John Lennon's Legacy...

[Phaedrus]

Elmer, as some history has been written about him already, it always includes his ideology, which was crucial to the music he wrote when he was writing by himself after the Beatles.

Sorry you feel his ideology wasn't important. It changed the world.

[Elmer J. Fudd]

Changed the World?

This is the most historically retarded statement I have ever read! How old are you?


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Elmer J. Fudd,
Millionaire.
I own a mansion and a yacht.

[Phaedrus]

Elmer, you may your opinion and I may have mine. For you to flame as you have done shows either you are quite young or not well read.

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

John Lennon's most lasting legacy will be his songs, many of which are quite beautiful. IMO, McCartney was the best musician of the Beatles, but I think John will be remembered as the band's maestro -- due in large part to those who idolize him an an apostle of peace. Although the Beatles were obviousily one of the biggest influences on popular culture in the past 30 years, I tend to agree with Elmer Fudd on Lennon "changing the world."

Julian Lennon may be a fine man, but, again IMO, he is a mediocre musician. And Yoko Ono is one of the biggest poseurs on the planet.

As to where I was when Lennon was shot: I was sitting in a New Albany (Ind.) apartment drinking a shot of tequila and smoking a joint, preparatory to hitting the bars in Louisville, Ky., to celebrate my 21st birthday.
I was so upset by the news that I went home instead (probably just as well).

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The Coyote gnaws ....
but he does not swallow.

[pldennison]

Lennon's ideology was undoubtedly extremely important to him, but it changed somewhat over the course of his post-Beatles life, and he expressed it in more-or-less successful ways. When it was good (the Imaginealbum, a masterpiece of introspection, or Double Fantasy taking stock of his life as a husband and father at 40), it was better than anything else around; when it was bad (the ham-handed leftism of Sometime In New York City), it was still OK, but it wasn't as good.

We all have the popular images of Lennon from the last years of his life--the homebound father baking bread, spending time with his son, and writing songs that meant something to him. But none of us really knew the man.

I think it's possible to listen to his post-Beatles (and late-era Beatles) music without knowing about his causes and his ideas, but I don't think it would be as enjoyable. All I know is "Dig A Pony" is a pretty awesome song.

[Elmer J. Fudd]

Pray, tell me how John Lennon changed the world! Long hair? Concept Albums? Bed ins? These aren't historically significant trends. Do you think he was the leader of the '60s counter culture? He wasn't. He was the co-leader of a pop-quartet....and a damn good one, too.

By the way, I was working on my Masters in History in 1980.

Don't take offence. Just back up your extraordinary claims.

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Elmer J. Fudd,
Millionaire.
I own a mansion and a yacht.

[Phaedrus]

Two great posts!

[David B]

Orangecakes said:He actually had the evidence for creation of the earth by God,but...guess he took it with himROFL!! Ok, Orangecakes gets two bonus points for today. :)

[Keeves]

I strongly disagree with many points of his ideology, but his ability to put those ideas into his music was fantastic.

[Phaedrus]

David B: I thought you would enjoy what OC said. ;) I created this post for everyone, but Lennon was an atheist or perhaps an agnostic. He was killed by a "born-again" Christian who thought he should be stopped because many years ago he said that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus.

Elmer: No offence taken. I had one masters in 1980 and was working on a second.

It is my opinion that John, who started the group changed the world from the perspective of culture. I don't believe the summer of love would have happened without drugs or the Beatles.

[Rhythmdvl]

I gotta back up Phaedrus on the change-the-world thing. Didn't at first, but it is my opinion that John, who started the group changed the world from the perspective of culture. I don't believe the summer of love would have happened without drugs or the Beatles. made me see his point. Of course, he didn't single handedly change the world, but he had a heck of an influence on the thinking / attitude of a generation.

Sure sure sure, I'm only 30 and can't speak from first hand knowledge, but I don't think I'm far off in saying that pop music (pop isn't quite the right word. Seems to put the Beatles in the same category as Ricky Martin. Well, for some people…) had some influence over the generation. Even if one thinks the music was just a reflection of current attitudes, there is some feedback that would carry on that attitude.

So yeah, as a founding member of one of the most influential groups of an era, I would say that he helped influence at least a generation, if not more. Maybe it would have been more appropriate to say "Sorry you feel his ideology wasn't important. It [helped] change the world."


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Once in a while you can get shown the light
in the strangest of places
if you look at it right…

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

rhythmdvl, influencing a generation is hell of a lot different from changing the world

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The Coyote gnaws ....
but he does not swallow.

[Elmer J. Fudd]

The "Lennon" that changed the world isn't spelled that way.

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Elmer J. Fudd,
Millionaire.
I own a mansion and a yacht.

[Phaedrus]

touche' Elmer, and VERY funny! ;)

[pldennison]

I think the Summer of Love (or, ironically, the SOL) would definitely have happened without the Beatles. Don't take this statement wrong, because I absolutely love the Beatles. They're my favorite band, bar none, but in many instances they were not the leaders or originators people think.

They were, however, popularizers. The peace, love and drugs movement was already in full swing in the U.S. before the Beatles joined in; they, however, all jumped in headfirst, and because of their primacy in the music world they were able to carry the message farther and faster. (And only had the luxury to do so after they stopped touring.)

The Beatles really were somewhat peripheral figures in everything going on in 1967. The SF scene was as much about jam bands and acid rock as it was "Sgt. Pepper." And they themselves didn't participate in any of the big festivals. (Notable is George Harrison's comment during the "Beatles Anthology," being the only Beatle who travelled to SF in 1967, that he thought he was going to encounter smart young people working for peace and love, and instead found it to be like the Bowery.)

[RTFirefly]

Ever see the Firesign Theatre album cover with "All Hail Marx-Lennon" on the cover? With pix of Groucho and John, of course.

As one who is old enough to remember where he was when JFK was asassinated, I don't see how Lennon's ideology changed the world. The Summer of Love may not have happened without the Beatles, but only in the sense that they revitalized rock n'roll, which enabled the music to become a focal point of that generation. And John's solo career came a bit late for influencing all that. Maybe his influence was felt in the Reagan years. :)

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"Living in this complex world of the future is not unlike having bees live inside your head." - Firesign Theatre

[astorian]

John Lennon was one of the great all-time rock and roll screamers (his renditions of CHuck Berry's "Rock and ROll Music" and Little Richard's "Dizzy Miss Lizzie" far surpass the originals), and he was a superb songwriter.

That SHOULD be enough of a legacy, but apparently it isn't, for many people. As a political savant, Lennon left much to be desired. He was no intellectual- rather, he was a smart-alecky, working class art school dropout. He was more wise-guy than wise. He had nothing of great importance to say, but then why should we expect him to? NOBODY wonders about the "legacy" of Irving Berlin or Bing Crosby!

John Lennon was a great entertainer- nothing less, but certainly nothing more. I have all the Beatles' albums, and wouldn't give them up for anything. But I would no sooner look to John Lennon for political or religious guidance than I would to Ringo Starr.

[Sake Samurai]

As someone who really dislikes John Lennon and the Beatles I must opine the following:

His music? With the exception of "Imagine" and a handful of others, I find it lackluster, trite, and average. He's wat better than Paul though.

His ideology? Ha! Sorry, but pop-philosophy has never interested me. He's about as deep as Jim Morrison.

His son, Sean? No, but at least John wouldn't be as pissed as Bob Dylan must be regarding his son's musical choices.

His wife, Yoko? Puh-lease! The only good thing that can be said about her is that she helped cause the Beatles to break-up. Truly, she was sent from God!

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Hell is Other People.

[longhair75]

friend phaedrus,

an interesting topic. today is a day to mourn the loss of john lennon. he was a fine musician and a fine songwriter. i am not as sure of the influence of his ideology.

i believe he was sincere in his desire for peace. i think the way he chose to express his ideology to the world made it seem absurd. yoko was a very bad influence on john. her mixture of politics and weird performance art made john look foolish.



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"don't get strung out by the way that i look, don't judge a book by it's cover" (tim curry as dr. franknfurter in rhps)

[Phaedrus]

Today 19 years ago Famous ex-Beatle John Lennon was shot and killed outside in New York apartment. My question is, he left us a lot, but which was the most important thing he left us?

His music?

His ideology? "Imagine there's no heaven?"

His son, Sean?

His wife, Yoko? What?

Phaedrus

[GirlFace]

His ideology was a great gift, but his ability to express that through music is right up there too. I think I would have liked his music even if I didn't like his politics, but you never know how much one influences the other.

He actually had the evidence for creation of the earth by God,but...guess he took it with him
;)

[Elmer J. Fudd]

Some really wonderful songs. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Personally, I think he would have despised the way he's been worshipped as some sort of martyr or 1960s prophet.

He'll be remembered as a popular musician and songwriter long after people have forgotten about the social issues he is now identified with.

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Elmer J. Fudd,
Millionaire.
I own a mansion and a yacht.

[Phaedrus]

Thanks Rose, a side question also might be, if you are old enough to remember, where were you when you heard?

[Phaedrus]

longhair75: I go there every five years to mourn. I have been to Strawberry Fields in 82 85 90 and 95. In 95 I ended up on tv in new york singing beatles songs, yeah, longhair, I still miss him........

[Phaedrus]

I meant that I go there on the anniversary of his death.......

[putrid]

I agree with the majority that Lennon's music was great, and the other stuff was pretty unimportant. I still rate the Beatles up at the top of my list, and John as the most interesting musician of them. Unlike some others, I liked the rock, not the slow slop.

As for his killer, he of course killed him because he was a loony killer, not for any other real reason. But even from the standpoint of loony morons' delusions supposedly being related to the real world, I don't recall anyone (but the tabloids maybe) claiming that the killer was driven by the old comment about bigger than Jesus. The (bogus) motivation was supposed to be because the killer sort of thought he himself was Lennon and thus had to kill the real Lennon once he had re-entered the public eye.

[Nixon]

I remember being very pleased when John became a fellow citizen.

I will always regret it though - as our country's never-ending affair with guns and violence took him away.

Far better for him and his family if he located in a tax haven like Spain or Ireland.

(Today? Tomorrow? Next week? Next Month? Kids under 10 will be bleeding from gunshot wounds somewhere in our land of the free.)

Yes,I was old enough to remember!He was killed 19 years ago!I'm 41.I was eating spaghetti on the couch,my dad was watching the football game,when Mr. Cosell announced it.
David B: where can I redeem those 2 points? And for what? ;)

[GirlFace]

I was walking into a tavern in the mountains when I heard the news. The Beatles were and are my favorite all-time band and I am forever bummed by that loss. I liked his ideology, but I don't think he was a huge influence on our culture. At least, not in the way Bob Dylan was. I think the music was what was important to Lennon, whereas I think the message was more important to Dylan (God knows ol' Bob could have used some divine intervention in the vocals department!). Regardless, when I think of the 60s, I always a picture of John Lennon in that montage.

[Anomaly22]

Nothing.
At least as far as I am concerned because I did not like Lennon, I'm not real crazy about Yoko and couldn't care less about his son. I liked the Beatles but together as a group and I saw that shot of a nude Lennon in bed with a covered Yoko and it kind of turned me off.

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

Dear Sake Samurai:
I'm not a big Beatles fan, but when you say John is as deep as Jim Morrison, you slander the man.
And the poor bastard isn't even alive to defend himself from your insult!

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The Coyote gnaws ....
but he does not swallow.

[pldennison]

astorian, the fact that John Lennon was all the things you say (and I'm not going to dispute that, although he was probably smarter than you give him credit for) certainly doesn't PRECLUDE him from having anything important to say. Hell, I remember this hokey B-movie actor who wasn't all that sharp and yet became President of the United States of America . . .

[Sake Samurai]

Hey, Peyote, it's just my opinion. But it's true.

I invite everyone to list in this thread the important, interesting things John Lennon said. I don't have an ax to grind here - I'm just curious, because everything I have heard has been good sentiment, but neither deep nor significant.

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Hell is Other People.

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

Okay, Sake Samurai:
I don't think much of Lennon's political ramblings. However, here are some of his songs I admire:
"Money" -- one of the most demonical singing performances any rock 'n' roller offered. A brilliant performance, but sadly they quit playing it on the radio.
"Julia"
"She Loves You"
Rubber Soul -- ANYTHING he does on this album is great. This was the Beatles' finest moment IMO.
"Happiness is a Warm Gun"
"Mind Games"
"I Am the Walrus" tho' I must admit I like this song for personal reasons that have nothing to do with its musical quality.
"She Said, She Said"
"Tomorrow Never Knows"
that long medley of songs on Abbey Road's second side. This was the Beatles third-finest moment, IMO; A Hard Day's Night is the second.

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The Coyote gnaws ....
but he does not swallow.

[jab1]

I, too, heard about John Lennon's death on Monday Night Football from Howard Cosell. Lennon was once a guest on MNF and they play a clip from his interview during the commercial breaks on MNF now.

December 8th is also my father's birthday.

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Fighting my own ignorance since 1957.

[corvidae]

Lennon certainly left a legacy of being a crappy father. Sean is one thing, but Julian? Did he ever give that kid the time of day?

[John Corrado]

Sake Samurai said:
I invite everyone to list in this thread the important, interesting things John Lennon said. I don't have an ax to grind here - I'm just curious, because everything I have heard has been good sentiment, but neither deep nor significant.


"Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans."


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JMCJ

"It's a damned simple mind that can only think of one way to spell a word."
-Andrew Jackson

[The Crimson Hipster Dufuz]

<< Hey, Peyote, it's just my opinion. But it's true. >>

Nah, I think Lennon was lots deeper than Morrison.

<< I invite everyone to list in this thread the important, interesting things John Lennon said. >>

"Give peace a chance."

Granted, he wasn't Winston Churchill, or Metternich or something, but I don't know if you can come up with a more influential musician, and I know I listen to a lot of music, so yeah, he obviously affected our lives in some important way. I don't think he ended segregation, no, or won World War I, but so? Are those the only sorts of influences or importances there are? It's also probably easy to overestimate his social activism, but it's there nonetheless, so...Hey, Nixon had him on the enemies list, so there you go.

<< I don't have an ax to grind here - I'm just curious, because everything I have heard has been good sentiment, but neither deep nor significant. >>

I think Lennon's impact on fashion, youth culture, and popular music are deep and signifigant.

And "I am the Walrus" is really figgin' cool.




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{\¶/}

jab! :Dec.8 is My dad's b-day too!
brother!

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

Dear The Crimson Hipster Dufuz:
I have to agree with you that Lennon was much deeper than Jim Morrison, but I think the average mud puddle was deeper than Morrison.
Can't agree with you about Lennon's influence as a musician, though.
Duke Ellington, Billie Holliday, Trane, Elvis Presley, Louis Armstrong, Muddy Waters, Lightnin' Hopkins, Louis Jordan and (my favorite) Jimi Hendrix are just a few of the musicians who were as influential or more so than Lennon.
And as for making Nixon's enemies list -- that wasn't the greatest feat in the world. Hell, 90 percent of this board would make the list were Tricky Dicky still in power.

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The Coyote gnaws ....
but he does not swallow.

[The Crimson Hipster Dufuz]

<< Dear The Crimson Hipster Dufuz:
I have to agree with you that Lennon was much deeper than Jim Morrison, but I think the average mud puddle was deeper than Morrison. >>

Mmmm. Across the universe is swell, it's worthy of Coleridge.

<< Can't agree with you about Lennon's influence as a musician, though.
Duke Ellington, Billie Holliday, Trane, Elvis Presley, Louis Armstrong, Muddy Waters, Lightnin' Hopkins, Louis Jordan and (my favorite) Jimi Hendrix are just a few of the musicians who were as influential or more so than Lennon. >>

I'll give you Armstrong, and Elvis, and let's say we split on Hendrix. I think you have to rate the others a little lower.




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[Jackamus]

I found his philosophy quite interesting, more so than his music, although the two are closely connected. You can read many of his ideas in THE PLAYBOY INTERVIEWS WITH JOHN LENNON AND YOKO ONO.

He did not wish to be looked up to as any kind of leader or guru. His song, "Imagine" just asks people to imagine what these things would be like. Open your mind to the possibilities.

I like his ideas, and after reading the book, developed a liking for Yoko. She is really quite a character and was a good match for John.

[astorian]

It's not insulting John Lennon to say he was no intellectual: he'd have been the first to agree. And it's not insulting him to say he wasn't a deep thinker or a profound spiritual guru- indeed, from what I know of Lennon, he'd have rolled his eyes and laughed at the idea of people looking to HIM for spiritual guidance.

Indeed, Lennon spent the last years of his life AVOIDING interaction with people who looked to him for inspiration. Toward the end of his life, he seems to have concluded that a simple happy home/family life was more important and more valuable than any of the trendy political or religious fads he'd embraced at one time or another. At the end of the day, he wanted to be a mere husband and dad, not the new Dalai Lama.

He SEEMED to have been happy at the end, and I'm glad. But do I miss him? No. I have no reason to miss him. I still have his music, and can play it whenever I want to. I can still watch "Hard Day's Night" and crack up at his bathtub/U-boat scene any time I like. Yoko and Sean miss him, of course, and they have a right to. I'll let THEM have their grief and their love. THEY can worry about his "legacy."

But for the rest of us? Just enjoy the one real "legacy" he left to all of us- his music. Lennon was a superb songwriter- just like Cole Porter, Richard Rodgers, George Gershwyn, Irving Berlin, Holland-Dozier-Holland, and Lieber-Stoller. But songwriters don't change the world! Lennon was no more or less important than MANY performers/writers I admire. Hey, I love P.G. Wodehouse, John Wayne, Roy Orbison, Fred Astaire and Rodney Dangerfield, but none of them "changed the world." Their "legacies" are the enjoyment they've given many of us. And that's a heck of a good legacy. It SHOULD be enough.

P.S. People keep citing "Imagine" as Lennon's masterpiece. Personally, I never much liked it. It's wimpy and saccharine- indeed, if Paul McCartney had written the same song, I GUARANTEE Lennon would have scoffed at it. I'd rather hear Lennon belt out "You Can't Do That" or "Hey Bulldog."

[Polycarp]

I think that perhaps the greatest legacy of the man was that moving from being a teeny-bopper-idol musician, of which there have been many before and since, he, with significant help from the other three, introduced to a rather straightlaced America and England a new, more open attitude. Most of where we are today socially stems from that change that occurred in the early to mid 1960s, and anyone who did not live through it as an older child, youth or adult has no conception of the attitude change that it entailed. There were many other causes; as a country we resembled a supersaturated solution. But by being popular and espousing the causes they did, the Beatles and John in particular crystallized that change.

[The Crimson Hipster Dufuz]

<< But songwriters don't change the world! >>

You know, unless you enjoy music.

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[PunditLisa]

I think of John Lennon in terms of how easily he was influenced by other people, versus how HE influenced others.

After he met Yoko Ono, he abandoned his wife and friends. And, most importantly, his 5 year old son. So when I read about his "love-ins", preaching about love and peace, I see a hypocrite.

He was a gifted man who lost his way.

[sunbear]

Toejam football
Everybody had a wet dream
Happiness is a warm gun
You know mynamelookup the number
Don't let me down
The Beatles are bigger than Jesus
Give pease a chance
Nobody told me

It's how you say it, the right intonation

[sunbear]

and how you spell it :o
peace, man

[JimStaudt]

John Lennon was a pot-smoking liberal socialist gasbag who was a fair songwriter and a lousy singer who cheated on his wife. His legacy will be only slightly more memorable than Bill Clinton's.

[ZeroCool]

im sorry that i can't boast a master's degree in 1980 ( was born a little later )
but i guess i am old enuf to know that Lennon kicks major ass. its too bad that the conservative slime that inhabit this country are too blind to see that. Lennon's message will have an impact forever, no matter what anybody says, because there will always be someone there listening.
i know that sounds like mushy bullshit, but it isn't.

-Stop the NRA Now-

[NightGirl44]

Oh PULLEEEZE!

Get over him! He never was all that anyhow and most of the people I know who consider him some sort of a 'guru' are stonies from way back, have been working at 7-11s and hamburger stands for the last 10 years or so to pay for their dope and walk around going 'fer real, man.'

I never liked Lennon. Never liked his looks, thought his philosophy sucked, and figured that all of those 'strange' pictures they took of him and his homely girl Yoko should have been hastily buried at the full of the moon, in an abandoned grave yard, under a huge rock with a 'danger! Radiation Hazard!' plaque hammered in place.

I thought his staying in bed protest was a waste of time and publicity and generally annoying to the public. Yoko is still a dipshit and I have seen many very pretty and cute oriental girls and she certainly is not one. Then again, John wasn't the most handsome man around either, nor of the Beatles. He looked like a long term crack addict.

Lennon fanatics remind me of 'Grateful Dead' followers -- much ado about nothing.

[tomndebb]

So. Your basic contention is that only pretty people should be allowed to display talent?

[ZeroCool]

hey nightgirl44- how superficial can one person possibly be? i mean, damn, u have entered a new level of shallowness.
have u ever actually listened Lennon solo?
how can a guy that wrote Give Peace A Chance be so bad?

[Sentinel]

Lennon wrote some cool songs, but so did about 50 other great artists of the time. Besides, had he not been a member of the Beatles, he never would have gotten anywhere anyhow.

I did not like him either, considered his fame over blown and was not pleased to suddenly see him with this huge, dreamy eyed, flower throwing, hanging on every word he uttered following spring up. I should not have been surprised at his death, but I was, because once people get that form of fame, there are always members of the splinter group of sanity drawn to them.

I also considered him homely and he had that form of thinness that I seem to find most with people on some form of illegal drugs and Yoko certainly is not what I would remotely consider even cute.

I do not care much for John Lennon's worldview/politics. If you followed his life you can see that he flip-flopped constantly, from Paul, to Yoko, to peace, to scream therapy, to political activism to being a "house husband." He had constantly shifting ideals and was constantly adopting and discarding different ideas (this is one of the things that makes Lennon such a fascinating character). However, when it comes to music, most people seem to forget what a powerhouse John Lennon was, especially in the early days of the Beatles. Lennon wrote and sang on the lion's share of Beatles songs in the early days (his drift into drugginess and apathy in allowed Paul the upper hand in the later years). But consider this: this guy wrote Help, Nowhere Man, Day Tripper, I Want to Hold Your Hand, Please Please Me, Baby's in Black, A Day in the Life, In My Life, I Am the Walrus, Because, Strawberry Fields Forever, A Hard Day's Night, Revolution and many, many other excellent songs. At the height of his ability (1962-1970, with the Beatles at his side) he was virtually unstoppable, and the yardstick that all other songwriters of the time (with the exception of Dylan) were measured by. So to answer the OP, it's the music, man, the music.

[Phaedrus]

"Inside the mahogany-paneled office of the Dakota apartment house in New York City, on one of the warmest December nights on record, Jay Hastings waited for John Lennon and Yoko Ono to come home. The burly bearded twenty-seven-year-old doorman had worked at the Dakota for more than two years. He'd always said that the best part of his job was getting to know John and Yoko, who owned five apartments in the building. Hastings had been a Beatles fan since he was a kid; he's even collected Fab Four picture cards. But now he was more than a fan. John Lennon knew him by name. Lennon would say, "bon soir, Jay," when he and Yoko came back from a night on the town or in the studio, and sometimes they'd joke around. Tonight, Hastings had a surprise: a red Plexiglas rain hat that an avant-garde clothes designer had dropped off for Yoko. He planned to ask them to guess what it was.
Hastings was reading a magazine shortly before 11 o'clock p.m., when he heard several shots outside the office, and then the sound of shattering glass. He stiffed. He heard someone coming up the office steps. John Lennon stumbled in, a horrible, confused look on his face. Yoko followed, screaming, "John's been shot. John's been shot." At first, Hastings thought it was a crazy joke. Lennon walked several steps, then collapsed on the floor, scattering the cassette tapes of his final session, which he's been holding in his hands.
Hastings triggered an alarm that summoned the police and he rushed to John's side. The anguished doorman gently removed Lennon's glasses, which seemed to be pushing in on his contorted face. He struggled out of his blue Dakota jacket and placed it over Lennon. Then he stripped off his tie to use as a tourniquet, but there was no place to put it. Blood streamed from Lennon's chest and mouth. His eyes were open but unfocused. He gurgled once, vomiting blood and fleshy material.
Yoko, frantic, screamed for a doctor and an ambulance. Hastings dialed 911 and asked for help. Then he returned to Lennon's side and said, "It's okay, John. You'll be all right."
The doorman stationed outside ran in and told Hastings the attacker had dropped his gun on the sidewalk. Hastings went after the gunman. It wasn't necessary. The pudgy young man who had shot Lennon was standing calmly on West Seventy-second Street, reading "The Catcher in the Rye".
Two squad cars screeched up and four cops jumped out, guns drawn. "Put up your hands!" they told Hastings, who was wild-eyed and covered with blood. "Not him," the other doorman shouted. "He works here." He pointed to the young man who had been reading. "He's the one." Two cops slammed the suspect against the Dakota's elegant stone facade. The other two policemen and Hastings ran into the building.
It was then, after seeing the splintered office window and the blood in the alley, that Hastings realized John Lennon had been dying in front of his eyes.
Against Yoko's wishes, police turned Lennon over to access his wounds. They said they couldn't wait for an ambulance and gingerly hoisted him off the floor. Hastings, gripped Lennon's left arm and shoulder blade, heard shattered bones crack as they moved him out the door. Lennon's body was limp; his arms and legs akimbo. They put him into a police car for the trip to Roosevelt hospital. Yoko climbed into a second cruiser. Hastings walked back to the building and waited in the office. Thirty minutes later, word reached the Dakota; John Winston Ono Lennon, forty-year-old husband and father was gone."

Taken from the book, "The Ballad of John and Yoko" published by the Editors of "Rolling Stone" magazine, 1982.

[Phaedrus]

Chief of Detectives, James T. Sullivan said, "Sometime shortly before eleven o'clock, John Lennon and his wife arrived back at the Dakota in a limousine. They parked the limousine outside the Dakota. There is a driveway, into which they might have gone, but on this occasion did not. They got out and walked into the archway area of the Dakota.... This individual, Mr. Chapman, came up behind them and called to him, "Mr. Lennon!" then, in a combat stance (down on one knee with one arm steadying the other) he fired. He emptied the Charter Arms .38-caliber gun that he had with him and shot John Lennon."

Dr. Lynn said, "John Lennon...(20 second pause) John Lennon, was brought to the emergency room of Roosevelt, the St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital, this evening shortly before eleven p.m. he was dead on arrival. Extensive resuscitative efforts were made, but in spite of transfusions and many procedures, he could not be resuscitated. He had multiple gunshot wounds in his chest, in his left arm and in his back. There were seven wounds in his body. I don't know exactly how many bullets there were. There was a significant injury of the major vessels inside the chest, which caused a massive amount of blood loss, which probably resulted in his death. I'm certain that he was dead at the moment that the first shots hit his body."

[Phaedrus]

My own day began as any normal day in 1980. That particular day I was riding with my father to a job site he was managing in Youngstown, Ohio. We were riding in his Saab, I was half-sleeping and he was listening to the radio. It was one of those mundane muzak stations during those days that NEVER reported the news. Just as we were pulling into the driveway the radio announced, " Former Beatles John Lennon was shot and killed outside his Manhattan apartment late last night...". I sat bolt upright in the car and felt the world turn inside out. We parked the car and for the first part of the morning I stumbled blindly around the job site thinking of John and all he meant to me. My mind began to reel backwards as I thought of Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy, John F. Kennedy and Mahatma Gandhi. Why? Why was a man of peace and love shot down in cold blood?

Later that day I hooked up with a group of migrant workers from Ireland. They were already talking about Lennon and I fell right in, they had nothing but good things to say about him. They liked it when he gave his medal back to the Queen and how he liked the Irish.

We drove home and pulled into the drive way and I got into my car to drive back to my house and found my mother had gone out that day and bought the single, "(Just like) Starting Over" and taped it to my steering wheel. I broke down and cried.

Later that evening after dinner I drove back out to my parent's house with my wife and watched Walter Cronkite on the evening news, they were showing the madhouse the Dakota was becoming and I saw a clip of a businessman in a smart suit and tie with a very expensive raincoat and attaché case standing nearby looking at the Dakota with tears streaming down his face. I didn't feel so alone. I heard that the news was reported in the Pravda and heard the various remarks made by leaders of governments around the world express their respect for John Lennon and I felt proud.

The following evening I went to the local newspaper shop and bought every newspaper that they had. All of them but the Wall Street journal had the story on the front page. I remember reading the New York Times story as I walked home. Snow was falling gently in big fluffy flakes that melted as they hit the story and to me they looked like large teardrops.... I thought, "God, can this be real?"

[Phaedrus]

Two other significant events that are directly related to John in my life are (1) when I went down to the Dakota to celebrate John and Sean's birthday in 1982. A bunch of us had assembled outside on the sidewalk in front of the Dakota across the street and sang Happy Birthday to Sean. Yoko heard us and opened the window and had some of Sean's Birthday cake and coffee sent down for us to have. I was in Heaven and (2) when I went to Strawberry Fields and met David Peel of "Sometime in New York" fame. He was a cohort of John's during the Jerry Rubin radical leftist days. David was the President of Orange Records and eventually invited me to come and live with him. I declined. I still have a personal letter that he wrote to me and a list of albums his company had for sale. It's dated, Feb. 18th, 1983.

I also have a personal photo of John and Yoko that a friend of mine in journalism took when she was visiting New York with her parents when she was 13, the fall before John was assassinated. It sets in my office on a bookshelf.

One of the things that I liked about him the most was his transparency, he allowed us to watch as he went through a variety of changes, changes in attitude about family, himself, and the world in which he lived. I loved it when he finally settled down and realized how important family is. It makes me wonder just how much more he would have shifted to the right as he matured even more.

[Phaedrus]

His ideology included some very fine thoughts, "Woman is the Nigger of the World, We're All Water, and Sunday Bloody Sunday" are great capsulizations of some very good thinking about the mess we're all in.

I watched Lennon evolve from a Mod Rocker to a Cultural Icon. There is a Swedish word, kulturbarer, which was what John was. He played the Pied Piper of Hamelin, and like the children my generation followed. Our government at that time was well aware of Lennon's ability to lead people. "Power to the People" kind of solidarity was NOT what Richard Milhous Nixon wanted to hear. He had John watched.

Music has the ability to move people as little else can. Plato recognized this and in his "perfect society" he outlined in "The Republic" he said he would have all of music controlled by those in power to insure against insurrection. He provided a list of the different Greek Modes and explained why some of them should never be played as they cause unrest in individuals. Whether you agree with his thinking or mot, music permeates our lives and IS used by those in power to produce effects on us. Nearly every country in the world has an anthem for nearly every political power knows the value of music when it comes to producing feelings in their populace. Every President that had a "theme song" in this country won his election. The only exception is when the opponent had one too. We use music to worship, to accompany the making of vows like marriage (this isn't just a Judeo-Christian heritage thing, the Native Americans used music for their wedding vows LONG before the White man came here) and to celebrate anything that is meaningful in our lives.

It was through this medium that John Lennon had power like no other during his life.

[Phaedrus]

"Now a global phenomenon of unprecedented influence, the Beatles were asked to represent Britain in "Our World" the FIRST WORLD-WIDE TELEVISION SPECIAL, for the occasion they composed, "All You Need is Love" and performed it with a sing-a-long chorus of friends and celebrities before an audience of 200 Million people!" From the video " The Compleat Beatles".

"I think Sargent Pepper... is the most distinctive event in pop's brief history and it marked the turning point when the Beatles stopped being a ritual dance music and became music to be listened to." Wilfred Mellers, Musicologist

"Attitude. Graphic Design. Language and the recording business itself changed radically after Sargent Pepper. The album had touched a nerve ending among the population and set the stage for a new era with its own style and perceptions." " The Compleat Beatles"

Those of you who dislike John or his music would find yourself at odds with the musicians that YOU DO like. Among musicians today, regardless of genre, John is respected. I am a classically trained musician myself (guitar and voice) though I also play and write Jazz, Rock, Pop, etc.

Brian Epstein (the Beatles first manager) and George Martin (producer and semi-composer of Beatles songs) were both affiliated with classical music. Epstein sold it and Martin was a classically trained musician.

[Phaedrus]

I equate the Beatles with John for many reasons. First, he was the undisputed leader of the group from its inception to its demise. That is why all the tunes that he and Paul "co-wrote" say, "Lennon/McCartney" instead of the other way around. John formed the "Quarry Men" and asked Paul to join. Paul brought in George and they changed the name to "Johnny and the Moondogs" (another proof of Lennon's leadership) then they were the "Silver Beetles" and finally "The Beatles". Ringo (Richard Starkey) joined after recording became a serious matter, George Martin was going to bring in a studio musician but "the boys" dumped Pete Best and asked Ringo to join.

As large as the Beatles were, and they were VERY LARGE! they weren't large enough to contain the genius of John Winston Ono Lennon. When he left the band was over. During the "Let it Be" sessions you see Paul try to run things and see how pitiful it was. Paul was great in his own way but he was no leader, at least not of the super talent that the Beatles had.

Would John have arrived at the fame and fortune he had without the help of others? No, probably not, but then nobody does. A smart leader will surround himself with others to aid him in his bid for greatness, which was what John did. Also luck helped.

Did John make mistakes? Yes, and that is what I also liked about him. He was human. Which shows how far any of us can go if we are determined and have a little luck.

Here are some links for those that wish to look at may enjoy:
http://members.aol.com/pop1rock1/JohnLennon/pictures.html
http://www.rajczyk.com/John_Lennon.html
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jon_wiener/

(FBI files)
http://www.searchlib.com/articles/JohnLennon_4520.htm
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Venue/6191/ijustshotjohnlennon.htm
http://hotbot.lycos.com/?MT=John+Lennon&SQ=1&Domain=P&BT=H&x=45&y=10

Which is where all the previous sites came from.

[Edited at Phaedrus' request to fix long link]

[Note: This message has been edited by David B]

[Note: This message has been edited by David B]

[Phaedrus]

Here are some quotes.

"Love means having to say you're sorry every five minutes."

"Love is the flower you've got to let grow."

"Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans."

"Love is a promise, love is a souvenir, once given never forgotten, never let it disappear."

"If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set, then there'd be peace."

"You can't cheat kids. If you cheat them when they're children they'll make you pay when they're sixteen or seventeen by revolting against you or hating you or all those so-called teenage problems. I think that's finally when they're old enough to stand up to you and say, 'What a hypocrite you've been all this time. You've never given me what I really wanted, which is you."

"If The Beatles or the 60's had a message, it was 'Learn to swim, and once you've learned-SWIM."

"I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the here and now? Reality leaves a lot to the imagination."

"I don't intend to be a performing flea anymore. I was the dreamweaver, but although I'll be around I don't intend to be running at 20,000 miles an hour trying to prove myself. I don't want to die at 40."

"Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat."

"The reason why kids are crazy is because nobody can face the responsibility of bringing them up."

"You make your own dream. That's the Beatles' story, isn't it? That's Yoko's story. That's what I'm saying now. Produce your own dream. If you want to save Peru, go save Peru. It's quite possible to do anything, but not to put it on the leaders and the parking meters. Don't expect Jimmy Carter or Ronald Reagan or John Lennon or Yoko Ono or Bob Dylan or Jesus Christ to come and do it for you. You have to do it yourself. That's what the great Masters and mistresses have been saying ever since time began. They can point the way, leave signposts and little instructions in various books that are now called holy and worshiped for the cover of the book and not for what it says, but the instructions are all there for all to see, have always been and always will be. There's nothing new under the sun. All the roads lead to Rome. And people cannot provide it for you. I can't wake you up. You can wake you up. I can't cure you. You can cure you."

[Phaedrus]

At the end of the day Lennon inspired a generation of people who became the movers and shakers of our present world. William Jefferson Clinton (whether you like him or not) got up on stage at his inauguration and played Saxophone with Fleetwood Mac ( A REAL moment in our History), that never would have happened without Johnny and the Moondogs. I feel sure if you were to ask our President about John he wouldn't have a bad thing to say about him. Many journalists today who do their fair share of spin doctoring were but some of the followers that Lennon and his ideology groomed. As Lennon influenced the leaders of this country his impact is made upon the world both culturally and politically.

Do I idolize the man? Yes, in some respects I do even though I am sure he wouldn't have wanted that. I carried some of his ideology into political office when I served my term and I was aware of it at the time. I don't see anything wrong with having a hero or two. God knows our country needs them now. I am not an ideological clone of John's, we differ in our solutions but not very much as to the diagnosis of the problems. And even though there are some songs of his I don't like and even though I would try to fix the world in a different way, I cannot but help to see his influence and recognize his genius.

" I am left with the one thing I wanted not to say, because it's so old and so fucking funereal: We are better people because of John Lennon. And now, when we need to be better still, and braver, with a deeper, more encompassing vision, losing him is terrifying. It cuts so deeply. It's hard to believe our luck has gotten this bad." Scott Spencer

"And so Happy Christmas for black and for white, the yellow and red ones, let's stop all the fight.

A very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, let's hope it's a good one without any fear."

John Lennon

All you need is love
......(love is all you need)
Love is all you need
......(love is all you need)
Love is all you need
......(love is all you need)
Love is all you need
......(love is all you need)
Love is all you need
......(love is all you need)
Love is all you need
......(love is all you need)
Love is all you need
......(love is all you need)
Love is all you need
......(love is all you need)
Love is all you need
......(love is all you need)


Phaedrus



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For what a man had rather were true he more readily believes.

[Phaedrus]

Two favors to ask: One, I need the moderator of this thread to fix the screw up that I inadvertently caused and two, would someone please post a picture of John for this thread? I am just a little computer inept and don't know how to do it. One of the links I proved has a slew of good shots but ANY shot of John would do. Even if you don't like me, I ask this for John, please?

Happy Christmas,

Phaedrus

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For what a man had rather were true he more readily believes.

[Phaedrus]

"Inside the mahogany-paneled office of the Dakota apartment house in New York City, on one of the warmest December nights on record, Jay Hastings waited for John Lennon and Yoko Ono to come home. The burly bearded twenty-seven-year-old doorman had worked at the Dakota for more than two years. He'd always said that the best part of his job was getting to know John and Yoko, who owned five apartments in the building. Hastings had been a Beatles fan since he was a kid; he's even collected Fab Four picture cards. But now he was more than a fan. John Lennon knew him by name. Lennon would say, "bon soir, Jay," when he and Yoko came back from a night on the town or in the studio, and sometimes they'd joke around. Tonight, Hastings had a surprise: a red Plexiglas rain hat that an avant-garde clothes designer had dropped off for Yoko. He planned to ask them to guess what it was.
Hastings was reading a magazine shortly before 11 o'clock p.m., when he heard several shots outside the office, and then the sound of shattering glass. He stiffed. He heard someone coming up the office steps. John Lennon stumbled in, a horrible, confused look on his face. Yoko followed, screaming, "John's been shot. John's been shot." At first, Hastings thought it was a crazy joke. Lennon walked several steps, then collapsed on the floor, scattering the cassette tapes of his final session, which he's been holding in his hands.
Hastings triggered an alarm that summoned the police and he rushed to John's side. The anguished doorman gently removed Lennon's glasses, which seemed to be pushing in on his contorted face. He struggled out of his blue Dakota jacket and placed it over Lennon. Then he stripped off his tie to use as a tourniquet, but there was no place to put it. Blood streamed from Lennon's chest and mouth. His eyes were open but unfocused. He gurgled once, vomiting blood and fleshy material.
Yoko, frantic, screamed for a doctor and an ambulance. Hastings dialed 911 and asked for help. Then he returned to Lennon's side and said, "It's okay, John. You'll be all right."
The doorman stationed outside ran in and told Hastings the attacker had dropped his gun on the sidewalk. Hastings went after the gunman. It wasn't necessary. The pudgy young man who had shot Lennon was standing calmly on West Seventy-second Street, reading "The Catcher in the Rye".
Two squad cars screeched up and four cops jumped out, guns drawn. "Put up your hands!" they told Hastings, who was wild-eyed and covered with blood. "Not him," the other doorman shouted. "He works here." He pointed to the young man who had been reading. "He's the one." Two cops slammed the suspect against the Dakota's elegant stone facade. The other two policemen and Hastings ran into the building.
It was then, after seeing the splintered office window and the blood in the alley, that Hastings realized John Lennon had been dying in front of his eyes.
Against Yoko's wishes, police turned Lennon over to access his wounds. They said they couldn't wait for an ambulance and gingerly hoisted him off the floor. Hastings, gripped Lennon's left arm and shoulder blade, heard shattered bones crack as they moved him out the door. Lennon's body was limp; his arms and legs akimbo. They put him into a police car for the trip to Roosevelt hospital. Yoko climbed into a second cruiser. Hastings walked back to the building and waited in the office. Thirty minutes later, word reached the Dakota; John Winston Ono Lennon, forty-year-old husband and father was gone."

Taken from the book, "The Ballad of John and Yoko" published by the Editors of "Rolling Stone" magazine, 1982.

[Phaedrus]

David B: Thank you for fixing the link. Is there anything that can fix the screen? It stills run way off to the right side. If I enlarge my screen I can read it but I would like this thread to have the same status in readability as the others.

Can you fix that as well?

Thank you again,

Phaedrus

[David B]

There ya go.

------

David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator

[PunditLisa]

John Lennon Ono Lennon? Aw geez, I don't know whether to be impressed or to roll my eyes...

[Phaedrus]

PunditLisa: John was an avid feminist.
Something I think most men could learn a
thing or two.

When he and Yoko got married,
he changed his name to

John Winston Ono Lennon.

Does this screen look messed up to you?


Phaedrus

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For what a man had rather were true he more readily believes.

[David B]

The only way to fix that is to shorten the topic title. That is what's causing it to go off to the right, even though the text of the messages stay properly on the screen.

If you want me to shorten it, I can. You created the thread, so tell me what you want it to be.
------
David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator

[Phaedrus]

How about, "John Lennon's Legacy..."

Thank you again!

Phaedrus

[pldennison]

First, he was the undisputed leader of the group from its inception to
its demise. That is why all the tunes that he and Paul "co-wrote" say, "Lennon/McCartney" instead of the other way
around.

You haven't looked at the early Vee Jay singles or the "Wings Over America" credits lately, have you?

------------------
"It's my considered opinion you're all a bunch of sissies!"--Paul's Grandfather

[Phaedrus]

I know about the Vee Jay singles, I feel they
were corporate decisions.
I didn't know about the "Wings Over America".

I'll check it out.

I am curious about one thing though.

Paul sang a song in which he said,

"I love you, Johnny" it was a tribute to Lennon.

I heard it at one of the vigils.

But I have never found it for sale.

I wonder if it was ever available.


Phaedrus

------------------
For what a man had rather were true he more readily believes.

[Phaedrus]

Just a post to keep this thread in the loop.

After all, its for John...

[Phaedrus]

"Happiness is a warm gun."

John Lennon

Not to be disrespectful, but I don't think it
is/was.

[Phaedrus]

I heard George Harrison and wept, the nuts

are everywhere it seems. Very Sad :(

[Phaedrus]

Has anyone heard how George is?

[Phaedrus]

Anybody?

[FORMERAGENT]

Phaedrus, I resign my position here... i am the laughing stock of the internet people... though none of them can handle life outside this "bubble", i cede to them, and leave.

Perhaps some genetically made, internet borne virus, will remove them, like the weeker spawn they are.

Mike

[Phaedrus]

:(

[Phaedrus]

Maybe some are too young to remember
George Harrison.

[Phaedrus]

I just wanted to bump this back to the top again.
Still looking for responses to Harrison's near miss.

[ZeroCool]

ive heard that George is gonna be fine. i also heard that if the blade had been an inch to the left, it would be all over.

this brings up an interesting point-
who will be the next Beatle to go?

if any one of them deserves it, methinks it's Paul. that sell-out SOB makes me ill.

hey- do u think that if John were still alive at this point, would he have sold out? i hope not.



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Question Authority