The French Nuclear Weapons Program-Why?

[egkelly]

(1) Why is France continuing to develop (and test) nuclear weapons? The “evil empire” is long gone, so what are the French worried about? Also, nuclear weapons development is expensive, and the French economy is not doing too well and why do they insist on pissing off the Australians and Kiwis (with the nuclear bomb tests off Tahiti)?
Are there any SD’s from France who can enlighten us? I did talk to a French grad student once, who gave me his take on the issue: yes, the weapons program costs the French a ton of money. The reason they are doing it is the following:
France sees the Moslem countries of N. Africa (Morocco, Algeria) as headed for a social meltdown. The French general staff is convinced that Algeria will probably experience an Islamic revolution, like Iran. They feel that this will be such a threat to mainland France, that nuclear weapons are the only defense possible.
Other than that, who could possibly worry them-I mean, the Brits certainly have no plan to invade la belle pays!

[Ike Witt]

The Russians and the British were never the reason behind the French nuke program to begin with. The reason the "cheese eating surrender monkeys" developed the bomb was due to those two lovely German invasions last century. You know how hard it is for the French to thank the rest of the Allies that bailed them out, and they never want to be in that position again.

------------------
The Stanley Cup: A repeat is in the STARS!

[tracer]

I thought they were just doing it 'cause they were pissed about "Lingua Franca" no longer meaning La Lingua Franca.

[Arnold Winkelried]

What reasons would the french have not to have a nuclear arsenal?

When you see all the major world powers surrounding you have nuclear weapons, well of course you'd want some too! Otherwise you're admitting that you are a second-class country. Or to put it another way, why does the USA have a nuclear arsenal?

[ignatiusjreilly]

France's development of the bomb is just like their insistance that they be involved in world politics - France can't seem to admit that France is no longer the world power that France once was 200 years ago, so France will continue to act like it's a world power in the hopes of fooling someone into thinking that they really are.

Same thing for the UK, too, but I think the UK is a little more resigned to its role as the peppy little sidekick Robin to the U.S. Batman.

[Esprix]

{launching into his best Tom Lehrer}

"First we got the bomb, and that was good,
'Cause we love peace and motherhood.
Then Russia got the bomb, but that's okay,
'Cause the balance of power's maintained that way.

Who's next?

France got the bomb, but don't you grieve,
'Cause they're on our side (I believe).
China got the bomb, but have no fears,
They can't wipe us out for at least five years.

Who's next?

Then Indonesia claimed that they
Were gonna get one any day.
South Africa wants two, that's right:
One for the black and one for the white.

Who's next?

Egypt's gonna get one too,
Just to use on you know who.
So Israel's getting tense,
Wants one in self defense.
"The Lord's our shepherd," says the Psalm,
But just in case - we better get a bomb.

Who's next?

Luxembourg is next to go,
And who knows? Maybe Monaco.
We'll try to stay serene and calm
When Pat Buchanan* gets the bomb.

Who's next?
Who's next?
Who's next?
Who's next?"

Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week.

Esprix

(*replace with your own Idiot Of Choice here that would scare the bejeesus out of you if he/she/it/they got the bomb - the original was "Alabama")

------------------
Ask the Gay Guy! (http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html) (or, if you prefer the Jesusfied version, Asketh the damn Priest Guy! (http://www.askjesus.org/ask.cgi?http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html))

[Ike Witt]

Esprix, that was great. Do you do bar mitzvahs?

------------------
The Stanley Cup: A repeat is in the STARS!

[Boris B]

I guess I don't know what constitutes a great world power any more. France is the fifth largest military spender in the world, and a major component of the G8, th UN, and the European Union. I don't know if not having nuclear weapons would change this or not, but in any case France is definitely a great world power, unless you define great world power as "the United States".

------------------
Hopefully, I can convince you to accept "hopefully" as a disjunct adverb.
Frankly, I would be lying if I said I were confident.
Perhaps this subject is simply too complex for me to explain.
Unfortunately, I would be lucky to explain my way out of a paper bag.

[Esprix]

Originally posted by adam yax:

Esprix, that was great. Do you do bar mitzvahs?

They say I'm pretty fly for a rabbi... :D

Esprix

------------------
Ask the Gay Guy! (http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html) (or, if you prefer the Jesusfied version, Asketh the damn Priest Guy! (http://www.askjesus.org/ask.cgi?http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html))

[GaWd]

Who's next?

India and Palestine;
Probably fighting over a shrine;
They certainly made a real mess,
and tried to piss off the U.S.

AcK!! Sorry for my terrible verse skills, Just thought I'd add to Esprix's post.

ME

[Weirddave]

Pakastan(sp?), not Palistine. Sorry that spoils the rhyme.

------------------
Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.

[Andy]

Originally posted by egkelly:
(1) Why is France continuing to develop (and test) nuclear weapons? The “evil empire” is long gone, so what are the French worried about? Also, nuclear weapons development is expensive, and the French economy is not doing too well and why do they insist on pissing off the Australians and Kiwis (with the nuclear bomb tests off Tahiti)?

What a strange question. It almost seems as if the implication is 'why should any country other than the USA have nuclear weapons?'.
Are you saying that the French have no potential enemy to point their nukes at, it has always been pocket change used by the US to pay for their own nuclear weapons and everybody worldwide always thought their development and adoption was a wonderful idea?

[Esprix]

Originally posted by GaWd:

Just thought I'd add to Esprix's post.

Ah, well, it's not mine - the song is "Who's Next?" by the 60's political commentator, satirical songwriter, and all around insane guy Tom Lehrer. The line about France reminded me of this topic.

Esprix

------------------
Ask the Gay Guy! (http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html) (or, if you prefer the Jesusfied version, Asketh the damn Priest Guy! (http://www.askjesus.org/ask.cgi?http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html))

[Max Torque]

Question, for those who think France doesn't have anyone to point its nukes at:

What makes the other Americans here think that the French are so fond of us?

I'm reminded of a poster that hung up in a secure building I used to work in: Countries don't have friends. They have interests.

[Boris B]

Now that I think about, it seems like a nuclear weapons program is more a function of the size of the country's military program than anything else. The single exception might be Japan, the world's fourth largest defense spender, which doesn't have a nuclear weapons program for obvious philosophical reasons.

Of course, maybe I'm getting the "arrow of causality" backwards; maybe countries with nuclear programs have higher defense budgets just because nukes are so expensive.... Actually, I'm not as much interested in the causality. Really, I can't see why it's a surprise that France has nuclear weapons, when China, Britain, and India do.

[Crusoe]

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Japan, South Africa and Israel were added to that list, but I don't have any hard facts to back that up.

It seems to be that nuclear countries are the ones who either were very big on the international politics stage, or feel they ought to be.

------------------
Crusoe Takes A Trip (http://www.fervent.co.uk/)

[pro nobis]

With Germany being the economic powerhouse on the continent, France needed something to brag about. Yes, the French do see their culture dwindling outside of their borders, and they need to garner attention somehow. Plus, it also tells Germany, you may have money, but you aint ever gonna attack us again.

[Spiny Norman]

Actually, I think it's stranger that France (and, for that matter, Great Britain) spent money on their own nukes during the cold war. Back then, any military conflict big enough to escalate into a nuclear exchange would have been between Nato and the Warsaw Pact. And even if the bombs were American, Nato did have (more than) enough.

But now, I guess I could see a rationale of sorts: The Warsaw Pact is history, the old East/West stand-off is over - and new power blocks might emerge, as Russia finds it footing, the East Bloc countries get themselves sorted out and (perhaps) the EU figures out how to be a serious player.

Faced with those changing power structures, I sure as hell would try to hold on to as much military capacity as I could, if I was CINC of the French Army.

Norman

[The Sip'n Fly]

Hey, don't insult Britain

remember, they do have the Commonwealth of Nations on a leash, and you don't want to mess with the Commonwealth of Nations.

Trust me.

Britain is in no way the sidekick of the US

Notice that during this century, the United States has only been on the winning side in wars that Britain fought also?

The US is damn lucky Britain was powerful enough to beat down the Germans during the Battle of Britain because if Hitler took the British Isles, The US would be next, and the US gov would have no where to run, so the Exiled British government in Australia or South Africa would have to come and rescue you.

------------------
"I shot the sherrif, I shot the deputy too. No, it wasn't in self defense. They both looked at me cockeyed so I capped 'em. Then I shot the mayor, then the firechief, decapitated the librarian, impaled the dog catcher, used a spoon to remove the groundskeepers eyes and sent the leader of the local KKK in full KKK uniform to downtown Manhattan. Then I made sweet love to the sexy 18 yr old intern, and it was all good."

[The Sip'n Fly]

I have this feeling that the third world war will be

Japan and the United States

versus...

Everybody

Evidently, the US and Japan are royally fucked.

------------------
"I shot the sherrif, I shot the deputy too. No, it wasn't in self defense. They both looked at me cockeyed so I capped 'em. Then I shot the mayor, then the firechief, decapitated the librarian, impaled the dog catcher, used a spoon to remove the groundskeepers eyes and sent the leader of the local KKK in full KKK uniform to downtown Manhattan. Then I made sweet love to the sexy 18 yr old intern, and it was all good."

[WallyM7]

Sip, are you really stupid, or just pretending?

Where do you get these cockamamie ideas?

[Slithy Tove]

Before this becomes Wally vs Sip, back to the OP of France vs ???: HISTORY BUFF CHALLENGE ALERT

It is odd how DeGaulle put France on a bomb-based "go it alone" track during the Cold War, pissing Uncle Sam off to the extent that every NATO nation's flag was flown in the center courtyard of the Pentagon except the tricolor. Odd to me becuase, offhand, I can't recall one war which the French have won hands-down that did not involve another nation's help, or was not waged against a militarily inferior society. Can any of you?

Remember the ground rules: They had to have won hands-down (no negotiated peace such as the War of Spanish Succession), no allies (such as the Italians in the Franco-Austrian War) and no fish-in-a-barrel shoots such as at the Marquesas Islands.

(Note: no "look who's talking" will be accepted, because I believe that if the Mexicans and Spaniards had gotten their acts together, we'd have been whipped in 1846 and again in 1898)

Myself, I can't help thnking that the French nukes are as much for technolgical as military pride. Unlike the English and Germans, the French don't get the credit they deserve as good engineers. We forget about teflon and the Suez Canal and the Eiffel Tower and instead see France in terms of painting and fancy clothes and cooking. France needs the bomb because if she instead put up a statue commemorating her invention of oral sex, narrow minds in the ouside world would prevail in its lack of appreciation.

[tracer]

I doubt France invented oral sex -- considering there are some other species of great apes (e.g. Bonobos) that do it, too. Bonobos don't even watch French TV. ;)

[Spiny Norman]

What - building nukes is supposed to be more impressive than inventing oral sex ? The priorities of some people...

But seriously: France decided to stop cooperating with NATO in the military sense in 1966, remaining as a political member only, which probably explains the tricolore's absence in the Pentagon. They did, however, arrange for cooperation in case of an "unprovoked attack" - in other words, they decided to have their cake and eat it, too. Of course, nobody ever doubted that they'd side with NATO in case of war. But they did have much closer ties with the Soviet Union than any other NATO country.

The French governments over the times have really, really wanted to be perceived as serious players in world politics, and that might actually have been the motivation for their nukes, which is a bit sad. Of course, figuring out the French is not easy for outsiders.

The German archrivals, OTOH, have apparently managed to maneuver themselves into a leading European role without having to invest in weapons of mass destruction.

(And now, Esprix, we're all ready for mr. Lehrer's "MLF lullaby" - take it away!)

Norman

[Slithy Tove]

I give that one to you Arnold. Frankly, I did lump all the beligerency from 1789 to 1815 into one big nasty heap. I can see that I was in error to do so. But allow me to group everything undertaken by Napoleon, either before or after he proclaimed himself emperor, from the Italian campaign until Waterloo, as one war. Yes, he beat the Austrians & Russians at Austerlitz, but then they ultimately returned to take Paris. So can you name another?

[QuickSilver]

Seems to me, the sole reason that France has the atom bomb is so that the rest of the western world does not sneer at them as much as they do at Italy. In truth, most people probably hold Italy and it's people in much higher regard than the French. Despite Mouselini, despite the mafia, despite the Vatican. ;)

[Arnold Winkelried]

Originally posted by Slithy Tove:
Odd to me becuase, offhand, I can't recall one war which the French have won hands-down that did not involve another nation's help, or was not waged against a militarily inferior society. Can any of you?I don't have to go very far! Off the top of my head, I can mention the French revolutionary war, roughly from 1792 to 1801, in which major european powers (Austria, Prussia, Spain, Great Britain) tried to overthrow the french republic and restore the Bourbons to power. The french decisively defeated them. (Of course, when Napoleon decided to try to take over most of Europe, he was surely doomed in the long term, but that was a different war.)

For those of you who say "the Western European powers can depend on the USA for their defense", I have this response: Never depend too much on an ally to help you! Czechoslovakia learned this the hard way in World War II.