The Return of the King thoughts - SPOILERS

[RogueRacer]

*** THIS THREAD CONTAINS SPOILERS FOR THE RETURN OF THE KING***

These spoilers may be unboxed. You have been warned.

Turn back now. Really.

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Please post your thoughts here along with mine.

I saw the 12:01am showing of the movie. I liked The Fellowship of the Ring better than The Two Towers. This ranks right up there with FotR and may be better. I really enjoyed this movie. Here are some thoughts in no particular order.

- I second guessed the choice for the actress playing Eowyn after seeing The Two Towers. I stand corrected. I liked her much better in RotK. Her battle with the Witch King was well done and had the audience cheering.

- PJ once again took liberties with the story, but for the most part I thought they were all good choices that worked well. Things like the dead army being at Minus Tirith worked ok for me.

- The charge of the Riders of Rohan was outstanding. I wish the theatre would have had the sound up more.

- The seige engines looked great too, although I thought that Minus Tirith took damage too easily.

- I did have a bit of a problem with the time line in the story. They really didn't show the passing of days well. It appeared like the Riders of Rohan travelled to Gondor in under a day after Gandalf had said it was three days journey "as the Nazgul flies."

- Legolas getting all extreme with the oliphaunt worked pretty well for me. Gimli's comic relief was toned down some and seemed to work well.

- Denethor kind of got the shaft in the movie. He's not a very likeable character anyway, but they made no reference to Sauron using the palantir to cloud his mind. He just seemed like a crazed old man that Gandalf knocked around. I'm hoping the extended edition helps with this.

- Speaking of which, there was no mention of Aragorn healing Faramir, Eowyn, and Pippin or Faramir and Eowyn finding each other. Again, I imagine this is material for the EE.

- For a while there I thought that Frodo was going to get past Shelob without being stung. I was even thinking in a Gollum voice, "Peter Jackson, you f*cking hack!" (see last year's MTV awards) Nice recovery on that one PJ. I ended up really liking the Shelob scenes.

What can I say. The negatives are mostly nitpicks. This was a great movie! :)

[RogueRacer]

Speaking of which, there was no mention of Aragorn healing Faramir, Eowyn, and PippinThat should be Merry of course.

[ummm... yeahh...]

3 Words:

Shat... my... pants.



By far the best of the 3 films IMHO. I look forward to shatting my pants again this Saturday when I see it again.

I enjoyed everything about this movie. I found myself despairing (even though I've read the books) right along with the characters. I was sucked in more than any other movie I have ever seen. My only minor, minor gripe is that the wrapping up at the end of the movie dragged. I completely understand the tying up of lose ends but there was about 6 occasions where I felt like PJ was pretending to end the movie. And I see now how wise it was to not include the scouring of the Shire.

[Cheesesteak]

Fantastic movie. I agree on the scouring of the Shire being left out, it would take a good 30min to properly tell the story anyway. I found the ending(s) to be a bit jarring, just when you think the movie is over, whoops! there's another scene!

Gimli's role is much improved over TTT, comic relief, but not insultingly so.

The Shelob scenes were good, though I thought the battle was different in the books, wasn't her death semi-accidental with her falling on Sting? I somewhat prefer the way Gollum falls over the book having him just accidentally step off the edge. I could have done without the 'cliffhanger', a quick little struggle between Gollum and Frodo with Gollum falling over the edge would have done it for me.

[Yookeroo]

Originally posted by ummm... yeahh...
I completely understand the tying up of lose ends but there was about 6 occasions where I felt like PJ was pretending to end the movie. And I see now how wise it was to not include the scouring of the Shire.

Before watching ROTK, losing the Scouring never bothered me much. Whil watching ROTK, I was thinking just how cool it would be to see it. But as long as the ending was, there was just no way it would've worked. Losing it was really the only choice PJ had.

[Anaclaidiabhal]

Quick and dirty thoughts:

Visuals:
Astounding. Best of the three. I loved the way the battle scenes moved elegantly from the bird's-eye-view--allowing you to see the enormity of the battle--to the close-up hand-to-hand fighting. I have never seen battles done more elegantly, and I don't think I will for a very long time (barring any future movies that try to one-up this trilogy in battlefield special effects).

Emotional reaction:
I rarely, if ever, cry at movies. I teared up in this one. Not when character were died, but at the end, when the fellowship rejoined and then broke up for the final time. Friendship has always had a soft place in my heart, and to see the end of it always hurts.

Particuarly awesome scenes:
Minas Tirith, both at the beginning and at the end.

When Denethor sends Faramir out to retake Osgiliath, and Pippin sings for him while he's eating. Most haunting thing I've seen since Mellish got bayoneted in Saving Private Ryan. One of the scenes that'll stay in my mind for a very long time, and even more excellent for not showing the result. Everything that needed to be said was shown in the cause, not the effect. Simply wonderful.

Shelob.

Nitpicks/Gripes:
I wish they had shown Grima killing Sauroman, but this is very, very minor. They did a good enough job explaining how Sauroman is out of the picture.

Most other plot changes didn't bother me; I'm not a person who thinks the novels should have been put verbatim onto celluloid. There's a difference between making a movie and writing a book, and I laud Peter Jackson for the ability to know the difference.

Overall: The best movie I've seen this year and one of the best I've ever seen. It's really the crowning achievement of the series.

[Anaclaidiabhal]

"Not when character were died"

What the hell was I thinking when I wrote that?

"Not when characters were killed," I meant.

I must learn that preview is my friend.

[clairobscur]

I've been unconvinced by the third movie. Well...it's quite good, but it really looked like a loosely sewed patchwork, with the story switching from one plot to another without taking the time to explain with some depth what was going on. For instance : the scene with Pipin and the Palantir was included in the movie. But what was the point, since we haven't been told much about the palantirs and their importance during the three movies? The importance of the Palantir in Saruman's demise wasn't mentionned (it apears only as a communication tool in the first movie). Denethor's palantir isn't mentionned, either, so this character's behavior doesn't seem to make any sense. So, IMO, they should have either explained what this Palantir thing was all about, either just forgotten about them and cut the scene with Pippin which doesn't bring anything important in the storyline.


That was a mere example of a general trend I noticed in this last movie : too much unclearly explained events, and also too much jumping from one plotline to another.


However, there are things which weren't included and that I missed. For instance :

-Saruman facing Gandalf after Helm's Deep. More generally, in the three movies, Saruman has been downplayed, and his importance minored. It never appears as the powerful and wise wizard he was, head of the white council, he appears as a servant of Sauron rather than acting on his own behalf, the reasons of his downfall are never mentionned, and something I really missed and expected to see in this last movie : the power of his voice shaking the will of the Rohirrims and of Gandalf's companions at Isengard. I was really expecting this scene and was dissapointed.

-Arwen's fate. The end of Arwen and Aragorn's lives is one of the most moving part of the book. I know it's only an appendice, but I had read that it would be included in some way in the movie, so, once again, I was dissapointed. More generally, the importance of Arwen's choice, her father's reaction, etc... were downplayed, IMO. Probably because it would have been too sad, and wouldn't have played well for an "happy end". On a related note, downplayed also the departure of the elves from middle earth, which is merely mentionned but doesn't appear nearly as poignant than in the novels.


-Once again : downplayed the slow corruption of Frodo's mind by the ring, and even the pain of bearing it to Mount Doom. Frodo appears only very briefly to be tainted by the ring, and mostly as a result of Golum's deceptions. In particular, I've been very dissapointed by the scene where he claims the ring for himself. It was the scene I was expecting the most during the whole movie, and assuming that it would be a stunning scene. It wasn't. He just said briefly "No, it's mine", puts it on and that's the end of it. I would have prefered much less of this "struggle above the volcano and cliffhanger" thing, and much more stress on Frodo eventually overcome by the power of the ring and claiming it for himself. I must say that for me, it's the most important scene of the whole three books.

-there's essentialy nothing said about what happened in Minas Tirith, except for the battle scenes. In particular, as I already mentionned, Denethor's behavior appears totally weird.

There were a little too much ends in this movie. Yes, I was definitely happy they included the Grey havens (though on the overall, I didn't like the scene), but nevertheless.....



I noticed they included some hints for the book's afficionados about events/things which weren't mentionned in the movie : for instance, Merry and Pippin are significantly taller during the third movie, a flag with the white swan on it appears in the crowd during the crowning and wedding scene, Gandalf is wearing the ring of fire at the Grey Havens scene (And I believe we can assume the fourth elf appearing in this scene is the forgotten Cirdan the shipwright), and I certainly missed plenty other similar hints.


I mosty said they downplayed this or that, but there's one thing I think was overdone : the battle scenes. Too much huge monsters and people and horses flying over al over the place, walls and towers collapsing, etc....But I suppose there *must* be such long, impressive action scenes in the movie to please part of the public.



On the overall I've very mixed feeling about the movie. It seems to me the director wasn't that successful, this time, in choosing what to include and what not to include in the movie. Once again, a kind of patchwork, where I often couldn't understand why he stressed this part rather than this one, why he even mentionned something, why he didn't explain another, or why he changed the plot in such or such way (for instance, Elrond coming himself to Rohan to bring Narsil, and telling to Aragorn that he should follow the path of the deads. The whole thing just didn't make sense to me. Why such a change? What did this add to the storyline, the plot? What was the point?).


To sum up, I wasn't bored, I even was quite pleased, but I found the movie rather confusing. I would said that it has been the less well thought out of the three parts, IMO.


Oh...and I deeply disliked the adaptation of Faramir's character in both TTT and TROTK.

[SPOOFE]

The Shelob scenes were good, though I thought the battle was different in the books, wasn't her death semi-accidental with her falling on Sting?
Well, Shelob didn't die. She just got really, really hurt, and the books mention how unaccustomed she is to pain.

I somewhat prefer the way Gollum falls over the book having him just accidentally step off the edge. I could have done without the 'cliffhanger', a quick little struggle between Gollum and Frodo with Gollum falling over the edge would have done it for me.
I got overtones of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade there ("Frodo... Frodo.... Let it go."). However, I liked it... it showed that, even to the end, even as it was being destroyed, the Ring was still causing Frodo to lust after it.

And how fuckin' cool was Sauron's death? You see the great eye, burning up, spasming around in agony, falling from the tower... and then BOOOOOOM!!!!!

[Tremmie]

-Arwen's fate. The end of Arwen and Aragorn's lives is one of the most moving part of the book. I know it's only an appendice, but I had read that it would be included in some way in the movie, so, once again, I was dissapointed. More generally, the importance of Arwen's choice, her father's reaction, etc... were downplayed, IMO. Probably because it would have been too sad, and wouldn't have played well for an "happy end". On a related note, downplayed also the departure of the elves from middle earth, which is merely mentionned but doesn't appear nearly as poignant than in the novels.


Arwen's fate WAS shown on one of the previous movies (sorry i usually zone out during the Arwen scenes so i can't remember which one) but you can see her mourning over the body of a really old Aragorn and then wandering by herself through the woods of Lorien.

The Shelob scenes were good, though I thought the battle was different in the books, wasn't her death semi-accidental with her falling on Sting?

In the book Sam got under her belly and tried to cut her, so Shelob tried to crush him to death by dropping her weight on him but Sam was holding Sting upright and she ended up impaling herself. I don't know if that counts as an accident though :)

[Sir Prize]

The interaction between Sam, Frodo and Gollum seemed just right. The corrupting of Frodo wasn’t underplayed. Gollum’s game to separate Frodo from Sam was a good addition to the movie. I even thought that Sam's slight hesitation about returning the ring worked.

I always felt that leaving out the battle for the Shire was a good decision. However, I was disappointed that the final scenes imply that it didn’t happen off stage. There is talk about a Hobbit movie, but I think a Scouring of the Shire movie (or TV special) would be a good idea.

I might be the only person who feels this way, but I was disappointed that we didn’t see more of the journey through Mordor.

Considering that the Witch King was the big bad ass of the invading forces, he seemed to get limited screen time. Gandolf and the Witch King both foreshadow a showdown between the two of them but I don't remember any such scene. Did I miss it? At least Eowyn and Merry’s fight against the Witch king was played just right. Was there a little tribute to the Wizard of OZ in the way he melted?

The battle scenes were spectacular and I loved the look of Minias Tirith, especially when we first see it. However, the walls fell like tissue paper when they were hit by flying stones. Walls seem a little more durable when they recreate old siege weapons on PBS.

I know that I saw the Mouth of Sauron in some book about the movie. But I didn’t see him in the movie. Was he cut out?

I was looking to see if Merry and Pippen had become taller than Frodo Sam and other hobbits but it didn’t look that way to me.

I agree that there should have been more explanation of the significance of the Palantir and its effect on people in the movie. It could replace the rather long Smegol scene at the beginning.

[John Mace]

Wow. Fan-freaking-tastic!!
Definitely the best of the 3 movies.
The battle scenes...
Shelob...
The Nazgul...

I didn't have much problem with the gratuitous Arwen "dying" crap, although I did think cutting out the Denethor/palantir connection was a big hole. I'm assuming it'll be in the EE edition. Actually, the Denethor character was much dimished in the movie. Maybe it was necessary, but that's dimension that is really missed.

Great movie. One of the best I've ever seen. Better get the Best Picture Oscar!!

[CyberPundit]

I liked it overall but I must say I was disappointed with the ending.

I haven't read the books and I was expecting at least one of the fellowship: especially Frodo and/or Sam to be killed. After the destruction of the ring that is where it seemed to be going; then Gandalf and the eagles came to the rescue at the last minute. Soon everyone was united to live happily ever after. It seemed to cheapen the idea that this was a struggle against desparate odds. I think a bittersweet ending where the ring was destroyed but also one of the major characters killed would have been far more dramatically satisfying. Of course this isn't PJ's fault since I am assuming he followed the basic ending in the book. Maybe it works in the books but it didn't in the films.

[Lord Ashtar]

I got four words:

Legolas is the shit.

That is all.

[RikWriter]

I frankly don't see how any human being could be disappointed by this movie...it is, without a doubt, one of the best movies ever made.

[jayjay]

Well, in the books it's not so much a happy ending thing. Frodo has been deeply wounded by the ordeal of carrying the Ring, and by his failure to destroy it himself. His spirit was slowly dying, and his body never recovered completely, either. His sailing for the West was as much a desperate attempt to heal him as it was a reward for being a Ringbearer.

Also not consistent with happy endings is the end of the Elves in Middle-Earth. The destruction of the Ring shut down the powers of the lesser rings and their use in maintaining the magic of the few Elven realms. The Elves have a choice to either sail for the West and leave the world, or to dwindle and become no more than legends and folktales.

The end of the Third Age is bittersweet. Sauron is gone, but the Elves will decline and magic slowly fade. This doesn't make for good cinematic endings, however...

[Delly]

Rogue are you a member of ringbearer too? Your post reminded me of on one on there... anyway not important

My thoughts on the movie:

Absolutely Fantastic, Brillaint!

Loved the Beacons, favourite part of the film, just loved the way it was done, I thought it was going to be a huge light or something, but that was just fantastic.

The retreat from Osgiliath and the Nazgul, and then Gandalf saving them.

The Charge of the Rohirrim, when they turned up and all of em shouted, super cool, hairs standing on back of neck type cool.

Shelob freaked me out, my already insane fear of spiders has reached new heights.

The music & imagery of Gandalf at Minas Tirith when he goes there first.... amazing stuff.

Pippins song whilst Denethor is eating & Faramir is charging back to Osgiliath.

Arwens vision and her choice. Very well done. I think her being sick and the life of the Elder leaving her goes back to how Elrond, and his chiildren have the choice to be mortal or immortal. Arwen chosing to become mortal and thus her being sick was, imho, maybe a portrayal of all the good leaving and dying if Sauron does gain power.

The Whole Battle of the Pellenor was beyond expectations, and Legolas killing the Mumak was brilliantly done.

Where was the scene of Eomer finding either Eowyn or Theoden in the movie, I missed that because I had wanted to findout whom it was when he was crying, I guess that too will turn up in the EE.

Cant really remember what else I liked, Il have to go see it again when I get a chance, I remember not liking the lack of romance between Faramir & Eowyn, but maybe it might turn up in the EE.


Had some other stuff thought of but cant for the life of me remember what that was, so Il wrap this up by saying that I think each and every actor on this final film played there parts brilliantly!

Delly

Pssst... to the Book purists, not to anger or argue with your sometimes valid points, the third or fourth screen of the credits says based on the book by JRR Tolkien. ;)

Peter Jackson for Best Director IMHO

[SPOOFE]

although I did think cutting out the Denethor/palantir connection was a big hole.
Jackson left a bit of an implication in there... he had Pippin talk about seeing the "white tree", leaving us to think that one of the seeing stones was in Denethor's (or SOMEONE in Gondor's) possession.

It seemed to cheapen the idea that this was a struggle against desparate odds. I think a bittersweet ending where the ring was destroyed but also one of the major characters killed would have been far more dramatically satisfying.
I found it far more impactful that Frodo technically "survived", but as an empty, tortured shell of his former self. It's far more tragic, I think, that even though he lived, he still could not stay with his friends that cared for him so much.

Death, I think, is an easy and unintelligent way to try to insert a tragic parting in a story. "Hey, Bob, I want a sad ending... what should I do?" "Kill the main character!"

[Mama Tiger]

I know that I saw the Mouth of Sauron in some book about the movie. But I didn’t see him in the movie. Was he cut out?

I suspect that will turn up in the EE. One of the orcs took Frodo's things in the tower above Cirith Ungol to give to the Mouth of Sauron, but then he didn't appear at the Black Gate. So I'm expecting him to show up in the EE.

[CyberPundit]

I think the basic problem is the number of near-deaths experiences the major characters go through throughout the films. Again and again one of the major characters is almost killed and movie turns up the drama but... our hero returns safe and sound !! It has happened so many times that by the time Frodo and Sam are rescued at the end it has lost all impact. Frodo, in particular , has four near-death experiences in the three films. This plot device is way over-used.

[raz]

Just got back from the theater about an hour ago. Wow, it was EXCELLENT! I liked FOTR, TTT was pretty good, but this one was just badass. Some thoughts, in no particular order:

The lighting of the beacons was probably my favorite part. It was just way freaking cool how you'd just see the tips of mountains coming up through the mist, then the top would light on fire.

Legolas is a stud! He totally took charge of that giant elephant thing! I thought it would have been cool if he would have taken the reins and charged it through the orcs but hey, whatever works.

The tower walls crumbled weirdly. I didn't like how all the bricks just tumbled down like they were stacked on top of each other without anything holding them together.

Okay, I KNEW Frodo was going go throw the ring into the fire eventually, but when the big spider stabbed him and wrapped him up, I really thought that he might truly be dead. And I totally knew that Sam had taken the ring. When the orcs came by and took mummy-Frodo away, I thought to myself "Sam took the ring, theres no way he would have left it".

[CyberPundit]

"I found it far more impactful that Frodo technically "survived", but as an empty, tortured shell of his former self."
Like I said I haven't read the books but the film certainly doesn't convey this. He just seems to have an injury.

"Death, I think, is an easy and unintelligent way to try to insert a tragic parting in a story. "Hey, Bob, I want a sad ending... what should I do?" "Kill the main character!""
I disagree. If your main characters are supposed to be fighting against desperate odds it's natural that at least a few of them get killed. Having them survive miraculously again and again and again is what seems artificial.

[Archergal]

I thought ROTK was ok. Like clairobscure, I wasn't convinced by a lot of it. At the beginning, I was really afraid I was not going to like it at ALL.

But then there was the Charge of the Rohirrim. And Dernhelm/Eowyn vs. the head Nazgul. I'll forgive PJ a fair amount for those two scenes.

And the epilogue scenes back in the Shire/at the Grey Havens were good too.

But I didn't like the sequel-itis of Gollum arguing with himself (but this time with HIS REFLECTION!!! GASP!!!), and I though Legolas on the Mumak was just stupid. All I could think of was the thread here that basically said "What will that crazy Legolas do in ROTK?" Well, now we know.

I also hated the Mumakil there on the battlefield, and the Rohirrim charging them.

Now that I've seen all three films, the only movie I really think that was true to the book was FOTR. I don't really think seeing either TTT or ROTK added anything to my Tolkien experience.

Except maybe for the Rohirrim...

[Achernar]

Originally posted by Archergal
But I didn't like the sequel-itis of Gollum arguing with himself (but this time with HIS REFLECTION!!! GASP!!!),I'm not arguing with you, but I don't see how they could have done this any other way. They had to explain his plan with Shelob, or else it just looks like another monster they have to face and not part of his trap.

[Rysdad]

I can't remember the last time people clapped in a movie theater. This time, they applauded four times:

When Legolas took out the oliphaunt

When Merry and Pippin lead the charge (w/Aragorn) at the black gate.

When Aragorn rushed to kiss Arwen,

But the loudest of all was when Aragorn bowed to the hobbits. That touched me.

I haven't enjoyed a movie this much since....I don't know when.
Well done. Well done.

[RikWriter]

Originally posted by Rysdad
I can't remember the last time people clapped in a movie theater. This time, they applauded four times:

When Legolas took out the oliphaunt

When Merry and Pippin lead the charge (w/Aragorn) at the black gate.

When Aragorn rushed to kiss Arwen,

But the loudest of all was when Aragorn bowed to the hobbits. That touched me.

I haven't enjoyed a movie this much since....I don't know when.
Well done. Well done.

In our audience, they applauded for Legolas, for Sam when he showed up with Shelob, when Eowyn took out You-Know-Who and when the eagles arrived initially.

[Moirai]

Dammit, I can't wait to see it. But it's likely to be Xmas day before we do!

Shitshitshit!

[ArrMatey!]

Eowyn's kill got the applause in our audience, too.

Dunno. For some reason this one just didn't resonate with me as much as the others did. I think it's because, oddly, this is the only one I pretty much knew most, if not all, of the story to. Nothing excited me too much about it. There were some really great scenes, and Sam (always my favorite character) had some excellent moments (carrying Frodo, and having that last drink for courage when they're back in the shire) but... I dunno. Liked it. It was good. Just liked the other ones better.

Have to agree, also, with the palantir thing- either explain it or don't have it at all. Seemed 'tacked on' at the level it was at.

[unwashed brain]

I've read the books twice, once when I was young and once 4 or so years ago when I heard the movies were being made. For me, over the last three years the entire experience has been surreal, like watching my imagination projected on screen (actually Tolkein's channeled through me). At the outset I never thought it would end up this good, and after seeing the final installment I can honestly say I've never seen anything like it. Tolkein and Tolkein through Peter jackson have created an amazing twin set of landmark achievements in literature and cinema, in a genre that previously held little credibility. Just as the books are the benchmark for epic fantasy novels, the movies will become the measuring stick for all future epic fantasy/adventure movies. Ladies and gentlemen, the stake is set firmly in the ground.

Bravo to the entire cast and crew!

[Master Wang-Ka]

I have to join up wi' those who didn't like the handling of Denethor and the palantirs.

I was just waitin' to see Grima pitch the thing out of Orthanc. Instead, Pip just FINDS the thing on the ground. Why? The water never got high enough to flood Saruman's private chambers. Maybe he just got fed up with it... or maybe he was tired of screening his calls when Sauron rang?

The TT EE gives us, in one brief scene, an excellent explanation of why Faramir has such a rough relationship with Denethor. For some reason, it was cut. In the ROTK EE, I suspect, we will have an excellent explanation of why Denethor went fruity-gumballs: he was playin' with HIS palantir too much, Sauron was diddling with his mind, and he finally gave up and went nuts when the cave trolls started ringin' his doorbell... as in the book. This would also explain Denethor's complete knowledge of all the bad news (without being told) when Gandalf and Pippin walked in on him.

Instead, we just get this picture of a rather unpleasant old man who isn't wrapped too tight... who goes completely bughouse when things get tough... and suddenly comes to his senses after Gandalf slaps him around and pitches him onto a bonfire (a pretty serious departure from the book). His first act of sanity involves bursting into flames and running screaming off one of the upper ramparts of a very tall building.

WTF?

[unwashed brain]

Having said all that, here's my nitpick review of ROTK, in which I still give it a 10 out of 10.

nits:

- Liv Tyler makes my teeth grind when she tries to act. I think that's it rather than me just not liking the set of Arwen sequences. A more accomplished actress could have added tons more poignancy to the role.

- the movie started out slow (in part due to "see above"). Didn't really like the Smeagol\Deagol scene.

- the CGI seemed a little less seamless then in TTT. The charge of the Rhohirrim, parts of the battle of Pelennor field, the Super-Legolas scene, and the towers falling all seemed a little video-gamish. If I may be so crude as to bring up a WTC reference - collapsing towers produce a crapload of dust.

- I'm not a big fan of the whole Gollum/Smeagol split personality scene in TTT, and was rather immediately disappointed to see another one.

- add me to the list of of people who were disappointed that Minas Tirith looked like it could have come down en masse with another dozen or so catapult strikes.


picks:

- depictation of seige warfare was again top-notch and inventive in some cases.

- CGI: the Fell Beasts looked awesome, the wargs looked more real, Gollum again was incredible, and Shelob was just nasty looking.

- the battle scenes were overwhelming.

- the pacing of the movie was fantastic.

That's all I can think of for now...I'll let you guys fill in the rest.

[Kelsonk]

Am I the only one that felt that there wasn't enough closure with any of the characters? The last scene in which we saw anything of the fellowship of the ring was when they bowed to the hobbits. A quick farewell or maybe a follow up on what they did would have helped.

Also, did anyone who hadn't read the book but seen the movie know where Frodo went at the end? It would have seemed very confusing to me if I hadn't read the books.

[KGS]

Originally posted by Master Wang-Ka
Instead, Pip just FINDS the thing on the ground. Why? The water never got high enough to flood Saruman's private chambers. Maybe he just got fed up with it... or maybe he was tired of screening his calls when Sauron rang?
Well, Treebeard does mention that a piece of his bark is stuck to the Palantir, so presumably Saruman (or Grima) threw it at him during the siege. Not that it's shown, of course.

My favorite part, too, was the lighting of the beacons. Man, that looked awesome! But I wonder...what happens if someone lights the beacon by accident? Is there a separate "all clear" beacon system?

And what's with all the empty space between Osgiliath & Minas Tirith? I'd expect there to be some outbuildings and farms out there...where did Gondor locate its agriculture?

Legolas vs. oliphaunt was boss. Same with Wiki. And when Frodo shoved Gollum off the cliff (the first time) I was sorely tempted to call out, "'Ee's not quite dead yet!" :)

I loved how Sam's dialogue in Mt. Doom was exactly the same as the Elrond/Isildur scene from FOTR, with one significant change: "Just let it go!" instead of "Destroy it!" (Hey! That WAS from the Indiana Jones movie!!) And the audience applauded when Sam & Rosie got married. Sweet.

Can't wait to see it again.

[Violet]

Not much to add. Saw it today on a giant screen with loud sound and really enjoyed it. Some of the posts here cleared up some of my confusion. I never read any of the books. The dead fighters reminded me of Pirates of the Carribbean. Most of the tone of the movie is dark. The audience applauded many times, and of course there were "cat calls" for Legolas. At the end, they were even doing it for the dwarf! :confused: Overall: a brilliant movie, and very much overdue. Now I must read these books.....

[KGS]

Oh, forgot to mention my least favorite change from the book -- NO NAKED FRODO!!! (Sorry, shirtless doesn't count!) Damn PG-13 rating...

[Achernar]

Originally posted by KGS
Well, Treebeard does mention that a piece of his bark is stuck to the Palantir, so presumably Saruman (or Grima) threw it at him during the siege.Wait, is that what he said? I thought he said, "Bless my bark!" I can never understand that darn Ent.

[obfusciatrist]

I was pretty disappointed with this.

I'm not the biggest fan of the books, but thoroughly enjoyed the first two movies. Pretty much everything I liked about those were present here (as you would expect), but the editing was just so sloppy, and there were so many extraneous story pieces. They may have made sense to those well acquainted with the books, but to others it is just kind of weird.

Talking to people after the movie, nobody really had any understanding of what was going on with the boat at the end. It was touched on throughout TTT and ROTK, but it wasn't ever explained well. Meanwhile, other things have to be explained twice (the cursed army gets explained and then experienced. Shelob gets explained and then experienced) taking up even more time.

Also, nobody unfamilliar with the books had any clue what was going on with the crazy king guy. It just seemed totally weird and out of place. That whole subplot could have been cut without harm, I think.

I can't say I didn't enjoy myself most of the time, but I also almost fell asleep a couple of times.

[obfusciatrist]

If he had just tightened it up another 45 minutes (or perhaps left it another 45 longer) I imagine I would have been completely enthralled.

My other complain that I forgot to mention is that timelines seem completely screwed up. When Arragorn and army start fighting at the gate (at the end) is when the Eye stops looking at Frodo. At that point, it appears they are still several hours rough hiking (especially in their condition) from where they need to get. Yet, from the perspective of the fighting army, it appears they cover that ground and destroy the ring within a few minutes.

Similarly, the orc army marches all the way from their starting point (where Frodo, Sam, and Gollum watch them leave) to Gondor in the same time it takes Frodo, Sam, and Gollum to climb the stairs.

Similarly, it is night when Pippin sees Denethor about to do his evil deed. He runs from teh top of the city tot he bottom, night becomes day, he sees some battle, he tells Gandalf, they ride back up to the top. All in the time it takes for Denethor to climb onto the pyre, pour some oil and ask to be lit.

Throughout the movie I was waiting for wormholes to be offered as a magical means of transportation.

I know it happened to an extent in the other movies, but it just kept slapping me in the face with this one.

[Miller]

Ah, man that was great. Just got back, and it was everything I wanted. Loved it. Almost perfect. Almost. ;)

There were some quibbles: no Saruman, for example. And I'd have liked to see Aragorn arriving with the ships handled more like the novel: from the POV of the defenders of Minas Tirith. One of my favorite parts of the book was them seeing the black sails, thinking they're doomed, and then seeing them flying the White Tree of Gondor, and realizing that Aragorn has taken the ships. Still, the Armies of the Dead charging across the harbor rocked.

Similarly, I was a little disappointed that PJ couldn't find a way to pull of Eowyn's surprise reveal. Still, I can't imagine how he could have pulled it off.

I was also surprised that they didn't mention Denethor's palantir, but I'm guessing it'll be in the EE. Also, when he threw himself off of the top of Minas Tirith, my first thought was, "Wonder when he'll be back?" Because in Middle Earth, it is impossible to die by falling from a great height. I guess everyone just bounces. Of course, Denethor was also on fire, so maybe that's what did him in.

The siege was great. The catapults did a lot of damage, but it was a big damn city. When the camera pulled out, you could see how much of Minas Tirith there was to be destroyed. I loved the way the giant stone they fired back didn't bounce when they hit. A lot of CGI tends to look weightless, like there's no real mass there. Those rocks looked heavy.

I've gotta say, PJ did manage to make the eagles showing up at the very end ever so slightly less a transparent plot device than Tolkien did. The moth was a very nice touch.

Fuck. I can't believe they did it. Lord of the Rings. Live action. Three movies in three years. And it was good! Holy shit! I do believe in miracles! I do! I do!

[Tamerlane]

Originally posted by CyberPundit
I think the basic problem is the number of near-deaths experiences the major characters go through throughout the films. Again and again one of the major characters is almost killed and movie turns up the drama but... our hero returns safe and sound !! It has happened so many times that by the time Frodo and Sam are rescued at the end it has lost all impact. Frodo, in particular , has four near-death experiences in the three films. This plot device is way over-used.

A bit of an epic fantasy convention, that, like many others, Tolkien can take a fair bit of credit ( or blame, if you prefer ) for fostering.

If you want a grittier experience, try George R.R. Martin's epic 'Song of Ice and Fire' fantasy series. The fantasy elements are initially much less overt and are more gradually introduced, the bad guys and good guys are a little more complex and less clear-cut and I don't think it is an awful spoiler to say that you never have a clue what's going to happen, because Martin gives absolutely no sense of safety. Anybody can snuff it in his books. Some folks really don't like the fact that beloved and seemingly central characters are so vulnerable, but if you want a more realistic casualty rate, Martin has it in spades. Three ( long ) books so far, with two more pending ( the fourth is well overdue ), all well worth reading. Highly recommended.

As for the movie - eh, what everyone else said, both positive and negative :D. I went in tonight tired and cranky, which limited my enjoyment a bit, but as a series of films it truly is a great achievement and far better than I would have predicted.

- Tamerlane

[gruven]

Originally posted by Tamerlane
A bit of an epic fantasy convention, that, like many others, Tolkien can take a fair bit of credit ( or blame, if you prefer ) for fostering.

If you want a grittier experience, try George R.R. Martin's epic 'Song of Ice and Fire' fantasy series. The fantasy elements are initially much less overt and are more gradually introduced, the bad guys and good guys are a little more complex and less clear-cut and I don't think it is an awful spoiler to say that you never have a clue what's going to happen, because Martin gives absolutely no sense of safety.
- Tamerlane


I second that.
:)

[Mama Tiger]

Wow, I'm surprised at how many folks are less enthusiastic. I guess having the books virtually memorized helped my enjoyment of the experience, though.

I also hated the Mumakil there on the battlefield, and the Rohirrim charging them.

The Mumakil were on the battlefield in the books, too -- I remember after the fact, Sam being disappointed to learn that there had been a great number of Mumakil at the siege of Minas Tirith, but they had all been destroyed. So say what you will about PJ, that again was an accurate detail.

[Knowed Out]

One thing I noticed that they did to actually not make the movie longer...unlike the books, Sam did not put on the Ring to conceal himself. Thus, he does not become a Ringbearer and qualifies to sail to the Undying Lands. It would have added another ending otherwise.

[RikWriter]

Originally posted by Mama Tiger
Wow, I'm surprised at how many folks are less enthusiastic.

One thing I've found from my experiences on the net is that there exists a class of people who try to create for themselves an air of detached intellectualism by being overly critical of things that "the masses" consider great. Not saying that the particular people here are part of that class, but what I AM saying is that no matter how good something is, you will find SOME people who will react to it by saying "Ehh, it was all right. Could have been better."

[lovelyluka]

I may get whaled on for saying such, but I went into all three movies without having a clue what happens in the books. I think I would like to read them someday, but I've never been much for epic fantasy reading; the characters get all jumbled up in my head ("wait, what's the difference between Sauron and Sauroman?") and I don't have enough of an imagination for that sort of thing to really enjoy the books. I think that there are a lot of people like that, but who would be afraid to speak up.

That said... I do thoroughly enjoy the movies and appreciate them as film simply based on Tolkien's ideas (note that they are not called "Tolkien's Lord of the Rings", etc.) Here is what the one of the "average masses" thought of RotK.

First of all, I didn't understand the palantir until reading this thread. I thought its only significance was that something important would happen at Gondor, but I didn't really grasp what that could be. I realized after the movie was over that I had no idea what the hell happened with Pippen and the ball-thingy. I really think that it wouldn't have been too hard to add in a simple, two-minute scene with Denethor playing with his palantir, to explain it for the simple movie-goers who don't plan to invest in the EE.

As Kelsonk mentioned, I had no idea what the ending meant. I waited until after the movie and then finally fessed up, asking why on earth did Frodo have to get on the boat? And where was the boat going? And why should I care? I still don't fully grasp it; I suppose that should be an inventive for me to try to wade through the source material ;)

The whole love-story with Aragorn and Arwen seemed completely underplayed to me. Perhaps in the book it has as minor a role as it does in the film, but I couldn't shake the feeling that there was more there that they weren't telling me. The scenes were vague and disconnected, and seemed wholly insignificant if it weren't for the feeling that "there is more and I don't know it." I also didn't like the treatment of Aragorn's refusal of Eowyn; basically, he said "I don't love you," and she said, "Oh, ok." Not very convincing at all.

I know that these criticisms may be put to rest with the EE and by, oh, say, reading the books. However, I think that the movies as released in theatres should be able to stand on their own. LOTR is a very complicated and intricate work - that much I know - and PJ accomplishes a difficult task by adapting it. Still, it's as though he came so close and then missed the mark by a few millimeters.

I also want to add, however, that I came away from this movie with a greater understanding of the story than I did with FotR and TTT. Why, I don't know. Maybe it was because the book is an easier read, or because I already understood the back-story from the two other movies.

I'd wrap up by citing my favorite scences, but this post is already too long and besides, most of my favorites have been mentioned already!

[Zebra]

Great movie, the best of the three.


Loved

Rohan Charge

The Army of the Dead

The White City


Nitpicks

I thought Pippen singing as the men faced the hopless charge was hack. I've seen this in PC game comercials.

The reunion scene with Frodo in bed and the rest of the fellowship coming in was a cop out and cheesy.

I don't mind leving out the burning of the shire but two things about the end did bug me.

The ship leaving should have looked exactly like the smoke ship that Gandalf blew in FotR.

Sam, or Sam and Merry and Pippen should have sang The Road
Goes Ever On and On as they left the dock and that should be the end.

[jayjay]

Originally posted by lovelyluka
The whole love-story with Aragorn and Arwen seemed completely underplayed to me. Perhaps in the book it has as minor a role as it does in the film, but I couldn't shake the feeling that there was more there that they weren't telling me. The scenes were vague and disconnected, and seemed wholly insignificant if it weren't for the feeling that "there is more and I don't know it."

If anything, Jackson seriously overplayed the Aragorn/Arwen romance. In the books, Arwen makes exactly TWO appearance in the main story, and those are the first scene at Rivendell and the very end when she appears at Minas Tirith to marry Aragorn (the romance is fleshed out much more in one of the Appendices, but barely mentioned in the main narrative). They had to have some kind of romantic thread in a mass-market film, though, not to mention having to justify Liv Tyler's salary, so they expanded her role quite a bit.

[lilbtagna]

I saw it yesterday afternoon and unlike my reaction after leaving TTT, I felt completely satisfied. I can't think of a better way to end the movie trilogy than what PJ managed to accomplish. I'm afraid I don't have much to add to the discussion since my favorite plot points have been brought up already, but I just had to say that I absolultely loved the movie and can't wait to see it again tonight with some other people.

For me, the best parts of the movie were:

Just about every Sam and Frodo moment. I don't know the last time I cried so often in a movie, and I know I've never cried so much because of one character's lines. All the scenes that were straight from the book had my eyes watering before I was even certain what scene was about to be played out.

The Charge of the Rohirrim. Just...gorgeous. 'Nough said.

The White City. Just how I imagined it would look.

Merry and Pippin. I always felt that the Scouring was the chapter that showed the hobbits really growing up, but that was cut. So PJ beefed up their roles in other parts of the story, and it worked perfectly.

Shelob had me cringing like I've never done before. I'm already afraid of spiders, and this thing was so big, scary, and real to me that I could barely contain myself. This was one of the parts that had my heart thumping during the movie.

Eowyn, the Witch King, Theoden, and Merry. I'm sad Theoden's funeral was cut, but this scene is one I can't complain about at all.

Faramir's death charge with Pippin singing also moved me to tears. I really disliked the change in his character in TTT, but this was just perfect.

The scene at the Green Dragon was so cute and touching also. They have definitely changed in their year-long journey.

The scene at the Gray Havens was lovely, but it could have been explained a little better. And having Sam come home, just as he did in the books, was definitely the best way to end these movies.

The only things I didn't have already been mentioned by others. Hopefully Denethor's palantir is in the EE, as is the House of Healing. It all would be sad for Eowyn to watch Aragorn and Arwen together at the end if she was still in love with him. And, of course, the stupid Arwen's fate business, but luckily it's only mentioned once during the movie.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

The greatest moment for me was Shelob's stalking of Frodo after he (and I!) thought he'd escaped.

When I first read the book, I was thirteen, and I finished TTT at about midnight on a school night. "What the FUCK?!" I thought, when Frodo appeared dead at Shelob's sting at the end of the book, and I immediately snatched up ROTK -- only to find that it doesn't return to Frodo and Sam's story for a hundred or so pages. I saw dawn that morning :). Shelob's attack is the single tensest scene for me in the trilogy.

So when Frodo escaped from the webs and got away, I was getting ready to be all mad at Peter Jackson. I mean, it's SUCH a cool and scary scene, and here he was just changing it to make it a near-miss? Ooooh, that Jackson.

And then we see Shelob creeping up on Frodo from behind, in absolute silence, no music, Frodo unaware....

I'm sure I left white handprints on my wife's arm :).

Daniel

[Ludovic]

Cyberpundit wrote:Soon everyone was united to live happily ever after. It seemed to cheapen the idea that this was a struggle against desparate odds. I think a bittersweet ending where the ring was destroyed but also one of the major characters killed would have been far more dramatically satisfying.As others have said, even in the film it is bittersweet, as the age of Elves is over, and more importantly, Frodo still has the Wound.

But in the books, it is even more bittersweet, as it is shown that Sauron is not The One Source of Evil. The hobbits must then contend with Sharkey and his minions. This, aside from being totally cool AND showing that the hobbits have grown from their adventures, also shows the universality of evil and shows that even the Shire is not immune from the influences of the War.

And above all, it shows that even though Sauron was defeated and Saruman deposed, the world is not free from evil, one must be ever-vigilant.

[av8rmike]

Originally posted by lovelyluka
As Kelsonk mentioned, I had no idea what the ending meant. I waited until after the movie and then finally fessed up, asking why on earth did Frodo have to get on the boat? And where was the boat going? And why should I care? I still don't fully grasp it; I suppose that should be an inventive for me to try to wade through the source material There are probably dozens of other threads that can explain in more detail than I will. Basically, the Elves, being immortal, once they tire of their existence in Middle-Earth, get on special ships and sail to the Undying Lands of Valinor, a road that is normally unavailable to mortals. Frodo and Bilbo, as Ring-bearers, have earned a special privilege among the Eldar to journey with them. However, Tolkein is careful to point out they will not gain immortality. Frodo has to go because his time in Middle-Earth is essentially over; the quest has "claimed his life," as Galadriel prophecied. That's a very watered-down explanation, for more insight one really needs to read the books, esp. The Silmarillion.

[Homebrew]

Goes Ever On and On as they left the dock and that should be the end.Absolutely not. The ending "I'm back" is the ONLY way it could have ended.

lovelyluka : Elrond repeatedly speaks of the ships and the Elves leaving Middle Earth. I understand you missed the reference, but it was there.

Similarly, the orc army marches all the way from their starting point (where Frodo, Sam, and Gollum watch them leave) to Gondor in the same time it takes Frodo, Sam, and Gollum to climb the stairs.Actually, you can still see Orcs filing out of Minas Morgul below as they are entering the tunnel. Besides the climb took so long, they actually stop to sleep - that's when Gollum divides Sam and Frodo

[tomyoung]

Count me as one of those die-hard Tolkien fans who, while able to find nits to pick, was truly moved, thrilled, and awed by this movie. This movie was damned good, better than we deserve either as Tolkien fans or as fans of action, fantasy, epic, or event movies of any and all kinds. Thank god for Peter Jackson, I say. And can you imagine what an extra hour of material will do for this already incredible film? I can't wait untill next November for the extended edition.

[soakman]

Originally posted by Left Hand of Dorkness


When I first read the book, I was thirteen, and I finished TTT at about midnight on a school night. "What the FUCK?!" I thought, when Frodo appeared dead at Shelob's sting at the end of the book, and I immediately snatched up ROTK -- only to find that it doesn't return to Frodo and Sam's story for a hundred or so pages. I saw dawn that morning :).

Be glad you weren't reading it when it was first published, LHoD--ROTK wasn't released until two years after TTT!:eek:

[Sonyadora]

I have to say that my reaction to the first half of the movie was decidedly mixed, but the second half (well, maybe not half, but everything after Pellanor) was brilliant. Brief impressions:

The Good:
Theoden and the charge of the Rohirrim: I was ready to start chanting "Death!" myself. I loved Theoden in TTT, and just about everything out of the actor's mouth in this movie made me love him more.

Sam vs. Shelob: Holy crap she was creepy!

Gandalf at the retreat from Osgiliath: Yay for Shadowfax!

Eowyn vs. the Witch King: I only wish they'd kept her original lines.

Arwen's dillema: I approve of any attempt to make her less like pretty wallpaper and more like an actual character.

Oliphants: Cool design.

Pippin's big singing scene: Beautiful and haunting, and I had a lump in my throat when he started crying.

The Eagles: Not only are they awe inspiring, but the attempt to make them less of a massive deus ex machina is refreshing.

Praise them with great praise!: The coronation/wedding was outstanding. I love the look on Elrond's face when he gives Arwen away. It's as if the actor decided that if he was only going to be onscreen for five seconds, it might as well be the most agonized looking five seconds he's ever had onscreen. Bowing to the hobbits, the white flowers....everything was great.

Explaining the origin of Gollum's trademark sound: A nice touch that I don't think was in the book. I also like the way every movie has begun with a flashback to important events. A good choice of place to include Gollum's backstory that I never would have thought of. Although I do wish we knew why Frodo and Gandalf seem to know it in this version.

The Gray Havens: What can I say? I cried.

The Bad:
Arwen's illness: Lame. When the world will be destroyed and the girl lost if he loses anyway, Aragorn doesn't need any more motivation.

Jarring editing: I was starting to get confused for the first half of the movie, and I already knew the story pretty well. Not only that, but there was so much jumping around between plotlines that I just wanted to grab the camera and yell "Stay in one place for awhile damn you!"

Gimli the comedian: I thought his jokes were dumb in the first two movies, but this took the cake. Not only that, but it seemed like if there was any possible moment where a joke from Gimli could ruin the drama of a scene, it was included. ARRGH!

Hi Treebeard, Bye Treebeard!: So much for Saruman the mighty wizard. "oh he's got no power anymore" is a total copout. Would it have killed them to cut out 30 seconds of Oliphant combat to wrap up this plot thread?

Sauron's eye is apparently a giant spotlight: Okay, okay, there was no other way to do this, but I just found myself giggling. At least until Frodo got pinned by it.

Green light shooting from Minas Morgul: Just....why?

Minas Tirith the mighty fortress: It's built into the side of a MOUNTAIN so why does everything start crumbling when a few boulders hit?

Gandalf's old man smackdown: Weird. Disturbing. Out of character.

The Ugly:
Denethor's loud eating: Eeeew.

The Host of the Dead: Just thought the green glowstick warrior look was cheesy.

Overall, I thought that there was a lot of fighting that could have been cut for the sake of character development, but I think this about most movies. The EE may help, because I think that the jarring editing mentioned above may be due to a lot of cutting to get the movie down to an acceptable running time. But the ending captured the poignancy of the book without including the Scouring, which impressed me quite a bit. So the first half gets a B-, and the second half an A+ These movies will be considered landmarks of cinema for some time, and will hopefully encourage more studios to release fantasy movies that are well plotted and acted instead of just special affects showpieces.

[Dangerosa]

I saw it a week ago at a preview and didn't do too much spoiling around here (I hope).

It was a fun 3 1/2 hours and I really enjoyed it. Don't know that its Oscar worthy (but I haven't seen most of its competition).

I thought the Dead rocked!

As did Eowyn (just as I pictured it) and Merry. And Sam. Gollum got old (I agree that having seen the schizo bit once, I didn't need it again - I understood that Gollum was going to betray them and steal the ring).

There were a few times that you could tell Pippin was the body double. That didn't work for me. Most of the other special effects were not noticable to me.

The fights and battles were much better than in TT - mostly because you got to see them this time - they happened in the daytime. This was really the best movie of the three from a stunts/combat point of view.

This one seemed to be the weakest edited. Seemed choppy. Some of the continuity was off (dirtier faces in one shot than the next).

I loved the additional Arwen in Fellowship. The Arwen-Glorfindel was great. Then she turned into the thousand year old petulant teenager. It wasn't a consistant characterization and the character didn't work for me in the last two films where she was so passive. She never worked for me in the books where she shows up at the end and its like "who?" (I re-read the appendix last night, and even that isn't satisfying. Arwen just seems so - well, nothing but beautiful - especially when your alternate choice is Eowyn.)

Didn't have a problem with Denethor's nuttiness not being explained. I didn't remember he had a palantir until one of these threads, I just remembered he went bonkers. Going bonkers when your favorite son is dead and your country is about to be wiped from the face of the earth didn't seem to need any more rationalization.

Gondor bowing to the Hobbits was both moving and cheesy. Reminded me of Mulan (as did the beacons). Whenever I am reminded too strongly of one movie in another, it doesn't work for me as escapism (though I think homage is a great technique for art - just not for entertainment). And yes, the walkers from Jedi were in my head too.

I did miss the Eowyn Faromir romance, because those were always my favorite characters. But I don't think they should have put it in - too much time.

I agree that the timing was awkward. The Frodo story happens at such a slow pace compared to the other plots. And the distances once they got into Mordor seemed so compressed - yet far too long for the events happening in the other storyline with the rest of the Company at the Black Gates. I don't think it could have been done much better, but it was awkward.

[RogueRacer]

Sorry for having two threads going on this topic. I really did look to see if there already was a thread before I started this! Honest!
:smack:

Delly - Rogue are you a member of ringbearer too? Your post reminded me of on one on there... anyway not importantI'm not aware of the "ringbearer" that you mentioned. I guess that would mean no. The thoughts I posted were just my own.
:)

Sonyadora - Green light shooting from Minas Morgul: Just....why?I think this is covered in the other movie thread. This is actually directly from a paragraph in the book. It was a signal. As far as the green effects. Minas Morgul is a creepy place. I thought it looked great.

KGS - And what's with all the empty space between Osgiliath & Minas Tirith?This is a country that has been at war for years. All of the cover approaching Minas Tirith would have long since been cleared. The open fields seem right to me.

Someone mentioned changing the ending to have Sam singing The Road Goes Ever On at the end. The ending with Sam was as it should have been, but it would have been a very good touch to have heard this song somewhere at the end. Maybe Bilbo could have started singing softly in the carriage?

Another place that I think they missed out was with Gandalf riding out to save Faramir from the wraiths. The scene itself was great, but they missed out on the tension of the people watching helplessly from the walls, wondering if anyone would or could save them. Thus Gandalf rides out when all hope is seemingly lost.

Still, I'm going to have to see this movie again this weekend. I was left feeling very satisfied.

[Munch]

Sauron's eye is apparently a giant spotlight: Okay, okay, there was no other way to do this, but I just found myself giggling. At least until Frodo got pinned by it.

Green light shooting from Minas Morgul: Just....why?

Both of these are quite explicit in the book.

As for the questions raised about the Pippin versus the Palantir: Was the scene with Merry and Pippin unclear for someone who hasn't read the books? I'm thinking of when Pippin gets on the horse with Gandalf, Pippin says he's confused as to what's going on, and Merry says, "Pip, Sauron thinks you have the Ring." There was also a lot of discussion with Gandalf, Aragorn, Theoden, Merry and Pippin regarding what Pippin might have revealed.

[vibrotronica]

These movies will be considered landmarks of cinema for some time, and will hopefully encourage more studios to release fantasy movies that are well plotted and acted instead of just special affects showpieces.
I really hope that the success of these movies encourages the American film establishment to take more chances. New Line took an awful risk by making these movies. While the movies did have a built-in audience, there was considerable question as to whether or not they would connect with the larger public, and they certainly weren't formulaic or easily understood. The studio could have gone under if the trilogy had failed financially. That the movies have been such huge successes both artistically and financially will hopefully resonate with someone in the Hollywood community. A B-movie director from New Zealand has just beat Hollywood at its own game. This summer's crop of spectacle movies didn't do so well--especially not compared to Return of the King. Dare we hope that someone with some money in the Hollywood hills will get a clue?

"It never was much of a hope."

[John Mace]

Originally posted by CyberPundit
I liked it overall but I must say I was disappointed with the ending.

I haven't read the books and I was expecting at least one of the fellowship: especially Frodo and/or Sam to be killed.
Boromir dies in the first book/movie. He was a member of the Fellowship. Gandalf (or what he was) also "dies" although he is resurected in a new form. The book make the "new Gandalf" a lot more disconnected from the "old Gandalf" than the movies do.

[vibrotronica]

OK, maybe that wasn't too clear. What I meant was "I hope this encourages the Hollywood types to stop underestimating their audience."

[Malthus]

Originally posted by Miller

Fuck. I can't believe they did it. Lord of the Rings. Live action. Three movies in three years. And it was good! Holy shit! I do believe in miracles! I do! I do!

I second this - my thought exactly on leaving the theatre.

Qubbles, smibbles. Three years ago I would have bet that they would have been done much, much worse.

Everyone who worked on this movie, kudos to you. You far exceeded expectations ... I for one thought the trilogy was unfilmable.

[John Mace]

Also, nobody unfamilliar with the books had any clue what was going on with the crazy king guy. It just seemed totally weird and out of place. That whole subplot could have been cut without harm, I think.
Very valid criticism. You really had to see the extra scenes in the TTT, EE version, to get an idea of what's going on with Denethor (aka, the crazy king). But even then, PJ didn't handle that character will in the movies. In the books, he's a much "bigger" character and the whole issue with his using the palantir makes his part in the story more integral to the plot.

[CyberPundit]

"Boromir dies in the first book/movie. He was a member of the Fellowship."
Yes I know but I was referring to the fellowship who started off alive in the third film. And Boromir is a partially unsympathetic character anyway. About Gandalf I understand there is an important distinction between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White in the books but it's dealt with only cursorily in the films and as you say he is pretty much the same character.

But more than the fact that all eight of them survive it is the repeated use of the near-death device which I found tedious and artificial. Especially considering that the film-makers chose to add a couple more than the book: the Aragorn fake death in TTT and the Arwen near-death in this one.

Having said all this I still think LOTR as a whole is a great film. Up till the final eagle rescue I really liked ROTK a lot as well. And now that I know the ending in advance I probably won't mind it so much next time.

[Sonyadora]

Munch
Both of these are quite explicit in the book.


I'm aware of that, but the green light seemed to have no purpose in the movie (not that it had much of one in the book) and in addition, looked cheesy. Cutting or changing purposeless, silly, or cheesy things from a story when making an adaptation is a good thing.

The spotlight thing, as I said, couldn't really have been done another way, it's just that I find that fact unfortunate, because it took some of the audience out of the story (I wasn't the only one giggling).

But these are just nitpicks. If you want to talk about the movie's problems, I'd say the editing is the massive minus in my book.

[Ludovic]

Sonyadora wrote:
The Bad:
[...snip...]
So much for Saruman the mighty wizard. "oh he's got no power anymore" is a total copout. Would it have killed them to cut out 30 seconds of Oliphant combat to wrap up this plot thread?Yes, it would! Not mentioning what happened to Saruman after the fall of the walls of Isengard is the BEST thing they could have done, ONCE the decision was made not to include the Scouring.

You see, at least now I can tell myself that at least the movies didnt claim the Scouring DIDNT happen, just they didnt show it. Whereas if Saruman had died at Orthanc, that sort of eliminates that.

And plus, if you DO show Saruman not dying at Orthanc, but walking away, then it raises a bigger question in the minds of the audiences than if it is simply ignored.

[NoCoolUserName]

Originally posted by vibrotronica
Dare we hope that someone with some money in the Hollywood hills will get a clue?

"It never was much of a hope." "Almost certain death. Slim chance of victory. What are we waiting for?"

OK, it doesn't quite work here, but it's such a great line that I had to use it somewhere.

[Marley23]

A few quick comments:

*Funny that the shortest book (if you don't count the tons of appendices) produced the longest movie. Makes me wish they'd had time for Saruman. My butt was numb anyway, I liked him a lot and a few minutes wouldn't have mattered.
*Yes, too many endings, by about 5.
*Very cool things: the Dead Army, the look of Minas Tirith, Legolas wasting the oliphaunt (could've been cheesy, but it was just so damn cool), the comic relief being well-placed and well-done.
*Not so cool: so much slow-mo. The movie was 3:20 long, it did NOT need to slow down more. Especially in long doses like the reunion scene. Also, Gandalf bopping Denethor TWICE seemed a bit funny, and Denethor's death was a bit over-the-top. And as I said, I missed Saruman even though they did fine with tying it up.
*The thing I most disliked about the last movie was Gollum's conversation with himself. I thought it was goofy. This time, I thought it worked great. Opening the movie with him worked for me, and this time, he seemed very sinister as opposed to silly when talking to himself. I quite liked the reflection thing.

*Final summary, with all three movies done: I agree with Miller and Malthus. Someone made movies of the Lord of the Rings series, and amazingly, the movies did justice to the material. These were really good cinema, and while everyone has their quibbles and such, overall I don't think any fan could have hoped for much more than we got.

[clairobscur]

Originally posted by Tremmie
Arwen's fate WAS shown on one of the previous movies (sorry i usually zone out during the Arwen scenes so i can't remember which one) but you can see her mourning over the body of a really old Aragorn and then wandering by herself through the woods of Lorien.




Was it in the long version of the movies?? I didn't see this scene, and only watched the short version of the movies...

[clairobscur]

Originally posted by Archergal
[B]I though Legolas on the Mumak was just stupid.

Fully agree. The scene was plain ridiculous, IMO. But so were many scenes where huge monsters were breaking/killing/sendind flying in the air everything around them.


I also hated the Mumakil there on the battlefield, and the Rohirrim charging them.

So did I.



Now that I've seen all three films, the only movie I really think that was true to the book was FOTR.

I do agree again. The director took more and more liberties with the story in the second and (especially) third movies. And while I clearly understood the reasons why such or such change had been made in the first movie (say, Arwen being given much more importance), I just couldn't understand several of the changes made in the third one (like the Elrond/Aragorn scene I already mentionned).


I for the battle/action scenes, I'm highly critical of them. There was way to more emphasis on individual heroic actions, ridiculous jokes (Gimli), and huge-monsters-destroying-everything. While in the books, battles revolved mainly large scale battle, tragic deaths, fear and despair. For instance, the charge of the Rohirrim was great, but the war mammoth brought down single-handely by Legolas and Gimli comment about it counting only as one was plain ludicrous and destroyed the feeling of fate, heroism and tragedy.

[look!ninjas]

Originally posted by clairobscur
I for the battle/action scenes, I'm highly critical of them. There was way to more emphasis on individual heroic actions, ridiculous jokes (Gimli), and huge-monsters-destroying-everything. While in the books, battles revolved mainly large scale battle, tragic deaths, fear and despair.

Again, though, there's a difference between what works in a book and what works in a movie. In a movie, large scale battles tend to come across as "People we don't know doing stuff we don't care about." The people we don't know get pushed into the background to make room for the ones we do know.

I think PJ and company made a huge effort to satisfy the readers of the books. However, they couldn't make the movie just for us, and frankly, I'm glad they didn't. Loads of people who would never have read the books have come to see the movies. Maybe they don't walk away knowing why the palantir was so important, but they pick up on the bigger things, like the idea that the smallest people can make the biggest difference, or that all can be redeemed. And if having Gimli crack wise or having Legolas do some outrageous stunt is the price I have to pay to get so many in the theatres, then I pay it gladly.

[RikWriter]

Originally posted by Archergal
I also hated the Mumakil there on the battlefield, and the Rohirrim charging them.


The audience I saw the film with loved that whole sequence, and I am fairly certain most will. They also cheered Legolas' attack on the Mumak.

[RikWriter]

Originally posted by clairobscur
I for the battle/action scenes, I'm highly critical of them. There was way to more emphasis on individual heroic actions, ridiculous jokes (Gimli), and huge-monsters-destroying-everything. While in the books, battles revolved mainly large scale battle, tragic deaths, fear and despair. For instance, the charge of the Rohirrim was great, but the war mammoth brought down single-handely by Legolas and Gimli comment about it counting only as one was plain ludicrous and destroyed the feeling of fate, heroism and tragedy.

Though of course it didn't for the vast majority of viewers. Jackson handled the battles magnificently and had he treated them as the book had, the movies would have been horribly boring.

[Stonebow]

I loved it. FoTR is still my favorite, but this was much better than the theatrical release of TTT...and i expect great things from the DVD (the houses of healing, mouth of sauron, etc.)

The only thing that I found funny was the treatment of Denethor. Seemed like he was just there to be beaten down by Gandalf- there's no real feel for him as an implacable, dread lord.

Denethor: I rule here! Tremble before me!
Gandalf: Bad Monkey! *thwack*

-stonebow, Tolkien geek

[Hello Again]

I'm almost certain The Fate of Arwen is in the theatrical release. It happens when she's arguing with Elrond... and he gives a big angry speech about what's going to happen to her, you see Aragorn lying state, and Arwen standing veiled at his funeral momument, with dead leaves swirling about... then her walking in an empty forest (it doesn't look like Lorien, actually it looks like Ithilen with the pine trees.).

I re-read ROTK last night and was really happy to find certain transposed lines... "Shadowfax will show them the meaning of haste" Wormtongue's dialog with Eowyn (originally in the book as Eomer trying to understand why Eowyn doesn't want to stay at home, and Gandalf trying to explain it to him.

[Hello Again]

Damit, why did that post. I hit "backspace" not "return."

The Backspace of the King does not strike me as an inspiring movie.

During Pippin's Secret Torch Lighting mission, my friend -- who has never read LOTR but does do a lot of RPG-ing -- said "halflings have a racial bonus for stealth" and I replied "don't forget the elvish cloak. That's gotta be another +2" :) Don't worry we whispered really quietly.

I thought it was awesome... I did notice the timeline problems and was annoyed by the tissue-paper walls of Minas Tirith (in the book is says specifically that the walls were of such strength that they could not be destroyed by any art then known. The orcs lobbed fireballs *behind* the walls.) The only other thing I *really* missed was Merry offering his sword formally to Theoden. Oh, and Merry having to stagger in on his own power after helping slay the Witch King. And if it had been me, I would have played Eowyn with more steely resolve and less "what the hell am I doing?"

I'm sure Houses of Healing will be in the EE -- Eowun & Faramir were standing together, giving each other Significant Looks during the Coronation.

Basically minor quibbles to an awesome movie. I cried when Pippin and Merry were separated. I cried at the end.

[KGS]

Just got back from my second viewing, and wanted to point out that Treebeard did say, "Bless my bark!" instead of what I thought he had said. So I guess the Palantir didn't bop him on the head after all...

[Crowbar of Irony +3]

While, just my two copper piece

The Good

Minas Tirth - You thought you saw it all - Rivendell, Edoras, Lothlorien, Helm's Deep, Isengard (before and after) - but no, they wait till ROTK to drop Minas Tirth on us. Majestic, breath-taking, the White Tower of the Guard is most awesome locale within the movie. The Minas Tirth theme was especially well done too. Inspiring, hopeful, but pogiant.

Gollum - It was half-way through the movie when I realise I have utterly forgotten Gollum as a CG creation. It's very scary.

Dunharrow - Talk about a good spot for a military camp! The Muster of Rohan really paints Theoden as King, and he did a good job to boot.

Pelennor Fields - Enough have been said about this, but I have to agreed - the most awesome battle scene ever! The Mumakil vs. Riders scene is not strictly from the book but the way the Riders handle Mumakil is more or less the same (arrows at the eye/head)

The charge of the Rohorrim was electrifying.

Gandalf - PJ managed to protray Gandalf as counsellor and friend at the same time, something which the original RoTK wasn't so great at. In RoTK, Gandalf is very much stern, business-like and etc. In the movie he is protrayed as anxious and doubtful. The scene of him sitting, all helpless, at the bench leaning against his staff in the sunset is brilliantly moving. It also amplify his role as a counsellor who could not interfere with the free will of anyone.

The Bad

Minas Morgul - Understand that the scene with the lighting flaring from the tower is in the book, but PJ gotten a bit over dramatic The part of Gandalf comforting Pippin, however, is masterstroke. Even the almighty Gandalf is hard-pressed for explanatons at time.

The Path of the Dead - They turned one of the great moment in the book into something deprived of suspense and mystery. Which is suprisingly, considering that PJ is well-known for horror flicks. Having Aragorn coming to the Stone of Erech is, and not revealing the entire deal about the Dead might be much better

The Army of the Dead at Pelennor Field - I have mixed feelings about this. The good - well, the effects are well-done, it produces an adrenaline rush. The bad - it's just too desu ex machina a moment. Consider that most of the time, the battles were deep-rooted in reality even for a fantasy show, then all of a sudden you have the entire battle won by ghostly warriors. It does looks a bit cheesy but, well, it's a reasonable adaption, but could have been done differently.

And having ghosts in broad daylight is just strange.

Denethor - Agreeded, a wasted a character. The Denethor in the book at least have a sort of grim determination to go die dying, which is before Faramir was wounded.

Well, I guess, that's all...

[Eonwe]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SPOOFE
I got overtones of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade there ("Frodo... Frodo.... Let it go."). However, I liked it... it showed that, even to the end, even as it was being destroyed, the Ring was still causing Frodo to lust after it.
[QUOTE]

Haha. I just saw the movie yesterday, and at this point I leaned over to my friend and said (so quietly that no one else could hear, of course) in my best Elsa immitation, "I can almost reach it...".

I loved the movie, and thought it was better in many ways than either of the previous two. But, then again, this contained the fruition of things set in motion in the first two, so it would be pretty sad if it wasn't a more exciting movie.

Though I really enjoyed myself, there were a lot of things I had problems with. I think I need another 24 hours' or so rumination before I enumerate them all.

I will say, as someone else has said here, that I loved the beacon lighting sequence, and I also liked the Rohirim riding down into battle. That, IMO, was the best battle sequence of the series.

[Eonwe]

Originally posted by RikWriter
Though of course it didn't for the vast majority of viewers. Jackson handled the battles magnificently and had he treated them as the book had, the movies would have been horribly boring.

Eh, I don't know. Many a director has done Civil War/WWI/WWII/Vietnam battle sequences that have been very moving and very good at conveying the grand scale of tradgedy and heroism.

[RikWriter]

Originally posted by Eonwe
Eh, I don't know. Many a director has done Civil War/WWI/WWII/Vietnam battle sequences that have been very moving and very good at conveying the grand scale of tradgedy and heroism.

Just as Jackson did with the battles of the LOTR books. Your making an argument against a position that no one has taken, as far as I can tell.

[Eonwe]

Hm, well, I guess my question for you would be, "what way did the books handle the battles that was horribly boring?"

You seemed to be saying that focusing on the battle on a grand scale, and eliminating some of the character-centric bits is the boring way in which the books handled the battles, but I could be misreading you.

[RikWriter]

Originally posted by Eonwe
Hm, well, I guess my question for you would be, "what way did the books handle the battles that was horribly boring?"

You seemed to be saying that focusing on the battle on a grand scale, and eliminating some of the character-centric bits is the boring way in which the books handled the battles, but I could be misreading you.

The argument wasn't MINE to begin with. I was answering someone who said that the movie battles were bad because they focussed on individual exploits rather than doing as (he said) the books did and glossing over the combat to focus on the larger picture of the armies, like some wargame with miniatures. I was commenting that doing such a thing in a movie would have been boring.

[Eonwe]

Hm, well, let me rephrase...

I think that there are movies that do focus on the larger picture successfully. An example I can think of off the top of my head is Branaugh's Henry V. So, my point is that it is not the case that a battle scene is inherently bad because of the fact that it doesn't focus on specific individuals doing specific things. I suppose you could disagree with that, but it'd be like saying, "any movie with elephants in it is boring." It's not the material, but how it's presented.

All IMHO, of course. :)

[Mehitabel]

Well, I think I had an experience unique amongst the Dopers at 10:00 yesterday morning--I saw LOTR in a giant theater, the biggest in the Loews Lincoln Square complex in Manhattan, with a mezzanine and everything, full-sized with surround sound and a giant screen with curtains and all the trappings.

I paid for it the night before with FANFARE, but I might as well have saved my $1.75 service charge because there were about FIFTY PEOPLE in a theater that can hold 2000. So, I had nobody in front of me for two rows, nobody in the row with me, nobody blocking me, no cellphones, only one whiny kid about a quarter of a mile behind me, no interruptions, no chattering, no candy wrappers, plenty of room to stretch out.

But unfortunately, no cheering, no crying, no feedback, *no sharing anything* with the other audience members. Aside from one laugh at Gimli's big line and a smattering of applause for about 15 seconds at the end which is all I heard, it was like a private screening that I was seeing in a very plush vacuum.

So how did I like the movie?

I loved it! I was sniffling to myself and smiling a lot and doing all the things you guys did, only much quieter. I was swept up and swept away and liked the battles, the talk between Pippin and Gandalf before they were "going to die", the Frodo/Sam story, etc.

Nitpicks were: What happened to everybody's horses in the final battle, when they were surrounded? I guess they let them run away, but I was surprised Shadowfax wasn't there. He would never bolt. A quick scene of Denethor staring into his palantir with the eye of Sauron staring back at him could have been subbed for one of the grossout eating scenes, because Denny was just an inexplicable wimp in the movie.

Things I missed the most: any mentions of the fates of Legolas and Gimli, the sailing to the West of Sam after his widowing (although in the movie he'd never been a true Ringbearer, I guess), the deaths and honorable burials of Merry and Pippin, a little more of the married lives of Arwen and Aragorn, the mallorn tree growing in Hobbiton, the fact that the Fellowship kept in touch and visited each other frequently after their victory, the romance of Faramir and Eowyn (no, I don't think their standing near each other at the coronation was enough), the prophecies that supported Aragorn's kingship, and so on.

But I know a few of these will be on the EE, so I can wait. I loved the movie but will wait a little to see it again, and, contrary to what most people here might think, would like to see it in a MORE crowded theater!

[burundi]

Saw RoTK for the second time yesterday. And I have only the tiniest, teensiest of complaints. At the battle of Helm's Deep, all the women and children were hiding someplace safe(r) while the soldiers fought. At Minas Tirith it seems like there were no efforts to get the non-combatants to a safe place. Surely someone must have noticed the hordes of orcs marching towards the city.

[Mehitabel]

There was a quick mention by one of the captains about moving the non-combatants, but it wasn't dwelt on like the w & c of Helm's Deep were. Frankly, I don't know where they could have evacuated them TO--like the Titanic being its own lifeboat, Minas Tirith seems to have been its own shelter, with nobody ever being able to totally overrun it.

I think in the books the non-soldiers fled across the plains before the Orcs came, and it was all soldiers and magickal people facing the Mordorites.