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View Full Version : Pepe Le Pew...innocent cartoon, or stalker/rapist?


kellibelli
09-20-1999, 01:38 PM
Remember those cartoons?
The way he tries to force himself on the poor hapless black kitty (who unfortunately has a mishap with the white paint) that he thinks is a skunk.

Isnt that a metaphor for the over amourous date who thinks the girl 'wants it" because of how she is dressed?

She never gets away, no matter what she does, and I never really found that funny...it was a little disturbing.

Is that what the animators were trying to convey?

Your thoughts?

Boris B
09-20-1999, 02:09 PM
Interesting thought. I tend to take cartoon messages seriously, since they do subtly influence a lot of our thinking. Especially about sexual relations. Olive is always being harassed by Bluto (and whatever else he was called). It takes a vegetarian sailor to save her.

There is a crazy Betty Boop cartoon in which she is physically pursued by a ton of dirty old men. She just wants to do the boopity-boop; they want something else. Eventually she prevails, with the help of her loyal pooch Bimbo; I think they drop some 16-ton weights on some heads. The message to men: proposition women rudely, and at first you'll just make them nervous; eventually you'll get a weight dropped on your head. The message to women: keep a loyal dog around.

In the Pepe the skunk/masher case, I'm not as clear on the message. It could be: if you harass females, you are a skunk. It could be: if somebody thinks you're their type (a skunk), it's best just to speak up and say "I'm a cat you Gallic stink bomb!" It could be: chasing cats is fun and necessary, since all men are naturally skunks, and women are shy and mute. The latter is the only message that really irks me.

Interesting note: cats are almost always evil and predatory in cartoons, but not in this one. Hmm. Don't know what to make of that.

Anyway, I don't remember the cartoon very well. I thought the cat did eventually get away somehow, maybe by the paint washing off? In any case, as a kid I definitely rooted for the cat, since Pepe was such a goof (I didn't realize the testosterone factor till much later). Plus I like cats better than skunks.

Mojo
09-20-1999, 02:29 PM
I just thought the cartoon was a knock against the french- they think that they're "zee greatest luv-airs, non?" even when being rebuffed. And they stink to boot.

Ukulele Ike
09-20-1999, 02:29 PM
I always figured it tied into the elemental American urge to laugh at French people.

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Uke

Ukulele Ike
09-20-1999, 02:30 PM
Yeah, like Mojo said.

PunditLisa
09-20-1999, 03:17 PM
I suppose we'd know if Pepe ever made it to the casbaugh. ;) Wherever THAT is.

Boris B
09-20-1999, 03:19 PM
I think a casbah is like a kremlin.

09-20-1999, 03:27 PM
How about the fact that Betty Boop is dating her own dog, Bimbo? Doesn't anyone find that just a bit, umm, odd?

And how about that chickenhawk, "who's gonna get me some chicken!"

And is Donald married to Daisy? Does anyone NOT think those three "nephews" are their bastard spawn?

johnh/metalgod
09-20-1999, 05:53 PM
If Bugs Bunny dressed up as a black cat in drag and by some misfortune obtained a black stripe woul pepe le'pew stalk him?

What if Sylvester was really that little cat's boyfriend?

And yes, there are far too many "nephews" running around in cartoons! Even Popeye had 'em for crissakes!

WallyM7
09-20-1999, 06:14 PM
I remember the cartoons and I'm embarrassed to admit that I never gave it a thought until now, Kelli. I just thought Pepe was a jerk. But I see your point. Now.

This also got me thinking about Popeye and Olive. Once in a while, she'd give Bluto the come-on. It seems to me she liked them fighting over her. Were the animators implying that women are fickle?

Gee, Kelli, now you've got me thinking about all the other cartoons.

Nice going. I was going to watch the football game.

It's a great OP. I'm going to bounce this off my wife right now.

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If you're an optimist, you haven't been paying attention.

Johnny Angel
09-20-1999, 07:15 PM
Look, there's no attempt in these cartoons to send any message. Nobody watches Pepe LaPew and thinks he's behaving himself appropriately, and he is never shown to win. It's just a premise on which to connect a series of gags.

Honestly, these cartoons were never meant to be taken seriously, and they were created by people and at a time when no one would have ever imagined that people would take them this seriously. Yes, this kind of behavior is beyond what we would be comfortable presenting in a modern cartoon, but let's not be too judgemental.

tracer
09-20-1999, 07:58 PM
WallyM7 wrote:

This also got me thinking about Popeye and Olive. Once in a while, she'd give Bluto the come-on. It seems to me she liked them fighting over her. Were the animators implying that women are fickle?

What do you mean "once in a while"? She flirted with Bluto every single friggin' episode! She practically begged Popeye and Bluto to fight over her!

And then when Bluto would win the fight (through devious means, usually), and be able to respond unopposed to Olive's flirting unopposed by "that runt sailor man", Olive would suddenly turn all frigid. Only then would Bluto start to commit Stage 1 Sexual Assault, requiring a downed Popeye to come to the rescue.

Face it. Olive was turned on by Bluto's aggression and imposing stature. She's like the heroine in a Rosemary Rogers novel.

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I'm not flying fast, just orbiting low.

WallyM7
09-20-1999, 08:24 PM
Shit.

I wasn't sure about it (it was so long ago)so I tried to play it safe and got caught.

I do believe you're right, Tracer.

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If you're an optimist, you haven't been paying attention.

Holly
09-20-1999, 09:44 PM
"This also got me thinking about Popeye and Olive. Once in a while, she'd give Bluto the come-on. It seems to me she liked them fighting over her. Were the animators implying that women are fickle?"

They didn't just imply it, Wally. Don't you remember that Popeye cartoon where he and Olive were supposed to get married the next day and she had a nightmare about what life would be like as mother to his kids (played by the nephews in her dream); then when Popeye comes to pick her up the next morning she throws a dresser out the upstairs window onto his head? Popeye laughed and said, "Women... they're fickle!" (or maybe it was 'women... they's fickle')

The more I think about it, the more I think kellibelli has a good point. That skunk was scary, and I don't think the cat got away in the end. Mostly I remember the sheer terror in her eyes. It seems benign if you haven't been tormented by a maniacal stalker/ rapist.

matt_mcl
09-20-1999, 09:56 PM
And is Donald married to Daisy? Does anyone NOT think those three "nephews" are their bastard spawn?

Sicko! Everyone knows that his nephews are the children of his sister Dumbella. Geez...

Alphagene
09-21-1999, 12:27 AM
Yeah, and Roadrunner cartoons are amusing until you have been through the horror of ingesting Earthquake Pills.

And a friend of mine who was nearly killed after trying out this Rocket-Powered Rollerskates still can't sit through a full episode without crying.

Satan
09-21-1999, 01:21 AM
Thank you, Alphagene...

IT'S A FUCKING CARTOON, PEOPLE!!

And The Smurfs are an allegory to a Biblical tale, what with Azriel the cat after them and all. And Mighty Mouse was sniffing opium in those flowers.

ARRGGHH!!!

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Yer pal,
Satan

mikan
09-21-1999, 03:00 AM
Does anyone else remember the WB cartoon where one mouse (a smart city mouse, I think) explains to another mouse (dumb country mouse) the workings of the capitalist economic system? That was the whole cartoon, from beginning to end. Now what the hell was THAT all about?!
-- Oh, that's right, it was just a fucking cartoon. Duh.

kellibelli
09-21-1999, 07:22 AM
Please keep in mind the origins of these cartoons, warner bros. created them for adults in the beginning, it was only after they found the childrens market that they geared them to the kiddies. Even then, they kept the hig level of adult content that sailed over the young heads, and made the parents chuckle.

I am not implying that they are somehow sanctioning assault, but almost all of the warner cartoons have an adult theme. What was the theme of these?

The writers were geniuses, Mel Blanc was one of the greatest men who ever lived (IMHO), and the animators/writers always made the cartoons a metaphor for life.

The coyote for example, his endless struggle to get the bird, even though he always just misses - painfully. A metaphor for the pursuit of happiness?

There is a wealth of material to analyze here, far more interesting that classic literature, and just as rich in its content.

I am not a popeye fan, so I cant comment on that one.

danielnsmith
09-21-1999, 08:17 AM
You are knocking American cartoons for it's sexual overtones? For crying out loud people, look at the imported stuff!

My prime example is Sailor Moon which airs on cartoon network. The main characters are school girls who wear skirts so short that their underwear is visible. And this is a cartoon that is marketed towards kids in Japan.

From what I've heard from friends who've been overseas (in the military and such), the United States is practically the cleanest contury in the world when it comes to cartoon content.

Don't knock good old fashioned yankee cartoons until you've seen some from the old world.

kellibelli
09-21-1999, 08:40 AM
Um...Daniel, can you read?

I just wrote:
The writers were geniuses, Mel Blanc was one of the greatest men who ever lived (IMHO), and the animators/writers always made the cartoons a metaphor for life.

I am most certainly not 'knocking' the cartoons....
Please go back, read the thread, and then give an opinion.

I also said:

There is a wealth of material to analyze here, far more interesting that classic literature, and just as rich in its content.


I just compared cartoons to friggin' SHAKESPEARE fo crying out loud!

I am trying to have a mature debate about cartoons if you dont mind! (get it? a mature debate about cartoons.)

vanillanice
09-21-1999, 08:47 AM
I remember in a lot of the pepe cartoons,once the paint wore off the cat,he didn't want her anymore,then She suddenly wanted Him,and started pursuing Him! I think most cartoons are characters chasing another,and never catching them. :(

Markxxx
09-21-1999, 10:12 AM
To answer the Olive Oyle question she was a tramp. I remember one cartoon both Bluto and Popeye ask her to marry her. How does she decide? Einy Meeny Miney Moe. I choose Popeye. So Bluto beats up Popeye and goes to the church. Hey Olive it looks like Popeye stood you up. What does she say "Ok Blutto your dressed I'll marry you."

Or the time she makes Popeye and Bluto shave (sings I want a clean shaven man.) then at the cartoon's end she dumps them both for a professor with a beard.

The list goes on and on.. And by the way usually Bluto can beat up Popeye straight up (well he is 3 times as big) till Popeye has to use spinach.

As for Pepe I will defend him. You will note the cat doesn't like him because he is a skunk, NOT because he is harrassing her. Poor guy is a testimonial to people with bad hygene that yet still strive to prove their worth in a hyper cleanly society.

Atrael
09-21-1999, 10:20 AM
I also distinctly remember several cartoon that had a pro-America theme....about patriotism and such like...I don't think it too much of a stretch to assume that they might have put some adult innuendo in there as well.

danielnsmith
09-21-1999, 11:47 AM
kelli, in your original question, you said you found it disturbing the way Pepe tried to force himself on the poor hapless cat. My comments were in response to your original post, not your second post where you changed from worrying about the theme of rape to the comparison to Shakespeare.

What you have done is like complaining about Larry Flint as a possible scum sucker to stating that he is the greatest pornographer of all time.

My comments were telling you that if you find American cartoons unsettling, then you should compare them to anime which can get pretty raunchy at times. More disturbing than just that, it seems that the Cartoon Network is now airing some of the stuff.

If you have time, watch an episode of Sailor Moon and tell me if it is more disturbing than Pepe Le Peu!

Holly
09-21-1999, 11:50 AM
To me, the most haunting Popeye cartoon is the one that starts out as an actual Depression-era black-and-white movie. A little boy gets the tar beaten out of him by a gang of bullies. Crying, he picks up his Popeye book and the animation jumps off the page, so to speak. After a lesson from Popeye himself, the little boy gets his hands on a big can of spinach, wolfs it down, and proceeds to kick the bullies' behinds in a most impressive fashion.

I wonder how many wimpy little kids tried to imitate this cartoon and were disillusioned when spinach failed to give them the promised super-human strength?

And speaking of Wimpy, could this hamburger- gobbling cartoon character be a major cause of high cholesterol and heart disease among the Baby Boomers today????? ;)

kellibelli
09-21-1999, 01:21 PM
*sigh*

I find that ONE cartoon disturbing...just that one.
I am trying to debate the 'meaning' or 'theme' of that ONE cartoon.

My OP talks about the way PePe tries to force himself on the kitty....even children didnt find it funny. What were the animators saying. (Dont say its only a cartoon) We have seen posts from mambers talking about economic cartoons, political cartoons etc...so we KNOW they must have meant something.
Was there something going on at the time of PePe's creation that the animators are trying to convey?
Are they trying to show us that men can be sexually aggressive? That women really 'want it'? Are they poking fun at some social issue of the time?
I am not slamming the industry, in part of in whole. I love cartoons.

I merely thought this would be an interesting debate with people who watch as much cartoons as me.

That japanese stuff is crap. Watching sailor moon can actually SUCK the I.Q. point right out of your head.That fucking Pokemon too.

Mojo
09-21-1999, 02:00 PM
And I'm telling you they're not condoning stalking, interspecial breeding, or painting white stripes on black cats- they're satirizing the stereotype of the French. Obviously too subtle.

The_Peyote_Coyote
09-21-1999, 03:06 PM
I agree with Mojo, and I disliked the PepeLePeu cartoons, even as a kid.

mikan
09-21-1999, 03:38 PM
Obviously the cartoons are NOT simply satirizing the stereotype of the French (although they definitely do that). The whole thing about the cat being found desirable or not desirable on the basis of her "stripe," as has been pointed out above, is a key part of the cartoon and is not explained away by the French theory in itself. The Pepe cartoons have more going on in them than just that.

kellibelli
09-21-1999, 05:21 PM
Thank you Mikan...

Give us more, what do you think is going on there?

See, this is what I was hoping for.

Petote Coyote, WHY didnt you like it as a kid?

tracer
09-21-1999, 06:35 PM
Holly wrote:

then when Popeye comes to pick her up the next morning she throws a dresser out the upstairs window onto his head? Popeye laughed and said, "Women... they're fickle!" (or maybe it was 'women... they's fickle')

It was more like, "Confucious say, 'Female, she is fickle!' Ug-ug-ug-ug-ug-ug!", where the "ug"s are supposed to be Popeye's laugh. He might not have actually mentioned Confucious, but he was definitely making fun of Chinese accents.

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I'm not flying fast, just orbiting low.

mikan
09-21-1999, 06:51 PM
Apart from the stripe thing, I was just thinking that what makes this cartoon (as opposed to other WB cartoons build around the theme of chase/pursuit) is that the cat herself looks so terrified by the whole ordeal. Road Runner and Tweety Bird never show signs that they are concerned about their predicaments -- only this cat, and she can't even say "beep beep!"

The only thing that makes these cartoons funny (to me) is the comments about l'amour that Pepe makes to the "camera" as he prances daintily along after his prey. But of course I never appreciated them when I was a kid.

The_Peyote_Coyote
09-21-1999, 07:03 PM
Dear Kellibelli:
I thought it was dumb -- I guess that is the best way to explain it. Here is this arrogant skunk (an animal I'm not particularly fond of) with an atrocious accent who bounces around in a ridiculous fashion.
Also, I thought it was always a one-note cartoon. Pepe LePeu always did the same damn thing. At least there was some variety to the other WB cartoons.

mikan
09-21-1999, 07:55 PM
Whoops -- in my post just up there I meant to say "what makes this cartoon *disturbing* ...." (As if it mattered.)

Johnny Angel
09-21-1999, 08:16 PM
You're all wrong, by the way. Popeye's quote on the subject of the inconstancy of women:

You can bet your last nickel

That women is fickle

Says Popeye the Sailor Man!

TubaDiva
09-21-1999, 08:22 PM
According to Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies, The Complete Illustrated Guide to the Warner Bros. Cartoons, the first Pepe LePew cartoon was made in 1945 . . . the last one in 1962.

The great majority of these cartoons were not originally made for children . . . but for adults. It's only been since the advent of television that cartoons were relegated to children's fare.

Chuck Jones, the director of all those Pepe LePew cartoons, said he had Charles Boyer in mind when he created the character. . . he was famous for his "great lover" roles. This also answers another question in this thread: in "Algiers," Charles Boyer invites Hedy Lamarr to the "Casbah."

It's quite unfair to ascribe 1990's sensibilities to work that is of an older and vastly different time.

And besides, it's just a cartoon, dammit!

your humble TubaDiva

Holly
09-21-1999, 09:41 PM
Ah, yes, they are just cartoons, created simply for entertainment value. Still, I don't know about the rest of y'all, but I watched a LOT of cartoons when I was a kid. Old cartoons, new cartoons... the same cartoons over and over. The writers may not have INTENDED anything by them, but my impressionable mind was indelibly marked. In fact, my very first crush was on... I'm ashamed to admit this... Popeye.

I remember some Tom and Jerry cartoon about death; Tom died and was going to be sent to Hell if he didn't get Jerry's signature on a note of apology so he spent the entire cartoon trying to convince Jerry to sign before it was too late. Watching this cartoon as an adult, it seems really benign- hardly worth remembering. As a kid, though, I thought it was awfully scary even though in the end you find out Tom was just having a bad dream. Even scarier was that one about the cat who's being driven insane by the cuckoo in the cuckoo clock. That one gave me nightmares.

Okay, maybe I was just a weird kid.

mikan
09-21-1999, 10:55 PM
Well, one can say that it's "unfair" (to ... whom?) to ascribe 90s sensibilities to cartoons produced decades ago. But on the other hand, these cartoons are still being shown and watched today (aren't they?), tus there's no reason to look backward for some kind of pristine, original "meaning" to them. Whatever the creators of these pop cultural artifacts had in mind is entirely beside the point.
(Not trying to be contentious here; just doing what I can to help make Pepe LePew worthy of the Great Debates forum!)

Ukulele Ike
09-22-1999, 12:11 AM
Holly, I don't believe that ANYONE looked upon J. Wellington Wimpy as a role model!

Well, he had a good vocabulary, I'll give him that, at least in comparison to the other residents of his town.

"I should like to invite you up to the house for a duck dinner...you bring the ducks."

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Uke

Ukulele Ike
09-22-1999, 10:03 AM
Nightmares? Nightmares?

How about that 1935 Walter Lantz technicolor cartoon, CANDYLAND? With the giant anthropomorphic bottle of cod-liver oil bottle and the giant anthropomorphic spoon chasing the two little children? Talk about NIGHTMARES.

Hey, should we start a "most disturbing cartoon" thread over in MPSIMS?

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Uke

mikan
09-22-1999, 01:25 PM
Sheesh. Try to ask a simple question about a skunk and a cat and pretty soon people are talking about cod-liver oil and anthropomorphic spoons. Teeming with relevance, eh?

Ukulele Ike
09-22-1999, 01:57 PM
Well, I don't hear kellibelli complaining, mikan, ya vest-pocket Derrida. You complaining, kell?

Nope...she's out at Blockbuster with Holly, searching for a copy of CANDYLAND.

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Uke

Holly
09-22-1999, 02:18 PM
Sh*t! We can't find it! That's okay; it'll show up on the Cartoon Network sooner or later.

Fear Itself
09-24-1999, 09:00 PM
Is Pepe LePew an attempt by animator Chuck Jones to objectify women, to keep them subjegated, and to condone lascivous behaviour by men? Or is it more likely that the little skunk with the big libido is just a cartoon character loosely based on the then-popular actor Charles Boyer (who played a similar character named, coincidently, Pepe Le Moko in the movie Algiers)?

hmmmm, Could Be!!!

Or, maybe I've watched way too many WB cartoons...

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TT

"Believe those who seek the truth.
Doubt those who find it." --Andre Gide

Markxxx
09-24-1999, 11:58 PM
A lot of you are still missing the point. The cat isn't offended by anything other than the fact that Pepe is a skunk. Pepe only finds her attractive because he thinks she IS a skunk.

She is repelled by Pepe because he smells. Not because he is harrassing her (which he is). She looks horrified because he smells. Not because of the sex.

The funny part is EVERYONE in the cartoon is repelled by Pepe, even the human characters. BUT he doesn't seem to know how repelling he is.

It is a great lesson in many areas. First Pepe only likes the cat as he thinks she is a skunk. This is akin to only dating inside your own race or religion. The cat is repelled by Pepe as he is a skunk. She doesn't even give him a chance she is frightened from the first time she sets eyes on him because he smells. This is a good lesson in not to judge people. Nice people sometimes stink.

BTW I think Pepe is the dullest of the WB lot, it is, like the Road Runner, a one shot joke.

GuanoLad
09-25-1999, 04:51 AM
This is only loosely related, but what the heck I figured I'd throw it in just for larks.

In Britain in the sixties, there was this psychedelic little kids 'cartoon' (actually stop motion animation) called The Magic Roundabout and it was very much totally bizarrely out there. Famous for it's drug-crazed visuals.

They had such characters as Zebedee the thing on a spring, Dougal the dog, Brian the Snail, you had to see it. Dylan the hippy Rabbit was an obvious parody.

Anyway, in one episode, Ermintrude the cow finds these 'pills' where if she eats them she can 'fly'. And the whole episode has her trying to convince all the other characters how wonderful it is to take these pills and fly around.

Well, I'm so glad that was peddled to three year olds in the sixties, aren't you?

prleone
10-03-1999, 04:22 AM
Yes, pepe's French! 'nuff said. At the time, all europeans were thought of as mashers towards women. He's also sympathetic, thinking all women are his, yet still loveless after many attempts in seven minutes. Besides, the cat is cute!

How's this for annoying?

Has anyone noticed on major networks, (Nickelodeon, TNT, Cartoon Network) our favorite old cartoons have been edited out of pure paranoia.

E.G.: Daffy Duck, in an attempt to upstage Bugs once and for all, swallows gasoline, uranium 238, nitro-glycerin and a match. This is edited to only include uranium 238 and the match! With TV ratings these days, editors think kids will try it. We're all ALIVE! I assume...

Koxinga
10-03-1999, 06:00 AM
Has anyone noticed on major networks, (Nickelodeon, TNT, Cartoon Network) our favorite old cartoons have been edited out of pure paranoia.

(Trying out the HTML "quote" function for the first time here, hope it works.)

What I hate even more is the tendency of some networks to chop up classic cartoons to suit the shorter attention spans of today's rug rats. Sophisticated humor of the Chuck Jones variety gets relegated to same level as yuk-yuk gags of more recent and far inferior cartoons.

One thing I'd note, though, is the fact that a lot of classic cartoons don't get shown *anywhere* because of their racial or political content--especially the ones with Al Jolson-style blackface minstrel gags, or the more jingoistic WWII patriotic/propagandistic cartoons. Not that I think that they're children's fare--if anything, the kiddies simply wouldn't understand what they were seeing. But I think it's sad that most of the public has never been exposed to cartoons that are at least as classic as any repetitious Road Runner cartoon.

And whatever happened to Hekyll and Jekyll?

DHR

the first supraliminal
10-03-1999, 07:49 AM
Women will decide in the first minute or so whether they really "want it" or not.

The rest is either true stalking, or just bullshit games.

So many times I've chased (stalked?, what's the difference?) women who were resistant, and when I stopped, it was a pathetic, "Why'd you stop?"



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There's always another beer.

David B
10-03-1999, 09:00 AM
prleone said:Has anyone noticed on major networks, (Nickelodeon, TNT, Cartoon Network) our favorite old cartoons have been edited out of pure paranoia.I'm not sure it's all paranoia, or anti-violence. When watching some 'toons with my son, I've noticed Bugs Bunny cartoons edited at spots where I know some violent act was about to take place. For example, somebody aims a gun and fires, but then we just see the very final part where Daffy all mussed up. < sigh >

SterlingNorth
10-07-1999, 04:23 AM
One cartoon, from Warners, that I have been hearing good things about will probably NEVER be shown on American television. Even Whoopi Goldberg thinks it's funny. People fear it is racist. It stereotypes black people with all of the traditional black face giant-lips characatures. However it is redeeming because it shows black people as heros in their own environment and not some maid or slave. It was beautifully animated and lively (or so I'm told. I nver saw this)

Its "Coal Black and De Sebben Dwarves" by Bob Clampett. If anyone of y'all ever seen it, is it any good?

SterlingNorth
10-07-1999, 04:37 AM
Oh yeah!

If you want to see how the pros overanalyze cartoons, point your browsers here!
http://members.aol.com/TheGriffon/cartoon.html

longjohn
10-13-1999, 09:02 AM
On a related subject, could anyone confirm whether Tom & Jerry derive their names from the Tommies and Jerries - nicknames for US and German forces in WWII? If so, why do US cartoons always show Tom being whipped? Could Butch the bulldog who always saves Jerry from a beating be a British Bulldog? And if so, who is the pathetic little duckling with the deathwish that pops up from time to time?

Picking up on the mention of the Magic Roundabout, it was actually French animation, voiced by a British actor who made up the plot as he went along, as no-one understood the French version. The british version when placed in context would actually comment quite perceptively on issues in the news of the day. It was just picked up on by the chemically advantaged, who latched on to the bright colours. Still cool, though.

tracer
10-13-1999, 01:39 PM
SterlingNorth wrote:

Its "Coal Black and De Sebben Dwarves" by Bob Clampett. If anyone of y'all ever seen it, is it any good?

I haven't seen "Coal Black and De Sebben Dwarfs", but I've seen a similar Tex Avery cartoon called "Uncle Tom's Cabaña".

Like the way you described Coal Black, Uncle Tom's Cabaña would almost certainly be viewed as racist by modern hypersensitive TV editors.

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Quick-N-Dirty Aviation: Trading altitude for airspeed since 1992.

JBENZ
10-13-1999, 03:23 PM
Geez...you guys are really hard on poor Pepe. He's just another in a long line of poor schmoes whose over developed and delusional self image is the source of the humor. Wiley Coyote and Sylvester in endless pursuit of the elusive boids. Charlie Brown trying to get Lucy to hold the football (to say nuthin' of the pitcher's mound). Chester A. Riley, Ralph Cramden, The Kingfish, Al Bundy.

He's a SKUNK fer crissakes...of course it's funny that he thinks he's a great lover and can't recognize rejection. It ain't about sex, it's about self deception and delusion taken to the point of absurdity. That look of terror in the kitty's face is the absolute mirror of the look on the Frog's puss when La Belle Porkette pounces on him. (You can't tell me that Frank Oz didn't watch one too many Pepe cartoons before he dreamed up Ms. Piggy).

Pepe's just like all the rest of us poor schlubs who spend our whole lives trying to be John Wayne and end up being Gabby Hayes. We have met the skunk and he is us.



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JB
Lex Non Favet Delictorum Votis

Alphagene
10-13-1999, 04:11 PM
If you have a RealPlayer, you can watch Coal Black here:

http://www2.wi.net/~rkurer/coalblack.ram

tomndebb
10-14-1999, 12:14 AM
"Tom and Jerry" is the name of a cocktail (more popular in the 30's and 40's).

SterlingNorth
10-18-1999, 05:21 PM
I tried all week, I can't connect to the site.

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To lying, cheating, stealing, and drinking.

Always lie to save a friend, cheat death,
steal your love's heart, and drink with good friends.
---Madison Michele

White Wolf
10-18-1999, 10:01 PM
I don't know about you guys, but I've always wished that for ONCE Wile E. would catch the Road Runner. I've always felt a nagging dislike for the stupid bird who could run through paintings on rocks and can only say "Meep."

------------------

White Wolf

"Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is a better defense."

"Half the world is composed of idiots, the other half of people clever enough to take indecent advantage of them."

The_Peyote_Coyote
10-18-1999, 10:16 PM
Dear WhiteWolf:
I agree with you. Even as a kid, I wanted the coyote to eat that damn bird. I guess I've always sympathized with predators.

BoBettie
10-19-1999, 07:40 PM
FWIW, Pepe always gave me the creeps too...grabbing that kitty and forcing kisses all over her while she tried to run away crying "le pant! le pant!" F---ing creepy in my book...
Anyway, for those Wile E Coyote fans out there, please read this: http://www.itr.qc.ca/~mario/acme-law.html
Read the whole thing..it's quite funny :)

------------------
Some mornings it just doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through the leather straps.
Zettecity (http://www.angelfire.com/ny3/zettecity/index.html)

Arken
10-20-1999, 01:25 PM
Wow! Way too many things to address...

Okay, first of all, I've seen Coal Black and De Sebben Dwarves. I can certainly see why it's insensitive and racist, but my personal problem with it was that it just wasn't that funny. The music was pretty good however. I got a copy along with a bunch of other censored cartoons at DragonCon, a gigantic Sci-Fi/Fantasy convention which also happens to be a mecca for video tape bootleggers.

Secondly, Wile E. Coyote (I'm sick of people calling him Wiley Coyote, aren't you?) DID catch the road runner once. Unfortunately, due to the folks at Acme Growth Hormone Labs and one of Wile's plans, the road runner was about 500 feet tall. The cartoon ends with Wile hanging on to RR's huge leg and holding up a sign that reads "Now that I have him, what do you want me to do with him?"

Finally, if you want to talk about disturbing cartoon chases, let's talk about Screwball Squirrel. The three Screwball Squirrel cartoons were the three cartoons that Tex Avery had total creative control over and they are all completely insane. The basic plot is your regular chase plot... screwball being chased by a large dog. The difference is (and if you think about it, this is very unusual in cartoons) Screwball DESERVES to be chased! One of the cartoons I can remember starts with Screwball walking down the road and unprovokedly kicking the dog. Of course, Screwball also wins at the end because the chased character almost always wins. Still, Screwball provoking the dog into chasing him and then winning disturbed me a lot more as a kid than a French skunk chasing a French cat painted like a skunk.

krish
10-20-1999, 05:08 PM
Wow. Now I've started thinking about Thundercats, my favorite show as a kid. It kind of scares me.

In regards to Warner Bros. cartoons today, Steven Speilberg's The Anamaniacs also includes a lot of humor geared to adults along with the usual anvil dropping.

Other cartoons today are just blatant with this kind of humor. South Park, anyone?

FrankMann
10-22-1999, 11:03 PM
It's funny but the Pepe the Skunk cartoons were the only Warner Bros cartoons I didn't like. Now I know why. As for Olive Oyl I always figured whoever wound up with her in the end was the loser! Probably the ugliest woman ever drawn.

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occ
10-25-1999, 01:48 PM
I think the point that everyone is forgetting is that Pepe LePew cartoons were never funny.

10-25-1999, 01:59 PM
How about the unhealthy psychodrama going on between Krazy Kat and Ignatz Mouse? Krazy (female) is obssessed with Ignatz (male), who keeps heaving bricks at her skull. "L'il darlin'!" she squeals happily. Ick!

And to paraphrase Jean Harlow in Red Dust: "Hmm, a cat and a mouse, huh? Wonder how THIS is gonna turn out . . ."

Ukulele Ike
10-25-1999, 02:08 PM
Krazy Kat was FEMALE?

------------------
Uke

10-25-1999, 02:19 PM
You thought Krazy was gay?

Whatsamatter, ya never picked up her tail and peeked?

tracer
10-25-1999, 03:05 PM
Well, obviously, Krazy Kat was a pussy....

Ukulele Ike
10-25-1999, 03:24 PM
I always thought Krazy was genderless.

Except when that Tiger Tea put testosterone in her tank...

Polycarp
10-25-1999, 03:30 PM
This worries me. We always seem to get into analyzing the sexual ambiguities of cartoons. So...

Have you ever considered the parallels between the careers of Milton Berle and Bugs Bunny?

JBENZ
10-26-1999, 06:00 AM
Only to the extent that Bugs looked better in a dress and seldom stole other people's jokes.

Always thought Jerry & Tuffy were a bit swish though. Maybe Tom was just a gay basher ahead of his time.



------------------
JB
Lex Non Favet Delictorum Votis

RoboDude
11-01-1999, 07:15 PM
---------------------------------------------
Finally, if you want to talk about disturbing cartoon chases, let's talk about Screwball Squirrel. The three Screwball Squirrel cartoons were the three cartoons that Tex Avery had total creative control over and they are all completely insane. The basic plot is your regular chase plot... screwball being chased by a large dog. The difference is (and if you think about it, this is very unusual in cartoons) Screwball DESERVES to be chased! One of the cartoons I can remember starts with Screwball walking down the road and unprovokedly kicking the dog. Of course, Screwball also wins at the end because the chased character almost always wins. Still, Screwball provoking the dog into chasing him and then winning disturbed me a lot more as a kid than a French skunk chasing a French cat painted like a skunk.
---------------------------------------------
Sounds like a miniature Foghorn Leghorn.

Anyway, you want to talk about inane cartoon characters? Here's something I found on http://www.laughpage.com/archive/


Top 10 Worst Cartoon Characters

#10- Tweety Bird- You know there's a problem when every single kid roots for the "hero" to be devoured in each episode. No sense of humor. No personality. Annoying voice. Plus he was always tattling. I knew kids like this growing up. Most of them ate paste, sat in the front of the bus, and got me in trouble.

#9- Grape Ape- A real moron. All he knows how to say is his name. And he does so non-stop for a half an hour. I'd rather watch "Davey and Goliath covet their neighbors model airplane."

#8- Olive Oyl- Am I the only one out there who thought this was one lady NOT worth fighting over? And that's what they did every episode! She talks like Edith Bunker and looks like a pipe cleaner with a cheap hat. Hey, Popeye, you're a sailor... you can do better! Plus Olive can never decide if she wants to date that jerk Bluto or not. The girl is just bad news.

#7- Petunia Pig- Remember her? Porky's girlfriend? She was a real zero. What was the point of her anyway? To make Porky look good? Come on, who did they think they're fooling. We all know Porky is gay.

#6- Pebbles & Bam-Bam, as teenagers- What were they thinking? Were they trying to cash in on the "Joanie loves Chachi" thing? And how come every cartoon teenager plays in crumby rock band? An awful -and thankfully shortlived- idea.

#5- Pepe LePew- Hello, Warner Brothers, ever heard of sexual harassment? Let's take a good look at this character; a horny, rapist skunk who's attracted to other species! NOT good for the kids. Plus, worse still, he's French.

#4- Alan, from Josie and the Pussy Cats- How weak was this "Fred" clone? They even gave him an ascot, for crying out loud. Well, I knew Fred. I grew up with Fred. Fred was like a friend of mine. Let me tell you something...you're no Fred.

#3- Zan and Zana, the Wondertwins- How many times do we have to say it? Leave the crimefighting to the professionals! "Form of... an idiot!" They should have been voted out of the Hall of Justice a long time ago. There's no room for dead weight in this game.

#2- Kazoo, from the Flintstones- It's like "Hmmm, a miniature, green spaceman who appears only to Fred Flintstone isn't enough of a stretch. I know! Let's give him a snotty London accent!" Um, could I get a drug test from Hanna Barbara, please?

#1- Scrappy Doo- And, really, who else COULD it be? This guy ruined Scooby Doo! Just came in and ruined it! Scrappy is the Yoko Ono of
Saturday morning cartoons. I can't even talk about it anymore. It's too upsetting.

tracer
11-02-1999, 07:25 PM
RoboDude quoted:

#3- Zan and Zana, the Wondertwins- How many times do we have to say it? Leave the crimefighting to the professionals! "Form of... an idiot!" They should have been voted out of the Hall of Justice a long time ago. There's no room for dead weight in this game.

Tsk tsk tsk. Everyone knows the girl's name was JANA (pronounced JAY-nuh), not Zana.

And how much "crimefighting" did they actually do? Here's a typical Super Friends episode: Green Lantern and Wonder Woman stop a mad scientist from erasing the entire past, Superman and Apache Chief battle a giant so large he can pick the Earth up with two fingers, ... and Zan and Jana keep a hitch-hiker from getting assaulted.

And another thing. Jana can turn into any animal she can imagine. Why not just turn into a planet-sized firebreathing dragon every time? Why change into a wimpy old eagle or camel? And why doesn't Zan just turn into a fully-functioning ice replica of the Starship Enterprise?! Enquiring minds want to know!!

------------------
Quick-N-Dirty Aviation: Trading altitude for airspeed since 1992.

Markxxx
11-02-1999, 07:36 PM
occ

I think the point that everyone is forgetting is that Pepe LePew cartoons were never funny

Someone must have liked them otherwise they would've only made one.

Markxxx
11-02-1999, 07:37 PM
occ

I think the point that everyone is
forgetting is that Pepe LePew
cartoons were never funny

Someone must have liked them
otherwise they would've only made
one.

elelle
11-02-1999, 08:24 PM
This seems to be a long gone thread, but I've just read it and didn't see:

My reading of the Pepe Le Pew cartoons is that, while Pepe is in pursuit of L'Amour, that he is deluded (by chance accident) in his ideals. And that the over-arching statement on his method is; Whew, this guy STINKS. It's a take on the French, yeah, but as an example of "slick-talking", which is delusional and suffocating.

Cartoonists & animators are an astute bunch of folks, to my mind, and provide great commentary that flies under the radar of whatever the dominant mores are at the time. With as much grunt work that has always gone into animation, I'd think that the storyline would have much thought as well. I really admire all in the Warner Bros. crew for making intelligent parables for all us boomers & beyond, and in a time when freedom of expression wasn't as loose as it is now. If you compare the intellectual content of WB/Chuck Jones cartoons vs. Disney, well, there's just no... Let's see what happens when we're all 80ish, and our mythology comes babbling out. My bet's on Pismo Beach.

RoboDude
11-02-1999, 08:50 PM
And if you want to talk about making a bad impression, ckeck out http://www.rit.edu/~mwp6741/comedy/druguser.html

elelle
11-02-1999, 10:00 PM
For whatever reason, when I tried to get the 2nd page of this thread it didn't come up. So, it's not long gone, and JBENZ did touch on the delusional aspect of Mr. Le Pew.

As to Olive Oyl(kinda slippery), I think her total unattractiveness(as opposed to her contemporary Ms. Boop) was the means to a commentary on the foibles of romantic pursuit. I suspect that the animators of that age would be analogous to the " computer geeks" of this age--- individuals who were plenty smart and using new technology to fly past the idiots. Amen.

torq
11-03-1999, 03:25 PM
Pepe's "stalker tendencies" never bothered me that much. Spike from Happy Days, on the other hand... now HE was DISTURBING.

I haven't seen anyone mention this yet: on the relatively recent Tiny Toons, there's a character named "Fifi la Fume" or something like that who is always involved in essentially the same plot as every Pepe cartoon. But, see, she's a GIRL, so it's FUNNY, I suppose.

I'm pretty sure that there's also an episode of Pepe where he gets de-stinked somehow (falls into a vat of perfume, maybe?) and the cat is chasing HIM.

Drain Bead
11-03-1999, 04:49 PM
Ha! That cartoon druggie link insinuated that Yogi and BooBoo are gay! After a very long argument last year, I was convinced that I was the only person on earth who saw that.

------------------
And I wonder when I sing along with you, if everything could ever feel this real
forever,
If anything could ever be this good again.
--Foo Fighters

mamababy
09-13-2012, 05:09 PM
Yeah, and Roadrunner cartoons are amusing until you have been through the horror of ingesting Earthquake Pills.

And a friend of mine who was nearly killed after trying out this Rocket-Powered Rollerskates still can't sit through a full episode without crying.

This is the best response of all.
Thank you Alphagene.
I haven't laughed out loud like that in a long time.

Bryan Ekers
09-13-2012, 05:18 PM
Looks like Alphagene last posted when Bush was re-elected, so don't hold your breath waiting for a "you're welcome".

Kobal2
09-13-2012, 05:29 PM
I just thought the cartoon was a knock against the french- they think that they're "zee greatest luv-airs, non?" even when being rebuffed. And they stink to boot.

Hey, now ! Zere is no "two bewt" zere ! Ze stink is part and parcel of wat makes us ze greatest loveurs of ze weurld. Of curse, yoo AHmehricans woodun't anderstand - you 'ave no kültchüre.

Joke aside, while Pepe doesn't particularly offend me I'll admit I sometimes do have conflicting feelings re-watching Tom & Jerry cartoons as a reluctant adult - they're clearly written and designed expecting the viewer to cheer for Jerry ; but Jerry is such a deliberately provocative douche most of the time, and Tom only suffers grievous bodily harm because he can't help feeding the troll... It's kinda sad, really, when you think about it for much too long and have had a little too much to drink.

ETA: FUCK ! Zombied without my consent ! Or knowledge. There oughta be laws.

Really Not All That Bright
09-13-2012, 05:49 PM
Zombie awakening totally worth it for the opportunity to make fun of Drain Bead for having a Foo Fighters lyric as her sig.

Marley23
09-13-2012, 10:11 PM
I'm wondering if this thread is older than Cafe Society. It might be. Anyway, moved from Great Debates. And fixing the title. His name is Pepe le Pew, not PePe La Pue.

Zebra
09-14-2012, 12:19 AM
This thread is so old it's got whiskers on it.

Der Trihs
09-14-2012, 12:58 AM
I'm wondering if this thread is older than Cafe Society. It might be. Cafe Society appears to go back to only 2001, so yeah this is apparently older.

The Universe Lashes Out
09-14-2012, 01:27 AM
Holy shit, this makes me feel old. "WallyM7, isn't he... wait, what?" And I still think of Cafe Society as the new forum.

Peter Morris
09-14-2012, 03:09 AM
Finally, if you want to talk about disturbing cartoon chases, let's talk about Screwball Squirrel. ... The difference is (and if you think about it, this is very unusual in cartoons) Screwball DESERVES to be chased!

Not that unusual. Jerry is a thief. Usually the trouble starts with him stealing someone else's food.


Top 10 Worst Cartoon Characters
...
#1- Scrappy Doo- And, really, who else COULD it be?

Godzooky

Bryan Ekers
09-14-2012, 05:27 AM
Godzooky, though (as I recall) was an element in the otherwise unremarkable Godzilla cartoon right from the start. Scrappy-Doo is an addition to an established premise, and it was a good premise up until then.

Alan Smithee
09-14-2012, 05:35 AM
And I still think of Cafe Society as the new forum.Yeah, me too! And I still think they never should have added it! Five forums was plenty!

astorian
09-14-2012, 09:39 AM
I remember in a lot of the pepe cartoons,once the paint wore off the cat,he didn't want her anymore,then She suddenly wanted Him,and started pursuing Him! I think most cartoons are characters chasing another,and never catching them. :(

Exactly- for instance, in one episode, Pepe and the female cat both fell out a window. She landed in a barrel of water and he landed in a bucket of blue paint. She came out looking horrible and he came out both handsome and odor-free... at which point SHE started chasing him lustfully, while he ran for his life, whining, "Perhaps it eez possible to be TOO attractive."

It's a lot like the old Benny Hill sketches that some feminists find offensive. Sure, Benny ogles and pursues nubile girls half his age... but the sketch ALWAYS ends up with Benny running for dear life, to the tune of "Yakkity Sax."

OtisCampbellWasRight
09-14-2012, 10:13 AM
Is this a record for zombie thread revival?

Bryan Ekers
09-14-2012, 07:10 PM
When this thread began, Jon Stewart (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/05/08/stewart-asks-france-why-are-your-skunks-so-date-rapey/) was still settling in.

Really Not All That Bright
09-14-2012, 07:18 PM
When this thread began, I was just settling in to my first dorm. Erk.

Biggirl
09-14-2012, 07:41 PM
Holy smokes! What a fun stroll down memory lane. Uke Ike, I miss you!

JohnT
09-14-2012, 10:05 PM
Hey, zombies! Don't vote for Nader next year, especially if you live in FL. kthxbai!

aldiboronti
09-15-2012, 04:50 AM
*sigh*

I find that ONE cartoon disturbing...just that one.
I am trying to debate the 'meaning' or 'theme' of that ONE cartoon.

My OP talks about the way PePe tries to force himself on the kitty....even children didnt find it funny.

Which is hardly relevant as the cartoons weren't made for children.

Wendell Wagner
09-15-2012, 05:31 AM
It wasn't just cartoons that seemed to accept stalking back then. It was everything. Yeah, I know that Pepe Le Pew was shown to be a jerk and didn't get the female he wanted, but that sort of character was more acceptable back then. Look at any medium back then - movies, cartoons, songs, fiction, etc. Frequently the stalker would end up getting the person they were stalking. Sometimes they were shown to be obnoxious and would have to give up, but you rarely see the outright revulsion that stalking gets today. Stalking often seemed to be portrayed as cute back then, even when the stalker eventually gives up.

Bryan Ekers
09-15-2012, 08:23 AM
I was cheering for the wild cat (from Wild Over You) because she could and did beat the crap out of Pepé, not that that deterred him.

Really Not All That Bright
09-15-2012, 11:08 AM
It wasn't just cartoons that seemed to accept stalking back then. It was everything. Yeah, I know that Pepe Le Pew was shown to be a jerk and didn't get the female he wanted, but that sort of character was more acceptable back then. Look at any medium back then - movies, cartoons, songs, fiction, etc. Frequently the stalker would end up getting the person they were stalking. Sometimes they were shown to be obnoxious and would have to give up, but you rarely see the outright revulsion that stalking gets today. Stalking often seemed to be portrayed as cute back then, even when the stalker eventually gives up.
Hell, in Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, the brothers beat up everyone in the town, carry off screaming women, and everyone lives happily ever after - and TCM screens the film in the middle of the day.

mamababy
01-10-2014, 03:22 PM
Yeah, and Roadrunner cartoons are amusing until you have been through the horror of ingesting Earthquake Pills.

And a friend of mine who was nearly killed after trying out this Rocket-Powered Rollerskates still can't sit through a full episode without crying.[/QUOTE]

:smack::confused: (mamababy9@gmail.com)





It's all just too tragic...
Earthquake pills are 100 times more addictive than meth. Oh yeah, and every time I get a new pair of rocket skates some quakehead rips me off again and the ACME Company products are not eligible for Prime two day free shipping at Amazon !
As Pepe Le Pew would say, "Quelle damage". But C'est la vie, that's life in Toontown...right ?

mamababy
01-10-2014, 03:25 PM
Yeah, and Roadrunner cartoons are amusing until you have been through the horror of ingesting Earthquake Pills.

And a friend of mine who was nearly killed after trying out this Rocket-Powered Rollerskates still can't sit through a full episode without crying.

:smack::confused: (mamababy9@gmail.com)





It's all just too tragic...
Earthquake pills are 100 times more addictive than meth. Oh yeah, and every time I get a new pair of rocket skates some quakehead rips me off again and the ACME Company products are not eligible for Prime two day free shipping at Amazon !
As Pepe Le Pew would say, "Quelle damage". But C'est la vie, that's life in Toontown...right ?[/QUOTE]

bup
01-10-2014, 03:29 PM
3 total posts. 2 today in this thread.

Recent hacking of SDMB passwords.

Hmm.

mamababy
01-10-2014, 03:30 PM
I need a new vendor for earthquake pills and rocket skates. Anyone out there have a suggestion ?
thanks very much,
Mamaw
Beverly Hills, CA

dougie_monty
01-10-2014, 03:55 PM
Remember those cartoons?
The way he tries to force himself on the poor hapless black kitty (who unfortunately has a mishap with the white paint) that he thinks is a skunk.

Isnt that a metaphor for the over amourous date who thinks the girl 'wants it" because of how she is dressed?

She never gets away, no matter what she does, and I never really found that funny...it was a little disturbing.

Is that what the animators were trying to convey?

Your thoughts?

My thoughts are that the writer is ignorant about skunks, and about French. Even if I grant that skunks really can't talk, cats can't either. And a skunk should know the difference between skunk scent and the smell of house paint!

SeldomSeen
01-10-2014, 08:48 PM
Egad!....Antiquarian polecat zombies! They're so.... so.... 20th century.

But seriously, I believe 09-20-1999 is the most senior zombie post I've seen herein. Nearly 15 years.

johnpost
01-10-2014, 11:06 PM
true to your word then.

Just Asking Questions
01-10-2014, 11:36 PM
3 total posts. 2 today in this thread.

Recent hacking of SDMB passwords.

Hmm.

Especially interesting as she was the original reviver of this zombie back in Sept 2012. She joined just to make that post, and then returns 16 months later to revive it again? So all three posts are in this thread.

Weird!

levdrakon
01-10-2014, 11:42 PM
Pepe was a well meaning charmer. The cat was the bitch. She wouldn't even consider him because he was the wrong race, class, culture, etc. That's what I got as a kid. She didn't deserve him.

Women love being stalked. In movies. If the guy is hot. They'll watch those movies over and over and over.

dougie_monty
01-11-2014, 02:19 AM
Pepe was a well meaning charmer. The cat was the bitch. She wouldn't even consider him because he was the wrong race, class, culture, etc. That's what I got as a kid. She didn't deserve him.

Women love being stalked. In movies. If the guy is hot. They'll watch those movies over and over and over.

Don't blame the cat (who wasn't necessarily female). The cat was always mute. Suppose he/she told Pepe, "You're wrong--I'm not even a skunk!"?

Gagundathar
01-11-2014, 08:03 AM
I came on here specifically to complain that some of the links in the first part of this thread don't work! Is there no quality control here? Harrumph!

I hated Pepe Le Pew when I was a kid. I remember very clearly that the cat had a real look of terror of her face when she was pursued. I wanted to protect her and kick some skunk butt. Of course, I was about 5 years old at the time, so I didn't go hunting skunks in my suburban wilderness preserve. We had possums and squirrels but no skunks.

levdrakon
01-11-2014, 02:04 PM
Don't blame the cat (who wasn't necessarily female).<snip>Ha! More prejudice! :)

Musicat
01-11-2014, 02:09 PM
I came on here specifically to complain that some of the links in the first part of this thread don't work! Is there no quality control here? Harrumph!Blame WallyM7, last seen in 2001.

dougie_monty
01-11-2014, 05:04 PM
Ha! More prejudice! :)

[Shrug] Well, look at Pepe; he almost always had his eyes closed.