Heaven or Hell, which is your choice?

[Roxy]

Revelation 1:7 Look, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him,even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn becasue of Him.
So it shall be! Amen.

When this happens every eye will see him. Do you understand the prophesy right here that has been fulfilled? Think about HOW every eye will see Him...Look at our technology today. Satellites, internet...

Christ is coming back to take His people with Him. Look up and be ready.
†

------------------
Revelation 21:4 He will wipe every tear from thier eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things have passed away. †

[Lucky]

He's going to take all the Christians with him? Well for Pete's sake, tell him to hurry up.

------------------
“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal

Here we have an OP who registered today in an obvious attempt to disrupt this board.

We have a coward who is "so sure" of what he or she has to say that s/he gives no email address nor any other information.

You people do more harm in the name of God than a dozen atheists.

-Melin

[Roxy]

Even so Lord, come quickly!



------------------
Revelation 21:4 He will wipe every tear from thier eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things have passed away. †

Oh, I'm sure he'll be here soon. He does post here.

So does his buddy, Satan,

-Melin

[Czarcasm]

Hey Roxy, it's a lot easier when you are preaching to the converted, isn't it? Little bit of info for you;most of us know the bible backwards and forwards(probably better than you!) are are not impressed by the quotes. If you have a mind of you own, please use your own words. If you don't, just tell us what version of the bible you are referencing, assume that we either have or haven't read it, and go away. You aren't giving us anything that we haven't encountered here before, so why don't you do a little research on what we have previously posted, and get back to us. At least haave the good sense to know your enemies before you attack!

[Spiritus Mundi]

A God who creates a Hell is too immoral for worship.

If you had the faintest understanding of "infinite", you might understand.

------------------

The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.

[Kat]

Heaven or Hell, which is your choice?

Well, Heaven is going to be full of self-righteous fundamentalists, while I hear Hell will have Mark Twain. The choice is obvious.

------------------
Your Official Cat Goddess since 10/20/99.

"We are here! You are saved!" --R. & F.

[RobRoy]

For anyone who thinks the end is at hand - read your texts more carefully. Unless we're already in the 1000 year tribulation, we have 1000 years of hell on earth first.

[WallyM7]

Sez who?

What do you know that we don't?

Are there some secret pages in the Bible that only you have access to?

Get thee behind me.

[Sho]

Ya'll are about the rudest people I have ever met.

All Roxy is telling you is what the Bible says.

You're all wackos

Shoshanna

[Cessandra]

Most of us know what the Bible says, Sho. A lot of us simply don't care.

------------------
Cessandra (http://www.angelfire.com/tx3/miscjunk/profile.html)

It's frightening how many crazies think that world is going to end in a few days. All of us smart people know that it's not ending until next year.

Ok, what's going on here?
A God who creates a Hell is too immoral for worship. One of the most common misconceptions is that God created hell for us humans. This is not true, and I could provide Scripture to back it up. Hell was created for Satan, and his demons. And the Bible makes it abundantly clear that God does not want you to go to hell.
For anyone who thinks the end is at hand - read your texts more carefully. Unless we're already in the 1000 year tribulation, we have 1000 years of hell on earth first Um, perhaps you should read your texts more carefully. Revelation makes it fairly clear that the Great Tribulation is 7 years long. you must be confusing this with the Thousand Year Reign by Jesus, which will occur after the battle of Armageddon. It's all in Revelation. Go ahead and read it, and do your math.

Adam


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"Life is hard...but God is good"

[OpalCat]

Um... telling us what the Bible says isn't neccessary. Most of us already know, the rest don't care. Coming to a non-religiously-oriented board to proselytize is what is rude, actually.

------------------
--
Teeming Millions: http://fathom.org/teemingmillions
"Meat flaps, yellow!" - DrainBead, naked co-ed Twister chat
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com (http://www.opalcat.com)

[Sho]

:)

All righty then Opal. I guess it's a better idea to witness in a religious board, where everyone is Christian. You realize of course, that a place where many of the members are atheist, or heathen, is a gold mine for those who want to spread the Good News.
Um... telling us what the Bible says isn't neccessary. Most of us already know...
And, as with any book, or text, it's possible to read it, but not have true understanding of what it says.

Adam


------------------
"Life is hard...but God is good"

[OpalCat]

I've visited the LB board and laughed my head off several times. It's totally hilarious, right up there with The Onion. The sad thing is those people take themselves seriously. I've never posted there, however, so keep your accusations to yourself, pea-brain.

------------------
--
Teeming Millions: http://fathom.org/teemingmillions
"Meat flaps, yellow!" - DrainBead, naked co-ed Twister chat
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com (http://www.opalcat.com)

[Victoria_Rose]

I just registered today, and after reading some of your posts, it would seem to me that many of you are acting in a rude and (to use OpalCat's word) cretian way. I read all 600+ messages about you guys going over to the LBBB, and I also read some of the posts that were left there. You guys were instigating fights with the members of the LBBB. I have noticed that many of you have stated that you, yourselves, are Christians and know the Bible inside out. Then you would know that the only way to go to heaven is to be born-again (i.e. John 3:3). You would also know that being truely born again, you would not act the way that you did. There are three kinds of Christians. There are the spirit-filled Christians that are on fire for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and try their hardest to win souls for Him. There are closet Christians who are truely Christians, but they are afraid of being rebuted by people, like you, who are angry at God for who knows what reason, and they like to put people down. Then there are the people who think that they are Christians, and they drink alcohol just for the effect, swear (RTFirefly and others), and do other things that go completely against what is stated in the Bible. You guys are the ones that started going over to the LBBB in the first place, (I believe about a month and a half ago) however, I have seen a few of you state that they came over here first and were causing trouble, which is entirely not true. If you didn't want them to come over here, why did you go over there in the first place? You should have known that they would eventually catch onto you. By the way, Charles Darwin/Daniel Schwarr - That was VERY creative, as with several of the other names, even though one of you used the same name on both boards. If some of you really truely are Christians, you acted in a very unChristian manner by doing that, and that, obviously, isn't good.

Thank you, David B. for appologizing to the LBBB members. That was very much in order.

There is a website that might interest you. Go to http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Park/3368, and please be sure to check out the Bible studies. You will DEFINITELY be edified by what you read. There are 100+ things to read on that site, and I STRONGLY recommend encourage you to read them all thoroughly. Unlike many of the things that you posted that supposedly edified people on the LBBB, these pages WILL edify you.

I will let you know, I am a spirit-filled, on fire for God Christian. I go to an Assembly of God church (Pentecostal), and I bear witness of my faith wherever I go. If I seemed a little harsh in this post, please accept my appologies, it was not intended to come out that way. I just intended to GENTLY speak my two cents to you.

I am also a member of the LBBB, but I haven't had time to go there recently due to classes and finals, and then the holidays. I have also read all 6 of the Left Behind series of books, and I eagerly wait for the 7th one to come out in May. I think the books do an excellent job at describing what the world MIGHT very well be like during the Tribulation. They are not written in a Harlequin Romance style. Also, many people don't like to read non-fiction "religious" books. Putting them into a fictitious context makes people want to read them. Many people can even identify with some of the characters of the series. Personally, I read them with much enthusiasm, reading each book in about 8 hours or less. It is my personal opinion that before one criticizes something (i.e. a series of books) one should READ them first. You should not criticize something that you have no knowledge of (with the exception of MAYBE a paragraph). So, please, I'm begging you, if you're going to criticize the Left Behind series of books, please read them first. You just might find them interesting.

God bless.

Victoria Rose

------------------
There is a reason for everything, no matter what happens to us.

[Road Rash]

If you fundies are going to be taken up by the rapture very soon, then you need to do the right thing.

Because when this happens, people are going to vanish from this mortal world in a flash. Cars ore giong to be moving without drivers. Surgeons will disappear in the middle of operations. Pilots will not be flying planes.

So do the right thing. You have NO BUSINESS with a drivers licence or operating any heavy machinery. How do we know we can trust you to stay on the job. On the other hand, If any of you are attorneys, continue your work.

[Kvallulf]

So what happens to my pets? Do they go to hell?

[Victoria_Rose]

To cooldude: The Rapture can happen at any moment. Until then, the Christians are here to witness to the world in order to win souls for Jesus. We have every right that you do, including having a driver's license, operating heavy machinery, etc. We all need to work in order to live. (i.e. food, transportation, utilities, a roof over our heads, etc.) If you're willing to strip that right from one group of people, then it would be wise to strip that right from all people. Besides, during the Tribulation, there will come a time when, unless you have the mark of the beast on your right hand or forehead, that you won't be able to buy, sell, work, etc. If I'm still here on earth when that happens, you can be assured that since I won't take the mark, I won't be driving or operating heavy machinery. (Maybe the embalming machine, but not heavy machinery. In case your wondering, I'm going to school to become a funeral director)

To Kvallulf: No one knows what will happen to our pets. I, myself, own a darling 2.5 year old cat named Noel, and he is my little "baby" so to speak. I love him dearly and would love to have him up in heaven with me! However, I don't know if he will be or not. Only time will tell.

God bless.

Victoria Rose

------------------
There is a reason for everything, no matter what happens to us.

[Cactus Rose]

I believe it was Mark Twain who originally said:
...heaven for climate, and hell for society.


and like Will Rogers, never met the LeftBehinders.

------------------
- A rose by any other name would still have thorns -

[Kvallulf]

Well, thats to bad about the not being able to work without the mark of the beast. Kind of like a social security card for the damned.

Anyway, my pets are dependent on me for food, water, and shelter. So I have to say sorry, if they can't go, I am not going. Besides I already have my wings.

[Gaudere]

Victoria_Rose:
Satan found his way over to the board, from two of your members who argued and attacked him and then ran off, telling him he was going to Hell. He then told the rest of us, and about half-a-dozen went over to debate (not myself). They did not go over there and start several threads with random atheist quotes, unlike you who clogged our boards. I have not seen ill behavior from the Dopers on the LBMB, and I saw a great deal of hatred, smugness and willful ignorance from some of your regulars. Some of your people over there seem very nice; I will not tar all "fundies" with the same brush for the actions of some. But, in truth, there seems to be a culture there that approves of smugly crushing dissenting opinions. If you had come to debate with us with honest intentions of discussion, you would have been welcome. Here, we allow dissenting opinion; we do not delete threads that contain opinions that make us uncomfortable, or force the end of a thread we do not like. If you post here and then choose to then put a thread on your site talking about how silly and stupid we are, I will not find it offensive; I will think it really really funny. :) The SDMB posters honestly meant well, as far as I can tell, and were they not even praised by some of your members for their questions? Can you say the same for your members when they came here?

Is the excerpt posted on the LB site a particularly bad one? Because, I must say, it’s very badly written. Flat characterization and a heavy-handed approach to character psychology. Hey, I have no problem with anyone reading the occasional bit of amusing fluff, but better writing is well worth the effort to find. If you like Christian fiction, I suggest C.S. Lewis; I’m not impressed with his logical apologist arguments, but he can write. The Bible itself has some amazingly well-written passages, like Genesis. God is a terribly uneven writer, though, and sometimes wanders off into dull geneologies and gratuitous sexuality and horror (“members like asses”, children being mauled by bears, et al).

[Victoria_Rose]

I appoligize for my erronacy. I didn't realize that 2 of the LBBB members had said that. If they truely said it in the manner that you say they did, they were wrong in doing so. However, if they were trying to help "Satan" by trying to witness to him, they should have done it a little more gently, if that's the word. However, the DOZEN or so people that I counted that did go over there were a LITTLE harsh in their statements. I read all the ones that I was able to read. The fellowship hall is a place where we encourage each other in our walk with Christ. We are not there to "bash" each other. From some of the things that I've read, the members of the LBBB were getting quite fed up with some of the remarks that were being made by the members of the SDMB. As I was reading the messages left on both MB's, I was getting quite angry myself, and there were several things that I wanted to say to you people, which, since I'm calmed down now, I won't. Actually, I've even forgotten most of the things I was going to say anyway. I can see quite well why they were saying the things that they were.

God bless.

Victoria Rose

------------------
There is a reason for everything, no matter what happens to us.

[Jois]

Victoria Rose, you are way too kind.

[Victoria_Rose]

I try to be fair and courtious. I let people voice their views, but I also let them know how I feel about the same topic. I think a lot of it has to do with the life that I lived before I became a Christian 5.5 years ago. I was mentally and verbally abused by my dad, molested by my grandfather, etc. However, since becoming a Christian, and being forgiven of my sins, I have forgiven my dad and grandfather. (Yes, it is possible to do!) Actually, in order for me to be healed from the pain of the abuse, I had to forgive them. That's why I love Jesus so much! He forgive me for my sins, which, in turn, I forgave some people who had majorly sinned against me. It may seem like it would be extremely difficult, or even impossible to do, (which it WAS very difficult to do) but I had to do it. I love both of them very much now!

Like I said, I think it has been my life experiences that have made me the way I am. It takes a lot to get me mad, and even more to make me spout my anger. However, everything happens to everyone for a reason.

God bless!

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Victoria Rose.

------------------
There is a reason for everything, no matter what happens to us.

[tracer]

ARG220 wrote:

And the Bible makes it abundantly clear that God does not want you to go to hell.

Bullshit. If God didn't want us to go to hell, He would just make it so -- He would snap His fingers (or do whatever it is God does when making a decree) and say, "Nobody's going to hell, no matter what." The Bible makes it abundantly clear that God has done NO such thing; in fact, God's choice to abandon every non-Believer to the clutches of Satan (whom God also created) speaks volumes about God's real motivation.

Or it would, if I believed that a collection of 66 poorly-written and self-contradictory ancient books were anything more than an exercise in mythology.

------------------
The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.

Tracer: Come now. Let's be reasonable. You do like your free will right? The right to chose whom you serve? God's gift to us is free will, and it's He won't "snap His fingers" and make it so. And where in the Bible does it say that God created Satan? I could have missed it, but I'm pretty sure it's not in there. God DID create an angel, who also had free will. (As all angels do) The angel simply got prideful, and was tossed from heaven.

I would quote you Scripture, but it wouldn't do any good. Even if you don't believe what the Bible says, you should at least know what it says, before you make such claims. I wonder what it would take for you to believe.

Adam

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"Life is hard...but God is good"

[tracer]

I say again: If God really didn't want anyone to go to Hell, He could have decreed that no one would ever go to hell no matter whom they served.

Or are you saying that God isn't omnipotent?

[Spiritus Mundi]

Tracer:
It's really even simpler than that. If an omnipotent and omniscient creator of all things did not want some people to go to Hell, then He would not create one.

So, if you believe God exists and Hell exists, then it follows trivially that God wants some people to go to Hell. Now, infinite punishment is inherently cruel, and infinite punishment for a finite act is inherently unjust. Therefore, God not only wants people to go to Hell, he wants to do it because He is cruel and unjust. At least, that is the logical conclusion implied by the belief that sinners go to Hell.

------------------

The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.

Tracer: I feel like we've nitpicked at this before. But for the benefit of those who did not read that discussion, we'll try again.

Believe it or not, you are chosing to go to heaven, or hell. At this point, I'm assuming you're not Christian, and are therefore chosing hell. God does not want you there. In fact, He wants you in heaven with Him so much, that He sent His Son to die for you, that you may be cleasned of your sin, and made blameless in God's eyes.

That right there is Christianity in a nutshell, and I'm sure you already know that. You just don't believe it.

You asked if God could have created us without the will to chose our master. Sure, He could have. You're a smart person, you know this stuff. But imagine what humans would be like without free will? It's actually unimaginable to me, since "free will" is one of the things that defines humanity.
It's so simple.


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"Life is hard...but God is good"

[GuanoLad]

I've always liked the Greek Gods. I think I'll believe in them instead. I wonder what if I get to have an eternal soul or not. Maybe I'll get to father a demi-God.

Cool.

:)

------------------
-PIGEONMAN-
Hero For A New Millennium!

The Legend Of PigeonMan (http://www.hotkey.net.au/~guanolad/pigeonman/) - Back in the new year! Honest. I promise. No, really.

[WallyM7]

ARG, you can't believe in free will and an omnipotent God at the same time. Even I know that.

To an omnipotent God, all of the future would be before His eyes. He knows what I'm going to do before I do. Therefore, the future has been determined. Therefore, there is no free will.

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A seminar on time travel will be held two weeks ago.

[David B]

[Moderator Hat: ON]

OpalCat said:I've never posted there, however, so keep your accusations to yourself, pea-brain.Ok, no matter what else is going on around here, direct insults like this belong only in the Pit. Let's keep them there, please.

------
David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator

[Moderator Hat: OFF]

[Surgoshan]

I want to go to hell because all of the fun people will be there. Hey, one wild party!

[RTFirefly]

Folks: aren't we getting far more steamed up than either Roxy's or Vicki's posts warrant?

Melin: when posting in an unfamiliar place, I think it's circumspect, rather than cowardly, to not reveal too much. (Including one's email address.) I went months here before putting mine up; in the weeks that I was on the LBMB, I never gave my email address out there since I figured it would be silly to give Thomas and friends the opportunity to rant at me through that medium, in addition to the LBMB itself.A God who creates a Hell is too immoral for worship.

If you had the faintest understanding of "infinite", you might understand.God's choice to abandon every non-Believer to the clutches of Satan (whom God also created) speaks volumes about God's real motivation.

Or it would, if I believed that a collection of 66 poorly-written and self-contradictory ancient books were anything more than an exercise in mythology.Got our hackles up here, guys?

Spiritus, tracer - what's your object, to make us look almost as uncivil as the LBMB? It's working.

Vic - did SDMBers start debates in the Fellowship Hall? I must admit I was unaware of that, and I apologize for them if that happened. I stayed with the Narrow Road forum, because that was given as the appropriate place for debates, and I was aware that there was a last-days or end-times forum where debate also took place, and SDMBers participated. But the Fellowship Hall should've been off limits for anything but fellowship, and I apologize for my friends if they sowed dissent over there.

Gaudere, ARG - good posts.

[RTFirefly]

Then there are the people who think that they are Christians, and they drink alcohol just for the effect, swear (RTFirefly and others), and do other things that go completely against what is stated in the Bible.Ah, I hear my name taken in vain.

Vic, I drink beer and wine not for effect, but because I like it, and because, as the Bible makes abundantly clear, it's a good thing. As CS Lewis pointed out, Jesus' first miracle involved the creation of wine. And as Isaiah prophesied, "On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine - the best of meats and the finest of wines." (Is.25:6, NIV; italics mine.)

Now, about that swearing: what's worse - saying 'damn' or keeping silent while contemporary Jews are tagged as Christ-killers? Isaiah (29:13) again: "These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me." I agree that swearing isn't good, and the moment it makes the list of one of my forty or fifty worst routine sins, I promise to get to work on it. Right now, to be frank, swearing is down in the white noise, and the Lord doesn't seem to be pushing me on it, whereas there are *serious* areas of sin in my life that He is making noise about. First things first.

Well, I guess I'll go back to thinking I'm a Christian now. :)

[the first supraliminal]

Hi, ARG, glad to see you back.

To Surgoshan, do the "fun" people include the baby rapers?

I think Mark Twain missed the point. Some interesting people are not "fun" to hang with.



------------------
There's always another beer.

quote

<hr>
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints..

Billy Joel
<hr>

------------------
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
Harry S. Truman

[navx2man]

Banks What makes you think saints are going to be crying? If you don't think they will be crying, why did you quote Billy Joel?

------------------
There is only ONE WAY! (John 14:6)

ARG, you can't believe in free will and an omnipotent God at the same time. Even I know that.
To an omnipotent God, all of the future would be before His eyes. He knows what I'm going to do before I do. Therefore, the future has been determined. Therefore, there is no free will.
Let's say that I am a god. I am all powerful, and all knowing. Does this mean that what you do tomorrow is set in stone? Is everyone's future unchangable? Just because I can control what happens in every individuals life, does not mean that I do.

It's been said that God sees time as one image. In other words, it's not linear. But, we still control the power to change the future. No, you can't trick God, or pull a fast one on Him. When you decide to change plans, He knows it ahead of time. But the fact remains that we are still in control of the present. We chose whom we serve.

Adam


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"Life is hard...but God is good"

[WallyM7]

Adam, you obviously did not spend much time thinking about this.

Either the future is changeable, in which case God has an imperfect view of it, or it is unchangeable, in which case there is no free will.

You can't have it both ways.

------------------
A seminar on time travel will be held two weeks ago.

Try not to think of this in the eyes of science Wally. God is outside of the natural realm, and inhabits the supernatural. He is omnipotent, and we do have free will.

I think I see what you're thinking of though. You're saying that God looks at time, as a rigid, unchangable thing, right? He sees it all in one piece, so it must not be "flexible" in your mind. But, obviously, you know that we DO have free will, and CAN change the future. Honestly, I don't fully understand how God interacts with the laws of time. But, I do believe in Him, and His omnipotence.

Adam

------------------
"Life is hard...but God is good"

[Konrad]

Is it true hell has an open bar?

[Spiritus Mundi]

Spiritus, tracer - what's your object, to make us look almost as uncivil as the LBMB?

My objective was to acquaint them with an alternative point of view. My manner was dictated by their approach. My point remains the same. For a moral being who truly understands the nature of "infinite" and "eternal", the concept of Hell which these posters were advocating is unconscionable. The fact that they are unable to reason to the conclusion of their premises is simply unsurprising.

------------------

The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.

[tracer]

Plus, of course, the Atheist Bible requires me to evangelize The Truth [TM] to all those wayward Christian sheep out there. (KIDDING! Kidding!)

RTFirefly wrote:

Melin: when posting in an unfamiliar place, I think it's circumspect, rather than cowardly, to not reveal too much. (Including one's email address.)

I, too, regret not pointing this out the instant Melin said it. It's perfectly reasonable not to put ones e-mail address in ones personal information -- if for no other reason than to keep junk e-mail from becoming a problem.

Now, though, there are at least 5 messages in the "We Are Under Attack" thread over on the LBMB which claim us Straight-Dopers chided them and called them cowards for not revealing their e-mail addresses to us.

[kerux]

Wow, this is the third thread I've posted on, and I really appreciate the chance to give my 3 cents (I tend to be wordy) on some of the things people are saying.

First, RTFirefly (nightmare), it's nice to see you here. I missed ya on the other thread. I thought, and still think, you have some excellant comments.

Now-
Either the future is changeable, in which case God has an imperfect view of it, or it is unchangeable, in which case there is no free will.

First if you take the stance that God is omnipotent then he can have and do whatever he wants. If he wants to be able to know the future and what will happen, but not control it, then he can.

The idea of Omniscence (sp?) and Predestination is a debate even among christians. This is my take-
God can and does know what will happen. He know the beginning and end of the story, along with everything in between. But he chooses to let us write the story.

We still have the choice to do what we do, and God just knows what we are going to choose. That's all.

EVEN if it doesn't make sense or be logical (it does make sense and is logical to me), God is omnipotent so it can still happen.

------------------
"7But all these things that might have helped me, I call them all nothing, because of Christ. 8Yes, I call them all nothing, because to know Christ Jesus my Lord is much better. It is for his sake that I have given them all up and call them just dirt."
Phil. 3:6-8

[RTFirefly]

Hey, Nav, good to see you here!

I think Billy Joel's point was that those who speak as if they know what God's for and against, also tend to be the ones glaring from across the room when "we might be laughing a bit too loud, but that never hurt no one." That sort of cardboard saint...well, usually has his/her teeth clenched too hard to be crying, but you get the idea.

[Rabbi Sam]

Well Roxy, if your not too much a fundementalist and are open minded enough to accept som historical validity on the evolution of the whole concept of paradise and hell; I refer you to my website. After clicking on the Link below, then click on the Link at the top of the page entitled
"Torah Lessons." Like I said, if your not too closed minded, what you learn there about Hell and how it came to be seen throughout the ages may be an eye-opener for you.
http://pages.hotbot.com/und/sksloan/index.html

Shalom,

Rabbi Sam

------------------
shema yisrael adonai eloheynu adonai echad

[WallyM7]

God can and does know what will happen. He know the beginning and end of the story, along with everything in between. But he chooses to let us write the story.

These feats of mental gymnastics are beyond my abilities.

If God knows the story, then it has been written. It's a done thing. We are actors, saying the lines, performing the actions.

If God knows in advance what we are going to do, we are powerless to change it.

That is NOT free will.

------------------
A seminar on time travel will be held two weeks ago.

[Snark]

Spiritus Mundi wrote:

For a moral being who truly understands the nature of "infinite" and "eternal", the concept of Hell which these posters were advocating is unconscionable. The fact that they are unable to reason to the conclusion of their premises is simply unsurprising.

Now if I were to break my own self-imposed silence about my religion and tell you that it teaches that finite sin DOES have only finite punishment, I would. But I'm still on vacation, so I won't mention it. ;)

[kaylasdad99]

Rabbi Sam, welcome to the SDMB. I'm sure I'm not alone in hoping that you will stick around and favor us with your wisdom, your learnedness, your gentlemanly demeanor and your wit and charm. I also hope that you will find us to generally live up to the standards of respect and decorum that you consistently display over on the LBMB (caveat emptor: the level of discourse can become quite ...spirited, at times, but I can assure you that it will not be you or your way of life that comes up for challenge, it will be the things you say to us. In cases where the preceding does not apply, you will find yourself defended by a wide array of posters, with belief systems ranging from hard atheism to zealous, albeit respectful, evangelical Christianity. Also various stripes of Jews, mystics, and non-denominational seekers after wisdom and Truth).

So, make yourself at home, visit the various forums (or fora, if you prefer), and PLEASE become as valuable a member over here as you were/are on the LBMB (and, if I may say so, far more valued).

I second kaylasdad's good wishes to the Rabbi. I used to read the LBB as much as the SDMB until the Rabbi was obliged to leave, and am delighted to see him here, where I hope he will write often.

I am also actually very glad that the cloak-and-dagger nonsense with LBB is over and done with - it was really a bit juvenile, I thought. (No, it wasn't me that shopped you, although I did think about it at one point.) So I'm pleased too that there are LBBers here now - hello!

As for this thread, I agree entirely with Adam. Just because we don't fully understand the mechanics of it, doesn't mean that it cannot be true that God is omnipotent/-scient and also that we have free will. I don't know why Wally wd expect the universe to conform to what he personally can understand, but trust he will have the humility to accept that it need not and in fact doesn't - which I think must be a relief to us all.

[coosa]

Is this the same famous/infamous Rabbi Sam from the LBBB? Welcome, welcome! I read some of your posts over there when I was checking out their board, and enjoyed them very much. (Uh, no, I'm not one of the alleged 'attack' team.)

Glad you've found us, hope you'll stay!

------------------
Carpe diem - Seize the day
Carpe noctem - Seize the night
Carpe cerevisi - Seize the beer

[SoulFrost]

Hiya Rabbi! I would like to echo the hopes offered above that you'll hang around for awhile. Your posts have always been educational.

Back on Topic: The only way that I, with my limited mortal mind, can reconcile Free Will with an Omniscient God is to believe that God sees ALL possible futures.

I know no better way to describe it without invoking Quantum theory, EPR translocation, and Mr. S's favorite feline, all of which I am painfully ignorant about.

-David

[Gaudere]

Ah, but then how does God know which particular timeline we will pick, so he can predict things? ;) If I knew *all* the possible futures, how would I know what would happen tomorrow? I would know everything that *could* happen but not what *will*, I think.

[SoulFrost]

Maybe there is no "one true reality"...all potential timelines may be as valid--and possibly as real--as this one.

Like I said...I just don't know.

-David
Oh...and might I suggest reading The Man Who Folded Himself by David Gerrold? Pretty good fiction relating to alternate, but valid, timelines...old, though.

[Gaudere]

But if all the potential realities are real, and God knows what happens in each one, we have Wally's dilemma again. Boy, sometimes I'm glad I'm an atheist and don't have to fret about such things. Perhaps if God is a four-dimensional being (existing in all times at once) we can step everything down one level and use as a metaphor God as a three dimensional being, and our world as a 2-D surface moving through Him (to represent our 3-D world moving through the 4th dimension, time). However, then our metaphorical 3D being must be able to exist and interact fully as a infinitely thin 2D slice, and we have no evidence that such a thing could happen. Hmm...this may be why some prefer to have faith than think. ;)

[SoulFrost]

AAAAHHHHHHHHHHH...my head!!!!

(Gaudere)
..as for example the Incarnation?

[Gaudere]

Or any time He interacts. It would be like you or I being able to be "us" even in a 2-D slice (which would be *so* thin there would be nothing left of us; we *can't* be 2-D). 2-D isn't just a "sheet of paper" thin; it's width and length, but no height. It's hard to even conceive of, in a 3-D and 4-D world.

[Ringo]

Pretty cool there, Gaudere..., I think I tripped somewhere in the midst of it, though.

[Surgoshan]

I shouldn't dignify Beeruser's question to me with a response, and I won't, since the requisite response should be obvious to all.

As to the rest of the discussion, I've nothing to add, really.

[Gaudere]

Here, as long as I'm doing metaphors, try this one on for size: God as a photon. Now, photons move at the speed of light, so all times are 'now' to them, right? Sounds like a good description of God. So if a photon is bouncing around in a room, and five hundred years later (as we measure it) it hits a light-sensitive button that we have moved into place and kills Schrodinger's Cat. Now at the beginning of its bounces can it alter its path to not kill the kitty? How can it; all times are now! It is killing the kitty in the same "now" as it starts bouncing.

[Ringo]

Well, I guess the kitty kill button was really there the whole time, so the kitty kill was part of the plan, right?

[kerux]

With my limited writing ability I seem to be having trouble making myself clear. It makes complete sense to me, but I can't seem to verbalize it correctly. *GRRR*

So, here is what I think- in the words of C.S. Lewis...

Another difficulty we get if we believe God to be in time is this. Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tommorrow. But if He knows I am going to do so-and-so, how can I be free to do otherwise? Well, here once again, the difficulty comes from thinking that God is progressing along the Time-line like us: the only difference being that He can see ahead and we cannot. Well, if that were true, if God foresaw our acts, it would be very hard to understand how we could be free not to do them. But suppose God is outside and above the Time-line. In that case, what we call "tommorrow" is visible to Him in just the same way as what we call "today." All the days are "Now" for Him. He does not remember you doing things yesterday; He simply sees you doing them: because though you have lost yesterday; He has not. He does not "foresee" you doing things tommorrow; He simply sees you doing them: because though tommorrow is not yet there for you, it is for Him. You never supposed that your actions at this moment were any less free because God knows what you are doing. Well, He knows your tommorrow's actions in just the same way- because He is already in tomorrow and can simply watch you. In a sense, He does not know your action until you have done it: but then the moment at which you have done it is already "Now" for Him.
[u]Mere Christianity[/i] by C.S. Lewis, 1943

Does that help at all?

BTW, it's nice to read you again Rabbi, I missed ya over yonder at LBBB. :)

------------------
"7But all these things that might have helped me, I call them all nothing, because of Christ. 8Yes, I call them all nothing, because to know Christ Jesus my Lord is much better. It is for his sake that I have given them all up and call them just dirt."
Phil. 3:6-8

[WallyM7]

As I maintained earlier, if God is omnipotent, we do not have free will.

If we have free will, God is not omnipotent.

I can come to no other conclusion.

Of course, there are other problems as well if you insist on an omnipotent God.

But we'll leave that for another day.

[Phaedrus]

kerux: Good post, welcome (grumble grumble). I love that book. have you read "A Grief Observed"?

Rabbi Sam!!!! Heartiest Welcome!!!!

Shalom!

Yours,

Pheadrus

(can't beat 'em might as well join 'em)

[Ringo]

Exactly, Wally.

If you have free will, no god is omnipotent. Period.

Positing free will as an illusion proves no god, only determinism.

[Ringo]

Going back to the OP...

If you're not christian there is no hell.

[kerux]

I think that this is gonna be one of those things neither side can understand. I don't understand how God knowing what we are going to do, especially in the context C.S. Lewis described- that all times are now, and God sees what you are doing "now," but that doesn't lessen the fact that it is your choice.

I just guess I can't understand the problem with that. Just one of those things.

Phaedrus- thank you, i think. I'm not quite sure what the grumbling was though... I haven't read that book... I'm not done with Mere Christianity yet.

But as beatle said, back to the OP...
There either is a hell or there isn't. Whether one believes in the reality of it has nothing to do with its existance. If your neighbor had a hairless cat, and you didn't believe that your neighbor would own a hairless cat, because they are so ugly, that wouldn't affect the cat's existance.

After we all die, we will see whether or not there is a hell or not... I believe there is, many believe there isn't... but what you and I believe does not affect the existance of it.

------------------
"7But all these things that might have helped me, I call them all nothing, because of Christ. 8Yes, I call them all nothing, because to know Christ Jesus my Lord is much better. It is for his sake that I have given them all up and call them just dirt."
Phil. 3:6-8

[Ringo]

kerux,

First, thanks for trying as opposed to just bombarding us with scripture. I read the C.S. Lewis quote above, and, while it attempts to address the question, it clears up little.

I don't understand how God knowing what we are going to do, especially in the context C.S. Lewis described- that all times are now, and God sees what you are doing "now," but that doesn't lessen the fact that it is your choice.

I'm sorry, dear, but that just does not make sense. I realize the pitfalls of posting and understand you may well have had two sentences forming in your mind, so I'll not quibble over the disjunction. The fact remains that your previous couple of posts do nothing to clear up the matter.

One thing I might add is that, if you consider the vast range of cosmological beliefs abounding, none of which any of the adherents can prove, almost all of us (if not all) have got it wrong.

[Commander Fortune]

Also happy to see you made it to this board, Rabbi Sam.

[tracer]

And speaking of a 2-Dimensional existence, Gaudere:

Have you ever read The Planiverse, by A.K. Dewdney? He goes in to MUCH greater detail about how life (i.e. biology) could exist in a 2-dimensional universe than old Edwin Abbot's Flatland ever did. The stars and planets are circles (not spheres), the continents and oceans are on the outer edge of their circular "Earth", and hollow tubes -- which require at least 3 dimensions to keep from collapsing -- are replaced by "zipper joints" which open and close in small lengths to let objects pass through. The complete world Dewdney creates is quite fascinating and eminently workable in only 2 dimensions.

------------------
The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.

tracer,As to God sending someone to hell: Hell was created for the devil and the fallen angels.However,if someone is guilty,should they not go to jail?

[Gaudere]

I've never read The Planiverse. It sounds cool; the "zipper tubes" is a great idea. I did read Flatland; the bit I remeber best about that was the author's misogyny. The "females" (who were triangles; men were varying degrees of 4 or more sided polygons, up to circles) were incredibly stupid and were required by law to constantly move the "point" of their triangle back and forth so the others could see them, because otherwise they'd impale their own family. I liked the story anyway.

[David B]

Just had to share this: The funniest example of God and omnipotence came from the campus preacher (Mad Max) at the University of Illinois (he actually travels around, but that's where I was). Before the Gulf War, when we were building up troops, he was preaching that God told him we would lose to the Iraqi army and our forces would be crushed. Then, when it didn't happen, we asked him why. His response? "God changed His mind."

Ah, of course. An omnipotent being told him one thing but then "changed His mind" about it. But wouldn't He, being omnipotent, know He was going to change His mind? Needless to say, Max changed the subject. :)

[Rabbi Sam]

If we ever get to the point where we can understand G-d, then he will no longer be
G-d. He/She/It will be nothing more than the vain imaginings of our own finite intellect, hopes and dreams.

Yet with each discussion we have with each other concerning G-d we come that much closer to knowing G-d.

Ahhh, paradox, ain't life grand...? Are to quote a famous man:

"Reality, what a concept!"

Robin Williams

------------------
shema yisrael adonai eloheynu adonai echad

[Liberal]

Tracer:

How does a two dimensional creature discern a circle from a square without traversing its circumference? Also, isn't it true that he can't tell whether the shapes are solid or not? (He can't get over the "wall".)

------------------
"It is lucky for rulers that men do not think." — Adolf Hitler

[kaylasdad99]

Rabbi Sam, welcome to the SDMB. I'm sure I'm not alone in hoping that you will stick around and favor us with your wisdom, your learnedness, your gentlemanly demeanor and your wit and charm. I also hope that you will find us to generally live up to the standards of respect and decorum that you consistently display over on the LBMB (caveat emptor: the level of discourse can become quite ...spirited, at times, but I can assure you that it will not be you or your way of life that comes up for challenge, it will be the things you say to us. In cases where the preceding does not apply, you will find yourself defended by a wide array of posters, with belief systems ranging from hard atheism to zealous, albeit respectful, evangelical Christianity. Also various stripes of Jews, mystics, and non-denominational seekers after wisdom and Truth).

So, make yourself at home, visit the various forums (or fora, if you prefer), and PLEASE become as valuable a member over here as you were/are on the LBMB (and, if I may say so, far more valued).