Warning for all men: Beware of this woman!

[techchick68]

You have to check this out!
http://www.crazy-bitch.com/

This chick gives us women a bad name.

[WallyM7]

I reserve my judgement until I've heard both sides.

The guy might be a supreme asshole and got what was coming to him.

[Bluepony]

When I was single I had an uncanny affinity for attracting psycho women. The present Mrs. Bluepony is a God-given exception that I get on my knees every day and thank the Lord for because of my past track record.

Once, during my single/divorced years, I woke up one morning to find the word "Asshole" painted in red nail polish on my mailbox. I was more embarrassed by the spectacle my neighbors were treated to since I owned my own house in a respectable neighborhood. The fact that I am sometimes an asshole is something I will freely admit to.

Be that as it may, I gotta agree with Wally on this one. This is only one side of the story, this clown could be a complete dick. I'm kind of leaning towards that since he decided to go public and get on Howard Stern. Yeah, like, he is the only guy who's had his apartment/car/personal effects trashed by a jealous/spurned/dumped girl? C'mon dude, take a number and wait in line.

------------------
...send lawyers, guns, and money...

Warren Zevon

[techchick68]

LOL Wally,

I for one, would never conduct myself in such a manner. Granted the guy was cheating on his girlfriend, but this goes beyond any reason...

He was on The View today, he seemed like an average guy (course hard to tell on a few minutes of air time.)

Still, painting everything he owns is highly neurotic if you ask me.

She painted EVERYTHING, including the clothes (I guess) in his drawers....they came to the conclusion that she did $50,000 worth of damage...people suffer less in monetary damages from fires!

This is poor judgement and if a woman or a man goes to this extreme to make a point, they need serious therapy...

[Road Rash]

This guy got what he deserves? No way. Sure he was an asshole for what he did to his girl, but what a psycho bitch. Regardless of how bad the relationship has gone, you don't screw around with others property. You don't screw around with a person's job. You get over it. If that had happened to me, I would not have built a website around it. I would file a police report and get that bitch sent to jail.

[techchick68]

cooldude,

She faces a felony conviction, he is waiting on the District Attorney's office, or something like that.

I think, if she was that wacked out, regardless of what other problems they may have had, she should have simply walked away from the relationship and get on with her life.

There is no time that this behavior is acceptable.

But what do I know? I am a woman < giggle >

[phouka]

Chalk up two more entries in the "People I'm Thankful Are Not In My Life" column.

[manhattan]

I'm with Wally. I want to hear both sides. I also want to find out if she's cute enough that it was worth it.

------------------
NYC IRL III (http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/006163.html)
is on April 15th. Do you have what it takes?

[aenea]

This guy freely admits to having an affair, and wonders why she went psycho on him? Prick!

Granted, destruction of property is not acceptable. But her over-the-top reaction is hardly unusual.

------------------
Carpe Jugulum

[Arnold Winkelried]

Well, I've read the story and the guy sounds like no prize. I don't have much sympathy for him.

His girlfried of six years finds out he's having an affair with his secretary, the secretary admits to it (and it's true), but he still denies it.

He finds out the girlfriend and the secretary are at his house, so he goes back to the office, takes the secretary's spare car key and goes back to his house to drive away the secretary's car. "I figured if they enjoyed being together so much I was going take her car and leave them both stranded together until the morning." The two women see him drive off, run after him but can't catch him. "At 11:00am (the next day) my friend gets a voicemail message saying that my apt is being trashed. I think it’s a ploy to get me home so I ignored message."

This man obviously handled the situation very well. I'm amazed his girlfriend would try to damage his personal belongings. :rolleyes:

[mouthbreather]

For all you who think he got what he deserved, what other actions would warrant having all your personal shit destroyed?

I'm not talking about violence in any sort of way, or anything that would result in her having physical or monetary damages, because then I might think that he got what he deserved.

While he certainly is no saint, she is a fucking loon and was way out of line.

[techchick68]

I found out that my then-fiance was cheating on me, I didn't trash his house, I called my dad up and asked him to send me some money to come home.

It's much easier to walk away from a situation than it is to use revenge (in this case paint) to inflict pain.

I don't agree that what he did was right, and no, I don't know her side of the story, but can anyone honestly say that this is appropriate behavior in any circumstance?

I have a friend who was beaten repeatedly by a boyfriend, but she didn't trash his stuff or shoot him (which under her circumstances could have been legally ok -- self-defense) She got rid of the bafoon and got on with her life.

(damn, now this is going to turn into a debate LOL)

[WallyM7]

And what kind of yutz would advertise this turn of events?

"Look what she did to my stuff, boo-hoo
whimper whine sob cry sniffle."

The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking, "You go, girl!"

[Shayna]

All I have to say to this woman is THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for doing what I wish I would have had the balls to do a time or two to cheating boyfriends myself! As far as I'm concerned she just scored one for all the women of the world who've had their hearts ripped to shreds by thoughtless, cruel, jerks who think that it's ok to stick their dicks in another woman's body even though they're in a committed relationship.
...you don't screw around with others property. You don't screw around with a person's job...Uhm, I'm sorry, but I think it's WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WORSE to screw around with someone's LIFE! Who knows how many STDs he could have brought home, let alone the risk of AIDS. As far as I'm concerned, there is NO worse violation than the violation of someone's physical person. His clothes be damned - THOSE can be replaced. Someone's life CAN NOT!

I can tell you this, after the last rat bastard cheated on me, I decided that if there is ever a next one (God forbid), I'll bring HIM up on charges of reckless endangerment.

Yeah, I'm having a bad day. So sue me.

------------------
"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." - Anne Frank

[Shayna]

And the more I think about it, the more amazed (and a bit pissed off) by all the people here who've basically said, "yeah, ok, so he wasn't such a nice guy cuz he cheated on her, but OH MY GAWD -- SHE PAINTED HIS CLOTHES! HOW SICK IS THAT?? SHE SHOULD ROT IN JAIL FOR RUINING HIS CLOTHES!"

Gee, let's see, violating someone's body and potentially putting their life at risk compared to painting someone's dockers. Yeah, I can definitely see where y'all would think the latter is worse.

NOT!

------------------
"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." - Anne Frank

[Bricker]

Unfortunately, it's mot smart... no matter how satisfying it may feel.

In the end, she may have a criminla conviction, a civil judgement and/or restitution to pay, so the end result is that the boyfriend can buy himself a bunch of new stuff.

If you're willing to pay that high a price for the satisfaction... then, I guess, it's worth it.

Being cheated on hurts... a hell of a lot. I know this. But surely there's a way to exact revenge that doesn't involve criminal liability...

- Rick

[Sue Duhnym]

Psycho, yes she probably is.

Does he deserve part of the blame? Yes, he was fucking his secretary for goodness sake! He's definitely not a genius.

Does his secretary deserve part of the blame too? Sure! What do you think she was doing with his girlfriend all day? Probably telling stories.

I think they're all nuts, personally.

------------------
A woman needs four animals in her life: A mink in the closet, a Jaguar in the garage, a tiger in the bedroom, and an ass to pay for it all.
---Zsa Zsa Gabor

[Billdo]

Point one: The guy was pretty clearly and obviously an asshole. Reading his story that came through loud and clear. I'm not sure whether he was your A-No.1 over-the-top extreme lord-high-poo-bah-of-the-assholes type asshole, or he was one of your more average garden-variety assholes, but he obviously was an asshole of some sort.

Point two: Even if he were the crowned and annointed King of the Assholes, she responded like a crazy bitch (and at least a grand-dutchess of the crazy bitches). OK, so you find that your boyfriend is sleeping with his secretary. You find this out two months after he asks you to stop living with him. (The clue-phone is ringing. Hello!!) You call him on it and he denys it. You speak to secretary and she confirms it, proving him to be not only a cheat, but a liar as well. (And if you hadn't had at least an inkling of this in the six years that you've been going out, your clue-phone ringer is definately set to mute.) Well, what do you do?

If I were her, I could think of a range of options. However, though systematically destroying all of his possessions would fall quite a bit outside that range. What she did was pure, wanton destructiveness. Although it showed just a bit more creativity than pouring gasoline to his house and setting it on fire, it is just about the same thing.

Now, finding out that your long-time boyfriend is cheating on you and lying about it is hard emotionally. But responding in this way indicates that she was a true psycho. Fortunately for him, she was stable enough (on the relative scale of these things) that she merely destroyed his property, and commit violence upon his person. (A reference to the gun debates might be appropriate here, but I will refrain.)

Think about it if it were the other way around. Imagine that a boyfirend caught his girlfiend cheating and then went to her house and cut up all of her clothes, painted every surface, and destroyed each appliance. He'd be in jail with sexual abuse charges and restraining orders on him before the paint dried. And no one would give him any sympathy.

Yes, this was absolutely felony burglary and destruction of property.

(On the other hand, as Manny suggests, if she were cute enough, maybe it would be worth it. :) )

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

Personally, I think they are both a pair of losers.

techchick: If she was really a psychobitch, he would have waken one fine night to find himself tied to a bed and her holding a dull knife in her hand. Her reaction may have been a little extreme, but we don't know what she put into the relationship, nor do we know how badly the weasel betrayed her. His own words convict him of being a shallow, stupid, lying weasel.

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

Personally, I think they are both a pair of losers.

techchick: If she was really a psychobitch, he would have awakened one fine night to find himself tied to a bed and her holding a dull knife in her hand. Her reaction may have been a little extreme, but we don't know what she put into the relationship, nor do we know how badly the weasel betrayed her. His own words convict him of being a shallow, stupid, lying weasel.

[Arnold Winkelried]

Originally posted by Billdo:
Imagine that a boyfirend caught his girlfiend cheating and then went to her house and cut up all of her clothes, painted every surface, and destroyed each appliance. He'd be in jail with sexual abuse charges and restraining orders on him before the paint dried. And no one would give him any sympathy.sexual abuse charges? I guess it depends on which surfaces he painted. I you by any chance thinking of Goldfinger?

[mouthbreather]

Shayna, I guess this issue hits a little too close to home for you to be rational about it.

please tell me what other actions of his would warrant this behavior (also read my above posts for exceptions). What if he just did it once and apologized--Then she can just sledgehammer his stereo? What if he just kissed her--She can break 10 of his CDs?

To feel that she is justified is absurd.

Gee, let's see, violating someone's body and potentially putting their life at risk compared to painting someone's dockers.

and when you say “dockers”, you mean "every worldly possession", right? And when you say "paint", you mean "destroy beyond repair", right? Just making sure you looked at the same thing I did.

[techchick68]

Peyote,

I realize what you and others are saying....but I still think that there is no room to allow this behavior as being appropriate.

I agree, what he did was wrong, but I also believe that there is never a time where this behavior should be considered "okay".

And as, Billdo stated, if the tables were turned and a man did this, he would be thrown in jail so quickly his head would spin right off his neck.

The guy has a restraining order against her, from what I remember from the program, but again, if a man had done this...

To me, it doesn't matter, this is insane behavior and I would never consider it a course of action against a broken heart or even more complicated issues. She should pay, and pay for all of the things she destroyed. She entered and destroyed property, how is this any different than anyone else doing this to him, regardless of the circumstances.

You play, yes, you pay, but her actions are WAY out there my friends, I don't care how terrible he treated her.

BTW, posting up a web site about her actions is not a big deal to me, hopefully with his media appearances and such he can gain enough cash to rebuild his apartment and buy clothes. Who knows, she may have done him a favor?

[billehunt]

Well, he could be lying, but from the evidence at hand: Breaking a heart may make you a jerk, but willful destruction of property (and at such a scale!) makes you a criminal.

Assuming he's telling the truth, there's no justification for her reaction.

[Dirty Devil]

I agree that they're both a couple of losers. However, the woman went just a bit too far. Hell, I'd have her arrested and charged with whatever I could get the DA to go for. Cheating is one thing, but destroying personal property, some of it possibly un-replaceable (family photos, heirlooms, etc) is a whole 'nuther ballgame. He may have deserved something for what he did, but this was NOT it.

Interestingly, this sounds like a great big scam if you ask me. Does anyone know for a fact if it's true? It sounds like some guy is trying to sell his stupid little t-shirts and needs some kind of advertisment to get the word out. What better way than to sell a sordid story like this to the Howard Stern show. Probably just my wishful thinking that people don't really act like this in real life.

[techchick68]

For those inquiring minds, I asked Euty to move this from MPSIMS to here because it was no longer a fun topic and seemed to become more of a debate.

So, NOW, people can go for it and debate this issue at hand.

Thanks Euty :)

[Arnold Winkelried]

Actually, Dirty Devil, that was my first thought also. When I read something like this on the internet, my immediate reaction is "this story is bogus."

[techchick68]

Dirty Devil,

Now I am not saying that a show is hard-core proof, but he was on The View, with the respected journalist, Barbara Walters.

I assume that if a show with such a respected journalist has this guy on, they have dome sufficient background research to verify his story.

[WallyM7]

tech, you know I love ya, but Barbara Walters? A respected journalist?



------------------
Dubbed The Skunk of Holes by some putz who's name I have fortunately forgotten.

[Joe_Cool]

Ok, I did hear both sides when he was on Howard Stern. They called her at work and asked her about it.

She was pissed because he'd been cheating on her for a long time, and had no remorse. His reaction to questions about why he cheated on her was something to the effect of "well, so what?" Additionally, IIRC, she's imported from some latin-american country where it's commonplace and accepted for women to have significantly "peppier" tempers.

She went way overboard, but I have trouble feeling sorry for the guy. Even though she's wrong, I have to snicker and try to hide my appreciation for her revenge.

------------------
If you say it, mean it. If you mean it, do it.
If you do it, live it. If you live it, say it.
-----
Joe Cool

[Joe_Cool]

As to how people act in real life, I work in a computer repair shop. We had a customer come in with a computer that was bashed to hell (we assumed it was some weird windows error).

so as it turns out, his girlfriend had taken a hammer to it because she was jealous that he didn't spend enough time with her.

So this kind of thing really happens.

------------------
If you say it, mean it. If you mean it, do it.
If you do it, live it. If you live it, say it.
-----
Joe Cool

[aseymayo]

Well, at least she won't be asking for half his stuff.

She's thorough, you've got to give her that. From the little "trick" he pulled, taking the sec'y's car to strand his girlfriend and his mistress together, it sounds like he was into irrational acts, too.

[Diane]

YOU GO GIRL!!!!

My bestfriend's ex-boyfriend pulled one too many shitties on her. MAJOR shitties that I won't go into here. When she finally had enough of his B.S., she gathered all of his belongings, put them into big black garbage bags (he didn't have a lot, but enough to fill 6 bags), dumped them in the middle of the road, got into her full size Blazer and proceeded to burn rubber up and down the street 20 or so times, right over the bags.

The bastard deserved it and is damn lucky HE didn't wind up with tread marks on his ass.


------------------
Pardon me while I burst into flames.

[Rainbowcsr]

I had a psycho girlfriend sit out on the road WITH her unsuspecting boyfriend and heave grapefruit at my car because I demanded she drop the guy. When she wouldn't, I gave her a nicely wrapped gift in front of her friends -- it was a babies pacifier on a ribbon. She managed to whack my car 4 or 5 times and gave up when she missed and hit a neighbors window. Well, she couldn't have her cake and eat it also.

I think in the situation of the guy in the web site, I'd either press charges or take her to civil court. I'd want to be reimbursed. I mean, I've gone wild when catching a lover cheating on me, but never wrecked their homes -- just tried to wreck their boyfriends. The only problem with taking her to civil court is that many states do not garnish wages, which means she can thumb her nose at the judgment and he'll have to take her to court again and then get lawyers to force her to pay.

------------------
What? Me worry?'

[Typo Negative]

Which pain is worse? Having all your stuff destroyed or having your heart broken in such a way. As someone who has survived both, I can say that she got the worst of the pain (even without the legal repercussions(sp)). And to add insult to injury, he manages to get his 15 minutes of minor celebrity out of it.

I don't condone her actions, but they were better than his actions.
anyway, thats my opinion.

[Danielinthewolvesden]

After reading this & hearing the new dixie chicks/"earl" song, I would like to post this guide;

1. Husband divorces you for trophy wife;
appropriate response: Hire a good attorney, get every penny you're entitled to.
INappropriate response: get revenge, ruin his life his business, his relationship.

2. He (repeatedly) cheats on you;
A/R: Dump the loser, let your freinds know also so they don't find out the hard way. If married, proceed to 1.
I/R: Destroy his property, shoot him, castrate him.

3. He beats you;
A/R: press charges, get him in a jail cell w/ "Bubba" so HE can know the joys of being abused by HIS sexual partner, if married, proceed to 1.
I/R: set his bed on fire, kill him, etc.

[APB9999]

I can't believe anyone would defend, let alone applaud this lunatic! The guy was an asshole, pretty clearly, but condemning criminal vandalism DOES NOT require that we somehow applaud the victim, does it?
If your S.O. cheats on you, what you do is...DUMP THE GUY (or girl). You don't attack them! You don't burn their house down. You don't smash all their posessions with a hammer. You don't pour chemicals all over their appliances.

This woman is a fruitcake, and if she'll go this far because a relationship ended badly, she may well be a threat to herself or others. Going through his bureau and cutting up all his clothes, then refolding them and putting them back? What would a psychiatrist make of that? Well, Hannibal Lechter might think it was an appropriate "getting in touch with your anger", but anyone else might have doubts! Does this sound like someone you're confident will NOT turn violent?
Anyone who sees this as some kind of blow for sisterhood, or a "lesson for the next guy" is a couple of wheels short of a bicycle themself.

No, wait! I take that back. If you think this "lady" was right on the money, then by all means you should definitely discuss it with your husband/boyfriends. Yes. You definitely shouldn't hide views like that. Let them know that you consider this a fair, just, and equitable response on her part. Show them the inner you, here. The only result can be to tie them more tightly to you with hoops of loving affection and deeper understanding. That'll work just swell.
And such honest and open sharing of feelings, like Sybil with her paint cans, can only be to the good. It'll prevent surprises later.

[Diane]

Damn right.

Now I personally would not do something like this woman, although I might consider it had I been in my girlfriend's situation. As I said, her ex pulled some major B.S., far above cheating.

However, I believe women who are capable of these types of actions should be upfront and honest with their husbands/lovers. Let them know that "if you cheat on me, know that there is a possibility I may paint everything you own." "If you molest my children, know that you may lose your pee pee." "If you beat me, know that you may wake up covered in gasoline."

You betcha, I believe in fair warnings.


------------------
Pardon me while I burst into flames.

[tracer]

What if, instead of ruining his stuff, the jilted girlfriend had taken her vengeance out on the secretary whom her boyfriend had cheated with?

A less severe version of that may have in fact been done by an ex-girlfriend of mine, although I can't actually prove anything.

[Diane]

Tracer - Because it was the boyfriend who cheated, not the secretary.

------------------
Pardon me while I burst into flames.

[Mojo]

The topic should be changed to "Warning for everyone: Beware of either of these loonies!" He cheats on her, she trashes his stuff, he starts CrazyBitch.com....sounds like they truly deserve each other.

And for those of you who said "-All I have to say to this woman is THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for doing what I wish I would have had the balls to do a time or two to cheating boyfriends myself!" or "YOU GO GIRL!!!!" you might want to reread your comments- it'll make it easier for you to understand why your S.O. might start looking elsewhere.

[Diane]

it'll make it easier for you to understand why your S.O. might start looking elsewhere.

You may want to re-read my statement that went something like this:

Now I personally would not do something like this woman

Past, present, or future S.O.s would know this about me. They would also be quite aware of the very real potential of me chopping their dinky off if I ever find him molesting one of my children.

This cheating jerk must have known his girlfriend well enough to know what she is capable of doing, yet he puts her and his secretary in an explosive situation. He was playing with fire and got burned. Boo-Hoo, poor baby.


------------------
Pardon me while I burst into flames.

[Riboflavin]

However, I believe women who are capable of these types of actions should be upfront and honest with their husbands/lovers. Let them know that "if you cheat on me, know that there is a possibility I may paint everything you own." "If you molest my children, know that you may lose your pee pee." "If you beat me, know that you may wake up covered in gasoline." You betcha, I believe in fair warnings.

So, for all of these strong, vibrant women who think that all kinds of extreme retaliation are appropriate for women to inflict on men, what about when the tables are turned? Is it OK for a man who's GF cheats on him to paint/tear all of her possessions? Is it OK for a man who's GF/wife molests his kids to cut off her clitoris? Is it OK for a man who's wife beats him to cover her in gasoline?

Somehow, I think that all of these 'you go girl' types are either going to ignore the question or admit that they believe women have the right to inflict violence on men at a whim.

------------------
Kevin Allegood,

"At least one could get something through Trotsky's skull."
- Joseph Michael Bay

[tracer]

Diane wrote:

Tracer - Because it was the boyfriend who cheated, not the secretary.

Ah, but it was the secretary whom the boyfriend cheated with.

Aren't there situations in which the jilted woman feels the urge to lash out at the one who "stole" her boyfriend, rather than at the boyfriend who cheated on her?

[aenea]

Diane,

Yes, there are definately time when you want to strike out at the "other woman" as well as the cheater. Especially if you know that other woman well, but even if you don't.

Hell yes, she should have some responsibility in the mess.

I know of very few truly innocent women, who would be gullible enough to think that the ring on his finger is just for show, or that frilly shit all over the bedroom belongs to his last roomate. Huh!

You can be sure that the only time it happened to me, they both paid in full.

------------------
Carpe Jugulum

[Myron Van Horowitzski]

Maybe a prerequisite for being a strong vibrant woman is developing the ability to steer clear of men who are jerks in the first place.

[tracer]

... or to be a steel tuning fork. <rimshot>

[Shayna]

I am going to attempt to answer the many personal accusations flung at me with as much calm as I can possibly muster.

First of all, let me point out that nowhere in either of my above replies did I say this woman was right to do what she did, nor did I say that she had *A* right to do it. What she did was without a doubt illegal. However, I do not for one moment believe that she should be classified as the bigger, or more cruel, offender in this situation. AFAIC, what he did to her far outweighs what she did to him. And yes, I am offended by those who seem to value possessions and material things over human life.

It is beyond my comprehension that people don't understand the gravity of what he did to her. He is not just some "bad boy" who deserves a slap on the wrist because "all he did was screw around on her and break her heart." What he did was knowingly, willfully and maliciously violate her BODY by exposing her to dozens of sexually transmitted diseases, many of which can be potentially life-threatening. His willful disregard for her HEALTH is, to me, exceedingly more heinous than her destruction of his property.

Things can always be replaced. People can not.
mouthbreather:

Shayna, I guess this issue hits a little too close to home for you to be rational about it. I am not irrational, thankyouverymuch. I simply have very strong feelings about the vileness of HIS crime against her, even when comparing it to her crime against him. Joe_cool says, "Even though she's wrong, I have to snicker and try to hide my appreciation for her revenge." That's precisely how I feel, except that I didn't hide my appreciation for her revenge - I voiced it, loud and clear. That hardly makes me irrational, just opinionated.
please tell me what other actions of his would warrant this behavior... What if he just did it once and apologized--Then she can just sledgehammer his stereo?Again, I never said she "can," or even should have, done any of that. Were she my friend and told me she was considering that, I'd have done whatever it took to talk her out of it. Again, I reiterate, it's *not* right. She will suffer a lot of consequences because of it. But do I feel a bit of glee that some woman out there gave a cheating jerk a taste of the kind of destruction he wreaked on her? You betcha. Sorry if that offends, but yeah, I think he reaped what he sowed, even if I would (as I stated) never have had the balls to do anything like that myself (nor would I ever in the future).
Riboflavin:

what about when the tables are turned? ...

Somehow, I think that all of these 'you go girl' types are either going to ignore the question or admit that they believe women have the right to inflict violence on men at a whim.This reply goes to Billdo as well.

I have no intention of ducking that question. For the record, if the situation were reversed and some guy trashed the house of his whoring ex-girlfriend because he found out she'd exposed him to diseases he'll have to be tested for for the next 2 years, I'd be saying the same thing. Man or woman, a cheater is the scum of the earth IMO. No better than an attempted murderer, as they are potential murderers, no different than if they'd have been putting feces in their partner's food and slowly poisoning them to death or sticking a gun to their head and playing russian roulette with their life.
APB9999:

Anyone who sees this as some kind of blow for sisterhood, or a "lesson for the next guy" is a couple of wheels short of a bicycle themself.I disagree, but thanks for the personal insult.
Mojo:

And for those of you who said "-All I have to say to this woman is THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for doing what I wish I would have had the balls to do a time or two to cheating boyfriends myself!" or "YOU GO GIRL!!!!" you might want to reread your comments- it'll make it easier for you to understand why your S.O. might start looking elsewhere.This is the tough one to answer without getting this thread thrown in the pit, but I'll try. Mojo, you have a lot of nerve even attempting to place any blame on *ME* because I've had the misfortune of having been cheated on by lying, scumbag jerks who think only of themselves and not of the people they profess to love. (And for the record, it's happened to me twice in the last 10 years. Hardly what I would call a record for driving men to stray.)

You know absolutely nothing about how loving, kind, understanding and trusting I am in my relationships. Yet you would dare to point a finger in my direction as though if my man cheated it must have been my fault. Hardly.

I take zero responsibility for the drug and alcohol problems my last boyfriend had long before he met me, and tried to conceal in order to woo me into his bed. I take zero responsibility for the fact that he courted me relentlessly, professed his undying love and convinced me that I was the only woman for him, all the while boffing the girl he told me was "just a good friend," which I bought hook, line and sinker.

Am I bitter now, after the fact? You're damn straight I am. He carelessly and callously risked my life. Unless you've been on the receiving end, you will never know the nightmare that your life can become when you wait for test results that will tell you whether or not you are going to die because you were stupid enough to fall for a very convincing liar. If my only "crime" was falling for a guy that wove a very elaborate web of deception, do you think my punishment should be death? Think about that for a minute, and then tell me that you don't think I have a right to be angry.

I did not bring this on myself, and I really resent the implication.
KarmaComa:

I think that the kind of women who do this (or even condone it) don't know how to deal with themselves, let alone anyone else.You're just plain wrong.

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." - Anne Frank

[GraceTX]

The guy is obviously a loser. But on top of that he's a pansy ass who won't even 'fess up when he's been busted. Rather than meet with them when they ask, he lies and tries to weasel his way out of having to admit the truth and be confronted by the women. (Of course now that he's getting a little media attention and publicity, he's quick to admit his affair.)

Personally, I totally understand why she'd be pretty upset. Especially after stewing for four days about the jerk cheating on her. I'm not condoning her behavior but he didn't exactly help matters any.

Also, I'm more than a little amazed that the people on this board were quick to label her as the psycho. This guy cheated on her!!! Forget the stereo, the tv, and his property. Shayna was right about how he endangered her physical well-being. You can replace your personal possessions. You cannot replace human life. What he did was put her entire future at risk when he screwed around on her. That she damaged his personal property is wrong. I don't deny that what she did was wrong. What I am amazed at is that no one here seems to value human life as much as they do personal possessions. He may have property damage but are we really saying that human life isn't worth nearly that much. Do we really feel that trashing someone's stuff is worse than putting someone's life at risk?

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Work is fine for killin' time, but it's a shaky way to make a living.

[KarmaComa]

I think that the kind of women who do this (or even condone it) don't know how to deal with themselves, let alone anyone else.

Regardless, I don't think this guy deserves sympathy, he deserves restitution.

The girl doesn't deserve sympathy either. She deserves hours and hours of self affirmation for the cruel and heartless way she has been treated. I mean, someone's got to make her feel like a human being! It's not like it's her responsibility to be well adjusted!

Was that sarcastic enough?

[Diane]

Yesterday I wrote a reply to the personal attacks and innuendoes (Hannibal Lector? Poleeeeze. Nice display of drama, but you didn’t win the Academy Award). I proofread my words and then hit the delete button, deciding it was PIT material and not fit for GD.

Thanks Shayna, for putting my exact thoughts into more appropriate words.


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Pardon me while I burst into flames.

[Missy2U]

Shayna - until now, I haven't said word one about this whole subject, only because the sentiments Diane stated above applied to me too. There was no way I could possibly respond without this whole thing ending up pit-bound. My thanks as well, for stating so succinctly my own thoughts.

As for the men who responded as they did (again, see previous posts), don't waste any time, bandwidth, compassion, feelings, or anything on them. If they don't value a woman's life that much, why bother? They aren't fit to breath the same air we do.

[Mojo]

I stand by my statement- what you (Diane and Shayna) had written sounded like what a Jerry Springer audience member would hoot when watching "I Spit on Your Grave".

And the "No better than an attempted murderer" comments are empty rhetoric that I don't think need to be addressed.

[phouka]

Karma, in a monogamous relationship, all things being equal, the risk of contracting an STD is negated. Yes, the woman involved bears equal responsibility for ensuring safe sex, and in this instance, she did so by remaining monogamous. He broke his promise to her and had an affair, thereby opening it up to the chance of disease once more.

Or do you think that everybody should always use condoms no matter what the circumstances?

[tracer]

Shayna wrote:

Uhm, I'm sorry, but I think it's WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WORSE to screw around with someone's LIFE! Who knows how many STDs he could have brought home, let alone the risk of AIDS. As far as I'm concerned, there is NO worse violation than the violation of someone's physical person. His clothes be damned - THOSE can be replaced. Someone's life CAN NOT!

His webpage doesn't say whether he was using condoms with his secretary or not. It also doesn't say whether he was using condoms with his girlfriend or not.

Yes, I know condoms aren't 100% effective in preventing the spread of HIV, but they do reduce the risk significantly enough that, if he was using condoms correctly and consistently, his regular partner would have about as much chance of contracting a fatal STD as she would of contracting a different fatal disease he picked up from touching a dirty doorknob.

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The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.

[Shayna]

Diane:

Thanks Shayna, for putting my exact thoughts into more appropriate words.You're welcome, Diane. Given the intensity of my feelings on this issue, it was not an easy task. :)

Missy2U:

They aren't fit to breath the same air we do.Thank you for the support, Missy. And I wholeheartedly agree with that statement.

phouka:

My ex-boyfriend put my life in danger because he wanted to fuck another woman without a condom. I think that counts as assault. Had prosecution been an option for me last year, I probably would have taken it, but it wasn't.I'm sorry for what you've suffered, phouka. My ex also passed along an STD to me, which, had I not found out from his MOTHER that he'd been cheating on me, might have escalated to cervical cancer (it was already in the precancerous stage when it was first discovered). Thank goodness when she found out what a lowlife scum her son was being, she had the compassion and decency to let me know so that I could have myself checked immediately.

Good luck, and I hope everything turns out ok for you.

KarmaComa:

Wouldn't you say that since she was consenting to unprotected sex (BTW is this an assumption you have made?) that she, too, was risking the contraction of a disease?NO! They had a SEVEN YEAR COMMITTED RELATIONSHIP. I think it stands to reason that ANYONE would be able to rightly assume that it's SAFE to have sex without a condom with a person in that kind of long-term relationship (assuming they were using some other form of birth control).

WHEN WOMEN HAVE UNPROTECTED SEX THEY SUBJECT THEMSELVES TO AN UNNECCESSARY RISK OF STDs. A WOMAN HOLDS JUST AS MUCH RESPONSIBILITY AS A MAN FOR ENSURING THAT SEX IS PROTECTED.I KNEW some @$$hole was going to say that. That does NOT apply in this situation, nor did it in mine. Read phouka's reply for exactly why you are completely off base here. And SCREAMING at me doesn't make your argument any more valid.

Mojo:

But I thought that Shayna's and Diane's comments were pure ugliness.And I think yours are pure hatefulness and RUDENESS. Never in any of my replies above did I once bring this down to a personal insult level. YOU are the one that did that, and frankly, it has NO PLACE on this forum.

Note to self: Ignore any and all future posts by mojo.

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." - Anne Frank

[yosemite]

I am with Shayna here. No, maybe I'm not quite on edge as much as she is - I haven't been through what she has been through.

But, condoms or not, there is always that small risk of catching something. Hey, even if he used a condom, maybe it slipped, or broke. IF he even used one. These doubts and worries can really eat someone up when they discover they've been exposed to more than they bargained for. Even a small, small risk can be enough to drive a person crazy with worry.

I am also a little amazed that people act as if they guy should get away with a "slap on the wrist". So he was a "bad boy". But what she did was soooo much worse. Well, what she did was psycho, and horrible. Well, sure, what she did was really over the top. But I doubt what she did kept him up worrying at night, wondering, fussing, stressing out over "what if I caught something?" and planning to get tests done at the clinic. And yet what he did to her more than likely had that effect on her.

So, no sympathy to him, the lying weasel. And no, what she did was over the top, innapropriate. But he was no helpless victim, either.

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Polydactyl Cats Unlimited
"A Cat Cannot Have Too Many Toes"

[Shayna]

tracer:

Yes, I know condoms aren't 100% effective in preventing the spread of HIV, but they do reduce the risk significantly enough that, if he was using condoms correctly and consistently, his regular partner would have about as much chance of contracting a fatal STD as she would of contracting a different fatal disease he picked up from touching a dirty doorknob.Oh My Gawd! Please educate yourself. Just what kind of fatal disease can I pick up from a doorknob, pray tell? And just how the he!! does that have anything to do with maliciously deceiving the person you are supposed to be committed to?

And if you are willing to concede (as you did) that condoms are not 100% effective, just how much risk are YOU willing to put YOUR partner in by screwing around behind their back even WITH one? Sheesh!

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." - Anne Frank

[Mojo]

My comments were "hateful"? Where did I talk about cutting off anyone's "pee-pee", running over someone with a truck, stating that anyone on this board isn't fit to breathe the same air, or calling anybody an "@$$hole"? When I made the "S.O. leaving" comment, it was a general statement- I did not know anything about your past relationship(s).

But you're not reading this, right?

[Diane]

You’re right Mojo, I am quite the hateful little wench.

You continue to quote my words regarding my friends situation as well as my chopping off pee pee comment. Had it been me, there would have been tire skidmarks on more than just his belongings and yes, given the chance, he would have lost a certain body part in the most tortuous and slow way possible. But then again, I would tend to go a wee bit psycho if my 7 year old son started pooping blood and trying to slit his wrist with a hanger only to find out from the counselor at the hospital that the man I was with just happened to get his jollies from butt raping little boys.

Any man I am with had damn well be aware of the very real possibility of harm if they even consider harming my kids.

So yeah, I guess I am pretty hateful.


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Pardon me while I burst into flames.

[Freedomx]

[This is a friend of mine using my account just for this post]

For every single person saying that he is an asshole (guys especially!) you guys are way off of your mark...

listen.....

I know he was banging 2 chicks but hey haven't most of us guys at one time or another done that?

The difference is the smart ones don't get caught...and the others..well ..what's your favorite paint color?

And for women, honestly, how many times have you dated more than 1 guy at a time, or maybe had that "innocent" one nite stand?

Getting to the point....that doesn't mean that anyone, for any reason, should be able to trash your personal belongings....

Think about it...that favorite pair of jeans you wore for years... the sweater your grandmother made for you before she passed away....personal belongings that meant alot...

DOES CASH TAKE CARE OF THOSE ISSUES... 1 thousand...50 thousand...100 grand...what can take the place of momentos that mean so much us...

Listen, you condone these actions and maybe one day you get in the same spot...think about all of your personal belongings.... if you feel she was ok to trash all of it, then don't be upset when it happens to you

Ninja

[C3]

I haven't said anything until now, but I felt like someone should make it clear that not all women think like Shayna, Diane, etc.

I agree with all of you that what this man did was disgusting, criminal, "psychotic", and probably one of the worst things one person could do to another. This still does not excuse the woman's behavior. This is vigilantism and there's a reason this is illegal. If someone shot you in the leg, would it be okay to go over to her house a week later and destroy everything she owned? No. Take this out of the male/female relationship context and it's clear that what she did was NOT okay. There are other, LEGAL ways to address this sort of situation.

Phouka, I'm sorry for what happened to you. I can't imagine the hurt you must have felt (not to mention the physical pain), but did you ever feel that your best option (or even the right option) would have been to commit an illegal act on your ex-SO?

Shayna, are you talking about cervical dysplasia? If you are, I wouldn't be too quick to blaim your ex. This is something that you may have been carrying for a long time and it wouldn't have shown up in your regular pap until it was "active". Also, severe dysplasia has a 50% chance, if untreated, of turning into cancer. It's a serious condition, but not exactly a death sentence. It just seems like you may have been leaving some facts about it out to bolster your argument (if indeed, that is the condition you had).

[PeeQueue]

OK, please no one take this the wrong way, but I have a serious question:

Is it your (Shayna, Diana and others that agree with you) point of view that if person A is dating person B, and person A secretly has sex with person C, then person A has committed an offense that is on par with attempted murder?

If not attempted murder, then what would you compare it to?

Do you contend that anyone having sex with anyone else these days needs to let their partner know of all their other partners prior to having sex?

I'm not saying this is wrong, I just want to understand your point of view.

PeeQueue

[PeeQueue]

Oops, sorry for the misspelling - I meant Diane, not Diana.

PeeQueue

[tracer]

Shayna wrote:

And if you are willing to concede (as you did) that condoms are not 100% effective, just how much risk are YOU willing to put YOUR partner in by screwing around behind their back even WITH one? Sheesh!

Since this is the Straight Dope, shouldn't we see some figures on {A} what the chances are that a randomly-selected sex partner is carrying a life-threatening STD (e.g. is HIV-positive); {B} what the actual chances of picking up this STD are after, say, one year of regular sexual contact, with consistent condom use; and {C} what the chances would be of spreading it to another regular sex partner are, without condom use.

To arrive at the chance of catching a life-threatening STD from a cheating partner, we'd need to multiply these 3 factors together. If the resulting odds are on par with getting struck by lightning or winning the lottery, then in all honesty, I ain't gonna worry about it. If the odds are significant, however, then yes, this is a legitimate beef. But let's see some real numbers here.

[phouka]

Mojo, how about this:

Over a year ago, my then-boyfriend began cheating on me - sleeping with the girlfriend of his best friend, and for all I know, the best friend.

I didn't find out until I had to go to the emergency room with abdominal pains. Because he had unprotected sex with another woman, he gave me a trichomoniasis infection that escalated into a bout of Pelvic Inflammatory Disease.

PID is pretty insidious. It can go undiagnosed for a while (in my case it went undiagnosed for nearly two and a half months). During that time, the infection created scar tissue in my abdominal cavity - scar tissue that may well render me sterile as well as cause complications by constricting my large intestine. Had it gone on long enough, it's completely possible that the infection and scar tissue would have caused a bowel blockage that could, ultimately, have killed me.

That's not even taking into the account that because he was so careless, he exposed me to AIDS, herpes, hepetitis, gonnorhea, syphillis, chlamydia, HPV, crabs, or other STDs. I've had to run multiple tests just to make sure that I haven't been infected by anything else.

I'm not telling this as a sob story. I don't excuse the actions of that woman. What she did was criminally wrong.

However, I don't believe the man (or in my case, my ex-boyfriend) was any less criminally liable.

The tests and treatments for the trich infection and PID eventually ran up a medical bill near $1500 - at a time when I had no medical insurance. If I had required surgery, the costs could have spiralled into the tens of thousands of dollars.

My ex-boyfriend put my life in danger because he wanted to fuck another woman without a condom. I think that counts as assault. Had prosecution been an option for me last year, I probably would have taken it, but it wasn't.

So why should the man in this equation be viewed as any less psychotic than the woman who destroyed his belongings?

[KarmaComa]

Originally posted by Shayna:
What he did was knowingly, willfully and maliciously violate her BODY by exposing her to dozens of sexually transmitted diseases, many of which can be potentially life-threatening. His willful disregard for her HEALTH is, to me, exceedingly more heinous than her destruction of his property.
Wouldn't you say that since she was consenting to unprotected sex (BTW is this an assumption you have made?) that she, too, was risking the contraction of a disease?

No better than an attempted murderer, as they are potential murderers, no different than if they'd have been putting feces in their partner's food and slowly poisoning them to death or sticking a gun to their head and playing russian roulette with their life.

I take zero responsibility for the drug and alcohol problems my last boyfriend had long before he met me, and tried to conceal in order to woo me into his bed. I take zero responsibility for the fact that he courted me relentlessly, professed his undying love and convinced me that I was the only woman for him, all the while boffing the girl he told me was "just a good friend," which I bought hook, line and sinker.

Am I bitter now, after the fact? You're damn straight I am. He carelessly and callously risked my life. Unless you've been on the receiving end, you will never know the nightmare that your life can become when you wait for test results that will tell you whether or not you are going to die because you were stupid enough to fall for a very convincing liar. If my only "crime" was falling for a guy that wove a very elaborate web of deception, do you think my punishment should be death? Think about that for a minute, and then tell me that you don't think I have a right to be angry.

I did not bring this on myself, and I really resent the implication.

WHEN WOMEN HAVE UNPROTECTED SEX THEY SUBJECT THEMSELVES TO AN UNNECCESSARY RISK OF STDs. A WOMAN HOLDS JUST AS MUCH RESPONSIBILITY AS A MAN FOR ENSURING THAT SEX IS PROTECTED.


KarmaComa:

I think that the kind of women who do this (or even condone it) don't know how to deal with themselves, let alone anyone else.You're just plain wrong.



Well that's a very convincing argument. I can't counter that.

[Diane]

Careful what you say Phouka, you don't want to sound like you came off the Springer show.

:rolleyes:


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Pardon me while I burst into flames.

[Mojo]

Who said I thought he was any less psychotic? I said that they deserved each other and I based that on the poor judgement on both of their parts. I agree with the "Granted, destruction of property is not acceptable. But her over-the-top reaction is hardly unusual" sentiment of Aenea's. But I thought that Shayna's and Diane's comments were pure ugliness.

[PeeQueue]

Good point tracer. It seems to me that if you cheat, but use a condom, then the odds of you getting a disease AND passing it to someone else should be slight. Therefore the deed should hardly qualify as something to be physically/monetarily punished for. Of course, the more often you do it, the more chance there is that this will happen. But, as you said, it would be good to see some numbers.

PeeQueue

[yosemite]

Originally posted by PeeQueue:
It seems to me that if you cheat, but use a condom, then the odds of you getting a disease AND passing it to someone else should be slight. Therefore the deed should hardly qualify as something to be physically/monetarily punished for. Of course, the more often you do it, the more chance there is that this will happen. But, as you said, it would be good to see some numbers.
I'd like to see some numbers too, information is always good. But I think there is another point to all of this:

Granted, this woman's extreme and destructive overreaction was waaaay out of line. Granted, conceded, agreed upon. I agree with that. She was out of line, way out of line.

But this guy put her through something quite destructive also. So, let's say he used a condom, used it right. Condoms are not foolproof. And, why would she believe him, or trust him if/when he told her he used condoms? He's already proven himself to be a liar, he could be just glossing over the fact that he forgot to use a condom sometimes, and won't mention the time it broke...I think most women's faith in such a man's word would be nil. And, even if she believed him, that he was extremely careful - the fact remains that HE decided that she didn't need to know that he was putting her at risk, even if that risk was miniscule. HE decided - he didn't tell her, consult her, ask her about if she'd mind if he screwed another woman, as long as he was "careful". She had no informed choice. She was not in on the decision. This is the epitome of arrogance, of presumption, of crappy cruel behavior. The bastard.

No, what she did in retaliation in no way was warranted. For one thing, all it does it make him look like a put-upon innocent victim, when he is anything but. And, she will probably have to face charges, or have to be punished in some other way. She should have never done it, for herself, if nothing else. She will now have to deal with all the consequences of that rash act. So, yes, it was a totally unglued thing to do.



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Polydactyl Cats Unlimited
"A Cat Cannot Have Too Many Toes"

[Shayna]

Ninja, I don't even want to guess how old you are. Your comments frighten me. "Banging 2 chicks"? {{shiver}}.

For the record, yes, I've dated more than one guy at a time. But I have never been in a committed relationship and slept with other guys behind someone's back.

The smart ones don't get caught? Good grief, I just don't even know what to say to that.

"What can take the place of momentos that mean so much us?" Are you seriously trying to tell me that things are more valuable than a person's life? Don't bother to answer that. It's clear that that's exactly what you're saying. How sad.

"Then don't be upset when it happens to you." It won't ever happen to me because I would never dream of doing something so despicable to someone I cared about that might incite them to do that to me.

C3, again, I never said what she did was OK. OK? Got that now?

And as far as your even suggesting that I have misrepresented the source of my medical condition, you are insulting. You have no idea how long I was with that man, or how many times I'd been checked before and during our relationship. And to attempt to minimize it by saying I only have a 50% chance of getting cancer is just absurd. A 50% chance is not minimal! Not to mention that I still won't know for another year whether or not he infected me with HIV.

PeeQueue, if someone knows that they are exposing me to a risk of death by their behavior without my consent, then YES, I put them on par with an attempted murderer. It's malicious and reckless endangerment of my person at the very least.

tracer, I'm stunned. Utterly stunned. And sickened. I am not going to bother wasting my time getting you numbers. The numbers are completely irrelevant. I will say this one last time...

If someone leads me to believe that I am the only woman with whom they are having a sexual relationship, and they knowingly expose me to ANY risk WITHOUT MY CONSENT, then they are EVIL.

That you would say that "if the resulting odds are on par with getting struck by lightning or winning the lottery, then in all honesty, I ain't gonna worry about it," is so reprehensible to me that it makes me want to throw up.

If I stand out in an open field with a big metal rod in my hand in the middle of a lightning storm, then I deserve to be struck by lightning if it happens, even if the odds are small. But you cannot blindfold me, drag me out to that field, tie me to a metal pole without my permission and tell me I should think that's no big deal because the odds of lightning actually striking me are so small.

The point here is not about statistics, it's about consent.

I think I've made myself exceedingly clear about where I stand on the issues of infidelity and this woman's reaction to it when it happened to her (one last time - she was not right). And I flat out refuse to continue to sujbect myself to continued personal attacks for daring to hold myself to higher morals than your average alley cat. There's really nothing further I can add to this thread, so I am done here.

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." - Anne Frank

[Mojo]

For the record, yes, I've dated more than one guy at a time. But I have never been in a committed relationship and slept with other guys behind someone's back.

At what point do you consider yourself "committed"? Were the guys you were dating aware that you were seeing other people at the time?

[C3]

Even though Shayna will probably not respond to this, I want to make some of the things I said clearer.

First, yes, we all agree with you that what the guy did was wrong and I think some of us (me included) would agree with you that what he did was "evil". What I am NOT agreeing with you about is the implication that what this woman did was in ANY way understandable. I get that you don't think it was "right", but I think it was much worse that not right. What she did was illegal, disgusting, violent, and probably more outright agressive than what he did. Not only should she get zero sympathy, she should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Finally, about the dysplasia thing. If you talk to your doctor, you will find out that unless this guy was the only guy you've ever slept with, there's no way you can tell what you got was from him. HPV can remain dormant for years before it turns into anything that comes up positive on tests. If you slept with someone when you were 18, you could have gotten normal pap results every year, then had an abnormal one showing the dysplasia when you were 30. Since you still haven't said this is what you had, I'm going to assume it was because you didn't say otherwise. There is no possible way you can know that your most recent ex was the one who gave this to you.
Like I think I said before, although dysplasia is a serious condition that needs to be treated, I don't think that something that CAN be treated, quite easily, that only has a 50% chance turning into cancer with NO treatment falls into the realm of life threatening. If this is what you had, you know that all it took was a simple doctor's visit lasting about 10-15 minutes, some follow up visits, and that's about it. Hardly a death sentence.
HIV is another story. If you're going to make your argument, use that...it's less hyperbolic.

[PeeQueue]

yosemitebabe:
I think we're mostly in agreement here. We both agree that the woman was out of line and that what the man did was very wrong. What I am wondering is how wrong? Is Shayna right that anyone that cheats on someone else is doing the equivalent of committing attempted murder?

Remember, this is an every day occurrence. Men and women cheat on each other all the time, which leads me to believe that society doesn't see it as big a crime as Shayna is saying it is. But maybe it should be seen that way.

Maybe if a woman goes out with me for a few months, then sleeps with someone behind my back, she should go to jail for a few years, just as someone who tried to kill me would. Is this what you are getting at Shayna?

But, then, what is the point of marriage? People can end a marriage just as they can end a relationship; is it only a difference in that it requires more paperwork to get in and out of marriage?

Personally, I don't think I can agree with this line of thinking. The person that does the cheating is certainly not looking to kill his/her partner. I'm sure it would never occur to them that they had contracted a deadly disease and that they might pass it on. I'm also sure that there is many other things that people do that could lead others to die.

One thing that might change my mind is if the likelihood of this happening was greater than the likelihood of me getting hit by a car while walking a few blocks. That's why I thought having some stats might be a good idea.

PeeQueue

[tracer]

Shayna wrote:

tracer, I'm stunned. Utterly stunned. And sickened. I am not going to bother wasting my time getting you numbers. The numbers are completely irrelevant. I will say this one last time...

If someone leads me to believe that I am the only woman with whom they are having a sexual relationship, and they knowingly expose me to ANY risk WITHOUT MY CONSENT, then they are EVIL.

That you would say that "if the resulting odds are on par with getting struck by lightning or winning the lottery, then in all honesty, I ain't gonna worry about it," is so reprehensible to me that it makes me want to throw up.

If I stand out in an open field with a big metal rod in my hand in the middle of a lightning storm, then I deserve to be struck by lightning if it happens, even if the odds are small. But you cannot blindfold me, drag me out to that field, tie me to a metal pole without my permission and tell me I should think that's no big deal because the odds of lightning actually striking me are so small.

The point here is not about statistics, it's about consent.

Shayna, you are not going to get me to change my mind by yelling at me.

But you might be able to get me to change my mind by showing me whether your fears are statistically justified. With, say, useful figures from the U.S. Center for Disease Control.

From my current perspective, getting involved with someone puts you at much greater risk of picking up any communicable disease, sexually transmittable or not. If your partner comes home carrying a cold, or the flu, or antibiotic-resistant pneumonia, you have a pretty good chance of picking it up yourself. If your partner picked up Ebola from his/her vacation overseas, you'll probably die from it yourself. But you take that small risk anyway, in exchange for the benefit of having a partner. You also probably do some simple things that carry tiny non-disease-related risks with them, too, such as driving over to your partner's house, going out together to places you might not have been willing to go to alone, etc..

I say again, if (if!!) the risk of picking up a fatal STD from a cheating partner is insignificant next to these other partner-associated risks, I do not feel it is worth worrying about.

So, Shayna, I challenge you. Prove me wrong. Not with your rhetoric, not with your opinions, with real statistics. I dare you to prove me wrong.

[yosemite]

I think some of us are missing the point here...

It's about informed choice. CHOICE. If someone wants to sleep with someone, knowing that they are going to possibly not be monogamous, they are making an informed choice. They are taking their chances. If someone wants to sleep with someone, they obviously make the informed choice of risking picking up the flu, or some other random illness of that nature. It comes with the territory.

However, when a person is sleeping with someone, and they are given every reason to believe that the relationship is monogamous, then they make their choices based on that information. When they are being lied to, and not told all the facts (like they are not, after all, in a monogamous relationship) then their INFORMED choice is being taken away. I assume it is agreed upon by everyone here that we all deserve an INFORMED choice. This slimeball guy decided that this woman did not need to know that he was putting her at risk. Even if this risk was really, really really small (and we don't really know how small or large the risk was - we don't even know how "careful" he was) do you think she was not allowed that choice? Do you think that he gets to decide for her? Do you get to decide whether it was important or not for her to know? Of course not. I think it is amazingly arrogant for any of us to decide that the risk was "too small" and "not a big deal" - no one gets to decide that for someone else.

And, so when this woman finds out that she possibly was put at risk, how do you think she's going to feel? Do you think she's going to feel secure that this lying bastard really was "safe" all the time? Will she ever really know, or feel confident that he didn't possibly spread something to her? Do you think you are entitled to decide that she shouldn't be worried, or how worried or upset she should be?

This is all seperate from the issue of her trashing his stuff. A totally rash thing to do, didn't help anything, makes him look like a victim. Totally wrong.

But, why are so many of you here trying to minimize the stress and scariness of possibly being put at risk? This woman was put at risk wtihout her knowledge, even if it was a small risk. The amount of risk is not the point.

Even if the odds are incredibly small that a person will catch something, we are all entitled to be told all the details about what risks we are taking. And this guy took that choice away from her. Would any of us want that done to us?

Please, someone tell me I am wrong, but I am starting to get the feeling that this debate is being divided across gender lines. If I'm correct about that...scary.

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Polydactyl Cats Unlimited
"A Cat Cannot Have Too Many Toes"

[C3]

yosemitebabe, I agree with that completely. I'm confused, though...exactly what are we debating? I thought it was whether or not those feelings of fear, betrayal and anger justified the actions of the woman. I think you're absolutely right that she had every reason to have those feelings, though.

[techchick68]

What are really debating?

To me it sounds (and no offense to some of my fellow women) but it seems to be a debate whether or not she is justified in trashing his entire life, his home. Some of you think that destroying his apartment to the tune of $50,000 is justifiable, you are so sadly mistaken. From what I read and heard, this was breaking and entering! The web site doesn't tell the whole tale.

Back to the facts as they are given, they lived together for 6 years, she moved out and this happened after two months...this is a big clue that things aren't working here folks...if in fact this is the situation, then she should have had her bearings together to realize that this was not a relationship that was working.

Gimme a freakin break....I so want to turn this into a Pit topic because so many woman here are making this into "it's the man's fault". Sorry ladies, it goes both ways, you can't have it that way.....if a man were to do this, his ass would be in jail, no questions asked.

Granted we don't know her story, but face some facts here.

She has a felony conviction possibly against her. HELLO, does this make you think twice about doing something like this? If not, then you need to see a therapist.

He has a restraining order on her. HELLO, clearly, this woman is unstable.

There is little debate here.

He slept around, so what, we women do it to and any woman that says there aren't any woman out there that does this is fooling themselves.

Screw the STDs, I believe that for every man cheating on his wife or S.O. there is a woman doing the same damn thing. So ladies, don't you even sit there and think any different, we are in an equal opportunity world here. If you want to dispute that, then let's start another thread.

As for this guy and his site......damn straight, I am glad he did it. I don't know the other side of the story, but if this can be proven via the courts and her conviction, then I will raise my hands and say "ladies, what now?"

I can't stress enough that if a man did the same thing he would be in jail for some form of abuse.....

I am sorry that some women in here went through some horrible relationships.....but I concede there is never, ever an appropriate occasion for this behavior.

As I stated before, a friend of mine with through an extremely abusive relationship, and you bet your sweet ass she probably could have killed him and gotten away with it, but she didn't. She took the higher road.

I can't see any man that is worth this, I would have flipped him off at the most and said, "never fucking call me again."

And I have been through the cheating thing....so fuck this "whoa is me" attitude, get on with your lives.

There is never a time or a place where violence of any kind is appropriate. If you doubt me then lets talk one on one.

[Holly]

In rereading the guy's web site, I don't see anything to show exactly why the chick was so upset. (It would be helpful to hear her side.) Was she upset mainly because of the threat of disease, or mainly because he'd cheated on her?

When a person finds out that their SO of several years has been cheating, the initial reaction is usually one of anger at being rejected, jealousy, grief, etc. The initial reaction isn't "Oh my God, did he give me a disease?!?"

This girl trashed the apartment in that initial phase, when she'd just found out the guy was cheating and after she'd had just enough time to work up a really good head of steam. The violence and spontaneity of her actions leads me to believe she was reacting out of pure jealous rage, not anger over being exposed to potential disease.

Therefore, to say he deserved what she did because he was risking her life isn't a good excuse for her actions; that's not why she was punishing him. (AFAIK; obviously I'm guessing a little because we don't know her side.)

Pee Queue:Remember, this is an every day occurrence. Men and women cheat on each other all the time...
Exactly. Cheating is hardly rare. We all know people (or have been people) who thought the relationship was rock solid and later discovered that wasn't the case. The statistics I've seen estimate that 86% married men cheat at least once. (These are married men, supposedly a bit more committed than the boyfriend in the story, who was not married to the girl and in fact wasn't even living with her at the time.)

If that statistic is anywhere near true, women would be safer to assume that their SO WILL cheat. It's simply naive to assume otherwise, no matter how committed the guy leads you to believe he is.

[yosemite]

He slept around, so what, we women do it to and any woman that says therearen't any woman out there that does this is fooling themselves.
So you are saying because women do it too that it is no big deal? I think it's a big deal, no matter who does it. Maybe 25 years ago it wasn't quite the scary thing it is now, but the fact remains, it IS a scary thing now - to know that your partner has been screwing around on you, without your knowledge, possibly spreading something to you.
Screw the STDs, I believe that for every man cheating on his wife or S.O. there is a woman doing the same damn thing. So ladies, don't you even sit there and think any different, we are in an equal opportunity world here.
And your point is...? So, yeah, women do it too. Granted. Doesn't make it any less crappy. And what is this "screw the STDs" thing? I have lost one friend to AIDS and another is battling it, I see no reason to be flippant on the topic of STDS.

I think there might be another thread brewing here. I happen to think that screwing around on someone behind their back, possibly exposing them to something fatal, IS a big deal. No, this woman did not take the high road when she trashed his stuff. But he was a lying bastard. What he did was not trivial thing, not at ALL. It sounds like some of you are making excuses for him - like "Everybody does it". That doesn't fly with me. I suspect that is why STDs are still spreading freely among the population - people have too much of a cavalier attitude about this. Maybe that would be OK 25 years ago, but those happy, free days are WAAAY over. AIDS took care of that.

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Polydactyl Cats Unlimited
"A Cat Cannot Have Too Many Toes"

[tracer]

Did AIDS take care of that, or did the fear of AIDS take care of that?

[yosemite]

I think the fear is justified...like I said, I have a friend who is dead from AIDS, another who is battling it - AIDS is real, it's a risk. Once you've got it, your life will never be the same. Where have you been?

[Holly]

It sounds like some of you are making excuses for him - like "Everybody does it".
I hope I don't sound like I'm making excuses for this guy, because he's quite clearly a real prick.

On the other hand, when a person decides to get into a sexual relationship with another person, there is a risk associated with that. It is likely (actually, more than likely) that your honeybuns will cheat on you and expose you to disease. Saying, "He shouldn't cheat on me," or "he wouldn't do that to me" will not protect you. Who hasn't been cheated? I have, more than once. A person must weigh the risks. A person who lives in terror of STDs should not have sex. This doesn't excuse the jerk for cheating; he's still a jerk.

A more healthy response would be to say, "Thank god that relationship is over! I don't have to waste another minute on that creep!"

This girl set herself up to be a victim: she trusted a guy who was undeserving of that trust. When she was (inevitably?) betrayed, she freaked out and wound up making him look like the victim. Not too smart, or noble.

[tracer]

yosemitebabe wrote:

AIDS is real, it's a risk. Once you've got it, your life will never be the same. Where have you been?

I've been waiting for those infection and transmission stats, that's where I've been.

[Shirley Ujest]

billdo wrote:I'm not sure whether he was your A-No.1 over-the-top extreme lord-high-poo-bah-of-the-assholes type asshole, or he was one of your more
average garden-variety assholes, but he obviously was an asshole of some sort.


Wouldn't this be a great opening line in a book?

[C3]

Arghhh! This is the most frustrating debate ever! (sorry, tracer, no stats on that :) ) It is irrelevant what kind of danger the guy put her in. If he beat her up instead of cheating on her, I would still say that was she did was illegal, disgusting, violent, and completely, absolutely wrong. This DOES NOT in any way excuse the guy for what he did.

I'll ask a question that I asked before - If someone came and shot you in the leg, would you think a reasonable course of action would be to go a week later and burn their house down? People who do think this is a reasonable route are also the same people who are guilty of road rage and mafia hits. Period. There is NO excuse for his behavior and there is NO excuse for her behavior.