Religion, Fact? I think not

[techchick68]

Okay folks,

I live and grew up in Colorado Springs, purportly the city with the largest amount of religious organizations per capita in the US.

We have everything from Focus on the Family headquarters(ick) to the largest Metaphysical fair of its kind in the US (happening this weekend) to every group in between. But what makes me sad is the division between the the extreme right wing and even those of us that stand in the middle.

C Springs has got to be the most volatile place to live in if you have a difference of opinion with regards to the teachings of Christianity.

I am not Christian, nor am I religious, I consider myself to be spiritual. I think being a spiritual person is more important than being religious. Why do I say that? Here's the scoop:

You say, "he religiously cleans his car," you never say, "he spiritually cleans his car."

I know that sounds silly, but it's true. If you live your life spiritually rather than religiously you have a better sense of things around you. If you live your life religiously, you go through the motions but the ends are never satisfying nor helpful to fellow humans. Not that washing your car could benefit your neighbor, but maybe caring for the things you have benefits you in a different way than a simple ownership. You thank whatever your God is, or Gods are for providing you with the means of transportation.

To go to "The Karate Kid," this may also sound silly, but he was being taught to put his soul into what he was doing, not simply go through the motions. Remember "Wax on, wax off?" If you think about it, it makes sense.

I am not sure exactly where I am going with this whole thing except that maybe I am a little afraid of our rights, as guarded by the constitution, to have freedom of religion are being trampled by The Religious Right.

In C Springs those rights are being trampled on every day and the Christian Right is doing everything possible to squash my right not to have to live like they think I should.

For the most part I am a morale(ummm,by their standards) and upstanding person, but because I don't follow their "book" I am doomed to hell. In addition because I believe that people have a right to make mistakes (in their eyes commit sin) I am a sinful being for thinking that.

I just wish "The Religious Right" would get off my ass for not being a Christian. I wish people would get a freaking clue and realize that there are so many beliefs out there that no person can ever totally agree on what is truth. In my eyes, your truth is not truth but a means to explain in human terms what can't really be explained.

So as humans we hurt and harm another for the sake of who is right and wrong? What if my beliefs are right and yours aren't? This human existance should not be about forcing our self beliefs on another but to accept the differences as genuine individuality.

I enjoy my individuality, I enjoy your indiviuality. We may never totally agree but if we can come together and agree to disagree our lives will be richer for it. Let's discuss it, but not fight over it. Let's begin to appreciate our differences and maybe learn from another. I will not take what I don't deserve and I wont give what you don't deserve. But for goodness sakes give me a chance for being different.

Lots said, nuff said!

[SterlingNorth]

techchick, you're just too damn reasonable.

[Satan]

techchick68:

Have there been any particular incidents to you or around you that gives you a feeling of your rights being trampled? If so, I'd love to hear them...

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Yer pal,
Satan

[Phaedrus]

techchick98: Sigh.... Yes, I know what you mean. I wouldn't condemn all of the religious right though. I hold beliefs that are similar to theirs', but I attended the Whole Life Expo in Cleveland just weekend or so ago. It is really sad that some people feel so threatened by the beliefs of others that they can do nothing but attack them. I have a lot of brethren who act that way. All I can say for them is that they do not further their cause and make it much worse for people like me who get painted by the broad brush that others paint them with. Most of the "fundies" that I know get made fun of aptly because they don't think. They just picked up on what other were doing when they got converted. Sad. Really sad. I believe in Focus on the Family, but I don't go around bashing other people who don't. It is really sad that others that believe as I do don't use me as an example. When they go around shouting nonsense they are asking to shot at and most of the time I am not offended by people who go after them.

I used to live in Denver and visited Boulder frequently. Ahh, I really miss those mountains! Have a great life!

[techchick68]

Sterling....it's not that I am reasonable, it's that I am realistic?

Satan.... I am one of those moderate persons with lots of views. I see what is happening in my city, the recent bugaboo is that "The Christain Coalition" located here in C Springs has flamed the mayor for giving a proclomation for a gay/lesbian parade. I mean who gives a rat's ass.

Those of you that don't live in the C Springs area can't see the consistant crap that comes up about gays and lesbians. Which in my opinion should be left to the person involved.

I am a business person, own my my company, someday I will hire people and should NEVER turn down a potential employee because he or she is homosexual.

This city is so full of hateful people that I had to speak my peace.

I wrote the "Independant" http://www.csindy.com last year about all this crap and told them I was trying hard to make my break for a more tolerant city.

I am not gay, nor am I lesbian, I am not Christian, but I am spiritual. This place is not for the meak.....if you ever move here be prepared for ultra conserativism and down right assholeness towards those different.

[SterlingNorth]

Nah, I wouldn't say that shit like that is confined to Colorado Springs. Phaedrus is right on this, I believe

Maybe some people are so insecure about their beliefs, they attack the beliefs of others so they don't have to think about their insecurities.

Of course my other theory is that some people are just simply (capitalized and boldfaced) JERKS!

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To lying, cheating, stealing, and drinking.

Always lie to save a friend, cheat death,
steal your love's heart, and drink with good friends.
---Madison Michele

[pldennison]

Phaedrus spake:It is really sad that some people feel so threatened by the beliefs of others that they can do nothing but attack them. I have a lot of brethren who act that way. All I can say for them is that they do not further their cause and make it much worse for people like me who get painted by the broad brush that others paint them with. Most of the "fundies" that I know get made fun of aptly because they don't think . . . I believe in Focus on the Family, but I don't go around bashing other people who don't.

That's pretty goddamned funny coming from someone who, on another thread, referred to Bill Clinton as a baby-killing, faggot-loving, minorty glad-handing demon. If you get painted with the same brush, maybe it's because you're standing in the fucking paint can, huh?

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"I love God! He's so deliciously evil!" - Stewie Griffin, Family Guy

[David B]

Techchick said:You say, "he religiously cleans his car," you never say, "he spiritually cleans his car."Well, I dunno. These days with Feng Shui and all, I bet there are some people who spiritually clean their cars! ;)

[Keeves]

I agree with the distinction you're making, where "religious" often means believing and/or doing merely by force of habit, and "spiritual" means actually thinking about it actively and soulfully.

But it doesn't have to be an either/or choice. They're not mutually exclusive. It is possible to do the actions and beliefs, and do them in an active, spiritual way!

[Polycarp]

Techchick, it's not confined to C.S., though with Dobson operating out of there, I can see why you might feel that way. Rest assured that there are tons of people who are offended by this sort of idiocy, including a lot of good Christians (myself and Tom~(of the -ndebb username), among others, for example).

[SterlingNorth]

Phil, anyone, one question.

What the hell is minorty glad-handing"?

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To lying, cheating, stealing, and drinking.

Always lie to save a friend, cheat death,
steal your love's heart, and drink with good friends.
---Madison Michele

[Phaedrus]

pldennison: Again, I got a good laugh from your comment and I was still laughing from the comment in the tread you were referring to. You make Don Rickles look like an amateur! Thank you again, really! LOL Too funny!

SterlingNorth: What Phil was referring to was, "minority gladhanding" a phrase I used to indicate that Herr Clinton's allegiance to minorities was in word only. Phil made my point for me by bringing up welfare reform, but he missed my point, one of several that he missed.

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That which a man had rather were true he more readily believes.

[andros]

Did I miss something?

pld: "You're being hypocritical."
phaedrus: "That's very funny."

Are you going to address the allegation, phaedrus? Or ignore it?

And can someone please post a link to that thread?

-andros-

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"Listen Children Eternal Father Eternally One!" Exceptions? None!
-Doc Bronner

[SterlingNorth]

I've really got to start reading some of the other threads.

So, Phaed, is there any explanation for the "love thy neighbor" act on this thread versus what appears to be the rantings of a homophobic bigot on the other thread.

I don't appreciate being decieved.
SterlingNorth

When Presidential Quizes Attack. (http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000480.html)

[pldennison]

The only point I might possibly have missed is that either you are a liar on this thread or you condone blatant hypocrisy. I'm still waiting for specifics on how Clinton has ruined this country more than any president since Nixon.

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"I love God! He's so deliciously evil!" - Stewie Griffin, Family Guy

[Phaedrus]

It is probably not prudent for me to respond to any of these allegations. Nevertheless, I will say this. I do not like Clinton. I do not have to justify why. Not here. Not to anyone. I have my opinions and if you don't like them you have that right. You also have the right not to like me. All of that is fine. In order to explain this apparent inconsistentcy of thought I will say this much. On an indidvidual level I like people. And at that level people sometimes even like me. It is groups that I dislike, particularly "group mentality". Mob mentality. The kind of thinking that broods in the minds of lemmings and their ilk. I could list a small sampling of "groups" that I do not like and it would appear as inconsistent as the two posts to those who dot not understand my premise here. I DO NOT LIKE GROUPS OR THE MENTALITY THAT GOES WITH THEM!

I not like; the kkk, black panthers, homosexuals, lesbians, bi-sexuals, whites, blacks, right wing fundamentalists, christians, atheists, welfare mothers, dead beat dads, lawyers, animal rights activists, sports fans, construction workers, unions, activists of any kind, etc etc etc ad nauseum.

However, I have had friends and associates that would fit into many of these categories. One example should suffice: My best man was a homosexual. A man I love dearly.

Final note: They really should invent a word that describes a person that hates homosexuals. As you know, homophobe literally means homo Latin for same phobe Greek for fear. The inference being that there are people who are afraid of homosexuals. I certainly am not afraid of them.

I will not respond to any more questions of this type. It is my right. That train leads to a destination that I am not interested in.

Thank you for your time.

Phaedrus

[Gaudere]

I think Phaedy's post is the most frightening and unpleasant thing I have seen on this board. Ugh.

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"Happiness is nonetheless true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting."
- Bertrand Russell

[Satan]

Phaedrus:

Your candor is appreciated.

Very hypocritical, but still appreciated.

But I can say that I'm a hypocrite too, as the inverse works for me.

As a group, I like teeming millions here on the board, people in general and people who try and find spirituality.

But I do not like you, and you fit into all of those groups.

You are the enemy...

[pldennison]

So, it's the hypocrite thing, then? Cool, as long as we're clear.

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"I love God! He's so deliciously evil!" - Stewie Griffin, Family Guy

[VegForLife]

Wow. I hadn't really expected Phil's question to turn into *this*. . . Before, I was amused; now I'm very curious, almost fascinated:
I not like; the kkk,
Neanderthal sentence structure and punctuation aside, so far you're doing okay, based on your avowed dislike (or hatred) of "groups": "the kkk" is certainly a "group," that is, an organization to which people belong, or, and this probably cuts closer to what you object to, an organization of people with similar views in one area.
black panthers,
But here you start to muddy the waters a bit. Is it "The Black Panthers" you don't like, or is it anybody who is a black panther? Because "The Black Panthers" is indeed a group, while "black panthers" is not, it is a phrase that refers to the people within the organization.
homosexuals, lesbians, bi-sexuals, whites, blacks, right wing fundamentalists, christians, atheists, welfare mothers, dead beat dads, lawyers, animal rights activists, sports fans, construction workers, unions, activists of any kind, etc etc etc ad nauseum.
Here, of course, you've completely crossed the line, and all hope of retaining any sort of credibility has swirled down into the sewer. Suddenly, anybody who happens to *be* something, be it homosexual or black or whatever, is in a "group," and, while you don't apparently hate that person, you hate the group that they are in, regardless of whether or not they had a choice to be in it.

How very. . . very. . . well, how very Christian of you!
I have had friends and associates that would fit into many of these categories.
Isn't it convenient to have boxes that you can shove everybody into, instead of realizing that they're all individuals?
One example should suffice: My best man was a homosexual. A man I love dearly.
Perhaps you should have mentioned that to your bride. . .
Final note: They really should invent a word that describes a person that hates homosexuals.
Serious question here: why do you think this? I just want to make sure I don't ascribe motivations here where none should be ascribed. It would appear that you would like such a word so that you can use it to describe yourself, based on the fact that you reject the word "homophobe" as a description of yourself because you don't fear homosexuals. But it could be that you would like such a word so that you can use it to describe others, i.e., so that you can shove another group of people into a box. I'm afraid that either option puts you in a bad light, but one is slightly less offensive than the other, at least to me.

You're correct, it's certainly your right to avoid replies to queries and statements that continue in this vein. You might not want to avail yourself of that right, however, if you ever hope to have anybody on this board take you seriously again. I, for one, have no respect for you now, and it has nothing to do with what "groups" you may or may not belong to; I suspect that a large number of the other people who read your post feel similarly.

Rich

In the interest of accuracy (and keeping this at the top so Phaedrus can get whacked some more):


Phaedrus used lemmings as an example of animals that act en masse with no individual behavior. This is undoubtedly based on the common perception that lemmings periodically kill themselves.

Lemmings do not perform mass suicide. Occaisonally, one or two will fall of a cliff during migration, but not all of them.

The common concept of suicidal lemmings stems from a old Disney nature film were lemmings were forced to run over a cliff because it would be, in the filmmakers' minds, better somehow.

How's THAT for off-topic?

--John

Bon mot- 45 cents. Non sequiters half price.

[Polycarp]

So we owe you $0.225, John? (.sig line)

Phaedrus, if I understand you correctly, you dislike (numerous forms of) group behavior, though you may like or even love people who fall into those groups. You do not dislike homosexuals, you dislike homosexual activists, to take a primary example people have picked up on?

Is that approximately what you were saying?

[VegForLife]

Polycarp, a homosexual activist is not necessarily engaging in "group behaviour." If I choose to be an activist for floppy disks, and picket high-tech companies for subjecting the poor devils to the inhumane treatment of being shoved into little slots all day long, there isn't necessarily a group which has told me to do this, or whose policies I subscribe to (and I hope there isn't such a group, but these days, who knows).

There are "homosexual activists" who may speak for the group to which they belong, and there are "homosexual activists" who may say that they speak for all homosexuals (and these can probably be derided in the same way that Satan derides those who claim to speak for all Christians), but both of these are a far cry from any sort of "mob mentality."

To claim that you "hate groups" shows an inherent lack of understanding as to the purpose of like-minded people getting together. And that's a "best case" description.

Rich

[Polycarp]

Rich, I take your point, and concur. Though I will note that the majority of activists for anything do tend to organize in groups, as a nearly universal rule.

My distinct impression was that Phaedrus was trying, somewhat incoherently, to express something significant and conflicting to him, and that it had to do with not disliking individual peoples but group behavior. I was fishing for what exactly he did mean, and would still like to see what it was. Sorry if my example sidetracked the thread slightly.

[VegForLife]

Though I will note that the majority of activists for anything do tend to organize in groups, as a nearly universal rule.
Yeah, I'll concede that. I was just being my usual argumentative self. ;)
I was fishing for what exactly he did mean, and would still like to see what it was.
So would I. It's hard for me to imagine any reasonable explanation for what was posted that doesn't have so many qualifications that the original post is all but invalidated.

Rich

[David B]

Phaedrus said:I do not like Clinton. I do not have to justify why. Not here. Not to anyone.Nope, you don't have to. Of course, this is Great Debates, and if you're going to debate something, you will be asked about it. And if you repeatedly refuse to answer, you will probably not like the various names and labels that are applied to you. But, hey, that's your perogative.

[andros]

I will not respond to any more questions of this type. It is my right. That train leads to a destination that I am not interested in.

Maybe y'all made him uncomfortable. Sounds like he will no longer respond to anyone who questions his views. Or maybe just anyone who wants to clarify an apparent inconsistency in his statements.

-andros-

[techchick68]

Ok, in reading through some of the posts that actually relate to what I am talking about I have a many more comments.

I realize that there are more communities out there that have similar problems with regards to those that blatently make waves by pushing Christian morality. However, for me having lived in Grand Junction (kind of a "who gives a shit what you do, just be nice" city to Denver where it's a big enough city that most people think the same in a more metropolitan way....whatever that is.

What frustrates me is that there is not only organizations like Focus on the Family (seen a few bumper stickers around here: "Focus on your own damn family") but there is Colorado for Christian Values, The Christian Coalition and a few other sorts of groups that claim home here.

What has happened is, the division of the people of this city is becoming wider and wider because of these groups. In fact there are two business men here in town that I will never do business with. One being Will Perkins and the other is Ed Bircham.

Both men know my father, in fact my father has known those two zealots most of his life. My father was a well known business man in town (now partially retired) and even though he has very conservative beliefs, he offered jobs to people who needed second chances in life, something I bet those two dickweeds would never do unless the prospective employee signed up for some religious training.

It's one thing to spout through your asshole and it's a whole other thing to be as kind as you can, even in a business way, to those around you, regardless of your religious beliefs.

It's time for the religious organizations in Colorado Springs, or most anywhere, to either accept the differences or go to some freakin uninhabited island and make your own damned country!

It just makes me sick to see that this community and others around the country are being torn apart over so-called Christian values. Enough is enough. You have a cause cool, but don't start trampling your morals on my rights, as given by the constitution of this United States.

Stay out of my bedroom, I like having pre-marital sex. Stay out of my gynocologists office, what ever medical treatment I need I want it to be safe. Evolution is theoretical science...ummm fossils speak loudly here... so let the teachers teach it as theory. Your Adam and Eve has no physical proof.

Sex and violence on TV is ok. Don't force the government to police what your children are watching. If you can't control your own damn children, why the hell did you have them?

Sex and violence on the internet. Sheesh, learn the freakin computer, but don't try to force laws that; number one could never be enforced (aka WORLD WIDE WEB) and number two, if you can't control your own damn children, why the hell did you have them?

And last but not least, take the basics of your religion (which is taught in most religions I have ever learned) to not judge! The only being that has any power to judge in any form is God.

(so I am judging, or maybe just trying to bring some of the people who stand in the middle out to speak too.) damned leftists, damned rightists.....there is a damned middle we can meet!

[SterlingNorth]

What? You didn't enjoy our sidetrack into hypocracy.

Again, I can't agree with you more.

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That isn't journalism. It's ping-pong.
---Bob Levey, Washington Post columnist