ARG220 and Mormonism [Archive] - Straight Dope Message Board

09-10-1999, 07:57 PM

Okay, Adam, but this means you can't say that I didn't try to be reasonable with you and listen to your words, and you can't say that I ignored the "contradictions" you are so fond of pointing out in other threads.

Put up or shut up. And I don't mean that in a mean way, just don't go around telling people how Mormons are so unwilling to listen to you, when you are given this golden opportunity to discuss, to your heart's content, all those things that bother you about Mormonism. You forfeit the right to credibility when you refuse to discuss the issues.

Gaudere

09-10-1999, 09:11 PM

Why *don't* you guys discuss it? One issue, gone over calmly...I like it. Do the Satan/Jesus thing if you like. If y'all keep it civil and logical I might learn something.

However, since Adam does not accept the BOM as scripture Snark will have to stick to the NT/OT. Can you do it under those circumstances? I know the BOM is scripture to you, but since it isn't to Adam you cannot prove anything *to him* through it. It's like Adam trying to reinterpret the Jewish reading of the OT by citing the NT. Snark can certainly give the Mormon interpretation of the NT/OT, but cites from the BOM won't do any good towards convincing Adam.

Geez, I sound like a referee.

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"Eppur, si muove!" - Galileo Galilei

09-10-1999, 09:31 PM

It would be very hard indeed to discuss Mormonism without referring to scriptural references in the Book of Mormon. But this wouldn't necessarily be a debate or an attempt to convert each other. It would just be a discussion. Maybe we could select a referee to keep things civil.

Monty

09-10-1999, 09:56 PM

Well, folks; I'll list a few references here and y'all can use the handy link below to check them out if you don't have a Bible handy at the moment. And they'll only be references from the Old and New Testaments (King James Version (Protestant) unless otherwise indicated).

Job 38:7
Numbers 24:17 (NASB)
Revelations 22:16 (NASB)
Isaiah 14:12 (NASB)
Job 1:6 (NASB)
Job 1:7-12
Jude 6
Revelations 12:7-9
John 20:17

http://service-net.org/ws.cfm

These are the verses which one LDS author uses to describe what he sees as the fact of Lucifer's family relationship to not only Jesus but also to all humanity. This of course does not imply that Jesus and Lucifer are on the "same side" so to speak. It's like it was pointed out before on this board--JC and Luci are at odds just like siblings, one of whom becomes a priest and the other who becomes a robber. The fact that one brother is a robber does not make the other any less of a priest.

Gaudere

09-10-1999, 10:03 PM

It would be valid to use the BOM to clarify the Mormon perspective, but the NT/OT is the only common ground you two have; otherwise you two will just say, "this is true""no it's not". I am not even sure how someone outside the conflict, like an atheist, would judge; you both believe your books are correct. How could someone judge whose books are *more* correct, without belief in either one? I guess you would have to judge which books/interpretations were the most logical, straightforward and internally consistent.

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"Eppur, si muove!" - Galileo Galilei

Monty

09-10-1999, 10:18 PM

Guadere: why don't you be the ref and I can be one of the coaches?

Maybe we can work it this way:
-The contestants will be Snarkberry and ARG220.
-They'll each take turns posting.
-If one feels that a posting might be out of line or off the topic of the moment, he'll check with his coach and then post at the bottom of that posting "coached" so's we know he thought about it.
-If you, as referee think something's not all the way there or maybe too much there, you can state that and ask the contestant to reword the post.
-Given the nature of the internet, the next response from the other contestant should't appear for say 12 hours after your recommendation.
-Let's limit the discussion to just that: discussion or observation. This should be a description of "that" and "why" for the most part; not an evaluation of "right" and "wrong."
-You, as the referee, will be more like a judge in a small claims court.

And most important, since I've been using the term "contestant," C3 is not one of the parties to the contest!

Cheers!
-Chip

09-10-1999, 10:28 PM

Gaudere: The thing is that Mormons think that the BOM is JUST AS VALID as the Bible. They think BOTH books are the word of God. They think BOTH are just as infalible as the other. So, even an atheist could dismantle the very foundations of the LDS church, by simply pointing out how the teachings of the BOM, and D&C (which they also base their religion on) don't line up with the Bible. Only one book can be correct, right? You can't have two books that contradict each other, and still hold that BOTH of them are God's true Word, right? Yet that is exactly what Mormons do. Go ahead Gaudere, read the Bible, and BOM. Then maybe you can talk to the mormons, and show them the contradictions.

Note: Did you notice how both Monty and Bill failed to address any of the issues that Smiling Jaws mentioned in Ancient History, I Know, But...?
God is and was not ever a man--he is omniscient, omnipresent, and all powerful. He has existed in all time and space and will do so for eternity. To believe that he was once a man is to demean his greatness, his Godliness, and the nature of his Supreme Being. It is heretical and blasphemous to believe that God was once a man.
God's Son is Jesus. Jesus is both wholly man and wholly God. He was born of a virgin--not born the physical son of a god-man and Mary.

Lucifer was once an angel--not one of the sons of God. He attempted to set himself up as equal to God and he has become God's enemy. Satan is NOT Jesus' brother--indeed he is not a MAN he is a fallen ANGEl. Men do not become angels. Angels do not become Men.

No man can become a God. The very idea is blasphemous. The sheer arrogance of that thought is astounding.

There is no marriage in heaven--Jesus himself declared this. God doesn't have wives. There are no spirit babies which form the souls of earthly babies.

Man is saved solely through the Grace of God. His position in relation to God is that of dross before purity. God is so awe inspiring that man cannot even look at him except through the Grace of Jesus.

God does not call men to heaven with secret names. God does not let men call their wives to heaven with secret names. God is not bound by the ceremonies of man so there is no need for ceremonial baptism of the dead. Living people are baptized as a visible sign to the world that they chose to be followers of Christ. Baptism is one of the holiest and sacred of ceremonies. Christian faiths differ on their practice of baptism, but all believe it is important and not simply a prayer or wish for God's grace. It is a holy act of devotion on the part of the servant toward his God.
How about all of those?

Go for it boys. Twist God's Word until your heart's content. Rationalize the night away. I'm out of here, and for now, I'm shutting up. you guys can handle this without me for a while.

Adam

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"Life is hard...but God is good"

09-10-1999, 10:29 PM

I'm game. Maybe Furt could coach Adam. But there is one problem: Adam has promised not to talk about Mormonism any more on the SDMB. If we can get him to change his mind, fine. If not, we'll have to respect his decision not to discuss the subject.

09-10-1999, 10:34 PM

Adam wrote:

Note: Did you notice how both Monty and Bill failed to address any of the issues that Smiling Jaws mentioned in Ancient History, I Know, But...?

I did reply to that post, Adam. I said, "I disagree." As in, "I disagree with practically everything you just said." I felt that a short reply was preferable to a 500-page essay refuting every point he raised (g).

Gaudere

09-10-1999, 10:45 PM

Maybe Jeffery could be Adam's coach. He has been very sensible to me. I agree that it shouldn't be a matter of "right" or "wrong", but you should be able to say "and *that's* why my interpretation makes the most sense". Use logic and scripture; your priest's or church's views can be mentioned, but they are *opinions* and not The Truth.

No insults here (or at least tone it down!). We don't need "You are twisting God's words." Try, "No, that interpretation is not the best, because look at x, y, z". Don't bring in side topics.

And could you post the scripture you are referring to? I can look it up, but it gets hard to remember what people are referring to 12 posts later, and I think the other SDMBers feel the same.

I am amenable to being the ref; as an atheist, for me it is much like arguing over the color of Santa's boots. I do not want to have to declare a "winner"; I am a ref, not a judge. If your logic is clear and your cites strong, it will speak for itself.

I admit I like some of the LDS ideas, but I think some are truly bizarro (no offense, *my* beliefs would appear bizarro if taken out of context and reduced to one sentance). Adam sometimes annoys me, but I bear him no deep grudge. I have read a fair amount of the Bible (I'll finish it someday) and a tiny little bit of the BOM, but I will mostly depend on you guys for cites. Is that "full disclosure" enough? Is David B gonna get miffed if I infringe on his baliwick?

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"Eppur, si muove!" - Galileo Galilei

09-10-1999, 11:28 PM

Adam wrote:

Note: Did you notice how both Monty and Bill failed to address any of the issues that Smiling Jaws mentioned in Ancient History, I Know, But...?

Note: Did you notice how Adam backs out of every attempt I make to discuss religion with him? I've tried e-mail--he didn't respond to me. Now I've tried the SDMB repeatedly. He wiggles out of every invitation for discussion, saying things like, "I could talk until I'm blue in the face and you still wouldn't listen." Okay, Adam, so talk till you're blue in the face and prove that I won't listen. Otherwise, I'll have to call your bluff and say that you're just too insecure in your religion and too ignorant of Mormonism to be confident in such a discussion as I propose. Sad.

Kat

09-10-1999, 11:36 PM

09-10-1999, 11:37 PM

Bill: -Sigh- Do you want to know the truth? Or do you just want to argue. I'm really good at arguing, and I love it, but it never does any good.

Look, if you're looking for the truth, then go out and buy those books I told you about. You know, the ones at your local Bible bookstore? They will show you each Mormon contradiction, in step by step detail. Just seek God for yourself my friend. Go to your local Pentecostal church, or even Baptist church, or even Catholic church and ask to speak to a pastor about the contradictions in your religion. You'll find that face to face communication will do a thousand times what I can do here, or even, what SoxFan, or Pickman...etc could do here.

Just calm down, stop the hate, and seek the Father.

Adam

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"Life is hard...but God is good"

Gaudere

09-10-1999, 11:38 PM

Snark, you and/or Adam should pick a topic. Just one. And Adam should keep in mind that I will slap him down if he cites a human author as if they possess The Truth. An author saying "this is not so" is no proof without reasons to back it up. You get scripture and your brain; that's all. You can cite an author or priest if they say something particularly well, but they are *not* the word of God.

And Snark, if Adam is backing out we'll know; you don't need to mention it. He hasn't "officially" agreed to this anyhow.

Ahh! I think the power has gone to my head!! ;) ;)

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"Eppur, si muove!" - Galileo Galilei

09-10-1999, 11:45 PM

Hey Kat, you slipped that post in underneath mine.I vote that after Snark and ARG's Mormanism Discussion that ARG has to have a Christianity Discussion with one of the Jewish posters using only the Jewish Bible (Old Testament) to back Christianity. Well Kat, I'm game with that. Except that it'd be a LOT tougher that anything Bill could throw at me.
Because we know that never happens with the Old Testament and the New Testament, right? Right! Now you're catching on. ;)

Gaudere: If I wanted to go against Bill, and all the Mormons, you wouldn't be able to stop me. You wouldn't even be able to contain me. ;) I'd rock the very foundations of their religion to the core, and they'd all be weeping from guilt and sorrow when I was through with them. BUT, I really don't have the millenia that it would take to fully convince these guys, so I think it's best that they find out the Truth for themselves, by buying those books, and seeking help IRL, outside the SDMB.

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"Life is hard...but God is good"

09-10-1999, 11:56 PM

Adam wrote:

Bill: -Sigh- Do you want to know the truth? Or do you just want to argue. I'm really good at arguing, and I love it, but it never does any good.

Oh, I know the truth, Adam. And no, this would not necessarily be an argument, just a discussion.

Look, if you're looking for the truth, then go out and buy those books I told you about. You know, the ones at your local Bible bookstore? They will show you each Mormon contradiction, in step by step detail.

Which books are you talking about? Jerald and Sandra Tanner's book, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality, or maybe Ed Decker's The Godmakers? Perhaps Floyd McElveen's (sp?) The Bible: Final, Infallible and Forever? That Ed Decker really writes a hilarious book. And the Tanners? :::Snort::: Maybe Fawn Brodie's book, No Man Knows My History? Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults? You see, Adam, I'm familiar with at least some of the works of anti-Mormons, and they have *not* impressed me as being truthful. Or did you have some other books in mind?

I will once again offer to make a deal with you. You're so concerned about my soul, put your money where your mouth is and order a Book of Mormon and read it. I'll read yours if you'll read mine. C'mon, isn't my cooperation with your suggestion worth a few nights' worth of reading the BoM? Or would that be too traumatic for you?

Just seek God for yourself my friend. Go to your local Pentecostal church, or even Baptist church, or even Catholic church and ask to speak to a pastor about the contradictions in your religion. You'll find that face to face communication will do a thousand times what I can do here, or even, what SoxFan, or Pickman...etc could do here.

Just calm down, stop the hate, and seek the Father.

I don't hate you.

Gaudere

09-11-1999, 12:00 AM

Uh, Adam, ever hear of "pride goeth before a fall"? I'm not *half* so arrogant with my atheism. I know you're kidding and all, but when I run across an intelligent person who believes something I think is insane, I think "Hm, maybe I don't understand. I should look into this further, and talk to them." Then I do some research on the topic, and discuss it with them. Then talk with some other people who believe the same. Then some more research. *Then*, I can say I think they're misguided. But not before.

You're not a terribly good debater, Adam. You rely too much on the words of others and not on reason and facts. :( Snark may do so as well, I don't know. I think it would be good for your skills to debate, and certainly do no harm. After all, think of this as practice for the Jew/Christian debate!

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"Eppur, si muove!" - Galileo Galilei

09-11-1999, 12:12 AM

Adam wrote:

Gaudere: If I wanted to go against Bill, and all the Mormons, you wouldn't be able to stop me. You wouldn't even be able to contain me. I'd rock the very foundations of their religion to the core, and they'd all be weeping from guilt and sorrow when I was through with them.

Now THIS is funny! :::giggle:::

Gaudere

09-11-1999, 12:20 AM

OK, guys, the next post better be an offer of a topic, or I'm out of here. Smug back-and-forth posts educate no one. Pick your weapon, you two.

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"Eppur, si muove!" - Galileo Galilei

09-11-1999, 12:28 AM

Okay, Guad. Here's a suggested topic:

What is the nature of God (in other words, what characteristics does He have)?

Adam, you go first. Ask me one question about the nature of God, one that you are interested in knowing the LDS perspective of. And remember, I get some time to do a little research before replying.

09-11-1999, 01:25 AM

Gaudere: Yea, I was kidding, didn't you see my little wink? ;) And I never said I was a great debater, just that I'm good at arguing. I don't think the two mean the same thing. And come to think of it, I'd rather not go at it with the likes of Dex, Keeves, and CMKeller. They'd all eat lil' old me for lunch! ;) (I mean, I like a challenge and all, but there's only so far you can go on the 'Net.)

Bill: I'm sorry. I just went through and browsed many web sites dealing with the contradictions of Mormonism. It's truly sad, because your very own BOM contradicts itself, as does every other thing you read. My dear Lord, it's all one big ball of lies, and confusion. No wonder you don't know what's up or down. :( If you read those books that I reccomended, and found them to be funny, then I'm sorry, but I can't help you here. You need God to reveal Himself to you personally, in a real way. I'm sorry Bill, but I'm out. If someone else wants to step up and take a crack at debunking Mormonism, then so be it. But I'm not willing to. Not here, not now.

Adam

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"Life is hard...but God is good"

Gaudere

09-11-1999, 01:39 AM

I kid too, but I think I've been pretty respectful.

If you don't want to debate, we will abide by your decision. That's too bad, though.

I can find sites that show the contradictions *within* the OT/NT testament. Heck, I can find websites that say giant glowing alien racoons exist. The net is not the whole world; I think you should listen to Snark and Chaim, Keeves, etc. with at least as open a mind as I have (wicked, unrepentant atheist though I am). I don't think the Mormons are necessarily any more misguided than anybody else. Your condescending attitude reflects badly on you.

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"Eppur, si muove!" - Galileo Galilei

Monty

09-11-1999, 01:42 AM

ARG220, Member, posted on 09-11-1999 at 01:25 AM the stuff between the quote lines; my responses are between those quotations.

Bill: I'm sorry. I just went through and browsed many web sites dealing with the contradictions of Mormonism.

Good. Now please browse some sites dealing with the contradictions of the Bible and "mainstream" Christianity and then tell us what your conclusion is. After all, "fair's fair" and what you are presenting is a one-sided argument.

It's truly sad, because your very own BOM contradicts itself,

And this you know exactly how? You have yet to read the book yourself to determine if what you are told by those sites you've perused are telling you the truth about it. I'm guessing here, but I'm really starting to think you don't trust yourself to make your own determinations. Another thing is that the Bible itself contradicts itself. Please be so kind as to apply the same standard of acceptance to it or cease and desist.

as does every other thing you read.

Would this include those sites you mentioned above?

My dear Lord, it's all one big ball of lies, and confusion.

That is quite obviously an opinion, yet you pronounce it as a fact. And again, I ask of you: Exactly how have you come to that conclusion when you have yet to read the thing for yourself?

No wonder you don't know what's up or down.

Um, Adam? I'd love to talk with you but it's kind of hard when you're talking to yourself.

If you read those books that I reccomended, and found them to be funny, then I'm sorry, but I can't help you here.

Some folks I know have read the Bible and told me they find it to be quite funny. Yet, we have grand discussions about religion, theology, culture, and other things. These discussions are quite amicable--over dinner, over lunch, sipping lemonade, etc. But since those folks are Muslims, I'm sure you'd not listen to a word they'd have to say.

You need God to reveal Himself to you personally, in a real way.

Wait a second here! Isn't that what Snarkberry's been telling you?

I'm sorry Bill, but I'm out. If someone else wants to step up and take a crack at debunking Mormonism, then so be it. But I'm not willing to. Not here, not now.

You left out "not capable of doing it." I don't know; maybe the LDS Church is deserving of debunking. You might recall that I explicitly stated that I do not discount that opinion although I don't share it. But of one thing I am certain here: You, ARG220, are definitely incapable of so doing.

09-11-1999, 02:05 AM

Adam:

Scenario: It is 33 A.D. Christ has been resurrected and has departed into the heavens. There are angry Jews who hate Christ for his words (the truth hurts). You are, say, a Roman soldier who is wondering what all the hubbub is about. Someone tells you that the King of the Jews has been killed. Apalled, you decide to ask some of the Pharisees that killed Christ, just what His teachings were. These angry Jews tell you all sorts of lies, distortions, made-up stories, and deceptions about Christ. You begin to wonder if maybe these people had a good reason to kill Christ. Then you notice something: there are some Jews who aren't preaching against Christ, but who are proclaiming Him as the true Messiah. They tell you wonderful stories about His miracles, His love for all mankind, and His selfless sacrifice so that all mankind could be saved.

My question: which of the following two groups would be telling you the truth about Christ?

A) The angry Pharisees who would do anything to discredit Him; OR

B) The humble followers of Christ who only wish to share the awesome experiences they had with Him, and their testimonies of His divinity?

If you answer "A", there's no hope for you.

Now, apply that to what you've just seen on all those anti-Mormon web sites. Who would you expect to give you reliable, accurate information about the LDS church?

A) Angry malcontents who have nothing better to do than tell lies about the LDS church, and who would say just about anything to get you to believe that it is a false religion; OR

B) Humble followers of Christ who are LDS and who wish to share with you the joys of the gospel they have found?

Hint: if you choose "A", you're gullible as heck, and a perfect target for evil men to tell lies to. Go to the pro-LDS sites, and you will find quite a different story than the anti's will tell you about.

David B

09-11-1999, 07:59 AM

Darnit! Kat already pointed out what I was gonna say about ARG's claim of two books contradicting each other, etc.

Between this and his previous statements against the Mormons of how they ignore evidence, etc., it really is apparent that he has two different standards: One for himself, one for everybody else.

pldennison

09-11-1999, 09:00 AM

Oh, man, I finally figured it out: Adam is from Bizzarro Earth, the strange square planet where everything is the opposite of what it is here.

I mean, first, he saysOnly one book can be correct, right? You
can't have two books that contradict each other, and still hold that BOTH of them are
God's true Word, right?

Hilarious. Adam, I can find you consecutive books in both the OT and the NT which say contradictory things about the same event. You don't even want to go there.

Then, after establishing contradiction as a criterion for falsehood, he has the stupidity to quote someone who, in a single paragraph, manages to say:

God is and was not ever a man--he is omniscient, omnipresent, and all
powerful. He has existed in all time and space and will do so for eternity.
To believe that he was once a man is to demean his greatness, his
Godliness, and the nature of his Supreme Being. It is heretical and
blasphemous to believe that God was once a man.
God's Son is Jesus. Jesus is both wholly man and wholly God.

Taken as a whole, the content of this paragraph is zero, as it is completely self-contradictory.

Then, he goes on to ignore every admonition from Paul about being boastful, and describes how he could destroy Monty, Bill and the entire LDS church with a determined effort. I'm sure smarter people than Adam have tried, and yet it goes on.

Man oh man oh man . . . I love waking up to this stuff. Starting the day with a laugh is the best way to go.

Monty

09-11-1999, 11:30 AM

PLD: I wager you're correct about ARG's planet of origin. Heck, he even equates "good at getting into arguments" with "good at arguing."

Monty

09-11-1999, 04:17 PM

This pronouncement from ARG220 -I'm sorry Bill, but I'm out. If someone else wants to step up and take a crack at debunking Mormonism, then so be it. But I'm not willing to. Not here, not now. - fits in nicely with one of my pet theories.

I've maintained for a couple of years now that folks such as ARG220 arrive on the SDMB scene because they're ordered to by their faith leader. Once their "mission" is over (in this case, I'm using "over" as in "met the allotted time to do what you're told to do"), they're off and running to another board populated by us raving heathen types who usually inhabit boards such as the SDMB.

Who wants to wager we see a "new and improved" version of ARG220 within the next two weeks?

vanillanice

09-11-1999, 04:29 PM

May I suggest a steel cage match between Arg and Snark(btw,thats what I call my son,as an endearment!).2 rounds,no time-outs. Anyone here willing to pay to see this? ;)

Gaudere

09-11-1999, 04:35 PM

Who wants to wager we see a "new and improved" version of ARG220 within the next two weeks?

Maybe with each apology they switch off! Then any change in tone/style would be attributed to "trying to change my attitude".

Sheesh. ARGuing with Adam is like trying to empty the ocean with a sieve.

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"Eppur, si muove!" - Galileo Galilei

pldennison

09-11-1999, 04:46 PM

I was having a long talk with my wife this morning, over breakfast, telling her about Adam and some of the other discussions on the board. This is a woman who, from age 12 until after we were married, was as "on fire for the Lord" as you can get. She was at the church in some capacity seven days a week, with dance practice, drama practice, band practice, youth services, bible studies--you name it. She spoke in tongues (still can), the whole nine yards.

Anyway, she told me that, when her faith started to falter was when one of the pastors in her church became a sort of militaist/survivalist, started preaching that God was coming back within the month, started collecting weapons, and moved into the woods and took a bunch of members with him. I don't know what the ultimate outcome was; I wasn't around. But she told me that many in the church started telling her that what he was saying was not of God, that God would never order such things, etc.

So she started thinking, "Why wouldn't God tell him these things? He told people things like this all the time in the Bible." So she decided that, either he could as easily be telling this pastor those things now as he told the Biblical characters what he did; or the voice of God was no more real today than it was then. She ultimately decided on the latter.

She said that, having been on both sides now, and learned so much about how the world is for real, she understands Adam's attitude. She said it's great to really beleive that there is some ultimate authority in the universe, and that he actually cares about you as an individual, cares what you think. She completely sympathisizes with the "ignorance is bliss" attitude. But she doesn't understand this need to inflict that ignorance on others, and she's more glad that she's less ignorant now.

She also said that she thinks speaking in tongues sounds Spanish, and that it is nothing more that an autohypnotic method of tapping straight into the language center of your brain and letting the phonemes fly with no semantic content at all.

09-11-1999, 08:05 PM

Bill: Your little quiz actually made sense. You do have a point that those site may be lying about the BOM, and D&C...etc. So, the only way to find out of they are lying is to buy a BOM, and get a copy of the D&C, and see for myself. I do tend to have faith in my fellow brethren who are probably NOT lying on those web sites, but I see your point.

Phil: I admit that I should have actually READ Smiling Jaws' quote before I posted it. Upon reading it, I think he/she just made the error of not distiguishing between God the Father and God the Son. Sure, God the Father was never man, He has always been a spirit. BUT, Jesus WAS a man. So, I think that's what he was trying to say.

I think I'd like to talk to your wife Phil. I realize you probably think this is a horrible idea, but at least she didn't say things like "The Bible is stupid, and 'F' Adam and Eve," like someone I know. Maybe, if it was ok with you, and she actually wanted to, then she could E-mail me? It's just an idea.

Monty: Your theory on me is off. Let me explain. I've been hanging around the SD for two years, but only started posting back in May. Yes, my first post was about religion, but nobody I know, knows that I'm even posting here (except for a really good female friend of mine). I was on a mission to save the world. But as I said before, I got in the way of Jesus, and Furt pointed that out to me. I'm still quite comfortable posting religious topics, but you see that I've changed my stance. Oh, and I don't post on any other boards, and I probably never will. I love the SD too much. :)

To all: Look guys, I was ready to go at with Bill, and Monty, and whoever else wanted to argue with me. Believe me, the prospect of arguing without anyone saying it's bad is very tempting. But my gut feeling is to leave this one alone. I gotta go with my gut, or actually, what the Holy Spirit is telling me. You may say I'm coping out, or that I realize that I'm incapable of debunking Mormonism. Well, go ahead, say whatever. But I must do, what I feel is right, and that's say nothing at all.

Oh yea, and my boastful post about how I could destroy Monty and Bill was in jest. I should have made that more clear. Plus, I was caught up in the moment, and said some stupid stuff. So, I hope none of you think I'm that arrogant.

One last thing. Phil, your comment on Bizzaro Adam was actually pretty funny. And I'm glad you enjoy waking up to my foolishness. Glad I can brighten your day. ;)

Adam

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"Life is hard...but God is good"

Monty

09-11-1999, 08:55 PM

Upon reading it, I think he/she just made the error of not distiguishing between God the Father and God the Son. Sure, God the Father was never man, He has always been a spirit. BUT, Jesus WAS a man.

Yo, Snark! That bit just above this sentence is Adam implying agreement with one part of LDS doctrine! I already dialled 9-1; just let me know if I need to hit the other digit.

Monty

09-11-1999, 08:58 PM

Well, Adam; I really don't think you've changed your stance all that much. You recently posted a lie. That is, you posted that I said something I didn't say. Or are you apologizing for that lie now? If so; I'll give it the usual 24-hour litmus test.

09-11-1999, 09:21 PM

Honestly Monty, I haven't a clue what you're talking about. What lie, when, how? Please point out EXACTLY what you said, and then EXACTLY what I said, and we'll go from there.

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"Life is hard...but God is good"

09-11-1999, 09:45 PM

Monty: Could it be? Keep your hand on that phone!

Adam: Here's the link to order a free BOM: Free Book of Mormon (http://www.lds.org/en/1_Free_BOM/FreeBOM.html)

I'm glad you thought I made sense...I've never received a greater compliment! ;)

Gaudere

09-11-1999, 10:28 PM

Thanks for the link, Snark. I ordered one. But they better be serious about not calling on you if you click the "no" button! Some of the people who witness door-to-door make Adam look like a bastion of logic and reasonableness.

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"Eppur, si muove!" - Galileo Galilei

09-11-1999, 10:49 PM

You're welcome, Guad. I'm sure they will respect your desire not to be contacted. :)

09-11-1999, 10:53 PM

Oops, I mean "Gaud," not "Guad."

Monty

09-12-1999, 12:27 AM

What lie, you ask, Adam? When, you ask, Adam? Here's a copy of my posting in the "Ancient History, I know, but" thread:
Monty
Member posted 09-10-1999 08:41 PM
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ARG220, Member, posted a lie on 09-10-1999 at 05:59 PM, to wit:

quote:
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Both you, and Monty have said that you don't see any contradictions in the Bible vs. BOM, and that you have both studied the Bible.
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And as Adam himself asked me, I am pointing that out to him.

Adam: what I did say was in response you your asking how the Book of Mormon could be true with all its contradicitons; contradictions of which you yourself have no knowledge because you refuse to read the thing for yourself. I merely pointed out that the Bible also contains contradictions.

Let us assume that the Old and New Testaments are part of the one Bible. Then let's cruise on over to Exodus 20:7 which states:

quote:
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Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
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Now Matthew 12:21 states:

quote:
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Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
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Now, I'd say that "all manner of sin and blasphemy" would include that which was explicitly stated in Exodus as something for which the Lord would not hold someone guiltless.

Looks to me like a contradiction. But then I never said that either the Bible nor the Book of Mormon was without them.

You did, Adam. You also lied when you said that I said the Book of Mormon was without contradiction.

Now here's your chance to admit you lied recently. (See above.)

Does this aid your feeble memory, son?

Monty

09-12-1999, 12:29 AM

Would the moderator be so kind as to resize my posting above so the thing fits in the browser window.

09-12-1999, 01:41 AM

All right Monty. Here we go...again.

I saidBoth you, and Monty have said that you don't see any contradictions in the Bible vs. BOM, and that you have both studied the Bible.
You say this is a lie. Note, I said Bible VS BOM

I'll show you that it isn't a lie.

In Life in Heaven: Part 3 I said that:When you compare certain teachings of the Mormon faith against the Bible, they are in direct contradiction.
To which YOU responded on 8-5-99:Not when I compare them, young'un.

Then I saidDo you care that the LDS church has perverted God's Holy Word?
To which Monty replied:I don't believe the LDS have perverted the Word

See Monty? No lies. And I never said that you said there were no contradictions in the BOM itself. I've been talking about Bible VS BOM, or more specifically, Bible VS Mormon teachings, i.e BOM, D&C...and whatever else you use.

Please don't accuse me of lying again. Thank you.

Adam

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"Life is hard...but God is good"

Czarcasm

09-12-1999, 02:09 AM

Adam, until you actually read the Book of Mormon any comparisons and/or contradictions you have to make are worthless. Note that this is my opinion and not "truth" or "fact" as you so often mis-use the words. BTW, arrogant statements followed by happy or winky faces get tedious after a while. It says If you agree with this statement, fine. If you don't, I was just kidding.

Momotaro

09-12-1999, 02:13 AM

Ahem, I think you guys are worrying about meaningless distinctions. I trust what comes from my own heart, not from a book. I don't worry about things I can never verify and that don't have any moral significance anyway.

Just be good.

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Only humans do inhuman things.

Kat

09-12-1999, 04:00 AM

I have a question for ARG: Why do you get all het up about possible contradictions between the Christian Bible and the Book or Mormon (which, I understand, YOU HAVE NEVER READ so have NO BASIS for making an evaluation) yet seem to have no problems with contradictions that occur within the Christian Bible (as evidenced by a responses of one little happy face and then complete lack of acknowledgement when it is brought up)?

David B

09-12-1999, 09:05 AM

Gaudere said:Some of the people who witness door-to-door make Adam look like a bastion of logic and reasonableness.Of course, if you just close the door in their faces, you don't have to worry about that. :)

pldennison

09-12-1999, 09:41 AM

I can assure you, Adam, my wife does not want to talk to you. She gave up letting religious nutbags preach to, witness to, and try to "re-save" her a long time ago, and hasn't the slightest desire to go through it again. She gave me permission to use her comments on the message board, but she has gone through so much pain because of people just like you, I am not going to inflict it on her again.

pldennison

09-12-1999, 01:08 PM

Adam, I didn't discourage you in any way. I said, "You know the guy I told you about from the SDMB? He wants to know if you can e-mail you." She gave me a one-word answer: "No."

I've told you and everyone else on this MB as much of my story vis a vis religion as you could possible need to know. It's not my fault you haven't read it.

Oh, BTW, nothing happened to our hearts. Something happened to our brains. It's called "learning." You ought to try it sometime.

09-12-1999, 01:21 PM

Adam, here's a couple of pro-LDS sites you can read through if you want to:

Response to anti-Mormon Critics (http://www.lightplanet.com/response/)

All About Mormons (http://www.mormons.org)

matt_mcl

09-12-1999, 02:37 PM

Look, if you're looking for the truth, then go out and buy those books I told you about. You know, the ones at your local Bible bookstore? They will show you each Mormon contradiction, in step by step detail.

Hm, well, as long as you're going to look at contradictions in other religions' holy books, you might want to take a look at your own. Try [url]http://www.uib.no/zoo/brage/bible/1innerr.html[/quote]

This is not to insult your religion, or anything. Frankly, I don't care whether someone's sacred text is contradictory or not. But I just hate to see residents of glass houses throwing stones.

09-12-1999, 04:34 PM

Adam: I've been meaning to respond to the following quote of yours:

Bill: I'm sorry. I just went through and browsed many web sites dealing with the contradictions of Mormonism. It's truly sad, because your very own BOM contradicts itself, as does every other thing you read. My dear Lord, it's all one big ball of lies, and confusion. No wonder you don't know what's up or down.

Have you ever heard of "schizophrenia" or "mental illness"? It's true, I sometimes don't know what's up or down. But that's not because my religion is faulty. I've suffered from paranoid schizophrenia (although I don't believe it to be a physical disease in my case) for more than 10 years. Mostly, I stay in my small basement room, with expeditions out of here only to use the bathroom, pick up some food, or get the mail. I suffer from fear of leaving my house, also known as agoraphobia.

The point I'm getting at is, when you're alone with yourself virtually all of the time, you don't get feedback on your ideas and words. And sometimes I say things that, when I look back on them, seem extremely foolish, arrogant, or (insert derogatory term here). This, I believe, is the primary cause of my not knowing "up from down" sometimes: no feedback.

Even the most sane person will talk to himself when left alone for long enough, and what he says may not make sense to others, especially when those others are on the Net and not in person. Sometimes I have trouble distinguishing reality from fantasy. This is no reason, however, to say that Mormonism is the cause of my troubles. Cyberian54 tried to convince me that I must "get out of Utah" as fast as I possibly could, as have others on the AOL SDMB. Utah and Mormonism are not the causes of my mental problems. You might as well blame madness on the full moon as believe that the LDS church causes my problems.

smilingjaws

09-12-1999, 04:56 PM

I don't want to get into this war, but I would like to clarify my words on the nature of God as determined by orthodox Christians.
The point I was trying to make is that man cannot become God. Jesus existed as God (not one of many but as one of the trinity) for all eternity. He became a man--and was Wholly God and Wholly Man.
To think that a man could become so pure and so great as to become God is the heresy.
I would also like to point out that God has declared himself to be a Jealous God and has commanded Christians not to worship other gods.

Debating mormonism & Christianity is one of those things that can take years. Frankly, I think eveyone should just chill. Maybe Adam doesn't have hours and hours to spend on this board--I hope this young man has a life outside the straight dope.
Snarkberry--I think the Mormon church must provide you a lot of support in your current situation and I congratulate you in finding a structure that makes you feel safe.

longhair75

09-12-1999, 05:23 PM

friend adam,

you wrote: Only one book can be correct, right? You can't have two books that contradict each other, and still hold that BOTH of them are God's true Word, right? Yet that is exactly what Mormons do. Go ahead Gaudere, read the Bible, and BOM. Then maybe you can talk to the mormons, and show them the contradictions.

the difficulty the rest of us have in discussing religion and the differences between religions with people of your particular degree of faith is exactly in the contradictions..

you are completely unwilling to even imagine that it is remotely possible that god may have revealed himself to others in a manner different than he has revealed himself to you.

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"don't get strung out by the way that i look, don't judge a book by it's cover" (tim curry as dr. franknfurter in rhps)

Monty

09-12-1999, 06:09 PM

Jaws: Actually, the commandment about having no other gods was addressed to the Jews. Jews see the deification of a man as blasphemy and thus do not consider Christianity to be a "new and improved" version of Judaism.

Adam: Okay; how about telling us all how you know that those sites are actually quoting the books they're disparaging? I mean it's not all that hard to get access to the Book of Mormon, to the Koran, to Science & Health, to the Analects of Confucius, or to any other faith's books now. You, apparently, are placing your faith in a man without checking something which is quite easy to check.

Monty

09-12-1999, 06:12 PM

Before my last posting above gets misconstrued: I, being a Christian (regardless of what ARG220 thinks), do see Christianity as a continuation of Judaism.

09-12-1999, 08:49 PM

Smilingjaws wrote:

Snarkberry--I think the Mormon church must provide you a lot of support in your current situation

Well, not really. I don't go to church or social occasions, so there's no social support. I don't receive money from them, so no financial support either (my parents pay the bills). But should I be stranded or stuck in the snow, without fail someone will help me. And in a city that is 70-80% LDS, chances are that that someone is LDS. And the streets are pretty safe at night, too. So I guess you could say that I get a lot of indirect and "on-call" support from them.

and I congratulate you in finding a structure that makes you feel safe.

A structure? What, my parents' house? I suppose I feel safer inside it than on the street, of course. And the agoraphobia does keep me inside most of the time. But I know that no structure is truly "safe" without its inhabitants keeping God's commandments.

(And BTW, Mormons don't worship other gods, just the Godhead (Elohim, Christ and the Holy Ghost).)

Monty

09-12-1999, 09:11 PM

Snarkberry: your posting above just reminded me of my favourite type of Mormon: Winter Mormon. Hope you see the humour in that.

09-12-1999, 09:15 PM

Monty: Huh? I don't get it.

09-12-1999, 09:27 PM

Monty: Oh, I think I know what you mean, LOL. Sort of similar to "Highway Mechanic Mormon," eh?

Monty

09-12-1999, 09:36 PM

Okay; I guess it's not fair to keep everyone else in the dark. Here's the story about "Winter Mormons."

Back in the prospecting days, budding prospectors sometimes would make it into Salt Lake City too late in the season. The mountain passes would be snowed under and they'd have to wait until the next thaw to go prospecting. You have to remember that this was in the days before Federal and State welfare came into existence. There was, however, a welfare plan operating by the LDS church. A member of the church, if he was in need (and this continues to this day--in the mid 1980s, the General Conference was slanted heavily against the governmental disaster known as welfare when compared to the LDS church's plan), would go to the local Bishop (equivalent of other church's Pastor or Rector) and get both a work assignment and a chit for the Bishop's Storehouse. If he had no place to stay, he'd also get a bunk/room assignment with one of the Ward (congregation) families. Of course, to be a member of the Ward, he'd have to join the LDS church. When the winter was over, the snows would've thawed and then you'd not see the likes of that guy again until the next winter. Thus "Winter Mormon." The term is now usually ascribed to folks you never see at church unless they need something.

09-12-1999, 09:49 PM

Monty: Oh, it's something totally different than I thought it was. If you are implying that I'm a "Winter Mormon," just let me tell you one thing: I would be at church every single Sunday of the year, offering my musical talents as a pianist/organist or whatever calling they put me in, if I didn't have an emotional breakdown every time I go near any type of crowd. Please don't judge me, thank you. :(

Monty

09-12-1999, 09:55 PM

Snarkberry: That's not at all what I meant. What I meant was your posting reminded me of a winter mormon. That's because you described so well how the Church, being real live caring people, jump in and help folks whenever they're in need.

Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Another of my favourite types is the "mythical mormon." The one who actually does every single thing a Mormon's supposed to do.

09-12-1999, 10:02 PM

Oh, okay. Sorry to jump to conclusions so quickly--as you may or may not have noticed, I often misinterpret what people are actually trying to say in their posts. One of the perils of internet communication--you can't see facial expressions, body language, etc. and you have to go by people's words alone.

09-12-1999, 10:13 PM

Phil: I think even you would have to admit that your heart changed when you decided to forsake God. I mean, if you used to say, "I love you God," and now you don't even think He exists, I'd say that's a significant change of heart. BUT, it's cool that your wife doesn't want to talk to me. I just wanted her to know that I wasn't trying to "re-save" her.

Monty: I notice you didn't post anything regarding my "lies." That's ok. I'll assume the fact that you didn't mention it, meant that you saw my point. And about those web-sites; I trust that they are factual. For Pete's sake, you have to trust these things sometimes, and go on faith that your brethren will not lie to you. I DO check that the Bible references are correct, since I actually have a Bible. And if I HAD a BOM, you can be sure that I'd check in there too. But since I don't have a BOM, I have to trust them, and have some faith.

Bill: When I said, "Sometimes you don't know up from down," I meant you, and in YOU Mormons. I didn't think it mattered, but after reading your very open, and personal posts, I WISH I had made myself clearer.

I've more to say to you Bill, but I think I'll do it via E-mail, since this thread has gotten too personal. Do me a favor and E-mail me first, because I remember you saying that your address changed.

Adam

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"Life is hard...but God is good"

09-12-1999, 11:21 PM

Adam wrote:

Monty: (snip) And about those web-sites; I trust that they are factual. For Pete's sake, you have to trust these things sometimes, and go on faith that your brethren will not lie to you.

Adam, you're forgetting one other thing. There's an old saying about "the blind leading the blind--both shall fall into the ditch." Maybe your brethren won't lie to you, but consider the possibility that they don't know what they're talking about, as well.

I DO check that the Bible references are correct, since I actually have a Bible. And if I HAD a BOM, you can be sure that I'd check in there too. But since I don't have a BOM, I have to trust them, and have some faith.

I've given you a link to get a free BOM, so I trust you can get one quite easily, at no cost or obligation to yourself.

09-13-1999, 12:00 AM

Slythe: You just don't like my smiley faces, and winks. Perhaps I use them too often. It's just a habit from using Instant Message on AOL all the time, and having conversations where there are no words. Just a bunch of smiling, frowning, laughing, and basic silliness.

Kat: There are no contradictions in the Bible. And if you say there are, then it may just be an example of misinterpretation. For example, I went to that Atheists of America site, and looked at all their Biblical "contradictions," and found that none of them were even relevant. It's just a matter of context, and interpretation.

Phil: I figured your wife wouldn't want to talk to me, and if she did, you probably would discourage her anyway. I don't want to preach to her, or you. What I REALLY want to know is what happened to your hearts. I just want your story Phil, that's all. So far, you've been quite uncooperative (is that a word?) in giving me any info though. Go figure.

Oh, BTW Kat: One does not have to read an entire book to see contradictions. One only need go to those web sites I mentioned, and they provide the passages in the Bible, BOM, and D&C for you. Then they compare them and show that sometimes, the Mormon text is completely OPPOSITE of what the Bible says.

I can just see Monty's next post now. I'll wait and see if my predictions about it are correct, to see how well I actually know him.

Adam

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"Life is hard...but God is good"

09-13-1999, 12:15 AM

Adam, so:

When the Bible contradicts itself, it's all a matter of "context and interpretation."

When the Book of Mormon "contradicts" itself, it's obviously false.

Might I suggest that you use the same standard to judge the BOM as you do the Bible? Could there possibly be other interpretations than those anti-Mormon web sites give? (GASP!)

09-13-1999, 12:24 AM

Let me put that another way:

When the Bible contradicts the Bible, it's a matter of "context and interpretation."

When the Book of Mormon "contradicts" the Bible, it's obviously false (to you).

Two different measuring sticks.

pldennison

09-13-1999, 05:35 AM

Phil: I think even you would have to admit that your heart changed when you decided
to forsake God.

You misspelled "realized that god doesn't exist."

I mean, if you used to say, "I love you God," and now you don't even think He exists, I'd say that's a significant change of heart.

No, it really isn't.

smilingjaws

09-13-1999, 09:00 AM

This message is for Adam--
Look kid, I worry about you spending so much time on this bulletin board. You are very young. You need to be out interacting with people and learning about life first hand. This bulletin board is fun--but the relationships you have with people are not fully dimensional. YOu can't see their body language, look at their eyes, see their surroundings, etc. You need to be involved with people on a face to face basis. Please, please stop spending so much time on this board.
I think you're in college now, right? You have the opportunity to explore things that you will never have again. If you chose to spend your time interacting with people on bulletin boards you'll not be able to do this. It is obvious that you're a bright kid--probably one who has a little trouble relating to others one-on-one. The answer to that is practice, practice, practice. Join some clubs, get a part-time job, go to a larger, non-religious college where you can interact with a variety of people. Ask girls out--lots of different girls. Sure, some will say no, but some will say yes. Live in a dorm, don't live at home. Stay at the dorm on the weekends and don't go home! Go play cards with the guy down the hall. Join the gym and work out daily. Join the chess club. Take classes in literature, policy, economics--small classes where people discuss interesting indeas. JOin the debate team. Read some books on body language, communication (Deborah Tanner), psychology. DO ANYTHING except waste your youth looking at a computer screen.
Look at your motives for being on this board--are you avoiding people because you don't feel comfortable with them? ARe you looking for approval you didn't get from some authority figure? Are you trying to make people like you because you have an incredible desire to be liked by everyone?
Examine yourself and then look at the other people who post. Why are they on the board? A lot of them are in places where they just don't interact with people who stimulate their intellect. If you use your head--fully engage yourself in college life--and take the time and effort to find the right career--you won't be in that situation when you are older. Find that job that makes you use your brain. Find a woman who makes you think. Find friends who think and who make you think. Find them in the physical world--not in cyberspace.
I only speak for myself here--but if I had friends who were intellectually challenging, a spouse who was the same, a job that grabbed my heart and soul I would check this site maybe once a week at most.
Go to it, kid--find a real life!

09-13-1999, 10:26 AM

Smilingjaws wrote to Adam:

Examine yourself and then look at the other people who post. Why are they on the board?

Adam, I can't speak for others, but I'll tell you why I'm on this board so much: it's because I hAVE NO LIFE. I would strongly encourage you to heed Smilingjaws's advice in the above post. I regret not having dated very much when I was your age (I'm 33 now). I have a lot of regrets, among them and probably the biggest one is that I didn't get a good education when I had the chance to do so.

Now I hang out on the internet, usually ALL DAY, doing nothing but chit-chat. Don't end up like me. As Smilingjaws so well put it, get a real life! You won't regret it. :)

smilingjaws

09-13-1999, 11:07 AM

Snarkberry--I get the feeling you are a very kind young man.
Best wishes

David B

09-13-1999, 02:11 PM

ARG said:There are no contradictions in the Bible. And if you say there are, then it may just be an example of misinterpretation.Funny how any contradictions in the books you believe in are just "misinterpretation," but contradictions in books you don't like are blatant examples of why they are false. A person might be tempted to find a bit of irony in those claims and even make fun of having such silly positions...Phil: I think even you would have to admit that your heart changed when you decided to forsake God. I mean, if you used to say, "I love you God," and now you don't even think He exists, I'd say that's a significant change of heart.Hmmm. Maybe Phil is one of those folks who realizes that people think with their brains and their hearts just pump a lot of blood around. Not that this is an unimportant function, mind you, but I doubt the blood flow changed when Phil dropped religion.