My son may be a bit of a prude

[ivylass]

And I suppose that's a good thing, but I didn't think 14 year old boys were supposed to be prudish.

There was a Christmas dance at school yesterday, and the students were supposed to wear Sunday dress, meaning coat and tie. Ivyboy took a shower, cleaned up quite nicely, and I dropped him off at 7:30p. I told him I'd pick him up at 10pm. The school is literally right around the corner, but I didn't want him walking home in the dark.

Anyway, at 8:30p he storms into the house, furious. He said all they played was rap and hip-hop, and all the 13-17-year-old girls and boys were dirty dancing. He was disgusted, because one girl he has a crush on was in the middle of it, and I think he was somewhat disillusioned that she would be a part of that.

Now, granted, I didn't see the dancing, so I don't know how raunchy it was. And I guess it's a good thing my son has better standards than that. Ivylad thinks if Ivyboy's little crush had danced with him like that, he wouldn't have minded, but I don't think so.

So, is there hope for my gentlemanly son in this hedonistic world? I'm tempted to write the school dean about this, since they put such an emphasis on citizenship and being a "XXX Academy Lady or Gentleman."

Or am I hopelessly old-fashioned and out of touch with reality?

[SnoopyFan]

You haven't seen the way kids dance these days, have you?

You should be proud of your son. I hope my kid grows up to expect decency from herself and her love interests.

[Anal Scurvy]

Don't kid yourselves. The kid only had a crush on her because he thought she was attainable. Turns out her low profile was deceptive; she's another cute girl getting attention from higher-status males who he feels totally outclassed by.

I agree with Ivylad.

[Tangent]

Originally posted by ivylass
I'm tempted to write the school dean about this, since they put such an emphasis on citizenship and being a "XXX Academy Lady or Gentleman."

You send your teenage son to a XXX Academy? :eek:

[Saint Zero]

Rejoice! Your son has standards. This will help him when he goes in search of a girlfriend. :)

[Zebra]

At 14 I was still a bit prudish and probably would have been very uncomfortable in a huge group of people dancing, dirty or otherwise.

I'm sure the shock of seeing a girl he had a crush on, maybe even set up a little alter to her in his closet to which he would pray every night, was enough to drive him out of there.

And of course having home so close made it the easiest choice. Choose between overcoming social fear or walking around the corner. I would have choose the walk.

[burundi]

Lots of kids are uptight about their bodies and expressions of sexuality in their early adolescence. I was a lot more prudish at 14 then I am now. While I was quite the wallflower at 14, now folks have to drag me off the dance floor.

I don't know if this was a serious suggestion or not, but please do not write the dean. You weren't there; you didn't see what was going on. All you have is your son's word for it, and, while I'm sure he's a great kid, things may have seemed a bit more extreme to him than they actually were. And, btw, one can shake her booty and still be a good citizen. (At least I hope one can!)

[pepperlandgirl]

Don't write the Dean. I'm sure the dance was chaperoned, nd if the students were doing anything totally inappropriate for their setting/age, the Dean already knows about it.

[A Curious Writer]

I wouldn't write the dean, as it was almost certainly chaperoned. However, i am very proud of your son, as you should be too. And, i would suggest that he write out what he saw as wrong and bring it to the dean's attention himself. You can always call the dean's office later, make sure they got his letter, and say how proud you are of your son and that you hope it was well taken.

And, yes, it's great to see he has standards. Liek me, he already thinks about the future and wants a girl who will be focused on him - and hopefully he will be on her at the same time. It's great to know there's nice, decent people coming out of this new generation.

[Doomtrain]

Originally posted by Tangent
You send your teenage son to a XXX Academy? :eek:

And then is shocked when they start dirty dancing! I figure that'd be tame for an XXX Academy! :D

[ivylass]

Ha ha, very funny. You know very well my children do not attend a school for porn. ;)

I did write a letter to the dean, but I will tell my son he doesn't have to give it to him, and can write one on his own if he likes. At this point my son doesn't want to attend any more dances, which I think is a little sad.

[mangeorge]

Seeing "your girl" paying attention to someone else can be pretty devastating. I have teenage granddaughters, who talk to me, and I can assure you that it works both ways. Boys and girls.
Talk to your son (of course), and try to determine if the actions of others was really what angered him. For most boys of his age, such a reaction would more likely be insecurity than moral outrage. Did he ask her to dance, his way? Does he dance? It's tough, as you know, being a teenager.
Good luck, and don't ignore Ivylad. He is, after all, a guy. ;)
Peace,
mangeorge

[Rabid_Squirrel]

Get your son to write it down, or to say it in front a video camera. Wait until his 21st birthday and ambush him with it. ;)

Sounds like he was a bit gutted over his sort-of-girlfriend. Been there, done that; old wounds heal.

[Shrinking Violet]

I have a daughter a year younger ..... pleeeease may I pencil him in for a future son-in-law? ;)

[Doomtrain]

Originally posted by mangeorge
Seeing "your girl" paying attention to someone else can be pretty devastating.

Yea, after you've built up this mental image of her and then she's out booty dancing with some other guy. Ouch.

[Yorikke]

Originally posted by GMRyujin
Yea, after you've built up this mental image of her and then she's out booty dancing with some other guy. Ouch.

When, surely, all Ivylad really wanted was to be booty-dancing with her himself. At least That's how I felt at 14;)

hrh

[Cyn]

My nephew was the same way. even into his young adulthood. He expressed his disgust to family mostly, so he didn't have a school reputation for prudishness.
Now he's 23 and engaged to a fine young lady even though he avoided most of the school dances.

[Sinungaling]

Yeesh, your son's a real prude. Does he also say dirty dancing leads to venereal disease and insanity? Dancing with joy and abandon does not equal having loose morals or being easy.

Exactly what type of dancing was it, anyway? "Dirty" is such a subjective term, after all. I concur with the people who say that your kid was probably just feeling bad that "his" girl was paying attention to other people.

This is, of course, my own humble opinion.

[mishaa]

The kids were probably "freak dancing". This is where they go beyond Dirty Dancing, think more along the lines of a Hip Hop video. Usually the girl bends over, the guy behind simulating.. well you know what is being simulated.

There an uproar about it a year or so back around here....

[JRDelirious]

A 14-year-old may be a bit put off by displays of bootytude from his classmates? Parents should have such trouble! (But! More on this coming up!)

Prudishness? Disappointment/Disillusionment? Notice the ivyparents can't agree on it. The father (probably in an "ah, for those days when we were expected to act silly" reverie) seems to take the side that it's disappointment at not having been the (exclusive/primary/frequent: pick a degree) target of such attentions from his objet d'crush.

But really, folks, it could be any of a bunch of things, heck, it may have even been the rap that stressed him out. Bog knows that for some rap records even the f^%$%@g beat seems designed to piss off 80% of the population. And I myself am not so much "delirious" as about to go into seizures if forced to spend time at a party where I cannot hold a conversation in a natural tone of voice anywhere in the room.

The boy is telling us he found the goings-on offensive in general, however. Although this is tempered by our knowledge that teenagers can be the fiercest black-or-white all-or-nothing moral absolutists on Earth, his word has to be worth something and if he truly finds the goings-on objectionable it is fine that he stand his ground. After all, the old reliable parental admonishment about what if all the other kids jumped off a bridge applies still. And an early realization that dance parties need not be the be-all and end-all of teen social life opens up time for other activities. (Not so great though, if it is a matter that he is unsure as to how to handle the situation and his choice is to avoid having to handle it in the future, period.)

But there IS one thing that should be of concern, ivy, specially as he mentioned how hard he took that the girl joined in. And that is the risk that he form in his mind a classification structure where anybody who was out there booty-freakin' falls under a heading of "that kind of girl/guy/people". And an expectation that the people he likes are "NOT that kind of..." and cannot possibly be. Because, yes, it may be that there were kids who just lean towards debauchery. But then again maybe many of them are fine young citizens who just like to get down and get in touch with their booty side once in a while. And maybe many others, probably many MORE others, are kids who are not aware they have a choice to NOT join in, who have grown up just hearing and seeing that "this is what you do" to have fun (usually accompanied either explicitly or implicitly by "...or else you're lame/queer/a nerd/weird"). If he gets to understand this, then he can make his stand on principles, quietly, w/o cutting himself off from his peers.

jrd

[msmith537]

IANAP but:

Sounds like your kid maybe put this girl on a bit of a pedestal. This could be a problem because he isn't viewing her as a person or even sexually. He's viewing her as some sort of chaste and pure prize. This leads to to frustration or anger at seeing his pure creature acting in a way that doesn't fit his expectations.

It may prevent him from entering into normal relationships with women because he may never find a women who meets his high standards. If he is in a relationship, he may continue to get angry or even abusive as his mate exhibits "inappropriate" behavior and he is unable to deal with his own inadequacies.


If your kid is going to grow up to be a psycho, it's better that he becomes a Patrick Bateman (the rich, good looking investment banker sexual predator from American Psycho), not a Norman Bates (the impotent middle-aged nutjob who lived with his mom in Psycho) .

[LifeOnWry]

Don't fret, ivylass. I believe your son is right. I have chaperoned these dances. My daughter is a middle schooler, so we're talking 12-13 year olds, and I have seen this dirty dancing. It is COMPLETELY inappropriate, IMHO, and much of it does simulate sex acts, leaving very little to the imagination. And, you're not the first person even here to mention the bad music. A high school age Doper started a Pit thread abot the very same thing awhile back. My daughter requested a DJ to play a song by a band called Bowling For Soup at a dance. The song has the phrase "I gave her love, she gave me an STD" in it, and the DJ told her he would not be allowed to play the song because of the adult content. He then proceeded instead to play the song "Last Resort" by Papa Roach (lyrics here: http://www.metrolyrics.com/lyrics/7883/Papa_Roach/Last_Resort/ )

Yeah. That made sense.

It's <i>possible</i> that Ivyboy was just disapppointed that "his" girl was dancing with someone other than him - 14 year old boys in general can get pretty possessive - but given the behavior I've seen at some dances, I would not be a bit surprised to find that others WERE acting inappropriately and that the adults chaperoning were oblivious, only because I have seen this in action. And I'm all for standing up for your principles, however unpopular they may be.

[Astra]

Hey, I've been in his shoes.

I went to my senior prom and was totally appalled at what passed for "dancing." I spent a lot of time standing to the side, very uncomfortable. Rubbing my butt against my date's crotch was something I wasn't willing to do to blend in with the crowd.

At the end of the night, they did a garter exchange. I had no idea this was a tradition (I was new to the area and this was my first and only prom). Imagine my surprise when the DJ starts playing what sounds like stripper music, the guys line up across from their dates, the girls hike their skirts up seductively, and the guys are encouraged to remove the garters with their teeth. Then the girls remove the guys' bowtie and take it as a souvinir.

I was sitting to the side with my jaw on the floor.

Yeah, maybe he is just upset because of a girl - but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss his disgust at the dancing. I was looking for fun, not Christina Aguilera's "Dirrrty" video.

[TheLoadedDog]

Yes, that style of dancing is way out of place.

Trust your son, and be proud of him. I'd write to the Dean.

[Askance]

I'd want some independent verification of what went on there before taking any action whatsoever.

Without casting aspersions, consider that his account could be biased by his thwarted feelings for the girl.

[Ludovic]

At least he did better than I would do, which is walk out of the place once I heard them playing rap.

[Sethra-chan]

...

Where were young men like your son when *I* was a shy and demure young lass of 14??? Back when I *needed* them???!

Heck, I'm going to steal a march on Shrinking Violet's idea. I have a sister turning fifteen soon, can I talk you into letting them exchange emails? ^_- I can attest to her status as a sweet and unspoiled young thang.

[Dinaroozie]

I used to be like Ivyboy - still am, in fact, except that I'm four years older. There are some males that aren't sex-obsessed; parhaps he's one of them?

~ Isaac

[ivylass]

Well, I talked to him, and he said that he finds such dancing disrespectful. He agreed to talk to the dean himself, and I reminded him of the old business axiom...If you mention a problem without a solution, you're just complaining. So he's going to make some suggestions, like playing different types of music or teaching more traditional styles of dancing.

I'm not talking about Pleasantville here, but I think it is possible for the pendulum to swing just as hard in the other direction.

And mrsmith, how the hell do you make the leap from having standards to turning out to be a psychotic killer? Bit of a leap there, no?

[Stonebow]

This sounds like a fine, upstanding, young man. We've had some of the same issues at my college (I'm in student programming and sometimes the more devout kids will object to the music/dancing we have at dances).


As for his lady friend...it can be a crushing thing when you discover thet your pure flower is a freak-nasty ho. It's something that all young men have to go through- your first love is always so idealized- it's almost a form of worship- and the discovery that your prospect is a) a sexual being and b) is willing to be sexual with people other than you in a situation outside of the most romantic, sacred way- can be a rude awakening.

Oh, well. It might hurt a bit, but at least he learned something
about the young lady before becoming too involved with her.

[JRDelirious]

Originally posted by Stonebow
...it can be a crushing thing when you discover thet your pure flower is a freak-nasty ho.

Or it can be the answer to your prayers :D :p if you're of the more "adventurous" bent of teen lad ;) BUT I must reiterate the caution about that a youth ( male or female alike ) should be oriented early on that people are NOT divided into either "pure flower" or "freak-nasty ho".

However it does sound like he's got his act together, ivylass. Excellent on the proposing of alternatives! Maybe some of the kids WILL find out there are other ways to have their fun. Just keep the channels open, it seems he's on a very good heading.

[msmith537]

Originally posted by ivylass
Well, I talked to him, and he said that he finds such dancing disrespectful. He agreed to talk to the dean himself, and I reminded him of the old business axiom...If you mention a problem without a solution, you're just complaining. So he's going to make some suggestions, like playing different types of music or teaching more traditional styles of dancing.


That should win him some friends fast.


Originally posted by ivylass
And mrsmith, how the hell do you make the leap from having standards to turning out to be a psychotic killer? Bit of a leap there, no? [/B]

Because I don't read "he has standards" from the situation you described. You described his mood as "furious". Do you think that is a normal reaction to a high school dance? Because I don't. It is likely a reaction to his failed expectations with this girl.

The other concert I have is how judgemental he is regarding his peers behavior and musical tastes. I think JRDelirious hit the nail on the head with the "they" mentality so I won't rehash it.

No one said he has to like hip hop and rap but that's what the kids are pretty much listening to since...well since 1992 when Dr Dre introduced The Chronic to white mainstream suburbia. In any event, that's what passes for dance music these days. While you might feel more comfortible with the Chicken Dance, your teenage son's tastes should be diverging from yours at this point. WHile every parent dreams of having a nice quiet son who never talks back, never stays out late and is always polite, that may not be helping him grow into an independent adult.

Maybe psycho killer is a bit of an exageration. What I can see is that in a few years, he will find himself perpetually on the outside. Hiding behind his morality, which is a mask for his own inadequacies, he will become angrier and more resentful as "they" always seem to be the ones getting the girl, having the good time and reaping the other rewards in life.




Originally posted by Sethra-chan
Where were young men like your son when *I* was a shy and demure young lass of 14??? Back when I *needed* them???!


Same place they've always been. Holding the wall up at the party, too afraid to approach you. Either that or playing with their collection of dead animals.


By the way, we were still doing the "bootie slap" dance at my 10 yr HS reunion last year.

[StinkPop]

I imagine that at the same time he is furiously professing his disgust at the scene to you, he is furiously masturbating at the thought of being the guy dry-humping his crush on the dance floor.

Not literally at the same time. That would be weird.

[gex gex]

I'd be concerned, Ivylass. Your son sounds very much like a prude. Are there any hardcore conservative schools around - the sort where they don't let the genders mix outside of carefully chaperoned events - that your son can transfer to, so as to not continue attempting to ruin the other mainstream students' fun?

[gex gex]

originally posted by ivylass
Well, I talked to him, and he said that he finds such dancing disrespectful.
I would recommend that if he finds such dancing disrespectful, he should not dance in such a way.

Some problems have very easy solutions.

[Indygrrl]

Originally posted by Stonebow
As for his lady friend...it can be a crushing thing when you discover thet your pure flower is a freak-nasty ho.

Wow, all because she was dancing? I don't know that I'd be so quick to brand a 13-year-old girl as a "ho" just because she was trying to have a good time. It's not her fault he gets uncomfortable easily.

[Stonebow]

Originally posted by Indygrrl
Wow, all because she was dancing? I don't know that I'd be so quick to brand a 13-year-old girl as a "ho" just because she was trying to have a good time. It's not her fault he gets uncomfortable easily.

Well, given the sort of dancing that we're talking about, and the fact the the OP highlighted the fact that her son said that the young lady was 'in the middle of it' I figure that's what his main problem was.
I'm not accusing the young lady of being a ho of any sort, but I'm betting that because of his crush, she went from the purest flower of loveliness to a dirty, nasty ho in his opinion.

Though, to be fair, in my experience the young ladies that get 'in the middle' of these sorts of dances (grinding, groping, simulated sex acts) tend to be dirty, nasty, hoes. God Bless'em. :-)

[misstee]

Whoa, why are you all so quick to jump all over ivykid and ivylass?



He didn't like what he saw, so he left. When he arrived home, he vented to his mom. Some poeple don't think certain behaviors are acceptable, this was apparently something that ivykid found to be inappropriate.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

I'm also a little worried that the following scenario is happening:
* He gets to the dance and things are more sexual than he's ready for; he's also crushed to see that the girl likes other boys.
* He comes home angry, but knows that his parents won't take his anger seriously if he explains that he's sad the girl doesn't like him; instead, he unconsciously changes it so he's angry about how sexual the teenagers were being.
* He just wants to vent, but his mom suggests that he needs to find a solution to the problem. Now he can either admit that the real problem isn't the style of dancing, or he can save face and go along with mom's suggestion.

He may not want to be a prude; he may simply have wanted to vent some anger and disappointment. Be careful that you don't maneuver him into taking a course of action (going to the Dean to protest dirty dancing) that he doesn't really want to take and that will certainly make him into a school pariah if the other kids find out.

If he WANTS to be a pariah, that's a whole nother story. Nothing wrong with that. I'm just worried that a mom's overreacting might end up forcing him into that role.

Of course, I could be totally wrong.
Daniel

[dangermom]

I think he sounds like a great kid with solid values who was disappointed and upset at what was going on. And I know several girls who would be thrilled to meet a guy like that...

[Tommy the Cat]

Kids mature at different rates. He's only 14. At 14 some boys are still waiting to get hair anywhere other than their head. Others have to shave during lunch and be careful that their knuckles drag the ground. Everyone else is somewhere in the middle.

I knew guys who were having sex (at least that's what they said) at 14. I also knew guys who were still bringing Transformers to school at 14. I was somewhere in the middle. I'm 32 now, have a wife and a son and I figure I turned out ok.

It sounds like your son is pretty normal. I think that Left Hand... has some pretty good points. I wouldn't stress too much about it.

[Polycarp]

It occurs to me that, even if Ivyboy has fantasized about doing the dirty with the girl he has a crush on, seeing her behaving highly suggestively with other boys may have been a major turnoff for him. She's not supposed to act like that with them! :)

I think I'd encourage against the letter, for the reasons given, either from him or from you.

And it may not be inappropriate for Ivylass to find an opportune point to raise the issue of female sexuality with her son, in a non-embarrassing mode -- perhaps a neighbor who has gotten pregnant at a relatively young age, or something of the sort. It's been my experience that for one substantial segment of early-teen boys, it's perfectly OK for he and his buds to have sexual thoughts and so on, but the idea that girls might feel much the same is a shocker. A few gentle words from Mom that girls feel much the same way as boys do, with the differences, could be an eye-opener for him.

[msmith537]

Originally posted by Polycarp
And it may not be inappropriate for Ivylass to find an opportune point to raise the issue of female sexuality with her son, in a non-embarrassing mode -- perhaps a neighbor who has gotten pregnant at a relatively young age, or something of the sort. It's been my experience that for one substantial segment of early-teen boys, it's perfectly OK for he and his buds to have sexual thoughts and so on, but the idea that girls might feel much the same is a shocker. A few gentle words from Mom that girls feel much the same way as boys do, with the differences, could be an eye-opener for him. [/B]

Oh yeah..that's what EVERY 14 year old wants to hear. A Bird's N Bees talk from their mom. Ivyboy needs stuff that will make him less uptight, not more.

Not to mention that I would find my mom talking about my sexuality on a message board pretty creepy.


I think once Ivyboy gets past the "pure and chaste angel on a pesdestal" stage of veiwing women and starts seeing them as sex objects, he'll be better off.

[HoldenCaulfield]

Maybe I'm the exception to the rule, but here's my experience:

I'm pretty far from being a prude in, I guess, the popular sense of the term. In fact, if "normal" people really knew the stuff I watch/do they'd think I was a pervert or some sort of sexual deviant. I've been this way since I was in grade school (although the "watch" and most of the good "do" didn't come until later.)

But I've always been grossed out by freaking at dances. I don't look down on the people that do it, but I don't want to be a part of it.

When I first started going out with my current SO, I was a freshman in high school, and she and I used to always laugh or make fun of the people that were freaking; then she told me that she freaked once at a party with her last boyfriend type person. I was just a kid then (or at least more of a kid than I am now) and I totally overreacted and all that stuff. Now I don't really see the dancing thing as a big deal, but I still have the same sort of reservations about stuff like getting drunk and flashing at parties, etc.. (I'm working on being more accepting of the real world...)

So, a couple points:

1. I wouldn't assume he's a prude. He could be prudish about this and completely perverted about everything else.

2. I don't necessarily think he would've found it acceptable or enjoyed it if he had been the one freaking with the girl, I know I would not have.

3. It seems likely that there's this "pure and chaste angel on a pedastal" state that he's in, but don't forget that it can coexist with the "seeing women as sexual objects" stage.

[Polycarp]

This is what I love about this board: we have a "straight from the horse's mouth" source for every conceivable topic. A question about hobbit transportation issues? Ask Buckleberry Ferry A question on Norse mythology? Ask Freyr. And for insights about adolescent sexuality, who better a resource person than Holden Caulfield? :D

Originally posted by msmith537
Oh yeah..that's what EVERY 14 year old wants to hear. A Bird's N Bees talk from their mom. Ivyboy needs stuff that will make him less uptight, not more.

That's why I sugested sidling into the issue of female sexuality by reference to some current local event.

I think once Ivyboy gets past the "pure and chase angel on a pesdestal" stage of veiwing women and starts seeing them as sex objects, he'll be better off. [/B][/QUOTE]

Sure, because we all know that women just [i]love[i] to be viewed as nothing more than sex objects.

:wally

[Polycarp]

This is what I love about this board: we have a "straight from the horse's mouth" source for every conceivable topic. A question about hobbit transportation issues? Ask Buckleberry Ferry A question on Norse mythology? Ask Freyr. And for insights about adolescent sexuality, who better a resource person than Holden Caulfield? :D

Originally posted by msmith537
Oh yeah..that's what EVERY 14 year old wants to hear. A Bird's N Bees talk from their mom. Ivyboy needs stuff that will make him less uptight, not more.

That's why I sugested sidling into the issue of female sexuality by reference to some current local event.

I think once Ivyboy gets past the "pure and chase angel on a pesdestal" stage of veiwing women and starts seeing them as sex objects, he'll be better off. [/B]

Sure, because we all know that women just [i]love[i] to be viewed as nothing more than sex objects.

:wally

[JRDelirious]

Y'know, msmith537, maybe, just maybe, the whole "diverging from your parents' values, and going along with the obnoxious crowd to be accepted by your peers" scene is just one possible way to go through adolescence. Most people I know who were nice, sweet, dutiful young gentlemen and ladies who minded their parents have turned out to be nice, sweet, dutiful adults. And so did most people I know who carried on and acted out as teens. I would not be so quick to suggest the ivyboy is somehow becoming stunted in his essential human-interaction skills because he claims to be upset at something his classmates are doing.

As Holden said more succintly than I, if he truly has objections, he needs to learn to assume an "I don't look down on the people that do it, but I don't want to be a part of it" posture, and he'll be doing just fine.


That should win him some friends fast. IF he comes across as laying some sort of censure against his classmates. (Watch out on that, ivylass!) If OTOH he focuses on accommodating the non-freakin'minority by making available more social opportunities for them, or even for when the general population needs a rest, he may indeed win quite a few friends.

[mangeorge]

When I was in high school, around '61-'62, there was a popular "underground" dance called the "Levi". The boy and girl would undo the top button on their jeans and hook up, boys button to girls buttonhole (hush) and vice-versa. Mostly it was awkward, but it was kinda sexy too.
Not everybody did it.

[DeaganTheWolf]

Gods forbid someone doesn't want to be at a place where all they play is mindless repetitive music. Not all teens love rap. I boycotted most dances because of the idot music, and the freak dancing. I'm not a prude, I'm a metalhead, and frankly that music irritates the hell out of me. I turned out fine.

[msmith537]

Originally posted by Polycarp
I think once Ivyboy gets past the "pure and chase angel on a pesdestal" stage of veiwing women and starts seeing them as sex objects, he'll be better off. [/B]

Sure, because we all know that women just love[i] to be viewed as nothing more than sex objects.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I was kind of kidding. Actually, both extremes are bad and both objectify women. In the "pedestal" stage they are viewed as "prizes" to be won. As "sex objects" they are simply playthings to be used and discarded. Ideally, he should be viewing them as people to have relationships and interact with with. I guess the "sex object" point of view is a little better since he's actually involved, instead of having imaginary relationships with someone he longs from afar.



[i]Originally posted by JRDelirious
Y'know, msmith537, maybe, just maybe, the whole "diverging from your parents' values, and going along with the obnoxious crowd to be accepted by your peers" scene is just one possible way to go through adolescence.


I think it's important that kids eventually form their own set of values and tastes apart from their parents. That doesn't mean they have to turn into obnoxious jerks. Part of growing up is freeing yourself from your parents and picking your own path in life. It's normal that parents should not like the music their kids listen to or the clothes they wear.

[Fang]

I'm with msmith on this one. First, you don't want to say it this way, but he needs to learn to give into a little bit of peer pressure. I know that doesn't sound good, but let me explain. For things that are not as important, social trends and things, he needs to go with the flow sometimes while still maintaining his individuality. This will not only give him credibility when he needs to be an individual on the important things (drugs, cheating, whatever), but also bring him into a situation where he is more comfortable interacting with his peers. Sure, some of the things I'm interested in aren't what people like to talk about -- so in most social situations, I don't talk about them, even if that means I'm sacrificing a little bit of individuality. An aloof "I'm better than them" mentality is a harmful worldview for your son to acquire. Even if he does not want to freak dance himself, it shouldn't ruin his impression of this girl that she likes to do so. Let her do her thing, and go later and talk to her about other stuff if he's not interested in that. Everybody, teens especially, have all sorts of pressures to be like their different influences: parents, peers, friends, whatever. In the end, we are all products of combinations of all those influences, and being a teenager is about learning how to balance them. Maintaining your individuality while being respectful and understanding of others is essential to that. Eventually he will mold anyway, but adopting a more mature attitude now will make the transition easier for him and prevent him from being excluded.

Remember, we are all peer pressured, all the time; it's called society. A few years ago I never would have allowed myself to greet somebody with "sup", and might have looked down on (white) people who did. But now it's just normal, despite the fact that I'm a white engineering student at an Ivy League school. I still dance when necessary at parties, even though I'm not a huge fan of dancing. Why? Because that's what people do, and if I want to meet girls, and, um, know them, that's what's required.

If he takes that approach, of trying to appreciate or at least respect what others are doing, he will end up over time much happier than if he goes to the dean and requests that they play less hip-hop at parties or teach (in what form would this be? mandatory dance class before the dance?) other styles of dancing. I can assure you nobody wants to learn to waltz. Going to the dean will only separate him further from his peers as the narc/crybaby of the grade.

And for the love of God, don't talk to him about sex. It's awkward enough to hear it from your dad, even though that's probably appropriate. Hearing about it from your mom is just cruel.

[askol]

Originally posted by Fang
And for the love of God, don't talk to him about sex. It's awkward enough to hear it from your dad, even though that's probably appropriate. Hearing about it from your mom is just cruel. [/B]

Say what? I'm of the belief that this society has entirely too many sexual hangups (not that we need more sex, just less baggage). It pains me to hear a bright poster advise someone not to have a frank discussion about sex with their children.

[Liberal]

I agree with those who say that the reaction was far more likely emotional than moral. Young teenagers tend to have an extremely active amygdala, and a fairly dormant frontal lobe. I think it was the notion that the object of his crush was with another guy that upset him, and I think that would have been the case no matter whether she was dancing dirty with him or just sipping lemonade and batting her eyes at him. Your son might then have stormed home complaining of how boring everything was — people just sitting and talking.

[gex gex]

Originally posted by JRDelirious
Y'know, msmith537, maybe, just maybe, the whole "diverging from your parents' values, and going along with the obnoxious crowd to be accepted by your peers" scene is just one possible way to go through adolescence.
If everyone took the conservative route, we'd still be back in the 1500s. Thank god there are some teens stupid enough to reject societal norms and carve a new way forward.

[ivylass]

Okay, I have already discussed sex with my son, after catching him the the bathroom looking through a catalog of X-rated videos. I explained to him that is was completely normal and natural, and asked him to make sure such material was not accessible to either me, his younger sister, or his baby cousins. His response? "I've got the coolest mom ever!" His father handles a lot of his questions, because I don't have any brothers.

He did speak to the dean yesterday, and the dean said he did not see any inappropriate dancing. So it is possible my son's impression of the dancing was colored by the fact that the object of his crush was not dancing with him. He also stands by his statement that he does not like "freak" dancing. I suggested that he dance with girls in whatever way he feels most comfortable.

He did attend a choir presentation last night, during which his "crush" sang. After the singing, he gave her a flower he bought himself.

I don't think there is anything wrong with treating young girls like ladies. And I don't think there's anything wrong with standing up for your principles, whether you are 14 or 44.

[JRDelirious]

[annoyed personal aside]
Some people need remedial lessons on the meaning of the phrase "just one possible way". As in, it contains the recognition that there are MANY possible ways, and NO judgement on the rightness or wrongness of each.
[/annoyed personal aside]

Other than that, what Holden said, and the first paragraph of what Fang said.

[js_africanus]

Are you sure you're not confusing prudishness with good taste? One can be all for a porno category in the Oscars, clothing that covers essentially nothing, and prostitution as a respected career choice, yet recognize that there is no excuse for dressing like Christina Aguilera.

[msmith537]

Originally posted by askol
Say what? I'm of the belief that this society has entirely too many sexual hangups (not that we need more sex, just less baggage). It pains me to hear a bright poster advise someone not to have a frank discussion about sex with their children. [/B]


I'm pretty sure at 14, he already knows about sex. What he needs advice on is dating.

14 is a tough time. If you like a girl, how the heck do you ask them out? You don't have a car which means Mom has to drive everywhere. You have no money so fancy dates are out. It's tough to find any time alone (my Mom used to come in the room with sandwhiches alll the time."You kids want some sandwiches?" 16 years I have to make my own lunch, all of a sudden there are sandwiches?)

[msmith537]

Almost forgot.. You might want to encourage Ivyboy to seek out other girls. I think that young kids tend to focus on the hottest, high profile girls (and thus least obtainable through sheer competition) and thus overlook girls who may actually like them (I know I had to be hit in the face with a shovel to realize a girl liked me). That may be a result of kids becoming interested in girls sexually but not quite ready to actually have a relationship with them.

[athelas]

>Same place they've always been. Holding the wall up at the
>party, too afraid to approach you. Either that or playing with
>their collection of dead animals.

Bosh. Now anyone who has standards of decency (whether the dancing was indeed of an indecent nature is up to debate, of course) become a target of cultural liberalists branding as dead-animal-collectors? Sheesh!

[Saint Zero]

Originally posted by msmith537
I think once Ivyboy gets past the "pure and chaste angel on a pesdestal" stage of veiwing women and starts seeing them as sex objects, he'll be better off.

Women aren't sex objects. That's the problem the rest of his class has. If the girl he wanted wants to act like that, fine. There are girls around who'll like a guy who can keep his pants up.

[Saint Zero]

Originally posted by gex gex
If everyone took the conservative route, we'd still be back in the 1500s. Thank god there are some teens stupid enough to reject societal norms and carve a new way forward.

Lemme guess... you're a kid? I've got bad news for you if you are.


You'll grow out of it, if you're lucky.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Originally posted by DeaganTheWolf
Gods forbid someone doesn't want to be at a place where all they play is mindless repetitive music. Not all teens love rap. I boycotted most dances because of the idot music, and the freak dancing. I'm not a prude, I'm a metalhead, and frankly that music irritates the hell out of me. I turned out fine.

Me too. I honestly would not want to be 30 years younger than I am if it meant continually being subjected to rap and hip-hop based on the assumption that they're what all kids like. Not to mention the oversize pants I'd be expected to wear in order to be cool.

[mangeorge]

I wouldn't want to be 30 years younger than I am. Period. I had my turn, and it was (is) mostly pretty cool :cool: .
But, I do like some rap. I listen. Pretty good rhyme, most of it.
Freakin'? you got me there, I've only seen it on the tube. My granddaughter (14) say's it's not for everybody, including her group. And the school definately doesn't allow it at sanctioned dances. Not the groin grinding stuff, anyway. But she goes to public school, not an academy.
I wonder at the folks here who have decided what a fine young man Ivyboy is based entirely on the OP. He was pissed-off by something that happened at a dance, so he's an angel?
I mean, give the kid a break. Talk about your pedestal.
BTW; my GD likes group dating.

[Mr2001]

Originally posted by msmith537
Almost forgot.. You might want to encourage Ivyboy to seek out other girls. I think that young kids tend to focus on the hottest, high profile girls (and thus least obtainable through sheer competition) and thus overlook girls who may actually like them (I know I had to be hit in the face with a shovel to realize a girl liked me).
Indeed. When I was in junior high, a nice but plain girl asked me out, but I was more interested in the hotter girls (coincidentally, so were all the other guys) so I turned her down. Result? I missed an opportunity to learn how to interact with girls, and was pretty miserable in that regard until about 4 years later.

[msmith537]

Originally posted by athelas
>Same place they've always been. Holding the wall up at the
>party, too afraid to approach you. Either that or playing with
>their collection of dead animals.

Bosh. Now anyone who has standards of decency (whether the dancing was indeed of an indecent nature is up to debate, of course) become a target of cultural liberalists branding as dead-animal-collectors? Sheesh!


Shyness and awkwardness is not a standard of decency. If you never approach the opposite sex, the decision has been taken away from you. If Ivyboy was really a decent person, he would not be angry that his "girl" was getting her freak on. he would simply refocus his affections to someone who had his own value system.

Now, if it was his actual girlfriend who was doing the humpty bumpty dance, then he would be justified in his anger.



When a person goes to a venue, they have the option of participating or not. A school dance can't accomadate every musical taste so it generally focuses on DANCE music.

It's like when we used to have fraternity parties in college. Some guys would always request Nirvana or Green Day or Metallica so they could 'mosh' to it. Sorry, but chicks don't dig a bunch of guys smashing into each other. If a tape loop of ABBA, "I Will Survive", and various dance tracks keep the ladies coming back for more, that's what gets played. If you don't like it well, your sausage won't be missed.


mangeorge

BTW; my GD likes group dating.


Yeah I saw something about that on 60 Minutes :D

Seriously though, I don't call that 'dating'. That's a mixed group of people hanging out. If they are older, it's a mixed group of people hanging out, hoping that after a few drinks, they will 'couple off' and hook up.

[gex gex]

originally posted by Saint Zero
Lemme guess... you're a kid? I've got bad news for you if you are.


You'll grow out of it, if you're lucky.
Oh, my, so condescending :roll eyes:. Not that is it's relevant, but I'm 20. I can recognise, though, that older generations have always been disgusted at the loose morals of younger generations and that the younger generation will usually triumph. Have you seen bathing suits from the beginning of last century? Society moves forward by younger genrations reshaping it. If every kid in the '50s was like Ivyboy, we'd still be sitting around shocked at the way Elvis moves his hips. I'm not sure what age you are, but I'm going to assume that you think your moral standards are superior to everyone else's simply because you're self-righteous, not because of your birth date.

[gex gex]

originally posted by me
Oh, my, so condescending :roll eyes:
If you want to be condescending about my inability to use similies correctly, that's perfectly fine.