Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?

[Polycarp]

Because the rest of us don't work for music companies like he does! :)

[Satan]

Okay, a subject I can sink my fangs into!

Contemporary Christian music has become big business now that point of sale counting by Soundscan has been included in Christian book stores and the like. It was always there, but like the mainstream failed to recognize country's impact on sales until Soundscan showed that Garth Brooks, et al were indeed superstars, so it went with CCM.

As for the diversity of said music, it makes sense that it would be so. And in fact, it's part of CCM's PROBLEM that this is the case.

To wit - Most CCM is derivitive of pop music in other genres, and often, like any photocopy, failing to distinguish itself as being a particularly GOOD representation of that genre.

Since music has become so fragmented, with underground genres leaping into the mainstream (like punk) and sub-genres reaching astronomical numbers (Industrial Metallic Electronica is now a sub-genre with devotees, believe it or not), it's not surprising to see CCM react to that as it reacted to pop music all along.

Case in point - Back in the day, you had a slew of mellow soft rock crooners, a few supposed divas (Amy Grant), and, er, Stryper - The token "metal" band. Well, there were quite a few lesser known Christian metal bands - Bloodgood, Vengeance Rising, The Brood - but you know what I mean.

So there are Christian punk bands (MXPX), Christian electronica, Christian swipes on the Korn aesthetic. There is no end.

And, like before, most all of them are not as good as the secular bands that inspired them.

There ARE a few bands that I think are not bad. I like Jars Of Clay, for example. And, showing my age, I still have To Hell With The Devil on vinyl! As well as a lot of relics on tape that I dubbed from my Christian girlfriend's brother back in High School.

SPIN did a nice article on the phenomenon a year or so back, if I recall correctly.

The funny thiing about the movement among the more aggressive youth is whether or not to slam and crowd surf. Some find it an abomination to be frowned upon, others a release that Jesus would do.

I guess if Jesus walked on water, why not a few heads in the Pit! :)

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Yer pal,
Satan

[tracer]

http://weeklywire.com/ww/11-10-97/knox_feat.html ... it's mainly about the "WWJD?" paraphernalia phenomenon, but it has a section in it about the growth of the Xian music industry in this decade, too.

On a lighter note, The Onion ( www.theonion.com (http://www.theonion.com) ) once had an article entitled "Area Christian Rock Group Denies Kicking Ass", but they didn't save the article in their archives.

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Quick-N-Dirty Aviation: Trading altitude for airspeed since 1992.

[Amazingrace]

All the music out there is up for interpretation. Any music, based on you interpretation of couse, can be spiritual. Whatever it means to you. It has nothing to do with the genre. I can find more meaning in some punk than in CCM. CCM is not a genre, it's a lyrical catagory.

[Revtim]

Whenever I detect that music is trying to preach to me on any subject, I instantly cannot stand it.

I'm not 100 percent sure why. Probably because I'm not looking for lifestyle advice from music, only pleasant and/or stimulating sound.

[Sam Stone]

If the music doesn't come first, it probably isn't going to be very good.

There is some great, phenomenal religious music out there. Gospel, gospel blues, etc. Listen to Elvis singing "How Great Thou Art." Or some of the religious music played by people like B.B. King, John Lee Hooker, etc. R&B has strong roots in gospel and 19th century spiritual music.

But Contemporary Christian music as a category is pretty lame. The way I see it, if the songs are that great they'll cross over into the mainstream and I won't have to dig them out of Christian Bookstores.

[Pickman's Model]

As soon as I saw the thread title, I could hear Larry Norman (the great-granddaddy of all Christian rockers) yelling it in my memory. Thanks, Mike......now I'll be listening to that for the rest of the night. Larry had all sorts of snazzy little takes like that: "He's the Rock that doesn't roll"; "Jesus is the Rock and He rolled my blues away", "My feet are on the Rock and my name is on the roll", and so on. The song in question dates from about 1971, and part of the lyrics are hilarious:

"They said to cut my hair, they're driving me insane;
I grew it out long to make room for my brain.
But sometimes people don't understand----
What's a good boy doing in a rock and roll band?
Jesus told the truth, and Jesus showed the way,
There's one more thing I'd like to say;
They nailed Him to the cross, and they laid Him in the ground,
But they should've known you can't keep a good man down.
There's nothing wrong with playing blues licks!
Well, if you got a reason, tell me to my face: Why should the devil have all the good music?
I've been filled, I feel okay,
Because Jesus is the Rock and He rolled my blues away."

Ah, memories!

I haven't been heavily into the CCM scene for about 15 years now, but at one time, I really kept up with the charts and had quite a collection. I recall my faves were Petra, Don Francisco, Keith Green (a raving anti-Catholic----forgive him, Father, he knew not what he did), Silverwind, Rick Cua, Dallas Holm, and White Heart. I also liked some of the stuff by Servant, Rez Band, DeGarmo and Key, and some others.

I think that Satan has a point concerning the Christian copying of secular bands styles; however, so what? That's been going on for approximately seven hundred years or longer. Case in point: a very nice "traditional" hymn that goes,

"We praise Thee, O God,
Our Redeemer, Creator;
In grateful devotion
Our tribute we bring...."

Which was actually Christianized lyrics to a bar-song popular in English pubs at the time:

"I once met a girl
And her name was Matilda;
She hugged like a bear
And she looked like one, too....."

I think another reason that a lot of these Christian bands never go anywhere is due to the fact that many of them feel that their job is a ministry, rather than a way to make wads of money; the message is more important than the success. Plus, this also accounts for the number of personnel changes in some of these bands; one or another of them is always being "called" to some other area of service, and the band disintegrates.

Ah, well. I don't listen to much CCM any more these days---I don't even know who most of them are. But if I had my way, I'd love to own every album Larry Norman ever put out; he started out as a backup player for the Rolling Stones, and Mick Jagger's influence is in a lot of Larry's tunes. Plus, the asides he put into his records were a riot; speaking of Jesus Christ Superstar in a tune called "Reader's Digest", he said, "Dear John; who's more popular now? I've been listening to Paul's records----I think he really is dead!" (In reference, of course, to John Lennon's comment about the Beatles being more popular than Jesus, and the "Paul is dead"marketing ploy they used somewhat later. Absolutely hlarious. Unfortunately, his records are practically impossible to find any more, and if you do find them, they cost an arm and a leg. Ah, well.

[Manda JO]

Christian contemporay music has always bothered me because it seems to me that the best music ever produced in America and possibly the world--gospel-- is explicitly Christian, but much of the Christian community has rejected it in favor of what Satan so aptly termed poor "photocopies" of what seems to me to be already insipid pop music. I guess the idea was always to try and appeal to the young folks, but it still seems to me that if Mahalia Jackson can't convince you of the power and glory of God, what chance does Amy Grant have?

[DoctorJ]

The true test:
http://www.brunching.com/toys/toy-metalortrek.html

Dr. J

[mikehardware]

Contemporary Christian Music covers a huge range of styles, including soul, pop, rock, rap, ska, techno, you name it. The only real difference I can find is the lyrical content. I've quoted some song lyrics in the church I attend, but if I played the song itself, some of the members would probably go ballistic. Some Christian artists have "crossed over" to the secular markets with excellent success, like Amy Grant, dc Talk, or Jars of Clay. Yet the artists are sometimes denounced by church folks, even if they are sincerely trying to tell their audience about Jesus.

What do the Teeming Millions make of this? Is this something new to you? Do you listen to CCM, and find it helps you along your journey with God? Do you avoid it as being too secular?

My opinion is that I find it helpful and enjoyable. Some of the best concerts I've ever attended have been Christian concerts. I've also seen Frank Zappa, ZZ Top, Bruce Springsteen, and others, so I do have a good basis for comparison.

For folks who would be interested in finding out more, I'll include some helpful sites.
calvarychapel.com/crossroads-vancouver/chrmuschrt.html has a format along the lines of "if you like these secular artists, you might enjoy these CCM artists", and provides links to many of them.
www.ccmcom.com (http://www.ccmcom.com) is CCM magazine, for reviews, tour information, etc.
www.wayfm.com (http://www.wayfm.com) is a radio station site, and I believe they also webcast.

Brian has all the good music? Hopefully,he'll sell some to collectors! I listen to Christian music,contemp or ancient. If its got a good beat,I'll give it a 98.

[metroshane]

All the good rock and roll acts are affilitated with satan, everyone knows that--Bart Simpson


Really tho, I really like creed. their lyrics are spiritual, but they contest they are not a religeous band.

Your church doesn't have to approve of your taste. As long as you get a positive message from what you're listening to, it shouldn't matter.

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Mmm hehe um yah jack am coke, yah yah, vodka- Keith Richards

[tracer]

mikehardware wrote:

Some Christian artists have "crossed over" to the secular markets with excellent success, like Amy Grant, dc Talk, or Jars of Clay.

dc Talk does secular music now, too? Bleah. They were bad enough when they stuck to the Jesus stuff.


I listen to CC music quite a bit (thanks to that now-ubiquitous "K-love" radio network), but I'm not Christian. I just think that the CCM that's worth listening to happens to be prettier than secular pop music. Unfortunately, I also feel that the CCM of 8-10 years ago was prettier than the MTV-like dreck most CCM artists play now.

Contemporary Christian music also gives you the opportunity to say things like "Twila Paris could kick Sandy Patty's butt any day of the week." ;)

[Eureka]

I'm a Christian who tends to listen to a fair amount of CCM. I'm not fond of some of the blander music or lyrics, preferring some that show more creativity on the part of the performer or composer or lyricist (or more than one of the above). On the other hand, my taste in music runs more towards pop music than it does towards rock or alternative or various other varities. I've known people who chose what to listen to by whether it was "Xian" or not. I think that is really stupid because there are some secular albums with great Xian messages ("Les Mis" comes to mind) and there are some "Xian" groups that aren't very "Xian". (Some of this is because CCM has become big business and there are labels which only require that one or more band members be Xian, which may not mean they have lyrics that appeal to my Xian friends). I tend not to listen to the radio a lot because I think the lyrics on a popular music station would offend me. But, I would have to admit that I listen to so little contemporary popular music that this perception might be wrong. (I have been known to listen more to Oldies stations). Some of the CCM that my brother likes I can't see why it matters whether its "Xian" or not, because one can not understand any of the lyrics anyway. I like songs I can sing along to.

[Polycarp]

Strangely enough, I don't listen to much overtly Christian music. I enjoy the occasional religious classical piece, and when something with religious overtones makes it into normal airplay, I usually find it enjoyable.

But my experience both in rural New York and in North Carolina is that, barring concerts, clubs, and such, which we almost never attend, most Christian music (contemporary or not) is played on radio stations that allege themselves Christian. This would be OK if it were so. But their aired attitude generally resembles the quote in Satan's OP on the thread that he and Jodih had that "discussion" about his alleged views on. I.e., you must be a Biblical literalist, Catholics worship bread and the Virgin Mary not God, Mormons aren't Christian, Fred Phelps is too kind to homosexuals, and other "Christian" sentiments -- the kind that give the term a foul name.

[Satan]

Let me be clear about something - Name any Christian Contemporary artist, and I can name an artist in the same genre (or even sub-genre) that was a) first and b) better.

------------------
Yer pal,
Satan

[sixseatport]

I have to go with Satan on this one (wow, never thought I'd say that out loud...)

The last great, original xian musician was J.S. Bach, IMHO.

[KeithB]

One problem with CCM is that the lyrical "space" is so small. Pretty soon all the songs sound pretty much alike. (I think straight pop has the same problem.)

And then there are the abominations I have heard called "Jesus is my girlfriend" songs. The only way to tell that these songs are Christian is that "Jesus" or "Lord" are thrown in at the chorus.

Of course there are some great novelty songs. Currently on the (only!) local CCM station in LA, there is a song that posits what different cartoon characters would sound like as Christians. It is a clever idea, but I think it wasn't carried out as well as it could.

As for naming artists in CCM: Tonio K and Steve Taylor have few peers in satiricism and sarcasm. 8^) Of course, it helps that modern christianity has so much to be satirical about!

[Peter North]

I think most of the better bands are on the fringes of CCM, where there is some not-so overt Christian lyrical content. One such band is Dream Theater, not every song is about Jesus, but a few songs definitely have Christian overtones. Other bands: Creed(mentioned already), Saviour Machine, Galactic Cowboys, Impelliteri, Tourniquet, Veni Domine, etc.

[pldennison]

Phil Keaggy is also a fine musician in any genre, having started with the Youngstown, OH jazz-fusion group Glass Harp (who recently had a reunion), then moved on to CCM. He puts out classical guitar albums as well as vocal pop-rock albums, worships the Beatles right after Jesus, and released one fine pop album, "Phil Keaggy and Sunday's Child." A superlative performer.

You will all find me frighteningly knowledgeable about CCM.

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"Argue with what I said, not what you think or hope I said." - Me

[Satan]

Yes, Phil, but do you have any Stryper on vinyl? Hmmmm?

:P

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Yer pal,
Satan

[Sake Samurai]

What about the plight of the Satanist? Satanists are having the damnedest time trying to fit into mainstream american musical awareness. People continue to view the movement as absurd and full of hate. It's not the case. I cite the following lyrics from a super-duper song on a super-duper album:
KILL THE CHRISTIAN
You are the one we despise
Day in day out your words compromise lives
I will love watching you die
Soon it will be and by your own demise

Buried in hypocrisy
Lacerate your faith in god
Morally diseased
On the cross of Calvary your body bashed, defeated, stabbed

Blessing as you hate
Loyal to your enemies
Monetary faith
As him you'll pay for the lies of your prophecy
Satan wants you dead

Kill the christian, kill the christian
Kill the christian, kill the christian
Kill the christian, kill the christian
Kill the christian

Armies of darkness unite
Destroy their temples and churches with fire
Where in his world will you hide
Sentenced to death, the anointment of christ

In due time your path leads to me
Put you out of your misery

The death of prediction
Kill the christian

Kill the christian...dead!



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Hell is Other People.

[Sake Samurai]

I think a large part of the reason CCM is so far below musical par is the basic inspiration of creativity. Those who are deeply driven have a great deal of emotional power to harness. There are very few driven chistians today. Perhaps this will change, but right now is a very uninspired era in the timeline of Christianity. The Church is becoming the bastion of the boring, the meek, and the desperate. Not very inspirational qualities to draw on.

I think some of that good ol' fashioned christian persecution is in order. Stir things up and give the cream a chance to rise. I've done the math - for every 30,000 Christians oppressed, we should get one trulyInspirational song!

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Hell is Other People.

[Pickman's Model]

And this week's Multicultural Diversity and Tolerance Award goes to the composer of the song above!

Yeah, I'd say that's pretty accurate concerning the feelings towards Christians these days.............

[pldennison]

And this week's Multicultural Diversity and Tolerance Award goes to the composer of the song above!
Yeah, I'd say that's pretty accurate concerning the feelings towards Christians these days.............

Your persecution complex over how hard it is to be a Christian in America is really getting tiresome.

Of course, it's perfectly OK when Christian pop culture depicts atheists as miserable, antisocial, sociopathic, immoral misfits, right? Right?




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"Argue with what I said, not what you think or hope I said." - Me

[PunditLisa]

I don't know about groups per se, but I do think some liturgical songs are absolutely beautiful. For instance, "Amazing Grace" and "On Eagle's Wings." One of my favorite *recorded* songs is Mannheim Steamroller's version of the Christmas tune "O Come, O Come Emmanuel." The song was originally a Gregorian chant, and they incorporated that into the song. It's done in latin. It's an incredible piece, IMHO.

[mikehardware]

Thanks for all the responses! It's amazed me that Satan listened to Christian music! (Can you imagine the endorsements?) And thanks to Pickman's Model for recognizing the Larry Norman reference!

FWIW, I agree that too much is second-rate, derivative stuff. Of course that also applies to any artistic expression. Seems like there's very few unique talents, and lots of wannabees. I'm glad there's some of those rare talents in CCM too. There's still an audience for the wannabees as well, whether it's CCM, pop, rock, or whatever.

I found a good example of CCM bashing at: www.av1611.org/crock.html (http://www.av1611.org/crock.html)

It's pretty obvious that the author never bothered to get past the title on Steve Taylor's "Jesus is for Losers". The lyrics are at: www.ac.biola.edu/~don/steve_taylor/squint_lyrics.html#thelament (http://www.ac.biola.edu/~don/steve_taylor/squint_lyrics.html#thelament)
so you can judge things for yourself.

One of the things I do like about CCM is the low cost of the concerts. Since they are a ministy, I've been to many where there wasn't a charge, they just took up a collection. (Not just some el cheapo concerts either, talking packed out arena, full light show, type concerts too).

[Satan]

mikehardware:

I listen to MUSIC. Period.

I can appreciate good lyrics, but a lot of the cheesy metal I grew up on was exactly that - cheesy! But man, those riffs and drums...

I also listen to bands like Morbid Angel, Slayer and Marilyn Manson, if we're gonna talk about some evil lyrics...

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Yer pal,
Satan

[tracer]

Satan wrote:

Let me be clear about something - Name any Christian Contemporary artist, and I can name an artist in the same genre (or even sub-genre) that was a) first and b) better.

Um ... TWILA PARIS!!

(I'm still trying to find a recording of Twila Paris and Friends' "Carry The Light" after all these years.)

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Quick-N-Dirty Aviation: Trading altitude for airspeed since 1992.

[Peter North]

If you want evil, listen to Cannibal Corpse.

[Polycarp]

Brian, not to even come close to flaming, but you did say a long time ago that you picked that user name partly for the humor value, and Mike did pick up quite well on that. "Just imagine the endorsements!" I did find that worth a chuckle. :)

Now, imagine if the user who posts as GOD were to say he(?) likes Marilyn Manson! :)

[astorian]

I am a fairly devout Catholic and have listened to every genre of pop/rock music for the last 25 years. I think this qualifies me to offer the opinion that 99.9% of "contemporary Christian" music is just plain awful.

Now, in fairness, 90% of the artists in EVERY musical genre are pretty awful. Most SECULAR heavy metal is pretty lame, most SECULAR rappers stink to high heaven. most SECULAR country music is boring. SO, I'm not just picking on the Christians. Still, there is no other genre in which so much of the music is utterly without ANY merit whatever.

I don't object to the idea of "Christian" music at all. I love Mozart's Requiem, Haydn's "Creation," Bach's "Matthauspassion," etc. And when talented rock musicians who are NOT pigeonholed a "contemporary Christian" turn their attention toward religion, they often make wonderful music (I think of U2, Bruce Springsteen, Run DMC, Steve Earle, Kansas, et al.).

But most "Contemporary Christian" music I've heard is mighty weak. Typically, they sound like Journey or Bryan Adams love ballads, with the name "Jesus" inserted instead of a girl's name. The occasional Christian bands that play rap or heavy metal bring to mind a line I used to hear a lot from Joel Hodgson on "MST 3K"). Stryper always made me think, "You know, this is just like Aerosmith, only not good." DC Talk always makes me think, "They're a lot like House of Pain, except that they're not very good."

In music, as in most areas of life, good intentions don't count for much. And VERY few contemporary Christian artists show much real musical talent, and even fewer show any REAL thought, reflection or introspection.

[Sam Stone]

Robbie Robertson did an album that was shot through with religious overtones, albeit a lot of it Native American, but it's a great example of how you can make good music with spiritual themes.

Listen to songs like "Sweet Fire of Love", and "Testify". I've never heard CCM even approach this level of quality.

[Doobieous]

Personally, I can't stand to listen to much of the contemporary christian artists. It all sounds about the same, and the lyrics aren't very original. However, I do like some of the older gospel songs (Mahalia Jackson comes to mind). I also like many of the songs we hear in church (like "On Eagles Wings" which is played frequently in my church).

[SoxFan59]

You will all find me frighteningly knowledgeable about CCM.>>> Phil

I would bet this is just as much a product of your radio connections as it is your former "faith" days, eh?

I used to be in Christian radio, in the early 80s. CCM as a genre was not as well defined, and was just beginning to get mainstream recognition as a legitimate category. Many of the main record companies had just formed Christian music subsidiaries, and some "big time" secular pop artists (most notably Bob Dylan) had declared themselves Christians. Unfortunately, the station where I was a DJ was an "adult contemporary" Christian format. Sort of the "lite-rock, less talk" version of Christian radio. It tended toward the kind of blandness many of you complain of.

But probably the greatest change in the CCM realm is that its made what had been stylistically verboten acceptable.

The little Christian radio station where I worked stuck with its middle of the road format for years. Our "Anchor" sponser was the First Baptist Church in Hammond, Indiana, and we dared not offend the sensibilities of the pastor there, who did a live talk show every morning. He often preached on the evils of "worldly" music, which included much of what was then cutting edge CCM.

Our program director was an upstart young fellow who wanted to bring this "new" music to the masses. He started a program on Saturday nights called "Silver Lining," which featured what were then the cutting edge of CCM, artists like Rez Band, Petra, etc. I helped man the phones the first couple weeks. The backlash was horrible. The program did not last long.

Seems ironic, only 20 years later. Kind of like the fuss made over Elvis on the Ed Sullivan show.

As for modern CCM, I tend to agree that its pretty bland (particularly the pop stuff). But I've found that the production values are pretty high compared to other genres, but this may be borne of the Nashville based studios that crank out most CCM, who lend similar production values to the better C&W acts.

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SoxFan59
"Its fiction, but all the facts are true!"

[dkgreath]

I don't listen to music because of its relious message I listen to music because to me it sounds damn good. I listen to Creed because I like the music and it inspires me, but by the same token I can go straight from Creed to C.O.C., or Megadeth, or just Bush. I mean if it sounds good to me I'll listen regardless of what anyone thinks, wheather it is talking about religion or beating someone's ass.

[tracer]

dkgreath just wrote:

wheather it is talking about religion or beating someone's ass.

Don't tell me Satan and Heather are putting their activities to music now! ;)

[Phaedrus]

pldennison: Well well well, I was wondering if anybody was going to bring up Phil. Nobody could ever outplay him in his genre! One awesome musician!!!! BTW, phil, I have known Keaggy for 22 years and have a recording that I made with him at his house, add that to the lawyer/scientist bit! ;) I also have super 8mm films of Phil and I together. The last time I spoke to him was two years ago and I am waiting for his new album. I am somewhat of a collector of his stuff. Did you know he sold his vintage Les Paul?

Also I used to live at 2019 Eglindale right off of Scranton by the hospital. That was years and years ago. Sorry to hear about your guitar and amp, wow, I would have cried. I own a strat, Les Paul, classical guitar, fender acoustic and a custom made Lanjegens just like Phil's. If dennison refers to your street, I know exactly where that is.

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That which a man had rather were true he more readily believes.

[Phaedrus]

To the rest: Listen to Phil Keaggy and tell me if you can find a better guitarist! Eric Clapton said in 1971 when asked by Dick Cavett who was going to be the up and coming world renowned guitarist and Eric said something like I'm not sure but there is this guitarist in Youngstown Ohio that is really hot! Who was he referring to? Phil Keaggy!

Come on gang! show your stuff, who is better than Phil?

[Satan]

Since I think that Clapton was an overrated blowhard, I don't think his opinions of other musicians would sway me much. But if I see an album of his around, I will pick it up. I'm nothing if not a completist...

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Yer pal,
Satan

[Satan]

I dig the rock... Oh, and if thery are instrumental albums, why bother with a distinction?

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Yer pal,
Satan

[Phaedrus]

Satan: He has about 30 albums. Name a genre and I'll give you my opinion which one is better than examples in the secular world.

[Ukulele Ike]

There was also that Hank Jones and Charlie Haden album that came out a few years ago...piano/bass improvisatory duets based on spirituals and hymns.

Got a LOT of media attention for a jazz disc.

------------------
Uke

[tracer]

Instrumental Christian musicians sprinkle their electric guitars with holy water before every piece, that's why.

Though this does lead to the occasional electrical short.

[Sam Stone]

So... If the Allman Brothers had re-named "Jessica" as "Jesus my Saviour", it would be Christian music?

What is it that defines instrumental music as being 'Christian'? Is it just the spiritual pedigree of the artist?

[PunditLisa]

Well, first the instruments have to accept the Lord as their personal saviour....

[Satan]

They charge more for those instruments, PunditLisa In a pawn shop recently, some Born-Again Bongos were going for 33% more than the Secular Snare Drum!

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Yer pal,
Satan

[Phaedrus]

Satan. I guess the distinction would be the same between, say, Bach and hmmm Satie? A lot of difference. Phil's music has won a few awards anbd he has been featured in Guitar magazine several times. His album, The Master and the Musician has extensive liner notes that turn the entire album into a spiritual message. It is an awesome album when juxtaposed against the music of its era. A couple of years ago he played in Nashville for a house of guitarists and nearly brought the house down, many of the older names were there like Stephen Stills etc. Stills may not have been one of the people there but it was people like him. If you want I can post a short portion of the review. Keaggy rules!

Later...