Where does the term "86" come from?

[Paul.Streeter]

I wonder if the telegraphers' codes were involved, perhaps by soda jerks picking up on them as CB-ers picked up and mutilated the ten codes, (10-4 for yes, etc) . Ham radio operators still use "73" for "best regards" at the end of a QSO (conversation). Actually, we usually misuse it by saying "seventy threes" in a voice conversation. Since 73 is already plural, making it pkural makes it come out "Best Regardses." "30" stands for "end of transmission" or "end of story" and "88" means "love and kisses." Perhaps 87½ came from that.

[aerodave]

Link to Cecil's column: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_291b.html

[breifing]

It is true as Cecil suggests that the term came about in the '20s, but the reason is actually becuase of a speak-easy on 86 Bedford Street in New York's west village called Chumley's. Legend has it that when the police would raid the popular night spot, the bartenders would yell "86 it" which ment cut out. To this day, the only identifying markings are the bronze numbers 86 on the door.

[Musicat]

breifing, either give us a cite (if you're serious) or a smiley (if you're kidding). :)

[erosen1]

From my days as a bartender, I learned that the term "to be 86'd" refers back to the days of the old west. At that time most of the booze was 100 proof. If a customer was obviously too intoxicated to handle this, a special bottle of 86 proof (actually the current level of alcohol in todays liquors) was poured from hence the term of being "86'd"

[breifing]

The "cite" is word of mouth, and many beers sitting at the bar, but a quick google search found www.foodreference.com/html/art86.html

[samclem]

The '86' term doesn't go back to the Old West. How one can think that an alcoholic beverage which is 14% lower in alcoholic content will be something that will keep the customer from becoming more intoxicated is just too funny.

briefing. Welcome. The Chumley's explanation is entertaining, but wrong.

[samclem]

I should have offered what I posted in an earlier thread about Chumley's

Read Michael Quinion's column:http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-eig1.htm

[foolsguinea]

Sounds like rhyming slang to me. '86' rhymes with 'Nix'. Period.

Leave it to a bunch of sepos* to be confused.

*"Septic tank" rhymes with "Yank".

[whitetho]

The numeric telegraph codes that Paul.Streeter refers to appear to date back to the "92 Code" adopted by Western Union in the late 1850s. However, this code either skipped some numbers, or a few quickly dropped out of general use, because none of the reviews I've seen include any meaning for "86". A two-page summary of the history of these codes is located at the Morse Telegraph Club Information Booth (http://members.tripod.com/morse_telegraph_club/informat.htm) site -- see the "Western Union 92 code and railway manual block codes" entries for more details.

[rthendrix]

I, too, heard the Chumley's story from a long-time denizen (who's tenure didn't go back to Prohibition, unfortunately). There are indeed a number of exits to Chumley's, some hidden behind bookcases affixed to hinges. And one entrance/exit is at 86 Bedford.

I would like to provide a cite, but have not found one yet. However, other than the fact that six rymes with nix, I don't see any other adequately documented explanations, including Cecil's.

Use of the term prior to the onset of Prhoibition in 1920 would eliminate the Chumley's explanation, but I have not seen any documentation of such.

I can't believe Cecil missed the opportunity to cover Chumley's. The place is famous for, among other things, providing a pass-out room upstairs for Hemmingway and for hosting F. Scott Fitzgerald who, allegedly, consummated his desire for a woman other than his wife in one of the booths.

[danceswithcats]

Another read on the 86 Bedford Street speak-easy. A program on the History Channel spoke of this famous address, and the fall away shelves which could be tripped by a bartender to make all of the demon rum go down the drain as the the Untouchables busted down the door. Booze? What booze? :D

[BoloJungle]

It's Chumley's in NYC. It was a term used during prohibition (as reported on the History Channel) and has long been a part of the Chumley's history. Stop by for a drink (if you can find it) - it is still much the same today as it was then.

[samclem]

It's Chumley's in NYC. It was a term used during prohibition (as reported on the History Channel)

And the History Channel knows it was in use during prohibition HOW?

[jehovah68]

This is a question that I've wondered about for many years (having worked in restaurants for the last 20 years). I heard the Chumley's story about five years ago and took it as a plausible explanation (great place to go to for a pint). It is, however, an oral tradition, so there will always be conjecture as to its true origin.

[SBWittox]

I was once told by a Chef that there originally were 85 different cuts of beef from cattle. 86 is a term used in the kitchen to mean there are no more left. (No more cuts left). Sounded reasonable to me.

[wdhyte]

From a buddy of mine that is an amateur 'historian' of sorts...merely another melody on a theme...
""86'd " is a term that originated in California sometime in the '50's. Something like the California Alcohol Control Board (or whatever it was) Article 86 stated that bartenders had the responsibility to refuse to serve alcohol to anyone who appeared to be inebriated. Therefore, if you happened to have had a snootful, and the bartender was aware of it, you could be "86'd").

So, who knows eh?!

[samclem]

Originally posted by wdhyte
From a buddy of mine that is an amateur 'historian' of sorts...merely another melody on a theme...
""86'd " is a term that originated in California sometime in the '50's. Something like the California Alcohol Control Board (or whatever it was) Article 86 stated that bartenders had the responsibility to refuse to serve alcohol to anyone who appeared to be inebriated. Therefore, if you happened to have had a snootful, and the bartender was aware of it, you could be "86'd").

So, who knows eh?!
Well, anyone who's read this thread and Cecil's article knows that the term existed before the 1950's in California. So that's just plain out.

[BarkingDog]

Any possibility that the term might be related to Article 86—Absence without leave from the military? This has been suggested by a local reporter and it does have some resonance. Thoughts?

[jimbo_jones]

It's obvious its Maxwell Smarts code name from Get Smart.

Which is 86.

am I right or am I right?

Jimbo

[rezwar]

welly, welly, well, well dear dopers?( from a clockwork orange)
ok, where i live there is a lot of use for this term; "86'd", got(get) 86'd, etc. I.E> yeah, i got 86'd last night from my old laddy.<
the 86 we talk of here is the one two lane blacktop road that runs for about 120 miles through our lands. you cant miss it, one road, its the only road or at least the only main paved road, since 1910, for 120 miles, running east to west. its even called highway 86. So, here at least, it means 'hitting the highway' or 'getting the boot', being told to leave, exit, be barred from returning, etc,etc. hope this helps.

[rezwar]

ok you can look at a map of arizona if you need too

[samclem]

rezwar. Your highway 86(The old road to Cochise) wasn't paved until WWII or later. And it wasn't called highway 86 until then. So it's doubtful that Californians, who probably authored the term "86" sometime in the 1920's picked it up from your road.

[rezwar]

SAMCLEM--- i suspect you are correct. but ' old road to COchise'? that isn't anywhere near here. this was an old cattle drive trail, that we used to have a drive to Tucson( to the rail road stockyard , to send our range beef , on the Union Pacific RR.) so it surely reached CA. the miners at the time also used it to haul ore from the mines in Ajo, Az. old 'boom towns' here in our local area also used it. there would have been alot of californian miners here in our area, (southern arizona, south of Phoenix, west of Tucson, east of Yuma, the newly acquired Gadsen Purchase of 1853). .........................perhaps 86 was a mining reference??

[samclem]

rezwar I'm starting to like you. You seem to be reasonable.

I think that if you were to go back to the 1900-1940 period, you would find that the "road to Cochise" might just be your rt 86. Not hard to believe. What is is--100+ miles? The name might have originated 100-200 years ago.

There's absolutely NO evidence that "86" is a mining reference.

But we are always looking for cites that extend our point of view.

[jehovah68]

Originally posted by samclem
The Chumley's explanation is entertaining, but wrong.
How can you be so certain? There seems to be no clear cut answer.
From your cite:
...it does seem that eighty-six was first used in restaurants and bars, either in the late 1920's or early 1930's; the first firmly attested source is in the journal American Speech for February 1936; another example **may** be from the mid 1920's - **the date is uncertain** - which would rule out Chumley's, as it didn't open until 1927.
If it may be from the mid 1920's, then doesn't it stand to reason that it also may not be from the mid 1920's?
By no means am I saying that the Chumley's explanation is true, I'm simply saying that it might be.

[samclem]

jehova68. You're correct. I should have only said that the Chumley's explanation is not likely to be correct. If anyone reading this knows WHEN the Chumley's theory first was proposed, I'd love to know. MY own suspicion is that it is rather a recent thing. Last 20-30 years or so. I'm not aware of any proof about the Chumley's claim.

There is a book, written in 1943, which contains the following:

There was a bar in the Belasco building...but Barrymore was known in that cubby as an "eight-six." An "eighty-six" in the patois of western dispensers means, "Don't serve him!"
This lends some credence to the expression originating in California. And the book was referring to the 1920's.

The fact that we've only found the term "86" used as a verb from 1955 tends to suggest that they didn't say "86 the booze" at Chumley's in the late 1920's. They could have, but it's not likely.

The coincidence of Chumley's having an address of '86' is most likely just that--coincidence.

[whitetho]

Originally posted by whitetho
However, this code either skipped some numbers, or a few quickly dropped out of general use, because none of the reviews I've seen include any meaning for "86". I have subsequetly found one reference to "86" as a telegraph code, although there doesn't appear to be any link between this example and the later usage for "nix". In the 1910 edition of "Electricity Applied to Railways", by Marshall M. Kirkland, a list of "Abbreviations in Railway Telegraphy" lists 86 as standing for "Division Superintendent or Superintendent of Telegraph".

[adirondack_mike]

This is what we do know about 86 -

The first citations are from the 1930's and were used at lunch counters. The meanings are 1) out of an item, 2) glass of water, and 3) a person who is not to be served. In addition to 86 there are many other number codes as I mentioned earlier in the post. Without citation 86 is listed under rhyming slang in the Dictionary of American Slang. (cite: Dictionary of American Slang, 1960; The American Language, Supplement 2, 1948.)

IMO any explanation on where 86 comes from needs to start with lunch counter usage and work backwards. If it was a radio term how did it make the transission. If it was from some fancy shmancy steak joint how did it end up popular at plain old ordinary lunch counters. Are the other number codes a result of 86 are evolved with it. Explain how it came into popular usage at lunch counters in the 1930's.

I propose three hypotheses -

1) Slang from the 1920's - the generation that brought us 23 skidoo and the bee's knees. Nix rhymes with six "Nix that order", or already exists in a phrase t "deep six." Eighty-six just happens to sound a little bit better.

2) Railroad or Hobo usage - IIRC early diners were old railcars set up on sidings (Hardys got started this way). Since these establishments were prob. frequented by people associated w/ railroads perhaps the term is an old railroad term.

3) As I mentioned previousely an americanized french phrase from returning WWI troops - Unlikely, since I can't find any military slang references which would seem unlikely.