR PROBLEM. Where he's going to live, and how he's going to do it, is NOT YOUR PROBLEM. You set a date for him to be out of the house, some four weeks from now. Stick to it, and kick his ass out.

[greck]

Originally posted by Isabelle

1) As I left the house for work I reminded him (as always to do his chores)
2) I laid in bed envisioning that he was helpless somewhere and I was turning my back on him. What if this was his last phone call home and they found him dead? Oh I was miserable.



1) control freak! Do you think he's an idiot? He knows he has to do the chores, there are consequences for doing them and not doing them and he knows those (there are, right?). Ask him if he wants a daily reminder or not and respect his choice.

2) Rule #1- don't stress yourself out over him. Do what you gotta do to make yourself at peace. If your moral inner guide says you should go pick this kid up, then PICK HIM UP and get some sleep. Just be clear that you're picking him up for your own peace of mind than for his.

I repeat: Be sure you understand that what you're doing is for your own peace of mind. "I need to do this to feel ok with myself" That is a valid reason for doing anything.

If you need to pay for his fireman training to feel like you're a good mother, do it. BUT don't expect him to act accordingly.

You're acting out of self interest, that's your reward,

not him becoming a fireman, him liking you, him behaving, showing you respect, none of that. It would be nice if those things happened of course, but if you anticipate or expect them, you're setting yourself up for problems.

Feel like giving him money?

-do it.

But when you do, kiss the money and any hopes you might have for how it should be spent goodbye. If you give him $10 for lunch and you suspect he's going to buy beer with it, you've already paid twice. The $10 is gone, you put it in his hands and trusted him with it; you can't reneg on that by developing an interest in how he's going to spend it. It's a gift, not an investment.

So ask yourself this question before you give him money: "Can I give him this and not care about how he spends it?" If the answer is "no" then don't give him the money, you can't afford the cost.

[Shayna]

Jodi, I know you're a lawyer and all, so perhaps you know better than I, but can Isabelle kick out her minor child (he's still only 17, remember)? Isn't she legally responsible for him until his 18th birthday unless or until he's emancipated? I don't know where she is, but, as an example, she could get into some serious trouble doing that if she's in Arizona, according to this site (http://www.lawforkids.org/QA/Family/Family66.cfm). Question 66: Can a parent kick really kick me out of the house before I am 18?

Answer: A parent could kick you out of the house before you are 18 but there might be consequences for the parent.

Arizona Law (ARS §25-511) makes it a class 6 felony (imprisonment for 1 year and up to a $150,000 fine) if the parent of a minor child knowingly fails to furnish reasonable support for the parent's child. Another Arizona Law (ARS §13-3613) makes it a class 1 misdemeanor (up to 6 months in jail and a $2500 fine) for a parent to cause, encourage or contribute to the dependency or delinquency of a child. A minor who was made homeless as a result of being kicked out could be considered dependant or delinquent. It is also a class 1 misdemeanor under Arizona Law (ARS §13-3619) for a person having custody of a minor under sixteen years of age to knowingly cause or permit the life of such minor to be endangered. Being homeless or not having resources for food and shelter could be considered endangerment. I think she needs to tread veeeeery carefully before she takes any such drastic action. And she should definitely check with an attorney in her state to see what consequences there would be, if any.

[greck]

Originally posted by Jodi
Kick. His. Ass. Out. Kick his ass out! His quitting his job is NOT YOUR PROBLEM. His pissing off his sister is NOT YOUR PROBLEM. Where he's going to live, and how he's going to do it, is NOT YOUR PROBLEM. You set a date for him to be out of the house, some four weeks from now. Stick to it, and kick his ass out.

Not picking on you Jodi, but yours is a good example of advice frequently given here that's short sighted even though it's sound and I'll tell y'all why:

She's never gonna follow it.
1) Isabelle, I'm guessing you're of hispanic/latin descent, right? Either way(based on your prior post saying you lived at home till 22 or so), your culture dictates that kids live with their parents till married.
Now, that's becoming a bit americanized and is translated to "when they move out" but there's no push to get kids out the door at age 18 like in anglo culture (speaking as if there is one anglo culture -my apologies).

In the latino culture (as if there was only one) generally one does not abandon one's children at any age. It goes against a mother's moral code to kick the kid out. The child is viewed as a part of her, not a discrete individual. In essence, Isabelle would consider herself a sinner to kick the kid out.

2) Isabelle is enmeshed with this kid (sorry to put it so bluntly). To kick him out of her life would be the emotional equivalent of ripping out her liver. More acurately, it's like they share the same vital organs, and she can't send him away without letting her own go with him.

[Jodi]

You are probably correct, SHAYNA, that since he is not technically emancipated she is responsible for his welfare, including shelter -- but only, I would maintain, if he cooperates in the extension of care by following the house rules.

Under Florida laws, it appears that a person in ISABELLE's position can have her child declared a "child in need of care" and have the state step in to take over, but that is a long drawn-out process.

If I were her, I'd be calling his probation officer, asking what my options were and where I could get some help. And in light of the fact her son is 17 and a half and able to support himself, I would have zero compunction about kicking his ass out. This is not a child who does not have the sense and apparent ability to take care of himself. If he cannot follow the house rules he can LEAVE.

It does make me curious, though -- what are the terms of his probation? If they included following the house rules, minding your parents, keeping a fixed address or holding down a job -- he may well be violating probation. In that case, he's already the state's problem and it is doubly reasonable for ISABELLE to ask for some help in handling him. And if she was really nice, she could go talk to the probation department not becuase her son has already violated his probation but because he's about to -- something like "he's not minding, he's not cooperating in the house rules, I'm at my wits' end and I'm about to kick him out, at which point he'll be violating his probation." If the son has a "come to Jesus" talk with the PO in which it's explained to him that he can shape up and be cooperative or he can go to jail, maybe he'll see the light a little bit.

But I would absolutely say "You obviously don't like it here because you refuse to follow the basic rules of the house, so you need to find someplace else to live. You said you'd be out in four weeks, so have your arrangements made by then."

This is all said with the awareness that this boy will be 18 in less than six months. If we were dealing with a younger child, or one who did not have a history of being able to find and keep a job (if he wants to), my answer would be very different.

[Isabelle]

1) Isabelle, I'm guessing you're of hispanic/latin descent, right? Either way(based on your prior post saying you lived at home till 22 or so), your culture dictates that kids live with their parents till married.

Nope. I am Italian/French Canadian

Isabelle is enmeshed with this kid (sorry to put it so bluntly). To kick him out of her life would be the emotional equivalent of ripping out her liver. More acurately, it's like they share the same vital organs, and she can't send him away without letting her own go with him.

My concern is I am responsible for him until he is 18.

[Jodi]

GRECK, I think the idea that ISABELLE is culturally incapable of exercising some tough love with regard to her son both assumes facts about her we don't know and is insulting to Latino culture -- as if it requires you keep feeding and housing some adult free-loader who disrespects you and does nothing to contribute to the upkeep of himself or the household.. You also wildly misread my posts and my position when you say I am encouraging her to "abandon" him, which is crap. Insisting that a nearly-emancipated minor who wants to be treated like an adult actually act like an adult is hardly "abandonment."

I NEVER said she should "kick him out of her life." YOU may have said that but I did NOT. I said she should kick him out of her HOUSE. That does not preclude further contact with him, support of an emotional variety, or, heck, even of a financial variety when he seems to understand that he's going to have to change his behavior if he wants her help.

This is not an all-or-nothing proposition, where she has to cut him out of her life entirely if she insists he respect her. To the contrary, her position should be "I love you, and I want what's best for you, but you simply cannot treat me or my house like this anymore. This is not a hotel, this is not a restuarant, and I am not a taxi service. If you can respect me and the rules of my house, then you can stay. If you can't, then you need to go. I willl still love you either way."

Hell's bells, what do you suggest? She just continue to fork over food, shelter, and money because he's too irresponsible to keep his job, too immature to follow the house rules, and too short-sighted to budget his money? Oh, that's right, that's what she has to do because she's Latina. You guess.

I can't make her follow my advice. At the end of the day, I don't care if she does. But if it was my son, I would kick his ass out.

[Jodi]

Call his probation officer, ISABELLE. At least talk to someone at the office. Tell them you need help, and they should be able to refer you to a program where you can at least talk to someone who might have some better ideas.

[Isabelle]

Call his probation officer, ISABELLE. At least talk to someone at the office. Tell them you need help, and they should be able to refer you to a program where you can at least talk to someone who might have some better ideas.

I'm not sure of his "condition" of probation as he is changing hands right now. He is going from "intense" probation to the Dept. Of Juvenile Justice Probation. The rules are going to be different.

The original probation stated that he lived at home, maintained an 8PM curfew, attended NA meetings weekly, did house chores, attended at least one college course per week, gave weekly drug analysis, permitted random room searches by the police, was in college full time or worked a minimum of 32 hours per week, gave a monthly oral report on NA literature (I think that's it)

I was informed that his new probation officer will give him new rules to follow but was told to expect along the same lines of sanctions as previously directed by the Sherriff's Dept. I have a call into the Dept. of Juvenile Justice as of this afternoon. I am waiting for a call back.

Somewhere along the line I think I was told that if he didn't follow the rules from the Dept. of Juvenile Justice that they would return him to 'intense" probation.

While on intense probation a police officer comes to the house every 2 days at odd hours to check to make sure he has made curfew. Since no one has been around.....he has taken advantage

[lachesis]

Originally posted by greck
2) Rule #1- don't stress yourself out over him. Do what you gotta do to make yourself at peace. If your moral inner guide says you should go pick this kid up, then PICK HIM UP and get some sleep. Just be clear that you're picking him up for your own peace of mind than for his.

I repeat: Be sure you understand that what you're doing is for your own peace of mind. "I need to do this to feel ok with myself" That is a valid reason for doing anything.

If you need to pay for his fireman training to feel like you're a good mother, do it. BUT don't expect him to act accordingly.

You're acting out of self interest, that's your reward,

not him becoming a fireman, him liking you, him behaving, showing you respect, none of that. It would be nice if those things happened of course, but if you anticipate or expect them, you're setting yourself up for problems.

Feel like giving him money?

-do it.

But when you do, kiss the money and any hopes you might have for how it should be spent goodbye. If you give him $10 for lunch and you suspect he's going to buy beer with it, you've already paid twice. The $10 is gone, you put it in his hands and trusted him with it; you can't reneg on that by developing an interest in how he's going to spend it. It's a gift, not an investment.

So ask yourself this question before you give him money: "Can I give him this and not care about how he spends it?" If the answer is "no" then don't give him the money, you can't afford the cost.
i'm sorry, greck, but i think your advice here is just flat-out WRONG.

so far all that Isabelle has been doing HAS been "what makes her feel comfortable with herself". and the results appear to royally suck.

trying to change your behaviors and reactions, PARTICULARLY in dysfunctional situations, is going to cause discomfort, Amen, Hallelujah. changing ANY habit causes a certain amount of discomfort. and this is one whopper of a change in behavior for Isabelle. i would have been shocked and surprised if she HADN'T second-guessed herself all night long. (although losing a night's sleep certainly bites.)

BUT
IT
NEEDS
TO
BE
DONE
!

she's got to learn to disengage from these parasitic twinings that exist between the two of them. biggest lessons i gleaned from Al-Anon: 1) always doing the same thing in the same circumstances, and expecting a different outcome, is the definition of insanity; 2) the only person you can actively change is YOU; 3) the other members of the dysfunctional relationship WILL NOT WANT YOU TO CHANGE (will, in fact, try every trick they can to push you back into the same role you always used to play); 4) the surest way to change how it all affects you is to change your attitude and reactions to what happens, AND TO STOP (in a loving manner) SUPPORTING THEIR DYSFUNCTIONAL BEHAVIOR (i.e., no lying to the boss, no "making everything right" when they screw things up.)

maintaining her "comfort zone" isn't going to help either one of them, in the long run. either she's going to learn to let go of him eventually, allowing him to learn life's lessons even if it means taking the falls, or else they'll may well have a bitter, mutually-resentful relationship between them for the rest of their unhappy lives.

[Isabelle]

Whatever happened to "living happily ever after?" Yeah that's what I want! Give me a dose of that please.

And for the record I kicked my daughter out of the house!!!
I simply said "I love you but you are no longer welcome in my home" This happened when she was about the age of 19 or 20. The reason I kicked her out was because she was smoking pot and I caught her growing it at my house. I warned her 3x and on the last time I found it that was it. It hurt like hell but I had 3 other kids to worry about. Our relationship was very rocky for about 6 months but she finally came around. She now says it is the best thing that I could have done to her.

So I have the inner strength to kick 17 year Old out but I am worried about what I am responsibel for until he is 18.

[Shayna]

Originally posted by Isabelle

How long before he turns 18?
-----June of next year Jodi, her son won't be 18 for nearly another year, not "less than six months."

I'm not saying I disagree with your hardline approach. If you peruse some of her other threads you'll find at least one where I said pretty much the same thing and, in fact, called her on her inaction in pretty strong terms, as I recall. I don't know if she "forgot" about that thread or just "conveniently" ignored what I posted because she didn't like what I had to say (I was pretty much the first one in there who didn't give her the "oh, poor pitiful you" song and dance), but she never came back to post in that thread again.

But throwing a minor child out on the street with no means of support or shelter is just plain bad advice. It's parents like that who (even inadvertently) sic their unruly, disrespectful, law-breaking offspring on the rest of us in society. I think Isabelle has an obligation to help her son by any and all means necessary (INCLUDING calling his probation officer!!), as well as an obligation to the community not to let this idiot loose to wreak havoc on her neighbors (and all of us who pay taxes that will undoubtedly go toward supporting this loser).

Isabelle, at the very least, listen to Jodi about calling this kid's probation officer. Do it NOW! And do it EVERY HOUR ON THE HOUR UNTIL YOU GET RESULTS. Given that I and my fellow citizens have a stake in this boy's behaviour, I humbly request that you do something about this NOW.

Thank you.

[Isabelle]

I don't know if she "forgot" about that thread or just "conveniently" ignored what I posted because she didn't like what I had to say (I was pretty much the first one in there who didn't give her the "oh, poor pitiful you" song and dance), but she never came back to post in that thread again.
Sorry I don't know which thread you are speaking of but I usually stay pretty inter-active with my threads. Sorry if you felt I was neglecting your post. It wasn't intentional. Even if I didn't like the advice I think I would have said something.

I do not want any pity. I just want someone to give me the RIGHT awnser that will solve my problem RIGHT NOW. THIS MOMENT! I am frustrated and at witts end. I will gladly auction him off to the lowest bidder. Do I have any takers? He has good teeth. Stands 6'2" Is strong, good looking, the girls all love him.
He knows how to spend money, enjoys fine diningand can sell anything of no use to a homeless person.

[Shayna]

Originally posted by Isabelle

I just want someone to give me the RIGHT awnser that will solve my problem RIGHT NOW. THIS MOMENT! Isabelle, you've been given the RIGHT answer by NUMEROUS people here. Let me see if I can make it any freaking clearer...

Get off the computer and

CALL HIS PROBATION OFFICER -- RIGHT NOW!

And KEEP calling until you get some results!

Jesus, no wonder your son doesn't listen -- neither do you!

[tanookie]

Originally posted by Isabelle
I do not want any pity. I just want someone to give me the RIGHT awnser that will solve my problem RIGHT NOW. THIS MOMENT! I am frustrated and at witts end. I will gladly auction him off to the lowest bidder. Do I have any takers? He has good teeth. Stands 6'2" Is strong, good looking, the girls all love him.
He knows how to spend money, enjoys fine diningand can sell anything of no use to a homeless person.

I understand this whole situation is extremely frustrating for you and your family but no one has a magic wand that will make him straighten up and be responsible RIGHT NOW. This problem did not happen overnight and it will not fix itself overnight.

It sucks he grew up without a dad. He needs to get over it. So do you. Either you did the best you could for him or you didn't. It is irrelevant. You cannot reqind the clock and start over again - you can only work from here. 17 is not a baby anymore and he has to either adapt to live in this society or jail is not the worst thing that could happen to him. You have to stop giving him so much that he does not deserve and has not earned. But you know all this and it is hard and it is certainly not a route destined to earn you a popular win with your son. That's too bad. Sometimes the road we have to take is a hard one and it hurts while we are on it.

There are a lot of things in life that are not fair. Either we can wait around and complain about them and see if a magic fairy will come and right all the unfairness in the world or we can do everything we can to deal with what is in our lives right now the best we can. I gave up waiting for the magic fairy many many years ago - he ain't coming!

[Jodi]

SHAYNA, when I'm wrong I admit I'm wrong and in this situation I was . . . possibly not 100% right. :)

ISABELLE, SHAYNA is more the voice of reason than I. You probably can't kick him out without emancipating him first -- which you can do if you want to, but you have to go to court first.

BUT . . . the fact that he is BREAKING HIS PROBATION is a big, big deal and the probation department should be helping you. He is NOT working 32 hours a week, he is NOT meeting his curfew, he is NOT doing household chores. The fact that he is between probation officers is their problem, not yours. Talk to his old probation officer and ask who is being assigned it. Talk to the supervisor and ask when the reassignment will be taking place. Start calling, keep calling, and do not take no for an answer. The fact that you probably can't wholesale throw him out into the street -- as he so richly deserves -- doesn't mean your only choice is to have him in your house leeching off you and being disrespectful. Call probation EVERY DAY. TWICE a day even, until you get some help. And ask his new probation officer to work with you to get your son to shape up for as long as he remains with you.

No one can solve your problem except you. Your situation is a tough one, but no one can fix it but you.

[Jodi]

And another thing, you can certainly argue to his old probation officer that your son's case should NOT be reassigned AT ALL, because undoubtely the reason he is coming off intense probation and being scaled down to a lower level of supervision is because he was complying. Well, he's not complying anymore, he's breaking probation, so they shouldn't be lessening his level of supervision anyway.

[greck]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jodi
[B]
1)I think the idea that ISABELLE is culturally incapable of exercising some tough love with regard to her son both assumes facts about her we don't know and is insulting to Latino culture --
2)when you say I am encouraging her to "abandon" him, which is crap.
3)who wants to be treated like an adult actually act like an adult is hardly "abandonment."

4) I NEVER said she should "kick him out of her life." YOU may have said that but I did NOT.

5)Hell's bells, what do you suggest?

6)Oh, that's right, that's what she has to do because she's Latina.
QUOTE]

1) I never said incapable, I said it would feel like a sin.
2) I never said you were encouraging her to abandon her son.
3) now you're assuming what the kid wants
4) I didn't accuse you of saying that.
5) I've already suggested what I would suggest. If I come up with any more suggestions I will certainly suggest them.
6) I never said she was bound to any imperative, I merely stated that such an action would likely contradict one's culture assuming one is latina (which, of course, I was wrong in Isabelle's case).

I called your advice sound, btw.

[greck]

Originally posted by lachesis
i'm sorry, greck, but i think your advice here is just flat-out WRONG.


No it's not, you just misread it.
For this woman to give the kid money free of desire to get a "thank you" or (sorry Isabelle) love in return would be a HUGE stretch in her comfort zone. It's exactly this type of boundary violation that's got her in the position she's in now, and this is the way out.

Isabelle, there is your answer, the simply stated fix to your problems: learn some boundaries.

Simple and easy aren't the same thing btw, it's probably going to take you a long time.

[ivylass]

Originally posted by Isabelle
I do not want any pity. I just want someone to give me the RIGHT awnser that will solve my problem RIGHT NOW. THIS MOMENT!

Hell's bells, Isabelle, what the freak do you think we've been doing for your past three threads?

This problem did not develop overnight. You're not going to snap your fingers and get him into Respectful Child and Responsible Almost Adult Land just like that.

You may not be able to kick him out. Call the probation officer and tell him he's not working and he's not helping around the house. Establish the rules and don't bend them. Quit catering to him. If he turns down the thermostat, turn it back up.

You both have some retraining to do, him to learn respect, and you to learn to be more of a parent and less of a doormat.

I know you're frustrated. But the fact is, this is a crappy situation and you're not going to solve it with sweetness and light. You have to be the bad guy. After all, you have had one success story...your daughter, so you know we're right.

[zuma]

What a trainwreck... However, Isabelle seems a devoted, loving, decent person, and the tough-love advice shown her is pretty much on-track.

I missed the part about the probation officer, but anyone who needs a probation officer is already a lost-cause. Well, lost for a yeawr or two. I'd be more concerned with the 15 yo who will follow in his brother's footsteps unless Isabelle lays the law down for him!

The 15 yo boy is smiting you in favor of his brother... which is understandable, from a semi-retarded 15 year old standpoint.

Your focus now should be on the 15 yo brother. Severe punishments and moral lessons should be raining down on him right now! The 17 yo will be a loser jackass for a few years, but the 15 yo is about to go off the tracks as well. Get him on the straight and narrow, Isabelle.

[Rilchiam]

Originally posted by zuma

The 15 yo boy is smiting you in favor of his brother... about to go off the tracks as well.

Where do you get that?

[In Conceivable]

17 Year Old confided in me yesterday that he did not go to work on Monday (memorial day) because it was a holiday. Well he later found out he was supposed to work anyhow and his boss was going to fire him. So he had 15 Year Old call boss and tell him that 17 Year Old was in jail. Boss said "ok tell him to come back to work as soon as he gets out" He hasn't been to work all week.

I think this is probably what she was talking about

[Rilchiam]

Yeah, but when I saw that, I figured 15yo did that because he was scared of 17yo. Doesn't mean he's going "off the tracks" of his own volition and "smiting" Isabelle.

[Isabelle]

We landed an appointment with the new probation officer on Monday at 6:30PM

[ivylass]

Make sure you show up, even if the 17yo doesn't.

[Kithara]

Good luck with the meeting on Monday. I hope they will be able to offer some support and help. Stay strong.

[greck]

Originally posted by Isabelle
We landed an appointment with the new probation officer on Monday at 6:30PM

Why are you meeting with them?

I mean, everyone here agrees that it's a good idea, but for what purpose? What do you want out of the meeting and is it possible to get that?

As I see it, you can do a couple of things:

-You can open lines of communication with this person.
-You can rat on your son (and you should, because it's the right thing to do in terms of your own self respect) man, he's gonna be pissed, good luck.
Advice: make it clear that you're just interested in keeping your nose clean, and doing the ethical thing, not getting your son in trouble or teach anyone any lessons. You're just playing your role as part of the team, fulfilling your obligation; keep it simple and clear.


I think if you go in there hoping he/she will straighten out your son, you're setting yourself up for more disappointment and frustration. Let go of any anticipation of resolution you might have. Let the fact that you're doing what you're supposed to do be it's own reward.

-Disclaimer: described above is a philosophy, a way of approaching this from the inside out. If you really don't believe this, you're going to come off as spiteful, and that's a bad thing. Let go of your desire for a fix to this situation, THERE IS NO FIX, there is only the journey toward the fix. The journey IS the fix.

Make sense?

[Isabelle]

Why are you meeting with them?

Because he is not 18 and a parent must be with the minor. It is the law. He can not attend court appearances without me either.

I am just going to be honest and tell the PO what has been happening and let the chips fall where they may. I do not expect that she is going to "fix" the 17 Year Old. That kind of fixing has to come from within.

[greck]

YAY!

[Shayna]

Good for you, Isabelle! I think you deserve a pat on the back and major kudos for caring enough to want to do right by him (some parents would just say "screw it" and wash their hands of their kid until he was of age and be done with it), get not only him, but the whole family counselling (which was what I recommended in the last thread) and to understand that the only person who can change him is him.

Go You!

Best of luck with the counselling and the appointment with the probation officer. You are absolutely doing the right thing.

And Jodi, I cracked the heck up when you said I was the voice of reason after I posted in huge, bold caps. Thanks for the giggle (and the affirmation). :D

[Isabelle]

17 Year Old just asked if I would take him to a job site tomorrow morning at 7 to fill out an application. :rolleyes

[ivylass]

Absolutely not. He can get there on his own.

Tell him you are done playing chaffeur. :rolleyes: indeed.

[Isabelle]

17 Year Old just called and asked for another "favor" HA!
he asked if I would call the bus lines and get information for him.
I said "hold on" I gave him the number and told him to call himself.

This is getting easier!

[Simple Dreamer]

Good for you Isabelle.

[ivylass]

Good going...you're getting there. You are teaching him to be self-sufficient, which is the best thing a parent can do.

(Hint, next time, hand him the phone book and tell him to look it up himself ;))