Batman vs Superman

[Cactus Jack]

Who's better? They are both types, archetypes, even. Which do you prefer?
I'd say Batman, because we can relate to him. Anyone, if they worked hard enough, had enough motivation, enough money, enough time, could become Batman. Plus, he's not preachy like Supes. He's resourceful and even a bit vicious.
Superman, on the other hand, is very hard to get into. Call me xenophobic, but he IS an alien. Okay, he's thoroughly American, but he's got all this power -- he can fly, he's strong, he's got heat and x-ray vision, and he can turn back time, if need be, and fix things. He is so good and noble and powerful that he makes all other heroes superfluous. And, by extension, he makes the rest of us normal folks look terribly foolish and inadequete.
In the movie "Angus," the kid's grandfather says "Superman isn't brave. Good and decent and kind, but not brave."
I agree.

FWIW:
On the one hand, I would much rather live in the Batcave than the Fortress of Solitude. On the other hand, Superman had better enemies than Batman (haven't read one in a while, we're talking 1960's here, OK?). Batman mostly went after jewel thieves and international crime rings, with an occasional lunge at the Riddler or Catwoman. Superman had Lex Luthor, who I always thought was MUCH more fun than the Joker.

Batman, being mortal, was always in greater physical danger, and so wasn't as much to read about. When Superman got into physical danger, it was always something outre like green Kryptonite, not simply being dropped into a tank full of alligators.

It's a little early in the morning for me to participate in a deep metaphysical discussion here. Sorry. :(


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"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!" - the White Queen

[JoeBlank]

You say we can "relate" to Batman, because he has no super powers and Superman does (although they have been toned down in recent rewrites, no turning back time, etc.). But look at them as characters with a personality, not just as superheroes.

Clark Kent was raised by kind and loving parents, who choose to take the responsibility of raising him because they could not have a child of their own. The world was good to Clark, so he is good to the world.

Bruce Wayne saw his parents murdered for the sake of greed. He grew up bitter, and full of hatred. Eventually, he managed to focus this hatred into good deeds, but the basis for his actions is revenge, and preventing the horror that he endured from happening to others. This is also manifested by his taking in orphans and raising them as his "wards" (the previous Robins, with the exception of the most recent, who I believe has lost his mother but still has his father).

As you say, they are both "archetypes" but I would certainly not envy Batman. As to the question of who is "better", as a fictional character I personally prefer Batman. Tragic characters tend to be more interesting in the long run. But I certainly do not dislike Superman, and the two complent each other well.

[Cactus Jack]

You don't like Catwoman? What's wrong with you? Heck, even heterosexual women think Catwoman is kind of sexy.
Lex Luthor's better than the Joker? The Joker's psychotic. And funny. He's got a gas that kills you and makes your face stretch into a grisly smile. How cool is that?
Lex Luthor wants vengeance on Superman because, when they were both in college (yes, it was "Smalltown University"), Superman accidently fouled up a science experiment of Luthor's, causing him to spill a beaker on his head with some chemical that made all his hair fall out permanantly.
Yes, they have since re-done that origin. But that's how he started out. Pretty lame. The Joker started out as a small-time hood who Batman pushed/accidently-on-purpose knocked into a vat that gave him a permanant smile and clown face. Pretty strong motivation, I think.

[Cactus Jack]

Joe.
I agree with everything you said. No, I don't particularly envy Batman (it's like wishing you were Oedipus), but I don't envy Superman, either.
Imagine confining yourself -- out of some sense of duty, out of social responsibility -- to a planet of total inferiors. Imagine looking down from space, seeing what needs to be done to fix the world's problems, and then having to tell yourself, "No, I can't do that. These plebes have to make their own way. I'm here for emergencies, only." Then watch them screw it up, again and again, and have to clean up the mess, again and again, to no avail.
Sounds a little like hell to me.

[Scylla]

I much prefer Batman. Batman isn't held to the goody-goody moral standards that Superman follows. He has cool toys. I'll bet the Batcave has been known to rock on occasion, but I doubt there's ever been a party in the Fortress of Solitude. Superman is also, not particularly smart, whereas Batman is a genius.

Most importantly, Batman can have sex if he wants to. (though his affection to his "wards" always struck me as slightly suspect.)

If Superman so much as gets a stiffy, the whole world is in danger. This topic was amply and hilariously covered here:
http://www.blueneptune.com/~svw/superman.html

Think of the self-denial.

[Cactus Jack]

Maybe I should have called this post: "Could Batman beat Superman?"
I think he could, given enough time to prepare.

[kunilou]

My experience is also out of the 60s, but I have to go with Superman.

Superman's first memory was being separated from his parents just before his home planet blew up, destroying everyone and everything he knew.

Then he was adopted by a warm, loving family and had a peaceful youth -- except that he always knew he was different and had to keep it a secret.

He was the most powerful person in the world and could do nothing to save his second set of parents, either.

He accidentally maimed a brilliant scientist, who blamed him and swore revenge, and couldn't do anything about that, either.

And the public who idolizes him is more than willing to tear him down if he makes the slightest mistake or can't respond in time.

You think Batman is a tragic figure? At least Bruce Wayne is a wealthy, respected member of his community. Clark Kent is a nobody, living on a reporter's salary, in love with a co-worker who thinks he's a dork.

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I understand all the words, they just don't make sense together like that.

[Arnold Winkelried]

I wouldn't care to be Superman, and even as a kid I would sometimes get irritated by him. I mean, he has superpowers and can pretty much do anything, but he spends time pretending to be a reporter? What for?

He'll fly by and see a car falling off a bridge, so on the way there, he saves those people. How about the 100 people dying in a ferry accident in the Philippines? Are they worthless?

The whole Superman as hero idea comes with too many difficult issues that aren't resolved very clearly. I haven't read Superman in a while, but I do remember seeing one recently where at the end of the story he was helping some starving farmers sow crops. Maybe he should be doing more of that!

[Spoke]

My gosh, people! Of course it would be better to be Superman! The man has x-ray vision for pity's sake! Need I say more??!!??

OK, here's my impression of Superman using his x-ray vision on Lana Lang: :eek:



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--In France I'm considered a genius.

[tracer]

Personally, I prefer Spider Man.

[Squee]

Maybe I should have called this post: "Could Batman beat Superman?"
I think he could, given enough time to prepare.

Ever read Batman:The Dark Knight series? Batman does indeed get to kick Superman around a bit, but only with a bit of help from the Green Arrow....

[The Raven]

Alright! A true great debate! (no, just one I get to comment on)
One of my pals down here told me just yesterday some interesting things about Superman. Apparently he was originally supposed to take over the world in that first comic, but when World War 2's shadow started spreading, the creators decided that he would instead save the world. And I agree totally with the idea that constantly saving the planet would be hellish.
And yes, I think that 'Batman: The Dark Knight Returns' answered the question of whether or not Batman could defeat Superman in a fight. And Batman also has the superior animated series too, IMHO.

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Windows: Just another pane in the glass

[Keeves]

One of the very best lines from the Lois and Clark show:Superman is just what I do. Clark is who I am.

[tracer]

A girl wrote:

At least Superman doesn't whine like Spiderman does.

That's 'cause Superman doesn't have a major newspaper decrying him as a menace to society, to the point where the police actually think he's a crook, like Spiderman does.

[Bucky]

Originally posted by Cactus Jack:

I'd say Batman, because we can relate to him. Anyone, if they worked hard enough, had enough motivation, enough money, enough time, could become Batman.

In the movie "Angus," the kid's grandfather says "Superman isn't brave. Good and decent and kind, but not brave."
I agree.


First, no, we could not become Batman. He's got a genius level IQ,is a world class athlete, and has virtually no fear. He is also almost psychotically driven. It would be nice to think we could, but then the character wouldn't really be Batman.

Superman in "The Final Night" is willing to risk his life to save the earth when he has no powers. Same thing in the end of "Reign of the Supermen" (okay, he has a little of hois power, but he just came back from the dead!). Same in a JLA episode where he has his consciousness switched to another body. So, he is brave. But, I'll admit they did that (losing powers sometimes, reducing them generally) to make his more interesting.

P.S. The original Luthor/hair bit was at Smallville High School--Clark went to Metropolis for college.

Bucky

[A girl]

That's 'cause Superman doesn't have a major newspaper decrying him as a menace to society, to the point where the police actually think he's a crook, like Spiderman does.

Then he should MOVE! Sheesh! :)

A girl

[Ukulele Ike]

Move away from NEW YORK CITY?

Where else is there?

(to be serious for a second, as this is an incredibly serious topic, Spidey NEEDS to be in New York, so he can swing from skyscraper to skyscraper. What would he do in L.A.? Run through the streets? He could swing around the lakefront in Chicago, but if Doctor Octopus committed a crime four blocks west, he'd be stuck running through the streets again.)

[Cactus Jack]

Bucky. Thanks for your good info about Luthor and Supes in high school, although you have to admit "Smalltown University" has a nice, ironic ring to it.
As for any of us being Batman, well, I wasn't trying to imply that anyone could dress up like a bat and do everything he does, in the exact same way he does.
What I was trying to say is that anyone could push themself to become a great crimefighter and super-athlete IF they had the motivation. No, they probably wouldn't end up as cool as Batman, but you could become something very like him. But you'd have to develop your own gimmick. Batman'd get pissed and come after you if you went around calling yourself "Batman." As a scientist and inventor with a host of hired lawyers, he knows all about copyright infringement.
The one thing I've always felt about Bruce Wayne and his intelligence is that it has less to do with natural gifts or him being born with a genuis level IQ than it does with hard work and endurance. If he's brilliant, it's because he wants to be, forces himself to be. I admit I don't really have any proof of this. But I think we are meant to take his origin -- in which he was a totally normal, goofy kid until he watched his parents die -- as the ultimate turning point. He snapped, inside, and his insanity took the form of dedication, organization, and relentless hard work rather than the "drooling in the corner" kind of craziness.
I think that's what all of his villians are about, too. They're reflections of him. They're all insane, as equally obsessed with riddles, jokes, cats, coins, and penguins, as Batman is with hard work. (Don't say Batman is obsessed with bats -- the bats are the method, not the madness.)
So Batman's a good guy, but only because his obsession and insanity comes in a more palatable form.
As for Spider-man, yeah, I think Peter Parker is a whiner, too. At least, he used to be -- I dunno what he's like now. Spider-man, the costumed hero, tho, was very cool and not at all like Peter Parker. He was like an alter ego, which was interesting Batman, I think, is just Bruce Wayne in a mask. Superman is Clark Kent in a cape. But Spider-man, in costumes, was totally different from wimpy, put-upon Peter Parker. Spider-man cracked jokes and made fun of the bad guys, enraging them, while he was beating them up. Very cool. And while I prefer Batman, I think Spidey's powers are super-cool and I'd love to have them. They are, at least, internally consistent in a way Superman's are not. There's no real connection between superbreath, x-ray vision, heat vision, and strength and the ability to fly.
But Spidey's are all spider-related -- he's as agile and fast and strong as a spider of proportianate size, and he can stick to walls just like a spider can. No, he can't spin his own webs, but I'd say if he could, that'd be okay. Although he's better off with web-shooters, since a big spider couldn't sling webs as far and fast and for as long as his web-shooters can.
My final feeling on Spider-man is that, yeah, he's cool. Peter Parker is not cool or interesting at all. And as for "everybody in the city hates me and thinks I'm a criminal," big whoop. Rub some dirt on it.
You think Batman would care if everybody hated him? You think he'd let it bother him? No way.

[danielnsmith]

Here's a question for Spidey fans:

I've watched the cartoons and read some of the comics. Many times, Spiderman is on top of the tallest building around, yet he swings off of it. How does Spidey get his web to stick to the air? That'd be a neat trick.

As for the Batman/Superman debate, I think Batman is better. His abilities are understandable. Superman get's his powers just because he's under a different color of sun? Get real, even the X-Men have a better explanation!

[A girl]

Hey, the cops of Gotham, with the exception of Gordon, aren't real crazy about Batsy either, but I can't picture him driving the Batmobile home to stately Wayne Manor and crying about it! If Spidey has to stay in NY, so be it. He should learn to command some respect. Bruce doesn't care if the cops hate him. He does what he's going to do and that's that. Strong, serious, and silent is what gets the job done!
No WHINERS!
A girl

[kellibelli]

I beleive you all hav eit backwards. Superman is far more tragic than Batman. Supe can never settle down, have a family...there is no 'real boy' ending for this Pinnochio. Supe is way brighter than he lets on too, and this leads to his unhappines and isoplation - why do you think he had the Fortress of Solitude? He is a truly sad figure...he has already peeked, there is nowhere for him but down.

Batman OTOH, is a 'real man' and the 'right' woman could heal his wounded soul.... for him its the search for inner peace that drives him to be batman, when he finds this peace, even if it should be through death, he will no longer need 'batman'.

As for his genius etc... its all relative. He is rich, therefore he can afford the 'toys' and research and the easy coverof Bruce Wayne. If he had been poor like Spiderman, he could NOT have become Batman. He would have still had the crime fighter drive.... but with no real 'powers' he would have been useless. Sooooo, his money/the death of his parents is what allows him to be Batman. But if his parents hadnt died, he would never have been Batman anyway.

Batman's story is far more satisfying than superman's exploding planet stuff. And Batmans attraction to Catwoman - yowza!! Now that is a great story line.

I really enjoy the Batman Beyond series, it gives us a real brutal look at the man Bruce Wayne becomes, as opposed to the man he could have been had he found the inner peace he needed.

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Sesquipedalophobia --fear of long words

[Ukulele Ike]

Originally posted by danielnsmith:
Many times, Spiderman is on top of the tallest building around, yet he swings off of it.

He'd HAVE to, wouldn't he? He'd shoot a web over at the Chrysler Building, say, from the Empire State Building, then jump off and smoothly swing down in a graceful arc. What's he gonna do if he shoots UP at a building?

Reminds me of the old MAD Magazine lampoon, "Batboy and Rubin." They swing in on the Batrope, then gradually loose momentum until they're just hanging onto a immobile rope.



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Uke

[cleosia]

As for the newspapers painted Spiderman in such a bad light, a PR person could go far in helping to project the right kind of image!

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Bitch by Birth

[Jai Pey]

IMHO, regardless of whether or not I'm entitled to it...

I'd have to say Supe's is the better "superhero" while Batman is the better "vigilante". There's gotta be a big distinction drawn there: Clark/Supes chooses to operate within the law, and to uphold it. Batman, OTOH, does what he has to do to prevent crime, using any means at his disposal, inside and outside the law if necessary. So, while I hate saying it, its apples in oranges in at least one way.

For the record, the villans have drawn me more than the heros... Lex, cool and hairless as he is, is no match for the Joker. Now there's a bad guy.
Incidentally, I thought Jack Nicolson did an awesome job as the Joker.

Regards,
jai pey

[Occam]

In "Angus" the grandfather says Superman isn't brave. If you can't be hurt you never have anything to fear. Since I think being brave is the foundation of being a hero, I have to go with Batman. Besides, he look's like a modern-day Zorro and must get as many chicks.

Pro-Superman people: Don't give me any crap about how Kryptonite makes him vulnerable. You can't compare a rare earth metal as a weakness with a mortal than can be killed with a properly thrown spoon.

[Bucky]

Occam--Superman can be hurt and suffer and die when he has no powers. If he risks himself then, I submit that he is being brave. An earlier post (by me) lists just a few times within recent years he has both lost his powers (even dying once, for Pete's sake) and yet risking himself to do good. If interested, check it out.

One could even argue that since Batman sometimes shows a death wish that he isn't brave--one who hopes to die is unlikely to be afraid of it.

Superman has grown as an interesting character in my eyes precisely because he can be destroyed. Also check "Kingdom Come" for a brave action towards the end--I can't specify without spoiling it, but could tell folks via e-mail.

[tracer]

Bucky wrote:

If I were writing comics, I would explore Superman's loneliness more--he really is the next closest thing to a god, but lives among mortals (Christ imagery abounds throughout).

Hercules imagery also abounds in the Superman comics. (Not the least because both characters are superhumanly strong.)

But then again, Christ imagery abounds in the Hercules story and vice-versa; i.e. both had a god for a father and a mortal woman for a mother, both suffered through trials, both have had several low-budget movies made about them, etc..

[Weirddave]

FWIW, I always liked Bats. I agree with, I think it was Stephen King, who said the strength of the Batman character was the fact that he had no superpowers. Superman could blow Metropolis back into position after Lex Luthor had floated the city away, but Batman had to stop the crime before it happened.
[slight hijack]
My favorite hero has always been Firestorm, tho. ( the original, when he was half a kid and half a scientist.) I loved the duality of the character. He was a kid, who did something stupid to impress a girl,( attempt to sabotage a nuclear power plant) and it resulted in his being fused with the scientist who had also done something stupid( started the reactor to prove his theory ) into a different being: Firestorm. He hadn't planned on being a hero, but he did his best to live up to his powers, while dealing with the awkward issues we all deal with as a teenager. His powers were awsome, too. He could rearange the molecules of anything into anything else.( except organic materials.) That ment if Superman was hunting him, He could turn the air into Kryptonite, and Bingo! Supes would be down.

[/slight hijack]

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Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.

[A girl]

Batman rules.

He's way smarter than Superman and has a nicer @$$. Utility belt full of interesting
-- shall we say, "apparati"? (What girl could say no to that!?? :) ) Bruce also runs all kinds of businesses and charity foundations while saving the city at night! He's great! Not some mamby-pamby reporter who waits for Lois to show up with the story before he scoots over and saves the day. Yawn! At least Superman doesn't whine like Spiderman does. Yuck!

Bruce/Batman is my hero.
http://www.thecats.com/images/batarang.gif

Yes, it's mine, and yes, it's very, very sharp, and yes, it's fun to throw it and slice stuff.

A girl

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

The story od Superman is the story of the American Immigrant.


He comes from far away (very far away)
with nothing. No name or family or home, except his new one.

He come to the heartland of America, the Midwest. He is adopted into a family of farmers; people of the soil who love him as if he were their own , & raise him in their values.

He discovers that he has something unique to give to others. He gives this gift, unselfisly & unstintingly; asking nothing in return, other than the chance to help others in need.

He can never go home again-- but , although he remembers his "old country"--Krypton--he is home.

He wears his costume, not merely to conceal his identity, but to become a symbol of hope to those in need. His Clark Kent glasses could be viewed as a mask, worn for the sake of modesty as much as disguise-- he is humbly living a simple life as Clark Kent. He does not wear his costume to be famous--he is , at heart, a simple man (simple doesn't mean stupid) whose goal is to live in the service of others.As a reporter, he is dedicated to Truth. As Superman, he is dedicated to Justice. As a man is is definitively what Americans wish they were (well, most of us).

On our good days, we occasionaly come close. (I don't ignore or deny the days when we don't even try--but they are outside the scope of this thread.)

Yes , Superman is a hero. And a very ordinary man. Perhaps he is the realization & the symbol that ordinary men can do extraordinary things, if they try.

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You should tell the truth, expose the lies and live in the moment."-Bill Hicks
"You should tell the lies, live the truth and expose yourself." - Bill Clinton

[Cactus Jack]

Borsda. I like what you've said about Supes a great deal. Nicely put. But this part about "He comes from far away with nothing"? I can't buy that. He's got superpowers, doesn't he? Or are we talking on the purely metaphorical level, here? Or does the fact that he doesn't manifest those powers until he reaches America (I guess on Krypton, with its red sun, he'd have been a normal human) play into what you're saying?
On the other hand, I don't see how superbreath functions on the metaphorical level. It seems a real stretch to try to draw a literate correlation between x-ray vision and the immigrant's dream of America. It's just not very poetic.
Strength and the ability to fly? I can see that. Guy reaches America, grows strong, learns to spread his wings and fly.
Nice. Poetic.
The ability to see through lady's clothing? Well, not so much.

[Scylla]

Perfect people piss me off.

The ancient Greeks thought so too, which is why all their best heroes are tragically flawed.

If you are born perfect you are not "great," your just fulfilling your potential. To be great you need to overachieve (impossible for a perfect being like Superman.)

In sports, and in life, the very best of mankind takes their weaknesses and turns them into strengths. That's what greatness is about.

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Who am I? He who dares drink, who knows that to drink is to die, yet dares drink on am I!

[tracer]

Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor wrote:

Yes , Superman is a hero. And a very ordinary man. Perhaps he is the realization & the symbol that ordinary men can do extraordinary things, if they try.

And if they can bench-press an apartment building. And shrug off bullets fired at them by their detractors.

[Bucky]

Cactus Jack, I think I get what you mean about "being" Batman now. He's the character that makes us say, "yeah, if I had that kind of money (and ability) that's what I would do, too." You can't do that with Big Blue.

The DC 1,000,000 story, BTW, has Superman alive in the 853rd Century, finally finding a lasting love. If I were writing comics, I would explore Superman's loneliness more--he really is the next closest thing to a god, but lives among mortals (Christ imagery abounds throughout). How is he happy?

A great variation on supes is The Samaritan character in Kurt Busiek and Alex Ross's "Astro City."

I love comics and superheroes far too much for my own good...

Bucky

[Prosser]

Let's be frank: which "secret identity" would you rather have-millionaire playboy or nerdy newspaper reporter? I put my vote on living in Wayne Manor myself. Add to that your potential love interest. I'd rather have Batman's chances: Kim Bassinger, Michele Phifer, and Nicole Kidman over Lois Lane (whatever the actress was in Superman I, II, and III).

[tracer]

danielnsmith wrote:

I've watched the cartoons and read some of the comics. Many times, Spiderman is on top of the tallest building around, yet he swings off of it. How does Spidey get his web to stick to the air? That'd be a neat trick.

In the old Ralph Bakshe Spiderman cartoons, he shoots his weblines to anchor points that are clearly far above the top of the New York City skyline, and still manages to swing from them.

I figure these cartoons are all taking place during the movie Independence Day, and Spiderman's webs are actually sticking to the underside of the giant flying saucer hovering over Manhattan.

[JoeBlank]

Ukulele Ike says:

"Spidey NEEDS to be in New York, so he can swing from skyscraper to skyscraper. What would he do in L.A.? Run through the streets?

There was a fairly humorous Spidey comic about 10-12 years ago were he had to go after some crook in the suburbs. The cover blurb said something to the effect of "Now Cometh . . . The Commuter" and had Spidey riding on the roof of a bus. The plot was him having to figure out how to get around outside the city. That's about all I remember.

Kelli, you make some great points. (I'm glad you are back). I think Bruce Wayne settling down, either by choice or due to age, has been a subtext of the comics, and more explicitly in Batman Beyond, for a while now. After the second Robin, Tim Drake I believe, was killed by the Joker, Bats stayed away from sidekicks for a while. Now he realizes that he will not live forever, but Gotham needs Batman, in one form or another. He now sees himself as patriarch of the Bat family, so much so that when a new Batgirl appeared recently he made it a point that she would only be allowed to operate in Gotham with his approval, and by his rules.

Now he has Robin, Nightwing (the 1st Robin all grown up), Batgirl, and a few others on his side who can carry on if something happens to him or if he should retire, for whatever reason.

I would say that on a day-to-day basis, Superman has more happiness and a better life than Batman. Clark is now married to Lois, and for whatever reason Superman has always tried to have a normal, human side to his life. Bruce Wayne has no normal life. In fact, he only exists as a mask worn by Batman.

[Guy Incognito]

Bucky:

I second your recommendation about reading "Kingdom Come". Ross and Waid really came up with a brilliant story which compares and contrasts Batman and Superman.

Another source I would recommend which sheds light on the superhero mythos is Alan Moore's "Watchmen". The Rorschach character echoes Batman in a way, although his methods are far more extreme. Check it out--it's one of the most deeply layered comic storylines I've ever seen.

As for me, I don't think I could ever choose between Superman and Batman. Both are compelling, but I think Batman's enemies are more interesting.



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"It's only common sense,
There are no accidents 'round here."

[Bucky]

Guy, I agree, but would go even further.

The Watchmen is simply a great work of fiction, graphic novel, super hero, or otherwise.

Bucky

[mazirian]

Superman is the Al Gore of superheroes.

Silly men in thights...



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For once you must try to face the facts: Mankind is kept alive by bestial acts.

[Guy Incognito]

Bucky,

Interestingly enough, "Watchmen" is being used as one of the required reading texts in one of the Arts & Sciences classes at Indiana University. Don't know which class specifically, but it sounds like a class I would like to attend.

I'm not a fanboy by any stretch, but I have to say that "The Dark Knight" and "Watchmen" would make the very best comic adaptation movies ever. No storyboards or rewrites needed, just put 'em on film as they are. Animation would probably work best, though, and they would probably have to be adapted in a miniseries format.


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"It's only common sense,
There are no accidents 'round here."

[Anti Pro]

Yeah, Batman's villians are more interesting, and there has to be an advantage when your enemies have question marks all over them, are dressed in black leather, or have green hair. You can certainly see them quicker!

Superman can fly !! His x ray vision sees through houses, he could stop a train with one arm tied behind his back, extremely advantageous ! :)

It's always bugged me, though, that people are fooled by Clark. There just has to be some kind of mind control at work here!
------
Judy

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"Muck should replace 'suck'. For 'muck' is yucky, while 'suck' feels very lucky. So, don't stay stuck on suck, switch to MUCK, today."

[Nu Vo Da Da]

Or maybe(if you'll recall the SNL sketch) they're all just humoring him because they like having superman around.

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Profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate mother-fucker.

[Clark K]

Sure, I could dress in black and act all moody and mysterious and everybody would think I'm cool. But just because I wear bright clothing and try to be a good role model for kids, people think I'm a dork.

Hey, if you think I have it easy just because of a few superpowers, you try stopping a living super-computer or keeping the sun from going nova or even stopping a rapist without giving in to the temptation to crush his skull into powder.

Jeez, I've got to get a new PR guy ... (grumble, mutter, grumble)

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Up, up and away!

[Esprix]

Superheroes aside, I have to agree that Batman has better villians - The Joker, The Riddler (my fav), Catwoman, The Penguin, Mr. Freeze... what a rogues gallery! And all emminently rememberable, whereas the first and only one people can remember of Superman's is Lex Luthor. Um, and I guess that General Zod guy. Hmmm...

OK, so I don't read the comics, and Batman had a cheesy TV show and a better movie franchise, but still - his enemies have panache! Surely that counts for something? :D

Esprix

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Ask the Gay Guy! (http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html) (or, if you prefer the Jesusfied version, Asketh the damn Priest Guy! (http://www.askjesus.org/ask.cgi?http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html))

[Spoke]

whereas the first and only one people can remember of Superman's is Lex Luthor. Um, and I guess that General Zod guy.

Hello? Does Brainiac ring a bell?

And I'll say it again. Supes has x-ray vision. He can fly. He can squeeze a lump of coal into a diamond, so he'll never be caught short financially. 'Nuff said. :p

[tracer]

mazirian wrote:

Superman is the Al Gore of superheroes.

You're just sayin' that because Al Gore looks like Christopher Reeve.

(Well, okay, like a more-wooden Christopher Reeve.)

[Lux Fiat]

The Dark Knight Returns, Kingdom Come, Watchmen, and the Astro City series are some of the greatest stories ever set down on paper, with or without pictures, IMHO. Then again, I'm a giant dork, so my bias is clear.

The Dark Knight Returns gives an especially good treatment to the idea of Batman as the pinnacle of human achievement (but at what price?) and Superman as a being so powerful he is akin to a force of nature (no matter his intentions, that much power is frightening to behold). Kingdome Come also deals a lot with the relationship between Batman and Superman both as people and as exemplars of their respective M.O.s.

I'd also suggest, for those who think Superman's a chump, reading A Superman For All Seasons, by Tim Sale and Jeph Loeb. I'd always fallen on the Batman side of the Batman/Superman debate until reading Kingdom Come, and after reading A Superman For All Seasons, I'm not sure that I haven't been converted to the other side. Big Blue is certainly not perfect, as some here believe. Imagine it: by birth, you're almost a god. By upbringing, you're a decent and sympathetic man, with a sense of responsibility to match your power. It's not just that you can help lots of people with your power, you feel obligated. It would be easy to be overwhelmed by your own expectations for yourself. Not to mention lonely in your position.

Superman's just as driven as Batman, in his own way. Hell, Superman's parents were as big a factor in his becoming a hero as Batman's were, though in a different way.

Not that I didn't relish watching Batman kick the crap out of Supes in Dark Knight. I'm a sucker for a good David and Goliath throwdown like anybody else.

------------------
"Are you frightened of snakes?"
"Only when they dress like werewolves."
-Preacher

[Lux Fiat]

Man, I'm a nerd. :)

------------------
"Are you frightened of snakes?"
"Only when they dress like werewolves."
-Preacher

[tracer]

Plus, before Crisis on Infinite Earths, Superman could shrug off hydrogen bomb blasts, throw whole solar systems around the galaxy, and break the light-speed barrier without breaking a sweat.

[Lux Fiat]

He could? That's nutty. No wonder they felt the need to reboot the whole universe.

I'm a child of Marvel, myself, so I'm not as well acquainted with DC stuff prior to the past few years (speaking of which, Claremont's back on the X-Men! Claremont's back on the X-men!).

Ahem. Sorry.

------------------
"Are you frightened of snakes?"
"Only when they dress like werewolves."
-Preacher

[dpr]

Comparing two of my favourite characters? *sigh* If we must....

Who would I prefer? Well that's easy from my perspective. Superman. Why? Because of what he embodies rather than what he is.

He represents all that's good, decent and honest. A spirit that never gives up whatever the odds, and someone who does what's right regardless of the cost. The ultimate idealist (with cool powers to boot). You could even go so far as to say the triumph of good over evil without sulliment.

Other descriptions: faith in humanity/the belief in our potential (positive), the love for your fellow man, the desire to make things better/right.

That's not meant to denigrate Bruce, but his character is driven more by circumstances and is willing to cross certain boundaries (differing with each incarnation of course) to achieve ends. Sometimes the means did justify his ends. Fascinating and you still cheer because of the triumph (and often the cunning method) but it's hardly an ideal to hold up is it?

But such comparison is unfair and reliant on context on personal opinion. I love both - they're perfect foils. The Super Odd Couple.

Long live our dreams.


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The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams.

[Homer]

Required reading for all you folks! (Warning: HUGE Superman bias. Hell, I'm wearing a Supes shirt right now. I plan on getting a Supes tattoo this summer)

Death Of Superman: TPB
Batman: Year One
Kingdom Come
Elseworlds: Speeding Bullets
Elseworlds: Superman/Superboy crossover, circa 96
JLA 7 or 8, I think. With Spectre guiding the JLA about how to deal with an alien invasion. MUCHO bravery by Superman.

I could list 100 others.

Superman is the bravest person I can imagine.

No, he's not real. But who cares. When a person is this pure, why not strive to live as he does, even if he never was. Even if he is a myth, a fake, immaterial. What does this matter? If he inspires a single person to be better than they are, he is worth it. Superman is my Hero. He always will be.

How can you tear a man down who is as noble as he? If any single person debasing him were in trouble, Superman would lay down his life, thoughtlessly, to save you. Yeah, he's not real. Who gives a fuck.

--Tim

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You can't accidently create a handicapped baby whilst smoking pot. - Coldfire

[NickDanger]

Two words: bat pole

[BRIAN BROVOLD]

If I remember correctly superman was working for the us gov. in the episode that had him and the dark knight square off. Both have respect for one another but with different views about how to go about doing the same job. (apples and oranges).

anyway there are international heroes. I believe there was red star in the old/new JLA.
In the new series on WB superman is much less campy then before and he seems to embody the american way even with it's pitfalls.

Batman on the other hand is a horse of a different color. Gotham is much more dark then let's say metropolis therfore the charecters are darker/lighter per towns.
I am quite sure that if superman had to deal with the dank of gotham everyday he to would get alittle mean spirited at times.

also batman has a foster family ROBIN(S),BATGIRL,NIGHTWING,ALFRED, AND EVEN COMM. GORDON./Without a support system like that Batman most surely would have a hard time seeing right from wrong given the enviroment.

[foolsguinea]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
Another source I would recommend which sheds light on the superhero mythos is Alan Moore's "Watchmen". The Rorschach character echoes Batman in a way, although his methods are far more extreme.

As a Ditkoista, I feel compelled to point out that Rorschach was origninally meant as a variation on the Charlton Comics/Steve Ditko character The Question. I think Alan Moore (writer of Watchmen) wanted him to be a sort of freaky dark brother to the Question and Ditko's objectivist vigilante Mr. A. This, combined with Alan Moore's rather dark, cynical themes in Watchmen, understandably made him a bit different from ol' Bats.

OK, now for my opinions on Supes & Bats.
1) I like Clark Kent's motivation better. Bruce Wayne wars on crime because of what crime did to him; Clark does what he does because he can, & because he's a decent guy.
But then, growing up, I loved Spider-Man: the hero who does what he does because he has to do it; he learned the hard way that things would be a lot worse if he didn't. "With great power comes great responsibility."

2a) Batman's had some decent sparring partners, but his "rogue's gallery"--his most recognizable villains--are jokes. Or Bats himself is. Ever notice that they never send the Joker, etc., to prison? They send 'em to that worthless incompetent insane asylum! Which is gross incompetence, of course, in the Joker's case, as he's not actually insane, but manipulating the system. (Hey, that's my interpretation--you can read Grant Morrison's Arkham Asylum for a still-somewhat-current portrayal of how DC's writers envision the madhouse.)
If it were the real world, the incompetence would upset me. As a comic book, it offends me that it seems to say that really nasty criminals must be mentally ill; I think that's a stupid delusion. And while some of the villains are provocative characters (Two-Face, the Ventriloquist) the Riddler is about as convincing a character as a Mad magazine parody.
2b) So does Superman have great recurring villains? Not really. Supes deals with the weird alien stuff, dangerous but pretty "normal" criminals, and so forth. The criminal as recurring villain is a stupid enough comic-book convention normally; against Superman, it's in danger of being absurd.
But Luthor can be interesting. The hoary old Superboy story about Luthor losing his hair in an accident and blaming Superboy--excuse me--has squat to do with either Luthor's origins as a character or the current version. So let's leave that one behind, OK? But the "real" Lex Luthor--a brilliant but somewhat corrupt man who envies the glory that Superman gets--is a pretty interesting character, but ol' Lex has been shafted by lousy writing.

Oh, well. It really depends on the writing, and the editorial position, for me. I like Mike W. Barr's version of Batman. I think the current one is a lunatic and a fool--not even the same guy.

Some of my favorite super-heroes--or rather, treatments of super-hero type characters:
Spider-Man, as written by Ann Nocenti;
Doctor Zero, as written by Dan Chichester & Margaret Clark;
Kitty Pryde (in Excalibur), as written by Chris Claremont;
the Justice League, as written by Keith Giffen with J. M. DeMatteis & Gerard Jones;
and--believe it or not--Batman and the Outsiders, as written by Mike W. Barr.

P.S. Oh yeah, the guy in the Justice League that BRIAN BROVOLD was thinking of was probably Rocket Red--an Iron Man riff, funded by the gov't of the USSR. (Although DC does have a "Red Star" charcter, too, IIRC.)

Oh, and Homer---Where are you putting the Big Red "S"?

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Yes, I am an egomaniac; why do you ask?
...You didn't ask?
Ah, but I knew you were dying to!
...You weren't?

[Kamino Neko]

Originally posted by foolsguinea:
As a Ditkoista, I feel compelled to point out that Rorschach was origninally meant as a variation on the Charlton Comics/Steve Ditko character The Question.

[GQ/MIPSIMS Moment]
All the Watchmen characters were originally supposed to be Charlston characters. Rorschach/Question and Night Owl/Blue Beetle are the only ones I can actually remember. When DC started bringing the Charlston characters into the DCU, this of course became impossible.
[/GQ/MIPSIMS Moment]




------------------
Eschew Obfuscation

[BRIAN BROVOLD]

Ah yes now I remember, it was rocket red. I personally loved batman and the outsiders. I also enjoyed that era of JLA. Does anyone remember a guy named BOOSTER GOLD?

What happened to the new teen titans? kid flash? And have ant other robins joined the titans since nightwing?

[foolsguinea]

Okay, here goes:

The Teen Titans have been reorganized a few times. The current group is simply called the Titans, and is built around the members of the "old" Teen Titans:
Dick Grayson, the original Robin, now Nightwing;
Donna Troy, the original Wonder Girl--I think she may be using the name Troia still;
Roy "Speedy" Harper, now Arsenal;
Wally West, formerly Kid Flash, now simply the Flash--he took the name after his mentor, the previous Flash, died;
and Garth "Aqualad" Curry, now called Tempest.
The other members include Dick's ex-fiancée Kory--aka Starfire--and lady speedster Jesse Quick. The book is written by Dick's sister, Devin Grayson. ;)

The second Robin (killed by the Joker) was Jason Todd.
Tim Drake is the current Robin. He and the current Wonder Girl are part of a Teen-Titans-riff team called Young Justice.
The Young Justice comic is written by Peter David, who is also responsible for the current version--a very freaky revision, in fact--of Supergirl. He plays with some strange ideas about God and angels in that one.

As for Watchmen, of course Dr. Manhattan was a Captain Atom riff, and there was a pretty recognizable riff on Peacemaker, too. But I wasn't trying to get into that.


Seriously, though, I am pretty geekified when it comes to superheroes. I realized after my last post that I was arguing about differences of personality between Superman & Batman, instead of dealing with the real conceptual difference between an idealized "Mr. Perfect" crimefighter without any obviously fantastical abilities, and an idealized "Mr. Perfect" crimefighter with obviously fantastical abilities.
Hmmm... I prefer Spider-Man. Admittedly a fantastic character, both superhuman, & an unusually skilled engineer & chemist, but mostly a regular joe in character.
But I still like that Superman's motivation is simply that his father taught him that he should use his powers to help mankind. Beautifully simple.

--------------------
Tony Kanal, you IDIOT!!!

[tracer]

Aqualad's real name is Garth Curry?

Does that mean he's related to Arthur Curry, which is Aquaman's real name?

(And what kinds of superpowers does Aqualad have, anyway? He can breathe underwater and ride a giant sea-horse. Big whooptie. He can't even communicate telepathically with fish, like Aquaman can!)

[dpr]

Booster Gold? Now there was an interesting character. In fact he was one of my favourites.

Now this may seem odd in light of my previous idealistic bent, but Booster Gold was a breath of fresh air. Here was a well-developed and quite realistic character whose pursuits weren't entirely altruistic. Yeah he wanted to be a hero but he pursued an image (and accompanying lifestyle) with relish as well. And wasn't averse to making money either (not all that hard when you're from the future). This realistic 'human' approach was fascinating as it not only poked fun at how the media can make a superstar out of someone despite their intentions, but also showed Michael (Booster) develop as a person and eventually a hero.

He was a nice counter to the idealistic heroes such as Clark.

[The Asbestos Mango]

I've never been a comic book fan, although I'm not one to pass up a good graphic novel if it comes my way. I own, and periodically re-read "The Dark Knight Returns." There is something so satisfying about watching a mere mortal Batman, armored to the teeth, opening up a can of whupass on (an admittedly Kryptonite-weakened, compliments of the Green Arrow) the Reaganoid, government co-opted and controlled Superman.

"The Watchmen."

Hmm. Read it once when I was nineteen or so, more than a decade ago. Don't remember a lot about it, except for the poignant tale of Dr. Manhattan removing himself from human society after discovering that he has become a carcinogen.

Damn. Hope I can find a copy of it. Is it still in print?



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Seven out, line away, pay the don'ts and last come.

[Cactus Jack]

Foolsgunea.
The Joker isn't insane? You have GOT to be kidding.
Ever read the aforementioned Alan Moore's "The Killing Joke"? Its Joker's redone origin story, in which we discover that he was once a mousy, failed stand-up comedian with a pregnant wife. Broke, he enlists with some mob bruisers to rob a chemical factory. He finds out just beforehand that his wife died because she was standing in a puddle of milk and got shocked by the coffeemaker. The bruisers force him to go through with the robbery anyway, put him in a stupid red helmet, Batman shows up and pushes/accidently knocks the would-be comedian in a vat of... something, which makes his hair green, his skin white, and his lips bright red.
Not insane? He looks in his reflection, see what's become of him, and then LAUGHS. And keeps laughing. There's a panel -- and I'm remembering this, I don't have it in my lap, but such was the skill of the thing that I remember it very well -- where he's looking right at you, his hands in his hair, and he's laughing, and his eyes... well, there's just no doubt the man's lost it.
He embarks on a killing spree. He wears purple suits. He tries to drive people as crazy as he is, including commissioner Gordon.
In Arkham Asylum, which you mentioned, he seems pretty damn crazy to me.
I think you're mistaking his intelligence/cunning for sanity. Insanity doesn't require that you be stupid. Some of the smartest people in the world were/are nuttier than a fruitcake.

[Cactus Jack]

Or we can argue about the definition of insanity, legal or otherwise. I'd almost agree that the Joker should not be categorizied as legally insane because he knows what he's doing is wrong. He just thinks it's funny.
He's not motivated by the desire for money, or even revenge, particularly. He just wants to make everyone as miserable as he is, and prove that they'd snap, too.
That's a pretty crazy motive for crime/murder, wouldn't you say?

[JoeBlank]

dpr, to add to the "interesting" Booster Gold, wasn't his origin that he is from the future and stole some gadgets from a (Legion of Superheroes?) museum, then went back in time to be a superhero?

[tracer]

Cactus Jack wrote:

I'd almost agree that the Joker should not be categorizied as legally insane because he knows what he's doing is wrong.

He knows what he's doing is illegal. That's not the same thing as believing it's "wrong".

[foolsguinea]

AARGH.

I don't know what Garth's last name is. I did a fast net search for it because I was listing the other Titans' full names and I didn't know his. I saw "Garth Curry" so I put it in--even though it sounded wrong to me. I didn't catch that it was Curry, like Arthur Curry; it just sounded really odd.

AS FOR THE JOKER NOT BEING INSANE:
1. I said it was my interpretation. I think it's a legitimate one.
2. In Grant Morrison's Arkham Asylum, the Joker is described as "super-sane." That is--if we accept that diagnosis, which Batman just sort of boggled at--his way of seeing the world is more sane than society's. In the decade since, I've found the Batman less than mentally well. And the Joker has had no rhyme or reason to his actions, not even a schizophrenic one. I think the Joker's playing the system.
3. I certainly don't look to Alan Moore for definitive Batman. In fact, later Batman writers have had to work around his mistakes, and the franchise is still suffering from the thematic missteps taken in The Killing Joke.
In fact, reconciling ongoing Batman continuity to The Killing Joke pretty much has required that Batman be a useless twit who doesn't seriously try to stop his most mortal foe, and will never act in defense of his friends. That is, Batman is written as having a defective conscience--because The Killing Joke is seen as a definitive classic.

If you want, we can start a "Killing Joke" thread, in which I insult DC's current (last dozen years) treatment of Batman in every post. But I'd just as soon drop it.
[list]
The Ventriloquist? Wonderfully, terrifyingly creepy.
Two-Face? By turns sympathetic and sheerly hateful.
Ra's al Ghul? I seriously hope the current movie franchise doesn't try to use this character, as they would only mess it up.
The Joker? Done to death, then kept around like a bad habit five times as long as that. The only Joker story I want to see is one where he's killed off--always and forever,in every corner of Hypertime, and all Elseworlds. In fact, DC should sell the rights to the character to the first poser rock band that asks, so they can never use that idiotic character again. The rock band couldn't help but do better with the trademark.

am i making myself clear???

[dpr]

Originally posted by JoeBlank:
dpr, to add to the "interesting" Booster Gold, wasn't his origin that he is from the future and stole some gadgets from a (Legion of Superheroes?) museum, then went back in time to be a superhero?

Yep - right on the money. He started as a thief which just gave him extra levels. AFter all he resorted to crime for a fresh start and tried to be a hero after that. A hero getting rich at the same time of course....

[SPOOFE]

I think y'all have the wrong idea about Batman and Bruce Wayne. Batman's the real part, while Bruce is merely the alter-ego. At least, that's how it is in Batman's eyes.

I've always found this debate interesting, because these are my two favorite DC characters.

I think the oddest thing about Superman is how he stands there when people are shooting at him, letting the bullets bounce off his chest, yet when the crooks run out of bullets and throw the gun, he dodges it.

Personally, I like Batman, since he relies on his smarts so much, despite his excellent physical condition and nifty little gadgets. Remember, above all else, he's a detective. Superman, whom I also like quite a lot, has a lot of reliance on his powers, but isn't exactly dumb. And he's humble, too, which can't be said for everyone who can play volleyball with the planet.

------------------
-SPOOFE

[Cactus Jack]

Boy, Foolsgunea. If I'd known you felt THAT strongly about the whole Joker being sane thing and Alan Moore, I'd have kept my mouth shut.
Geez.

[tracer]

dpr wrote:

[Booster Gold] started as a thief which just gave him extra levels.

Ah, but how many hit points will he gain from these extra levels? And how much will they increase his to-hit and saving-throw chances?

[dpr]

Originally posted by tracer:

Ah, but how many hit points will he gain from these extra levels? And how much will they increase his to-hit and saving-throw chances?

Oh god, we start on Superman v Batman, change to espousing the virtues of a thief turned mercenary hero and now bring rpg details in?

Heck why not? Well his Legionaires flight ring (aka magic ring of flight) would add to his mobility and defensive bonuses, his forcefield would really add to his DB and parry, his mini-blasters (pretty lame) would just be a missile attack...

oh god I'm having flashbacks.........

Actually, bringing it back half on-topic, has anyone played any superhero rpgs? I've alwasy wanted to but never done so. But despite Supes being a favourite of mine I think he'd be quite a boring character to play.

"What's that? Bad guys with guns? *ho hum* A giant robot attacking the Daily Planet? *yawn*" GM's nightmare...

[jab1]

Imagine you are a butler to a wealthy single man whom you've been a surrogate father to since his parents were murdered. He's moody, driven, even obsessive.

One night he comes to you and says, "I'm going to dress up like a bat and beat up criminals. And I need your help."

And you say, "Very well, sir. Will that be all?"

And people think Alfred is the normal one. :D

I wish they'd make a Batman-Superman live-action movie. They could call it World's Finest. ;)

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Sig Alert!

[Cactus Jack]

Jab1.
Amazing. I never, not once, stopped to consider that Alfred might be nuttier than Bats or the Joker.
The notion really pleases me, somehow.

[JosephFinn]

Originally posted by Ukulele Ike
Move away from NEW YORK CITY?

Where else is there?

(to be serious for a second, as this is an incredibly serious topic, Spidey NEEDS to be in New York, so he can swing from skyscraper to skyscraper. What would he do in L.A.? Run through the streets? He could swing around the lakefront in Chicago, but if Doctor Octopus committed a crime four blocks west, he'd be stuck running through the streets again.)

There is actually a hilarious issue of Spidey that has him going after someone in the burbs of New York.

Watch Spidey deal with irate houseowners!

Thrill as he swings from...em..nothing to nothing!

The tone of it is beautiful as he has to completely re-think his modus operandi.

[Mustapha]

Aunt May lives out in the 'burbs, too, remember? He routinely turns up there in costume, and I doubt if there are enough tall trees for him to get a good swinging action going.

Someone had it pegged earlier when they said he uses public transport. He grew up there so he'd know the bus system quite well, all he has to do is land quietly on the top of one.

[barton]

The Watchmen is overrated. It has two way-overpowered characters that wreck any real tension in the storyline. But I did enjoy the "I'm not locked in here with you, you're locked in here with ME!" stuff with R, that was fantastic.

Both Superman and Batman are tragic. Superman is forever divided from the human race that he is the savior of - sometimes I wonder why he even bothers, but he's learned that goodness is its own reward, I suppose. Batman has some issues - he's running around dressed like a bat, for one, chrissakes. He is dangerously close to becoming a maddened villain himself.

The Dark Knight Returns was an excellent treatment of both, especially their differing approaches to crimefighting. Batman's constant snide remarks to himself during their tussle are priceless. Also, Bats finally gets over that ridiculous code against killing wrote into him, at least sorta. Though perhaps that was all that seperated him from being evil...?

[tracer]

Mustapha wrote:

Aunt May lives out in the 'burbs, too, remember? He routinely turns up there in costume, and I doubt if there are enough tall trees for him to get a good swinging action going.

Someone had it pegged earlier when they said he uses public transport. He grew up there so he'd know the bus system quite well, all he has to do is land quietly on the top of one.

No no! Didn't you watch the old Ralph Bakshe Spider-Man cartoon series? They regularly showed Spidey swinging from webbing that's anchored off the top of the screen, far above the Manhattan skyline.

Spiderman can swing directly from the sky!!

[SPOOFE]

Tracer, you're a fool. EVERYONE knows that a pair of Spidey-Copters follows him around wherever he goes, repositioning themselves constantly so's to make perfect web-swinging targets!

SHEESH! Get a clue, man!

[Lux Fiat]

Blimps, yo. Blimps.

[Mustapha]

* Beep * "The Blimps cannot come to the phone right now. If you would like to leave a message please a message after the tone."

***

Tracer said:

Didn't you watch the old Ralph Bakshe Spider-Man cartoon series?

No.

Seen many a Ralph Bakshi animation I have but alas, no Spidey. Black Cat must have been something to watch in that one.

They regularly showed Spidey swinging from webbing that's anchored off the top of the screen, far above the Manhattan skyline.

Perhaps Marvel's Manhattan is sealed inside some giant force bubble created by Dr Doom or Kang or another one of those bastards?

***

On Bruce Wayne

Regardless of how much of Batman/Bruce Wayne fills up that guy's head, one should never count Bruce out of the equation. His business connections and experience have been invaluable to the Bat on numerous occasions. Without Bruce Wayne, there is no Batman, literally, metaphorically, and fiscally.

Aspects of BW still control Batman. Check out the current JLA storyline. Ra's al Ghul has the Waynes' remains stolen, Batman drops everything to find his parents' relics.

On the Joker's In/Sanity

Not to dispute prior arguments about the character's overuse, but I had to post this excerpt from an issue of Wizard, Dec 98:

Psychoanalysis of the Joker, by Dr Stuart Fischoff, an LA-based Professor at California State University:

Case History: [as set out in Killing Joke] Horribly disfigured the subject has become convinced lide is one, big meaningless joke, and has killed thousands of people in his murderous career.

Analysis: Since the subject is a cold-blooded, psychotic murderer whose only joy in life appears to be killing and disfiguring Batman's loved ones, he might be beyond help.

"To the degree that the Joker was ever sane and cared about anything," says Fischoff, "he has gone so far off that path that if he had any sanity left he would be so overcome by guilt and torment over his sins, he would probably be suicidal."

Sanity aside, it's doubtful that the Joker could ever be convinced to give up his lifestyle. Mayhem and murder are his entire world. Quite simply, it's what he's good at.

"If the story of the Joker's origin is true, then he was a complete failure in the real world," says Fischoff. "He couldn't hold down a job or even take care of his wife. Therefore, the only part of his life where he has ever enjoyed any success is as a supercriminal. That's why he associates civilized behaviour with failure, and crime with success."

Treatment: "It is extremely unlikely at this point that you could rehabilitate this person through therapy," says Fischoff. Extreme measures such as advanced brainwashing techniques might be the Joker's best hope, says Fischoff. "If there was some way to remind him of those he once did love before he became the Joker, then maybe there would be hope. If they could bring those memories back and see if there is something there he could hook onto besides crime, there could be progress."

***

* Beeeeeeeeep *

[Gaudere]

[Moderator Hat ON]

This is more of an IMHO topic, so I'll kick it over there and let some fresh eyes add their two cents. Besides, where's the debate? Batman would kick Supe's Goody-Two Shoes red-spandex-clad ass!

[Moderator Hat OFF]

[Mustapha]

And who has Lex Luthor's kryptonite ring squirrelled away in the Batcave for just such an occasion?

[Soup]

Batman is defintely the cooler one of the two. There's something very interesting about a guy who's so mad at the world that he decides he's going to fix it with his bare hands (and a few Bat-gadgets). No super-breath, no x-ray vision, no flying.

However, Superman has two of my favorite characters in his "family": Jimmy Olson and Bizarro. Superman's Pal Jimmy Olson has to be one of the goofiest comics of all time. Bizarro's 1960s adventures are being collected in a trade paperback soon, and he's featured in the current Superman story arc.

[jab1]

Originally posted by tracer
Didn't you watch the old Ralph Bakshe Spider-Man cartoon series? They regularly showed Spidey swinging from webbing that's anchored off the top of the screen, far above the Manhattan skyline.

Spiderman can swing directly from the sky!!

I watched that old cartoon ("Spider-Man, Spider-Man, friendly neighborhood Spider-Man! Spins a web, any size! Catches thieves, just like flies! Look out! Here comes the Spider-Man!!!! In the chiiiiiill of night, at the scene of the crime, like a streeeeeak of light, he arrives just in time!!!") and you're right! He just shot his webs up somewhere above the frame and somehow went right down Broadway, roughly ten stories above the street.

Cartoon in an issue of Penthouse: Two cops are looking at a dead Spider-Man, whose body is a crumpled mass with his organs spilling out. One cop says, "Sure was foggy last night."

The now-canceled FOX series was more logical, but it took its subject too seriously, too reverently. I guess they were afraid of ticking off the REALLY fervent fans.