Boxcutter-Smugglin' Kid--Hero or Goat?

[Eve]

Just saw an NBC story on that college student who admitted to smuggling boxcutters and modeling clay aboard airplanes, which went undiscovered for months. "It was a major crime and very, very dangerous," said an official.

Sounds to me like they're just pissed-off because he showed up airline security as the total joke we all suspected it was. Frankly, I think he should be considered a whistle-blower.

[Rashak Mani]

Why didnt the kid report that he managed to do so ? Months later isn't much help is it... :)

I would never get even close to considering it a crime... let alone a serious "major crime".

[Eve]

He did report it . . . He sent the airline a series of e-mails, and left notes with the smuggled material--which, of course, went completely unfound for months.

[kaylasdad99]

"Thou shalt not put the Lord thy Ashcroft to the test."

:rolleyes:

[Eve]

According to an FBI affidavit, Heatwole's signed e-mail "stated that he was aware his actions were against the law and that he was aware of the potential consequences for his actions, and that his actions were an `act of civil disobedience with the aim of improving public safety for the air-traveling public.'"

However, U.S. Attorney Thomas DiBiagio said Heatwole's conduct "was not a prank. This was not poor judgment. ... It was not a test. It was not a civil action. It was a very serious and foolish action."

[Rashak Mani]

Originally posted by Eve
However, U.S. Attorney Thomas DiBiagio said Heatwole's conduct "was not a prank. This was not poor judgment. ... It was not a test. It was not a civil action. It was a very serious and foolish action."

Is it about the boy or the airline security he is talking about ? :)

[Quack]

[The Cheat's flash cartoons]

Here, The College Kid, have a trophy!

[/TCfc]

Seriously, this is yet another example of the fumbling clumsiness of the airline security measures. U.S. Attorney DiBaigio should be shaking this kid's hand for showing them where they could tighten things up, not putting him on trial by media.

[Jonathan Chance]

I'd chalk the kid up as a renegade folk hero, myself.

The dirty secret the TSA isn't willing to face is that no amount of making us take our shoes off in airports is going to prevent another 9/11 style attack if the hijackers are smart and determined.

This kid just said 'The Emperor has no clothes' in such a way as to embarass the administration. For that he'll get slapped a bit.

[Already in Use]

Link. (http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20031020_1435.html)
Link. (http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=391002&section=news)
Linkety link. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-3288297,00.html)

There are a bunch of issues involved (aren't there always?) While it did make a good, albeit scary, point about the continuing laxity in security, the official counterargument could be that it diverts important resources away from watching out for real terrorism. Granted, there don't seem to be any resources diverted at all in this case, and there are obviously resulting benefits as well. But the other reason for arresting him is the need to make an example of him. If he does it, what's there to stop everyone from doing it and potentially putting a halt to airline transportation?

So I can understand the reasons it's illegal. That said, was it immoral? I don't think so, since the benefits seem to be outweighing the risks.

But modeling clay? Are you really not allowed to bring that on a plane? I could see how it could look like plastique or something, but I just never thought about it before.

[TVAA]

More Hero than Goat. Frankly, I don't think he's much of either -- the real star of this debacle isn't the student, but the irrational response of the Powers that Be.

[Jonathan Chance]

Watch them WORK, boyee!

[Duckster]

On Sept. 15, the TSA received an e-mail from Heatwole saying he had "information regarding six security breaches" at the Raleigh-Durham and Baltimore-Washington airports between Feb. 7 and Sept. 14, the FBI affidavit said.

The TSA did not send the e-mail to the FBI until last Friday. FBI agents then located Heatwole and interviewed him. Source: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=716&e=3&u=/ap/20031020/ap_on_re_us/planes_searched

It bears repeating: The TSA did not send the e-mail to the FBI until last Friday.

We've had the largest reorganization of the federal government (since the FDR era) to eliminate inter-agency screwups.

Also, MSNBC News reported today (Of course, no cite. They seldom cite their stories.) that the test for TSA employees is so poorly written it's should be no surprise TSA staff are not finding things.


It's not working.


:D

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

I understand why the kid did this. At the same time, that's like six different kinds of stupid of him. He apparently realized he would be caught. What in the current Administration's actions or attitudes made him think they had a sense of humor? Or does he really think it's going to be worth his spending his early adulthood in a prison in order to make his particular point in this particular fashion?

Daniel

[LorieSmurf]

Airlines should give that kid a job.

Apparently he does realize how serious it was, and it'll be worth him spending time in prison. If he DOES spend time in prison. This shit might get so much hype that he might get off very light. Seriously, it made the airline securities look like total inept fools. Don't you think it'll make them look even tons more foolish to prosecute this kid to the full extent?

[musicguy]

Let's see if the Bush administration continues to boast about how much safer we are, due to the changes in security it has implemented.

A 20 year old kid is able to bring weapons on board an aircraft numerous times, sends the FBI an email telling them, and it takes them 4 months to figure it out.

Yeah, I feel a hell of a lot safer.

[Cervaise]

Hero or goat? Why not both?

The thing about civil disobedience is, you know you're breaking the law and you know you'll get charged and tried and probably sentenced, but you do it anyway in order to prove a point. Saying an act was civil disobedience is not a get-out-of-jail card. Otherwise I'd go parade my bong in front of city hall, squealing, "Civil disobedience! Civil disobedience! Wanna toke?"

Of course, I haven't seen any indication that the kid is trying to get out of anything or dodge the consequences. He may be surprised that the government is coming down on him so hard, but from everything I've seen he's just clenching his jaw and sucking it up. If that's an accurate perception, it suggests the kid's got some guts.

The most priceless quote, in my opinion, is this one, from Steve McHale, who goes by the title of Transport Security Administration Deputy Administrator. Ahem:

"Amateur testing of the system like this does not in any way assist us or show us where there are flaws."

Yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyeah. Not a flaw. Nope. Nothing to see. Move along. These are not the box cutters you're looking for. You can go about your business.

In a perfect world, the kid is charged and found (or pleads) guilty. The Bush Administration, recognizing the potentially negative fallout on the PR front, gives him a minimum sentence, thereby sending the message that they don't want to be buried by this kind of nonsense, and the kid has to pay for his obviously illegal actions, but that it nonetheless served a useful purpose. But being as politically tone-deaf as they have obviously proved themselves to be, they're going to react with spite and humiliation and seek every possible charge against the kid they can justify.

How the kid reacts to this ridiculous bit of political overkill will determine, in my mind, where on the hero <——> goat continuum he lands. If he shakes his head and quietly takes it, he's a hero, and indeed a martyr. If he bitches and moans and indicates he doesn't think he deserves a nanosecond of jail time, he's a goat. Adjustments should be made therefrom.

[Krokodil]

Hackers and virus-spreaders believe they're performing a public service by illuminating security holes. I say they owe me the money I've spent getting my computers repaired over the years. This kid is just one more of the same. I don't value his contribution in the least.

[rjung]

Originally posted by musicguy
Let's see if the Bush administration continues to boast about how much safer we are, due to the changes in security it has implemented.

A 20 year old kid is able to bring weapons on board an aircraft numerous times, sends the FBI an email telling them, and it takes them 4 months to figure it out.
Why else would the kid be made to look like a criminal? ;)

[musicguy]

Originally posted by Krokodil
This kid is just one more of the same. I don't value his contribution in the least.

Just out of curiosity, do you fly much? Because I think a lot of people thought they were safer than they actually were.

The inspector general's investigators recently carried knives, a bomb and a gun through Boston Logan International Airport's boarding procedures without being detected.

Both hijacked airliners that crashed into the World Trade Center took off from Logan.


The publicity that this is generating is causing a closer look into security measures that are not apparently working too well. How is that not a good thing?


TSA spokesman Mark Hatfield said the agency was reviewing its procedures.


"Following an event like this, the results usually include adjustments and improvements in the procedures," he said.

[Una Persson]

It's a hard decision. One one hand, you have to feel that his pointing out of the security holes is a Good Thing and that it will improve security processes in the future.

On the other hand, the kid really just pointed out that air travelers can't have it both ways. We want to get on our plane with a minimum of groping, leering, breaking of valuables, and abuse by security - yet at the same time we want every single possible weapon and terrorist to be barred from entry.

You really don't want to fly in a system where every single weapon and terrorist is banned from flying. Can you imagine the level of inspection, harassment, profiling, recordkeeping, intimidation, and fear that a traveler would have to go through every time? They would have to search every single item you carry in detail, laptops and ALL electronics likely would be banned, diabetics could no longer fly with syringes, asthmatics could not fly with inhalers. No liquids or food of any kind would be allowed. No roller bags (you can hide weapons inside or make them out of the metal parts) would be allowed. No baby equipment. Effectively, you would need to have an MRI to make sure you didn't have a (sheathed) ceramic knife in your vagina, or else have deep, deep, DEEP cavity searches each and every time you board a plane.

What this kid did was smuggle items that really cannot effectively be stopped from entry without a herculean effort, and thus I seriously doubt that his efforts will result in any real improvement in security, because there's just so much you can do.

So my judgment is - his effort was essentially pointless.

Now, what about his lawbreaking? I feel about him the same way that I do about journalists who ply a 15-year old with a fake ID and money to buy alcohol so they can film it. Or who buy illegal guns so they can show how easy it is.

I hate to burst the self-righteous bubble that some journalists seem to have, but Society did not appoint them with powers to violate the law as they see fit to offer "assistance" to the police without the express consent of said police. And I sincerely wish that every "crusading journalist" who violates the law without the consent and cooperation of the police gets the appropriate penalty of law based on the circumstances.

Can you imagine this being used as a defense?

"I'm not a terrorist, officer. See, my brother and I are journalists for the Straight Dope, and we're answering a question that a reader sent in, which was 'Can you really smuggle guns onto a plane?' So you can't arrest us, we're heros!"

Or

"Honest officer, the reason I didn't renew my drivers license was to expose the injustice and tyrany in the MVD. In fact, by arresting me for driving without a license, you are perpetuating the injustice and committing a hate crime! HATE CRIME!"

Or even

"Dude - OK. Dude - I was buying the crack to see how easy it was to get, and I'm writing it in school paper. You can't arrest me! My buddy Brandon is over there filming it even, so I got proof I'm a 'journalist'. Now get the fuck out of my way, pig!"

:rolleyes:

In short, I feel this kid should get no special treatment, harsher or milder, than anyone else committing the same crime.

[Desmostylus]

As much as my political views are pretty much the exact opposite of Una's, I have to post a "ditto what she said".

And I'll even nitpick that she didn't go far enough. The level of inspection that Una deems a herculean effort wouldn't work either. It's the kind of intrusive inspection that's used on visitors to prisons. And we all know that that doesn't work, either. Contraband still finds its way into prisons, no matter what kind of screening goes on. The weak point is the staff. And there's just no way in the current environment to address the problem.

[Eve]

Originally posted by Krokodil
Hackers and virus-spreaders believe they're performing a public service by illuminating security holes. I say they owe me the money I've spent getting my computers repaired over the years. This kid is just one more of the same. I don't value his contribution in the least.

Hackers and virus-spreaders cause huge disruptions in business and personal computers and cost people like metime and money to get our computers fixed.

This kid smuggled box-cutters and modeling clay on board some planes and caused no one any harm or disruption—indeed, he had to repeatedly tell them he'd done it.

[robertliguori]

Hackers and virus-spreaders believe they're performing a public service by illuminating security holes. I say they owe me the money I've spent getting my computers repaired over the years. This kid is just one more of the same. I don't value his contribution in the least.

If someone writes a virus, that's one thing. Breaking into your computer, leaving a text file describing how they did it, and emailing you as to the existence of the file is something else.

[D_Odds]

Goat. He didn't demonstrate to any intelligent person what s/he did not already know.

Una said it before I got here. I fly. I know that I cannot fly with 100% assurance that there are no weapons on board. I do believe that efforts have been stepped up, but you will NEVER have 100% assurance. Nor will I ever have 100% assurance someone won't blow up the bridge I travel over on a nearly daily basis (one of the three downtown NYC East River crossings, considered a prime target), despite increased police presence and inspections.

What security needs to do is to let people know that there is an much increased chance of being caught (not saying there is, but security has to at least give that impression). An increased chance of being caught also decreases the likelyhood of a coordinated assault. One man with one boxcutter (or twelve boxcutters) is no longer a threat. The crew and passengers won't allow it any more. Even 5 men might not be able to pull such a stunt off ever again.

Send the punk to jail and let him rot. He's an idiot.

[keithnmick]

The clay the kid carried on should have been picked up at the Xray stage, but it's forgiveable. Clay would not be picked up either by trace detedtion equipment or sniffer dogs, as it bears no chemical similarity to plastic explosive. I have done a fair bit of work for a company that produces the majority of the trace detection equipment used in US airports.

The box cutters may be more serious, but does anyone really think the same ploy the hijackers used on Sep 11th would work again? Would a plane full of people really believe that the plane was just being hijacked, and not used as a weapon again?

[Uncommon Sense]

It could have caused harm. Even though he didn`t intend it to.

If he had been caught with this stuff in the airport it would have stopped air traffic in that airport for a few hours. Or it may have been discovered in-flight causing panic onboard the plane.

It also sets up a copy-cat environment where others may try to smuggle this type of stuff onboard and when they`re caught they can use the same excuse. That is why I think he deserves some time for it, though not the ten years max. Maybe one year with probation and/or a heavy fine.

[plnnr]

"What security needs to do is to let people know that there is an much increased chance of being caught (not saying there is, but security has to at least give that impression)."

I think that the young man's actions clearly show that there ISN'T an increased chance of getting caught - as has been pointed out, he told the authorities what he did and it took them 4 months to take any action. If, as you suggest, things have to be done only for effect, or to give an impression, than the kid's done exactly that - he's made a pretty big impression.

[D_Odds]

Isn't there, plnnr. I often see short spots on local news about all the items that do get confiscated on airline flights. Again, there is no 100% guarantee of security. There isn't even a 99%, not if you want to fly the same day you arrive at the airport. Items will get through - I don't need a 20 year old punk to tell me that.

Could the airline have better followed up? I think so. Does that absolve the punk? Not in the least.

Fry him*

*For the hyperbole-impaired, that means I hope he gets some jail time - enough to at least send a message to future wannabes

[Rysler]

I just want to say that I'm alumni (Class of '00) of his college, and I'm rather proud of him. Community service and peaceful means of changing the world are tenets of Guilford, and he's taking an active role in the safety of our country. Certainly more than I'm doing.

On one hand, my vote is goat. Its the same kind of affection I might feel for a crazy aunt. Is airline security really a such an important issue, compared to, say, poverty and IMF policies, or the Middle East, or, hell, even the community actions in Greensboro (sociological studies, working with the Laotian immigrants) that students are encouraged to take part in?

If he's pointing out the hypocrisy of the Bush administration pouring billions into Homeland Security and accomplishing nothing, well, duh, and his behavior will never change that. In that sense, a waste of his effort.

Still, hero, because he acted, and he acted non-violently, and he's taking the responsibility and the consequences on his own shoulders. He knows he'll do time for breaking the law, and he doesn't seem to be afraid, or feel that its unjust.

Thoreau and Martin Luther King, Jr. spent time in jail for their acts of civil disobedience (Not sure about Ghandi). Its part of the process. Hopefully he'll come out on the other side better, and still believing.

[DaveX]

I think the other thing we are forgetting about here (that was mentioned earlier in the thread) is that this isn't just about clay and boxcutters. He let the authorities (the TSA, if I heard the news story right) know what he was doing. And this has been happening since April...

I thought the shiny new homeland security department was supposed to be right on top of all communications and elimate the problems we had with intelligence before 9/11. Obviously, they can't even be bothered to look at a direct confession and pass it on, let alone sniff out someone who wishes to remain anonymous. All that money spent, the "mood ring" alert system, and the tough talk amount to nothing, really. The fundamental problem remains.

For that reason alone, I'm going hero.

[Kalhoun]

"This kid just said 'The Emperor has no clothes' in such a way as to embarass the administration. For that he'll get slapped a bit."

I think they'll slap him more than just a bit. Ashcroft is a dangerous zealot. The kid's a hero. He may not be as effective as some others have been in the past, but he's making them admit they don't have the answer to this problem (maybe because there isn't one???)

[Eve]

What I'd like to see someone address (in a safe way!) is the fact that the majority of checked luggage goes completely unscreened. That makes me more nervous than someone with a boxcutter!

[Monty]

While I personally think that the college man's (he's an adult, not a kid) act wasn't exactly the brightest thing to do, I do see that it's yet another bit of evidence that Ridge has managed to do one thing and one thing only in office: get paid.

[np_complete]

Originally posted by Kalhoun
(maybe because there isn't one???)
As a matter of fact, there isn't one and can't be one.

I think this kid did something that can/could/may prove valuable. You're decieving yourself if you think that there is a solution to all airport security problems or that there are no tradeoffs involved. Bruce Schneier (http://www.schneier.com) writes extensively about security, and he claims that there's no catch-all solution, just different countermeasures and different tradeoffs: we (as a nation) need to have a public debate about security, and before we can have that debate, people need to understand that there's no perfect security.

Many of the posters on the SDMB are aware that airport security isn't perfect, but that isn't enough people.

Until your mother-in-law, your little sister, your dentist, and your mechanic understand the essence of good security (understanding threats and tradeoffs), then this country cannot have an effective public debate about security measures.

Until most Americans understand that there is no absolute solution, the government will continue to be free to implement heavy-handed but ineffective security measures.

If this student's actions cause more people to think critically about security then he's done something valuable.

[DocCathode]

Goat.

He's proven nothing. Anybody with half a brain realized how pointless most of the new security procedures were.

He's accomplished nothing. If the government does actually change security porcedures, they'll simply add more time consuming yet thoroughly ineffective things instead of scrapping the current system and replacing it with one that will actually work.

[Cervaise]

Originally posted by DocCathode
He's proven nothing. Anybody with half a brain realized how pointless most of the new security procedures were.The rock this kid turned over is not about the actual security procedures. It's perfectly obvious that anyone who's determined and intelligent can get pretty much anything onto an airplane if they want to. Hell, I can arm myself with a much more dangerous weapon than a box cutter if I pull the retractable handle out of my rolling carry-on bag, sharpen the metal tips, and slide it back in. Piece of cake.

No, what this kid has exposed is the pointlessness of the bureaucracy. The raison d'etre of Homeland Security and the Transportation Security Administration was to roll all the law-enforcement and security functions up under big umbrellas, so you wouldn't have all these micro-managed mini-departments competing with each other and failing to communicate. As a stated goal, that's absolutely a worthwhile objective; without question the shortsightedness of the government's Little Caesars contributed to the successful planning and execution of 9/11, so we're spending a shitload of money on changing the status quo and making the system work better. What this kid did was not about the irrelevance of tighter security at the airport; what this kid did was to demonstrate that the new bureaucracy is no better at monitoring security, and perhaps worse, than the preceding arrangement.

Preventing another 9/11, or something even more horrifying, requires that the government get its act together and knock down all the silos into which it habitually divides itself. HS and the TSA were supposed to do that. So far, they haven't. That is valuable information.

[blowero]

Originally posted by Already in Use
But modeling clay? Are you really not allowed to bring that on a plane? I could see how it could look like plastique or something, but I just never thought about it before.
"His bags contained box cutters, modeling clay made to look like plastic explosives, matches and bleach hidden in sunscreen bottles"

I get the modeling clay, but what was the bleach about?

[rjung]

Originally posted by blowero
I get the modeling clay, but what was the bleach about?
Splash it in someone's face for a weapon?

Worse, what if it was gasoline? Put that and the matches together, and you'd have a bonfire at 40,000 feet...

[DocCathode]

Cervaise

I hadn't looked at it that way. Good point.

[Krokodil]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by musicguy
Just out of curiosity, do you fly much? Because I think a lot of people thought they were safer than they actually were.

Once or twice a year. If my flight--a flight Al Qaeda never targeted for fiery death--were delayed for several HOURS because some kid thought he'd dabble in unsolicited security consultation, I wouldn't even fly that often.

How grateful would you be if he'd put a flash-paper "bomb" under your car and a "CUT ME!" sign on your brake cable? Not a fair comparison, I know; Cars are sabotaged a lot more often than planes.

[Zenster]

Originally posted by Krokodil
Hackers and virus-spreaders believe they're performing a public service by illuminating security holes. I say they owe me the money I've spent getting my computers repaired over the years. This kid is just one more of the same. I don't value his contribution in the least. I think this best summarizes the situation. However much this clown deluded himself into thinking that he was some sort of hero, he comes across as just another hacker-type to me. Diversion of vital resources aside, what might have happened if some sort of loon had stumbled upon one of the boxcutters? There was needless risk imposed upon all of us by this kid's actions. It's time to pay the piper.

Una already said everything else I have to say.

[John Mace]

What actual law or laws has the BCK (Box Cutter Kid) broken?

Is it illegal to carry a box cutter onto a plane? If you accidentally leave your nail clippers in your carry-on and the screeners don't detect it, can you be prosecuted for this? It certainly can't be illegal to carry clay onto an airplane.

I don't agree with the BCK's methods, but he sure did his absolute best to notify the authorities so that the security breach could be confirmed and corrected.

I'm not sure what his punishment should be (assuming he broke a law), but the guys who left his e-mails in cold storage should be hung out to dry.

[Enderw24]

Originally posted by Eve
What I'd like to see someone address (in a safe way!) is the fact that the majority of checked luggage goes completely unscreened. That makes me more nervous than someone with a boxcutter!

"lawmakers recently killed a plan that would have required air cargo to be screened in much the same manner that passengers are."

So sayeth the KC Star's front page article today. So if we shipped Italian designer shoes, would they make us take each one out of the box beforehand? Would the male security officials only be allowed to pat down male blow-up dolls we ship?


Here's the best part of the article:
"The items were found in plastic bags in the rest rooms of the two airlines and contained notes about when and where the items were carried aboard. They were signed 3891925 which is the reverse of Heatwole's birthday: 5/29/1983.
"The e-mail provided provided precise details of where the plastic bags were hidden - down to the exact dates and flight numbers - and even provided Heatwole's name and telephone number."

And they didn't contact Scotland Yard to crack this case? I'm actually surprised it took them 31 days to put the pieces together on this Agatha Christie novel.

[Blonde]

Originally posted by John Mace
What actual law or laws has the BCK (Box Cutter Kid) broken?

Is it illegal to carry a box cutter onto a plane? If you accidentally leave your nail clippers in your carry-on and the screeners don't detect it, can you be prosecuted for this? It certainly can't be illegal to carry clay onto an airplane.

I don't agree with the BCK's methods, but he sure did his absolute best to notify the authorities so that the security breach could be confirmed and corrected.

I'm not sure what his punishment should be (assuming he broke a law), but the guys who left his e-mails in cold storage should be hung out to dry.

According to what I hear, he's facing a $10,000 fine. And he's damn lucky a jail sentence doesn't go along with that, IMHO. Talk about a dumb move - I guess the guy who derailed the Cubs chance at the World Series is quite thankful that someone else has earned "idiot of the week" stature.

[Duckster]

Originally posted by John Mace
What actual law or laws has the BCK (Box Cutter Kid) broken?

Is it illegal to carry a box cutter onto a plane? If you accidentally leave your nail clippers in your carry-on and the screeners don't detect it, can you be prosecuted for this? It certainly can't be illegal to carry clay onto an airplane.

I don't agree with the BCK's methods, but he sure did his absolute best to notify the authorities so that the security breach could be confirmed and corrected.

I'm not sure what his punishment should be (assuming he broke a law), but the guys who left his e-mails in cold storage should be hung out to dry.

The TSA has downloadable list of prohibited items (http://www.tsa.gov/public/interweb/assetlibrary/Permitted_Prohibited_10_16_2003v2.pdf) which cannot be carried aboard aircraft.

Specific laws and regulations, you ask? Ask the TSA.

[Broomstick]

Let's face, since 9/11/01 there has been some hysteria about airplanes and flying.

It's like everyone suddenly realized there are flying things overhead and reacted like bunnies spotting a hovering hawk.

Let's start with the basic principle you can never make anything 100% safe. Deal with it. We live in a hostile, dangerous universe.

But the government has adopted this attitude that by stripping the passengers (and crew) of any and every object that could, conceivably, be used as a weapon they will make aviation "safe" and ensure another 9/11 never, ever happens again. Of course, society does have a problem with strip-searches and body-cavity searches on the general populace - that's reserved solely for convicted felons and minorities.

But really, the TSA has responded not with anything fundamentally new, but rather by throwing money at the problem. And the political animals in our current government administration have a deep and fundamental distrust of their fellow human beings. Really, they do. They'll spend billions on computers, hardware, and systems - but God forbid they spring for a night at a Motel 6 for Federal Air Marshalls on layover between duty periods.

The problem with automated systems is that the hairless monkeys running around the planet in large numbers can figure out the system and learn to defeat it. Indeed, it is a delight of adolescent hairless monkeys to go around bollixing the automated systems of the world just for a lark. Some of the adults make a profession of it. Automated systems rely on their slice of the world being predictable, and humans are not predictable, particularly when they want to defeat such a system.

Learn the system, and you learn to get around it, or even use it against itself. There have been numerous threads since 9/11/01 discussing how the hijackers knew the aviation system in the US and used some of it against itself to buy time to do their dastardly deed.

But what did the TSA do? Invent systems. Train people to look for a list of items A, B, C, D - but apparently never encouraged them to use their imaginations and possibly locate E, F, and G. OK, now we look for A-G, but there will always be another item out there, an H, I, J.... Millions spent on machinery to scan luggage - even though we know those machines will not catch all conceivable threats. They only identify what they're programmed to identify, unlike a human who might be able to step outside their "programming" and realize there's something funny about that passenger's shoes in time to keep him from setting off the bomb in the soles.

Alright, I'm sure the Southwest jets were searched after each flight - but probably by checklist and only by checklist, and if that list didn't include "lavatory cabinent" it wasn't checked. I'm sure it's included now - but what isn't? Light fixtures? Inside seat cushions? (Sure - make a slit, stuff something inside -- do it right it might go unnoticed quite awhile...) Can you pry up some of the paneling on the plane's interior, insert something, maybe? What are you going to do, strip the entire airplane every time it lands? Do the words cost prohibitive mean anything?

It's enough to make you think someone is trying to delibrately destroy all air commerce. I mean someone in our government, not just the Bad Guys. The Bad Guys, I'm sure, are loving this. We're crippling a vital industry without them having to exert themselves.

What this kid did was no more and no less than expose the ugly truth that no, you can't protect the air travel system the way we have been - in other words, the Emporer has no clothes. The only reason we have not had jets raining out of the sky is the simple fact that most people, even most of the ones who hate America, Americans, and the whole sordid "Western Civilization", dissapprove of using civilian airliners as a poor man's cruise missle.

The fact that he freakin' e-mailed the TSA and nothing was done for months just exposes the whole fallacy of automated threat assessment. His e-mail didn't quite fit the "profile", so it sat on the shelf for months. I'm sure if he had signed his name "Mohammed" bells would have gone off, but he didn't. (Which is part of the stupidity of screening passengers by name - a real terrorist will be traveling under a name that raises no alarm. So your net will tend to catch only innocent "Mohammeds" or really, really stupid Bad Guys, leaving the smart ones free to roam). This guy couldn't get the TSA's attention by either ordinary OR extraordinary channels.

And now we have government prosecutors muttering about how "dangerous" his stunt was. Dangerous to the current administration because it exposes their great lie - that their "systems" will keep us safe - and they stand naked before the public. If a 20 year old man-boy with (presumably) no special covert training can pull this off, what might a real covert expert be able to do? In reality, Mr. Boxcutter's actions endangered the public no more than they are already endangered.

You know something? If someone tries to take over a plane full of people with a box cutter again the Federal Marshalls (if any) on board won't have a chance to shoot him - the passengers will kill him first. That doesn't mean the Bad Guys aren't planning something else. I'm not a particularly clever person when it comes to wrong-doing - I try to live an honest life - but I can think of a half-dozen ways to attack an airliner that might bring it down, and not all involve actually being on the airplane in question. What more can folks who devote their lives to this stuff come up with?

Despite the conservative/right-wing emphasis on personal responsibility they don't really believe it - they'd rather most of us be unarmed sheep protected by "experts". Truth is, though, I'm not convinced the "experts" and the folks in the beltway give a damn about the average citizen. And if the systems that keep us "secure" also imprison us - do they care?

And, there's the whole issue of the emphasis on passenger screening leaving whole areas unprotected due to lack of interest and funds - air cargo, shipping, railroads, semi-trucks hauling hazmat on the freeways....

Is this guy a hero or a goat? Good question. It takes guts to stand up, point, and say "The Emporer has no clothes!". But the current administration would rather make an "example" of him than really solve the problem. Better to beat the one who dared to speak than to through a garment over naked flesh. He is a small hero who will be treated as a large scapegoat.

[Typo Negative]

Originally posted by Krokodil
Hackers and virus-spreaders believe they're performing a public service by illuminating security holes. I say they owe me the money I've spent getting my computers repaired over the years. This kid is just one more of the same. I don't value his contribution in the least. I'm with you, brother. I think this kid is a moron. It's sucky enough trying to get through a security checkpoint. I think it may well suck more in the future as the TSA 'tightens up' security.

We won't be any safer. Just more pissed off when we are finally allowed to get to the damn plane after the full cavity search.

[The Great Unwashed]

I think the "increased" security measures were a knee-jerk response that has made flying a less pleasant experience. The knee-jerk response to this kid's actions will maker it less pleasant still. But I don't blame him, people should have come clean long ago -- we can do some, but not everything.

The major security failing of 9/11 (aside from intelligence failures) was to let the hijackers take control of the airplanes, even this was a relatively blameless failing -- this tactic had worked before, and was well-understood: give the hijackers what they want, get the plane on the ground, negotiate.

9/11 was a one-off thing, that could not be repeated with all the box-cutters in the world.

[robertliguori]

<applauds Broomstick>

[Wake up call]

The OP asks whether the kid is a hero or a goat.

Let's look at it from the perspective of putting a bandage on the symptoms versus curing the disease.

IMO, the kid would have been a hero if he came up with a scheme to show the American public what is wrong with the US Foreign Policy that causes so much anti-Americanism to cause 9/11 or similar hijackings, leading to requirement for grandiose airline security measures. This kid is a goat because he's been busy re-arranging the chairs on the deck while the Titanic is sinking.

As his father, if my son had addressed himself to the root causes of the problems leading to terrorism against us, I would have been proud of him.

As his father, with the relatively petty issue my son addressed himself, I think he merely diverted the public's attention to a soap opera, and for that, he should go to jail.

[Eve]

Originally posted by Wake up call
IMO, the kid would have been a hero if he came up with a scheme to show the American public what is wrong with the US Foreign Policy that causes so much anti-Americanism to cause 9/11 or similar hijackings, leading to requirement for grandiose airline security measures.

. . . Or, since the US is such an evil entity, the kid would have been much more of a hero if he actually had hijacked a plane and killed as many infidels as possible . . .

[Dinsdale]

I feel the current airport security measures are "a bad idea" simply because they are so unnecessary, ineffective, and expensive. Face it, 9/11 wouldn't have been nearly as big a deal if the planes had simply crashed without being commandeered into buildings. Which can be prevented by simply securing cockpit doors.

However, by installing cumbersome, expensive, obvious procedures, it appears as tho the government is doing something to protect air travelers. Good basic PR.

No reason to think airport security will be anymore successful than the vaunted War on Drugs. But it MUST be doing something. We've been spending so much money and manpower on it for so long, and putting so many people in jail... What do you say? There are some underlying societal issues that may be responsible for drug use patterns? Poppycock.

Too much of American governing is aimed at presenting certain appearances, rather than the dirty, less glamorous, and less predictable work of influencing root causes.

As far as protecting yourself, I am reminded about the guy who asked how likely it was that there would be a bomb on his airplane. He was told 1 in a million. When he asked what the chance was of there being 2 bombs on his plane, he was told those odds were so low as to approach impossibility. So he decided the best way to protect himself was to bring his own bomb whenever he traveled, because the odds would be prohibitive against someone else bringing a second bomb...

[Illinois_Boy]

People, people, people...

Definitely a goat, as his efforts are totally misdirected. Remember- boxcutters on planes aren't dangerous. Potential WMDs in Iraq - now that's the dangerous stuff!:dubious:

[rjung]

Originally posted by spooje
It's sucky enough trying to get through a security checkpoint. I think it may well suck more in the future as the TSA 'tightens up' security.

We won't be any safer. Just more pissed off when we are finally allowed to get to the damn plane after the full cavity search.
So you'd prefer to remain blissfully ignorant, believing that the TSA's current security levels are adequate protection when one kid has proven otherwise?

The kid's only crime is showing that the emperor has no clothes. Hero all the way.

[This Bike Is A Pipebomb]

I have to say, I worked at the airport in Phoenix for a little over a year after 9/11, and anyone who thinks that even most metal objects get picked up is somewhat naive. Working there we learned exactly how much change and keys and all sorts of stuff you can walk through without the metal detectors going off (Since we had to go through them every day on the way to work, usually running late). A pocketknife can be useful on the ramp, and there were several guys who carried one to work everyday without being caught.

Take out all of your change and keys and belt and everything else, and you can walk through with a radio and mike attachment without setting off the metal detector. If you wanted to take a toothpaste tube full of gas onto a plane, there are not even security measures in place to look for that.

This kid did little more than prove the obvious for me, but hopefully more people will see how wasteful firing all of the airport screeners and then hiring them all back the next day for a 5 dollar pay raise is. TSA is a joke, just like whatever agency was before them was a joke. Like someone said before, the machines and even the screeners more or less only look for whatever you tell them to look for. It reminds me of that part in Jurassic Park (the book) where once they stop limiting the computer to only look for a certain number of dinos, and instead count all of them, they realized how wrong they were.