The TIME 100

I'd like to know what everyone thinks about the Time 100, and the subsequent poll for the most influentual man of the century.

Here is the website if you want to look over the selections before posting. TIME 100 (http://cgi.pathfinder.com/time/time100/index.html)

I know this topic has been broached already, by the entire NASA and Russian space programs have been totally ignored, I think this is the biggest pile of shit considering Lucille Ball made the list, talk about a waste of time and air. I generally don't think entertainers even belong on the list, what have they done to influence the century and humanity. There are a few exceptions, one being Jackie Robinson, but its not so much for his on the field performances. But Bart Simpson? I love the Simpsons, but influential, i think not. I could go on about every selection, but i won't

My vote for the most influential person of the century is for Robert Oppenheimer, the leader and drive behind the Manhattan Project. Considering the influence of Nuclear War has been the singular most importnat factor in the last 50 years, I think he fits. I don't need to even comment on the fact he's not even included in the list of 100.

There is a lot of contraversey about including Hitler as the most influential man. I say he fits the bill, but just doesn't live up to it. Some seem to think this is a positive award, but those clowns need a dictionary. Hitler lost the war and his influence has been stopped, and olny existed for a decade or so, and beyond a bunch of memorials his actions don't effect day to day life. I won't even get into the fact that Elvis is in the lead on their poll.

What do all of you think? I am confident that many of the folks here have the common sence enough to discuss people who can be argued to fit the position.

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The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The distinction is yours to draw...

Omniscient; BAG

Bill Gates is one of the most influential people of the century, even though he influenced only the past two decades. His sphere of influence has been world-wide and will continue into the next century. He hasn't even (really) begun to use his massive personal wealth to change the world, but when he gets serious about doing so, his influence will be even more remarkable than has been the influence of the company that he founded and presides over today.

He definitely makes the top 5.

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Contestant #3

Whoa! What are Bill's Gate's plans to change the world, besides distributing more of it's wealth into his company?

Should I be worried?

I don't think they did too badly. What they tried to do (except for the "leaders and revolutionaries" category) was take the leading representative in various fields.

I do think that entertainers have influence on peoples' lives, and that their category belonged. I do agree with you, though, that Bert Simpson didn't belong on the list. Obviously, they wanted some representative of cartooning and/or animation on their list. But certainly Bart isn't the most influential cartoon character...I'd say Superman was...and in any case, it should be the cartoonist who is honored, not the cartoon. If they had to include a cartoonist (and I think that the comic book, comic strip and animation are legitimate art form that have had great impact on 20th-century esthetics), I'd choose either Charles Schutz or Jack Kirby.

As for the most influential person of the century, well, I've voted for him there, and I'll repeat my choice here: Henry Ford. What had changed human life in the twentieth century more than the mass availability of the automobile? And he was the one who achieved that. A close second, in my opinion, would be the Wright brothers, but I think Ford deserves the honor.



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Chaim Mattis Keller
ckeller@schicktech.com

"Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks."
-- Douglas Adams's Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective

Typo...of course, I meant Charles Schulz.

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Chaim Mattis Keller
ckeller@schicktech.com

"Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks."
-- Douglas Adams's Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective

All good choices, but I just don't think they make the cut for most influential of the century. Bill Gates is important and has done a lot in the business world, but much of it is not revolutionary or even atypical. His tactics and success is not much difernt than other innovators earlier in the century, him and Ford are cut from similar cloths. And as you pointed out much of is infulence is what "will" be, any future consideration don't apply to the man of the century. About the Wright brothers, I have a very close appreciation for the airplane and its significance, but I don't know that I'd select these men as the most influential in the field. To them it was just a novelty and they never made it the force it is today. I feel that Lindburgh is more important than the Wright brothers in that he thrust the airplane into its position today as the bridge between continents. From a military standpoint none are more influential than Chuck Yeager. Ford is a good choice, but not so much for the influence of the automobile, but more so for the assembly line. If the car is the defining factor then you must dig back to the man who married the internal conbustion engine to a carraige (I don't know who that is, and it occured in the 19th century).

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The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The distinction is
yours to draw...

Omniscient; BAG

I think my vote would be for a guy named Konrad Zuse. In 1938 he built the first binary digital computer - the Z1.

Yes, I know that the true origins of the computer date back to the abacus, but building the binary digital computer was the big step, and Zuse took it.

Many others have taken computers in tremendous directions (Bill Gates, Nasa, etc...) But Zuse's work was the big step in this century which paved the way for them and the rest of us.

If the car is the defining factor then you must dig back to the man who married the internal conbustion engine to a carraige (I don't know who that is, and it occured in the 19th century).

Ah, but I'm not talking about the car itself, but about his making it available to the masses.

If the car remained an expensive luxury affordable only by society's elite, would we have such societal phenomena (just to give examples) as the suburb or the daily commute? I think the answe is no. Henry Ford's genius in making the car a part of ordinary people's everyday lives changed the world in a way no other twentieth-century development (electricity and the telephone belonging to the nineteenth) has.

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Chaim Mattis Keller
ckeller@schicktech.com

"Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks."
-- Douglas Adams's Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective

cmkeller you weren't listening. I said:Ford is a good choice, but not so much for the influence of the automobile, but more so for the assembly line. The point is that he made the car for the masses because of the assembly line. The influence he is responsible is the assembly line which made a variety of goods cheap and available to the masses. Yes the car is influential, but Ford really didn't innovate in cars. If you think the car is influential you must vote for Karl Benz (he invented the modern car in the late 1890's), if you think mass production is the most influential then you can vote for Ford. It is important that you seperate the to acheivements to be acurate.

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The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The distinction is
yours to draw...

Omniscient; BAG

I had an interesting talk with my roommates, both of whom are historians, about this (sort of). The form was slightly different though:
In five hundred years, you pull a guy off the street and ask him to name the great people of the 20th century. What names does he give? The guy has normal everyday general knowledge, but is not a historian.
By analogy, How many leaders in any field can YOU name from the 15th century? Without looking anything up, I mean. Everyone gets Columbus, of course, and riding his tails Ferdinand and Isabella (who are significant for other reasons, too, though most people's general knowledge is vague on that). Gutenberg, of course. And DaVinci lived into the 15th century, although many of his great achievments were earlier. I can't name a single Pope. There's a few kings here and there I can point to, mostly because they appear in Shakespeare. I'm doubtful that our own era is especially blessed with great men (and women) compared to other periods. Many of those who seem significant to us will be forgotten, and farily quickly.

My answers to the names everyone will know in 500 years are: Einstein, Hitler, Armstrong, and Gagarin. A grammar school treatment of 20th century history will note these people; I seriously doubt it would note Lucille Ball or even Jackie Robinson. A little prompting, however, might refresh people's minds to Stalin, Roosevelt, Goddard, Oppenheimer, and some others; and though I hate to say it, some of the great movie makers of today may be remembered the way we remember great writers of the past.

I would also note that the Time list is extremely unrealistic in its centering so thoroughly on Americans.

Well, APB, that's not really about the most influential people, but more about the most famous people and which ones you think have the most staying power in regard to fame.

As to most influential person of the 20th century, how about Philo T. Farnsworth?

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"We're gonna have lawyers here. It'll be a fun time."
--R.R.S.

personaly, I think that this centurys most influental person was Adolph Hitler....sure he wasnt a hero like many of the other choices, but I feel he has changed the world more than any of the others

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"In wildness is the preservation of the world, so seek the wolf inside thyself"

Just checked out the site and I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Elvis in first place? Madonna #14?
I voted for Chairman Mao. I think the inventors mentioned here are also worthy of the title.

Oh, please, enough with this namby-pambying and pinkotastic shilly-shallying -- it's J.R. fuckin' "Bob" Dobbs! He's saving the Earth from being turned into a giant space-Stuckey's by the Alien Bankers. 'Nuff said.

How about Martin Luther King?

Mikhail Gorbachev?

Lenin?

Dr. Christiaan Barnard (first successful heart transplant)?

The guys who cloned the sheep?



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sosumi

personaly, I think that this centurys most influental person was Adolph Hitler....sure he wasnt a hero like many of the other choices, but I feel he has changed the world more than any of the others
How can you argue he has changed the world? He did initiate the largest war in history, but he lost. The european borders were effectively returned to the state they were in before the war, his changes have been totally negated. The only lasting result is the creation of Israel, but that was done in spite of him. There are several subtle changes like the increased sensitivity to totalitarian governments and any small agressions. One may argue that he is the impetus of the US's position at the top of the food chain, but that is more a result of FDR than Hitler. It just goes to show that Hitler lost the war, period, and his influence is seconadry at best.

As for the rest of you who threw names out there fine, but support them. Why Philo T. Farnsworth? What makes him so influential? Why Gorbechev? What makes these people more signifigant that the others? I'd like to hear some reasoning.


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The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The distinction is
yours to draw...

Omniscient; BAG

Gorbachev was head of the Soviet Union during its dissolution, and, at least to my knowledge, pretty much engineered the whole thing. The dissolution of the Soviet Union ended the Cold War, removing the fear of having life on Earth wiped out by a major nuclear war. In my opinion, greatly changed the economic and political orientation of the entire world.

I think people's reaction to the break-up of the Soviet Union may differ depending on your age. I remember jumping up and down and cheering when I saw the announcement on TV, while the much younger people in the same room stared at me as if I was crazy. Their whole attitude seemed to be 'big deal' and I just couldn't understand it. But I grew up in fear of the bomb, with the knowledge that the US and USSR had, between them, the ability to destroy the world many times over. Also the knowledge that the situation had gone to the brink several times and that all it took was one irrational moment to start a global catastrophe. I think the younger generation grew up in an atmosphere where everyone had become numb to the fear, as all you could do was acknowledge it and try to live your life as best you could. I also think that people had, by the time that generation was born, managed to convince themselves that it would never happen because no one would be that insane - as though politicians could be considered sane.



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sosumi

coosa, I think you eed to study your history a bit more. If you haven't read it here is the link to Gorbechev's page (http://cgi.pathfinder.com/time/time100/leaders/profile/gorbachev.html) in the Time 100.

Gorbechev, while a moderate in the communist party, and a positive influence in the eyes of the west, was not very helpful in the fall of the USSR. The coup was against him and it removed him from office, he did not orchestrate it. He was in a sense the victim and the coup put his chief rival in power again (Yeltsin). The coup was very significant in its symoblism and the perception of the USSR's place in the world, but it really isn't the change you think it is. The coup didn't remove the risk of nuclear war (its still very much alive), it just symbolised the loss of the Soviets system of government. Gorbechev is great, but not because of the coup or nuclear war, he simply is a westernized commie (for lack of a better term).

As for why the younger generation was not that moved by the fall of the USSR. Well the writing was on the wall for a very long time, and most knew that a coup was a less stable, and ergo more dangerous, situation.

If nuclear war is that influential in your life, I'd suggest you put your votes in the Los Alamos crew, Oppenheimer, Fermi, etc. Possibly even Einstein if your big on the theory end and not the implementation. If fear of war shaped you life, then the cause of the fear seems more relavent than the alieviation of it.

Just some food for thought.

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The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The distinction is yours to draw...

Omniscient; BAG

Why Philo T. Farnsworth? What makes him so influential?

He's credited with the invention of television. I'll remember to put the obnoxious smiley face in next time, but probably still more influential than 90% of the people on the poll.

I knew what Philo did, I just wanted you to compare and contrast him to others had you been serious.

Omniscient wrote:

by the entire NASA and Russian space programs have been totally ignored, I think this is the biggest pile of shit

I actually agree with the decision to exclude them. What influence have they had on us? How many people live on the moon right now? Or even live in low Earth orbit?

The U.S. and Soviet manned space programs were political exercises in flexing their respective nationalistic muscles. The only real legacies we have of anything space-related are unmanned communications and GPS steallites, which were developed almost totally independently of either country's manned space program.

Tracer:

I actually agree with the decision to exclude them. What influence have they had on us? How many people live on the moon right now? Or even live in low Earth orbit?

Granted, none. But it was an inspirational moment which implied (if not necessarily proved) that humanity is capable of achieving whatever it puts its collective mind to. It has become a metaphor for outstanding achievement, as in "If they can put a man on the moon, why can't they...?"

Leaving aside the moon, there's quite a lot that we've learned from and benefited from experiments done in space or data collected in space. We may not live on the moon, but we know a lot more about the universe around us than we ever did before artificial satellites were launched.

The Time 100 included many people whose influence on the 20th century were less important than the pioneers of space. Granted, you may disagree with those choices as well. But there's a good number of those who I'd drop from the list to put Yuri Gagarin or the Apollo 11 crew in.

Chaim Mattis Keller

Uh, anything and everything that involves space is tied to each other. Sputnik and The appollo mission are both equaly responsible for the proliferation of every satillite orbiting the planet. The manned space program and the unmanned are not exclusive endevours. Most satillites use technology gleaned from both types of programs especially manuvering and communication packages. A large number of the satillites must be launched by manned shuttle as well.

Your assertions that only unmanned communications and GPS are signifigant influences, thats bullshit. There are things you use every day that wouldn't be possible without the myriad of space based systems. Have you gotten a weather forcast recently? Been online? Used a cell phone? Watched TV/Cable? Made an international phone call? And the military operations that we monopolize from space have kept us as the single dominant force in the world and will for years to come. I haven't even begun to list daily activities dependant on the greatest of human endeavours.

Omniscient:

Made an international phone call? And the military operations that we monopolize from space have kept us as the single dominant force in the world and will for years to come.

Watch those "we"'s. Not everyone who frequents this board is an American. (I am; I'm just pointing out the slip.)

Chaim Mattis Keller (Born in the USA!)

The most influential person this century was, without a doubt, Vladimir Lenin. If you accept that the Cold War was the most important event this century, since it drove the development of nuclear arsenals, the space race, and so forth-then the man ultimately responsible for its inception has to have been the most important man or woman this century. Without Lenin there's no Soviet Union, no spread of Marxism, no Russia v. US. This would have slowed technological and cultural advancement. Who knows where we'd be had East and West not competed for supremacy. Now, I'm no communist, far from it, but Lenin, I believe, was the 20th century's most important person.

Um, it takes two to tango, so what could possibly make Lenin more important than his western counter part? Your validation centers around the cold war as a combined event. I'd also argue that by many standards the cold war didn't exist before the advent of the nuclear bomb, in this case Lenin was long dead. Just more reason to lay the title on Oppenheimer.

It strikes me, although this might be invalid, that this whole discussion is only centered around the American part of the world. I mean, I don't hear people saying "Well, it should be Kawabata Yasunari because he elucidated a traditional art/psychology of a people and Oe Kenzaburo because he proceded to destroy that construct and set about the remaking of literary tradition..." Obviously, however, Time is an American magazine and should deal with American interests... and America _is_ a big part of the world, although not necessarily as big a part as its promoters and detractors might say. But still, I don't think they should be called "the most important people of the last 100 years" if they're really "The most importnat people related to America in the last 100 years."
Having said that, I think that the development of nuclear weapons has had an effect on the nature of humanity world-wide, leading to e.g. the philosophy of postmodernism (I may be wrong here) and even anti-rationalism. I think that the people who were involved in those events definitely belong on this list.

APB9999 says: And DaVinci lived into the 15th century, although many of his great

achievments were earlier.

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You Know it kind of proves your point that most folks arn't too big on the15th century (that this is two weeks after your post) but Leonardo was born in the fifteenth century (1452) and lived into the sixteenth century (died 1519)

When I see lists like these, I tend to ask myself this - was the person replaceable? Did they do something completely unique that NO ONE else could have done?

Atheletes, astronauts, physical contests - there's always someone better, eventually. No big deal.

Country leaders are a dime a dozen. If Stalin had been killed it would have been Trotsky. Revolutions attach themselves to whatever personality is dominant, so even Hitler isn't that important. The base conflict that was WWII began in WWI.

Scientists are more concrete, but even Einstein had rivals doing much of the same work. He's merely the famous one.

Artists are very individualistic, but all they do is paint and write books and play music and look pretty.

Businessmen are powerful and influential, but all they do is play with money, almost always with disgust for the common people.

I would tend to go for an artist-type, mostly for emotional reasons. I'd say Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) would do for the 19th century, but I can't think of an equivilent figure for the 20th.

barton - How about Robert Fulghum? (Note: as a twentieth century Mark Twain, not as a top person of the century.)

barton wrote:

Scientists are more concrete, but even Einstein had rivals doing much of the same work. He's merely the famous one.

When it somes to Special Relativity, yes. Special Relativity was "in the air" in Einstein's day and would've eventually been discovered. My high school physics prof. claimed that if J.C. Maxwell had lived 10 more years, he would've discovered Special Relativity.

When it comes to General Relativity, though, Einstein stands alone. He plucked General Relativity completely out of left field. We would've had to wait around at least another half century (if not a whole century) for General Relativity to have been developed if Einstein hadn't been around.

Please -- it's J.R. "Bob" fuckin' Dobbs!

I can't believe the entertiners on the list! Including sports heros & the "tabloid celebrities" (Princess Di??,Elvis???? Lucy [Ball, not Leaky's]???). I believe that Hitler was the most influential person of the century! By sarting WW II, He (inadvertently) brought about all the advances in science & medicine that came from, or were accelerated, because of it. Most of thoes would have been made, but without Hitler's war, advances would have come much slower! We may have gotten to the moon much later had it not been for the early advances in rocketry, ment to kill & destroy, but advances, none the less. Huge advances in medicine are atributable to this mad man's war. Manufacturing advanced greatly due to the "war effort". Computer science was advanced due to the need to break the enemy's code. Electronics & communications benefitted greatly. And the changes in the human condition that all the death & distruction caused by the war. If we seek a hero, he isn't, but we are well ahead of where we might be without Hitler"s War! Has any other person so greatly influenced so much of our century in so many ways?

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Zymurgist

I can't believe the entertiners on the list! Including sports heros & the "tabloid celebrities" (Princess Di??,Elvis???? Lucy [Ball, not Leaky's]???). I believe that Hitler was the most influential person of the century! By sarting WW II, He (inadvertently) brought about all the advances in science & medicine that came from, or were accelerated, because of it. Most of thoes would have been made, but without Hitler's war, advances would have come much slower! We may have gotten to the moon much later had it not been for the early advances in rocketry, ment to kill & destroy, but advances, none the less. Huge advances in medicine are atributable to this mad man's war. Manufacturing advanced greatly due to the "war effort". Computer science was advanced due to the need to break the enemy's code. Electronics & communications benefitted greatly. And the changes in the human condition that all the death & distruction caused by the war. If we seek a hero, he isn't, but we are well ahead of where we might be without Hitler"s War! Has any other person so greatly influenced so much of our century in so many ways?

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Zymurgist

[Carl Berry]

But, I repeat myself!

[Konrad]

If you say Hitler then why not Stalin? He killed more people, controlled more people, brought about the cold war, was responsable for the USSR getting the bomb and he would have started WW2 even if Hitler didn't.

And that's not mentioning how many countries became communist because of him.

[tracer]

On that note, I'd like to nominate Dr. Edwin (?) Teller for membership in the Top 100 Most Influential People of the Century.

The man is almost single-handedly responsible for developing the hydrogen bomb. Without the H-Bomb, which can be up to a thousand times as destructive as an "ordinary" A-bomb, it would have been impossible to annihilate an entire country in one fell swoop. The H-bomb made the *ahem* lofty goal of instant genocide achievable, and thus, we entered upon the cold war's stance of Mutually-Assured Destruction (M.A.D.).

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I'm not flying fast, just orbiting low.

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

I vote for the person, or persons, who invented The Pill.
Also the conspirators who assassinated archduke Ferdinand (was that his name? I think so) to start World War I. That, I think, is this century's most seminal event. The Russian Revolution, World War II, Hitler, Stalin, et al. were fallout from that war