Colorado School Shooting

Grim topic people. But I want input from an intelligent crowd. What caused it? Guns? Bad parenting? Racism? Nazism? No decent & available school mental health program? Do we need mandatory mental health screening in our schools? Talk to me people.

What caused the shooting?

Well, obviously, it's that VIOLENT game with lots of BOMBS and stuff in it. What's the name again...

Oh yeah. Minesweeper.

More than anything else, it is the easy access to guns that lead to this sort of thing. Sure, the bombs could have caused many more deaths, but chances are they never would have brought in any bombs if they didn't have guns to make them feel like tough guys in the first place.
And this is just my opinion, I have nothing on hand to back this claim up.
I am however a little alarmed how quickly that great Satan the internet is brought up by the politicans and news readers. I'm unsure how many deaths are directly related to surfing the web, but the numbers of deaths caused by guns is staggering. I was also somewhat amused by the number of talking heads who described the teen killers as ....behaving like teens! Mood swings, depression, feelings of alienation. Oh my! <br.Clearly the answer we need is more controls on teens. Random searches, rounding of groups of misfits and jail time for loners. And it will be easier to push that through Congress than any intelligent gun control bill.

.Clearly the answer we need is more controls on teens. Random searches, rounding of groups of misfits and jail time for loners. And it will be easier to push that through Congress than any intelligent gun control bill.

I have to wonder about the shooter's families. How could the boys buy the guns and ammo, and plot this without their families knowing? I presume they kept the guns and ammo at their homes.

What kind of families did they come from? I saw the shooters' homes on TV and they lived in nice, upper middle class neighborhoods. I wonder what their parents do for a living, and if the shooters had sisters/brothers?

Actually...

I'm firmly of the belief that what caused the first well-known incident of this kind was simple insanity... the second well-known incident of this kind by a lesser portion of insanity fueled by media sensationalism... and so on down the line.

The next time this happens, I am more than content at this point to lay 100% of the blame on the media (although I'll specifically exclude from blame whichever daily in Chicago deliberately opted to run the story on page three rather than on the front page).

Seriously, I don't hold the written press particularly accountable; this was certainly a tragedy that needed reporting. Where I really reserve my ire is the scum-sucking producers of the daily tabloid and talk shows, which do more to plant ideas like this in weakened heads than any movie, comic book, video game, or musical artist could ever dream of.

If we, as a society, are desensitized to violence and other tawdry afflictions of the spirit, you can really look no further for an answer than Hard Copy, Inside Edition, A Current Affair, Jerry Springer... These programs have made pop-culture icons of pathetic fools like Tonya Harding, Amy Fisher, the Bobbitts, David Koresh, and lots of other people who, frankly, didn't deserve the attention.

The only bad publicity, after all, is NO publicity.


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~jon

Man, can I kill a thread, or what?


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~jon

I heard that yesterday, May 18, in 1927 some man in Michigan killed about 30 kids and a couple of adults in a school, then killed himself. He set off dynamite in the school building. I think he was a school board member and angry about local tax increases for schools. What a nut!

So, school violence is not all that new. This sounds worse than the Colorado shootings last month. Although, we are experiencing an outbreak of shootings by students, so it is different.

Man, can I kill a thread, or what?
This one was (brain) dead from the very beginning, Jon. I hereby resolve to flame every single cretin who posts mundane, pointless drivel in what should be a forum for people with an axe to grind.

Pansy-assed hand-wringing belongs in MPSIMS.

As to the CO shootings, GET OVER IT, assholes!

I agree this topic probably belonged in MPSIMS, but you are wrong saying 'Get over it'. This is a current topic with a lot to discuss. It is still headline news. Clinton is visiting Colorado to meet with the victims' relatives today, a month after it happened. School shootings and bomb threats have become a national crisis. The nation will be talking about this tragedy for years, Nickrz. Better get used to it, asshole.

Emotionally stable adults will not be talking about it for years. Professional hand-wringers, anyone who can make a buck off it, and idiots such as yourself will be. Get thee to MPSIMS where you belong, lest I bring the full force to my intellect to bear on thee, cur.

Heh-heh. ..full force of my intellect.. (snicker)

I would have to agree that media does play a big role... remember all those students across the country getting suspended for talking about blowing up their school or shooting after the columbine incident? Maybe they thought they could instill fear among other students or in some twisted way get respect. I dont know the reasons behind the shooting, like most teens, the smallest problem can seem too much to bear(suicide) maybe they wanted fame, thinking they couldnt live up to expectations, maybe they thought they could make their mark, a true urban legend. What I was pissed about was the police, there I was watching the whole thing unfold on TV... officers just going around the building, looking and wasting time, in my opinion. Those kids just went in and started shooting, the were not taking hostages, just going on a terminator-style rampage. If I was the first officer on the scene, I would have IMMEDIATELY went into the school and stopped those two.(yes, with force if neccessary) I noticed how the officials didnt "catch" the suspects until AFTER they killed themselves, it is so vital to get in there as fast as possible in that situation, I would gaurantee more lives would have been saved, I would much rather have them target me, (with weapon) than helpless students.

Nickrz: If you're gonna paraphrase Shakespeare, credit him. And your wit would be hard pressed to crush a mosquito. " Away, Parasite!"--Ben Johnson's "Volpone"

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What I was pissed about was the police, there I was watching the whole thing unfold on TV... officers just going around the building, looking and wasting time, in my opinion. Those kids just went in and started shooting, the were not taking hostages, just going on a terminator-style rampage. If I was the first officer on the scene, I would have IMMEDIATELY went into the school and stopped those two.(yes, with force if neccessary) I noticed how the officials didnt "catch" the suspects until AFTER they killed themselves, it is so vital to get in there as fast as possible in that situation, I would gaurantee more lives would have been saved, I would much rather have them target me, (with weapon) than helpless students.

Neobican: you used far too many words to say "I, Neobican, haven't a clue as to what I'm talking about."

And exactly how were the police supposed to know exactly what was happening inside? How would the police be of assistance if they got themselves killed at the outset?

And, FTR, the expression is "I would have immediately gone into the school."

Who the heck cares? Isn't that their job? They have body armor, etc., I can't believe that two little shitheads got to wipe out all those innocent kids without a fight from the police. I wonder why the powers that be are so willing to send in troops/whoever to be killed in military conflicts--but when it comes to something like this-PLEASE! If the police are too afraid then they should give the parents their stuff and then we'll see.

Popokis: you seem to be forgetting about the bombs those two killers had placed in the building. It takes more time to safely disarm and remove a bomb than it does to detonate the thing.

And exactly how were the police supposed to know exactly what was happening inside? How would the police be of assistance if they got themselves killed at the outset?

Good point Monty!

Neobican, what a brilliant idea. Let's send armed cops barging into a situation that is unclear except for the fact that one or more unknown assailants are shooting the place up.

Can I assume that you would defend their actions had they stormed into the school, shooting a few innocent kids, setting off a couple of bombs (killing a few more innocent kids), and getting themselves killed (how much help is a dead cop)?

It always amazes me that there are those who sit back in their cozy little office jobs and pretend to be experts on the SWAT job description.

These were trained professionals who handled the situation correctly and probably saved a few lives by strategical tactics and the lack of Rambo-style stupidity.

There is a reason they are SWAT team members and a reason you are not. Let's keep it that way, m'kay?



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KITTEN

He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius

Neobican: you used far too many words to say "I, Neobican, haven't a clue as to what I'm talking about."

Oh really? Were you in my living room? I WATCHED IT HAPPEN LIVE ON TV.

And exactly how were the police supposed to know exactly what was happening inside?

Hello! McFly! If the police had no clue what was going on inside, why were they there in the first place?

How would the police be of assistance if they got themselves killed at the outset?


Another stupid question - It is their job to protect innocents from gun-weilding maniacs. They are trained for it, and have the weapons for it. They are to enforce the law, one of which is that it is illegal to kill people. Like I said, if I was there, I would rather they try to target me, one who can defend/attack than helpless students.

Good point Monty!

NO, it was not.

Neobican, what a brilliant idea. Let's send armed cops barging into a situation that is unclear except for the fact that one or more unknown assailants are shooting the place up. Can I assume that you would defend their actions had they stormed into the school, shooting a few innocent kids, setting off a couple of bombs (killing a few more innocent kids), and getting themselves killed (how much help is a dead cop)?

How can you be so sure trained cops/swat team is going to shoot innocent kids? The bad guys are the guys WITH THE GUNS. Those kids were not on the lookout for cops, they were not taking hostages, they were randomly shooting! With all the walls and rooms, there should have been enough cover for officers, aiding in their defense. Again, I would rather the gunmen focus on me, not students.

These were trained professionals who handled the situation correctly and probably saved a few lives by strategical tactics and the lack of Rambo-style stupidity.

OH REALLY?? Saved lives??? Get a clue!!! THEY FOUND THE GUNMEN DEAD! How did they save lives by waiting until they commited suicide? Did ya think they might come back from the dead to squeeze off a few more rounds?

There is a reason they are SWAT team members and a reason you are not.

Gee, thats too bad. If I was there, lives would have been saved because I would not have allowed them to shoot any more innocents BEFORE THEY SHOT THEMSELVES. This whole affair was a piss-poor example of police action, all they can do now is learn from it.

Neobican: you used far too many words to say "I, Neobican, haven't a clue as to what I'm talking about." Monty
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Oh really? Were you in my living room? I WATCHED IT HAPPEN LIVE ON TV.

Oh well, golly gee I guess that makes all of us experts. At least those of us who watched it on the TV.

You still don't have a clue.

And exactly how were the police supposed to know exactly what was happening inside?
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Hello! McFly! If the police had no clue what was going on inside, why were they there in the first place?

Well let's see. . . . Could it be the fact that they were called to the school for a multiple shooting/hostage situation??? Go figure.

Hello? McDoofus? They knew someone or a couple of someones were in that school shooting the place up but they did not know who or how many or the situation, but hell, let's just blast our way into the building blindly and hopefully figure out the target once we are inside.

How would the police be of assistance if they got themselves killed at the outset?-Monty
**************
Another stupid question - It is their job to protect innocents from gun-weilding maniacs. They are trained for it, and have the weapons for it. They are to enforce the law, one of which is that it is illegal to kill people. Like I said, if I was there, I would rather they try to target me, one who can defend/attack than helpless students.

No, another stupid quote. It is their job to protect innocents from gun-welding maniacs and if you had a clue, you would understand that "protecting innocents" involves more than a shoot 'em up Rambo-fest. It involves learning what type of situation they are faced with and then planning strategic maneuvers to handle the situation intelligently.

Besides, you will never "be there" because people like you are dangerous and screened out in the process of hiring SWAT members.

Good point Monty!
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NO, it was not.

Oh, yes it was.

Neobican, what a brilliant idea. Let's send armed cops barging into a situation that is unclear except for the fact that one or more unknown assailants are shooting the place up. Can I assume that you would defend their actions had they stormed into the school, shooting a few innocent kids, setting off a couple of bombs (killing a few more innocent kids), and getting themselves killed (how much help is a dead cop)?- Me
************
How can you be so sure trained cops/swat team is going to shoot innocent kids? The bad guys are the guys WITH THE GUNS. Those kids were not on the lookout for cops, they were not taking hostages, they were randomly shooting! With all the walls and rooms, there should have been enough cover for officers, aiding in their defense. Again, I would rather the gunmen focus on me, not students.

Yeah, that would be intelligent. Send the SWAT team shooting into a schoolful of hundreds of panicking kids running in pandemonium, not knowing who the gunman(men) are or if there are hostages who could be put into jeopardy. Or better yet, how about the SWAT team inadvertently setting off one of the explosives and wiping a few dozen kids out with the explosion?

These are things that need to be learned BEFORE you burst into that type of situation.

Again, you will never "be there" to put yourself in the line of fire.

These were trained professionals who handled the situation correctly and probably saved a few lives by strategical tactics and the lack of Rambo-style stupidity.- Me
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OH REALLY?? Saved lives??? Get a clue!!! THEY FOUND THE GUNMEN DEAD! How did they save lives by waiting until they commited suicide? Did ya think they might come back from the dead to squeeze off a few more rounds?

No, you get a clue. Had the SWAT members stormed into that school blindly, more kids could have been killed by cross-fire or explosives.

If the SWAT members used your backassward logic, you can rest assured that the news broadcasts in the days following the tragedy would have include interviews and investigations as to why so many more lives were lost due to the negligence of the SWAT team.

There is a reason they are SWAT team members and a reason you are not.- Me
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Gee, thats too bad. If I was there, lives would have been saved because I would not have allowed them to shoot any more innocents BEFORE THEY SHOT THEMSELVES. This whole affair was a piss-poor example of police action, all they can do now is learn from it.

Can I ask where you get your experience other than the experience you derive sitting on your ass in the Lazyboy watching Diehard movies?

Yet again, you will never "be there".

Please tell me you are NOT a gun owner, please?


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&gt;^,,^&lt;
KITTEN

He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius

I don't want to be an armchair quarteback, but you can't argue that the SWAT team did their job that day. For all practical purposes they could have stayed at home and let the bomb squad and the coroner handle it.

I'm sure, in hindsight, those very officers have identifyed their mistakes and are taking actions that will let them handle similar situations better in the future.

Diane & Monty:

It's prep school know-it-alls like you who get shot up in the hallway by misunderstood people. Instead of trying to pass your so-called understanding of society and police procedure off as factual, perhaps you should shut up, sit down, and WATCH the news, READ the papers and LISTEN to people who know what they are talking about.

It's prep school know-it-alls like you who get shot up in the hallway by misunderstood people. Instead of trying to pass your so-called understanding of society and police procedure off as factual, perhaps you should shut up, sit down, and WATCH the news, READ the papers and LISTEN to people who know what they are talking about.

Well dipshit, I do WATCH the news, I do READ the papers, and I do LISTEN (writing in uppercase is fun - WHOOP-T-DOO!!!) and if you would shut the hell up, sit down, and follow your own advice, you might (Keyword: might) figure out the definition of "people who know what they are talking about" does not equate to some armchair, Lazyboy sitting, 5 o'clock news watching, so called "expert". (I'm still waiting patiently for Neobican's crededials.)

I tend to listen to the "experts". You know, like the officials who are ACTUALLY TRAINED (uppercase really IS fun!) in this sort of thing.

BTW - being the TV "expert" that you are, did you happen to see other law enforcement agencies from around the country defending the way the cops in Colorado handled the situation?

Maybe you and Neobican could sorta, maybe, like, you know, start your own SWAT school or something. Ya think?


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KITTEN

He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius

It's prep school know-it-alls like you who get shot up in the hallway by misunderstood people. - Chris

Could you elaborate a little bit on the above statement?

Are you implying that victims of this type of violence are somehow deserving of their death or injury because they are "prep school know-it-alls"?

Please explain.


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KITTEN

He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius

Here at the SDMB people ask for: Answers, advice, and opinions. In my original post I stated I did not think the police did their job. This is true now as it was then. Monty and Diane (instead of posting their own view) have taken it upon themselves to bash me, Diane apparently making it a personal crusade going so far as to call me names and assume my lifestyle. You do not know me, but you started this and have called out, now I will finish it and put you back into your place.

Oh well, golly gee I guess that makes all of us experts. At least those of us who watched it on the TV.

It sure does! By personally viewing police action live, and hearing the reports it is a fact they did not enter the building until the gunmen had killed themselves, making the "situation" too damn late. That is incompetence plain and simple.

Hello? McDoofus? They knew someone or a couple of someones were in that school shooting the place up but they did not know who or how many or the situation, but hell, let's just blast our way into the building blindly and hopefully figure out the target once we are inside.

You said it almost perfectly, without the die hard approach of course. You said yourself, they did not know WHO or HOW MANY. You will not get this information sitting on your ass OUTSIDE the building, you have to go INSIDE, which, they did not do. This statement shows how much you know about diffusing a crisis - nothing. You do not blast your way in, you cover your teammates and enter the building quietly, keeping cover in doorways and such. Police have ears, so it would not be too hard to locate a bad guy firing a gun. You advance (still keeping cover)until you are in range and command the suspect to drop his weapon and lie down on the floor, etc. If he obeys the officer its a smart move, if he does not and makes ANY other movement, he gets shot. Either way, situation over, more lives saved.

No, another stupid quote. It is their job to protect innocents from gun-welding maniacs and if you had a clue, you would understand that "protecting innocents" involves more than a shoot 'em up Rambo-fest. It involves learning what type of situation they are faced with and then planning strategic maneuvers to handle the situation intelligently.

Besides, you will never "be there" because people like you are dangerous and screened out in the process of hiring SWAT members.

Again, that information can only be obtained by going inside the building. I believe it is you that watch too many movies, not once did I say they should have blasted in there like Rambo, but somehow this is the picture you get. You say I will never "be there" and that I am dangerous. You dont know me, so you will never know if I am "there" and rest assured, I wont sit on my ass. You call me dangerous, which has to be the most idiotic thing to say concerning my entire postings. I am for taking action and SAVING lives, are you even reading my words, or is it that you do not comprehend? Yes it is dangerous to go inside a situation like that, but it is also necessary. I suppose its much safer to wait outside until its over.

Oh, yes it was.

Face it, those points were as sharp as bowling balls. The answer is still no.

Yeah, that would be intelligent. Send the SWAT team shooting into a schoolful of hundreds of panicking kids running in pandemonium, not knowing who the gunman(men) are or if there are hostages who could be put into jeopardy. Or better yet, how about the SWAT team inadvertently setting off one of the explosives and wiping a few dozen kids out with the explosion?

These are things that need to be learned BEFORE you burst into that type of situation.

Again, you will never "be there" to put yourself in the line of fire.

Why do you make the same stupid excuse? For the third time, you have to go in the building for that information.

No, you get a clue. Had the SWAT members stormed into that school blindly, more kids could have been killed by cross-fire or explosives.

If the SWAT members used your backassward logic, you can rest assured that the news broadcasts in the days following the tragedy would have include interviews and investigations as to why so many more lives were lost due to the negligence of the SWAT team.

More kids could have been killed in a crossfire?? Not likely to happen, I am sure 4 or 5 heavily armed men would get their attention. The SWAT team has already proven its negligence by not acting.

Can I ask where you get your experience other than the experience you derive sitting on your ass in the Lazyboy watching Diehard movies?

Yet again, you will never "be there".

Please tell me you are NOT a gun owner, please?

This whole affair is based on common sense which the police lack. You seem to think it was handled professionally and you accept and commend the officials. Fine, thats your view, I DO NOT think the lives of 13 students is acceptable, NOT EVEN 1 is acceptable. I think the police botched it, you dont need to pounce and call me names, next time just say "I thought they did great" My view is just as good as yours, but your posting forced me to come back. And by the way, I do own several guns, and unlike the Colorado Police, I know how to use mine. On a final note: I am a parent, and like the parents of the victims, I am disgusted with the way it was handled, the truth is more could have been saved. If you are a parent, why can you not see how important that is? Based on your views it sounds as if it was your child that was gunned down in cold blood, you would thank god that no officers "barged in" to save your child, because you would hate to see the officer get hurt. Why dont you put your argumentative energy into a worthwhile cause, this is already over and the only thing that can be done is for the police to learn what they can do to prevent it from happening again. Save the name calling for your husband, if you are married.

PapaBear
Member posted 06-02-99 10:03 AM
I don't want to be an armchair quarteback, but you can't argue that the SWAT team did their job that day. For all practical purposes they could have stayed at home and let the bomb squad and the coroner handle it.

Here's why I'm arguing that tahe SWAT folks did their job that day: it's quite likely the only reason those kids killed themselves before taking out the entire school was becasue the SWAT was there.

I'm sure, in hindsight, those very officers have identifyed their mistakes and are taking actions that will let them handle similar situations better in the future.

Actually, the police and the military "debrief" each and every battle/shooting situation. That's for a few of reasons: (1) To identify better ways of doing it in the future, (2) saving lives, and (3) identifying mistakes of both the good guys and the bad guys.

I don't want to be an armchair quarteback

Then don't be.


Oh, and Diane; drat! You gave every single response I was going to! ;) I do appreciate it, btw.

Cheers!
-Chip

Why do you make the same stupid excuse? For the third time, you have to go in the
building for that information.

Or, you know, get it from people who have observed the situation and left the building safely while the situation is ongoing, as in hostage situations.

Or, you know, get it from people who have observed the situation and left the building safely while the situation is ongoing, as in hostage situations.

But Phil, not only would that make too much sense, it would take all the fun out of it.


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KITTEN

He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius

quote:
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Or, you know, get it from people who have observed the situation and left the building safely while the situation is ongoing, as in hostage situations.
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But Phil, not only would that make too much sense, it would take all the fun out of it.

Hey, I resent that--I've been accused of being a lot of things, but "sensible" has never been one of them!!

Here at the SDMB people ask for: Answers, advice, and opinions. In my original post I stated I did not think the police did their job. This is true now as it was then. Monty and Diane (instead of posting their own view) have taken it upon themselves to bash me, Diane apparently making it a personal crusade going so far as to call me names and assume my lifestyle.

This is the BBQ Pit. If it is too hot for you, don't let the door hit you in the ass. . . . .

You do not know me, but you started this and have called out, now I will finish it and put you back into your place.

Excuse me sir, but I am posting my own views, and those views are that you are one of the small group of idiots who emerged soon after the Columbine shooting to state your unqualified, untrained, "expertise". It's amazing how people like you crawl from the woodwork soon after a tragic event.

Sitting in front of the TV watching a live news report does not make you an authority.

Oh yeah, it will take more than the likes of you to put me in anyplace, let alone, my own. But knock yourself out.

It sure does! By personally viewing police action live, and hearing the reports it is a fact they did not enter the building until the gunmen had killed themselves, making the "situation" too damn late. That is incompetence plain and simple.

No, it sure doesn't. If you feel that watching a live report on the TV makes you a SWAT expert, then you truly are an idiot.

You said it almost perfectly, without the die hard approach of course. You said yourself, they did not know WHO or HOW MANY. You will not get this information sitting on your ass OUTSIDE the building, you have to go INSIDE, which, they did not do. This statement shows how much you know about diffusing a crisis - nothing. You do not blast your way in, you cover your teammates and enter the building quietly, keeping cover in doorways and such. Police have ears, so it would not be too hard to locate a bad guy firing a gun. You advance (still keeping cover)until you are in range and command the suspect to drop his weapon and lie down on the floor, etc. If he obeys the officer its a smart move, if he does not and makes ANY other movement, he gets shot. Either way, situation over, more lives saved.

No, you talk to witnesses who were in the building or who know of the situation, you learn what and who you are dealing with, you find out what part of the building the shooter is in, you determine if there are explosives involved and where they may be located, you assess the situation to determine if more lives may be in danger by a SWAT team storming into the building. You map out a strategic plan that is organized and effective.

In other words, you use your head, not your macho-mentality.

Again, that information can only be obtained by going inside the building. I believe it is you that watch too many movies, not once did I say they should have blasted in there like Rambo, but somehow this is the picture you get. You say I will never "be there" and that I am dangerous. You dont know me, so you will never know if I am "there" and rest assured, I wont sit on my ass. You call me dangerous, which has to be the most idiotic thing to say concerning my entire postings. I am for taking action and SAVING lives, are you even reading my words, or is it that you do not comprehend? Yes it is dangerous to go inside a situation like that, but it is also necessary. I suppose its much safer to wait outside until its over.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that there are ways to learn what is happening in the building without rushing the place?

It is safer to wait outside until you know what and who you are dealing with. Until then, the cops do not know if their presence may cause hostages to be killed as the suspect panics or if they may set off boobie traps or bombs that kill even more victims.

Face it, those points were as sharp as bowling balls. The answer is still no.

:::sigh:::

You just don't get it, do ya.

Why do you make the same stupid excuse? For the third time, you have to go in the building for that information.

Because you can not comprehend that this information is better learned by talking to witnesses, etc., than by blasting into a building without knowing facts.

More kids could have been killed in a crossfire?? Not likely to happen, I am sure 4 or 5 heavily armed men would get their attention. The SWAT team has already proven its negligence by not acting.

Had the SWAT team gone in immediately, before knowing who or what they were dealing with, into a school full of smoke, water from the fire system, and frantically running kids, the possibility of a SWAT team member accidentally shooting an innocent kid or setting off an explosive is highly possible.

This whole affair is based on common sense which the police lack. You seem to think it was handled professionally and you accept and commend the officials. Fine, thats your view, I DO NOT think the lives of 13 students is acceptable, NOT EVEN 1 is acceptable. I think the police botched it, you dont need to pounce and call me names, next time just say "I thought they did great"

I agree, even 1 life is too many, however, if you paid attention to the news reports as you claim, you will know that most of those shot were hit within the first few minutes of the attack. You're right, 13 is tragic, but no one, SWAT team or you, Mr. Rambo, could have saved those kids. Most were shot or dead before the cops received the first call.

. And by the way, I do own several guns

Scary!

On a final note: I am a parent, and like the parents of the victims, I am disgusted with the way it was handled, the truth is more could have been saved. If you are a parent, why can you not see how important that is? Based on your views it sounds as if it was your child that was gunned down in cold blood, you would thank god that no officers "barged in" to save your child, because you would hate to see the officer get hurt.

Yes, I am a parent, three times over. I have two teenagers and an 8 year old. Don't preach to me how it feels to be a parent or how I would want the cops to react if one of my kids were in that situation.

I've been there, have you?

FYI - Two years ago during lunch hour an armed boy jumped onto the stage that is located in the lunchroom at my daughter's school. He fired off a couple of rounds into the ceiling and began shouting suicidal threats that included the statement that he "wasn't going alone". Most of the kids who were eating lunch at the time escaped, but a dozen or so remained hostage for a couple of hours. My daughter was one of those hostages as were a couple of her best friends. If you think I am full of shit, trying doing a web archive search for any newspaper in Northern Utah (try Deseret News, Salt Lake Tribune, or Ogden Standard Examiner). The name of the school is Syracuse Jr. High, located in Syracuse, Utah. If I find the article, I will post it for you. I don't know if my daughter's name will be included in the archives (it was in one newspaper article) but her name is Christine.

Believe me or not, I couldn't care less.

The

Hey, I resent that--I've been accused of being a lot of things, but "sensible" has never been one of them!!

Sorry, I keep forgetting. :)




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&gt;^,,^&lt;
KITTEN

He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius

and that is the way the assess a situation intelligently instead of barging in blindly.

You know, there is a reason why they follow there tactics as opposed to yours. Let the experts do their job and you just scoot alone - moi'

1 - the way THEY assess a situation. . .
2 - they follow THEIR tactics as. . . .
3 - you just scoot ALONG. . .

Gawd, I feel anal today.

Since you are not a SWAT team member, you have no credentials to back up your side either. The whole point is that was the biggest tragedy I have seen in a long time. I sincerly believe that if they would have went in there ASAP more students would have been saved. I feel the cops waited too long, and no amount of name calling on your part will change my mind.

Save the name calling for your husband, if you are married.
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Nope, not married, but sorry, you aren't my type.

That was NOT a proposal, so do not flatter yourself.

I do not care what you think or what you say, I have sufficently responded to your posting enough, the pit is not too "hot" for me, I just did not think your immature words were necessary. Since it is obvious neither of us are going to understand the other, this discussion has no reason to continue. Next time we debate on something, leave the playground tactics at school.

Diane, my posting was mostly a blunt version of what Contestant #3 said more intelligently up at the top of the board.

Somehow, what could have been a reasonably intelligent debate turned into a ridiculous episode of "Hey, let's pick on the new kid!" Only in this instance, the new kid is represented by Neobican, a guy whose opinions differ from yours. MUCH LIKE the kids who finally got tired of the taunting at Columbine and couldn't come to any conclusion more reasonable to them than to kill the "jocks" who they believed had made their lives hell. That is precisely what I meant when I said what I did. If you could act like the adult that you claim to be, I'd almost be inclined to call you an intelligent person. Fact is, all three of you (You, Monty & Neo) seem to be relatively intelligent people, but to continue on with the same silly "I'm better than you" game that teenagers play (and seemingly die from as a result) doesn't make me want to be on your side, it doesn't make me want to try and see things from your point of view. Of the three of you, the only person who's managed to keep a cool head and debate with any amount of integrity and class is Neobican. I suggest everyone who's followed along on this should just scroll back up and read Contestant #3's post at the top again. It's the only one that's relevant to the topic presented in the first place.

Oh,and, P.S. Diane... Since I doubt that you were there live and in person, you really can't belittle Neo for basing his judgements on what he witnessed on his TV screen, considering that is exactly how you based yours. "Sitting in front of the TV watching a live news report does not make you an authority", you said. So what made you an authority? Forget it. Don't answer. I really don't care to know.

Diane -

Strategical tactics?

Since you are not a SWAT team member, you have no credentials to back up your side either. The whole point is that was the biggest tragedy I have seen in a long time. I sincerly believe that if they would have went in there ASAP more students would have been saved. I feel the cops waited too long, and no amount of name calling on your part will change my mind [/qoute]

No. See, the difference between your side and my side is that you are giving your own, unexperienced opinion of how things should have been handled. I am merely backing the actions of those who actually have experience and knowledge.

See the difference?

[quote]That was NOT a proposal, so do not flatter yourself.

Then why the interest in my marital status, ye who doesn't throw low blows? (You still aren't my type.)

I do not care what you think or what you say, I have sufficently responded to your posting enough, the pit is not too "hot" for me, I just did not think your immature words were necessary. Since it is obvious neither of us are going to understand the other, this discussion has no reason to continue. Next time we debate on something, leave the playground tactics at school.

The next time you make such blatantly stupid statements such as:

"What I was pissed about was the police, there I was watching the whole thing unfold on TV... officers just going around the building, looking and wasting time, in my opinion. Those kids just went in and started shooting, the were not taking hostages, just going on a terminator-style rampage. If I was the first officer on the scene, I would have IMMEDIATELY went into the school and stopped those two.(yes, with force if neccessary) I noticed how the officials didnt "catch" the suspects until AFTER they killed themselves, it is so vital to get in there as fast as possible in that situation, I would gaurantee more lives would have been saved, I would much rather have them target me, (with weapon) than helpless students."

. . .be prepared for backlash. If you can't handle the responses, then maybe you are posting on the wrong board. Either grow a firmer spine or stay out of the BBQ Pit.

Simple.



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&gt;^,,^&lt;
KITTEN

He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius

Diane, my posting was mostly a blunt version of what Contestant #3 said more intelligently up at the top of the board.
Somehow, what could have been a reasonably intelligent debate turned into a ridiculous episode of "Hey, let's pick on the new kid!" Only in this instance, the new kid is represented by Neobican, a guy whose opinions differ from yours. MUCH LIKE the kids who finally got tired of the taunting at Columbine and couldn't come to any conclusion more reasonable to them than to kill the "jocks" who they believed had made their lives hell. That is precisely what I meant when I said what I did. If you could act like the adult that you claim to be, I'd almost be inclined to call you an intelligent person. Fact is, all three of you (You, Monty & Neo) seem to be relatively intelligent people, but to continue on with the same silly "I'm better than you" game that teenagers play (and seemingly die from as a result) doesn't make me want to be on your side, it doesn't make me want to try and see things from your point of view. Of the three of you, the only person who's managed to keep a cool head and debate with any amount of integrity and class is Neobican. I suggest everyone who's followed along on this should just scroll back up and read Contestant #3's post at the top again. It's the only one that's relevant to the topic presented in the first place.

If my disgust and impatience came across as being a big "meanie" then I apologize. Gawd, you guys would have been chewed up and spit out on the old AOL board.

Every time a national tragedy occurs, armchair quarterbacks crawl from the woodwork to loudly speak their uninformed, uneducated, and inexperienced opinions. Until you know what you are talking about and have some experience under your belt, don't begin to tell these guys how to do their job.

Isn't it curious that the only criticism has come from the "experts" without an ounce of experience? Every other law enforcement agency in the country has backed the officers involved in Colorado, 100 percent.

Most of the kids were already dead or dying before the cops even received the first call. Had they burst into the school as Neo suggests, they could have mistakenly shot more innocent kids or accidentally detonated an explosive killing more. It would not have saved those 13 people but instead taken more lives through their premature, blind actions. The SWAT members know this and are trained to react just as they did.

Oh,and, P.S. Diane... Since I doubt that you were there live and in person, you really can't belittle Neo for basing his judgments on what he witnessed on his TV screen, considering that is exactly how you based yours. "Sitting in front of the TV watching a live news report does not make you an authority", you said. So what made you an authority? Forget it. Don't answer. I really don't care to know.

No, I can belittle Neo. Watching a live television report does not make him an expert on anything.

I know this is a hard concept to comprehend, but I am not the one claiming to know more about the SWAT member job description than the actual SWAT member. Nope, that would be Neo. My guess would be, since he has yet to respond to my question, is that he has absolutely zilch experience in law enforcement. Therefore, that makes his criticism void.

I never once claimed to have any experience. I simple backed up the logical, safe, methods used by those who are qualified.


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&gt;^,,^&lt;
KITTEN

He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius

But....what CAUSED the shooting?

Not who did or didn't do it.....


Why?

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Daniel:

You ask that as though you expected a satisfying answer, or as though there was some identifiable chemical reaction that could force two young men to go berserk and kill a bunch of people. There isn't.

These boys were sick and miserable. They lost it and decided murder and suicide was their only choice. It was an irrational act by irrational, messed up kids, and there will never be a neat answer.



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Stoidela

Diane:

Just for the record, I'm behind you 100% on this. And maybe it's partly a gender thing, since my fiance tended toward the same reaction as Neo: "The SWAT team had guns, dammit! Why didn't they run in there and FIX IT!" Perhaps because it could have made things worse?

What baffles me is the logic underlying Neo's feelings on this. Is he thinking that the SWAT team is a bunch of candy-ass cowards unwilling to risk their own lives? That strikes me as completely absurd. "Hey, I'm a self-involved guy with a yellow streak a mile wide! I think I'll join the police department and work my way into the most dangerous assignment they've got! Yeah, that's the ticket!" And while it might be a remote possibility for one team member, they are going to be trained in the least effective method, they are going to choose the most cowardly and ineffective means of dealing with a crisis? Yeah, that makes a bunch of sense. Uh huh.

I'm just a regulah joe, and it seemed perfectly obvious to me that it would have been nuts to go storming into the school, and to do so would very likely have resulted in more death.



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Stoidela

This has gotten crazy, let me explain.

What baffles me is the logic underlying Neo's feelings on this. Is he thinking that the SWAT team is a bunch of candy-ass cowards unwilling to risk their own lives?

No way. I never said otherwise, I have a lot of respect for those guys. My whole thinking was if they went in sooner, more students might have been saved. The only problem here is that we would need a time machine to find out. We will never know. I was thinking that these postings have started to turn ugly, and they do not have to. Just understand that this is my opinion, nothing more.

No, I can belittle Neo. Watching a live television report does not make him an expert on anything.

You really do not have to belittle me, just post your own view.

I know this is a hard concept to comprehend, but I am not the one claiming to know more about the SWAT member job description than the actual SWAT member. Nope, that would be Neo. My guess would be, since he has yet to respond to my question, is that he has absolutely zilch experience in law enforcement. Therefore, that makes his criticism void.

Ok, this whole part is wrong. I never claimed to have more knowlege about SWAT procedure than the actual SWAT team. My criticism is just as valid as yours, only my view we will never know if that would come true. I say this because you do not need actual "expierence" to voice your opinion. I am not a clergyman, but I can say I do not believe in God and no one else would tell me that because I have no "expierence" in religion, I am not qualified to voice my religious beliefs. Thats just plain crazy. I mean, just because I am not a mechanic, does not mean I cannot fix my own car. I am a friendly person, and I would never purposely start an argument, but when others tell me that I dont know my own opinion,(sounds like an oxymoronic statement)I have to explain where I am coming from.

One last time: My comments on this subject is based on an "IF" and its IMHO. Just because you do not agree does not make it wrong. Much in the same way I will not criticize you in your views, beliefs, or opinions. This topic is not worth getting into a fight over, so will make no further posts on this thread. All I was asking for (and I probably could have worded it better)
was for you to just recognize that its my opinion.

BTW- Contrary to what you might think, I would not hesitate to save the life of another, even at great personal risk.

Neo, the statement"my critisism is just as valid as yours..." is false. In spite of the fact that All Men(and Women)Are Created Equal, an informed and well thought out opinion or criticism trumps the uninformed opinion or criticism every time. It has been pointed out to you already that most of the damage was done before the police could do anything, but you still say the police should have burst in un-informed of the situation.
What the HELL do you think they could have done different?

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"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter Thompson

Do you know what I have not yet seen? A good chronology of the event. There were at least four chronologies published by various news organizations within a day of the shootings. They generally were no more detailed than half-hour (or hour!) increments and they contradicted each other on several points.

Everyone comments on how long the cops waited before they went in. When were the last (suicide) shots fired by the kids? The descriptions of events that I have read (without having times assigned to them) portrayed the kids shooting their way into the school, charging up and down a few hallways, ducking into and out of the cafeteria, and then heading directly to the library. With the events described that way, I can easily picture the kids' suicide coinciding with the S.W.A.T. team's arrival. At that point, the cops are deciding where to go first, they are interrogating whoever seems coherent among several hundred panicked kids trying to determine anassault plan. Meanwhile, there are no more shots ringing out. Thus, they do not know whether they are facing rabid shooters or a potential hostage situation. If the shooting has stopped, what is the point of rushing in?

I have no idea whether there was shooting going on when the police arrived or whether it continued after they arrived. However, if there was not active shooting, they had no business going in until they knew that they were not going to trigger another episode of shooting. If there was continuous firing after they arrived, I would be more inclined to question their tactics. If the firing had stopped, they acted correctly, regardless how hard it was to watch the building on TV.

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Tom~

Amen, Tom. Administrator, could we please close this thread now?

::Cueing up final Jeopardy music::