May Alligators Rip Off Your Scrotum and Masticate Your Still-Warm Innards

[Marley23]

**This is my first pitting, so judges, please be kind. ;)**

"How Is A 'Wet Willy' So Different From Rape?" (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=214250)????? Are you shitting me, Surreal? I didn't think anybody could be as fucking stupid as you demonstrate yourself to be on this thread, (You're not alone, but you seem to be leading the crusade on behalf of the ignorant, like some kind of brain-damaged Richard the Lionhearted.) Fuck you, you stupid, cross-eyed syphillitic little shit. (No offense intended to the brain-damaged, cross-eyed, or the syphillitic, all of whom I hold in far higher regard than Surreal at the moment.) Not only are you advocating the weakest, stupidest line of reasoning I've ever seen on these boards, the mind-numbingly empty-headed drivel you're spewing is the weakest, stupidest line of reasoning I've ever read, anywhere!

Congratulations! You win The Prize! In the past, once every couple of months, I'd see something moronic and say "That might be the dumbest thing I've ever seen!" Well, never again! You win the award in perpetuity! Every time I observe something so petrifyingly stupid it makes my brain want to take a flying leap from my skull and into the depths of Lake Michigan, I'll think of your idiotic thread and wonder if I can run for President and institute a policy of mandatory abortion.

I'm sorry. Mandatory, RETROACTIVE abortion. You dumb bastard.

Lest anyone think my rage is purely comic in nature, which it's not, I hasten to add:

For belittling all the rape and sex assault survivors I know, fuck you. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. Fuck you for trivializing something that ruins lives and leaves such deep scars. Fuck you for saying that if you raped an unconscious woman while wearing a condom, and if she didn't remember it, then you would have done nothing wrong.

If you were posing a hypothetical question and being dense on purpose, or if there had ever been even the remotest possibility that your thread could lead to knowledge or a real debate, I'd probably reluctantly tolerate the stupid, stupid, stupid questions you're asking. But you actually don't seem to understand that getting raped is worse than getting a wet willy. You schmuck.

I can't believe that anyone who can type his own name - which I assume you can, although you know what they say about what happens when you assume - would seriously think women are only hurt by rape because of some old-fashioned societal hangups. Like if they'd just loosen up, it wouldn't matter if a guy came along and raped them. I guess it'd be a harmless, slightly irritating prank, like a wet willy! You dipshit.

Can you really be so stupid as to think that rape is okay if the woman doesn't get pregnant? Apparently you can! Who knew? They say anything is possible, but I'd have thought density like yours would have sucked the entire fucking universe into it like a black hole and obliterated all existence! You're an insult to idiot-kind, you waste of space - not to mention sperm.

Is it within board policy to wish a pack of rabid hyenas would come to his house and gnaw his skull a bit? Just for a few hours? I doubt he'd be using it for anything at the time.

[pencilpusher]

VERY good first rant/pit!! I agree with you 100%

I don't think it's against the rules to wish that but it might be seen as animal cruelty.

[NoClueBoy]

*Noogies!*


Or flattening your head with a hammer.


Same?



I like your rant. Gave me a chubbie.

[furt]

A workmanlike rant, though a little heavy on the explanations an a little light on the vitriol. It was an easy, self-evident target and there's no need for the point-by-point; you just need to lay the lumber.

Still, a very solid job all round. A promising first pitting.

[Palo Verde]

I didn't have a problem with the OP. I thought he was making an interesting point.

Rape is seen as an especially terrible form of assault for social reasons. If you read the whole thread there is an interesting discussion about this.

It isn't because it's painful (if it weren't painful we would still think of it as terrible). It isn't because of the chance of pregnancy or disease (again, terrible even if these don't exist). It isn't because it's violent (if someone forced you at gunpoint to clip their toenails it may also be violent, but not seen as terrible as rape).

We see it as terrible because of our societal views of sex and privacy. This doesn't mean that it's wrong, it's just an interesting point of view.

[Guinastasia]

I was thinking of Pitting him as well. What the FUCK? A rape is no more than a wet willy?



It seems like ignorance is only getting stronger, like bacteria that is resistant to anti-biotics.

[Sinshine]

I am a survivor.

Thank you, Marley23, for taking this nut on. I turned my computer off, and went and puked for a little while. The only reason I came back was to bop him over the head with a ... with a ...

I do not know what would inflict enough pain on his disconnected skull to illustrate the devastation that rape inflicts on the victims and survivors. And I cannot bring myself to hope this jackass ever gets to witness the devastation first-hand, because that requires wishing harm on an innocent by-stander simply for educational purposes.

I offer you a Surreal smack-upside the head. Dipshit.

[The Man With The Golden Gun]

As someone in the original thread said, Surreal (I'm not giving him/her/it the honor of having their name bolded) is a very apt name for this cunttard.

[Palo Verde]

When I first opened the thread my reaction was much like everyone else's. WTF???

But reading it made me think. Made me question the whys of the issue.

He isn't saying that the emotional impact of a wet willy and a rape are the same. Not at all. He is asking why they aren't.

There was a thread a million years ago about murder. Why is it such a big deal? Again, I thought the poster was nuts. Of course it's the hugest crime possible!

But after the discussion I came to the conclusion that I think it's terrible because of the culture I was raised in. Other times and other cultures don't see it the same way.

This doesn't mean that I will (or should) think that murder is less than evil. It doens't mean I should get over myself and start thinking that murderers are just making another value judgement. None of that.

It just helps me understand where my deep-seated feelings and values come from.

It's very similar here.



I have just come to think this recently, and if I'm come to the wrong conclusion, I will certainly reconsider.

But insted of all the emtional "You insensitive scumbad" rhetoric, some me where this conclusion is wrong.

[Mr. Blue Sky]

I give it an 8. A full point deduction for not naming your target in the thread title, though.

[Marley23]

He isn't saying that the emotional impact of a wet willy and a rape are the same. Not at all. He is asking why they aren't.
I could go back and do a headcount, but I bet at least 10 posters explained, using numerous analogies and tacts, why they're not the same. Read them. tanookie posted a good one, for example. Surreal doesn't seem to think any of them are legit, even though some of them (especially the fact that abused children are also hurt by sex abuse) seem to disprove his theory that it's all in our heads. He seems to be arguing that just because the actions are similar in a very vague way, they should be treated the same. There's nothing wrong with posing the question, I already said that. It's the answers he's offering that are moronic, and I stand by that.

There's nothing wrong with understanding your deep-seated feelings. It's that Surreal (and a couple of other numbskulls) are trying to use reductivist idiot-logic to come to a conclusion that is obviously false.

[El Cid Viscoso]

Sign me up in the "no problem with the debate" column. Marley23, you're way off base and possibly grandstanding on a very emotive topic.

The forum was Great Debates. Much of what I've read so far in that thread is a less-than-objective analysis of rape and its meaning -- apparently a little too thorny for the scientifical types out there, huh? I guess I've been under a misapprehension.

No one is saying a wet willie is the same as rape, let's just get that straight. Rape is bad, the worst thing one person can do to another person without taking a life. (In fact, I would rather be dead than raped.) Piling onto a poster because of a reasonable question -- and for proctoring a debate -- is just plain ignorant.

[Marley23]

possibly grandstanding on a very emotive topic.
Grandstanding? Bite me. I was speaking from the heart.

No one is saying a wet willie is the same as rape
Perhaps you're not saying that. That's not what I'm seeing in the thread, though:

CurtC: "That's the difference. Social customs."

Surreal: "I don't see any point in distinguishing between something that is 'sexual' vs. something that isn't. What difference does it make if the person doing it is getting off from it?"

"it seems as if you can't come up with an *inherent* difference between the 2 acts. Is there an inherent difference? If there is no inherent difference, then cleary they *could* be equivalent, depending on the circumstances."

"If, say, neither resulted in pregnancy, getting a disease, other physical violence or threats thereof, and both caused equal amounts of physical pain. Wouldn't they be the same then?"

CurtC: "Most answer so far have used physical differentiators - the length of time, the use of force, the pain. But in all of those, you could just say "what if rape were done quickly and painlessly?" or "what if a wet willy were done painfully and with threat of force?" But even in those cases, they still wouldn't be the same. Rape is worse because of our social customs - the mental baggage that goes along with sexual intercourse. And Tigers2B1, that mental pain you're talking about is just due to this mental baggage. So the answer: were it not for our social customs, a wet willy would be as grievous an offense as rape."

Cheesesteak: "Physically, the difference between a wet willy (forced kiss, or any other minor assault) and rape is relatively minor. [...] Rape holds the place it does in our minds because of our societal customs. If we as a society thought nothing special about sex, rape would be a much lesser crime than it is today."

Surreal: "No trauma, no pregnancy, no disease, no memory...yet she would still be considered the victim of a terrible crime. Does that make sense to you?"

[El Cid Viscoso]

Marley23, interesting. You somehow chose to debate only three of these? Were you not interested in hearing whether they really do view the two acts as equivalent?

The debate is ham-fisted and generally hedges on inappropriate in form and content. But let's try and keep it in context, shall we?

[fruitbat]

Mr. B and Autz -

As sharp as you both normally are, you seem to have read an entirely different OP and subsequent responses by Surreal than everyone else. The thread you are describing would be interesting. If Surreal had come in to discuss what it is about rape that makes it such a terrible crime, this thread would never have been started.

Instead Surreal made it abundantly clear that he or she personally saw no difference between a wet willy and being raped. Not in a semantic sense, he or she really did not see the difference. That makes said poster a first class fucktard.

I sense a deep seated problem with the entire concept of rape. Surreal just didn't have enough courage to address whatever problems he has directly, thus the ridiculous wet willy nonsense.

[BornOfStardust]

Much of what I've read so far in that thread is a less-than-objective analysis of rape and its meaning -- apparently a little too thorny for the scientifical types out there, huh? I guess I've been under a misapprehension. I don't see what was so unobjective about most of the posts in that thread. (Aside from some accounts of personal experience, but those--especially tanookie's--were poignant, admirably restrained, and didn't detract from the debate in my opinion.)

People explained the differences many, many times in perfectly lucid and logical ways. If any them were relatively simple (perhaps you meant that instead of "less-than-objective"?), it's because they were in response to pretty ludicrous arguments that didn't require more complex responses.

There are so many ways, social customs bullshit or no, that these two acts are NOT "equivalent" (Surreal's word, btw), that I wouldn't even know where to start. Read that thread, though, and you'll find a bunch of them.

It's ABSURD to argue that rape only makes you feel bad because society tells you it should feel bad and that rape could EVER be equivalent to a wet willy if there wasn't violence, consciousness or memory on the part of the victim, or pregnancy/disease involved. The strongest evidence I can think of for this is, again, the child abuse issue. They're CHILDREN. Social customs mean little to them yet, especially the younger ones, but they are still scarred for life if they are mistreated in a sexual way. If they get a wet willy, they go "ewww!" and that's about it.
Mangetout put it quite well: Seems like this thread is an exercise in the arbitrary; a bit like asking "apart from all the differences between X and Y, what's the difference?"

I'm somebody who's had wet willies before. I'm also somebody who was raped. And if you want to talk "good" and "bad" rape (very relatively speaking), mine wasn't so "bad"--I wasn't assaulted or beaten and I received neither an unwanted disease nor an unwanted fetus. But wet willies never made me confused or ashamed of myself. Wet willies never made me feel that something deeply, deeply wrong had just happened, and wet willies didn't make me bleed from two very intimate orifices, the unwanted penile penetration of which would adversely affect anybody, socialized or not. Saying that that experience could be on the same level as a childish prank is not only stupid, it's also deeply insulting. It trivializes my pain and the pain experienced by millions of other survivors.

[presidebt]

I read the thread in question earlier this evening, and have kept up with it since. As far as I can tell, the truth of what happened in the thread lies somewhere in the middle of those offended and those debating.

Yes, rape is an emotional issue, and I think Marley23 is reacting out of compassion. I also think that so far, it has just been a debate, and an interesting one. I can't say that I haven't seen some of the border-line justifying Marley23 refers to--it is there. But I also think most people are trying to keep it to realistic debate about how we think about rape, and how we have come to think about it. The analogy used is offensive, to be sure, but the question is interesting, even to me. And let's face it, we aren't often allowed to discuss this issue with any sort of scientific curiosity in this manner.

Rape is about social custom as well as about biology, psychology, violence and power. Rape is almost universally repugnant now, which is great, and the way it should be. But it wasn't always, and our old views still come out in times and places of great conflict, such as the Bosnia/Serb situtation. Maybe we have more to learn on this issue.

That's all good and well, but I'd like to get back to this idea border-line justifying before I end. Marley23 has done a good job of quoting much of what am referring to. I'd just caution some people to try not to go reaching in the heat of the debate.

Great pitting Marley23, just a 'lil premature for me. :)

[Marley23]

You somehow chose to debate only three of these?
The three posters I quoted were the ones claiming that one some level, if not any or all levels, the two actions were equivalent. Nobody else was making that claim. Why would I argue with people who were agreeing with me?

Were you not interested in hearing whether they really do view the two acts as equivalent?
In what way did I not do this? If any of them felt their comments were being misinterpreted, they've had an entire thread to say so. None of them has. Surreal has not retracted what he said, nor has he offered any comments to the effect that he thinks rape is horrible but wants to examine some dimensions of the issue. Given his posts to the thread, I can't think of any reason to take his comments at anything but face value, as a sincere attempt to show that being raped and being wet willied' should be considered legally (and morally, it would seem) equivalent. Ditto CurtC and Cheesesteak. Why should I assume their intent is the opposite what it appears to be without any evidence to that end?

[El Cid Viscoso]

Thanks, fruitbat, I appreciate your insight. I think there's definitely some ambiguity in the original thread if this many reasonable people see it so differently. I looked at it through the eyes of science and mused the anthropological reasons for the cross-cultural abhorrence and punishment of the act. With my knowledge of Jane Goodall plus the theories of sperm competition and the male foreskin (that's a sentence for the ages), I perhaps tinted the debate, but I saw no reason to believe the contributors were minimizing rape and likening it to a wet willie.

Marley23, I was actually referring to three quotes, not three separate posters. I was stunned by your OP because in Great Debates you gave no indication of your indignation there, or displayed any need to fully discuss the subject at length with the above inductees. I mean, you never really outright asked them, did you? Your recent answer to my post in GD is similarly stunning because you misunderstand me almost without exception. But that's good! :) Read below:

When viewed in a debate forum, perhaps the subject is treated a little idealistically. (Maybe it's just me.) All the way through, I only saw it as an anthropological question, never from an emotional perspective. I was attempting to keep it clean to the evolutionary roots, if they in fact exist.

Marley23, thank you for opening me up to this other perception. I will not, however abandon mine.

[Cheesesteak]

Hey, I just got pitted! I feel like I'm one of the gang now.

Look, if you want to say that rape would still be rape outside of human societal customs, let's examine the animal world. Place a cow in a pen with a bull, and that cow is going to get some, whether she wants it or not. Is that cow going to be traumatized? I don't think so, because cows don't care about sex.

We care about sex, it is important to us, that's why rape is a crime.

BTW, I saw Surreal's arguments as being a bit of the devils advocate, rather than trying to convince someone that rape was no big deal.

[Typo Negative]

Originally posted by Mr. B
I perhaps tinted the debate, but I saw no reason to believe the contributors were minimizing rape and likening it to a wet willie.

You're gonna have to help me see that.

From Surreal
The perpetrator could do this while using a condom, and the victim may not even be sure whether it happened to her or not.

No trauma, no pregnancy, no disease, no memory...yet she would still be considered the victim of a terrible crime. Does that make sense to you?

That sounds a lot like minimizing to me. Could you explain how it is not?

[fruitbat]

Mr. B -

You are absolutely right that most of the participants in that thread attempted to turn the question into an interesting cultural discussion. Surreal was an exception. I was agreeing with Marley on that poster's essential cluelessness. I didn't find anyone else in that thread objectionable.

[Ludovic]

Cheesesteak wrote:

Look, if you want to say that rape would still be rape outside of human societal customs, let's examine the animal world. Place a cow in a pen with a bull, and that cow is going to get some, whether she wants it or not. Is that cow going to be traumatized? I don't think so, because cows don't care about sex.

(most) humans care about ethics. Rape and wet willies violate ethics, because the object has no choice in the matter. I don't think cows care about ethics, either.

I think that ethics and freedom are also one of the touchstones of a civilized society. Yes, some cultures may not hold them in high regard, but if they do not, that means they are lacking as a culture, pure and simple. The values should be a universal trait.

[even sven]

It could have been an interesting discussion.

However, the OP seemed to be a postureing fucktard that used a silly strawman to communicate his theory that rape isn't anything to get worked up about and women should stop being so damn sensitive about. This is really insulting to people who have been raped, and holding views like this generally makes a person an asshole.

[Bippy the Beardless]

I am involved in the debate forming from that OP, but what Surreal has added to the debate is either
Very poorly put (which can be said of what I contribute to that debate as well).
or is intentionally dissmissive of the suffering caused by rape.
If the former, then we can hope Surreal will learn to put his arguments more precisely and politely.
If the latter than I hope he roasts in the SDMB PIT.

[tanookie]

Some animal species do rape their females. I've tried to search but the porn is overwhelming. I believe ducks are one of the species that do. When there are not enough females a group of young males that are left out of mating season will ambush and rape a female often severly injuring her or killing her in the process. That is very different from normal mating where the female is left pregnant but otherwise unharmed so she can birth and raise her offspring.

Also while I don't know about cows... cats and dogs and many other animals go into heat when they are fertile. This is (I believe) the only time they have sex. If you've ever seen a female cat in heat you know she's really asking for sex.

[Palo Verde]

I'll agree that Surreal phrased the OP (and subsequent posts) extremely badly.

It's an issue that a lot of people are going to get emotional and upset about, no matter how tactfully phrased the question, but stupid analogies and suspicious implications certainly don't help.

I think it is and interesting quesiton, and I hope the thread can come to a point where interesting conclusions are drawn.

Either that or let the thread die and when passions have cooled someone who is good at tactful question can come and start another thread that addresses these issues in a better way.

[cowgirl]

Some animal species do rape their females. I've tried to search but the porn is overwhelming.

First of all: :D

Second: I believe dolphins do. No cite, sorry - I see what you mean about "overwhelming" !

(On another note, I never cease to be amazed at the things I can learn on the Internet ...)

[Sheerdee Light]

1. Wet your finger and stick it in your own ear.
2. Ask yourself this simple question--does it penetrate the delicate parts of your ear?

Now try this: (You'll need a partner)

1. Have your partner pull a weapon on you, threaten you with death, rip off your clothes and forcibly thrust a stiff dick into your vagina.
2. As yourself this simple question--does the stiff dick penetrate the delicate parts of your vagina?


Rape isn't about sex, it is about control and violation.

Sheerdee Light