Here is a Stick of Holly: Now whip me for my terrible spelling and grasp of grammer!

[Phlosphr]

**I'm peering out from behind the whipping pole. Hoping no one is too harsh. I laid the switch made of holly down and am waiting for the thrashing.**

Recently I have been horribly abused through no fault of anyone really, and prompted from my generally dispicable spelling prowess, or lack there of.

My name is Phlosphr and I am a bad speller. I use too many apostrophie's and I can not distinguish between laying down, getting laid, laying around or any other such terrible use of the word.

I'm a psychologist, and a teacher. I should know how to spell correctly 99% of the time. I am very scatter brained, ADD maybe, I thrive in chaos. Yet I can not spell to save my life. Not even all the years of latin in HS prepared me. I've coauthored text books, I've written countless articles, and produced copious amounts survey reports and publishable data, all with the shadow of a terrible speller on my back, resting like the cute little monkey it is.

I do not blame the weasel's, or badger's, [<-- see I did it again] I can only blame myself. Ergo, I hope people still continue to read and participate in my posts even though I'm afflicted with this terrible psyco-social-non-combative-semi-seasonal-affective disorder.

OW!!!!! WHO GOT ME FIRST! :eek:

:)

[Bruce_Daddy]

Its not a big deal, dont worry.

[Jackmannii]

Grammar. (I'll leave the question of "apostrophie's" to other members of the jury. Hint: the death sentence has been deemed too soft-hearted in similar cases).


And a holly switch is not good enough. We need something with spines to scourge you into proper respect for the language.

Maybe some nice stout ocotillo whips?

[Hamlet]

Please keep self-flaggelation to the bedroom with KY and tissues like God intended it to be.

[Phlosphr]

I hope you are being facetious. I had to atleast have one spelling error in the title....

[troub]

You may be surprised how many Ph.D.s and other academic "elite" can't spell (or write) to save their damn lives. As an undergrad in Computer Science, I used to earn a little bit of money by editing research papers submitted to a scholarly journal. These people were researchers, writing research papers, and couldn't construct a coherent fucking sentence if their life depended on it. Made up example (not exaggerating), "Water usage, in Southern california, has exceeded demand, by 20%, every year for 20 years since 1983, which has resulted in the need, urgently, to borrow or buy water from nieghboring comunities at a record pace, which outstrips even those comunities to supply water both for themselves and for the communities they supply water to." My job was to break these sorts of things down into actual sentences and correct spelling and grammar, etc. As long as you don't write 150-page posts on the SDMB with sentences like that, I won't have flashbacks that would force me to have to hunt you down :D .

[dalovindj]

Genius need not be able to spell. For spelling matters we have the lowly grunts known as proofreaders. Content is what it's about. The proofreader and the editor exist for a reason. Of course, do to the tedious nature of the work and the attention to detail required they can command a fairly decent wage. For the genius who cannot afford a proofreader I offer my empathy. It's like a Dj without a Roadie. I can still get the job done, but it isn't nearly as fun or painless. I'm not saying spelling is not important, just that a gifted writer should not have to waste his time playing proofreader. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to pay someone to proofread my posts before I post them. But in a perfect world . . .Correct spelling, indeed, is one of the arts that are far more esteemed by schoolma'ams than by practical men, neck-deep in the heat and agony of the world.
~ Henry Louis Mencken, The American Language

[Indygrrl]

I was going to say something, but you seemed too sweet. I'm anal retentive about such things.:D

[NutMagnet]

Yeah, and Phlosphr, buy a vowel*, will ya? ;)





or 3

[troub]

dalovindj, you may have a point there. Spelling is one thing, though, and grammar is another. Do you not agree that the oh-so-precious content of a genius' ramblings may be warped by communicating said ramblings in a confused, steaming heap of jumbled words and comma splices? Spelling errors are generally fixable and fogivable, as they may occur by accident or by hurriedness of thought. . .egregious grammatical and syntactical messes, however, often make the entire meaning of the sentence totally unclear or ambiguous.

You offer empathy to the genius who can't afford a proofreader. What do you offer to the genius who doesn't need a proofreader? (that's me, by the way :D ) Huh? What do I get?

[Knowed Out]

As Mark Twain once said (or something like it), "What kind of language is this where we can't use more than one way to spell a word?"

[Eve]

Originally posted by dalovindj
GThe proofreader and the editor exist for a reason. Of course, do to the tedious nature of the work and the attention to detail required they can command a fairly decent wage.

Oh, we can, can we? In Cloud Cuckoo-Land, perhaps, but not here in New York . . .

[dalovindj]

You offer empathy to the genius who can't afford a proofreader. What do you offer to the genius who doesn't need a proofreader? (that's me, by the way) Huh? What do I get?I guess I just offer to fogive them when they make spelling errors while claiming they haven't any need for a proofreader. Proper grammar is important, but again, a skilled editor and a proofreader goes a long way in helping a writer clean up the mechanics. However, given a lack of inspiration, a lack of a proper muse, all the proper grammar in th world aint gonna help a writer. Plus, verbing wierds language.

The Mark Twain quote is actually:I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way.
~Mark TwainSimilarly, Andrew Jackson once said:It's a damn poor mind that can think of only one way to spell a word.
~Andrew JacksonEve, at my temp agency the rate for a proofreader starts at around $18/hour and can go as high as $28/hour depending on which shift you work. Not exactly gonna set you up to buy mansions and yachts, but it beats minimum wage by a pretty good measure.

DaLovin' Dj

[troub]

Originally posted by dalovindj
I guess I just offer to fogive them when they make spelling errors while claiming they haven't any need for a proofreader.

:D I don't. If it's important I'll *gasp!* read it over a second time!

:D

[doomraisin]

Here's an idea:

Open up Word, or some other word processing program that has a spellchecker. Type up your stuff, run the spellchecker, copy and paste it into the post reply box.

The world will never know your terrible secret. Well, those who read this thread will. But we won't tell.

[dalovindj]

If it's important I'll *gasp!* read it over a second time!Making you a proofreader. A true artist would delegate any spelling related re-reads to a proper grunt. Particularly if it is important.

No judgement is intended here. It takes all kinds. We need proofreaders. I love 'em. I've actually done a bit of it myself many years ago. I work at an Investment Bank for almost 10 years now. Most of the time I have done Operator work. When I did do a little proofreading, not only did I start to feel homicidal urges brought on by the incredibly BORING work, I felt like I was ratting out my co-workers. We have a system. The Operator types up the document in question. The proofer marks it all to hell and returns it to the operator who makes the corrections. If the operator turns in a second version, and any marked corrections are not made, then you get a mark against your name. 3 Strikes and you are pretty close to fired. Still, between the Operator and the Proofreader, the Banker need not worry about how to operate the software, grammar, or spelling issues. He/she is free to focus on content and the accuracy of the data in the presentation. Similarly, in a perfect world, a writer would have a proofreader and an editor so that grammar and spelling issues would not fill up time which could be better spent on the creative end.

And spellcheckers are good, but they are no substitute for a real person. Particularly when it comes to grammar issues. And the writer whouldn't have to run it through the spellchecker themselves.

DaLovin' Dj

[eunoia]

Bookmark this. (http://www.spellonline.com/)

From now on, we'll assume all mistakes are made on purpose.

[Phlosphr]

Well the wonderful weasels gobbled up my Oh So Eloquent post. So here is an abbreviated version. Let's just call it Devine Providence.

Proofreading is one thing, spell checker is another. I agree completely with dalovindj, proof reading is truly an art. The proofreaders we have at this college i.e grad students do not get paid. However, they get something much more valuable to them. The possibility of having their names in print. My school is a prime hunting ground for farming some of the best talent in several specialities, Botany, Environmental Psychology, and Dance. Many students who leave here have their name attached to one or more projects affilitated with our school. I take much pride in what I do, and truly love teaching. I have met many genii who have been scatterbrained. Down right odd in some cases. Yet I have met none who were not willing to postulate as to why they were the way they were. Some went on, an on.

Those who are gifted with the art of the written word I salute you!




Why do I get the eerie feeling people are dissecting everyone elses grammar and spelling in this thread....

:) Cheers

[koeeoaddi]

Originally posted by NutMagnet
Yeah, and Phlosphr, buy a vowel*, will ya? ;)






or 3
Maybe he could borrow a few from me. :)

[erislover]

Proofreading is a luxury of the bourgeoisie.

[Biggirl]

wwhaaack thraaamp wwwwwhhhhhaaaaaaack
There you go Phlosphr. Um, why was I beating you for again?

[Phlosphr]

Oh simple pleasures is all Biggirl, just simple pleasures.;)

[Phlosphr]

Oh simple pleasures is all Biggirl, just simple pleasures.;)

[Angua]

*Whaack* I feel your pain, I really do. I can't spell or construct coherent sentences to save my life. Its why my supervisor frequenty asks if my text editor has a spell check!

[Brynda]

I just have to know how the hell you grade papers. When I was teaching, that was an important part of the job. Writing as badly as you do, can you recognize other's errors?

[GingerOfTheNorth]

Weirddave can't spell for shit. He used to call me in the middle of the night (when I was still two time zones away) and ask me how to spell things. I used to think it was endearing, now it's just annoying.

He's dysgraphic. Nothing we can do about it. Dictionary.com is his friend.

[Lisa-go-Blind]

Originally posted by eunoia
Bookmark this. (http://www.spellonline.com/)

From now on, we'll assume all mistakes are made on purpose.

Not so useful. I typed in: "Its that girl over their!" It was corrected to: "Its that girl over their!"

(For all those spelling- and grammar-blind, it should have read "It's that girl over there!")

[light strand]

Here (http://www.iespell.com/) is the best spell checker on the internet. It allows you to spell check message board posts by right clicking, and has a massive database of words. I'd be lost without it.

[Fretful Porpentine]

Originally posted by Brynda
I just have to know how the hell you grade papers. When I was teaching, that was an important part of the job. Writing as badly as you do, can you recognize other's errors?
Actually, I'd imagine that being a poor speller would make grading papers easier, at least if the primary subject of the class is not writing. Presumably Phlosphr grades psychology papers on content, not spelling. (Heck, I teach freshman comp and I have to force myself not to focus on surface errors more than I should. They're distracting, yes, but they don't indicate much about the students' ability to do research, analyze evidence, and think critically, which is the real meat of most college-level writing courses.)

Incidentally, one of the best freshman English instructors I have been privileged to observe, a guy who taught his students more about how to think like a college writer in a week than most of us do in a semester, also happened to be an appalling speller.

I'm sure some people will think I should hand in my English degree for saying this, but IMO, spelling is a low-level skill that gets more attention than it deserves.

[MLS]

FWIW, it's almost impossible to accurately proofread your own work unless you wait a significant period of time. You will just see what you meant, not what you wrote.

[dalovindj]

You will just see what you meant, not what you wrote.An all too common problem in these parts. Joking aside, you are absolutely correct. Anything of professional importance that I put out there will be proofread by others. On a message board, or any informal setting, I just chalk up spelling/grammar/punctuation errors to a lack of a proofreader instead of a lack of knowledge. In most professional settings (Journals, Novels, Magazines, etc.) a proofreader is a crucial and invaluable part of any writing process. My mistakes are not my own. Rather, they are to be blamed on the cosmos for not giving me the proper resources to have a proofreader on my staff.

DaLovin' Dj

[jjimm]

Phlosphr, as one of those who castigated you, let me say how bad I feel about it, because, as I said, I enjoy what you have to say. It isn't that important really - it just bugs me, perhaps way more than it should. I also kept my trap shut like a big coward until someone else mentioned it. So from being the self-styled Apostrophe Nazi&trade;, I now feel myself to be the Self-Loathing Apostrophe Nazi&trade;.

I leave you with this, though: plurals DO NOT take apostrophes. Verbs that end in the letter 'S' DO NOT take apostrophes. Apostrophes are for a) possession, and b) to indicate a missing letter (e.g. "don't"). More from me on the subject. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=185128)

[pencilpusher]

I'll beat you if you beat me...... ;)

[Phlosphr]

Brynda - I grade papers much the same way most instructors grade papers. I read them and if they are sticking to what I ask I grade them. I'm not an english instructor. Therefore you will never see these things in my grading - >

Frag
(sp)
run-on
para
compound-word
past
future

And whatever else grammar and spelling gurus look for. I want to know if you have a good grasp of what I am teaching. I had a woman last semester who was a returning student. She was a wonderful writer and had probably the best handwriting I have encountered in a long while. However, she was not getting what I was saying in class. I was teaching personality at the time and we were covering Ethan Fromm and Carl Jung. The midterm was simple. Analyze Jung from Fromms perspective and vice versa...

Easy test if you know how the way Jung analyzes things and if you know the way Fromm analyzes things. My point is I could careless when grading papers if someone spells something wrong, I want to know that they understand the course material.

And Jimm - no worries. I enjoy reading your posts as well.

And DJ- you are an eloquent elocutionist when you want to be:)

[Brynda]

Fretful Porpentine and Phlosphr, why do you believe that one cannot grade for both grammar/spelling *and* content? Sure, minor spelling errors are one thing, but poor grammar can make it impossible to determine exactly what the person is trying to say. For example, from the OP:

"Recently I have been horribly abused through no fault of anyone really, and prompted from my generally dispicable spelling prowess, or lack there of."

Huh? What on earth does the second half of this sentence mean? "Prompted from?" I repeat: Huh?

If the notion the two of you propose is common (and you a TA in English, FP, at the very place I got my Ph.D.), no wonder people who purportedly have an advanced education can't write.

Oh, and Phlosphr, I was a psychology professor for 8 years, so I have some idea about the papers you might grade. My strategy was to mark the spelling and grammar errors first, then re-read it for content. Depending on the course, I might not take the grammar and spelling errors into account in determining the grade, but I sure as hell pointed them out and had the student correct them. Learning to write means both having something to say and knowing how to say it. If you don't teach students both, you are failing them, IMHO.

[Phlosphr]

I might not take the grammar and spelling errors into account in determining the grade, but I sure as hell pointed them out and had the student correct them. Learning to write means both having something to say and knowing how to say it. If you don't teach students both, you are failing them, IMHO.

- I have never given a paper back after receiving the final draft and made a student correct it and resubmit it. My students have enough on their minds, they don't need a surly psych prof to deal with as well.
- If you don't teach students both you are failing them huh?
So I am failing my abnormal psych class which consists mainly of juniors? Haven't they had enough grammar lessons if they are a junior?
- If you'd like to agree to disagree that is fine. But the converse of your last statement happens to be my point here. I am here to teach all facets of psychology to students attending my classes. I do not want to waste time giving them a grammar lesson when I need to be teaching them how to calculate Chi Square! I do not know your teaching methods, but my methodology speaks for itself through my students grades.

[Fretful Porpentine]

Fretful Porpentine and Phlosphr, why do you believe that one cannot grade for both grammar/spelling *and* content?
I do. In my comp class, surface errors can lower a student's grade by 1/3 of a grade level, e.g. from a B to a B-. The difficult part, however, is not letting them cloud my perception of the paper to the point where they lower the grade more than that.
If the notion the two of you propose is common (and you a TA in English, FP, at the very place I got my Ph.D.), no wonder people who purportedly have an advanced education can't write.
Define "can't write." To my mind, being able to write involves a great deal more than producing texts that are free of surface errors. "Correct" English will get you nowhere at the college level if you can't identify your audience and modify your diction accordingly, formulate a complex argument, structure the paper so that your audience can follow your points, find and use appropriate supporting evidence, identify logical fallacies, and document your sources correctly. I've chosen* to focus on these other skills precisely because they tend to be the ones that high school teachers and the students themselves neglect. Most college freshmen tend to think of "good writing" in terms of proper grammar and spelling. If they are asked to critique a paper without further instruction, nearly all of their attention will be spent on correctness rather than organization or content. It's my job to get them to think about facets of their writing that they are not used to considering important.

*Actually, the choice isn't altogether mine -- UNC's writing program officially de-emphasizes grammar instruction because research suggests that it doesn't improve students' writing -- but I happen to agree with the party line on this issue (and believe me, that doesn't happen often). If you feel like writing any angry letters to the Alumni Association about this, let me know how it goes :)

[Brynda]

Originally posted by Phlosphr
- I have never given a paper back after receiving the final draft and made a student correct it and resubmit it. My students have enough on their minds, they don't need a surly psych prof to deal with as well.
- If you don't teach students both you are failing them huh?
So I am failing my abnormal psych class which consists mainly of juniors? Haven't they had enough grammar lessons if they are a junior?
- If you'd like to agree to disagree that is fine. But the converse of your last statement happens to be my point here. I am here to teach all facets of psychology to students attending my classes. I do not want to waste time giving them a grammar lesson when I need to be teaching them how to calculate Chi Square! I do not know your teaching methods, but my methodology speaks for itself through my students grades.

1. I mananged to have require that students write well (considering both content and grammar) without surliness. YMMV, of course. I do not know your teaching methods, but the teaching awards I won speak for themselves.

2. I disagree that undergraduate juniors have had enough grammer lessons. If they are making errors, they clearly have not learned enough. Yes, you are teaching content, but if you are grading papers (not exams), you need to help them correct their errors, IMHO. Mere years of education do not ensure knowing how to write, as is obvious from this very thread.

3. Since you determine your students' grades, that logic is a bit circular. As you know, students' grades are a function of what they learn *and* the grading system used. If you are an easy grader, your students seem to do well. A better measure would be the percentage who are accepted to reputable graduate schools. At least at the schools I attended and to which my undergradates were accepted, a good grasp of writing was required.

[Brynda]

Originally posted by Fretful Porpentine
I do. In my comp class, surface errors can lower a student's grade by 1/3 of a grade level, e.g. from a B to a B-. The difficult part, however, is not letting them cloud my perception of the paper to the point where they lower the grade more than that.

Define "can't write." To my mind, being able to write involves a great deal more than producing texts that are free of surface errors. "Correct" English will get you nowhere at the college level if you can't identify your audience and modify your diction accordingly, formulate a complex argument, structure the paper so that your audience can follow your points, find and use appropriate supporting evidence, identify logical fallacies, and document your sources correctly. I've chosen* to focus on these other skills precisely because they tend to be the ones that high school teachers and the students themselves neglect. Most college freshmen tend to think of "good writing" in terms of proper grammar and spelling. If they are asked to critique a paper without further instruction, nearly all of their attention will be spent on correctness rather than organization or content. It's my job to get them to think about facets of their writing that they are not used to considering important.

*Actually, the choice isn't altogether mine -- UNC's writing program officially de-emphasizes grammar instruction because research suggests that it doesn't improve students' writing -- but I happen to agree with the party line on this issue (and believe me, that doesn't happen often). If you feel like writing any angry letters to the Alumni Association about this, let me know how it goes :)

Ah, Fretful Porpentine, you and I don't disagree as much as may appear on the surface. You *do* mark errors in grammar and spelling and the errors do affect the grade. That's all I am advocating. I certainly also agree with you that good writing is more than correct grammar and spelling. I just believe that it has to start there; if something is so poorly written that the content can't be deciphered, then how do you assess the organization of the paper, logical fallacies, et cetera? Phlophr seems to be proposing that college professors should just ignore anything but content, which I think is wrong. First of all, I don't see how you can decipher content in a badly written paper (again, I am not talking about spelling errors alone, but the type of error I pointed out above from the OP), and secondly, I think it is everyone's responsibility. If students are only learning to write in English composition classes, no wonder they can't write. I am interested in the research you mentioned. If grammar classes don't help, what does?

And I am not writing the Alumni Association anything. They will just ask for money. :)

[Larry Mudd]

Hee hee.

Phlosphr grasps his grammer.

Dirty little boy.

[Phlosphr]

Phlophr seems to be proposing that college professors should just ignore anything but content, which I think is wrong.

Yay! My lucidity threshold has been reached. I started this thread as a farce, illustrating a minor glitch in my imperfect self. I did not propose that college profs should ignore anything but content...Thats absurd. Of course I have asked a student to clear up points and to not spell Freud, Froid. I hate using absolutes as I did in my last post. I should not have said 'never', but come on now. I'm a Psych Prof, not an english prof. And I'm simply not as critical a teacher as you may have been, or still are? And above all, my students like me because I am a good teacher, and I'm fun! My lectures are not only fun, but my methodology is such that I challenge their brain to ask questions, and challenge their charactor to stand by what they believe. We are preparing them to go out into a veritable concrete jungle you know. It's scary out there, and there are waay too many college grads with more knowledge of mixing a drink for someone than knowledge about how to balance a check book. I could care less abut dotting your j's or 'i' before 'e' except after 'c'. A bigger picture of how to understand life is more important to me.

[dalovindj]

I could care less . . .This should be "couldn't care less". . .

DaLovin' Dj

Sorry, I couldn't resist!

[Oy!]

Originally posted by Phlosphr
Yay! ... We are preparing them to go out into a veritable concrete jungle you know. It's scary out there, and there are waay too many college grads with more knowledge of mixing a drink for someone than knowledge about how to balance a check book. I could care less abut dotting your j's or 'i' before 'e' except after 'c'. A bigger picture of how to understand life is more important to me.

That concrete jungle is, IMO, precisely why spelling and, more importantly, grammar need to be precise. Regardless of what standards exist in college, people in the real world judge all the time on the basis of superficial criteria. Your students are highly likely to be judged on the basis of both, if not professionally, certainly personally.

This may make me a terrible person, but when I see people who consistently mix up they're, there, and their or your and you're or put apostrophes in plurals, I will tend to take their point less seriously. They are demonstrating ignorance in front of my eyes, and that degrades their credibility. Even the lay and lie confusion, which seems to have become so widespread that most people don't seem to have a clue that there is any confusion, not only sets my teeth on edge, but makes me question the educational level of the source.

Phlosphr, spell checkers and the memorization of a few simple rules to distinguish homonyms take care of most of the spelling problem. Write the rules down if you can't remember them (including the rule no apostrophes in plurals or verbs). When your students turn in work done on a computer that hasn't had these simple measures applied, they are telling you that they don't take the work seriously. As for grammar, that's harder, but far more important. A student who wants to succeed in any traditional field needs to understand that s/he will be judged on his or her grammar to some extent, and may be written off by the stodgy oldsters who control his or her future if that grammar is sub-par. Those judges may have no idea why they don't think John Doe is quite the right person, because the process is generally something that takes place beneath the surface level of thought. I don't particularly want to judge people on grammar myself, but I know that I do.

Substance is crucial, of course, but the devil is in those superficial details. Why would anyone choose to look ignorant if it's easily avoided?

[Oy!]

Of course, proof reading is never 100%, is it? :o That should read:



Those judges may have no idea why they don't think John Doe is not quite the right person


:smack:

[Zenster]

At least you have the ostiones to admit it, chum. In recent weeks you managed to post some dilles, even a misspelled thread title or two. In your particular case I'll abandon the thorny shrub-like limb and taunt you instead:

[size=8]I

[Zenster]

I GOT TO GO TO BURNING MAN AND YOU DIDN'T!

NEINER, NEINER, NEINER!

[Phlosphr]

Errr, burning man, errr, I'll burn something for ya, errr

I hope you got sunburn.

Kidding. :)

Well old dogs can learn new tricks. Maybe I'll slow down a little and look before I hit submit!