Potty training and lazy parents

[pkbites]

On thanksgiving Day my brother told me a story of how a few weeks ago a neighbor came over and asked him and his wife to babysit for a few hours while the neighbor went to a funeral. The kid (a boy) turns 4 in April. When the neighbor dropped him off, they included a supply of diapers.:eek:
And sure enough, the kid took a dump in his drawers while they were watching him.
When the neighbor picked him up, my brother inquired as to why a child that's over 43 months old isn't toilet trained. This made the neighbor slightly pissy and she made some comments about how he [the child] "hasn't decided to be potty trained yet". I just shook my head when he told me this. My brother has 3 kids, all girls, I have 3 kids, 2 boys and a girl. All of our kids were potty trained well before they were 3 years old. But our kids are all adults now. Have times and attitudes changed so much that we've lost touch with this issue?

I say a 43 month old of otherwise average intelligence should not still be crapping in his drawers. This sounds like lazy parenting to me. or am I wrong?

[sleeping]

Yeah, that seems pretty lazy. Certainly unassertive.

But it's their kid and if they want to just let him be then that's their choice.

Maybe you should have only given the kid one pair of underwear per day. That'll teach him to use the toilet real quick.

[auliya]

I don't know about lazy parenting, but it certainly prevalent, for some reason.

I am sorry to have to admit it is also rampant in my own family :(

My daughter somehow managed to train her oldest daughter to use her nappy (Australian for diaper) instead of the toilet, so at 4 she was running around with no nappy but insisting on having one put on so she could go to the toilet in it, then insisting it be taken off. Me - I would have left her in the damned thing - but somehow she managed to get her to use the toilet before preschool.

Now my oldest son's daughter is also still in nappies, and she is 4 in March. However although he only has every second weekend access he is making an attempt to put things right - but she is going the opposite way, wailing to go to the toilet every 5 minutes and keeping him in the parent/child toilet at a shopping centre for 40 minutes last time he had access, while she "tried" to go to the toilet.

I have a theory that it is disposable nappies that are behind this phenomenon - put the kid in good old fashioned towelling nappies and see how quickly parents and child take to the toilet training process when they have to wash or wear the stinky uncomfortable things.

[SkeptiJess]

In the absence of other factors I would agree that it sounds like laziness. I also agree that this late training is common nowadays. Personally, I blame it on the pullups. My mom did home daycare for years and she started seeing the late trainers right about the same time the pullups -- which combine the convenience of diapers (just go right in them) with the convenience of underpants (the kids can put them on themselves) -- came on the market. And, at least in her experience, the parents tend to be the culprits. It was common for Mom to work hard all week getting a kid to use the potty, then get them back after the weekend completely untrained -- the parents had taken the kids out and about on the weekend and "it was easier" to put them back in pullups. Many of her kids weren't trained until after 4 years old and one girl was still wearing pullups on her 5th birthday -- she was barely trained in time to start kindergarden. And most of these parents were heard to utter the excuse "He/she isn't ready yet." Apparently with a straight face!

My now-17 year old son was fully potty-trained by shortly before his 3rd birthday. My now-16 year old daughter wasn't trained until shortly after her 4th birthday (and she was still having fairly frequent accidents until age 8) -- but she has Cerebral Palsy, so that isn't surprising in her case.

[whiterabbit]

I was stubborn and didn't finish training until I was past three, but I'm sure that wasn't due to a lack of effort on my mom's part. It is true that some kids simply aren't ready until two and a half or three, but FOUR?

The pull-up type things do have one good use; my brother had a problem with bedwetting until he was eightish and his bladder caught up with the rest of him, and they saved us washing a lot of sheets.

[DaddyTimesTwo]

Wow. All I can hope is that one day I'll be as great a parent as you all.

Maybe these parents are lazy, but maybe not. Your brother sure is a busybody for asking such a question. And I hope he didn't p[hrase it the same way you did. I would have been a little more than "prissy" in that situation. Sounds like he isn't a regular babysitter and this was an emergency situation, and it's unfortunate that they had to deal with cleaning up the kid's crap, no one likes that kind of job. But the kid's potty training schedule is none of his business.

See, I'm one of the "lazy" parents y'all are disparaging. My son will 4 in 4 weeks and he's mostly potty trained and he till wears a diaper at bed time, just in case. And he has the odd accident in his pants, no. 1 and 2. My wife tried a couple times over the past year to potty train him and it just didn't take. He had huge fits. He cried and screamed. It was difficult, and so we let him off. And just what is the harm? How are we scarring him by letting him do this at his own pace? Now he runs to the bathroom on his own and usually only hollers when he needs a wipe. Yeah, he has the odd accident, but they are getting more rare, we express our disappointment and ask that he do better next time.

Pull-ups just might be a factor, we tried that for a while and then abandoned it cause it gave little incentive for him to use the potty.

Does that make us lazy? Certainly not. I think pushing a kid to get potty trained makes you all selfish and insensitive. It makes life much easier and less expensive for us parents, but what does it do for the kid? When he starts school he'll be using the potty just like everyone else. Get over it.

[theR]

You wouldn't judge most people on age alone, so why do you do it in a case like this? Two people of the same age aren't necessarily equal in terms of maturity or equal in a host of other ways. This applies to people aged three, four, 10, 18, 21, or 81.

[Dangerosa]

Actually, my peditrician said not to even bother until three. If they do it before three and show readiness, great. If not, no reason to worry. The advice on this has really changed.

Both my kids were late potty trainers. Not due to laziness on my part. In the case of my son, he is a tentative kid. He usually doesn't attempt anything until he is pretty confident of success. So once he trained at 3 1/2, no accidents (he still wears a pull up at night). He had some issues about being afraid of the toilet he had to work through as well.

My daughter is stubborn and has a baby fetish. We tried EVERYTHING after she turned three short of beating her. Stickers. Timers. Letting her run around naked. It had become a power struggle and a refusal for her to grow up. She finally had a talk with the peditrician and we were told to put her back into diapers (not pullups, not training pants, not all the other stuff we'd tried to transition her) and let her decide. She did, about two weeks later.

One of the mom's at daycare is the most type A person I know. Not at all lazy when it comes to her children (or her house or her job or anything she does). Her daughter trained at four and a half. She blames daycare (although other kids at daycare trained at two, I suspect the little girl was in a power struggle with mom).

If your kids potty trained early and easily, be grateful that the potty gods were smiling on you. But don't assume that other parents are lazy.

But I'd love some advice just in case I ever have a third child. What do you suggest be done with a child who is going on four and doesn't respond to stickers? Doesn't respond to ten minutes on the potty every half hour? Leaves puddles (and worse) when you try the naked approach? Thinks heaven is sitting in wet and/or soiled training pants?

[CrankyAsAnOldMan]

Who gives a crap if they are "lazy" about this? I say this as an avowedly lazy parent when it came to potty training. My son wasn't fully trained until well after three. Maybe he could've been trained earlier if we were less "lazy."
But I can tell you that our doctor (father of three, doctor to hundreds of kids) wasn't particularly worried, and neither was our daycare provider (degree in child development, mother of two, in the business for 30 years).

More important, to me, is whether a parent is "lazy" about installing the child seat. Or providing balanced meals. Or offering stimulating, safe, age-appropriate activities. Compared to these, whether a kid trains at 24 months of 48 months seems like a small issue. Certainly not one that a neighbor should make pejorative comments about.

[pkbites]

Rod told me that they sat for this kid for about 2 1/2 hours and he found the kid to be bright and talkative. Then, all of a sudden, he just got quiet and was starring at my sister in law. "What's the matter?", she asked. "I'm pooping" was the reply. If he knows what he's doing and is consciously doing it, shouldn't he be trained to go into the bathroom?
What happens when they want to put him into 4 year old kindergarten?
As for my brother being a busy body, I think he tried to phrase it something like "Why doesn't such a big boy use the potty' or something. He only told this story because he was pissed about having to clean up someone elses kid.
My daughter was trained at 14 months, my 2 boys by 26 months.
3 1/2 just seems kind of old to me, and I'm wondering why the attitude on this has changed.
From what I've read it seems that part of the reason is about letting the child make the decision. But children show signs of being ready usually by 2 or so. I think parents are being lazy by not following through.

[dangermom]

I don't really feel myself in a position to comment on this, but maybe it would be OK to ask something that I, as a SAHM, have always wondered: how in the world do you potty-train a kid who is in daycare? Does the center have a sort of program, and the parents are expected to make an effort to support it at home? Does the center try to accommodate the parents' style? What if you can only afford a pretty mediocre place, and they don't make much effort at all?

[DaddyTimesTwo]

But children show signs of being ready usually by 2 or so. I think parents are being lazy by not following through.


Bolding mine. My son was nowhere near ready at two, and we tried shortly after he turned three with no luck, as I mentioned. And calling parents lazy doesn't leave any room for things like this (http://www.babycenter.com/expert/toddler/toilettraining/6331.html).
If you're starting to get frustrated by your child's lack of success, or if your child seems to be actively resisting toilet training, it's a sign that you both need a short breather...

pkbites, your brother's experience was obviously unpleasant for him, and perhaps this child's parents could be more assertive with the potty training, but calling all parents whose kids are not trained by some arbitrary age lazy is presumptuous on your part. So chill out and tell your brother to decline babysitting until the kid's potty trained.

[BwanaBob]

The key question raised here is "what motivates a kid to want to be potty trained?"

If a kid wears those pullups there is no "consequence" for going in his pants. Someone's earlier post brought up that fact.

Last summer, on our pediatrician's recommendation, we switched our son to underwear during the day. He loved the comfort. But at night we had put him in pullups (for bed protection).

NOTE: Kids rarely crap in their sleep. No cite but other parents in our neighborhood have noted this as well.

At that point he took it upon himself to let us know he had to go potty. We would assist him (get him to the john etc.) We then tested the waters by letting him sleep in underwear.

That put him on a fast-track to training. By fall he was fully trained.

Folks, it's called potty "training" for a reason.
You have to put in the time (and my wife and I both work full-time).

[CrankyAsAnOldMan]

Originally posted by pkbites
But children show signs of being ready usually by 2 or so. I think parents are being lazy by not following through.

Do you have some data on this? What do you mean by "usually?"

Dangermom, in our case, our daycare provider just started the training as she usually did it, and let us know what worked for her in regards to our son. Our son was greatly influenced by the other children in her care, so we couldn't duplicate that at home (he's an only child). I didn't ask her for a lot of advice on methods; instead I got some from other parents. Her main advice was not to push and not to freak; she never knew any kid who started college in diapers.

In our present daycare situation (a center), my son is in with kids who are trained and kids who aren't. They have set times when they ask all the children to use the toilet, and I think this sort of 'scheduling' is helpful. Not sure what sorts of training methods they use since we're past that now.

[SnoopyFan]

The kid turns 4 in April. That means he is 3 and a half. Maybe a bit late by some people's standards but not at all what I'd call abnormal. If the kid, say, isn't potty trained by the time he hits 4, maybe that's cause for concern. A mere month in a toddler's life brings huge changes in development sometimes.

And IMHO unless a kid is just raring to go potty like a big boy/girl (and some are, definitely), I kinda have to raise an eyebrow about training a kid well before they hit 3. A couple of months before, sure. But before then and I'm wondering if it's Mommy and Daddy's accomplishment instead of the kid's. I have a friend who has been working on her kid since before she even turned 2. She's about 2 and a half now and pees sometimes but I personally think she's a bit too hyper and should just chill out and let the kid go at her own pace. So far the kid isn't in therapy over it, though :D

We trained Lil Snoopy by putting her in "big girl panties" during the day. If she peed, she had to live with it for a few minutes, which was uncomfortable. She learned really quick when she needed to pee and where to go to do her thing. Much praise and merriment followed every time she went to the big girl potty. At night we put her in diapers but once she was regularly going through the night dry, we stopped. She was fully trained by, oh, September this year (she turned 3 in July).

[rjung]

Just wanted to mention that my kid didn't get potty-trained until after 3, and even then it was a struggle at first -- the moment you plopped him on the potty, he would howl and scream like he was being tortured or something. Of course, now he announces every potty trip in a loud yell, so he's over that. ;)

As SnoopyFan points out, the kid in question is 3-and-a-half; not being potty trained at that age might be slightly unusual, but not a parenting crime IMO.

[Avumede]

What I've learned is that potty training in the first world and the third world seem to be completely different. My wife, from the Caribbean, was potty trained at 6 months, and her brother was a slower learner, potty trained at 1.5 years. My kids right now were semi-potty trained (only urinating in their diapers) by 9 months old. This is quite normal for most of the world. Personally, I think it's a great thing to potty train this early. Of course, this kind of thing is a process - it still will be a long time untl they go to the bathroom on their own, but at least they don't poop in their diapers anymore.

[Dangerosa]

Folks, it's called potty "training" for a reason.

That's right. Take all the credit for easy potty training. My cousin learned this the hard way. First child - a boy (they train late you know) trained by a year. Second child, eighteen months. My cousin was stellar. She was incredible. Mom of the Year. She knew how to potty train children and was an expert. Could have written books.

Then the potty karma caught up to her. Her third child (a girl) was 3 1/2 before she trained. And was a shit smearer for six months (poop in the diaper - smear on the walls). That third little darling is EEEEVIL - in more ways than just potty training. Making up for the two little angels that proved what a great parent she was.

But I'd still like you to suggest something I didn't try with my daughter that would have worked. Because, as I said, short of beating her, we tried darn near everything and I think I read six books on how to potty train your child (and we have a full collection of children's potty books as well, and videotapes). (My favorite motivational tool was Peeing for Prizes - didn't work though. I knew I'd gone too far when my four year old looked at his sister - who was admiring a yellow VW Beetle and said "if you potty train, Mommy will buy you a yellow bug car").


I laugh as I and my girlfriends have discovered how different our children are. One thought I was nuts for some behavior I had with one of my kids - then she had one who needed the same behavior (can't remember what it is, maybe lying down with your kids for a few minutes to get them to sleep?). One was shocked that all our children didn't speak in full sentences by fourteen months (it was the breastfeeding and attachment parenting, she told everyone). Her second is two and doesn't talk much at all. (Tests OK, not great, but not intervention territory).

On the daycare front, my daycare uses a variety of different methods depending on how the child responds. Scheduled potty breaks are part of the program from two on. Plus rewards for putting something in (tootsie rolls were a favorite, stickers for the candyless kids). Peer pressure sometimes does wonders (didn't for my daughter).

[dangermom]

Then the potty karma caught up to her...That third little darling is EEEEVIL - in more ways than just potty training. Making up for the two little angels that proved what a great parent she was.Heh heh. Ain't that how it always goes? I'm fully expecting to get a devil-child next time, because the two I've got are just a little too easy for comfort. I try not to get too smug, because I know quite well that it isn't me, perfect mom that I am--something really nasty is lying in wait for me, that's all. :p

[Eve]

Originally posted by pkbites
And sure enough, the kid took a dump in his drawers while they were watching him.

. . . Maybe they shouldn't have stared at him so hard . . .

[Eve]

Originally posted by Dangerosa
(My favorite motivational tool was Peeing for Prizes - didn't work though).

. . . It has been green-lighted next season on Fox, though . . .

[vanilla]

Eve: LOL!

Like my other mom friends used to say, as long as they are trained by school age.
I think my son was 3, I didn't write it down.
He was fairly easy.One day he walked over and said "Mom, I'm peeing right now".
So I knew it was time then to show him what to do.
Well, tell him, I couldn't show him.

Lazy is a bit strong, here.

[PatriotX]

Originally posted by BwanaBob
The key question raised here is "what motivates a kid to want to be potty trained?"


We found that removing the diapers and clothes, (aka butt nekkid), gave the feller a better sense f what was going on. It didn't take long for him to decide that he wanted to go to the potty instead of just peeing on himself. He still wore diapers to sleep in and if we were going somewhere and needed to dress him. He still had accidents of course. But the motivation was there.

[hedra]

Motivations vary by child.

But the research I've read lately suggests that if you start early, typically all you end up doing is training for longer. They train when they train, and you can either have extended phases of accidents, or short phases.

Kids will train themselves. And sure, in other parts of the world, kids are 'trained' earlier. But typically, the analysis on that says that it is the parents who are trained, not the child. Certainly that was my experience in China - the parents were highly attuned to the pooping and peeing precursors, and responded appropriately. Because of this, kids tended to get it as soon as they were able to, because they never did anything but pee and poop where they were 'supposed to'. Diapers? Who needs diapers? Split pants work.

But kids still are training themselves.

I'm not a lazy parent. We started training Gabe when he showed signs of being ready - telling us he was pooping, being interested in it, etc. But he wasn't really motivated to train, internally. Rewards? He could not care less. Peer pressure? Nope. (We had people tell us that once he was in preschool with peers who were potty trained, he would train. Um, WRONG! 9 months later, still not trained. He is king of no-peer-pressure, the kid who told me 'if another kid does something, do you want me to do it just because he did?' at all of 2.5 years old... shades of 'jumping off a bridge lectures in adolescence...). One day he was done, and then he was done done done, and never looked back. He was 3 3/4.

Our second kid is 25 months, and well on his way to self-training. Demanded a potty, uses it perfectly for peeing, still poops during naps (physically not ready to control that, I suspect). I suspect that pooping will be problematic for him, potty-wise, because he has had so many digestive troubles. Very little sense that he can control that, because of the repeated bouts of diarrhea. But peeing? He can hold it like a champ, and pees intentionally after sitting down and getting himself arranged. All on his own, without us saying boo. Heck, I didn't want him to start yet, because I wasn't interested in racing for the bathroom in stores just yet. But not really willing to stop him, either. Too much of a fight. Lazy parent, me.

The other thing that none of the lazy commentary takes into account is the emotional process involved. That is, potty training is scary for some kids. For others it is an ownership issue. For others it is a power or control issue. For others it is a self-esteem issue. These little individuals are (GASP) individual in how they approach it, what it means to them, whether they have issues in conflict with it, etc. Anxiety, control, power, ownership, separation, etc. all play a role in the process. Just because my older son knew he was pooping at all of 9 months old doesn't mean he was ready to have to control it all the time, no matter what. He has higher-than-normal anxiety, and a strong sense of self determination, identity, and personal autonomy. Pooping in the potty was tied in to that.

(And actually, pullups were a motivator rather than a de-motivator, because they leak. Uncomfortable.)

[hedra]

(clarifying: I wasn't lazy the first time, and he trained 'late', and I'm lazy as all get-out this time, and he's training at 2. It ain't me.)

[Guinastasia]

Well, it depends on the kid, but I think by four, you should be in big kid pants, not diapers.

Unless of course, you're into Taking Children Seriously (http://tcs.ac).

I was difficult to potty train-I was still pooping in my pants when I was three-my parents kept at me and I stopped. My sister, on the other hand, was nearly impossible. She would NOT pee or poop on the pot. Until my parents bribed her with a dollhouse.

[daveswifejen]

I am a mother of 4.....and I am one of the worlds laziest people ever, BUT NOT WITH AGE APPROPRIATE weaning. My children were all off the pacifier by walking age, off the bottle by 18mos.(although the sippy cup is making even this an alternative to a bottle as is pull ups with the diaper) and yes all started training at 2 and done long before 3. I know when I walk through a store and see a 5 year old child sitting in the basket sucking a pacifier I think the parent is lazy and would rather her and the child look rediculous than take the damned thing away and deal with the crying for the time it takes. I also have the same view when it comes to the bottle or nursing(not to start that debate, but sorry if the child is able to tell you he wants your boob and can lift your shirt pull it outta the bra and start feeding l.......its time to stop breast feeding) but I am so conscience of those scenes I refused to be that parent. And ya know what, they all turned out fine crying it out a couple days after the change.
There of course are all different situations and each individual different, but when the response is THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED or HE/SHE'S JUST A BABYor the best yet THEY WILL DO IT WHEN THEY ARE READY<throws arms up in air> ts time to tak a look around and see who is raising who.
My children are 13, 9, 7, and 4. I am 31, and if these are old fashioned thoughts and ways, well by golly, call me a home cause I am ready for a rest anyhow!
Thats my opinion on the laziness anyways :D

[daveswifejen]

I am a mother of 4.....and I am one of the worlds laziest people ever, BUT NOT WITH AGE APPROPRIATE weaning. My children were all off the pacifier by walking age, off the bottle by 18mos.(although the sippy cup is making even this an alternative to a bottle as is pull ups with the diaper) and yes all started training at 2 and done long before 3. I know when I walk through a store and see a 5 year old child sitting in the basket sucking a pacifier I think the parent is lazy and would rather her and the child look rediculous than take the damned thing away and deal with the crying for the time it takes. I also have the same view when it comes to the bottle or nursing(not to start that debate, but sorry if the child is able to tell you he wants your boob and can lift your shirt pull it outta the bra and start feeding l.......its time to stop breast feeding) but I am so conscience of those scenes I refused to be that parent. And ya know what, they all turned out fine crying it out a couple days after the change.
There of course are all different situations and each individual different, but when the response is THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED or HE/SHE'S JUST A BABYor the best yet THEY WILL DO IT WHEN THEY ARE READY<throws arms up in air> ts time to tak a look around and see who is raising who.
My children are 13, 9, 7, and 4. I am 31, and if these are old fashioned thoughts and ways, well by golly, call me a home cause I am ready for a rest anyhow!
Thats my opinion on the laziness anyways :D

[Dangerosa]

He has higher-than-normal anxiety, and a strong sense of self determination, identity, and personal autonomy. Pooping in the potty was tied in to that.

hedra, Have you ever heard of the book "Raising Your Spirited Child?" I have a spirited child. My cousins EEEVIL child is spirited.


daveswifejen, Great! Glad it worked for you. I ask again....would you like to tell me what I could have done to get my daughter out of diapers earlier? 'Cause I'm really interested in what might have worked. See, I wasn't lazy about it (if anything, I was anti-lazy and it backfired and turned into a nearly two year power struggle).

[FaerieBeth]

Info on Toilet Training:

http://www.toilet-training-guide.com/time-for-toilet-training.htm

From linked article
While there's no magic age at which a child is ready to start using the potty, most toddlers will develop the necessary physical and cognitive skills between 18 and 24 months of age (though some aren't ready to start until they're as old as 4).

Doctors at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia recently completed a study of 378 parents of toddlers. They found that the optimal time for toilet training was when toddlers started training just shy of their third birthdays.

For those toddlers starting toilet training before 27 months, the process took a year or more, but if they were started between 27 and 36 months, it took five to 10 months. The research appeared in the April 2003 issue of Pediatrics.

Bolding mine

Both my older boys trained between the ages of three and four (one went a little past four). I watched, I waited, and seized advantages where I could. They never wore pull-ups. They never wore a diaper at night once we made the switch to underwear, and they never had an accident.*
Now, I make no claims (I speak only from my own experience and that of personal friends who are also mothers.) that waiting until I could tell they were ready is the cause of such success, but I did have a couple of friends with children the same ages. They potty trained their children as early as 18 months and hailed their great prowess as mothers. They also had to take a bag of dry clothes to kindergarten everyday with the precious prodigy. You can never measure all children by the same arbitrary ruler.

FB
* I am aware the potty gods have smiled upon me. I knock on all manner of wood as I approach the 2nd birthday of child number last.

[tanookie]

I'm currently starting potty training with my 2 1/2 year old. She's started asking to sit on the potty and so we let her. She then gets scared when it is time to go and asks for her diaper.

I'm not going to force her. I figure when she's a little more comfortable with the potty she'll go on it. I don't want this to turn into a battle. I know the damage that can cause.

Frankly I'm much more interested in what I feel is better for my kids and us as parents than in how strangers see us.

Also, no one outside can know everything that happens in a home. Maybe that woman and her son had been working on potty training and come into some trouble when her pediatrician told her to take a break. It would be a sensitive subject for her and she would be defensive if approached accusatorily. Maybe your brother just shouldn't sit for them again?

Children do develop at different rates and they have their own priorities in development. I'm forever telling people to back off when they question my daughter's development. For example, she just started talking a few months ago. I got all kinds of advice about what was 'wrong' with her. Nothing. She just wanted to focus on other things. Physically she's very adept and walked early, jumped early can build elaborate towers and has been summersalting for months. She preferred to focus on these things. All of a sudden the words came by the dozens.

One other thing. You cannot look at a child and know how old they are with any accuracy. How do you know that is a 5 year old with a pacifier? I used to have that mental image in my head until I had a child of my own. She's tall for her age. (2 and 1/2 and she's currently in size 5 clothes) Strangers always expect a lot from her because they assume she's older than she is. Now when I see kids I don't judge because they may just look older and I don't know their individual situation and all kids are different.

[FaerieBeth]

Oh, I forgot the article on Toilet Training Resistance-

http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/toddler/toddlerproblems/toilet_training_resistance.html

Once again from the linked article

Reasons for developing a resistance to potty training can include:

-being scared to sit on the potty chair

-flushing the toilet may have scared him from wanting to sit on the toilet

-being pushed too early or fast before he was ready

-severe punishment for not using the potty or being forced to sit on the potty

-inconsistant training, especially among different caregivers

-he may have had a painful bowel movement from being constipated. If this is the case, treat his constipation and wait until he is having regular, soft bowel movements before you begin training again.

-or he may just be stubborn and is involved in a power struggle with his parents and is using his control over where he has a bowel movement

-he may enjoy the negative attention he gets from not using the potty or from having accidents

-although rare, there are medical conditions that can make it difficult for your child to hold in or delay urinating or having a bowel movement. Discuss with your Pediatrician if there are any medical reasons why you may be having a hard time teaching your child to use potty, especially if he seems to have other delays in his development.


FB

[Dangerosa]

Oh, Eve....that crack was worthy of Dorothy Parker.

[DSeid]

Eh, we're all lazy.

Early training was laziness mixed in with competitveness. Cloth diapers. A trained kid was easier than washing the dang things.

Third world? That's parents trained to recognize what's coming and get the kid off the back and down to ground.

Now, in developed countries with disposables and kids carted around, what's the rush? It is usually easier to wait until it is an easy go. If the kid is interested at 18 months then go for it, if not til after three then so be it. By three most kids can go in the potty, but some get off on the fact that the parents really want them to and can't make them. Soft sell with small prizes usually works well after three. Not always. Haven't met a non-developmentally delayed kid who isn't trained before Kindergarten and usually peer pressure in preschool does it.

[SnoopyFan]

My wife, from the Caribbean, was potty trained at 6 months,

It sounds to me as if it was more like your wife's parents were holding her over the toilet at 6 months. IMHO, that's not potty trained.

A 6 month old can't even walk, much less go to the toilet and do whatever it is you've gotta do in there, and there is no way any 6 month old kid is going to think "I have to pee. Must hold it in till Mommy takes me to the bathroom." They're gonna let 'er rip whenever their little bladders get full; they're incapable of controlling that urge at that age. And the only thing a 6 month old baby is going to do with toilet paper is try to eat it.

IMHO, if the kid can't go potty alone (with a little help, of course), they aren't trained. And you definitely can't declare a kid trained when they have no control yet over their bodily functions. The main thing about potty training is the kid learning what it means to have to go to the bathroom; the sensations they feel and what they ought to do when they feel it.

but at least they don't poop in their diapers anymore.

Wtf? Babies are SUPPOSED to do that! I can't imagine forcing potty training *that* early just because parents don't want to change diapers! That's what you sign up for when you have a kid!

It's obviously worked for you and your wife so mileage varies and all that, but that is waaaaaaaaaay out there.

[istara]

Maybe it's a cultural thing. Pakistani colleagues of mine began holding their daughters over the potty at the the age of six months, and they're more or less trained by 12 months. This seems to be a standard thing for their culture. Babies learn very quickly, they probably just learn to associate the feeling of plastic potty on their backside as "go now".

Certainly there is no abuse: the children are not distressed, nor are they punished or harmed in any way for accidents. They just get ready for it earlier.

Don't forget the ENORMOUS hidden pressure in the west for children NOT to be trained early, so they consume as many expensive disposable nappies as possible.

If I had a kid, I would certainly try to train it as early as possible. I cannot see any disadvantage to doing this - so long as it does not distress the child - but I can see a myriad of disadvantages for having a four year old in nappies.

[Blalron]

Originally posted by pkbites
Rod told me that they sat for this kid for about 2 1/2 hours and he found the kid to be bright and talkative. Then, all of a sudden, he just got quiet and was starring at my sister in law. "What's the matter?", she asked. "I'm pooping" was the reply. If he knows what he's doing and is consciously doing it, shouldn't he be trained to go into the bathroom?
What happens when they want to put him into 4 year old kindergarten?
As for my brother being a busy body, I think he tried to phrase it something like "Why doesn't such a big boy use the potty' or something. He only told this story because he was pissed about having to clean up someone elses kid.

That's totally messed up.

[Farmwoman]

Then the potty karma caught up to her.

That's Funny.

This topic has been well thrashed, but I wanted to add a couple of thoughts.

We use cloth diapers (easy-peasy btw...much more convenient that disposables) and my son was nearly three when he trained. I used to think early potty-ing was a benefit of cloth diapering, but I've since heard otherwise from the anecdotal grapevine.

In my experience, learning to toilet is a process, not an event. My son started to show interest at around 19 months, and while we provided ample opportunity and all the accessories, he wasn't ready to let go of the diapering stage for about a year after that.

I think using the loaded term 'lazy parenting' will get one nowhere fast. Some folks are a little less coercive than others and there is a wide continuum of parenting styles from which we can sample. Parents get to choose....others should remain silent. (In-Laws are exempt from the silent rule for some inexplicable reason)

Finally, for daveswifejean. I'm less concerned with the things other people find ridiculous about my parenting choices than I am about the soundness of the choices and the fit they make in our lives. Therefore, my choices will probably be different from those you made. Not lazy. Just different.

[Dangerosa]

Farmwoman....

You are right about toilet learning being a process. Both my kids had managed to do something regarding bodily wastes and a potty or toilet before they were two. Neither wore underwear regularly without Mommy carrying around a change of clothes for another year and a half.

My girlfriends and I (all late breeders) get together and laugh about stuff like this. One newer mom will show up with something like "my wonderful precocious child just put pee in the potty at fourteen months - we will be out of diapers in no time." And the rest of us who have older children laugh and clue her in. Keeps us all honest. Peeing for Prizes was the suggestion of one of my wonderful Girlfriends (didn't work for her daughter either - 3 1/2 when trained - another person who thought she had the answers when her son trained early and easily).

And yes, its a cultural thing. My son is from South Korea, where we are told most children are trained by a year. Friends just adopted a baby from Khazikstan, she was trained at eleven months. The orphanage DID tie her to a potty, and also the kids never wore any pants or diapers at all - just babies on a linoleum floor with someone cleaning up after them like puppies, and a row of potty chairs for when the kids could toddle over and sit on them

[CrankyAsAnOldMan]

Originally posted by daveswifejen
... I know when I walk through a store and see a 5 year old child sitting in the basket sucking a pacifier I think the parent is lazy and would rather her and the child look rediculous than take the damned thing away and deal with the crying for the time it takes. I also have the same view when it comes to the bottle or nursing(not to start that debate, but sorry if the child is able to tell you he wants your boob and can lift your shirt pull it outta the bra and start feeding l.......its time to stop breast feeding)
There of course are all different situations and each individual different, but when the response is THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED or HE/SHE'S JUST A BABYor the best yet THEY WILL DO IT WHEN THEY ARE READY<throws arms up in air> ts time to tak a look around and see who is raising who.


You say "everyone is different" and "it depends" and "it's just my opinion" and "not to start this debate again" and yet you put forth all these rules and are so darned judgmental.

What does it matter to you is someone nurses a toddler? What does it matter to you if a kid still uses a pacifier? Why do you give a damn? Why do feel the need to pass judgment on people you don't know?

Maybe those are the questions you need to be asking, not "Who is raising whom?"

[Kalhoun]

Bwana Bob said, "If a kid wears those pullups there is no "consequence" for going in his pants. Someone's earlier post brought up that fact."

And exactly what is the consequence? Leaving him in shitty pants? You're punishing everyone around the kid at that point.

If a kid looks you in the eye and says he's taking a dump in his pants, I think there might be a psychological problem that should be addressed. I'd at least look into it.

[lee]

Originally posted by daveswifejen
not to start that debate, but sorry if the child is able to tell you he wants your boob and can lift your shirt pull it outta the bra and start feeding l.......its time to stop breast feeding)

My daughter tells me that she wants to nurse, she has pulled my shirt up on occasion, and although she can't work the velcro on my bra, she sometimes is able to hold my breast where she wants it. Would you say she is too old to nurse? What harm is done if a child nurses until it is two or even three? Why do you feel those things indicate that it is high time to wean?

[CrankyAsAnOldMan]

I shouldn't indulge in sarcasm, but the ignorance and judgmentalism in this thread has me feeling like grumpy ol' Mr Gronkle.

So....

No lee, set aside everything the American Academy of Pediatricians tells us, everything we know about nutrition and health and the benefits of extended breastfeeding. Because by gum, the opinion of the person pushing the grocery cart down the aisle ahead of you knows what is best for you and your family and your child.

Not that she wants to start that debate again--just take it at her word; don't argue; don't bother presenting facts that might help us all to better understand other people's parenting choices.

Speaking of which, do you want to call the World Health Organization, or shall I? Someone has to let them know that yet one more person has endorsed the all-important criterion of "if they can ask, they shouldn't breastfeed." I'll bet this one will tip the balance. WHO will need to get started right away changing their recommendations.

[hedra]

Darn, the sarcasm is showing up? I rewrote my whole post to cut back to a bare minimum of sarcasm. Poop. I guess I'll just have to live with discussing the principles here...

daveswifejen... did you intend to assert that 1) all people should do as you do and those who do not are not 'real' parents ('who is raising whom'), and 2) scientific evidence, specialized medical groups (such as the AAP, the AAFP, and WHO), and current understanding of child development should be ignored (or certainly not examined closely) when parenting decisions are to be made?

That's what it sounds like you said.

It also sounds like you believe that making assumptions about the age, medical history, personal history, and other relevant concerns of other people is entirely appropriate behavior. And you are also apparently asserting that because something makes you uncomfortable, it is necessarily wrong. It just is. Bad. Shouldn't do it. Obviously. Duh. ( :smack: Silly me for deciding what is right for me without consulting you.) I'm not even sure which logical fallacy that is, but it has to be covered in one of them...

Great that your methods worked for your kids. Lovely. Now you know all you need to know about - um, your kids. And I hope that they don't grow up to believe different things than you do about all this, because it doesn't sound like it will go very well. And typically, the grandparents don't win those arguments.

Oh, and I don't think there is a 'home' for holier-than-thou parents. Shucky-darn. (oops, some sarcasm slipped through...)

Most 'you must' or 'always' responses to potty training are going to get whacked with the same concerns - 1) assumptions will get you in trouble, 2) rely on some science to back up your assertions, 3) not everyone has to do things the same way you did and that's okay (presuming there is a solid foundation for your alternate), 4) arbitrary limits don't take developmental processes or individuality into account, and 5) you don't know everything about the other person's history and situation (okay, same as 1, assumptions will get you in trouble).

Take some time to do your research, folks. This is the Straight Dope, isn't it? Anecdotal evidence is entertaining, but you'd best have something to back it up with.

[hedra]

oh, and dangerosa, Gabe doesn't fall under the spirited child heading most of the time. Mostly he falls under 'wow, does he have a strong sense of self' (but still fairly easy to manage, not terribly demanding most of the time except in his anxiety areas and even those aren't bad - pretty easy, definite pleaser type, very cautious, asks permission a lot, etc.).

[dangermom]

Re: training in other countries by age 1:
I have heard that Scandinavians do this too, but I don't know if it's still true. Any info on that? I have also read in Dr. Spock that overall, populations that potty-train early tend to have a larger percentage of older kids that wet the bed. I do not know how reliable that is, and would appreciate any further enlightenment.

[KellyM]

Ever dealt with special needs children? I've known quite a few who weren't potty-trained by age six (some never train at all). It's not always obvious on a quick examination if a child is special needs, either; they don't come with stickers. There's a lot of variation even between normal children, too. I've also read that boys train later on average than girls. It would be interesting to see if there are genetic tendencies involved here.

In any case, branding parents as "lazy" simply because one of their children is a late potty-trainer is absurd. While it's possible that this is the case, it's equally possible that there are legitimate issues that could cause "delayed" training, for which such a nasty description is simply cruel.

I had a very hard time potty training as a child; the process left me with a neurosis (a phobia) that I still haven't fully defeated. My parents have never said much about this, but my mother has said a few things that suggest that they started on me too soon. (It's also possible that this is connected to my gender dysphoria; my memories from that age are too spotty to tell and my parents have never said anything that sheds any indepedent light.)

I think disposable diapers make potty-training harder: the child doesn't feel as wet when they pee because the diaper wicks the moisture away from the skin. I've seen people claim (although I don't know the basis for the claim) that using disposables will extend the expected time to potty-train by a six months or more.

[lee]

http://www.hon.ch/News/HSN/512577.html

"For those children starting toilet training before 27 months, the process took a year or more, but if they were started between 27 and 36 months, it took five to 10 months," says Dr. Nathan Blum, a developmental pediatrician at Children's Hospital and lead author of the study. The research appears in the April issue of Pediatrics

In light of that study, why would a parent start toilet training before age two? It doesn't seem to make a diffference.

[Dangerosa]

Well, not to jump to the other side of the fence on this, but statistical evidence is great - except when you are trying to extrapolate to an individual. In other words SOME children might be ready at 15 months to potty train and take a week.

[SnoopyFan]

not to start that debate, but sorry if the child is able to tell you he wants your boob and can lift your shirt pull it outta the bra and start feeding .......its time to stop breast feeding

I agree. There's something about a kid walking up to his/her mom to nurse that creeps me out: it's not like we're in some 3rd world country and breastmilk is one of the few sources of nutrition available to us. Every woman I've known (personally) that nursed for a long time were doing it more for themselves than the kid, IMHO. Bragging rights and stuff (plus they had a screw loose anyway). I'm aware that this is anecdotal and I'm sure there are normal nursing moms out there, blah blah blah. Chill out.

And ditto on the 5 year olds with pacifiers. If you throw the damn thing away, that's the end of it. Why parents won't do this is beyond me.

[MissBHaven]

Originally posted by dangermom
I don't really feel myself in a position to comment on this, but maybe it would be OK to ask something that I, as a SAHM, have always wondered: how in the world do you potty-train a kid who is in daycare? Does the center have a sort of program, and the parents are expected to make an effort to support it at home? Does the center try to accommodate the parents' style? What if you can only afford a pretty mediocre place, and they don't make much effort at all?

My youngest was in daycare full time and potty trained by age 2 1/2. They had us all bring pull ups and they scheduled regular potty breaks for the kids--every two hours if I remember correctly. If the kid had an accident they cleaned them up with out any fuss and kept them on the same schedule with the other little ones. It worked out great! As soon as they 'graduated' from pull ups they got to bring in regular under things (with a spare of course--they are still going to have the occasional accident!). The kids were usually all potty trained between 2-3 yrs old... they couldn't move up into the "big kid's" (4 yr old) room unless they were out of pull ups & that was a pretty big deal for them.

I don't know what you would do if you didn't agree with the daycare's program-I would talk to the director first and then stay on them until they implement a program that works for the majority. You have to be involved and stay involved to make any change work in that type of environment. The squeaky wheel gets the oil and all that.

[hedra]

SnoopyFan, have you ever considered that they might have tried that approach and found it caused more problems than it solved?

BTW, I have no problem with you being creeped out by extended nursing. Heck, I was, too. Seriously. I had two close friends who did it, and I just couldn't get my brain around the idea. Very much an 'ewww' on the personal level, but I also knew the developmental facts and said, hey, if they want to, fine, but I am not going there. Ugh. Until I ended up doing it, and not because I was all thrilled by the prospect - I thought it was mighty weird, remember? So I do understand the perspective. But I don't agree with saying that a parent is necessarily being a lazy or poor parent just because something they does creeps me out. I need a lot more evidence than just my discomfort level. And I'm willing to put aside my discomfort and not judge simply from discomfort, but instead cut them some slack and say 'it must be working for them or they wouldn't bother'. Far less angst on my part when I did that, too. I mean, why should I be all up in arms over someone else's parenting decision, as long as it fits our current understanding of development? I don't go all disgusted by moms who use formula, either - they have their reasons, too. I start by assuming they are functional, rational, appropriate to their situation reasons. Much less pain in the world when I do so.

So, as for why parents won't just throw it away, re: the pacifier? Most do, or didn't need to, which is exactly why it is unusual to see kids with them at that age. So the vast majority of parents have already done what you suggest. How great for you! Many parents have situations that fit exactly with what you'd propose.

Which leaves the few remaining ones for whom that is not an appropriate choice, or who tried it and ended up with a bigger problem than the pacifier, so reverted, and so forth. In other words, they have their reasons. Do you really need to know each individual one? How about assuming that the parents had a good reason. I'm sure they know they get nasty looks from people. Why would they put up with that if they didn't have a pretty solid reason?

Some may indeed be lazy, some are probably nearly pathologically trying to avoid upsetting their child, and some have very sound, logical, situation-appropriate, developmentally appropriate reasons to do other than what you would prefer. Typically, parents do things that are functional at the time. They may or may not regret it later, but they respond to the situation as it arises. WRT my older son nursing past a year (and he was walking quite well at 10 months, so weaning then would have been below the minimum age recommended by any pediatric association - again, walking as a marker is arbitrary), I did try to wean him at a year. It resulted in misery all around. Because of his high anxiety level, without that comfort mechanism (and probably some chemical impacts from the breastmilk itself), his anxiety went through the roof. He barely let go of me after I dropped just one session. And when I relented, he went back to his easy-going, independant, curious, exploratory self. Hmm. Reasons to wean? 'I think it is weird to keep nursing.' Reasons to keep nursing? 'Sanity all around.' You already know which one won. Most people hadn't a clue that I was nursing a toddler, not that I hid it, but toddlers just don't usually nurse that often. And most people don't ask. You probably know a lot of those normal nursing moms, but don't realize it.

I do know a few women with screws loose who happened to nurse past a year. I also know a few who are holier-than-thou about everything including their nursing duration. But frankly, both of those are entirely independant of the duration of breastfeeding. I know plenty of women with screws loose who never breastfed, or weaned before a year, and vast numbers who are holier-than-thou who didn't extended nurse. Even correlation on that point is pretty shaky, you won't have me buying causality.

This is, of course, all beside the point. The point being that you are entitled to be bothered by other people's parenting choices. But when you start making assumptions about the value and quality of their parenting from your off-the-cuff evaluation of one or two variables, all of which are actually within developmental norms (and are also within the current pediatric advice), you are way more out of line than they are.

Perhaps the chilling should be done by you, as well?

(sorry if I am coming off cranky, but my son is weaning, and engorgement makes me grouchy)

[hedra]

and pardon the grammar (something they does... oy.)

[pippi]

I worked in a Montessori toddler class where the youngest was about 15 months and the oldest around 2 1/2. Our method of potty training was labor intensive, but simple and stress-free for the children, even if sometimes messy for the adults.

Basically, parents provided MANY sets of extra-thick cotton undies, and the children wore these during the day, instead of diapers (even the brand-new 15 month old). (They'd usually go without pants inside - just a shirt, thick undies, and non-slip socks.)

We "toileted" the children frequently during the day - it was part of our routine, so it was never a huge deal - if they didn't have to go, they'd at least get a chance to sit on the pot for a couple of minutes, maybe check out the flusher and whatnot. If they weren't into it, we would encourage them to try it, but never push them to it. [We were lucky enough to have a toddler-sized toilet, by the way; in the normal situation, where there is only an adult-sized toilet, we'd have broad steps and an insert that fits inside the seat so that they wouldn't have to climb up to a terrifyingly high distance and then balance precariously over a huge pool of water, naked...think of how scary that must be!]

The idea was to get them to think that sitting on the toilet was normal, as well as for them to 'get in touch' with their bodily functions. Urinating or defecating in cotton undies is much more uncomfortable than it is in diapers, and it cannot be ignored! Of course, it is the adult's responsibility to help the child change out of soiled clothing immediately. This way the child recognizes that it's uncomfortable to have urine or feces next to the skin; that there is a place for both of those to go [because we tell them when they sit on the toilet!], and that the whole thing is not a big deal.

We also have no rewards or punishments attached to this: otherwise it can become an ordeal based around power plays between adult and child, rather than a normal part of the daily routine. Sometimes children love it and get it right away, sometimes they don't. If they see stress or anger about this issue coming from the adult, it's going to affect how they feel about the process. We felt it was really important not to make it "good" to go in the toilet and "bad" to go in diapers - that just opens a whole new can of worms.

Another friend had a 2.5 year old come into her classroom still in diapers. The child and her mother were under a lot of stress about this issue; the mother was issuing threats and promising parties for dry diapers! My friend used this technique and after 2 weeks, the child was potty trained and *happy*. (So was my friend!)

Would this work for every child? I think so, but not necessarily in two weeks, of course. (We still had children in diapers/pull-ups for naptime.) I know toddlers who got it within a couple of days, but I also know that it can take months. Everyone has their own time schedule. Even doing it a different way, taking the pressure off of the child is essential. It's interesting how much emotion becomes attached to this topic. Anyway, I have always been impressed by this way of doing it; it seems to take so much pressure off of both the child and the adult.

(As for laziness: I think it's MUCH harder work to clean up a four-year-old's poopy diaper than it is to help a 2 year old sit on the toilet every half and hour!) ;)

[pippi]

um, that's "half an hour"

And I realized that when I said "every" child, I am not taking into account children with special needs, because I haven't worked with any so far. I don't have direct experience with a physically handicapped or very emotionally troubled child, and I'm sure that would be different. It may not be, though; I just don't have that knowledge. This has worked for children within the so-called "normal" range, which varies a lot, of course.

[SnoopyFan]

But I don't agree with saying that a parent is necessarily being a lazy or poor parent just because something they does creeps me out.

I never meant to suggest that extended nursers are bad parents or lazy, no way, and IIRC, I haven't accused anyone of being a bad parent/lazy in this thread. All I was saying is that extended nursing, to me, is weird, and that parents with 5 year olds still sucking pacifiers need to suck it up and throw it away.

But when you start making assumptions about the value and quality of their parenting from your off-the-cuff evaluation of one or two variables, all of which are actually within developmental norms (and are also within the current pediatric advice), you are way more out of line than they are.

See above. All I did was agree with what daveswife said.

[Dangerosa]

pippi,

Tried that with my daughter when she was about 3 1/2. We gave up after a month (those things will leak messy poop). There is only so many times you can clean poop off a couch before your husband threatens to divorce you.

BTW, my daughter did have really messy unformed bowel movements, coupled with occational constipation (she seems to have inheireted my lower GI), which the peditrician thought probably contributed to the late potty traiing. (But she was stubborn as a mule and it was a power thing as well).

[hedra]

Sorry, SnoopyFan, I didn't make myself clear. I don't think YOU were saying that parents were lazy. (But you did imply that there was a link between extended nursing and having a screw loose, despite the 'sure there are others who aren't', because it implies that is an exception).

I was actually trying to say "I hear you on the weird thing, really, just be careful not to equate the two so closely". Ah brevity, most useful. My bad.

And then I was going on from there to say that when people ('you' should have been 'one') label things that are different than they think they should be as lazy, etc., they are making judgements without data, which isn't exactly genius thinking. There, if you were agreeing on that point with daveswifejen, well, she pretty directly implied that people aren't real parents if they don't do things her way. If you agree, then back you go into the tar pit. But you didn't so much sound like you agreed with the labels, as the discomfort. And that, I agree, is your business.

And then I got back to you (specific) combined with you (generic) - the 'cut them some slack'. There's usually more going on than you are aware of, behind the scenes, for anything that is outside norm. Why judge? Chances are you'll be missing critical information anyway. And you'd really suggest that a developmentally delayed 5-year-old should have their pacifier thrown away? Really? (as noted, they don't have stickers on their foreheads...)

So, forgive the mishmash - I really didn't think you were doing more than agreeing with the discomfort, and asking a genuine question about what the parents of 5-year-olds-with-pacifiers were thinking. I got rolling from there.

[pippi]

Dangerosa,

Good point about the messy poop thing - we would suspend use of undies if a child had diarrhea (of course, being a school, we'd probably ask the parents to keep the child at home if she were really ill). Kind of have to balance the potty training with good hygiene, right. Most of the time, you can catch them right after they poop, but if they're sick or have GI problems, it will be all over the place before you know it. (And sometimes, it is regardless of what you do!)

The other thing is that we began this process with much younger, smaller children, so that the, ahem, amount of cleanup would be that much less. I think that may be a key point.

[daveswifejen]

lesson learned..... my opinion was all it was meant to be, first time here and the topic did spark my interest. Maybe I didn't word things properly, maybe my opinions were not needed, and I will apologize for any anger or irritation I caused anyone by stating my opinions. I guess I have a way of believeing because it DID work for me, and perhaps I am narrow minded in the "pacifier" issue, no there are no stickers on thier forheads stating there could be a reason, emotional, physical, or anyother reason....my statement was based on the walking talking fully functioning children who are still sucking....do I care that the parents are lazy, nope, do I care they may be working 3 jobs to support that kid and would rather it suck a binky than see the poor kid cry.nope. It matters none to me either way because in the confines of my own home I have it the way I want. Do I have an opinion, yes, does what someone else does with thier child affect me......no, its an opinion, thats all i was giving was MY opinion, not a guideline to child rearing....if it came across as though it was my way or you all suck, then again I do apologize.

[CrankyAsAnOldMan]

That's quite a mea culpa, daveswifejen. Thank you. Sorry I came down so hard on you. Touched a nerve. I have been interested in parenting issues since getting knocked up, and I've done a lot of reading about some of these issues from cross-cultural, sociological, and even economic perspectives. What I learned is how much we don't know, and how much is relative. I get on my high horse about it. Not one of my more flattering traits.

[China Guy]

all I can say is bless the potty training gods because China bambina was pretty dang easy before reaching two. She wets the bed once every 2-3 months these days (usually when grandma gives her a lot to drink and that wasn't noticed and didn't make sure she went before going to bed). I'm guessing that wetting the bed at 3 1/2 a couple times a year is pretty normal behavior. Just asking if anyone else as this type of experience?

[hedra]

daveswifejen, many posters don't have the grace to come back and say 'oops, I came across wrong'. I'm quite glad you do. It is a lesson pretty much all of us had to learn at some time or other (that sometimes our word choice implies something we didn't mean... heck, see above on my last post!). Good for you for coming back and saying so instead of going away in a huff.

If you don't look down your nose at others for their choices that differ from yours, then there's no beef. (though there's no way you'd know that my highly intelligent, advanced-motor-skills, extremely verbal child has a borderline-clinical anxiety disorder, either - some things truly cannot be assessed without a professional, so even the walking talking apparently normal kids whose parents appear to be sane can have issues you don't see... easier, for me, to assume that there's a good reason, and give them the benefit of my compassion for whatever they're dealing with. But I guess that's my way, partly because I learned it the hard way.)

ChinaGuy, as for wetting the bed, a few times a year until they are 5 or 6 seems pretty common. At 3.5, hardly a blip on the radar. Being sick, being over-tired, and being excited or stressed can all throw the system a bit. If that only happens a few times a year, that's pretty decent.

[Farmwoman]

There's something about a kid walking up to his/her mom to nurse that creeps me out: it's not like we're in some 3rd world country and breastmilk is one of the few sources of nutrition available to us.

So the test for whether or not we should offer our children the biologically appropriate nutrition through the toddler years is essentially cultural? Thanks for clearing that up for me...I always thought as much. [/smug]

As one who nursed a nearly-3 year-old, it seems to me that you are objecting to lack of 'nursing manners' and not the nursing itself. Most families that I know who practice sustained nursing encourage their nurslings to wait until they are alone to ask to nurse -- not unlike the way I ask my son to whisper "I have to go poopies". Not because there is anything shameful about either process, but because we like to show a little conformity in social settings.

But that's just us.

Now, once you start to suggest that our sense of social nice-nice should overrule our logic and intuition about what is best for our children; once you imply that it is just wrong to nurse walking/talking children because of our social ick factor, you step over a very dangerous line for this mother bear.

[Q.N. Jones]

Every source I've ever read has said that if the kid has awareness of the urge to void, that he or she is physically ready to train.

Sounds like this 4 year old has that awareness.

I know that some kids are resistant to training, but when I babysat, the resistant kids were also the kids of the parents who didn't handle accidents and potty-training fears very well. The more the parents lost their patience, the more resistant the kid got. The parents who praised "going in the potty", soothed fears, and didn't blow up over accidents had kids far more amenable to potty training. So I'm inclined to think that a lot of "psychological resistance" in the kid is actually due to the parents being bad at training.

Furthermore, I'd be annoyed too if I agreed to babysit for a four year old and then found out the kid wasn't potty-trained. I've personally never known a four year old who wasn't, and it would be a big (unwelcome) shock to find out otherwise.

[acrossthesea]

Depends on the kid to an extend. My 4 year old boy wasn't daytime trained until he was 3 1/2 because he was at an extreme bossy "no" stage before then and would simply announce "I'm not going potty because I don't want to!" Now he's over that but often forgets when he has to pee and wets his pants about once a day. He is still not nighttime trained because of his sister (see below), but never poops in his pants anymore.

His sister is nearly 3. I have no idea when she will be potty trained because she lacks comprehension of basic concepts. She talks a lot but her understanding of things is so limited that knowing when to go potty is still beyond her. She often asks to go, but always right after her brother has gone and she's always wet already. She doesnt usually sit on the toilet, just goes into the bathroom, takes off her diaper, and says "i'm done!"

Nights are an issue because if her older brother went to the bathroom at night (if we left the door open) she'd get out and wreck the house and hurt herself while we all sleep. I know this for a fact cause it's happened several times before. If we gave them a potty in their room she'd spill the contents everywhere and play in it. She's still at a stage where she does these things and thinks of crap as a toy. So we're sort of baffled as to what to do to get her trained and to get our 4 year old able to go at night.

[BrandyFine]

I like your last post farmwoman. The attitudes in the US about breastfeeding disgust me.

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but some children are slower than others with training or are delayed in certain ways. Few end up wearing diapers to high school (or still nursing either) so lightening up and letting people raise their children is in order. When mine were new I was told by the mother of a successful local policeman that he crapped his drawers till he was almost five, and that I mustn't let myself be driven crazy by bossy, nosy people. I love her to this day, and I never did go crazy. It passes one way or the other.

[daveswifejen]

One thing there that is true and that is the social settings of the nursing. I am not to say what age it should be done(weaning), and my comment was inappropriate, or not thought out well enough before I opened the big mouth of mine. But I will give the reason for the statement. I have a 5 year old cousin who is still nursing, and if the mother was doing it in the "private" way I "FEEL"(again MY personal opinion, not to be mistaken as a judgement) I would not know and would not have been put in the position to feel "weird" about the beyond toddler who breast feeds.
No it is not in MY personal comfort zone, and yet some people do choose to feed for long periods of time, I don't know the reasons, I just wish I wasn't sitting across the table from it and forced to watch the 5 year old literally undress his mother for a "sippy, and expose her entire breast either one or both as she could care less because its NATURAL.
So I ask this, and ONLY as a very ignorant person in regards to breast feeding(I bottle fed all 4 of mine) why do some people feel its so natural that it doesn't matter who sees? Please don't misread me, I am just asking for others opinions to perhaps help me UNDERSTAND the reasons for the dinner time feedings while at the table with a group of people. I would imagine MOST of america does it in private(and the teeny baby's that hide behind a blankie are not what I am talking about either.)
Please if anyone could, help me understand the social acceptance of this that I may be lacking because I chose to NOT breastfeed.
:smack: :smack: :smack:

[CrankyAsAnOldMan]

Fair question, daveswifejen, and thanks for posting it. I guess it depends on what you mean by "it doesn't matter who sees."

Breastfeeding is natural and normal, and is as valid a way to address a hungry baby's needs as bottle feeding. Some would argue even more valid. From this perspective, some moms feel that they ought to be able to nurse wherever they are, certainly anyplace where other moms would feel free using a bottle. Why should a nursing mom excuse herself and leave the room when a non-nursing mom can stay and enjoy the company?

Now, I say that with a few caveats:

First of all, I think this presumes a healthy, straightforward attitude about breastfeeding that isn't , in actuality, very widespread in the U.S. As much as I believe people ought to think seeing some breastflesh is no big deal when a baby is being fed, we're not there yet. This has caused enough trouble for nursing moms that some states have had to pass legislation saying a mom can nurse wherever she is. That it's not "indecent exposure" to have one's breast exposed for nursing. That sort of thing. Of course you're not going to whip out a state statute at a dinner party and insist everyone get with the program. Some moms might just think it's time for people to get over their backwards attitudes, so they nurse "openly" even though it might make some people a little edgy. Not everyone has an agenda, though. Some people just want to feed a hungry baby!

Second, it's important to keep in mind that most moms make good efforts to be discreet. They cover themselves and baby as well as practically possible. With most nursing moms, it's not that you're SEEING the breast--you're simply aware of the breast because you know the baby's feeding. And then we're getting into the fact that some people are simply squeamish about breastfeeding--which is their own personal issue, and not the sort of thing you ought to inflict on mothers (who are simnply doing their best) and their hungry babies.

Third, not all nursing moms are open and breastfeed anywhere. I nursed in front of my own family (Dad included). With my husband's family, however, I wasn't sure either of us would feel comfortable, so I left the room and nursed in private. Logically and practically I should not have had to do this, but, well, reality was different. I also didn't nurse very often in public. I just felt vulnerable.

As for nursing a toddler (or preschooler)--I feel there is nothing wrong with it, and the medical community backs me up on this. However, all the moms I know who nurse toddlers are aware that not everyone feels this way, and they not only nurse in private, neither they nor their children talk about it. They work out something with their children where nursing is private time and done only at certain times of the day. I only know about the nursing because they know and trust me. It sounds like you've met someone who is a lot more open about it--either because she doesn't care, or because she feels breastfeeding a toddler openly is an act of advocacy for breastfeeding. But frankly, I think those moms are pretty rare.

I find it's a lot easier to be an advocate when it's not your breast. My girlfriend was nursing in the food court of a shopping mall the other day. I probably wouldn't have done it when my son was a baby. . . but I told her "If one of these backwards idiots says something to you, I'm prepared to leap over the table and whap them with my handbag." LOL. I'm all for it when it's someone else. I'm a wuss.

[hedra]

If it is the manners, I agree. There's quite a bit of backlash manners loss going around. (I think it will adjust on its own when there are fewer women who feel they are being told that breastfeeding itself is somehow wrong or bad when someone asks them to be discreet - because usually they aren't asked to be discreet, they are asked to 'do that in the bathroom', or 'you can't do that here', as if it is the act itself that is disgusting.)

For some women, however, I think they become so desentisized to their breasts being exposed at home, they lose the social convention. I have to remind my son not to pull up my shirt in public, just because we ARE in public. Even with my in-laws around, I require him to nurse discreetly, even though I know he hates having the fabric of my shirt resting on his face. Same reasons I don't really bug them (too much) about other behaviors at home (with no company), but with company, and when out in public, social conventions do come into play. My job to teach him that rules vary by location, condition, who is present, etc.

Toddlers can either learn to nurse discreetly, or the mom has the responsibility to manage the situation effectively. That may mean leaving the table and going to nurse in the car, or in another room. I've done that, too, when my sons are in a really stubborn phase. But I've also nursed a toddler sitting right next to my Brother-in-law, only to have him later call me, concerned because his daughter had become very sick shortly after our visit, and he 'knew I wasn't nursing anymore' so he was afraid my son would be sicker even than she and wanted to let me know to keep an eye out. Oh yeah? It isn't like he doesn't know what it looks like, and I was right next to him. So I'm pretty discreet, I guess. His wife (my sister-in-law) is probably the least discreet nurser I know, personally - in her kids' infancy, her shirt would be up to her armpit. Partly because she needed to see what she was doing to get them latched on right, but it was still impressive exposure in the :eek: kind of way. But later, and also when she nursed past a year, she would leave the room with her daughter (I don't remember with her son), and nurse elsewhere. Given that even my very-who-cares self was somewhat taken aback by the exposure level she was comfortable with, that seems appropriate.

Underneath it all, I think the exposure has a few different causes. 1) people becoming desensitized, 2) a struggle with latch or positioning in infancy (which I can easily understand), 3) over-reaction/defensiveness/defiance (that is, insecurity) about nursing at all, and 4) half my master's thesis... Which will take another paragraph (or 2 or 5) to explain:

My MA thesis dealt with code-switching, which is a linguistic behavior (at least that's the typical approach). Code-switching is when people use a certain language, accent, vocabulary, or set of topics with one group, and a different set with another, swtiching between 'codes' as the situation, location, group membership, and context change. Code-switching is why people pick up accents of the people they are around, or drop accents from 'home' areas when they are away, why they use jargon with people who know the jargon, but not with those who don't. Code-switching is a way of stating membership in a group, saying 'I am the same as you', even if you are different in a lot of other ways. Not code-switching can be a way of saying 'I am different than you or member of another group FIRST and this one only second'. That meta-message makes us uncomfortable. It is the same discomfort reaction we have when someone always talks about their religion or children, no matter the setting, or makes us roll our eyes when someone always talks about their work, or their hobbies, no matter who they are talking to. They are stating by their topic choice that they are X (religious or parents or astrophysicists) before all else, and they are not joining the group they are with as members first of that group.

For example, when I am at work, I talk about work stuff with everyone (we are in the group 'co-workers'). I talk about car troubles with the woman who has a similar commute (we are in the group 'long-commute coworkers'). I talk about kids and families with the people who have (or are interested in) kids and family stuff (we are in the group 'working parents or propsective working parents'). I talk about religion with nobody (no 'religous coworkers' classification in my workplace, or at least not pagan ones). When a group of coworkers who don't know each other well start talking, we start from our jobs. Once we have established that 'membership', we may individualize - ask about family, chitchat about the commute that morning, etc. If the group as a whole has a second identity (working parents, for example), that subject then becomes one that establishes continued membership in the same group, and is open for general chitchat. It is within the code set that identifies us as like one-another.

But we all know people who start talking about their kids, or their health troubles, or whatever, regardless of whether they are with people who care or not. They are not code-switching, either through lack of skill or ability (which varies substantially), or because they truly see themselves as members of some other group before all others, regardless of the social implications of that. So people who retain an urban accent in a business-neutral accent environment may be saying 'I refuse to relinquish my identity as an urbanite, even here'. It can be off-putting. Someone who always inserts their religion into non-religious conversations is saying 'this is my identity, and I identify there before I identify with you'. And so forth. Whether they are doing so intentionally is really beside the point - they might never have noticed, they might not have the language skills (such as losing an accent can be difficult), they might not have the social awareness (nerds, for example - geeks at least usually know when to geek and when not to, IMHO), they might have so many group identities that include that aspect that they didn't notice this one didn't, or they might be doing it out of insecurity (clinging to the identity that makes them feel the most secure). But regardless of the reason, the result is that everyone else feels uncomfortable - the social cohesion is disrupted, because everyone but that person is using their social code to say "I am like you, I am a member of this group, you and I can relate (at least on this subject in this situation)" and one person is not.

So, long story short, we are uncomfortable with people who do things, say things, or act in ways that are not conforming with the social setting, membership of the group, and features of the group, because they are highlighting that they are NOT like us, they are NOT willing to be like us, or are unaware that there is even an US involved. Very uncomfortable, very divisive. (Which brings back the whole 'bragging rights' issue - it can, indeed, be a statement, even if it isn't the statement they want to make.)

I do know people who nurse in public as a defiance statement - they want people to be exposed to public nursing in order to be desensitized more, because it is natural, and it is healthy, and it 'should' be acceptable. Cultural re-training, basically. But most of the ones I know who have that thread (which is typically secondary to just needing to feed their child where they happen to be), also do so with at least a modicum of discretion. Nursing is what they want acceptable, not total exposure. IF total exposure happens for a moment, by accident, they don't want people to have to freak, but they are also trying to reduce the risk of that by being thoughtful - and yet not eliminate it by going to peculiar extremes, either. ... and then there are the few who truly have an 'I don't care what anyone thinks, I'm going to act in public like I act at home' attitude, which puts off even the other long-term breastfeeders. Kind of an anarchist approach - not wanting to modify the social norms, but live without them entirely. Fortunately, the ones who are doing that intentionally are pretty few and far between. Unfortunately, they're really visible to a lot of people.

Does that explain a bit more? I think most of the time, IME, people just stop paying attention, because they've lost ALL boundaries regarding exposure (over time), and haven't re-established normative ones. I certainly could not care less if someone sees my breast. But that doesn't mean I don't put some effort into being discreet. It isn't for ME, it is for the sake of others that I follow some kind of social self-control, code-switch, etc. If I'm around a bunch of breastfeeding moms, I'm far less discreet, because I know they're unlikely to care. But throw in one grandma (different generation), or a woman who didn't breastfeed (unless she says directly that she doesn't mind), or a man, or even any kid over toddler, and you'll find me annoying my child by looping my finger in my shirt edge and holding it next to his face so he can't grab it and extend his arm up to my shoulder level. Perhaps you could take your sister/sister-in-law aside and tell her that it makes you uncomfortable, not because you think she shouldn't do it, but because it seems an inappropriate behavior in a mixed group - just like you don't care if kids burp after eating, but after a certain age, they should say excuse me and try to keep their burps a bit discreet. (that analogy shouldn't be offensive to her, I hope.) Good luck.

[hedra]

(the indiscretion part is what I was referring to there, in the analogy to burping - not the nursing at all. Basically, 'the level of discretion makes me uncomfortable, can that be modified for mixed-groups?')

[An Arky]

Originally posted by Kalhoun
...
If a kid looks you in the eye and says he's taking a dump in his pants, I think there might be a psychological problem that should be addressed. I'd at least look into it.


Huh? The kid's 4. Kids that age will tell you stuff like that. They have yet to acquire the "shame" of discussing bodily functions, etc. After, my son potty trained (at age 3), he would take a dump in the toilet, then come running to me wanting me to go look at it...

[Coil]

Yeah, wanting to show what they have "produced" is quite normal. My daughter used to count hers and then proudly announce "There's Daddy, Mommy and me!". If neccessary she added more relatives to the count. :)

[An Arky]

Oh, yeah, Coil. Mine used to ponder what kind of animals it was shaped like, named them after family and friends. I know this is getting TMI, but he even made up a song about poop (much to his mom's chagrin):

Here on Planet Poopy
Everything is brown
Here on Planet Poopy
Everybody frowns
Here on Planet Poopy
Everything is stinky
Here on Planet Poopy
Everything goes (farting noise)

[SnoopyFan]

Poop songs today, An Arky, Broadway musicals tomorrow!

I bet Andrew Lloyd Weber has written a poop song or two ...