Minorities

Continued from GQ thread "Minorities."

Which was, incidentally, at: http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001567.html .

Minorities. Do they exist? Or don't they? What do we really think of them? How do you spell "Minorities"? Why are there 3 different threads entitled "Minorities" on the SDMB right now, and one that was deleted? The Great Debate wages on.

Your Quadell

Continuing my point from the General Questions thread, I will ask here: Did the 1980 and 1990 censuses continue the lack of an ethnic "majority" (or even much of any ethnic plurality!) in the U. S. Population? Is it likely the 2000 Census will?

There's never been a lack of an ethnic majority in America. 83.4% of Americans are white. (12.4% are black.) 56% are Protestant. (28% are Roman Catholic, 10% are "none".)

This info comes direct to you from the CIA, http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/us.html#people.

Where did you get the idea whites weren't a majority?

Your Quadell

I exlained this in the General Questions thread. The 1970 U. S. Census showed that there were two ethnic minorities in the United States with the greatest numbers: Anglo-Saxon Whites (19 million) and black (19 million. Since the 1970 Census showed a total of 203,235,298--a number later corrected only slightly--this means 165 million Americans in minorities even smaller than 19 million. (The Information Please Almanac for 1971 subdivided "whites" into Anglo-Saxon, Hispanic, Slavic, Arab, Scandinavian, Celtic, etc.)
THAT's what I mean by 'no majority.'

I'm fairly certain there is no longer an ethnic majority in California, even if you do lump all the "White" Europeans together. In fact, Hispanics (European-Native American mix, I guess) are predicted to out number Whites (mostly European, I guess...again!) within a very short number of years.

I suspect that as soon as Whites technically become a minority there will still be those that will insist that we label them something stupid like "dominant culture ethnicity"

Many of those who proclaim that their ultimate goal is a color blind society are the same that insist that the means to this goal are to focus on color. I find this as silly as Marx's "Dictatorship of the Prolotariate" as a prerequesite for an egalitarian society.

Chew on this:

If you really think color shouldn't matter, stop saying that since it still does, it should.

[[Did you query each of them about their political beliefs? This is just the sort of generalization based on skin color (i.e. they're not "white," nor are they "liberals" but rather "white liberals" using the skin color as an adjective modifying the noun, thus establishing a link between the two) that doesn't sit well with me.]]

Let me clarify, if I can. The two people who were offended that I finked on the thief happened to be White, and were upset that anyone could accuse a Black person of stealing, even if I witnessed it, which they heard that I had. I called them "liberals," but maybe that isn't accurate. Anyone got a better term there? There probably is one.
I was assuming that they felt uncomfortable that any White person could accuse any Black person of wrong-doing. (I also consider myself to be a liberal on most issues.)

[[Later on you refer to "white racists and black thieves" -- the parallel structure making it seem that you're referring to the "white liberals" and the "scumbag" from your story..]]

No. I wasn't describing the people in the store when I said "white racists." I meant that my child will suffer, probably, because of white racism against blacks (some may argue that this doesn't occur anymore?) AND also because of black criminals like the shoplifter who, by their actions, reinforce the stereotypes that all Black folks steal.

[[So how is it that they're white racists? Are you sure of this? Are you making the link that liberal=racist? Are you claiming that they are racist for making the generalization that you as a white were being racist by pointing out the kid's thievery? ]]

Hope I clarified that that is not what I meant. I meant to describe a personal incident and my personal reaction to it. But I'm gonna get out now, while the gettin is good. I don't seem to articulate my positions very well on this topic.
Jill

I took a course in literature at El Camino College in California. The instructor, who is black, assigned us to read "The Invisible Man," by Ralph Ellison. It was an impressive novel, but one point taken up early in the story (and hammered on by the instructor), was that "responsibility" must be overridden by the objective of equality ('there will be no peace without justice'). The problem here is that this can be easily seized on by white supremacists and other bigots: "See, they won't act responsibly! We are justified in our treatment of them!" Which is no better a notion.

Dougie_Monty, if I'm understanding you correctly, I believe you have to be wrong about this. I can't find any on-line info on the 1970 census, but the 1960 census revealed roughly 19 million back people, and roughly 158 million white people. Not 19 million.

Your Quadell

[Alex Kennedy]

I have (what I consider) an interesting question that may or may not have relevance to this board:

Am I Japanese?

Now, here's the thing: I live in Japan, I work in Japan. I have many Japanese freinds. Many of my interests are related to Japan in some way. I speak Japanese (fairly well, of course not perfectly). I feel personally (although I may be wrong) that I understand the Japanese way of doing things and the like as well, if not better, than the way of my native country. I may not live here forever, and I may not feel this way forever; I'm not currently a citizen of Japan, but rather a landed foreigner.
My skin is white, and my features are caucasoid. I was not born here.

The most surprising reaction I get when I tell some people this is anger; some people consider me a "traitor," although how prevalent that is, I don't know. I would assume that someone who chose their culture would have even more claim to being of that culture than someone who was randomly born into a culture. What do you think?

Which so obviously is no longer anywhere.

[Mr.Zambezi]

I do not believe that racism exists. That is not to say that people do not have prejudices towards easily identifiable groups. Rather, I mean that people are prejudiced against those that they percieve to be significantly different than the group with which they identify.

For example, a tall, stout, educated, middle class white woman may be prejudiced against males, aaaavery thin women, poor people, those of another race, short people, uneducated people, etc.

But it is about difference, not race. Race is often simply an easy identifier.

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"Do that which consists in taking no action and order will prevail" --Lao Tzu

And I have a question to follow up on Alex's. I have two friends who were born and raised in Africa and who are now citizens of the U.S. They are both white, yet under any definition, they are "African-American." Which is why I hate the term (not the PEOPLE, the term!). I have black friends who are neither African nor American, and they get understandably ticked off when they are referred to as such. Who the hell's stupid idea was the term African-American, anyway?

[tomndebb]

Jesse Jackson and a number of his acquaintances had a conference in Chicago several years ago to discuss the general issues of blacks surviving in a white society.

At the end of their conference, they held a press conference to describe their conclusions. Most of their thought has been lost in time (I certainly can't remember any of it), but the big news that got a lot of air-play was their declaration that they wanted to be referred to as African-Americans.

They actually had good (if flawed) reasons for doing this. One reason was that they wanted to have the opportunity of "selecting" their own term. (Since I remember the black community "selecting" black over Negro, colored, Afro-American and others terms in a three-year debate in the late sixties, I find this argument flawed as it indicates that Jesse and his buddies can't remember their own history.)

The reason that African-American was selected, specifically, was that it looked most like the ethnic terms that are a large part of the consciousness of urban/metropolitan Chicago. In that environment the terms Polish-American, German-American, and Italian-American, etc., are used by the descendents of immigrants as a point of pride in their heritage. Since the de-culturization that all imported slaves had to go through pretty well destoyed the ability of the grand-children of slaves to call themselves Gambian-American or anything similar, Mr. Jackson's group settled on African-American.

One significant problem with their attempt, of course, is that outside the strip of cities running through Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburg, and Buffalo, the whole hyphenated-American experience is greatly diminished. So what Mr. Jackson's group did made sense from a local perspective, but did not play well across the whole country.

Of course, Since Mr. Jackson is a national figure, the news media picked up on his pronouncement and many news groups changed their style books to reflect his suggestion. On the other hand, the last poll I saw among blacks gave a 70%/28%/other split favoring the term black over African-American (actually down from the 58%/40%/other split of about four years ago).

I would generally refer to Mr. Jackson as African-American, since that is his preferred term, but I follow the polls (and the people in that group whom I know personally) and use black in other discussions.

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Tom~

[EnigmaOne]

{{{Chew on this:

If you really think color shouldn't matter, stop saying that since it still does, it should.
}}}---PapaBear

I'm interpreting this to mean: "Stop saying that color doesn't matter, because the statement indicates that it still does--to you."

Hope I got it right PB, because it's a bit early and I'm only on my second cup of Joe.

At any rate, in that context, this brings to mind some comments, made by a local merchant, to my "significant other" and myself, as we were walking with our two children.

Her ethnicity is unimportant, but her attitude was obvious in both her body language, word choice and inflection:

<looking at me> "Are you their father?"
<looking at her> "And you're their mother?"
<looking at our girls> "My, my, aren't they just precious? And so clean too!"
<looking back at both of us> "No." (pregnant pause) "....Color just doesn't matter a bit you know. What matters is that you're clean. Yup, you're clean. That's all that matters--being clean. You're both very clean and your daughters are simply gorgeous....and....and....clean."

She moved on *very* quickly.

We looked at each other and laughed. (No! She didn't hear us laughing. That would have been rude.)



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--Kalél
(The Original EnigmaOne)

[ruadh]

One comment that Jill made that nobody (to my recollection) responded to was that she'd never heard a nonwhite person say "race doesn't matter." This has been my experience as well. I've never heard a nonwhite person say "My race is human" either. Why do y'all think that would be? Is it because nonwhites think race should matter? Or because their experience has been that it does?

Do any actual nonwhite people on this board want to get a word in?

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Never regret what seemed like a good idea at the time.

[sly]

ruadh: Do any actual nonwhite people on this board want to get a word in?


I'm sunburned, does that count?

Just a few thoughts:

Growing up near Detroit I have seen the effects of racism first-hand on a day-to-day basis. Plenty of my coworkers, neighbors and friends will not venture into the city to enjoy restuarants, concerts and other events because they perceive the city as a dangerous place. Some of this attitude can be attributed to racism but a large part of it is simple ignorance. Had I never met an Italian I would have thought them all to be heartless killers based upon jokes, mafia movies, opinions of others, etcetera. That, to me, is not racist, it's ignorance. Racism is much more noxious.

Racism stems from hatred of a given people based solely upon perceived inferiority. The problem is, racism breeds racism. Too often parents who are racist rear children who hold similar attitudes. This can only be remedied by education, it seems.

I question whether AA has done anything to ease animosity between blacks and whites because, as I see it, one who is already prejudiced is not going to take kindly to government intervention into their beliefs and ideals, however misguided they may be. You simply cannot legislate thoughts and opinions, no matter how evil.

We've come a long way since Selma in 1965. Maybe in another 30 years we'll have licked this altogether and we can move onto something else. Like finding Jimmy Hoffa's killer or something.

[Monty]

Alex Kennedy: after having spent five straight years on the outskirts of Tokyo, I find it indredibly difficult, nay impossible, to believe that you have not witnessed the discrimination in Japan against foreigners. Even Konishki, who is now a Japanese citizen, still catches some of that although he's at the top of the national sport there.

What? You've never been to a bar and been told "Gaijin kinjite." I have. It hurts.

Now if I'd been Japanese-American and knew the language (I'm Scots-German American and know Japanese), I'd probably not have the crossed arms greet me when I enter the place.

To those who didn't get the stats above: Anglo-Saxon White Americans aren't a majority BUT White Americans are. I'm not Ango and I'm not Saxon and I most strongly detest being lumped in with WASP since I'm not Protestant either. But I have the luxury of being White in a country mostly inhabited by Whites. The Japanese-Americans I postulated above in this post in Japan would thus have the luxury of being of Japanese race in a country mostly populated by those of Japanese race.

That's the way I see Jill's point. And it's not only dishonest to pretend that's not a valid point. It's ingorant and mean.

[Monty]

In my last posting above, the last sentence should read:

It's ignorant and mean.

[Lew]

Sorry folks-I won't be back to this thread..but I must say this!

Jill--fancy seeing you here!! and responding to your own comments in the original thread. Let's see, last time, I heard from you on the subject, You were raling and stamping your feet about how unfairly you were being treated on this subject, your parting words were: "I'm hitting reply button on the top and not going near the rest of it"

Again..important as this issue is to me, I can't discuss it here, at this time.

[dougie_monty]

To quadell: As I said before the "white" population was broken down, according to the 1971 "Information Please Almanac," into various ethnic subdivisions: Anglo-Saxon, Mediterranean, Slavic, Scandinavian, etc. I will agree that, for general purposes, there are five "races"--white, black, American Indian, "Oriental," and Polynesian--but I bet even these divisions are suspect. (See how Cecil treated this in "Return of the Straight Dope.")

[jayron 32]

OK... my $.02

Minorities are created by the majority.

What does that mean? you may ask...

I'll tell you, I say.

If we define the majority as those people guaranteed full participation and emersion in the culture, the "minorities" are those people who are excluded from that culture. Minorities, excluded from the predominant culture, will go on to form their own culture.

In our culture, the majority at some point along the line had chosen some arbitrary characteristic that, when present in an individual, excluded that individual from full participation and emersion in the predominant culture. This exclusion can be systemic and formal (in the case of slavery and Jim Crow laws) or casual and informal (such as a general attitude or misconception). It does not have to be written into law, but it can be. It just has to be that at some point in history, a group of individuals was denied full participation in the culture due to an arbitrary characteristic. All people seek participation in a culture. If denied participation in one culture, a people will form their own culture.

The next point is one people often miss: Even if the causes for the exclusion are removed, the culture that was formed because of it does NOT disappear. Thus, even though there is no more slavery, and their are laws protecting blacks from discrimination, there is still an African-American culture that is seperate and distinct from the standard American culture. Cultures, once formed, are extremely stable things.

Thus, we have minorities. Skin color is one arbitrary characteristic that seems obvious. Linguistic heritage is another. Why are people whose ancestors spoke Western Hemisphere dialects of Spanish denied full participation in the majority culture, but those whose ancestors spoke German or French not? By denying Hispanic-Americans full access to the American culture, the minority culture of Hispanic-Americans formed. Since no such exclusion occured for Franco-Americans, there is no minority class of Franco-Americans.

To quote V.I. Lenin: "What is to be done?" How do we guarantee full rights and privilages to people in a way that does not seek to eradicate their culture? People are necissarily defensive when measures are proposed that can lead to the eradication of a way of life they have always known. But we also seek equality and liberty for all people in the U.S. How do we reconcile these issues? It may take a bigger person than I to answer these questions.

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Jason R Remy

"Open mindedness is not the same thing as empty mindedness."
-- John Dewey Democracy and Education (1916)

[DianneCar]

<<One comment that Jill made that nobody (to my recollection) responded to was that she'd never heard a nonwhite person say "race doesn't matter." This has been my experience as well. I've never heard a nonwhite person say "My race is human" either. Why do y'all think that would be? Is it because nonwhites think race should matter? Or because their experience has been that it does?

Do any actual nonwhite people on this board want to get a word in?>>

The only non-white people I have heard say that are members of the Ba'hai faith. (sp?) An article of their faith is that it's immoral to recognize any distinction among the races. They'll tell you they belong to the Human Race.

Non-whites KNOW race matters. The only place where non-whites have the luxury of pretending that it doesn't *might* be cyberspace. I'm curious: I know male friends who've pretended to be women on the net; does anyone have any experience of intentionally "passing" as another race?

[Contestant #3]

Yes, I know a situation where a white person that I know on a local message board passed himself off as black. It's pretty easy to do.

I've surfed quite a bit and I rarely encounter blacks on the internet. Why is that?



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Contestant #3

[DianneCar]

Yes, I know a situation where a white person that I know on a local message board passed himself off as black. It's pretty easy to do.
I've surfed quite a bit and I rarely encounter blacks on the internet. Why is that? -Contestant #3

Ummm...how would you know if you had? ;)

Seriously, an upper income black or hispanic family is almost as likely to use the 'net regularly as is a white family of the same socio-economic level, although poor folks of pretty much any description are slow to get wired. It's statistically less likely that poor blacks and latinos will use the net than poor whites but that gap seems to have shrunk this year.

I have a friend who volunteers teaching inner-city Chicago kids to become UNIX programmers. The first assignment he gives them is to look up starting salaries on the net. When these children see the starting salaries are 10X what their parents can make, BOY do they get excited!

But back to your Black Like Me friend: how did he or she make out? Did they find anything different about the experience?

[gene]

Can I become African American?
Don't laugh - it is rumored that there will be a layoff where I work...it might be good for me to become a member of a minority group.
If I was challenged in court, how could the government dis-prove my claim?
Is it enough to have a dark complexion, eat soul food, listen to the blues?
Suppose I found out that my grat-graet grandfather was black-would that make me an afro-american?
For that matter, can I claim to be a hispanic ? (I like Mexican food).

[Mr.Zambezi]

Gene, the joke at a company I worked for during layoffs was that we were all Gay. Let's see them disprove that one.

[jayron 32]

Can I become African American?
Don't laugh - it is rumored that there will be a layoff where I work...it might be good for me to become
a member of a minority group.
If I was challenged in court, how could the government dis-prove my claim?
Is it enough to have a dark complexion, eat soul food, listen to the blues?

actually, the burden of proof would be on proving that you were layed off because you were african-american. It may be hard to believe, but perfectly legal for companies to lay-off, fire, or do anything of the sort to african-americans so long as it is for a reason other than their race. So even if you did claim that you were african-american, you're company could still lay you off because you didn't have the seniority, or even because your ignorant and dim-witted buffoon. And they could do this even if you were, in reality, African-American...

BTW, skin tone has little to do with race. Indians (the kind from asia, not america) are Caucasians despite the fact that their skin color may be much darker than say, the Xhosa of South Africa. And the skin color in India has a wide range itself.

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Jason R Remy

"One pill makes you taller, and one pill makes you small, but the ones that mother gives you don't do anything at all"
-- Jefferson Airplane White Rabbit (Slick, G. 1966)

[EnigmaOne]

{{{The only non-white people I have heard say that are members of the Ba'hai faith. (sp?) An article of their faith is that it's immoral to recognize any distinction among the races. They'll tell you they belong to the Human Race.}}}---DianneCar

Interesting. Although I would find myself at juxtaposition with other articles of the Ba'hai (sp? - me too) faith, I have lived my life in accordance with the quoted material, with the exception of the use of the word "race." Nit-picky? Maybe, but I actually see far more sense in the term "ethnicity."


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--Kalél
(The Original EnigmaOne)
Common ¢ for all ages.

[DianneCar]

Kalel says: "Interesting. Although I would find myself at juxtaposition with other articles of the Ba'hai (sp? - me too) faith, I have lived my life in accordance with the quoted material, with the exception of the use of the word "race." Nit-picky? Maybe, but I actually see far more sense in the term "ethnicity."

I see your point. I don't lose sleep over the distinction but, you're right, we're all humans. Now if we could just learn to treat each other that way... ;)

Oh, someone had asked about black folks on the 'net. This morning I learned that black American consumers spent a little over $750 Million on computers and computer products in 1997. This figure doesn't even include purchases by blacks in ecommerce, nor does it include black-owned businesses. Thought it interesting.