toilet plumes

As I get the Reader, the column on Charles Gerba and aerosols getting everything in your bathroom dirty leaves out one thing. He was probably doing his test with powerful siphon jet flushometers (you know, Sloan Royal's) in commercial bathrooms. I doubt if this is true of ordinary washdown toilets in homes.
I realize that many people online don't have access to this column yet as it is in the April 16 Chicago Reader

No, in his article (Applied Microbiology, Aug. 1975, p.229-237), he says "standard household tank or valve toilets were used." BTW, Prof. Gerba has since sent me a "time lapse photograph of a toilet flush at bowl level," and his description of it as looking like a rocket attack over Baghdad at night is as advertised.


[Note: This message has been edited by Cecil Adams

[[Master -- I'm on your staff, so I'm obedient and subservient and all that, but I gotta say, this column grossed me out entirely. Not only can I never walk into a bathroom again without becoming nauseated, I can never even use a kitchen sink. So what's the answer? Dig a hole in the backyard? (Been there, done that.)]]

Easy CK. Don't flush the toilet.
Jill

Master -- I'm on your staff, so I'm obedient and subservient and all that, but I gotta say, this column grossed me out entirely. Not only can I never walk into a bathroom again without becoming nauseated, I can never even use a kitchen sink. So what's the answer? Dig a hole in the backyard? (Been there, done that.)

As tempting as it is to disinfect like crazy when you hear stories like that of the toilet aerosol or the fecal-contaminated dishcloth and laundry room, it may be less dangerous to live with it. When a relative -- a lifetime nonsmoker --was diagnosed with lung cancer last year, she was asked, "Do you use chlorine bleach to clean the house?" The question, incidentally, came from one of the country's top cancer specialists.

Could you respond to this? Is chlorine bleach a deadly enough carcinogen that
we shouldn't even be using it at all?

To the first-

"Not only can I never walk into a bathroom again without becoming nauseated, I can never even use a kitchen sink. So what's the answer? Dig a hole in the backyard?"

Uhh....close the lid, BEFORE you flush.

To the second-

"Is chlorine bleach a deadly enough carcinogen that we shouldn't even be using it at all?"

Chlorine bleach, Chlorox; or, as we like to call it in the chemical world, Sodium Hypochlorite is great stuff. Nothing better to kill the nasty microscopic beasties in your bathroom. NaOCl is a strong oxidizer. Many people believe that there is a link between anti-oxidants and cancer prevention or even longevity (thanks Mr. Pauling). There is a definate link between the production of oxidizers (peroxides and the like) within a cell and chromosomal damage leading to cell death or perhaps mutation (a.k.a. cancer). So, perhaps. this researcher has a belief that breathing a strong oxidant like chlorox can lead to lung cancer.

Life's a crap shoot, roll the dice.

Just wait a minute here:

<In 1975 Professor Gerba published a scientific article describing the little-known phenomenon of bacterial and viral aerosols due to toilet flushing. The more you learn about it, the scarier it sounds. According to Gerba, close-up photos of the germy ejecta look like "Baghdad at night during a U.S. air attack." >

U.S. air attack on Baghdad... In 1975?

Hey Cece, I know you said you got a new photo, but to me, the above sentence is a logical sommersault.

Oh, and BTW, in my country, Sweden, where cleanliness is higher than most other European countries (the French are DIRTY), the percentage of grade-school kids is also the highest. Fact is, many researchers here say we're too cleanly.

CT

I don't know enough about the carcinogenic qualities of bleach to comment on that score, but I do know that if your sewage is handled by a septic system, you should NOT under any circumstances use bleach. Some bacteria are your friends, especially the ones in your septic tank. If you kill them, your septic system will not work and you could end up with a septic problem, which could cause far more health problems for you and your family than the mildly malignant germs in your kitchen.

Doctors and scientists may scoff at this, but I firmly believe that you must keep your body exposed to moderate amounts of bacteria and viruses so your immune system gets used to them and can handle infections. I don't live in a sty, but nor do I frenetically disinfect my kitchen and bathroom every day, and over the past year, I've been sick exactly once. Granted, I'm young and healthy to begin with, but still...

I think this Dope article copped out on the subject matter, although it really got Slug going at what he's best at. Although it threw in everything, including the kitchen sink, it sold out to only *one* experimenter. What ever happened to Cecil's inhouse primary-research initiative (and biological-warfare lab) -- or did he swear off bathrooms after reading of Dr. Gerba's results?

I don't know about those who hang out about the Dope operation, but *I* don't keep my toothbrush at "[toilet] bowl level". I refuse to believe much of microbial nature goes on *above* that level from simply *flushing* a toilet; but toilets, of even the normal household type, do vary.

It seems to me what you should've brought up (well, that could've been worded a little differently) is the aerosol, nay droplet, situation in the case of urination by standing males. This problem may vary in intensity as should exist the cleanliness of the receptacle in respect to fecal matter, but certainly one can often note droplets getting significantly above bowl level from this male prerogative, making it likely that aerosols would actually reach toothbrush-storage level. I haven't read, however, of any society's having consistently retrained its males away from this gender-authenticating posture of urination.

One might also note the much more serious level of the instant concern, found in the refugee camps of Albania, etc. One locally well-known, very practical engineer's solution is buckets:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/04/19/MN28866.DTL

I suppose African dung beetles wouldn't work.

Ray

When it comes to all this histeria about germs, I like George Carlin's attitude. He said that we should not be afaid of germs. That by avoiding germs we are failing to give our immune systems the practice they need to fight off germs. You can spend your whole life paranoid about germs but, you will still get sick and die one day.

-----------------

OK, "Fecal coliform," "food poisoning" -- it all sounds pretty nasty, but is it that important? I'm guessing that the skin is also a pretty good breeding ground for bacteria, and just because it sounds nasty doesn't mean it's worth worrying about. What I would really like to know is does this toilet aerosol cause colds and flu?

While I'm at it, another complaint: "Fifty to 80 percent of all food-borne illnesses originate in the home." OK, but what percentage of food is eaten in the home? This statistic sounds too much like saying x% of car accidents happen within five miles of home, it's not very informative.

Charles Gerba doesn't do the laundry around his own house, does he? If he did, he'd know that you can't use chlorine bleach on most fabrics, nor can you use it on printed fabric or dark colours. It's really only limited to white and light cotton, linen and similar fabrics such as ramie. Even those fabrics will be damaged by constant use of chlorine bleach, which is ferociously corrosive, even on fabrics it doesn't damage or destroy.</P>

Do you know where the second highest concentration of urine is in a restaurant?

The mint dish next to the cash register.

(I know this is true because I read it somewhere.)

did you know that the original formula for the popular diet drink Tab included urine and restaraunt mints.

i know that its true because i read it somewhere.

see, it says it right there. thats were i read it.
-pat

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70 61 74 20 74 68 65 20 67 72 65 61 74

Like jcp, I'm having trouble with the statistics given in the article. Those "6.5 million cases of gastroenteritis and 9,000 deaths" caused by food-borne pathogens -- do they occur in the U.S. or in the world? If the latter, could they perhaps be concentrated in less developed countries where people don't even have water toilets?

Also, I think the point on the usefulness of moderate exposure to bacteria and viruses to "train" your immune system (stated by Eris) is worthy of being addressed by the master himself. I think there's a theory that allergies can be caused by lack of such exposure; if your immune system gets bored, it starts fighting imaginary enemies, so to speak.

Finally, the whole matter should probably be viewed in relation to other daily hazards: How many people get ill, injured, or killed in road traffic, through stress, due to smoking or by falling out of bed at night? Maybe those household infections don't rank that far up on the scale of things we should worry about.

Holger

Concerning Holger's comment about the statistics, I believe that such small numbers must be for the US only. But what isn't said is that they concern not only toilet plumes, but *all* sources of food-borne pathogens, like those found in the red meat and chicken bought off-the-shelf.

What is very intriguing, coming from a country (Canada) where public health messages are broadcast avery summer to remind people to thoroughly cook their hamburgers, lest they get the "hamburger disease", is to see the French eat the steak tartare (that's raw hamburger meat for you). They even often add a raw egg to it. Haven't they heard of salmonella? Are the differences in food-processing regulations between North-America and Europe so important?

Morse

Pricciar said:

"did you know that the original formula for the popular diet drink Tab included urine and restaraunt mints. i know that its true because i read it somewhere. see, it says it right there. thats were i read it."
-pat

You know, that's not what I had in mind when I said "put it on my tab"...

And you and andrew should know that the fastest way to draw the withering contempt of Cecil Adams is to assert something is true because you read it "somewhere."

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Live a Lush Life
Da Chef

I'm a big fan of your column, but I have to say I was a little disappointed
in the recommendation to use so many chlorine products in your column on
toilet plumes. Chlorine is an extremely toxic chemical, and is listed in
the 1990 Clean Air Act as a hazardous air pollutant. It's also on the EPA's
Community Right-to-Know list, and in 1993, the American Public Health
Association issued a resolution calling for the gradual phase-out of most
organochlorine compounds.

Chlorine bleach contains sodium hypochlorite, a chemical precursor to
chlorine. Any use of it will create pure chlorine in the environment.

In addition to its direct toxic effects on living organisms, chlorine also
reacts with organic materials in the environment to create other hazardous
and carcinogenic toxins, including trihalomethanes and chloroform (THMs),
and organochlorines, an extremely dangerous class of compounds that cause
reproductive, endocrine and immune system disorders. Chlorine and
chlorinated compounds are also a prime cause of atmospheric ozone loss.

When you flush your toilet or put something down the drain in Chicago, the
water that you used goes to the sewage treatment plant, and then into the
Chicago River system. While our sewage treatment system gets the water
pretty clean, a lot of organochlorine compounds remain in it. Eventually,
this water ends up in the Mississippi, and becomes the drinking water for
New Orleans and other cities. It's interesting that a large percentage of
people (sorry, I don't have the exact number) in New Orleans - regardless of
income level - drink bottled water.

I'll admit a bit of a bias here - I definitely like to err on the side of
safety when it comes to household chemicals. How about a column with the
straight dope on chlorine?

-Cathy

Speaking for us (we?) New Orleanians, many of us do indeed drink bottled water. And after reading about the bacteria and other contaminents lurking in the spring water sources of many of the bottlers, I insist on using distilled. I even cook with it.

But just because I don't drink the water from our national sewer system, (i.e., the Mississippi River) doesn't mean I'm not getting a healthy dose those tasty carcinogens every day. What about when I shower? Anyone know the cumulative effects of bathing with this stuff?

(Since we're still talking about the nasty stuff in water, I assume we're not going too far off-topic here.)

Derek in New Orleans

About the underwear/laundry problem: when I was in the USAF, we were told that under primitive conditions (i.e. no opportunity to wash clothes, etc.) that sunlight was a very effective disinfectant. So if nothing else, at least shake out your BVD's and hang them somewhere in the sun for a while. Works as effectively as chlorine bleach, plus it saves energy (and money) by not using the clothes dryer. My wife would much rather hang bed sheets and whatnot out to dry in the fresh air and sunshine because that makes them smell better than any clothes dryer sheet. Just another instance of convenience and labor saving devices not being as good for you as what nature provides.

Dear Cecil, I've been reading your column in the Chicago Reader for years, but your recent column on household cleanliness (or lack there of) has been the first to turn my world upside down. It's bad enough that the slop hole of an apartment kept by the two single men who live below me Ñ- in which I can not even bring myself to step foot Ñ- is actually cleaner than my humble hovel. What really disturbs me (and I don't question your facts) is that you've put me in a horrible quandary. I now want to go on a cleaning frenzy Ñ- Out, damn spot, Out! Ñ- but I'm horrified to learn that our Clean King, Professor Gerba, sees bleach as the only answer, when its manufacture is a horrible environmental hazard. Are there any other less environmentally hazardous alternatives? How long do these fellows really live anyway? In the washing machine? According to my dentist, I've got a low bad guy count in my mouth using baking soda and hydrogen peroxide. Also, isn't there a difference between chlorine and nonchlorine bleach? Could that be the answer?Michele Marie WhiteChicago, IL

Ok, I just have to say that the idea of microwaving your underwear is just gross. Normally I am not one to be easily disgusted, but that just... ew.

Also, since microwaves heat unevenly, couldn't some bacteria conceivably be transferred to the interior walls of the microwave, and then be passed on to food? Wouldn't you end up with nasty strains of microwave-resistant panty bacteria?

On undergoing plumbing trauma last year, I did a bit of online research into toilet sloth. According to various plumbing sites, putting those cleaning tablets into your toilet is one of the worst things you can do to it-- if it's the chlorine type, it corrodes the rubber gaskets inside, and if it's the blue dye kind, it creates a high-density soup at the bottom of the tank that makes for sluggish flushes.



I opt for the "better immune response through being a pig" option, myself. The only disadvantage is that if you do get stomach flu, you end up looking at a lot more grime under the toilet rim.

Another (and my final) word on the underwear/laundry thing: sunlight is free! Plus, think of all the great exercise (weight lifting and stretching both come to mind) you'll get from lugging your clothes in and out to and from a clothesline. Seems to me the exercise would also benefit your immune system.

I definitly side with the everthing in moderation crowd. Some bacteria and viral exposure is a good thing. Additionally as a single male I believe in spreading the crude around every so often, at least it makes room for fresh microbs. I was a little dissapointed that there was no mention of the benifits of hand washing and using just plain old soap. Most health professionals that I know feel this is the best defense, yet from personal observation this practice is seldom employed in public restrooms. If we were to follow Prof. Gerba's advice we should consider washing our backsides with chlorine bleach. I'll take my chances...

All this talk about fecal bacteria has got me thinking about oral sex. I mean, why should I worry about disinfecting my underwear when I'm putting my mouth at the one spot you'd think would be most contaminated? I do this fairly frequently (the oral sex, not the disinfecting), and have yet to get sick from it. As far as I know, at least. I'm sure I'd stop if my partner wasn't reasonably clean and healthy. Are the bacteria in a toilet plume somehow more dangerous than something that's crawling around on my girlfriend?

Just the sort of scatological detail I like to see! Two points:

I remember seeing something similar some years ago, only that it was suggested that leaving the lid *DOWN* actually increased the aerosol effect, due to the venturi effect between the lid and the curved toilet seat...

The other is that we become immune to the crud that's around us every day. Killing it all off by using massive amounts of chemical warefare just reduces our exposure to "natural" pathogens and lays us open to infection. Doctors are becoming concerned by the increase in diseases like asthma, which they think are due to a lack of contact with everyday bacteria and viruses. (This is the "gyppy tummy" effect - you always suffer illness when travelling abroad, their bugs are different to those back home!

What is very intriguing, coming from a country (Canada) where public health messages are broadcast avery summer to remind people to thoroughly cook their hamburgers, lest they get the "hamburger disease", is to see the French eat the steak tartare (that's raw hamburger meat for you). They even often add a raw egg to it. Haven't they heard of salmonella? Are the differences in food-processing regulations between North-America and Europe so important?

I have pondered this myself, and, because I have nothing better to do with my time, have come up with some thoughts re: bacteria, meat, and you.

First of all, bacteria mostly live on the outside of meats. When supermarkets get the meat to process, it's already got bacteria on it. They then grind it up to make hamburger, transfering the bacteria to the inside of the meat lump. The bacteria are pretty happy in there, and they multiply like crazy in the couple of days they generally have before they are processed into hamburgers by you, and slapped on the barbecue. On the other hand, French chefs doing the steak tartare thing get very fresh cuts of meat, rinse them off pretty well, then grind them up and serve them immediately so the bacteria don't have time to multiply enough to cause problems. (mmm...steak tartare....)

BUT that's not all. I've always been partial to juicier kinds of burgers, and at a cookout I was supervising (nominally) several years ago, I created a bunch of juicy, technically slightly underdone hamburgers. This was by everyone else's approval, mind you - I wasn't *trying* to poison anyone. One person got sick from the burgers, out of the ten or so of us who ate them. We all ate identical amounts of bacteria, but we weren't all affected. Apparently, different people have different reactions to food-borne bacteria. A physician acquaintance of mine confirms this, maintaining it's extremely hard to prove a restaurant responsible for food poisoning because so often, it's the individual who got sick whose gastrointestinal system is at fault for not being able to tolerate "normal" bacteria counts, rather than the restaurant for serving tainted food. Plus, there's no way to really prove it either way unless more than three or four people get sick.

So given that, I think if you're not prone to getting sick from food, grind your own hamburger and eat all the rare burgers you want.

The same concept probably applies to household bacteria, too, in that some people will just always be more sensitive to and affected by them. Natural selection at work

I'm hung up on the underwear/laundry thing. I read that you can microwave a kitchen sponge for one minute to kill any bacteria it might be housing, so, does that hold true for skivvies? Can you nuke them to kill fecal bacteria and then happily go ahead and wash all of your whites together?? As unappealing as the idea of this may seem, it's not any worse than the alternative. Besides, wouldn't bacteria on one garment just as likely spread to other laundry in the hamper making separate loads pointles??

Another issue - why keep meat cutting boards separate from veggi? If the meat one is contaminated, then you're going to get sick from the meat, right? Or are we just trying to give an *extra* measure of protection to the vegetarians among us?

Unfortunately I can't cite the source, but I'm not so sure about making sure your toothbrush is back in the medicine cabinet after use. I remember hearing that keeping your toothbrush in an enclosed, dark place (like a medicine cabinet) made it a great place for the bacteria you just removed from your mouth to keep multiplying.

I think I heard this as part of an exhortation to "air out" your toothbrush by keeping it on a rack or something else outside the medicine cabinet, especially to keep yourself from getting sick by re-using the toothbrush you used when you were sick yesterday, etc.

Anyone?

Have we all lost all sense of proportion and common sense? Are people keeling over after brushing their teeth?

Sure, I can believe there are measureable numbers of organisms deposited thruout the bathroom. But there are many possible reasons we're not all dead: (Note, I'm not a bacteriologist, these are just common sense):


(1) "Measureable" may mean 10 per square cm.
But it may take thousands per square cm to be a self-sustaining population.

(2) They may land on your toothbrush, but can they multiply or even survive when out of the dark, cool water? A dry, clean toothbrush out in the open air and light doesnt sound like a good environment for little critters.

(3) Much food poisoning is due to the waste products of the bacteria, not the bacteria themselves. So if there's no food to eat on your toothbrush, the bacteria are not going to thrive and excrete. Ergo, no waste products.

(4) We are most likely getting our own or our family's e. coli back. Maybe we have an extra bit of tolerance for our own particular strain of e. coli?

Lots of outs. In any case, I try to eat lunch at the local bagel place patronized by our State Commissioner of Health. If it's ok for him, it's probably clean enough for me.

Much as I hate to sound smug, I knew this already. Read it in _The Secret House_ by David Bodanis published in 1986. ISBN 0-671-60032-x.

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Dr. Fidelius
Charlatan and Font of Questionable Knowledge
Associate Curator Anomalous Paleontology, Miskatonic University

I'm a big fan of your column, but I have to say I was a little disappointed
in the recommendation to use so many chlorine products in your column on toilet plumes. Chlorine is an extremely toxic chemical ...

You raise a valid point. Rather than dash off a reply I'll take this up in a followup column.

Cecil: Just read your column on bathroom surfaces being contaminated
every time someone flushes the toilet (and related issues), and let me
tell you, as a sufferer from Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD), I
found it both gratifying and horrifying. These are the kinds of things
that OCDs can't stop thinking about, and spend huge amounts of energy
trying to deal with.

Here's a similar question, and I'm just wondering if anyone has ever
investigated it. Men (I'm one myself, so I know) tend to spray urine
around when they urinate. The straight stream urination is the
exception, not the rule. I realized a few years ago that I was likely to
get urine on my shoes and/or pants every time I urinated standing up. I
knew this was true because I would sometimes get up in the night and
urinate standing up while naked, and I could *feel* the stuff getting on
my legs.

This being the case, it seems to me that most men's pants are
contaminated with urine most of the time, since most men urinate
standing up every time and they do so several times a day. Furthermore,
anything they put on their lap (including their hands) is likely to be
contaminated, too. Not to mention the floor of any men's room floor.

-----------------

Yes Hmooney, but there is one big difference between fecal and urine contamination. There are no diseases a person can catch from contact with the urine of a healthy person. Urine is very sterile, no bacteria should be present in a person's urine.
That being said, I have to thank you for bringing this up. She (Who Must Be Obeyed) already thinks I am obsessive about cleanliness, now She will have to deal with my trousers going to the cleaners after being worn only once...


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Dr. Fidelius
Charlatan and Font of Questionable Knowledge
Associate Curator Anomalous Paleontology, Miskatonic University

[b]Dear God, the germophobes are going to send us all to an early grave!!!<\b>

The extreme overreactions by the Teeming Millions (spare a few logical one such as myself) have illustated why there is such a medical disaster in the making. Now some of my assertions are a bit off topic, but they reflect a common theme.

This overpowering fear of a few stray fecal bacteria (wait 'till they hear how many live in your colon) and such on our tooth brush and sponge and the like are more destructive than simply coping with them. This attitude is the driving force behind the propagation of antibiotic resistant bacteria (an interesting article on the failure of the medical community in this war is in this months Popular Science). Off topic from the same mag was a article that claimed there are too few smells in an American home today. Cleaners and air fresheners kill all smells good and bad, and the lack of smells create a type of olfactory blindfold which creates emotional distress. Ironically, the most missed smells are those found in fresh outdoor air.

We strive to live in such sterile environments we not only atrophy our immune systems, but we encourage the success of hardy resistant bacteria who no longer have any less dangerous to compete with to thrive. The misuse of antibiotics coupled with the availablity of bacteria killing chemicals in common hand soaps and stuff make the opportunity for resistant bacteria to randomly develop. One overriding fact is that the bulk of the most dangerous bacterial infections are contracted in a hospital. While partly due to the abundance of sick people, also because there is so little competing common (the ones our body copes with easily) bacteria for the resourses to thrive.

Cecil, I would like to hear you set this straight and temper your "toliet warfare" article with some real comparative facts to put things in perspective.

Don't even get me started on the need to allow children to safely develop their own immune systems. If I remember correctly you wrote a column describing a cause of the spread of a tuberculosis epidemic (could be a different illness) due to the quick implememtation of quality sewage and street sanitation in major cities. The children for years played in relatively filthy streets and developed natural resistance to it, but then once the children were no longer exposed they contracted the disease as adults where it was much more deadly. I see striking similarities to that drastic change to the one we have encountered in our households today.

The prevalence of asthma, and allergies may be related to this lack of exposure, and our increasingly sedentary and indoor lives.

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The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The distinction is
yours to draw...

Omniscient; BAG

Sorry about the bold, i used the wrong slash in my closing command. Only the first line was intended to be bold, as you may have deduced.

sford - Because meat is cooked to a much higher temperature (160 F) than veggies. That temp kills the bacteria, whether it came from the meat or the cutting board. So unless you're overcooking the crap out of your veggies, and using a veggie thermometer to ensure 160 F throuhgout, a separate cutting board is a must.

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Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick it once and you will suck forever.

[[The straight stream urination is the
exception, not the rule. ]]

I know that to err is human and all, but can this really be true. Not in my house! Hey, put a little something into it!

You give five tips for keeping yourself safe from this -- shall we say, menace -- the overall point being to be clean. Really, really, Clorox(r) clean. You used "bleach" or "chlorine bleach" in four of the five tips.

Chlorine bleach is a serious water pollution problem. Among other things, it breaks down into dioxins in the water. It is such a concern that many local authorities (like ours) include a notice periodically with the water bill asking residents not to use it.

May I suggest five alternate tips, based on yours, but much more environmentally sound?

* Close the toilet lid before flushing.
* Wash your hands.
* Use separate cutting boards and sponges
for meats and vegetables. Make sure
the board used for meat is non-porous.
Periodically run the sponge used for
meat through the dishwasher.
* Reduce the number of decaying carcasses
you bring into the kitchen. Vegetarians
are not completely safe from food
poisoning and other food-borne
contaminants, but they're a lot safer
than meat-eaters.
* Periodically disinfect surfaces with
a chlorine-free cleaner, such as
Citra-Solv (citrus based).

P.S. as for putting your underwear in the microwave, you might as well put your anus in there, too. It's the same bacteria, but you use a milder cleaner and cooler water on your self than on your clothes.

Although I am not as well read on the harmful nature of bleach as a previous writer, I have always been skeptical of the surge in products full of bleach. I read years ago that unless you are sure you can rinse it out completely, like in a washing machine, always be cautious using bleach. Even when bleaching a stained or dirty load of whites I will run a second cycle with a little detergent and baking soda to help rinse out the bleach residue you can smell and feel in heavily bleached fabrics.

I've watched my swimmer friend bring home bright navy trunks which are quickly turned purple and then pink after only a few swims in the pool, his hair is thin and bronzed, and his skin smells like chlorine even after thorough showers, no doubt linked to his dry skin and exzema.

In old porcelain sinks it can make small abrasions and cracks larger and deeper, making your next dirty sink uglier and harder to clean, not to mention eroding your fixture. This would also stand, I assume, for countertops and other large household items. Sponges and cutting boards can be easily replaced when eroded over time in a dishwasher or bleach solution.

Common sense tells you these bleach products are destructive - when eyes start to fill with tears, lungs fill with fumes, noses run and heads hurt while using a bathroom cleaner, there is something destructive in it - no science degree required. (One of my shower doors will never be fully clean because I will not shut myself into a fume-filled tub - each door is more than half the width of the tub, so even if I have the doors 3/4 closed I can clean less than half of this door, but I put my respiratory health above the sparkling shine of my bathroom!).

While my lazy attitude about handwashing was changed by a column (maybe the Straight Dope?) describing the importance of removing germs picked up from touching the areas around the genitalia, not because we "get hands wet when wiping", I also read (maybe in the Straight Dope?) that contrary to the ads for disinfecting soaps and lotions, the only way to kill the germs on hands and skin is to kill the skin itself. Traditional washing in soap and warm water, which I believes helps loosen some of the oils closer to the surface, and drying hands with a paper towel to help remove some of the oils (and therefore some of the germs) from the surface of the skin, is the best way to go. Our bodies, which are filled with germs and microbes, must handle the rest.

Using bleach in laundry is sometimes necessary but definitely decreases the life of the fabric as well as color, and can irritate sensitive skin making it undesirable on undies, sheets and towels. Adding a little baking soda can help rinse things cleaner, and warmer temperatures and longer drying times (for us city dwellers without access to the "free, natural sun") can help disinfect anything that survived the detergent.

Baking soda, soap, hot water, or vinegar can be used to help clean many surfaces. What about ammonia? Is there any research on it's cleaning value versus it's harmful effects?

Basic steps like washing hands and protecting tootbrushes from germ spray, and keeping surfaces that come in contact with raw meat separate and sterile, should be taken. But the bleach craze has to stop while there is still some water left on the planet that doesn't taste like chlorine!

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mrd3

Now we are getting to Heloise stuff. I changed my mind, take this Topic back to the gross stuff, anyone.

This is leading me to believe that the French know what they are doing after all. First we find out that drinking wine is a good thing, now it seems that not washing is healthy. What next? Being rude to Americans leads to better mental health?

I think it's time to flush this topic. Here we go:FLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHH

Re: germs onm dish towels- I just let my dishes air-dry. Learned that trick from an ex-girlfriend who used to work at a diner, a good place to be if you want to learn about germs. :)

What about the lidless toilets in public restrooms? Should concerned citizens agitate for the immediate installation of lids?

I dunno about anyone else, but I rarely close the lid. I haven't keeled over yet, nor has anyone I've ever heard of. Perhaps a mountain is being made over a mole-hill?