Britishism Creeping Into U.S. Usage

[Huerta88]

And here I'm not talking about the annoying morons quoting Austin Powers lines.

Rather -- unless I'm wrong, I rarely if ever heard, before about two years ago, Americans using a plural verb form for a collective entity, whereas Brits generally always have.

E.g.: "The BBC are presenting a new series on celebrity vasectomies." "The House of Commons are convening to consider the new Rum, Sodomy, and Lash (Increased Naval Appropriations For) Act."

But
"NBC is featuring an interview with David Blaine's girlfriend to determine if she and Claudia Schiffer are actually the same person."
"Congress is considering new funding for the proposed Gulf War III."

Where I've really been seeing the change to the British form is in music reporting. Again, up till about 2000, it's my contention that no MTV (U.S.) VJ would have said "Incubus are touring the Midwest," but rather "is touring."

Am I right that this is a recent trend; how prevalent is it; and what is the reason for the affectation?

[Johnny L.A.]

I used to talk that way about 15 years ago. Sometimes I still catch myself doing it. It just made grammatical sense to me. But it seems to have a negative effect on some people, so I tried to stop. FWIW, I use "his" or "his or her" when I'm referring to individuals (e.g., "Will everyone please take his seat?") instead of "their".

[Joe Gahona]

The AP now sanctions the use of plurals for all bands, but sports teams still follow the usual logic.

[mrsface]

As a Brit, I was always taught that it was correct to use the singular for a collective entity, so I would say "the BBC is presenting..."

The only exception seems to be with football teams - it is always "Manchester United are climbing up the league" (heh)

[KenGr]

I hope we're not going to the plural default. It's taken years but we in the technical world are finally accepting that collective nouns like "data" and "equipment" can be treated as singular. (The data shows... The equipment was shipped...)

[Celyn]

It is wrong in Britain too, although I have NO idea what is correct for football teams. :)

[MC Master of Ceremonies]

In the UK singular and plural can both be used, depending very much on context, for example:

"The BBC is the UK's largest......" sounds more correct to me than the plural alternative, but "The BBC are making changes to their...." sounds just as correct as the singular.

For band names and sporting teams in the UK, the plural is always preferred tho'.

[MartinL]

When I learned English (as a second language) this was one of the things I would discuss with my teachers at length, mainly because they did not know the answer for sure themselves.
Funny though, we had some foreign native English speakers at our school and they could not agree either. People from London, Manchester, Sidney and Detroit gave different answers.

Eventually, there were some points where agreement could be achieved (they even called their English teachers at home), and these are the ones I can recall:

- There is no real reason to treat something as plural just because it consists of several sub-entities (things consist of many atoms, after all). A company is singular, two companies are plural. The same goes for one football team or club compared to two of them. However, you can say the people of (company here) are ..., and you can use the company name as a shortcut. So both could be correct, but the meaning is different.
- If not sure, look at the grammatical form. If you want to boast you know Latin, the data are this or that. If you don't care, then data is.
- Whatever you cannot count is singular: water (as opposed to drops of water), equipment (as opposed to pieces thereof), ...
- For certain words, use contrary to the rules has become common. So you may want to appear educated and use it correctly, or you just want to talk as everybody else and not be looked at suspiciously.

In short, we agreed we did not know, but at least we could gather some thoughts on the topic.

[Planet of the Shapes]

Its all part of our evil plan to make you speak proper english. Once Phase One (grammar) is complete we'll move onto Phase Two (vocabulary), eradicating words like diaper, cellphone etc..

[Philster]

The BBC are all wearing nappies.


Happy?

[SirRay]

Originally posted by Planet of the Shapes
eradicating words like diaper, cellphone etc..

OK, I know the first is nappy or something like that, but I have seen the word cellphone on 'TheRegister.co.uk' (in addition to 'Wireless' and mobile...

[Fiver]

I think mobile (rhymes with "dial") is the preferred Britishism for cellphone.

[KoalaBear]

Two phrases I've picked up from BBC America are "Aren't we the second coming," and "More tea, Vicar?"

I can't get much mileage from the latter expression (an acknowledgment of embarrassment or mortification) because the term Vicar isn't part of ordinary American speech, so it loses its flavor when you have to explain it to people.

The former expression however (an indictment of the self-righteous) can be extremely effective when delivered with just the right tone of deadpan sarcasm.

[Futile Gesture]

Originally posted by Fiver
I think mobile (rhymes with "dial")

No it doesn't. Mobile, as in the phone, either rhymes with noble or with nubile, depending on how you stress it.

'dial' has a diphthong, which 'mobile' doesn't.

[Fiver]

Well, aren't we the second coming?

[hammos1]

Originally posted by KoalaBear
"More tea, Vicar?" (an acknowledgment of embarrassment or mortification) Wrong. This is actually a phrase used when offering more tea to a vicar. I will leave you to work out the derivation.

Originally posted by KoalaBear
"Aren't we the second coming," (an indictment of the self-righteous) Prepare yourself for some blank looks if you ever deploy this one in the U.K.

[spogga]

Mrs FACE: Cut out the foul language, Manure indeed.

CELYN: What is correct for football teams is "Man Utd are money grabbing assholes" but Manchester City are a rather nice team who play in a lovely shade of sky blue

[spogga]

Originally posted by Planet of the Shapes
Its all part of our evil plan to make you speak proper english. Once Phase One (grammar) is complete we'll move onto Phase Two (vocabulary), eradicating words like diaper, cellphone etc..

Phase Three being the introduction of various accents, scouse, geordie,manc, and so forth

Phase Four. The welcome back into the arms of the UK of the US and the appointment of Tony Blair as president for life. :D

[mrsface]

Originally posted by spogga
Mrs FACE: Cut out the foul language, Manure indeed.

CELYN: What is correct for football teams is "Man Utd are money grabbing assholes" but Manchester City are a rather nice team who play in a lovely shade of sky blue

Actually it's "arseholes", darling

[KoalaBear]

Posted by hammos1Originally posted by KoalaBear
"More tea, Vicar?" (an acknowledgment of embarrassment or mortification)Wrong. This is actually a phrase used when offering more tea to a vicar. I will leave you to work out the derivation.Well, aren't we the second coming.

According to Sydes Profanosaurus (http://www.sydes.net/jokes/extra/Profanasaurus/ProfanasaurusM.html), "More tea, Vicar?" is defined as a "Faux farcical attempt to distract clergyman after the launch of an air biscuit (qv) now widely used to diffuse post fart tension."

Granted there were no clergymen, flatulence or afternoon meals to convey the meaning of the dialog in its proper context, but figuring out the meaning of idioms like these are the reason I enjoy watching foreign language television in the first place.

It's enough to make a bald man cry, innit?

[Una Persson]

Originally posted by Johnny L.A.
I used to talk that way about 15 years ago. Sometimes I still catch myself doing it. It just made grammatical sense to me. But it seems to have a negative effect on some people, so I tried to stop. FWIW, I use "his" or "his or her" when I'm referring to individuals (e.g., "Will everyone please take his seat?") instead of "their".
This post describes my way of talking, except I go out of my way to use "her", just to be different. And with each passing day my speech becomes more "British" in character - thanks to the steady influence of Fierra and the fact that I "mirror" speech.

[spogga]

Originally posted by mrsface
Actually it's "arseholes", darling

Correct you gorgeous creature you

[Huerta88]

Am I right that the "Whitesnake are touring the Upper Midwest" form has gone from unheard of in the U.S. say five years ago to being possibly the majority usage? If so, why now?

[MC Master of Ceremonies]

Probably because Whitesnake have just started a new nationwide tour?

[Johanna]

I daresay the abolition of all punctuation which as is well known originated from a Brit postwar drive to economise by saving quite a few kilolitres of ink via not employing punctuation Mr Blair is now catching on in the USA as evidenced by the style or rather shall we say nonstyle of writing on the Straight Dope Message Boards wot

[SciFiSam]

It's quite simple really.

If you're talking about an organisation that is made up of lots of different sub-organisations and people within them, but you are talking about the group as if it were one whole thing, then you use 'is.' Like in the example given by MC Master of Ceremonies: "The BBC is the UK's largest......"

In this you're basically pretending the BBC is a single united entity. If you were pressed as to what you meant by 'BBC,' you'd say 'the corporation that makes TV programmes.'

However, if you're implicitly acknowledging that the BBC is made up of lots of disparate groups and members, then you use are: "The BBC are making changes to their...." If you were pressed to explain what you meant by the BBC in this context, you'd have to say 'the controllers of the BBC,' or 'the people who work for the BBC,' because the corporation as an abstract entity can't make changes all on its own.

Basically, by using 'are' you're conceding that there are more people involved than the singular would imply.


The change in grammar uses for band names in the US is probably just because with artists' names these days you can never tell which is a band and which is a solo artist. Being specific with the verb form helps us know what the hell they're talking about.

[Johanna]

When a band name is the same as a single person's name (Van Halen, Bon Jovi) then what the hell...