You need another kid like you need a HOLE in your HEAD!

[Rubystreak]

Here's the situation: I have this acquaintance who is part of the same social circle I'm in. She's 29, and I'd characterize her as a flaming hippy. This summer, she had 5 kids all under the age of 8 by 3 different men. She has no job, she's on welfare, and she loves to party. As a result, she foists her kids off on other people as often as possible, asking anyone and everyone, including near strangers who I wouldn't trust with my gerbils, to babysit for her brood. She's what my dad would call a shnorer: she will borrow money, ask for food, call you up to drive her and her kids somewhere, even if it's nowhere near where you live or need to go.

In fact, this summer she was OFFERING her kids to other people. I am fond of her children, and whenever I see them I wash their hands and faces (which always desperately need it), buy them snacks, and play with them. All of them are very needy for attention, and I strongly suspect some of them have emotional problems. I am particularly attached to her 5 year old, Shine Ray (if you doubted she was a hippy, all skepticism should now be allayed). At 5, he rarely talks, but loves to curl up in my lap and be held for hours. Anyway, my pal, his mom, asked me if I wanted to KEEP Shine. KEEP him, as it adopt him and take him off her hands. She also tried to give away her one year old to a friend of mine who got close to the baby. I would have loved to take Shine, but I am not ready to raise a kid, esp. not someone else's.

This summer I knew she was sleeping around with a bunch of guys, including the father of her last 2 kids. I sat her down and asked her what she was doing about birth control. She told me she "had it covered." Yeah, she was praying to the Earth Mother or something because... this bitch is pregnant AGAIN. :smack: Yes indeedy. This is where your tax dollars are going, to allow this deadbeat baby machine to repopulate the planet with her neglected, sad, dirty little babies.

The funny thing is, this chick is all about saving and loving Mother Earth from the inevitable destruction we as humans are wreaking. One night, I lost my temper and asked her what was the biggest problem facing Mother Earth today. She said, and I quote, "People are not telling the truth to each other or the Earth." I responded, "What the hell does that mean? No, sister, the main problem facing Mother Earth is that there are too many bloody humans, paving paradise and putting up parking lots." She told me that her "enlightened" methods of child rearing entitled and REQUIRED her to have as many children as she could. Never mind that she cannot support them, doesn't take care of them, and wants to give them away like unwanted puppies.

I am so furious at her for having another baby after her attempts to get rid of the ones she has this summer. What the fuck is wrong with her? I haven't been taking her phone calls because I know I can't say anything nice to her. I feel sorry for her kids but I have no sympathy for her. :mad:

I don't even know why I'm posting this, except I feel sort of bitchy about being so angry about this, and where else I can I bitch this freely but The Pit? I wish I could just take Shine and run, but she'll just keep having more and more and more-- she's only 29, so just imagine how many more she can pump out before menopause? She's the poster girl for forced sterilization of the insane. Grrrrr....

[jlzania]

You need another kid like you need a HOLE in your HEAD
I don't think that's the hole we should be concerned about,really.
This summer, she had 5 kids all under the age of 8 by 3 different men. .
All in one summer eh?
That's quite a feat.

Maybe she's related to the 32 year old woman with 10 kids in a one bedroom apartment.
She's an idiot.

[Rubystreak]

She didn't have the five kids all in one summer, but she did have 5 kids total THIS summer. Next summer she'll have six. But hey, split semantic hairs however you want; the bottom line is, this whore is spawning like a rabbit.

[Loneraven]

I have to ask this question, in the same way as I have to peer out the window when I drive past a motorway pile-up.

What are the other kids' names?

[Rubystreak]

Sunny Day
Shine Ray
Wanda
Iris
Maya

The last two are fine, IMO, so maybe she's wised up a bit. But the first three fucking KILL me. Wanda? What little girl needs to grow up with THAT? If I adopted Shine Ray, I think I would have slowly transitioned him over to using Ray as his first name. He could be S. Ray Lake when he grows up. Poor thing.

What are the logistical realities behind adopting a 5 year old? With the consent of the mother? I know I'm bloody insane to even consider it, but I love that kid and he needs a real mommy, not a bitch in heat whelping baby after baby, ignoring him.

[Helen's Eidolon]

"Sunny Day". My lord!

That's a sucky situation and I'm sorry.

[J String]

Wanda? What little girl needs to grow up with THAT?

What's wrong with Wanda? (the name ain't just for fish y'know)

[lezlers]

It's admirable to be willing to take in Shine.

People like this woman make me physically ill. If she's so intent on breeding like a fucking rabbit, and couldn't care less about keeping the children, why doesn't she become a surrogate mother or something, so she'd at least be helping people?

[Rubystreak]

I'm fucking sorry too. I'm sorry that people can behave this way, feel totally righteous about it, never work, pay taxes, or improve the world in any way, have unprotected sex all over the place, and get exactly what they want in life. The government pays for her housing, food, clothing, doctor bills, and upkeep. She will ask you for the food out of your mouth, the car out from under your ass, the clothes off your back, without the slightest embarrassment, because she's ENTITLED to all these things. She has even been known to do this with cigarettes, alcohol, and pot. Not to mention, you should SEE the assholes she lets babysit. Stoned, stupid hippies with lice who haven't been sober for two days in a row since the Reagan administration.

All she has to do to maintain this is keep having babies. I simply cannot fathom how she can live with herself, how she can be trying to give away babies one week and have another the next. I swear to God, the last time I saw her, I didn't know she was knocked up, and she asked me again when I was going to take Shine. This was in October.

Fuck HER.

All this said, the kids are quite endearing, cute, and weird. I fear for them.

[lezlers]

Have you thought about calling CPS?

[Ilsa_Lund]

Fuck HER.

Umm, bad idea.

[Rubystreak]

Ilsa, if she was fucking ME, she wouldn't have 6 kids. Unfortunately for the world, she's heterosexual.

As for calling CPS, it's extraordinarily hard to get them to do anything where the only abuse is an absent-minded neglect. She certainly doesn't beat the kids, they seem to eat about once or twice a day, and bathe once a week whether they need it or not. I think all that involving CPS would do would be to piss her off. Not that I care about that, but at least the kids have each other. They do seem to like each other.

[SoulFrost]

How about endangerment, then?

Next time one of those fine upstanding citizens is watching over her brood while Mama's out living it up, have CPS swing by her place for a visit.

[TeaElle]

Not endangerment, but benign neglect. If CPS were called, they'd probably suggest some parenting classes. And there's no way that Hippy Dippy Idiot could be any worse off if she had a little education pounded into her thick skull. Geez.

[Anniee]

It's quite obvious she shouldn't have more children. But propagating the ridiculous myth of "overpopulation" might not be the best way to go. It isn't true, first of all.

There are a lot of resources debunking that stuff. Please look into them.

http://home.swbell.net/birons/myths.html

[Anniee]

Do people still think CPS is this benevolent nanny who holds out a helping hand and suggests "classes"?

No there's no way this woman could be worse off, but the children certainly could be. Like if they're shoved into an abusive foster home where they're 11 times more likely to be injured or killed than at home. Even their home. This mom is a jerk and she needs to be forced to take on her responsibilities, but CPS can't/won't help her or the kids. Not coddling people and giving them money for their irresponsibility is a start.

[margin]

God, this just makes me ill. Those poor kids. Even well-parented little kids soak up attention: I cannot imagine five of them.

I saw a woman on the bus last week who I thought of when I read the OP. She couldn't have been in her late twenties, but she had six kids with her. Turns out she was watching them for someone, but she didn't have enough bus fare, so she had to get off. Forgot one of the kids behind; had to run after the bus, with the little kids trailing like snotty-nosed train cars behind her, wailing and waving their little mittens. I'm just glad she noticed before the bus had really gotten going.

Your acquaintance? Needs to have her tubes tied----probably around her neck.

[superstar]

Originally posted by Rubystreak
Unfortunately for the world, she's heterosexual.



It's not often you hear those words! If only it was seen as a blessing to be Gay.... sorry, back to the topic.

MaybeRuby she's not as happy with her life as she makes out. Perhaps she's in denial, or just trying to ignore the stupid situation she has gotten herself into with the booze, and pot.

I wouldn't be suprised that when alone she knows exactly what she's doing, and wonders how her life got this fucked up. I'm sure when she was younger she had dreams of being something special, and doing something worthwhile with her life.

Maybe adopting the little one is not such a bad idea. At least you could save one child. But that's a pretty big bloody step I know.

There are so many people out there who can't have children. Potential parents who would be awesome, there has got to be a way to connect the two groups up. I have a problem with the concept of kids being raised by their birth mother as always being the better option. Because it's not. I was adopted and had a great life. When I was 22 I saw whereI could have ended up and I was relieved that I was adopted.

Don't ignore this situation, help those kids.

[margin]

Well, I have to say, if the OP doesn't feel capable of taking on the one kid, she'd be remiss if she did so out of guilt. Superstar is right, there are lots of people who'd love to have those kids. The OP sounds like quite a decent sort, but adopting a kid is a huge, huge decision.

[big_yellow_kingswood]

OK, it's sunday morning here and my brain isn't in the best shape, so please bear with me.

From what I'm hearing here it seems that your child protection services are a little different from mine - I'm a paediatric social worker in a children's hospital and have some dealings with the Australian (NSW) version.

The way I'm seeing the situation is that there's 6 kids between -6 months and 8 years (can you give more info on their ages?) living in a situation where they are, at best, at serious risk of neglect or at worse currently being neglected.

There are ways of describing the situation to Child Protection that increase the chances of something happening. But I'd like to ask a few things.

The older kids - are they going to school? What's their attendance like? How's their behaviour at school? Their grades?

The five year old doesn't talk much - is there some sort of developmental delay? When he does talk would you say it's with a normal 5yo's vocabulary? When he does talk, what does he talk about?

You say she's asking people to take her children, and your tone suggests that she's doing this completely seriously (I'm sure you appreciate that it's a hard thing to believe, although I have seen worse). Who does she ask? People she knows and trusts who can take proper care of the kids, her stoner babysitters or complete randoms?

These babysitters, what do you know about them? Do they smoke pot heavily in front of the kids? Exposing children to drug use is abuse in itself.

Is there any violence in any of her relationships?

Have you every had any suspicions of any sexual abuse of the children? This can including mum/others having sex in front of the kids, exposure to sexually explicit material, innappropriate discussion of sex with the children, as well as engaging the children in sexual activity. Signs of this can include the kids using sexually explicit language, showing age inappropriate knowledge of sex, drawing sex based pictures, sex play with dolls or other toys, touching other children in a sexual manner (barring normal developmental curiosity).

Could you elaborate on the 'need for attention' and 'emotional problems'? Emotional abuse is just as real and damaging as physical abuse but a lot harder to spot.

These are some of the issues that your local Child Protection Services will be interested in. If you can provide them with a more specific indication of the children's situation they should be more likely to respond. Also consider discussing making a report with other concerned parties. One report is usually ignored, but if they receive 4 or 5 reports from different people they might take notice.

Of course, I'm just going off my experiences with my local child protection team. They're far from what they could be, but better than nothing.

[E.T. Bass]

You know, what apes me is that my wife and I have been trying to have ONE baby for the past two years or so, with absolutely no results and people like her with 5 kids can conceive no problem. Now she's working on kid number 6. Jesus, she's half way to the new Steve Martin movie.

I have a problem with people being on welfare who can work, but who seem to have the money to drink and smoke dope. I'm an irresponsible pot smoking bastard too, but I use my own money.

I also have a problem with anybody having more than 3 kids in this day and age due to overpopulation of the planet and the ditribution of wealth. 25 years from now, you will see these kids working 60 hours a week in a dead end job to survive. I mean, one might break out and get a scholarship to college, but with that family life, the chances are way against that.

Maybe you can take a collection to get her a hysterectomy. I'll throw in a dollar.

ET

[Zabali_Clawbane]

Sunny Day
Shine Ray
Wanda
Iris
Maya
The last two are fine, IMO, so maybe she's wised up a bit. But the first three fucking KILL me. Wanda? What little girl needs to grow up with THAT?

Hey! My beloved mother's name is Wanda. (Not kidding!) Yeah, ok she was born in 1932 (She had me when she was 40.) and the name was more common in those days. She did get teased by kids at school about her name, but from what I've seen kids will MAKE SOMETHING UP about your name to tease you if that's what they want to do. My mother was admired by my friends during my school years, none of them ever thought to sneer at her name after getting to know her.


Back on track, do think about CPS for those poor kids. :(

[TeaElle]

Originally posted by Anniee
Do people still think CPS is this benevolent nanny who holds out a helping hand and suggests "classes"? Benevolent nanny, no. Interventionist in cases where the situation requires intermediary assistance but does not warrant removal of the children, yes. I'm sorry if your experiences with CPS has been adversarial, but my experiences with them (admittedly not as a parent) have not shown them to be the jackbooted, overreactive thugs that they often seem to be in extreme situations.

This is not yet an extreme situation, but this is a situation with children who need help and a parent who doesn't know what the hell she's doing. If someone -- with the weight of law behind them -- can step in and head these problems off at the pass now perhaps we can avoid these kids ending up split apart, in abysmal foster care situations or worse. These are children who are in need of protection, that's exactly what child protective services are for.

[astro]

Originally posted by E.T. Bass
You know, what apes me is that my wife and I have been trying to have ONE baby for the past two years or so, with absolutely no results and people like her with 5 kids can conceive no problem. Now she's working on kid number 6. Jesus, she's half way to the new Steve Martin movie.

I have a problem with people being on welfare who can work, but who seem to have the money to drink and smoke dope. I'm an irresponsible pot smoking bastard too, but I use my own money.
ET

Might want to check this out

Sperm Burn Out, Less Potent When Men -- or Women -- Smoke Marijuana (http://content.health.msn.com/content/article/75/89678.htm)

[SweetLucy]

Originally posted by astro
Might want to check this out

Sperm Burn Out, Less Potent When Men -- or Women -- Smoke Marijuana (http://content.health.msn.com/content/article/75/89678.htm)

Now this is a good argument for decriminalizing pot :D not that I use the stuff.

[kung fu lola]

Originally posted by Anniee
It's quite obvious she shouldn't have more children. But propagating the ridiculous myth of "overpopulation" might not be the best way to go. It isn't true, first of all.

There are a lot of resources debunking that stuff. Please look into them.

http://home.swbell.net/birons/myths.html

I clicked on these links and they seem to either be dead, or linked to religious fundamentalist/politically conservative organisations.

One of them defined "overpopulation" as a situation where no humans can obtain enough food and water to live. Ridiculous.

[Rubystreak]

Anniee, sweetie, if you don't think there are too many human beings on the planet, then I don't think you and I live on the same planet. Overpopulation is the BIGGEST problem facing our planet today, and all the other environmental problems flow from it, IMO. You're not going to dissuade me from that with your citation of a source. Sorry. Take that jive elsewhere.

Superstar: Mom doesn't act like she's happy with her life. She complains a LOT, but mostly it's about how she can't find a decent man. She's guy crazy, honestly. I tell her, she's not likely to find a man who wants to take on 5 kids, but she says, "the RIGHT man will!" and keeps looking.

Also, I'm sorry, but I DON'T buy this whole idea that she's trapped, poor her. Fucking use birth control. They give away condoms like they're going out of style (and with her, they are out of style), and Planned Parenthood would give her the birth control of her choice for free. She does not want to use it. She does not "believe" it in, so when she complains that she has no car, or can't go to the bar with us, I want to say, "Yeah, but you have your lovely children, don't you? Go home and read them a book, ya moron!"

[i]Originally posted by big_yellow_kingswood
The older kids - are they going to school? What's their attendance like? How's their behaviour at school? Their grades?

I don't have much of this information; I have been avoiding this woman, remember? I know the 8 and 5 year old (he may be 6 now) go to school now, though I don't think they did before. I have no idea what their attendance is like, or their behavior.

The five year old doesn't talk much - is there some sort of developmental delay? When he does talk would you say it's with a normal 5yo's vocabulary? When he does talk, what does he talk about?

I believe Shine is delayed but can't make an official diagnosis, of course. He only speaks when spoken to and will answer a direct question, but will not strike up a conversation. Usually when I hang out with him, it involves him crawling into my lap, putting his arms around me, and holding me for long periods of time. Iris (3) will also do this, for HOURS and HOURS. However, Sunny (8), Wanda (4), and Maya (1) will usually not let just anyone touch them. Maya takes to certain people, and she and Sunny are very close. In fact, Sunny once told me that he's sick of caring for babies. I feel so sorry for him.

You say she's asking people to take her children, and your tone suggests that she's doing this completely seriously (I'm sure you appreciate that it's a hard thing to believe, although I have seen worse). Who does she ask? People she knows and trusts who can take proper care of the kids, her stoner babysitters or complete randoms?

As far as I know, she's only asked me to take Shine and a close friend of mine to take Maya (but who knows? maybe she's shilling them on the street corner). My friend just turned 21, and while she is an amazing, enlightened, wonderful person, she's a college student and couldn't have a baby right now. I am in a better position to have a kid; I'm 32, I teach middle school, and I make a decent way for myself. I'm a good choice for a mommy and I love Shine to pieces. However, if I wanted a kid, I'd bloody well have one of my own.

These babysitters, what do you know about them? Do they smoke pot heavily in front of the kids? Exposing children to drug use is abuse in itself.

They seem like lameass, stoned hippes to me, but I have no idea what they do in front of the kids, as I've never been there for such a scenario. I was appalled by her choice of caregivers and told her so, but she reassured me they were cool. Right. Because "cool" is my #1 criterion for a babysitter.

Is there any violence in any of her relationships?

I can be pretty sure there isn't. She wouldn't put up with that. I haven't seen her ever hit her kids, either. They are pretty well-behaved, considering.

Have you every had any suspicions of any sexual abuse of the children?

Not at all. I don't know if Mom has sex in front of the kids-- I mean seriously, how WOULD I know that? The kids have never behaved in a sexualized manner that I've ever seen, but remember, only 2 of them ever really talk.

Could you elaborate on the 'need for attention' and 'emotional problems'? Emotional abuse is just as real and damaging as physical abuse but a lot harder to spot.

Sunny is very needy for attention. He will follow my friends and me around, trying to get us to play with him, and wants to play rough (tackling, throwing things at people, etc.) but will pretend to be injured and suddenly burst into tears for no reason, hide his face, and become hostile. If you walk away from this behavior, he'll follow you again. It's weird. Shine and Iris are physically clingy and affectionate. Wanda rarely talks or smiles, as does Maya. A one year old who never smiles is downright odd to me.

Maya had impetigo on her bottom this summer, which led to an emergency room visit. However, Mom didn't cover it and was letting the kid run all over the place with this infection on her ass. The kids are never really clean and are always hungry.

Mom has little time to spend one on one with them, and I'm sure she never reads to them or anything. Sunny is the only one who is at all articulate; Iris loves to talk, but it's very hard to understand her. She has a speech impediment, a lisp that makes her words difficult to decipher. Wanda is sharp as a tack and cunning as hell, but very selective about who she'll talk to. Shine is shy and withdrawn; I have made it a point to be attentive to him, and he always gives me a big smile. Once, we were at a festival and I was buying him a balloon animal. The balloon guy referred to me as Shine's mom; he looked up at me, shrugged, and did not correct the man.

I am not sure foster care is the answer here, either. While Mom is a total loser, the kids care about each other and look out for each other. As I said before, Sunny takes care of Maya and is very attached to her. I'd hate to see them split up, another reason why I'm reluctant to take Shine. He'd be lonely. Overall, they remind me of the children of Okies who were moving west during the Depression. Sad, but it could be far worse.

No, what makes me mad is the thought that she could be up to 10 or 12 by the time she's 40. Truly horrifying, and no one can stop her.

[ivylass]

Originally posted by Rubystreak

Sunny is very needy for attention. He will follow my friends and me around, trying to get us to play with him, and wants to play rough (tackling, throwing things at people, etc.) but will pretend to be injured and suddenly burst into tears for no reason, hide his face, and become hostile. If you walk away from this behavior, he'll follow you again. It's weird. Shine and Iris are physically clingy and affectionate. Wanda rarely talks or smiles, as does Maya. A one year old who never smiles is downright odd to me.

Maya had impetigo on her bottom this summer, which led to an emergency room visit. However, Mom didn't cover it and was letting the kid run all over the place with this infection on her ass. The kids are never really clean and are always hungry.

Mom has little time to spend one on one with them, and I'm sure she never reads to them or anything. Sunny is the only one who is at all articulate; Iris loves to talk, but it's very hard to understand her. She has a speech impediment, a lisp that makes her words difficult to decipher. Wanda is sharp as a tack and cunning as hell, but very selective about who she'll talk to. Shine is shy and withdrawn; I have made it a point to be attentive to him, and he always gives me a big smile. Once, we were at a festival and I was buying him a balloon animal. The balloon guy referred to me as Shine's mom; he looked up at me, shrugged, and did not correct the man.

(emphasis mine)

This part just broke my heart. I think the part about cleanliness and hunger is enough to get the children taken away. I think foster care would try to keep the children together, but anything is better than this neglect. Shine wants you to hold him all the time because he's not getting that from his "mother," and probably has to store that up until he sees you again.

Forget talking sense to this woman. She's causing harm to her children, and I think you need to act in their best interests.

[big_yellow_kingswood]

What you're describing is a pretty clear-cut case of neglect, which is legally synonymous with child abuse (at least where I am). If the kids are never clean/always hungry they are not having their basic needs met. This goes double if one of them had a medical problem which was not being addressed. Also, their 'needy'/'don't touch me'/never smile behaviour to me would strongly suggest the lack of proper emotional care, which constitutes pretty bad emotional abuse. If they're like this now, imagine in 15-20 years time. What sort of relationships do you think they'll get into? It's pretty scary.

I'd suggest that you call you local CPU and inform them that there are six children (including 1 unborn) living in a situation of neglect. Their basic food, hygene and medical needs are not being met adequately. They are often placed in potentially unsafe environments (I don't like the sound of those babysitters) including sometimes being left to care for each other (reading into the 8 year old's 'caring for babies' comment).
The children's behaviour is indicative of emotional neglect. They present emotionally as either highly dependent on others or extremely detached. The mother does not provide adequate attention to the children.

I'm hearing a bit of reluctance to make a report to Child Protection, one reason being that you don't want to split them up over different foster homes. In my experience fostering is usually the very last option (unless the kid is at risk of SERIOUS harm) so most likely they'll be able to stay with her. There are very few people who are willing to foster neglected kids (if only 'cause so many of the kids are ratbags - I'm not being nasty, it's just how it is through no fault of their own). CP'll probably have a talk with mum about her lifestyle and offer to put some services at her disposal such as parenting skills help, respite, financial assistance, D&A counselling, and so on. They should also inform her that neglect of children is a criminal act, and if she doesn't shape up then not only may she lose the kids, but she could be up in court on abuse/neglect charges.

Most reporting lines allow you to be annonymous so you can give tham a call and run over the situation to see what they'll say. I know that a lot of Child Potection services get a bad rap in the press quite often, but generally they do a good job in a tough situation and they do exist for the benefit of the children in question.

Good luck

[Rubystreak]

I am going to look into hotlining her ASAP. I work in a school, so I will be able to get this info pretty easily, and it's anonymous, so she won't be trying to kick my ass or anything. She just moved, so I'm not sure where she lives now, but could find out.

I am really worried that she's smoking pot while pregnant. My friend's mother is a pediatric nurse at the hospital. I gave her this woman's name, and she said she can authorize a marijuana test on her for suspicion of drug abuse, in which case CPS is automatically called.

Thanks for all the advice. I was concerned when I posted this that people were going to flame me for being so judgemental. I'm glad that I'm actually underreacting and should feel justified in doing more, so I'm going to do it.

[ivylass]

I don't think you can ever underreact when a child's welfare is at stake. You trust your gut, and let us know how it turns out.

[missbunny]

How very sad. Please do contact CPS. Maybe they can do nothing but if they don't know about it they'll definitely do nothing. I would think offering up one's children to various random people in order to "get them off her hands" is enough to get noticed down at the social service agency, if not the state of half-neglect the kids seem to be in.