Logistical Problems with Harry Potter (Spoilers)

[bup]

Spoilers galore:

So I've read the first four books, and while they're real page-turners, and overall great, fun, engrossing books, I have some issues:

1) How many wizards are there? Hogwarts feels small, and every adult in the books seems to know each other, and be "high up" in the wizarding world, but at the Quiddich World Cup there were 100,000 wizards! Speaking of which...

2) Quiddich is dumb - just poorly conceived. Matches that last days? HOW? Catching the Snitch when your team is behind? WHY?

3) What's Voldemort's goal? He seems to only be after controlling all of England's wizards. He has about 12 supporters that come running when he snaps. This parallels the problem in point 1. How much can he really control? Is he after the world, or just the EU, or what?

4) In book 4, Barty Crouch Jr. made the TriWizard Tournament a Portkey. Why didn't he just make Harry Potter's, I don't know, toothbrush? a portkey? The end.

What stuff bugs you about the Harry Potter books?

[Oreo]

Okay, I'll give these a shot. Trust me, these are questions that have been brought up and hashed over about a million times in the fandom. There's no real answers, but here's what the fans have speculated:

1. Yeah, okay...Jo Rowling isn't the best with numbers. She has stated in interviews that about 1000 students attend Hogwarts, which makes no sense when you consider that there are only 8 students in Harry's year in Gryffindor. If you push this up to an average of 10 students per House per year, you still only get a total of 280. Possible explanations:
a.) Harry isn't the most observant chap. Maybe there are other Gryffindors in other dorms that we just don't get to meet because Harry doesn't know them.
b.) Maybe Harry's class and the classes above him are unusually small. Maybe a lot of children were killed in Voldie War I, or maybe people stopped having kids out of fear. Is there a baby boom in the classes below Harry, maybe?
c.) Could be that Gryffindor is an "exclusive" house...hard to get into. Maybe Hufflepuff has tons of students to make up for the missing numbers.

2. Why would someone catch the snitch if they'll lose? Well, we have two examples of this happening in the books: In GOF, Victor Krum catches the snitch in the Quidditch World Cup because he knows the Ireland Chasers are way too good...his team will never catch up. As one of the characters says, he wanted to end it on his own terms. He wanted to keep it from being a total blowout. The second time it happens is in Book 5, so I'll spoiler box it for you (this reveals a major plot point, so beware!):

Ginny Weasley catches the snitch to end the game against Hufflepuff. In this case, again, the team in question was losing miserably. Harry, Fred & George have been kicked off the team, Ron the new Keeper is suffering from the I'm-Not-Good-Enoughs and the Beaters were atrocious. Ginny took the snitch when she could, to keep the points as close as possible. In this case, it really does make a difference since the winner of the Quidditch Cup is determined by who has the most overall total points at the end of the season.

So there are (rare) occasions when it makes sense to catch the Snitch early. As to Quidditch just being dumb in general? *shrug* Maybe. I don't really care. It's still fun to read about, especially with Lee Jordan commentating. That's going to be a sorely missed feature in Book 6!

3. Well, I believe Voldemort's ultimate goal is to rid the (entire) world of muggle-borns and destroy or at least enslave all Muggles. Simple as that. Right now, though, his main goal in life is to destroy Harry Potter. Once that's done, he'll focus on the technicalities of world domination. After all, he also wants to be immortal, so he's got all the time he'll ever need to conquer first England, then Europe, etc.

4. Again, no explanation given in the books, but we can guess. Portkeys are regulated (we find this out in Order of the Phoenix). Hogwarts has uber-security. (No apparition, etc.) If Crouch!Moody had created an unauthorized Portkey before the Fourth Task, it would have been detected.

Gah. I really need to get out more, but I'm simply addicted to Harry Potter. I highly recommend Book Five. It's very dark, and I was depressed for about a week after reading it, but IMHO it's the best of the bunch so far. Anybody else think these are no longer children's books?

[ITR champion]

Well, of course, the real answer is that Rowling didn't have all the details of magic worked out right at the start of the series, so the details don't add up. There are plenty of occasions where new magic tricks are introduced without any explanation as to why they weren't used before. For instance, in Sorcerer's Stone, once Dumbledore realizes that he was tricked into leaving Hogwarts, why doesn't he use a portkey or floo powder to return immediately and stop Voldermort from even getting close to the stone? (And even if portkeys are regulated, surely Dumbledore would be allowed to have one.)

[Yookeroo]

Quidditch is seriously broken. Very poorly designed.

[Gmork]

Well Oreo answered most questions pretty well so i'll add just a few things.

I have to pass on the 'how many Wizards' question. Roughly 1000, divided by the number of houses (4) gives us roughly 250 kids per house. 250 divided by the number of different years or grades(7), leaves roughly 36 (rounded up) kids per year in each house. If that is the case, Harry certainly isn't noticing everyone around him. Also, there is only one Gryffindor dorm. 250 kids in the one dorm, how does Harry avoid these people?

As regards the Portkey - Crouch Jr. was disguised as Moody, Moody seemed trusted by Dumbledore - so therefore he probably had some kind of access to the TriWizard Tournament cup - I doubt he would have been able to come up with a reasonable excuse that would give him equal access to Potter's toothbrush, or other personal items that he would be likely to touch.

As for Quidditch matches lasting for days, ever heard of Test Cricket? A test match is 5 days long.

I don't think Quidditch is in any way more or less silly than any 'real' sports that humans have invented. When you examine most sports there are always a few rules or concepts that stand out as slightly stupid or meaningless - but that's because, like Quidditch, they're games. They're for fun - not for close examination and analysis.

ITR Champion - No offense intended, but I believe Rowling has stated several times that she had pretty much the whole plot and the world the plot happens in worked out before she even put pen to paper. Good question about Dumbledore and the Portkey though, I'd like someone to explain that.

BTW, what does the ITR stand for?


One thing that bugs me - and I wish I could remember which book this is in - is that there's a narrative line (I quote roughly):

"...Harry quickly picked up the Invisibilty Cloak and shoved it in his pocket...."

What? That thing is huge. I think if Harry had a pocket big enough to fit that in, it would have been something worth alerting the reader of.

I'll try and find a page reference for you. And a more accurate quote.

[pulykamell]

No. Quidditch is just plain stupid. Like the stories, but the game's scoring system is illogical to the extreme.

[Short Guy]

Originally posted by pulykamell
No. Quidditch is just plain stupid. Like the stories, but the game's scoring system is illogical to the extreme.

You mean, like tennis?

[Shortie]

I presume that school Quidditch is slightly different to a professional game, in that the Snitch is a lot easier to catch. Thus normally there's plenty of time for the scores to be that far apart. In practice of course you've got to wonder why any team which doesn't have Harry Potter bothers turning up, but hey. (my issue is that he's allowed to have an international-quality broom, kinda harsh that).

I do like the baby boom theory, although we really should have had that mentioned in Book 3 or 4 with a huge class of First years. Alternatively, maybe Hogwarts is too expensive for most kids, and they're home-schooled or go to tutors or small schools or whatever. The idea of Harry just not noticing the hundreds of other Gryffindors did amuse me though.

Voldie seems to have major influence all over Europe, and presumably the dozen or so Death Eaters we've met are those both important enough to be contacted and powerful\cunning enough to avoid prison. Remember that they could use Imperio on people to effectively increase their numbers.

[Stratocaster]

I very much enjoyed the books, but the question that always bugged me is this: How can there be "poor" wizards? And by poor, I mean Weasley poor--i.e., shabby clothing, hand-me-downs, second-hand books, cracked dishes, etc.

IOW, why wouldn't everything be magically turned into first-rate, shining stuff? I'm not sure what use there is for money at all, considering the whole wizard universe.

Again, I enjoyed the books, and I don't really mind if well-told stories have somewhat illogical givens. Perhaps there is an explanation?

[Jennyrosity]

Regarding question 4: Voldemort, like all super-villans, has a penchant for the dramatic. It is much more dramatic to have Harry disapeer at the end of the tournament, while surrounded by powerful wizards from all over Europe, than it is to have him disapeer while cleaning his teeth. It's a bit like the whole discussion between Dr Evil and Scott Evil in Austin Powers: So you're going to leave him alone with a couple of dumb henchman to guard him, while he's about to be killed in a very slow and overly-complicated way? Why don't you just shoot him? I have a gun, I'll go get it now." I know that's not the right quote, but you get the general gist.

[SkeptiJess]

As for the number of students in the school -- I'm not big on numbers myself, so I never sweated that much. However, in the last book the point was reiterated that the bravest students go to Gryffindor, the smartest to Ravenclaw, the most cunning to Slytherin and the rest to Hufflepuff. So that bears out the idea that the majority of students are Hufflepuffs.

There are non-English Death Eaters -- the foreign professor in Goblet of Fire of one. Also, Voldemort spent time in Europe during his exile. The other European magic schools are said to be very secretive about their location, though. So the fact that there isn't much interaction between witches of different nationalities doesn't seem unrealistic.

Quiddich does seem kind of dumb rules-wise. But that's true of most sports so far as I'm concerned.

One thing I do wonder -- are there witches in America? in Asia? Middle Eastern witches (who fly using carpets instead of brooms) are mentioned in the first book, but I don't recall any American or Asian witches being mentioned.

Anyway, these are school books to a large degree and school books tend to be rather narrow in scope -- they're about the school and what goes on in the school. The younger the students, the more narrow the scope. However, in the last two books (as Harry and crew get older), the focus has widened. I expect we'll get an even better look at the "whole world" of wizardry in the final two books.

[Shalmanese]

American witches are mentioned living in Salem.

[Odesio]

I don't like Quiddich either because the rules don't see to make any real sense.

Marc

[Fiver]

Jess, Dean Thomas is an American. We may presume Cho Chung is Chinese, at least ethnically, and the Patil twins are South Asian, at least ethnically. So I think we can assume the wizarding world is global.

Something that continues to annoy me about Order of the Phoenix is the battle in the Ministry at the end, specifically when Neville and Harry paralyzed two of the Death Eaters and then left the room...without taking their wands!

Later on, after those same two Death Eaters (I forget which two) had been revived by their friends, they were able to rejoin the fight, which they couldn't have if Neville and Harry had just taken their freaking wands.

Neville's own wand had been broken by that point in the story, so there were even two reasons why that would've been a good idea. But it seems not to have even occured to J.K. or the boys.

[Lsura]

Originally posted by Shalmanese
American witches are mentioned living in Salem.


Yep, it's at the beginning of GoF, when H, R, & H are going to get water. There were apparently some American witches with a banner for "The Salem Witches Institute".

[Jennyrosity]

Originally posted by Fiver
Jess, Dean Thomas is an American.

What? No he isn't! What gave you that idea?

[Gmork]

50 points to Short Guy's house for the tennis quip.

Jess - I believe we meant to think there are wizards and witches everywhere. The, er, 'companions' (is that what you'd call them?) to the HP series, ie 'Fantastic Beasts & Where To Find Them' & 'Quidditch Through The Ages' - also penned by Rowling, descrbe Magical Folk, Magical Creatures & Quidditch teams from all over the world.

[Gmork]

Since when is Dead Thomas American?

[Gmork]

Since when is Dean Thomas American?

lol, dead Thomas. I'm officially an idiot. The 'd' key isn't even near the 'n' key!

[Fretful Porpentine]

What really bugs me about the size of Hogwarts is that it makes no sense from a teaching perspective. We know there are four houses and seven years, and we never see students from more than two houses at most having classes together. Furthermore, until the latest round of problems with Divination, there seems to have been only one teacher for each subject. That means many of the teachers have at least fourteen separate classes to prep for, and if there really are a thousand students, the grading would be flat-out impossible! Do they all have their own personal time-turners?

OK, we know some of them have a few shortcuts up their sleeves (Professor Binns apparently grades by the inch, and he probably doesn't need to eat or sleep either), but I can't see a dedicated teacher like McGonagall or Lupin putting up with such a schedule, or a decent headmaster making them do so.

Don't get me wrong, I love the books, and one of the things I love most about them is that they're as much about the art of teaching as the craft of magic, but this strikes me as a glaring oversight on JKR's part (especially when she gets so much else about teaching right :) ).

[Wolfian]

Originally posted by Jennyrosity
Regarding question 4: Voldemort, like all super-villans, has a penchant for the dramatic. It is much more dramatic to have Harry disapeer at the end of the tournament, while surrounded by powerful wizards from all over Europe, than it is to have him disapeer while cleaning his teeth. It's a bit like the whole discussion between Dr Evil and Scott Evil in Austin Powers: So you're going to leave him alone with a couple of dumb henchman to guard him, while he's about to be killed in a very slow and overly-complicated way? Why don't you just shoot him? I have a gun, I'll go get it now." I know that's not the right quote, but you get the general gist.

Great. Now I have an image of Luicus Malfoy and Voldemort in the cementary at the end of Book IV.

Malfoy: My lord. I can understand wanting to duel him, but there over a dozen of us here. We'll just point our wands and BOOM!
Voldemort: (in the Dr. Evil voice) You know, Malfoy, you just don't get it.

[Oreo]

Originally posted by Gmork
One thing that bugs me - and I wish I could remember which book this is in - is that there's a narrative line (I quote roughly):

"...Harry quickly picked up the Invisibilty Cloak and shoved it in his pocket...."

What? That thing is huge. I think if Harry had a pocket big enough to fit that in, it would have been something worth alerting the reader of.

I'll try and find a page reference for you. And a more accurate quote.

I believe it's at the end of the Shrieking Shack scene in Prisoner of Azkaban, and it's Lupin who puts the cloak in his pocket. I have a theory on this one, too.

Remember in the first book, how Harry & Hermione covered themselves and a dragon! with the invisiblity cloak? Just how big is that thing, anyway? And then we're supposed to believe it's small enough to fit in a pocket? Also, wouldn't Harry be tripping all over that thing when he takes it out for a solo midnight jaunt through the castle?

I think the invisibility cloak is like the Weasley's Ford Anglia, or the tents from the Quidditch World Cup. It shrinks or expands to fit the user's need. Simple!

Dead Thomas

LOL! Well, if Ron's reaction after Ginny's little revelation at the end of OotP is any indication, he might indeed be dead very soon! (And Dean is definitely British, not American.)

[Fiver]

Well, that's another error in the books, then! Rowling forgot to make Dean Thomas American!

(Seriously, I could have sworn that they said Dean was American in Philosopher's Stone. Maybe it was another of the first-years. Or my imagination.)

[smiling bandit]

I very much enjoyed the books, but the question that always bugged me is this: How can there be "poor" wizards? And by poor, I mean Weasley poor--i.e., shabby clothing, hand-me-downs, second-hand books, cracked dishes, etc.

IOW, why wouldn't everything be magically turned into first-rate, shining stuff? I'm not sure what use there is for money at all, considering the whole wizard universe.

Its patently obvious that all wizards cannot simply make everything they want appear out of thin air. They have to bargain with muggles to get raw materials, like wood, cloth, and so forth, and probably a lot of their industries are not especially magical. I suspect, for example, that making clothes is not radically different from mundane tailoring work.

[smiling bandit]

I very much enjoyed the books, but the question that always bugged me is this: How can there be "poor" wizards? And by poor, I mean Weasley poor--i.e., shabby clothing, hand-me-downs, second-hand books, cracked dishes, etc.

IOW, why wouldn't everything be magically turned into first-rate, shining stuff? I'm not sure what use there is for money at all, considering the whole wizard universe.

Its patently obvious that all wizards cannot simply make everything they want appear out of thin air. They have to bargain with muggles to get raw materials, like wood, cloth, and so forth, and probably a lot of their industries are not especially magical. I suspect, for example, that making clothes is not radically different from mundane tailoring work. They have money for exactly the same reason we do: to use a medium of value-exchange.

[Stonebow]

I suppose that my major concern with Hogwarts and Quiddich specifically is the lack of rules, and total lack of enforcement of any sort of order. Cheating seems to be widespread; Professors are allowed to show extreme favoritism, even threaten physical harm; bullying is tolerated, even encouraged- all of these are plausible, I suppose, but it seems odd to be happening under the watchful eye of the always-just, omniscient Dumbledore.

examples would include the rampant cheating in Quiddich, as well as the assorted curses and cursed bludgers that float around without anyone stopping the games, everyone's tolerance of Malfoy and his group, and Snape's targeted harassment of anything not Slytherin.

[Loneraven]

Originally posted by Bob Cos
I very much enjoyed the books, but the question that always bugged me is this: How can there be "poor" wizards? And by poor, I mean Weasley poor--i.e., shabby clothing, hand-me-downs, second-hand books, cracked dishes, etc.

IOW, why wouldn't everything be magically turned into first-rate, shining stuff? I'm not sure what use there is for money at all, considering the whole wizard universe.

Again, I enjoyed the books, and I don't really mind if well-told stories have somewhat illogical givens. Perhaps there is an explanation?

As far as I can tell, you can't create something out of thin air. The leprechaun gold is a good example, as it looks real but disappears after a while. And even Transfiguration is very difficult and taught by only the very best teachers (Dumbledore, McGonagall) as the students start with things as small as needles and after five years only seem to be up to hedgehogs.

Harry's Invisibility Cloak - my understanding was that it's very thin. In Philosopher's Stone, it's described as being very light, and as we know it's big enough to cover two children and a (small) dragon, the natural assumption is that it is thin enough to fold up small. It may well fit in Harry's pocket.

I have to admit I rather like the idea of a game where a match can last for days. It hasn't happened yet in the series, but it might. It's just a wonderful idea.

[TVAA]

Isn't that precisely how football is handled in English schools? (Keep in mind that my entire experience of English schools is derived from C. S. Lewis and Monty Python's The Meaning of Life...)

[Humble Servant]

Originally posted by smiling bandit
They have money for exactly the same reason we do: to use a medium of value-exchange. You poor, blind fool--wizard money is part of the centralized international banking system run by the great Goblin families of Europe--a tool used to subject credulous, complacent wizards to monetary oppression.

For gods' sake open your eyes! It is "patently obvious" that Goblin world domination is imminent.

Boycott the wizard bank before it's too late.

[asterion]

So, Humble Servant, are the goblins part of the Illuminati or just in league?

[Humble Servant]

Well, duhh.

The idiots at the Ministry have no clue about controlling wizards who must yap about everything. Muggles hear rumors about Gringott's and, hey presto!, you've gotcher Illuminati theory.

But really, since even the muggles can figure this one out, I am in absolute despair for the future of wizard freedom. Grow some balls, people.

[Kizarvexius]

The problem I've always had is about transfiguration. When you transfigure a pincushion into a porcupine, does the porcupine have a soul? Where does the soul come from? Is it a normal porcupine with thoughts, memories, and proper instincts? Does it remember being a pincushion?

Conversely, when you transfigure a porcupine into a pincushion, where does the soul go? Have you effectively killed the porcupine? What are the moral implications of making such a transfiguration permanently?

[smiling bandit]

I'm pretty sure the Catholic church would have something to say about that, too...

[pulykamell]

Originally posted by Short Guy
You mean, like tennis?

Not even close. In tennis, the points add up normally. It's just the "Love-15-30-40" system which seems odd (although its genesis was discussed here many times, and is fairly logical.) If you just think of it as a different name for "1-2-3-4" there's nothing at all illogical about the system.

In tennis terms, Quiddich would be like the first person getting an ace receiving 6 points and ending the game, or something like that. (Though I can't find a perfect analogy.)

[cher3]

I'm not sure I see what the problem is with quidditch. It isn't really like ending the game on an ace in tennis, because there are two ways to score. Either you slog along getting goals the regular way or you catch the snitch, which gains you an automatic 150 points (IIRC). So it would make sense to catch the snitch when your team was behind--as long as it wasn't by more than 150 points.

[Yookeroo]

Originally posted by cher3
I'm not sure I see what the problem is with quidditch. It isn't really like ending the game on an ace in tennis, because there are two ways to score. Either you slog along getting goals the regular way or you catch the snitch, which gains you an automatic 150 points (IIRC). So it would make sense to catch the snitch when your team was behind--as long as it wasn't by more than 150 points.

If the lead <150 (which it usually is), catching the snitch is all that counts. All the other scoring is meaningless.

If the lead is >150, then you don't want to catch the snitch (although in the games in the book, they inexplicably do), this guarantees a loss. The best way to make up ground ensures a loss.

If the teams that were behind by more than 150 points fought to keep the snitch from being caught instead of trying to catch it themselves, I might be willing to cut quidditch a little slack. But they don't, so I figure a sport that's designed so that much of the action is meaningless is a stupid sport. There's no way this sport would survive in the real world without some major changes. Even if it was just a kids' game, the kids would realize just how flawed it was and try to fix it.

[cher3]

That's what I was thinking. Which books have games where the snitch is caught against a >150 point lead by the other team? (I read them all at one point, but I'm fuzzy on the details.)

[Gulo gulo]

One thing that always confused me was when Dobby disappears in Chamber of Secrets:

'Dobby must go!' breathed the elf, terrified; there was a loud crack, and Harry's fist was suddenly clenched on thin air.

Hermione is always stating "You can't Apparate or Disapparate in Hogwarts" so do elves do something different? Or can you Apparate into another section of the castle and then leave on foot?

Just something that always stuck out to me and I'd love to know if I just missed something stated elsewhere.

[sghoul]

I am thinking that the individual positions in Quidditch must not be able to play along the lines of another position. Otherwise, the best way to play would be to have half your team guard your goals and the other half look for the snitch.

[Earl of the CC]

Ahem. I have an explanation for item 4 in the OP. Why didn't Crouch just make a portkey of his toothbrush or something? Well, I'd love to give hints for a while and see if some of you figure it out on your own, but I'd likely forget I was involved in this thread so I better just say it now.

Two things to bear in mind. 1. Think of what it was like at Hogwarts that night. Who was there, the atmosphere, etc. etc. 2. Remember, portkeys don't automatically take you back somewhere. You set them with a time to go and you can set them with a time to come back.

Now, this information is all you need, but I'll tell you how it fits. Voldemort and his crew were planning on coming back to Hogwarts with that portkey. They were going to attack en masse. With all the innocents around, not to mention a traitor still in perfect disguise and one headmaster who's just going to run away, it wouldn't be all that difficult for them to take out their threats. As soon as they're through, Crouch could kill Dumbledore. After that, pick off the rest, including the Minister of Magic. Britain's wizarding community would be in panic, and in a single night Voldy would be better off than he was at the height of his powers a decade prior.

Naturally this is unproven, but it's an awesome idea, and in fact the only good idea I've heard to explain it.

I read this somewhere, Mugglenet I think, but maybe not. So I don't take credit for coming up with the idea.



On Quidditch. As a huge Potterfan I must say... the rules to Quidditch are just plain stupid as hell. How 'bout if the snitch was easier to catch and the game was over after it had gone uncaptured for an hour. The game may go on indefinitely, but ends when an hour after the last capture has passed. Something, anything but the nonsensical way it's run in the books.

[Sketch]

Rowling discusses this somewhere in the book, I think it's Dumbledore that explains that house-elves have powerful magic of their own, so they can appear and disappear in Hogwarts, much like Fawkes the Phoenix.

What annoyed me in the books is that Harry never does the obvious things, In PS, CoS, there were so many oppurtunities to go tell the teachers and let themdeal with it but he has to do it himself. Although Rowling has sort of explained this in OoP.

[rdsiam]

I love the Harry potter books as much as the next person, but I've got some problems with the logic of the Wizarding World as well.
For instance, it doesn't seem logical to me that wizards would dress and behave so differently from muggles. Wouldn't it be easier to hide if you look and act just like everyone else? For example, why live in a world where candles are used for lighting, why not use light bulbs?
Another thing: I know that wizards use memory spells to make muggles forget what they know about them, but what about muggles with magic children. Hermione's parents have been to Diagon Alley several times, cetainly they don't get their memory wiped after each visit. And what keeps them, or any muggle parent from telling others?

[rdsiam]

I love the Harry potter books as much as the next person, but I've got some problems with the logic of the Wizarding World as well.
For instance, it doesn't seem logical to me that wizards would dress and behave so differently from muggles. Wouldn't it be easier to hide if you look and act just like everyone else? For example, why live in a world where candles are used for lighting, why not use light bulbs?
Another thing: I know that wizards use memory spells to make muggles forget what they know about them, but what about muggles with magic children. Hermione's parents have been to Diagon Alley several times, cetainly they don't get their memory wiped after each visit. And what keeps them, or any muggle parent from telling others?

[Loneraven]

Originally posted by TVAA
Isn't that precisely how football is handled in English schools? (Keep in mind that my entire experience of English schools is derived from C. S. Lewis and Monty Python's The Meaning of Life...)

My entire experience of English schools is coming up on thirteen years, and if you mean football is handled by matches lasting for days, I have to respectfully remark, "Huh?"

Or have I just been whooshed?

[sjc]

I think Quidditch is a good game but does not get described very well in the books. I don't have much problem with the 150 points for the snitch since other games have variable scoring and seem to work out fine. 150 points is extreme, but I think it could work. I just think that it needs more refinements in terms of rules. Also it seems like every Quidditch match described is subordinated to the needs of the story with out regard for reality.

I'm not saying the games are all implausible, but they seem, I don't know, not quite real.

[Meteorshower]

Originally posted by bup
4) In book 4, Barty Crouch Jr. made the TriWizard Tournament a Portkey. Why didn't he just make Harry Potter's, I don't know, toothbrush? a portkey?


As a previous poster said, portkey's are strictly regulated. My personnal theory is that the Triwizard Cup was supposed to be a Portkey, so it was registered at the ministry as being one. It was then sent to Hogwart's to be enchanted to transport whoever touched it at the start of the maze.

That way, the winner would instantly get out of the maze and wouldn't have to fight his way back out (or risk it being stolen from him by another opponent). So, Barty Crouch Jr. enchanted the Triwizard Cup like he was supposed too, but "programmed" a different location in it than the official one.

This supposes that the ministry only keeps track of which objects are portkeys and nothing else.

[Delly]

Suprised not to have seen this mentoned already (or mabe it was and Ive missed it) but Hogwarts is one school in Britain, whats to say theres not 100's more? just because we know of no others doesnt mean there not there.

And I know you could argue about well then why does only Hogwarts compete in the the Triwizard Cup? Well doesnt it even mention that its the three biggest wizarding schools in Europe that compete? So maybe there are other schools in the UK, and that would account for the one hundred thousand wizards at the World Cup.

[Melandry]

Another thing that accounts for the larger-than-expected number of wizards is their apparent extra-long lifespans. Dumbledore is what, ~150 according to Rowling, and Madame Marchbanks from Book 5 claims to have examined him for his NEWTs, so she'd have to be even older. You have 1 or 2 more generations around than we Muggles would expect...

[Dewey Finn]

Someone in another Harry Potter thread brought up the question of how Hogwarts handles the admission of Muggle-born students.

I don't think they could just be sent an admissions letter (via owl, no less) out of the blue and be expected to understand everything.

Presumably someone would have to visit the family to explain the existence of the wizarding world, explain that there is this really prestigious but secret boarding school called Hogwarts and then go with them to Diagon Alley for the school supplies (but first going to Gringotts with them for the currency transfer).

[FilmGeek]

(These points cover a lot of different questions so I didn't quote anyone in particular)

Ahem.. Cricket anyone? Matches lasting forever, strange ways of scoring and playing... I thought all along that she was poking fun at cricket with quidditch.

Off topic: The Quidditch XBox game is hard. Easy if you're playing house teams, but the world cup...

As for Hermione's parents, would you tell your muggle friends if your daughter was a witch? I think not.

Do you remember everyone who was in your classes in school? Why would Harry (or JKR) mention them if they're not important to the plot? (and Harry begat Hermione who begat Ron who begat Professor Trewlawney) NO!

[pulykamell]

Originally posted by sjc
I think Quidditch is a good game but does not get described very well in the books. I don't have much problem with the 150 points for the snitch since other games have variable scoring and seem to work out fine. 150 points is extreme, but I think it could work. I just think that it needs more refinements in terms of rules. Also it seems like every Quidditch match described is subordinated to the needs of the story with out regard for reality.

I'm not saying the games are all implausible, but they seem, I don't know, not quite real.

More refinement?! Other games have a variable scoring system? Sure, but not to this ridiculous magnitude (which you admitted). A goal is what, 10 points in Quidditch? The snitch is 150? All the action outside of catching the snitch is absolutely meaningless unless your team sucks so badly that it can give up sixteen goals to none!!! Or your team can score 14 unanswered goals, and then loses 'cause your opps caught the snitch. This does not make sense on any level. The only defense of this game is that it's meant to be absurd, a parody of cricket or whatnot. You cannot possibly convince me that the game on some level makes sense.

Not that I care. They don't detract from the readability of the books, and plots can be written around these defects. I'm just surprised Rowling didn't think out the game a little better. I mean, when I had English students in Hungary, 10 year old girls would tell me how the rules of the game make no sense.

[Chronos]

Another point on the number of students at Hogwarts (I don't have my books here, so this is from memory): At one of the Quidditch matches, there's mention of three hundred fans wearing green and silver (Slytherin's colors). We're already told that everyone but the Slytherins was rooting for Gryffindor that match, so that means that we've got three hundred Slytherins. On the other hand, if Harry's class is typical in size, there are only about 70 Gryffindors. The four tables in the Great Hall are all the same size, which would argue for equal enrollment in the four houses. We might explain the Slytherin showing at the game by families and alumns, but if that's the case, then why don't any of the Weaslys ever come to the games?

On Muggle knowledge of wizards: Muggles are on a need-to-know basis. Some Muggles, like the Dursleys and the Grangers, need to know, so they're told. Most don't need to know. Presumably, the wizarding world trusts that those who know will be discrete, or at least that they won't be believed if they tell.

On Quidditch: My impression is that professional Snitches are much harder to catch than scholastic-level ones. Harry is an extraordinary player, for a schoolboy, but he's nowhere near pro. So usually, the Snitch isn't so decisive in school matches, and it's still plausible that pro matches could go for days (since the Snitch is so much more difficult). But it's still not clear to me why Viktor caught the Snitch in the World Cup. He says it's because his team was so far behind that they didn't have a hope of catching up... But they weren't, really. One or two more goals before the Snitch would have won them the game (I'm not sure how ties are handled in Quidditch). My best guess is that he knew he couldn't stop the opposing Seeker from catching it, without catching it himself, and losing by ten points is better than losing by 310.

[Katisha]

Originally posted by Fiver
Dean Thomas is an American. We may presume Cho Chung is Chinese, at least ethnically, and the Patil twins are South Asian, at least ethnically. So I think we can assume the wizarding world is global.

And of course this is made abundantly clear in GoF, with the Quidditch World Cup and the continental wizarding schools. It doesn't say anywhere that Dean Thomas is American, but we do hear about a group of American quidditch fans who turn up at the tournament. (Although iirc JKR says in an interview somewhere that American wizards prefer a different broom sport -- along the lines of the UK/US soccer-football dichotomy. ;))

[KGS]

Originally posted by Stonebow
I suppose that my major concern with Hogwarts and Quiddich specifically is the lack of rules, and total lack of enforcement of any sort of order. Cheating seems to be widespread; Professors are allowed to show extreme favoritism, even threaten physical harm; bullying is tolerated, even encouraged-
I just figured these were all Rowling's commentary on the state of English boarding schools, esp. Snape's prejudice against Harry. Not that I've ever been to an English boarding school...although I have been to American public schools, and they're not much better.

[curly chick]

Dean Thomas is an American. We may presume Cho Chung is Chinese, at least ethnically, and the Patil twins are South Asian, at least ethnically. So I think we can assume the wizarding world is global.

Isn't our old friend Dead Thomas, :D sorry Dean Thomas the kiddiwink with the posters of West Ham on his walls? And doesn't he shout out during a Quidditch match that some dastardly Slytherin or other should be given a yellow card?
Having no knowledge whatsoever if yellow cards are used in American football, I'd suggest that this definitely makes him British.

As for Cho, Padma and Parvati - I think they are British too, surely we all know that Britiain is multi cultural and not all British people are white. But the real reason I think this is that when we meet Fleur and Victor, their speech is written in a stilted manner which seems to convey the idea that they are not native English speakers.
" 'Ave you finish wiz ze Bouillebaisse?"
"Vot haff you to say, Herminoninny?"
JK Rowling does not do this when Cho, Padma or Parvati speak.

A far as I can see, the only foreign child in Hogwarts is Seamus Finnegan - obviously all the Irish Wizarding money is being spent on the Qudditch Team and there is none left for education, so juvenile witches and wizards have to go away to boarding school in the UK.
As you know, we have our position as World Quidditch Champions to uphold, and that must surely cost a lot of EuroGalleons!!!!!

Good grief; I have too much time on my hands!

[Shortie]

Originally posted by KGS
I just figured these were all Rowling's commentary on the state of English boarding schools, esp. Snape's prejudice against Harry. Not that I've ever been to an English boarding school...although I have been to American public schools, and they're not much better.
Speaking as someone who went to a school with both boarding and houses, it's not quite that bad nowdays. Personally I think that Dumbledore really is insane, which is why he happily lets children risk their lives, and lets Snape get away with so much.

More seriously, the thing about Wizard society is that it's very slow to change, it's not that long ago in absolute terms that real schools did things like that. Equally IIRC the original football games were played literally between two villages, with almost no rules, and could go on for days.

[Orual]

Originally posted by Katisha
(Although iirc JKR says in an interview somewhere that American wizards prefer a different broom sport -- along the lines of the UK/US soccer-football dichotomy. ;))

The US version is described in Quidditch Through the Ages. It's called Quodpot, and I believe it involves exploding bludgers...

[smiling bandit]

That's what I was thinking. Which books have games where the snitch is caught against a >150 point lead by the other team? (I read them all at one point, but I'm fuzzy on the details.)

I don't recall the other, but one book was "Goblet of Fire". Krum caught the snitch after he realized that his team was outmatched. He chsoe to end the game on his terms. Tis is more or less what happens when the losing side catches the snitch.[/spoiler]

[quote]Suprised not to have seen this mentoned already (or mabe it was and Ive missed it) but Hogwarts is one school in Britain, whats to say theres not 100's more? just because we know of no others doesnt mean there not there.

While there probably are no other large-scale schools, its entirely possible that there is a tradition of home-schooling or small local schools.

For instance, it doesn't seem logical to me that wizards would dress and behave so differently from muggles. Wouldn't it be easier to hide if you look and act just like everyone else? For example, why live in a world where candles are used for lighting, why not use light bulbs?

Why should Wizards be logical? No one *else* is. Basically, Wizards are cut of from society, they've dropped out of the human race, and they are significantly behind us in development. So its no surprise that thet barely understand trains, let alone cars and electricity. And anyway, areas of really high magic, like Hogwarts, interfere with electronics.

The US version is described in Quidditch Through the Ages. It's called Quodpot, and I believe it involves exploding bludgers...

Its American. Of course it involves exploding bludgers. :D

[Yookeroo]

Originally posted by curly chick
Isn't our old friend Dead Thomas, :D sorry Dean Thomas the kiddiwink with the posters of West Ham on his walls? And doesn't he shout out during a Quidditch match that some dastardly Slytherin or other should be given a yellow card?
Having no knowledge whatsoever if yellow cards are used in American football, I'd suggest that this definitely makes him British.

More kids in the U.S. play soccer than any other sport. An American kid would likely know what a yellow card is. My nephew's bedroom walls are covered in soccer posters.

[Mehitabel]

I do like the nod to non-Anglo Britain in the books. There's nothing to suggest that Cho and the twins are anything other than British.

Dean? Maybe the confusion arises from the fact that the English version of the books doesn't mention his ethnicity at first, only making it clear later he's Black, while in the American version it's mentioned a lot sooner. I would like them to run into some no-nonsense, informal, egalitarian American folks though.

The Minstry seems a little weird, very corrupt and inefficient yet the average Muggle doesn't know about the wizarding world. Maybe they have a Sunnydale attitude going :D

[bup]

I think if I were Dumbledore, I'd just have a standing weekly meeting with Harry - just to hear about everything that happened each week.

"Anything unusual, Harry? Food taste funny? A bug look at you knowingly? Everything great? Tell me how it's great. I want to hear."

The defenses of Qiudditch are weak - yes, Cricket can last for days, because you're never obligated to run. A snitch not being caught for days? And catching a snitch when you're behind, even by 170 points, is nuts. You'e just two goals out.

[Götterfunken]

Originally posted by Yookeroo
More kids in the U.S. play soccer than any other sport. An American kid would likely know what a yellow card is. My nephew's bedroom walls are covered in soccer posters. But are they West Ham United posters? I'm not saying there aren't any West Ham supporters in the States--but I have yet to meet one (and since West Ham was relegated to the First Division, I suspect it will be a while before they gain any new American fans).

That detail in itself suggests that Dean is almost certainly British (and probably from London).

[Yookeroo]

Originally posted by Skopo
But are they West Ham United posters? I'm not saying there aren't any West Ham supporters in the States--but I have yet to meet one (and since West Ham was relegated to the First Division, I suspect it will be a while before they gain any new American fans).

That detail in itself suggests that Dean is almost certainly British (and probably from London).

Yeah, I knew I should have qualified that. The West Ham posters do suggest that he's English. I just wanted to point out the knowing about yellow cards doesn't really tell you anything one way or another.

[jayjay]

And American football has yellow flags (handkerchiefs, really) that are thrown down to signal a penalty, also.

[smiling bandit]

There's nothing to suggest that Cho and the twins are anything other than British.

The name Chang is highly likely to be of Han Chinese origin.

Look, Quidditch was supposed to be a slightly insane, wild parody of Cricket. I'm american and I hate soccor and never play cricket, and even I recognized that.

[Tarrsk]

Originally posted by smiling bandit
The name Chang is highly likely to be of Han Chinese origin.


But "Cho" is not. Both "Cho" and "Chang" are common romanizations of Korean names, but the "Cho" does not exist in standard Chinese pinyin romanization.


In any case, I think Mehitabel's point was that Cho, Padma, and Parvati are British citizens, even though they are not ethnically Caucasian. It's nice (and fairly rare) to have minority characters whose personalities, interactions with other characters, and speaking styles aren't defined by their ethnicity.

[GuanoLad]

When Rowling first started writing her books, I'm sure she never expected them to be anything more than mildly popular within her intended audience of 12 year olds. So she comes up with a sport, and invents the rules in an afternoon. It fits the story she wants to tell, it has a mixture of cricket, basketball, and rugby in there, the rules are simplistic and uncomplicated, and it has an energy to the game.

Suddenly she's the huge worldwide sensation, and the game is getting scrutinised by a lot more people than she could ever have expected, sometimes experts in their fields, and at a level of pedantic detail that is frankly ridiculous.

They're just kids books. You should always keep that in mind; she just wants you to be entertained while you read them, and doesn't deserve this kind of obsessive scrutiny.