Believing in Santa. Believing in God/Satan.

[ExecutiveJesus]

I see Santa everywhere, on almost every street corner, on the back of trains, in taxis, in department stores. Now that's omnipresence!

And Santa has omniscience. "He knows if you've been sleeping. He knows if you're awake. He knows ..." well, he seems to know everything.

And Santa has omnipotence. He can fly through the sky unseen by radar. He travels down chimneys and through roofs into any and every person's living room. He can leave gifts (Thank you Lord!). He can beat you up or drag you off to hell. (At least he used to in the last century along with this evil sidekick, Black Peter!).

Well, if Santa exists - and there is more objective evidence that HE exists than you or I do! - then the Christian God, who is quite inferior in terms of evidence for his existence, is a snap.

But then again, he COULD be Satan.

1. Santa is an anagram of Satan.

2. Both like to live in extremes of temperature (Santa at the North Pole, Satan in Hell's eternal fire and brimstone).

3. Both know whether you have been naughty or nice

4. If you're bad, Santa gives you a lump of coal, Satan make you sit on burning coal.

5. Satan has his horned minions and helpers, Santa has his reindeer and elves.

6. Both appear dressed in red.

7. Santa is known as Saint Nick, Satan is known as Old Nick.

8. Both exist in ancient legends from many cultures.

9. Santa is real .... so is Satan.

10. Both try to attract young children to them, Santa with presents, Satan with promises of wicked fun.

Now why do some of you Christians literally blow this off, but not the Bible?

[Meatros]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think Satan would be giving out presents to all the good boys and girls.

Seems like to me that if Satan were giving out any gifts at all, they'd be to the bad girls and boys, rewarding them for their behavior in the hopes that others might do the same...

[John Mace]

Originally posted by ExecutiveJesus
But then again, he COULD be Satan.

1. Santa is an anagram of Satan.

7. Santa is known as Saint Nick, Satan is known as Old Nick

This is only true in English. Does Satan speak English as his primary language?

[ExecutiveJesus]

Originally posted by John Mace
This is only true in English. Does Satan speak English as his primary language?

Yes.

[Lord Ashtar]

Originally posted by ExecutiveJesus

Originally posted by John Mace
This is only true in English. Does Satan speak English as his primary language?

Yes.

Cite?

[PatriotX]

These things are only well compared if you ingore most all of what it means to believe in them.

Whatever resemblances there may be that are assessed soley on the quantity of "objective evidence" are not the most crucial differences. If one "objectively" looks at the the beliefs as they exist in situ, (rather than as incomplete abstracts), and attempts to describe them, the major differences are easily noted.

[rjung]

Originally posted by ExecutiveJesus
Well, if Santa exists - and there is more objective evidence that HE exists than you or I do! - then the Christian God, who is quite inferior in terms of evidence for his existence, is a snap.
Got a cite for this? Just because there are a lot of images of Santa doesn't mean there's a lot of evidence for his existence. I mean, there are a lot of images for Darth Vader running around the place too, but nobody believes he's real.

[ExecutiveJesus]

Originally posted by Lord Ashtar
Yes.

Cite? [/B][/QUOTE]

I just wrote it.

Do you have a better site regarding God/Satan's attributes?

[ExecutiveJesus]

Originally posted by rjung
Got a cite for this? Just because there are a lot of images of Santa doesn't mean there's a lot of evidence for his existence. I mean, there are a lot of images for Darth Vader running around the place too, but nobody believes he's real.

Excellent point.

Though, I believe neither are in the least "real", I would submit that they are provable by an equal value of evidence (substance).

That is all my exercise is portraying.

People say God is this and that.

People say God is this and that.

Isn't that all we have to go by?

[Meatros]

Originally posted by ExecutiveJesus
People say God is this and that.

People say God is this and that.

Isn't that all we have to go by?

Yes, but that's the whole concept of faith, isn't it?

[ExecutiveJesus]

Originally posted by Meatros
Yes, but that's the whole concept of faith, isn't it?

Correcto!

Thus;

Why is the proven validity of the christian God attempted here?

I suppose this is where I wanted the discussion to go.

[Meatros]

Originally posted by ExecutiveJesus
Correcto!

Thus;

Why is the proven validity of the christian God attempted here?

I suppose this is where I wanted the discussion to go.

Because a lot of people want something more substantial then just faith. This could have to do with God's showing up all the time in the bible (proving himself to unbelievers and believers alike).

If God showed up then, why not know? Then again some people insist that God does show himself.


So...uh...it goes back to faith. :D

[ExecutiveJesus]

Mods:

Feel free (not that you require justification) to move this thread to a more humorous venue.

I figured I'd make a "in the spirit" thread on a recycled question.

Merry Krishna's and a Hopi Indian New Year!

[PatriotX]

Originally posted by ExecutiveJesus

Isn't that all we have to go by?


No, actually, it isn't.

There're personal experiences that must be included as well.

Despite whatever value(s) one assigns tothese experiences, particularly those of persons other than yourself, they can have incredibly signifigant impact on the decision making process.
People "go by" these all the time.

It almost seems that you're either ignoring the impact of or not valuing the various kinds of "re inforcing experiences" in decision making processes.

[Lord Ashtar]

Originally posted by ExecutiveJesus
I just wrote it.

Do you have a better site regarding God/Satan's attributes?

You state that Satan's primary language is English. I ask for a cite and you give me this? Did you feel like debating or is this a repeat of your Prove I'm Not God Thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=226039)? Or are you now claiming to be Satan?

[ExecutiveJesus]

Originally posted by Meatros
Then again some people insist that God does show himself.

Many children will tell you they have seen Santa.

I know I thought I did one night.

[Lord Ashtar]

Ah, you're joking. Never mind then.

[ExecutiveJesus]

Originally posted by Lord Ashtar
You state that Satan's primary language is English. I ask for a cite and you give me this? Did you feel like debating or is this a repeat of your Prove I'm Not God Thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=226039)? Or are you now claiming to be Satan?

I am merely pointed out the ludicrisness of asking for a site of something that is logically unprovable.

I'm honored you remember me, though.

Merry Krishna's!

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by rjung
I mean, there are a lot of images for Darth Vader running around the place too, but nobody believes he's real. rjung, your friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, rjung, whether they be men’s or children’s, are little. In this great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, rjung, there is a Darth Vader. He exists as certainly as evil and facism and tyranny exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its hardest lessons and pain. Alas! how wonderful would be the world if there were no Darth Vader! It would be as dreary as if there were no rjungs. There would be no childlike faith then, no dark side, no choking to death a flunky with just a balled fist.

Not believe in Darth Vader! You might as well not believe in gremlins. You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the death stars in orbit to catch Darth Vader, but even if you did not see Darth Vader swinging a light sader, what would that prove? The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see gremlins wrecking havoc with machinery? Of course not, but that’s no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You tear apart a the baby’s rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived could tear apart.

Only conceit, darkness, hate, and rage can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernatural anger and evil beyond. Is it all real? Ah, rjung, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No Darth Vader! Thank God! he lives and lives forever. A thousand years from now, rjung, nay 10 times 10,000 years from now (and a galaxy far, far away), he will continue to strike fear into the heart of childhood.

[ExecutiveJesus]

Originally posted by Lord Ashtar
Ah, you're joking. Never mind then.

No no, this is a humorous way to look at a logically sound arguement.

Also, please do not ad hominem this one...

I beg you.

Take it for what it is; and nothing more.

Add substance.

[Meatros]

Originally posted by ExecutiveJesus
Many children will tell you they have seen Santa.

I know I thought I did one night.

Ah yes, but if you disappoint Santa the most you'll get is a lump of coal.

If you disappoint God (the type some Christian's adhere to) you get to spend eternity suffering in a blaze of hellfire.

This, in my mind, would lead a person to look for as much evidence as possible-to make sure the religion they adhere to is the proper one, as opposed to the one they were born into.

[ExecutiveJesus]

There is an ancient ritual which is reputed to stop witches in which you may spill a box of matches or needles and the poor compulsive witch will have to count each and every one before proceeding.

With Old Nick you can attempt the sin of glutteny to bribe and dissuade Him. Leaving cookies and milk in your living room area is reputed to work although I have it from a good source that Jamaican rum and good cigars will work better.

[Musicat]

Originally posted by Meatros
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think Satan would be giving out presents to all the good boys and girls. Sure he would. He wants to be popular, right? He wants to recruit kids to his "side," right?

Satan is behind everything in the world today. You just have to know where to look and how to interpret. :D

[Meatros]

Originally posted by ExecutiveJesus
There is an ancient ritual which is reputed to stop witches in which you may spill a box of matches or needles and the poor compulsive witch will have to count each and every one before proceeding.

I thought that was either vampires or leprachauns (sp?).

[lekatt]

Originally posted by ExecutiveJesus
Excellent point.

Though, I believe neither are in the least "real", I would submit that they are provable by an equal value of evidence (substance).

That is all my exercise is portraying.

People say God is this and that.

People say God is this and that.

Isn't that all we have to go by?

Of course not, God can be experienced.

Millions have experienced the presence of God. It is so awesome that you won't mistake it for anything else.


Love

[lekatt]

Originally posted by Meatros
Ah yes, but if you disappoint Santa the most you'll get is a lump of coal.

If you disappoint God (the type some Christian's adhere to) you get to spend eternity suffering in a blaze of hellfire.

This, in my mind, would lead a person to look for as much evidence as possible-to make sure the religion they adhere to is the proper one, as opposed to the one they were born into.

You will never disappoint God, only yourself.

Love

[lekatt]

Originally posted by ExecutiveJesus
Many children will tell you they have seen Santa.

I know I thought I did one night.

In defense of poor old Santa:

http://www.ndeweb.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=38&post=595#POST595

Love

[Meatros]

Originally posted by lekatt
Of course not, God can be experienced.

Millions have experienced the presence of God. It is so awesome that you won't mistake it for anything else.


Love


No offense Lekatt, but why do people have all sorts of different 'experiences' towards different deities altogether?

[Meatros]

Originally posted by lekatt
You will never disappoint God, only yourself.

Love

What are you saying? God is not disappointed when I go to Hell?

[SkipMagic]

Originally posted by ExecutiveJesus

I just wrote it.

Do you have a better site regarding God/Satan's attributes?
You just wrote what? The list in your OP? That (http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/2568/santa.html) is (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/codthecultofdan/message/431?source=1) doubtful (http://anekdota.dyndns.org/jotd3/0331.html).

[ExecutiveJesus]

Originally posted by SkipMagic
You just wrote what? The list in your OP? That (http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/2568/santa.html) is (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/codthecultofdan/message/431?source=1) doubtful (http://anekdota.dyndns.org/jotd3/0331.html).

Question asked: Does Satan speak English as his primary language?

My Answer: Yes.

Rebuttal: Cite?

My Answer: I wrote it. (pronoun "it" = Yes).

The top ten list is not my own, nor did I claim it to be; I found it to be a fitting ending to my point.

There is no copyright, or cited author.

Please read what I write, in context of disclosure, before responding.

[ExecutiveJesus]

Originally posted by SkipMagic
You just wrote what? The list in your OP? That (http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/2568/santa.html) is (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/codthecultofdan/message/431?source=1) doubtful (http://anekdota.dyndns.org/jotd3/0331.html).

Question asked: Does Satan speak English as his primary language?

My Answer: Yes.

Rebuttal: Cite?

My Answer: I wrote it. (pronoun "it" = Yes).

The top ten list is not my own, nor did I claim it to be; I found it to be a fitting ending to my point.

There is no copyright, or cited author.

Please read what I write, in context of disclosure, before responding.

[SkipMagic]

Originally posted by ExecutiveJesus
Question asked: Does Satan speak English as his primary language?

My Answer: Yes.

Rebuttal: Cite?

My Answer: I wrote it. (pronoun "it" = Yes).

The top ten list is not my own, nor did I claim it to be; I found it to be a fitting ending to my point.

There is no copyright, or cited author.

Please read what I write, in context of disclosure, before responding.
Actually, judging from that post, the antecedent to which your valued pronoun refers can be easily misconstrued.

Regardless, a discussion of endophoras was not my point. When you post what you did without an upfront acknowledgment of the origin of the majority of your OP (if you don't know to whom you should attribute the list, at the very least you should mention from where you got it), it looks as if you are claiming authorship. It shouldn't be left up to the readers to discern when you have and have not lifted your writing.

[SkipMagic]

In addition, keep in mind that copyrights don't have to be present in a work for it to have copyright protection. To further clarify, that list was copyrighted upon creation (http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html):When is my work protected?
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.

FYI.

[lynn73]

Here's a good link on Santa Claus, the great imposter:

http://av1611.org/othpubls/santa.html

[Lord Ashtar]

Originally posted by ExecutiveJesus
No no, this is a humorous way to look at a logically sound arguement.

Also, please do not ad hominem this one...

I beg you.

Take it for what it is; and nothing more.

Add substance.

I'm taking it as seriously as you are.

[lekatt]

Originally posted by Meatros
No offense Lekatt, but why do people have all sorts of different 'experiences' towards different deities altogether?


They don't, there is only the Oneness of God, or whatever name you wish to use. All see the same image, but through their filters of belief picked up in physical living. When they die, everyone sees the same as the same.

Love

[lekatt]

Originally posted by Meatros
What are you saying? God is not disappointed when I go to Hell?

No, If you go to hell, it will be your choice. Why would you want to go there?

God is Love all the time everytime. Unconditional Love

Love

[Meatros]

Originally posted by lekatt
They don't, there is only the Oneness of God, or whatever name you wish to use. All see the same image, but through their filters of belief picked up in physical living. When they die, everyone sees the same as the same.

Love

And this happens to be the Christian image?




Holding off on the Christian angle, if what you say is correct, then it would mean that all religions are wrong.

[Meatros]

Originally posted by lekatt
No, If you go to hell, it will be your choice. Why would you want to go there?

God is Love all the time everytime. Unconditional Love

Love

You didn't answer my question at all, but you brought up a new problem.

If it's our choice whether or not we go to Hell (I assume you mean after death), then why is there a Hell? No one would rationally choose to go there.

[lekatt]

Originally posted by Meatros
And this happens to be the Christian image?




Holding off on the Christian angle, if what you say is correct, then it would mean that all religions are wrong.

You are absolutely correct. God belongs to no religion. Can you think of any reason why He should. Men think up religion.

Love

[Meatros]

Originally posted by lekatt
You are absolutely correct. God belongs to no religion. Can you think of any reason why He should. Men think up religion.

Love

So Jesus doesn't exist?

[lekatt]

Originally posted by Meatros
So Jesus doesn't exist?

Why do you think that?

Jesus taught no religion, He taught love as He understood it by "knowing" the mind of God. Those who came after Him deified Him. The Christian religion has little to do with the teachings of Jesus.

Love

[Meatros]

Originally posted by lekatt
Why do you think that?

Jesus taught no religion, He taught love as He understood it by "knowing" the mind of God. Those who came after Him deified Him. The Christian religion has little to do with the teachings of Jesus.

Love

So one does not need to actually believe in Jesus to go to heaven?

[lekatt]

Originally posted by Meatros
You didn't answer my question at all, but you brought up a new problem.

If it's our choice whether or not we go to Hell (I assume you mean after death), then why is there a Hell? No one would rationally choose to go there.

It is our choice, and it exists because people believe in punishment. It was created by those punishment thoughts.
Heaven was created by a belief in reward and created by those thoughts. God is not known to promote either one, God is love.

Love

[lekatt]

Originally posted by Meatros
So one does not need to actually believe in Jesus to go to heaven?

That is correct, but many who desire to go to Heaven soon leave it. It is very boring there, not much to do. Once you praise God for a couple hundred years and sing it gets old.

Love

[spejic]

Proof that Satan speaks English as his main language:

1) There have been a number of documentary films of Satan, including "South Park: Bigger, Longer & Uncut", "Oh, God! You Devil", "Rock'n with Satan", "The Devil and Daniel Webster", "Daredevil", and many episodes of the Twilight Zone and always spoke English.

2) I have in my hands the Bible, the admitted Word of God. In it, Satan is speaking in English.

[Tangent]

Originally posted by lekatt
That is correct, but many who desire to go to Heaven soon leave it. It is very boring there, not much to do. Once you praise God for a couple hundred years and sing it gets old.

So then what? Reincarnation? Have you been to Heaven--is this how you have such information?

[Lord Ashtar]

Originally posted by spejic
Proof that Satan speaks English as his main language:

1) There have been a number of documentary films of Satan, including "South Park: Bigger, Longer & Uncut", "Oh, God! You Devil", "Rock'n with Satan", "The Devil and Daniel Webster", "Daredevil", and many episodes of the Twilight Zone and always spoke English.

2) I have in my hands the Bible, the admitted Word of God. In it, Satan is speaking in English.

You're kidding...right?

[Aeschines]

Tsk tsk, the mocking, self-superior tone of the "skeptics" is in evidence here.

Even so, I agree that a monotheistic "God" does not, in fact, exist.

[Meatros]

Originally posted by lekatt
That is correct, but many who desire to go to Heaven soon leave it. It is very boring there, not much to do. Once you praise God for a couple hundred years and sing it gets old.

Love

You know, I could have sworn you beliefs were different-my apologies. I'm not going to derail this conversation, but I could have sworn you rejected evolution-is this the case? If it is, what is the basis for your rejection? You don't have to go into great detail, I'm not going to argue them and I don't want to derail this thread with a discussion on the matter-I'm just curious.

[Meatros]

Originally posted by Aeschines
Tsk tsk, the mocking, self-superior tone of the "skeptics" is in evidence here.

Even so, I agree that a monotheistic "God" does not, in fact, exist.

Interesting...

What is that condition where you see traits in others that are actually present in yourself?

;)

[lynn73]

Originally posted by lekatt
That is correct, but many who desire to go to Heaven soon leave it. It is very boring there, not much to do. Once you praise God for a couple hundred years and sing it gets old.

Love

I'm sure that there's going to be a lot more than that going on, Lekatt. Eye hath not seen, ear hath not heard, neither hath entered into the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those that love Him. It's not going to be boring.

Oh, and by saying that you don't need to believe in Jesus to go to heaven, you disagree with the Bible. John 3:16 says whosoever believeth should not perish. Check out John 3:36 too.

[lekatt]

Originally posted by Meatros
You know, I could have sworn you beliefs were different-my apologies. I'm not going to derail this conversation, but I could have sworn you rejected evolution-is this the case? If it is, what is the basis for your rejection? You don't have to go into great detail, I'm not going to argue them and I don't want to derail this thread with a discussion on the matter-I'm just curious.


I reject any and all creation type theories, how could anyone know what happened. From where came the first "atom"?

Love

[lekatt]

Originally posted by lynn73
I'm sure that there's going to be a lot more than that going on, Lekatt. Eye hath not seen, ear hath not heard, neither hath entered into the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those that love Him. It's not going to be boring.

Oh, and by saying that you don't need to believe in Jesus to go to heaven, you disagree with the Bible. John 3:16 says whosoever believeth should not perish. Check out John 3:36 too.

I see you're back in different dress.

You didn't read my post very well.

You are no more sure of what goes on in heaven than I.
You know only what you read.
I speak from what I experience.

It is not necessary to be a Christian or even a believer in God to go to heaven. The Bible view is one culture, God's view is universal. Know you won't agree, your belief keeps you safe, so you think. Everyone is safe, whole, loved, and connected to God. It is just that most are not aware of it.

Teach love, learn love, live love.



Love

[lynn73]

You're right, Lekatt, I don't agree with you. I believe the Bible is the word if God, you may not. Therefore, for me, it has the final authority on what's true about the afterlife, not a near death experience. Your words don't match what the Bible says, so therefore I choose to believe the Bible. You can continiue to put your trust in the info received from your near death experience as I'm sure you will, and I'll continue to pray for you as the Lord brings you to mind. Peace.

Merry Christmas.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by lynn73
You're right, Lekatt, I don't agree with you. I believe the Bible is the word if God, you may not. Therefore, for me, it has the final authority on what's true about the afterlife, not a near death experience. Your words don't match what the Bible says, so therefore I choose to believe the Bible. You can continiue to put your trust in the info received from your near death experience as I'm sure you will, and I'll continue to pray for you as the Lord brings you to mind. Peace.

Merry Christmas. lynn, G-d reveals himself to us in many different ways, every day if you're watching. The Bible is good for inspiration, but your life is where you'll find out what you really need to know about G-d. Love

[Tangent]

All together now:

one of us... one of us... one of us...


love

[IWLN]

Originally posted by Tangent
All together now:

one of us... one of us... one of us...


love See, isn't that nice. ;)

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally posted by lynn73
I'm sure that there's going to be a lot more than that going on, Lekatt. Eye hath not seen, ear hath not heard, neither hath entered into the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those that love Him. It's not going to be boring.

Oh, and by saying that you don't need to believe in Jesus to go to heaven, you disagree with the Bible. John 3:16 says whosoever believeth should not perish. Check out John 3:36 too.
Jesus said whoever loves God and loves his neighbor will have eternal life. In the parable of the sheep and the goats he defined loving God as being synonomous with loving one's neighbor.

So according to Jesus, all you have to do is love your neighbor. God doesn't give a rat's ass what you pray to, or if you pray at all.

That is, unless God is an evil bastard.

[lynn73]

If you go to crosswalk. com and look up the word "pray" in the Bible search tool, you'll find 66 hits for the New Testament alone. I think God does care whether His children pray to Him or not, despite what you say.

Mr 13:33
Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

Mr 14:38 - Show Context
Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

Ac 8:22
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

1Th 5:17
Pray without ceasing.

1Ti 2:8
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Jas 5:14
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Jas 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

1Jo 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

A small sampling.

quote by Diogenes:
Jesus said whoever loves God and loves his neighbor will have eternal life.

Jesus also said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me. John 14:6

Also - Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Matt. 10:32-33

Mark
16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Luke 9
9:26
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

All these are Jesus' words. There's more to salvation than just loving one's neighbor. Reading the whole council of Scripture reveals that abundantly imho.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Jesus said that loving God and loving one's neigbor were the highest commandments. That's waht he meant by following him and that's all he meant.

Jesus = Love.

No one gets to God but through love.

If specific belief is a criterion then God is a dick who is not worth worshipping.

[lekatt]

Originally posted by lynn73
You're right, Lekatt, I don't agree with you. I believe the Bible is the word if God, you may not. Therefore, for me, it has the final authority on what's true about the afterlife, not a near death experience. Your words don't match what the Bible says, so therefore I choose to believe the Bible. You can continiue to put your trust in the info received from your near death experience as I'm sure you will, and I'll continue to pray for you as the Lord brings you to mind. Peace.

Merry Christmas.

Yes, I will believe in my experience, because it makes sense. It describes a universal Loving God. One needs not grovel, worship, or set aside reason, God gives to us His love, creates us perfect in His image, holds us safe and secure through all eternity. He asks nothing in return. We are indeed blessed. We learn about God by emulating Him, giving our love to others, and helping them as we can.

If you wish to believe only in a book written by man, it is ok, but you will miss a lot of joy, peace, knowledge, and wisdom. Please as least pay attention to what Jesus said, He understands the mind of God.

God understands our needs before we pray, so pray for understanding giving thanks for His love and protection.

Love

[lekatt]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Jesus said that loving God and loving one's neigbor were the highest commandments. That's waht he meant by following him and that's all he meant.

Jesus = Love.

No one gets to God but through love.

If specific belief is a criterion then God is a dick who is not worth worshipping.

Yes, God is worthy of our honor, but does not require our worship. He has no ego to massage. God is like a true loving father who we look to for love, knowledge, guidance, etc.

Love

[lynn73]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
If specific belief is a criterion then God is a dick who is not worth worshipping.

I'm just sharing with you what God says in His word. It's clear that belief is necessary if you believe what the Bible says. I'm not making it up and can requote the Scriptures if you like. If you don't care for what it says, don't want to believe or accept it, and want to call God names, that's your choice and evidently you've made it.

[vanilla]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic


Jesus = Love.

No one gets to God but through love.



Where is that in your Bible?
Mine says No one gets to Heaven except through Jesus.
Jesus died for us, he took our guilt.
Jesus is the ONLY way.
All other ways are wrong, including Islam.

lynn did a good job of demolishing your "argument".
She is improving in her debating skills.
IMHO>

Gee, what a dick God was to send His son to die even though He wasn't guilty just so we could "love"forever.

:rolleyes: :p

[IWLN]

And here we have a prime example of why I will not call myself a Christian anymore. This is sad. Jesus died for nothing.

[vanilla]

:)

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally posted by vanilla
Where is that in your Bible?
Mine says No one gets to Heaven except through Jesus.
Jesus died for us, he took our guilt.
Jesus is the ONLY way.
Beloved, let us love one another. For love is of God,
and he who loves is born of God, and knows God.
He who doesn't love, does not know God, for God is love.
(1 John 4: 7-8)
All other ways are wrong, including Islam.
Come on, vanilla, you're better than that. Let's read a little more from that same chapter:

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.
(1 John 4:16)

Can Muslims live in love?

If God is love, then isn't love God? Isn't love Christ?
lynn did a good job of demolishing your "argument".
She is improving in her debating skills.
IMHO>
Do you still think that?

Gee, what a dick God was to send His son to die even though He wasn't guilty just so we could "love"forever.

:rolleyes: :p
What kind of dick demands a sacrifice in the first place?

Jesus' life is what mattered, not his death.

[vanilla]

Yes,I do think that.
You seem to be just set against anything she says.

God did demand a sacrifice.
He loved us. A sacrifice had to be perfect and only Jesus was.

Jesus is the onlyway.
Do Muslims worship Jesus and accept His death as atonement for their sins?
if so,then they've got it made.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

All they have to do is love...or is the Bible wrong?

[vanilla]

God is love.
yep.
He is also (as eveyone conveniently forgets) Just.

A loving judge would put no one in jail,even Manson.(Saddam,etc)
A just judge must punish the guilty.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Who are the guilty?

[vanilla]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic


Come on, vanilla, you're better than that.



Jesus' life is what mattered, not his death.

1.Thank you.You think so?

2.In Romans,I believe, it says One man died as a sacrifice,once for all.
I wish Monty were here, he knew his Bible verses.:(

[vanilla]

who are the guilty?

Everyone who sins is guilty.
Jesus'sdeath was a self sacrifice to completely wash away the guilt.
You do understand that?:)

[Diogenes the Cynic]

WHY did god need a sacrifice , btw? What does God get out killing his son?

If God wanted to save us (from himself) then why didn't he just will that it be done. Why fabricate such a brutal and ultimately ineffective mechanism as a human sacrifice which must be believed without proof to save anyone?

[vanilla]

sir.
Ask God.
By faith you will be saved, not of works.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally posted by vanilla
who are the guilty?

Everyone who sins is guilty.
Jesus'sdeath was a self sacrifice to completely wash away the guilt.
You do understand that?:)
I really don't understand how Jesus' death washes away any sins. That has never been satisfatorily explained to me. Be that as it may, is all sin equal? Do all "sinners" deserve the same punishment? Does a pickpocket deserve the same punishment as Hitler? Is being a Muslim a sin?

Why does sin have to be washed away at all? Why can't God just forgive anyone he wants?

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Thank you.You think so?
Yes I do. You're not a judgemental person. You've shown good humor and compassion towards people who have quite different values than you do. You're not mean. That's what I like about you.
By faith you will be saved, not of works.
Ah...but faith is a work, is it not? ;j

[vanilla]

Like the judge just can't love and send away a guilty person before him.
The law demands justice,which is why Jesus died (in our place-He took the rap for us).


Like I said,Jesus is the only way. Do Muslims accept Jesus'death as a sacrifice for their sins,in faith?
ifnot,you have your answer.

Severity of sins?
Mercy triumphs over judgment.
Lets all be merciful.

[vanilla]

nah,faith isn't a work.
A work would be thinking tithing always will get you points towards heaven,or I'll do this so God will approve.
We all mess up,like children.
Like a parent(hopefully)God always forgives.

I have faith the sun will come out tomorrow(not out-it won't here,but be in its proper place.
I have faith God will save whom He will save,not upto me.
I can only pray.

Anyone else here,or is it just me and Dio?
I gotta go to bed soon.
Lynn?.....

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Let's save this for another day. It's Christmas Eve and I have to put "Santa's" presents under the tree for my daughter.

Have a pleasant and peaceful Christmas. :)

[vanilla]

Okay.Willcheck tomorrow eve.
BTW,I always told my son there is no Santa.
Didn't want to lie to him.
He said he preferrred it that way.He's almost 11.

Merry Xmas!
Happy Hanukah
Good Solstice
Felice Navidad
Happy Santanalia

[lekatt]

Originally posted by vanilla
Yes,I do think that.
You seem to be just set against anything she says.

God did demand a sacrifice.
He loved us. A sacrifice had to be perfect and only Jesus was.

Jesus is the onlyway.
Do Muslims worship Jesus and accept His death as atonement for their sins?
if so,then they've got it made.

You are confusing the Bible with God.
God did not write the Bible, man did.

God is love. Perhaps when you understand this simple fact it will be easier for you to understand the position of others.

Love

[vanilla]

God is also Just.
When you understand this,perhaps you will see where we are coming from.

[Freyr]

Originally posted by vanilla
Where is that in your Bible?
Mine says No one gets to Heaven except through Jesus.
Jesus died for us, he took our guilt.
Jesus is the ONLY way.
All other ways are wrong, including Islam.

This argument only works if one accepts the Christian paradigm as being objectively true. Otherwise, Christianity has no better a philosophical foundation than any other religion.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
Where is that in your Bible?
Mine says No one gets to Heaven except through Jesus.
Jesus died for us, he took our guilt.
Jesus is the ONLY way.
All other ways are wrong, including Islam.

Gee, what a dick God was to send His son to die even though He wasn't guilty just so we could "love"forever.Why would an all powerful, all knowing G-d come up with a plan that by virtue of what faith and what country you were born into would determine whether or not you go to heaven? Why would he have a plan that made it virtuously impossible for most of the world to go to heaven? Nobody is saying that you shouldn't believe in Jesus. Just consider that possibly we got some wrong ideas about what he was there for. He lived his life as an example and didn't turn his back on anyone needing help. The New Testament was written by men, struggling to make their religion somehow superior to other religions. G-d did not write the New Testament. Knowing Jesus is not your one way ticket to heaven. Living and loving each other as he did by example is all that's required. How can you think he loves Jews, Muslims or any other race or religion less than Christians?Philippians 2

Imitating Christ's Humility

1If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.

[lekatt]

Originally posted by vanilla
God is also Just.
When you understand this,perhaps you will see where we are coming from.

God is only love. God's law of love: "Ye will reap what ye sow" is just. Perfect justice for everyone.

Love

[lynn73]

Originally posted by lekatt
You are confusing the Bible with God.
God did not write the Bible, man did.

I'm not confused about it at all. The Author of the Bible is God, penned through the hands of men guided by the Holy Spirit. And it teaches that there is no other plan of salvation or way to the Father but through Christ. Not Buddha, not Muhammad, not through anyone but Christ. See Acts 4:12 and 1 Timothy 2:5

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:15-16

Choose who you want to believe, Jesus or Lekatt. If you just want to go by Jesus' words, Lekatt, you have it from His own lips that he that believeth not shall be damned. Everyone is not safe and secure as you claim and all aren't going to heaven. The Bible says so. Who should we believe, you or God? If everyone was automatically safe and secure and saved as you keep claiming, it would be totally unnecessary for Jesus to tell His followers to go to all the world and preach the gospel which is the good news that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and by believing and trusting in Him, we have eternal life. Missionaries have given their lives to go to other countries to share the life saving gospel of Jesus Christ with those who've never heard in fulfillment of the Great Commission given by Jesus to his disciples. Near death experiences aren't the final authority on spiritual truth, God is, and what He says in His word doesn't match what you're saying, period. And yes, it IS His Word regardless of what you say. 2 Timothy 3:16-17, 2 Peter 1:20-21

God says that His word shall stand forever.

http://pastorbaker.tripod.com/Lessons/Genesis/God.html

http://av1611.com/kjbp/articles/long-preserved.html

[lynn73]

And by the way, Lekatt, God isn't just love; read the whole Bible and find out about other aspects of His nature. It's true He is a God of love which is proven abundantly at the cross of Calvary but Scripture reveals Him as a God of wrath also. Once again, I'm aware you take your authority from what was revealed in an nde, not what the word of God teaches. I stand on the fact that some nde's can be and are deceptive in nature. If their messages are different from the truth of God revealed in His word, they are wrong, end of story.

http://www.dzinemaster.com/guysworld/studyofgod.html

http://www.allanturner.com/love.html

Peace.

[vanilla]

Originally posted by lekatt
God is only love. God's law of love: "Ye will reap what ye sow" is just. Perfect justice for everyone.

Love

Its not true.
Thanks to Jesus, I am forgiven and DON'T have to reap what I deserve.
Mercy.
Grace.

[lynn73]

[quote]Why does sin have to be washed away at all? Why can't God just forgive anyone he wants?[/b]

As vanilla says, ask God. Sins need to be washed away because God says they do.

Heb 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Perhaps this will help clarify for you a little:

http://www.behindthebadge.net/apologetics/discuss140.html

[lekatt]

Originally posted by vanilla
Its not true.
Thanks to Jesus, I am forgiven and DON'T have to reap what I deserve.
Mercy.
Grace.

This is the worst dogma of Christianity.

All you have to do is say you believe in Jesus and not only are your sins forgiven, but anything you may do after that is also forgiven.

I used to wonder why Christians seemed to me to be less moral than others.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way, you will reap what you sow as everyone else does. It don't matter what you believe, what matters is what you do. Please be kind and forgiving to others, don't be fooled by dogma conceived of men.


Love

[lekatt]

Originally posted by lynn73
[quote]Why does sin have to be washed away at all? Why can't God just forgive anyone he wants?

As vanilla says, ask God. Sins need to be washed away because God says they do.

Heb 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Perhaps this will help clarify for you a little:

http://www.behindthebadge.net/apologetics/discuss140.html [/B]

God sheds the blood of no one, how barbaric. Reminds me of the ancient human sacrifices. People have been putting words into God's mouth for centuries, with the outcome favorable to them. That is the reason they do it, of course.

God is love, now, in the past, and eternally.

Man in ignorance treats God as they would a puppet. Pulling His strings to suit themselves. It just don't work that way.

God has only one child, and we are it. Learn to share your love with all beings and you will understand.

Love

[vanilla]

Originally posted by lekatt

I used to wonder why Christians seemed to me to be less moral than others.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way, you will reap what you sow as everyone else does. It don't matter what you believe, what matters is what you do. Please be kind and forgiving to others, don't be fooled by dogma conceived of men.




Christians SEEM less moralto you?
Care toexplain?

Yes,it DOES work that way, thats what God says,but feelf reee to disregard anything God says.

What did the centurion say "Believe and thou shalt be saved?"

The BibleIS God's word.Don't believe it?
fine,make up whatever ideas you want and call them "christianity"but it won't be.
thanks for your "contribution".



Truth,
vanilla





:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
Christians SEEM less moralto you?
Care toexplain?This is not just about you, vanilla. You seem like a gentle spirit and wish no one any harm. But you speak harmful lies. You drive people away from G-d and spread pain throughout the world. There are so many times in my life that I had to listen to a "Christian" speak, at times dispassionately, about this race or this religion or this person standing in front of them going to HELL because they don't "KNOW JESUS". You take one little part of the Bible and turn it into some sort of cult worship. Everything anyone knows, believes, reads, understands about G-d is worth nothing in your opinion because of that one event in the Bible. You are cruel to people when you smugly tell them "accept Jesus or die". You make a mockery of G-d. The idea of ONE person going to hell should cause you immense pain. It does me.

Tell you what. If it is the way you say it is, I will barter with G-d. I will convince him of my genuine sorrow for the loss of such a wonderful people and I will beg him to damn my soul in return for saving the Jews, because I know for a fact Jesus Christ is not their savior. I would do this and G-d knows I would. I'm sure I can get other people to give up their spot in heaven so hundreds of thousands of Muslims will not be doomed. And another one for the Budhists. Please provide a list of races and religions that require a sacrifice and I am sure there are other people who would actually give up their life, their chance and lovingly save hundreds of thousands in their place. These people exist. Their devotion to G-d and man is selfless. How could I love G-d as much as I do and not love who he loves? How could I love who he loves and have one moment's peace if their souls were doomed. You probably think I'm being blaphemous or mocking, but I am not. G-d knows what's in my heart. That's how he will judge me. I was a Christian for forty years and I am convicted beyond a doubt that Christian's got the message wrong. The Word was love.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by lynn73
You're right, Lekatt, I don't agree with you. I believe the Bible is the word if God, you may not. Therefore, for me, it has the final authority on what's true about the afterlife, not a near death experience. Your words don't match what the Bible says, so therefore I choose to believe the Bible. You can continiue to put your trust in the info received from your near death experience as I'm sure you will, and I'll continue to pray for you as the Lord brings you to mind. Peace.I don't have a strong opinion of what actually causes NDE's, but their affect on a person is undeniable. I believe that some people need to actually die in order to realize what an amazing gift of life their soul actually is. So, although some of Lekatt's ideas and thoughts seem strange to me, I understand why he came to many of his conclusions. None of us have any way to truly interpret what eternal life is and even the Bible is not clear on it. What I am sure of is that I don't need to worry about the details or think of it as a reward that has somehow been paid for by someone else. I don't think I will be bored, because I have been given the gift of so many thoughts and experiences and also the mind that G-d gave me has an unlimited potential for self-amusement. I don't need to put my trust in the Bible or Lekatt or any other source for details on my afterlife. I trust G-d to know what is necessary for me. In this life, I can never do enough, or be good enough, to actually deserve heaven. But I have enough faith and love, which in the end will make up for my other short-comings. Lynn, your prayers for other people will go unheard until you gain your own unselfish understanding, compassion and love for them.

[Meatros]

Originally posted by lekatt
I reject any and all creation type theories, how could anyone know what happened. From where came the first "atom"?

Love


Do you reject even religious creation type theories?



In addition, other then incredulousness, would believing in a creation type theory change your faith? Or is it just not a faith issue what-so-ever, you just fail to see how mankind *could* know?


I'm still curious :D.

[vanilla]

Originally posted by IWLN
But you speak harmful lies. . You take one little part of the Bible You are cruel to people when you smugly tell them "accept Jesus or die". because I know for a fact Jesus Christ is not their savior.

I speak harmful lies.
Cite?


I tellpeople that?Smugly, even?
Show me when I did that.

You know for a FACT Jesus is not their savior.
Well, lets see those FACTS.

[Genghis Bob]

Originally posted by lynn73
[B][. . . Heb 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. . .
B]

The important part of this quote is the phrase "by the law". Paul's point has always been that Law has been supplanted by Grace - the price of blood is no longer required, as God has fulfilled it himself. God did not merely send his son as a sacrifice, God became himself the sacrifice. Jesus is not separate from God.

Paul is saying that the Law requires blood, but God requires something different. Since man cannot seem to let go of the legalism of blood sacrifice, God provides the ultimate sacrifice, putting to an end forever the requirement for sacrifice.

[lekatt]

Originally posted by IWLN
This is not just about you, vanilla. You seem like a gentle spirit and wish no one any harm. But you speak harmful lies. You drive people away from G-d and spread pain throughout the world. There are so many times in my life that I had to listen to a "Christian" speak, at times dispassionately, about this race or this religion or this person standing in front of them going to HELL because they don't "KNOW JESUS". You take one little part of the Bible and turn it into some sort of cult worship. Everything anyone knows, believes, reads, understands about G-d is worth nothing in your opinion because of that one event in the Bible. You are cruel to people when you smugly tell them "accept Jesus or die". You make a mockery of G-d. The idea of ONE person going to hell should cause you immense pain. It does me.

Tell you what. If it is the way you say it is, I will barter with G-d. I will convince him of my genuine sorrow for the loss of such a wonderful people and I will beg him to damn my soul in return for saving the Jews, because I know for a fact Jesus Christ is not their savior. I would do this and G-d knows I would. I'm sure I can get other people to give up their spot in heaven so hundreds of thousands of Muslims will not be doomed. And another one for the Budhists. Please provide a list of races and religions that require a sacrifice and I am sure there are other people who would actually give up their life, their chance and lovingly save hundreds of thousands in their place. These people exist. Their devotion to G-d and man is selfless. How could I love G-d as much as I do and not love who he loves? How could I love who he loves and have one moment's peace if their souls were doomed. You probably think I'm being blaphemous or mocking, but I am not. G-d knows what's in my heart. That's how he will judge me. I was a Christian for forty years and I am convicted beyond a doubt that Christian's got the message wrong. The Word was love.

Such a beautiful and accurate post deserves to be quoted.

Here I quote myself: "GOD wrote His sacred word on the hearts of all mankind -- LOVE."


Like to add something about believing. Action is a reflection of belief. If you say you believe in Jesus and His teachings, then steal, lie, and cheat your fellow man. This means that you don't really believe at all, you are just spouting words, and wrongfully think those words will make you safe.

In reality you are always safe, remember who you are, God's child.

Love

[lekatt]

Originally posted by Meatros
Do you reject even religious creation type theories?



In addition, other then incredulousness, would believing in a creation type theory change your faith? Or is it just not a faith issue what-so-ever, you just fail to see how mankind *could* know?


I'm still curious :D.


No creation theory, or any other theory will change my knowledge. I do not need to operate on faith, as I have seen with mine own eyes.

The near death experience taught me how important it is to live in truth as truth is known to you. To be bravely honest in everything you know. When you do this more truth is added to the truth you own. So the truth is simple, we don't know how this universe came into being, so why spend precious time arguing about it.

The only thing that really matters is Love, not what you get, but what you give.

LOve

[lekatt]

Originally posted by Meatros
Do you reject even religious creation type theories?



In addition, other then incredulousness, would believing in a creation type theory change your faith? Or is it just not a faith issue what-so-ever, you just fail to see how mankind *could* know?


I'm still curious :D.


No creation theory, or any other theory will change my knowledge. I do not need to operate on faith, as I have seen with mine own eyes.

The near death experience taught me how important it is to live in truth as truth is known to you. To be bravely honest in everything you know and do. When you do this more truth is added to the truth you own. So the truth is simple, we don't know how this universe came into being, so why spend precious time arguing about it.

The only thing that really matters is Love, not what you get, but what you give.

Love

[ImNotMad2]

Quote from lekatt
....
Sorry, it doesn't work that way, you will reap what you sow as everyone else does. It don't matter what you believe, what matters is what you do. Please be kind and forgiving to others, don't be fooled by dogma conceived of men.

LoveJust curious, lekatt, if you were to make up a religion, what would it be?

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
I speak harmful lies.
Cite?
I tellpeople that?Smugly, even?
Show me when I did that.by vanilla
Where is that in your Bible?
Mine says No one gets to Heaven except through Jesus.
Jesus died for us, he took our guilt.
Jesus is the ONLY way.
All other ways are wrong, including Islam.
The only way you can state that "Jesus is the only way," beyond a shadow of a doubt, is to have been there or perhaps received an informational visit from G-d. It IS harmful to tell someone they are going to Hell, unless they do what you recommend! It IS smug to pretend you have that much specific knowledge about the status of the well-being of their soul! You are not an authority on any of this. You are merely repeating what you have been taught, with no way of verifying whether your teaching is true or false. Since it is contrary to a loving G-d, you would have to prove that it's true. The Bible is not proof, unless you can prove that G-d wrote it, with no human influence added.
You know for a FACT Jesus is not their savior.
Well, lets see those FACTS.Well I can re-quote all of the previous verses used by yourself and your fellow Christians, but that seems pointless. The Jews do not believe Christ was the Messiah, therefore they reject him. By your standards, hey it's off to hell they go. Forget about the promise G-d made them in the OT, because Jesus came along and due to a small technicality, G-d isn't going to honor his previous promises. NT, new book, new rules. Too bad.

Vanilla, it's sad to see you completely missed my point. I wasn't even trying to say that you should not be a Christian. I can see how important that is to you. Only that you should leave a little room for compassion and even the possibility that maybe G-d did not construct this plan that is guaranteed to fail to provide salvation for most people. I don't pretend to know everything, but it is obvious that the meaning behind Jesus' sacrifice was distorted, either deliberately or in error. Or the NT is not divinely inspired. I don't pretend to know which, but I know that the other option, that G-d set us up to fail is not true. I have been in G-d's presence and feel his presence in me. The only two emotions I have truly felt from him were infinite love and also sorrow. He is loving and compassionate. We should be too.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by ImNotMad2
Just curious, lekatt, if you were to make up a religion, what would it be? I think we should consult with G-d on the next one and quit making up our own. ;)

[Freyr]

Originally posted by IWLN
The only way you can state that "Jesus is the only way," beyond a shadow of a doubt, is to have been there or perhaps received an informational visit from G-d. It IS harmful to tell someone they are going to Hell, unless they do what you recommend! It IS smug to pretend you have that much specific knowledge about the status of the well-being of their soul! You are not an authority on any of this. You are merely repeating what you have been taught, with no way of verifying whether your teaching is true or false. Since it is contrary to a loving G-d, you would have to prove that it's true. The Bible is not proof, unless you can prove that G-d wrote it, with no human influence added.


Well spoken!

I wish there was some way that the many Christians who project this smarmy smugness could see how others are perceiving them and therefore get an idea why they and Christianity in general are received with such hostility.

[lekatt]

Originally posted by ImNotMad2
Just curious, lekatt, if you were to make up a religion, what would it be?

No chance at all of me making up another religion. They tend to become self serving and miss the mark altogether.

It is simple, God is Love.

Spiritual law is you will get back what you put out. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Ye will reap what you sow.

There is no justice more fair than this, and it does work. Check out your life and where you're at, know that the decisions you have made in the past put you there. Want a good life? Make good honest decisions.


Love

[vanilla]

ah,but I've never told anyone they were going to hell unless they believed what i do.

When Jesus returns,the Jews will recognize Him as their savior (finally) so....how is that a problem?
He keeps His covenants.

Also,it isNOT harmful to tell someone they are going to Hell (or on their way (AC/DC!)
Unless you think its harmful to tell someone to get out of the street because a car is heading for them.

[GRIZZBAR]

Gawd, Jesus, Buddah, Jehovah, Mohammed, Allah, etc., etc...
Same G-d, different religon. Santa Claus, however, is a slightly different story. Or, is it? A belief system based on an unseen kindly old fat man in a red suit with miraculous powers of flight and spatial control, and with the power to talk to the animals, and to know and see all, and judge those seen to be bad or good by way of a really big list? Now, THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT! I will go on the record and say that the name "Santa Claus" is an extrapolation of the original, "St. Nicolas" of European fame. It seems that some people overheard a Finnish newspaperman talking about Saint Nick and misspoke his pronunciation. "Santa Nicholas" was shortened to "Santa Claus" in more modern times. Or, Jolly Old Saint Nick, the original, could be, as Earl R. Dingman described him in his, "Another Glass of Egg Nog... 'Some say St. Nicholas was a 4th century Bishop. It's also believed the Christian church made up this person to help spread the fable (Hagios Nikolaos or St. Nicholas, of Myra, the patron Saint of children and sailors who loved children and threw anonymous gifts into the open windows of any home where children lived). '" Indeed. Any way you slice it, it doesn't really matter what your belief system is, or how many times you see (H)is likeness, if you do believe that is all (H)e asks... My question is this: Who is St. Nick the Patron Saint of, anyway? Oh, that's easy! The Patron Saint of Shopkeepers and Toy Store Owners everywhere!

Quote the bulldog: "My mind is made up - don't confuse me with the facts!"

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
ah,but I've never told anyone they were going to hell unless they believed what i do.Yes, you pretty much did. Someone who won't be saved, will be lost. And you agreed with lynn73 who actually speaks of people being damned.

When Jesus returns,the Jews will recognize Him as their savior (finally) so....how is that a problem?
He keeps His covenants.How do you know this? Does this apply to the Muslims too, or only the ones he made the covenant with? Can you cite in the Bible where it says that "Jesus is the only way" except for?

Also,it isNOT harmful to tell someone they are going to Hell (or on their way (AC/DC!)
Unless you think its harmful to tell someone to get out of the street because a car is heading for them.I would agree with you, except you have only heard a story that the car is headed for them. You don't even know if it's true. Also, since the driver of that car is someone they have faith in, I think it's more likely he will just pick them up, rather than run them down. That's called having faith.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally posted by lekatt
No chance at all of me making up another religion. They tend to become self serving and miss the mark altogether.

It is simple, God is Love.

Spiritual law is you will get back what you put out. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Ye will reap what you sow.

There is no justice more fair than this, and it does work. Check out your life and where you're at, know that the decisions you have made in the past put you there. Want a good life? Make good honest decisions.


Love
You know, lekatt, I might be one of those skeptics that bother you so much but I have to say I have no problem at all with your philosphy. It's consistent, it's clean. it's simple and it's heartfelt.

Good on you for that. :)

[lekatt]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
You know, lekatt, I might be one of those skeptics that bother you so much but I have to say I have no problem at all with your philosphy. It's consistent, it's clean. it's simple and it's heartfelt.

Good on you for that. :)

Thank you very much.

All of us are connected at our inner source of love.

Love

[lynn73]

Yes, you pretty much did. Someone who won't be saved, will be lost. And you agreed with lynn73 who actually speaks of people being damned.

I spoke of it because the Bible speaks of it. It's not something I made up. If you believe the Bible is God's word and believe what it says, then you accept it. If you don't, you don't. As I've said in the past, we have to come to God on His terms, not ours or what we think they ought to be. He's God, we're not. And love isn't the only part of His nature, a reading of the whole Bible will reveal that. We can either accept Him as He's revealed Himself to us in His word or we can reject Him because He's not the kind of God we think he ought to be. But I wouldn't doubt His love just because a sacrifice had to be made. He reconciled His love for humanity with his wrath toward sin at Calvary, that's love. It's now up to each individual what to do with that. He won't force anyone. And to me, not accepting Christ as Savior just because we don't like the fact that God requires the shedding of blood or because we think He ought to just forgive us with no repentence on our part and accepting what He's provided, is like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Like saying to God "you accept me as I am, sin and all, and to blankey blank with accepting Christ. I'd rather go to hell." God will honor that decision.

Peace.

[vanilla]

People think God is all love and no justice.
I suppose they think all real life judges are mean when they sentence people.
Just is just; we are all guilty.
God is even a Better judge, He purposely gave His son the sentence we were supposed to have, so we could go free forever.
THAT , my dear people, is LOVE.

[IWLN]

*Witness Alert* Sorry.:(
Originally posted by vanilla
People think God is all love and no justice.
I suppose they think all real life judges are mean when they sentence people.
Just is just; we are all guilty.
God is even a Better judge, He purposely gave His son the sentence we were supposed to have, so we could go free forever.
THAT , my dear people, is LOVE. I'm sure I've said some of this before, but I'm compelled to try one more time, so here it is. I don't know if anyone but Christians think of G-d in this odd way. This twisted version of love that is based on a reward and punishment system. According to your story, G-d created everything. He created an imperfect man, only so we could either do what we are supposed to, or be damned eternally. He actually created guilt and sin. He set himself up as our judge and is judging us for the traits and sins he intentionally created in us. Since all of this was part of his plan and he knows exactly how it's going to go, why act like there is some sort of choice? You don't have one. You only think you do. Enter Jesus which is supposed to be our ticket out of hell. The only thing is, G-d set it up where only a minority could actually receive this salvation. G-d gave Jesus the sentence we were supposed to have, which incidentally that first sentence was also created by him. What went wrong that G-d needed to save man from himself? It doesn't sound much like a loving G-d's plan, does it?

When I was a Christian, and believe me it sounds odd to hear myself put this in the past tense, I always felt like we had somehow got the story wrong. But I was taught to feel guilt at questioning any of this. I have never doubted G-d, just religion's interpretation of him. I believe in this life, everything we're going through has a purpose. I don't believe that purpose is to pass or fail. I believe that purpose is to grow, to learn, to experience; to become a more complete soul. And to return to G-d with a full and deep range of love, compassion and the ability to understand selfless sacrifice and humility. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, deserve more than anyone else and I don't think there will ever be a time that I can't learn more and do better. I don't fear G-d, although I respect him beyond all else. I can't bring myself to fear him when I feel the depth of his love.

lynn73 & vanilla I don't understand why you don't think you have more to learn. Why you think a book filled with words is the definition of why you're here. You cause G-d sorrow when you're not compassionate to those he loves as much as he loves you. You are so focused on what that book says that you forget to live how that book tells you to. I am sure that G-d's intent with the Bible was not to influence people to the point that they are so inflexible, so rigid in their beliefs, that they are unable to communicate in a successful way, with non-believers. It doesn't matter if your fellow Christians give you a high five for correct content and delivery. It's how the people you are supposed to be trying to reach percieve you. I wonder sometimes if you think I'm something evil sent your way to test your faith or if you ever realize that G-d is always present and is always sending other people your way, to try and get through the hardness you've become? I do have my faults, am pretty sure I'm not evil and as far as I know, we're still on the same side, I think. Sort of. :rolleyes:

[vanilla]

Originally posted by IWLN
He created an imperfect man, only so we could either do what we are supposed to, or be damned eternally.



You cause G-d sorrow when you're not compassionate to those he loves as much as he loves you. , to try and get through the hardness you've become?

God gave man free will.He didn't have to mess up.

I am compassionate.
Do you have proof otherwise?
Do you know me?

I am not hardness.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
God gave man free will.He didn't have to mess up.G-d created man to mess up. There is no man without sin. Free will when it comes to not sinning is an illusion. There has been a 100% failure rate at not sinning. Man had to mess up. It was G-d's will that he mess up. Find me a human who has not sinned and I will agree that we have free will.

I am compassionate.
Do you have proof otherwise?
Do you know me?

I am not hardness.I believe you probably are compassionate and not hard. But what you portray, what other people see, is you casually, calmly referring to most of the world's eternal damnation. It sounds cold-hearted and almost smug to me and have seen others comment on it. Didn't you notice in the Pagan Heaven thread that a Christian Heaven was not a popular concept? It doen't matter how you really are vanilla, not on this forum. It only matters what you say and how you say it. Again, it's obvious that your church is really important to you and I'm not trying to say you shouldn't be a Christian. All I wish for you, is that you would stop and consider that G-d is wiser than the Christian religion gives him credit for and consider that his plan is probably a lot better than the one you believe he has.

[vanilla]

I have never seen anyone comment on here about me being cold or smug.
Have I missed these posts?
Never saw any.

So everyone goes to Heaven cause God is so loving.
What of those who don'twant to go?
If that were true, Jesus died for nothing (and He knew why he chose to die also).
Must sleep now.
Back tomorrow.
Lynn can come by and comment also,I would hope.
She is compassionate and not hard hearted.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
I have never seen anyone comment on here about me being cold or smug.
Have I missed these posts?
Never saw any.I'm not trying to insult you in any way. I don't think you have anything but good intentions. This is about Christianity's message. But don't you ever notice the negative response. There don't seem to be many people thanking you for sharing or appreciating it much. I'm sure there are many people who just don't bother to complain anymore, too. I went to two threads so I could give you some examples of what is said after your witness. See below:

<No misdeed in this world, no matter how heinous, justifies an endless eternity of agonizing punishment. Anyone who would support such a belief is a sadist of the first order.
<Heaven as an eternity-long church service. That's certainly my definition of Hell.
<y'know, descriptions of the Christian afterlife is one of the things that drove me away from my fundie background.
<Did you ever think that God seems to have some serious self-esteem issues?
<I couldn't agree more. If God is like so many paint him, so judgmental that he'd doom someone to Hell for believe in say, evolution for example, then he's a sadistic bastard who delights in torturing others.
<I grew up trying to believe this idea and twisting myself in knots trying to perceive it as a good thing. But the longer I'm away from this belief system, the uglier it seems when I come across it again. Sin, sacrifice, punishment, hell... Who wants to live for all eternity with a god associated with all that bloody mess?
<All I can say is that the heaven the poster above me posits will be inhabited by far too few people for my taste.
<Not only does it have too few people, Siege, it's also not a place I would care to go even if I were welcome.
<I dunno about anyone else, this kind of rationale always sounded a bit too much like "Caesar can do no wrong," for my tastes.
<And for Him to throw me into a Pit because I will not kiss ass of people who are cruel and hateful, well, I'm sorry. That FEELS wrong to me.
<Yeah, God sends his word...through people who spit on others and call people foul and degenerate and traitors when they are kind and good. I have no problem with God...but some of his followers piss me off big time.
<Supposedly, God is perfect good. If we can find even ONE instance in which he did something evil, we disprove the perfect good attribute. But when we do find something that looks pretty evil to us, it's explained away by saying that God is Good, therefore all God does is Good, even if it looks Evil to us poor, imperfect creatures.
<I was replying to the poster above me,who is rather rabid about his dislike of God.
<IWLN is right. When non-believers are confronted with obviously and demonstrably bogus assertions it just makes us roll our eyes. Faith has to be reconciled with reason if you want to spread it to others.
<I NEVER said I don't agree with God. I don't agree with the BIBLE. And yes, there is a difference. The Bible is not God.
<I said that the God PORTRAYED BY SOME is a sadistic bastard. But I don't believe that God is like that.
<Specifically, I tire of people who decry god's love and mercy as good, yet refuse to take into account eternal fire and torment upon where the gaits of entry are wide.
<Does God condone the torture of evil people, after they die?
<I like to think that anything that condones torture is wrong, and if it does so in full knowledge of what it does, then it is evil.
<I will not worship anything that is evil. So my worship of God is conditional on that He is not a torturer. My beleif is that God is not a torturer and is not Evil, and I think that belief requires me to reject parts of the bible as errors or lies.I would conclude from even just a few of these statements that my witness wasn't working and evaluate what would be necessary to be more effective. I didn't have to look very hard for these and I'm sure I could come up with many more. I came across many of your statements that were so matter of fact and emotionless about people not being saved. If I believed what you are saying and had to deliver this message to people, it certainly would be emotional. You don't calmly state, "look out that car is going to hit you." There's usually a little panic on the part of the witness in that case. I don't believe your message is strictly true, but it should still be compassionate and loving. I'm not even denying G-d has a little wrath thing going. But I do know he hates the sin and not the sinner.


So everyone goes to Heaven cause God is so loving.
What of those who don'twant to go?
If that were true, Jesus died for nothing (and He knew why he chose to die also).I rather doubt that any one, given the right information and circustances would pass up eternal life. As it stands though, many people don't want to spend eternal life with a god that they see as less moral than they are. Although I will admit to having doubts about the NT and Jesus dying for our sins; what I used to feel sure was true is that yes, he died for our sins, but the message was a symbolic message of love and sacrifice. His actual death wasn't the point and didn't give you a "get out of Hell" card. It was his life and his sacrifice you were supposed to understand as a pure example. One to try and live by.

[lekatt]

Jesus died because He was politically and religiously incorrect.
The Romans though He might form an army and lead the Jewish people in revolt against Rome. (Not a chance.) The religious leaders of the day thought He would undermine their authority with His erroneous, to them, teachings. So they falsely accused Him and had Him put to death. None of this had anything to do with "dying for our sins." Dying for our sins is purely a religious doctrine.

God does not kill His children. Who would Jesus have been sacrified to? God? So God sacrificed Himself (Jesus) to Himself (God.)

This is not believable in any logical sense, but doctrine has never been known to be logical.

"know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

God is love, unconditional love, just as Jesus taught. Love one another, do not judge others, go the second mile in helping others.

No one is going to burn eternally in some fanticized hell, because God does not love them and puts them there. Please don't try to push that ignorant notion that God loves, but still burns people up.

God loves you, everyone, more than you can ever realize, and holds you safe and secure in His love.


Love

[vanilla]

ILWN,
Of course the message isn't well received.
it never will be!
Who wants to think theres anything wrong or sinful about themselves?
My comments on lekatt's mistakes are:
Jesus chose to die, He was out sacrifice,or haven't i said that enough?
Maybe he just doesn't want to hear..

[IWLN]

Originally posted by lekatt
Jesus died because He was politically and religiously incorrect.
The Romans though He might form an army and lead the Jewish people in revolt against Rome. (Not a chance.) The religious leaders of the day thought He would undermine their authority with His erroneous, to them, teachings. So they falsely accused Him and had Him put to death. None of this had anything to do with "dying for our sins." Dying for our sins is purely a religious doctrine.

God does not kill His children. Who would Jesus have been sacrified to? God? So God sacrificed Himself (Jesus) to Himself (God.)

This is not believable in any logical sense, but doctrine has never been known to be logical.Thanks lekatt for clarifying that. I still have some left over phantom Christian superstition/angst, that makes it hard to actually deny the Christian's message of Christ as the messiah. I can't quite say it in a complete sentence yet. :(

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
Of course the message isn't well received.
it never will be!
Who wants to think theres anything wrong or sinful about themselves?
My comments on lekatt's mistakes are:
Jesus chose to die, He was out sacrifice,or haven't i said that enough?
Maybe he just doesn't want to hear.. vanilla, That is just too ridiculous. I have never met anyone who claimed they were perfect or wouldn't admit that they do wrong. That isn't even remotely an issue. The real issues, which you never addressed and I'm getting it now, never will, are things like how can it be fair that so few actually get to know Jesus and still it's a wise, loving plan? What about the Muslims who even if they hear of Jesus, see it as a part of our faith and unacceptable to them? Substitute any non-Christian into that question. Why wouldn't a message of salvation be well received? The people that made the negative comments about Christianity are I'm sure mostly good, decent, loving people who think your G-d doesn't seem moral enough. In a debate, you should adress questions and issues and not just repeat the same pre-programmed Christian Mantra over and over. If you have no answers or explanations, just say so and refuse to debate. You're using our exchange simply to keep airing that sad excuse for a witness. Too bad.

[vanilla]

God wants everyone to come to salvation.
Even Muslims have been known to do so!
I see you don't want to debate either, just put medown.
I love you.
Believe what you want.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
God wants everyone to come to salvation.
Even Muslims have been known to do so!
I see you don't want to debate either, just put medown.
I love you.
Believe what you want. I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to put you down. Be happy and G-d bless you. :)

[vanilla]

You spell God G-d.
Doesn't that mean you are Jewish?
yet you said you used to be a christian.
Yes?
:confused:

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
You spell God G-d.
Doesn't that mean you are Jewish?
yet you said you used to be a christian.
Yes?
:confused: No. But a Jewish person explained that they did that out of respect for the sacred name of G-d and I thought it would be a good reminder to me that I, uh....tend to be a little irreverent at times and need to stop. :( I have a deep respect for the Jewish faith and actually haven't found anything I disagree with in what small amount I know of them. Again, I'm sorry I pressed you for answers you didn't feel like you could give. Maybe lynn73 will answer some of them.

[vanilla]

:)

[lynn73]

I sincerely doubt if I can answer all your questions to your satisfaction. I'm not that great at it and I've tried to explain myself to people here before. You don't understand why vanilla and I stand on the word of God and aren't open to new things or new "spiritual truths." Of course, we're not open to anything that contradicts what God says, that's a given. We're Christians, therefore we believe what the Bible says, that's all there is to it. Of course, I don't want to speak too much for vanilla, I might not represent her correctly.


For Lekatt:

Mt 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

I wish you'd stop telling people Jesus didnt die for our sins, that he just died because he was religiously and politically incorrect. As shown in the above Scripture, Jesus disagrees with you. It's the very reason He came to this earth. I'm afraid you're going to feel awful someday that you've led many people away from the only way of salvation because you told them it wasn't necessary. I shudder to think of it, and will continue praying for you.

Anyone here that believes the Bible is God's word, please read what it says as compared to what Lekatt says. It doesn't match.

[lynn73]

P.S. If you don't overwhelm me and ask me one or two questions, I might try to answer whenever I get back here but my answers might me "I don't know."

[IWLN]

Originally posted by lynn73
I spoke of it because the Bible speaks of it. It's not something I made up. If you believe the Bible is God's word and believe what it says, then you accept it. If you don't, you don't. As I've said in the past, we have to come to God on His terms, not ours or what we think they ought to be. He's God, we're not. And love isn't the only part of His nature, a reading of the whole Bible will reveal that. We can either accept Him as He's revealed Himself to us in His word or we can reject Him because He's not the kind of God we think he ought to be. But I wouldn't doubt His love just because a sacrifice had to be made. He reconciled His love for humanity with his wrath toward sin at Calvary, that's love.Well I don't agree that a sacrifice had to be made. G-d chose that, if it really happened; it wasn't some sad decision he was forced to make. We're not going to agree on that, so I'll leave it alone now. What I'd like to know, you referred to reading the whole Bible to reveal G-d's nature. How does Christianity explain that Jesus doesn't meet the requirements laid out for fulfilling the prophecy of the messiah? When I was a Christian, this was basically ignored, but since I'm still fairly confident the OT is the word of G-d, I've been reading it more. I will admit a lot of this is new for me, never covered in my old religion, but it seems pretty clear. Why do you think Jesus is the messiah when it is clearly contradicted by the Old Testament? Is this part of the OT, not the word of G-d? How does your church explain this to you? This is not a challenge. I am completely puzzled and open to explanation.

[vanilla]

Yes, lynn73 you spoke for me.
In fact,you said it better than I.
:o

Jesus did fill the requirements of the Messaih.
He will return and be King over all the Earth and Jerusalem; His people.
Thats in the bible too.
Let lynn look it up! (My bible is not with me right now)

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
Yes, lynn73 you spoke for me.
In fact,you said it better than I.
:o

Jesus did fill the requirements of the Messaih.
He will return and be King over all the Earth and Jerusalem; His people.
Thats in the bible too.
Let lynn look it up! (My bible is not with me right now) He did not, did not! Okay.:cool:

[lekatt]

Originally posted by lynn73
I sincerely doubt if I can answer all your questions to your satisfaction. I'm not that great at it and I've tried to explain myself to people here before. You don't understand why vanilla and I stand on the word of God and aren't open to new things or new "spiritual truths." Of course, we're not open to anything that contradicts what God says, that's a given. We're Christians, therefore we believe what the Bible says, that's all there is to it. Of course, I don't want to speak too much for vanilla, I might not represent her correctly.


For Lekatt:

Mt 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

I wish you'd stop telling people Jesus didnt die for our sins, that he just died because he was religiously and politically incorrect. As shown in the above Scripture, Jesus disagrees with you. It's the very reason He came to this earth. I'm afraid you're going to feel awful someday that you've led many people away from the only way of salvation because you told them it wasn't necessary. I shudder to think of it, and will continue praying for you.

Anyone here that believes the Bible is God's word, please read what it says as compared to what Lekatt says. It doesn't match.

I think you will not listen to anything different because you are terrified of God. Afraid to move one inch from your doctrine, we have been through this many times and it is just interpretation of the Bible that causes the differences between the Christian religions, thousands of them.

Jesus says to love one another, to not judge others, to mind your own business, to help everyone. This is the part of the Bible estranged from Christian thought in churches today. You can not tell others they are going to hell and at the same time not judge them.

Please don't shudder or fear for me, I know that is a ploy designed to induce fear, I have been in God's presence and seen, felt, and understood His eternal love for me and everyone else on this planet earth. I have no, repeat, no, fear of God

God turns no one away, all can go to Him in peace and love.

After all, it may be you who discovers the falseness of your preaching.

Honor God at all times by honoring His children, the only appropriate emotion in the presense of God is awe.
Unless you have been there you don't really know just how awesome this can be. You will never forget it.

Love

[vanilla]

Originally posted by lekatt
I think you will not listen to anything different because you are terrified of God. You can not tell others they are going to hell and at the same time not judge them.

I have no fear of God.

God turns no one away, all can go to Him in peace and love.

After all, it may be you who discovers the falseness of your preaching.

in the presense of God is awe.
Unless you have been there

She is not terrified of God,she lovesHim.
You are a liar.

The word of God says "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom".

She is preaching truth, your "experience"is false.

She has been in the presence of the Lord,do you have proof she hasn't?

God does turn some away, unless you have a different word of God,which you don't.

Truth, vanilla

[lekatt]

Originally posted by IWLN
Thanks lekatt for clarifying that. I still have some left over phantom Christian superstition/angst, that makes it hard to actually deny the Christian's message of Christ as the messiah. I can't quite say it in a complete sentence yet. :(

Understandable. The fear of God is pressed hard into our young impressionable minds. Even after seeing the insanity of fearing God, it was a while before the feelings left. That's why I recommend choosing love in all things. Focus on learning to love.


Love

[lekatt]

Originally posted by vanilla
She is not terrified of God,she lovesHim.
You are a liar.

The word of God says "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom".

She is preaching truth, your "experience"is false.

She has been in the presence of the Lord,do you have proof she hasn't?

God does turn some away, unless you have a different word of God,which you don't.

Truth, vanilla

The Bible was not written by God. It was written by men, some 44 of them more or less, who generally didn't agree with one another about God. Jesus said the "Kingdom of God lies within you." All you need to know about life, you have within you. If you don't look in the right place, you will never find God.

Yes, and I don't think you are supposed to call people names.

God is Love.

[vanilla]

The Bible was dictated by God.

You lied.
You said something about lynn that you cannot prove is true.
Its your OPINION.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
The Bible was dictated by God.
You lied.
You said something about lynn that you cannot prove is true.
Its your OPINION. This doesn't do any good. Let lynn defend herself if she wants to. lynn said that lekatt was leading people away from G-d. That is lynn's opinion. Since none of us can prove to one another that what we say is true, opinion is all we have. Don't let it upset you or reduce you to name calling.:(

[vanilla]

What he said was not provably true.
It was an opinion;wasn't stated as such.
He doesn't want to hear what we have to say,the Bible is the word of God.
Jesus died for our sins.
Simple,if you ask me.
IMHO.
:)

[vive ut vivas]

Satan, Santa, God, gods, toothfairies, things that go bump in the night or rap at seances - all the same kind of fakerery to play with or mess with the gullible.

[vanilla]

Originally posted by vive ut vivas
or rap at seances - all the same kind of fakerery to play with or mess with the gullible.

Whats wrong with rapping at a seance?
;)

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
What he said was not provably true.
It was an opinion;wasn't stated as such.
He doesn't want to hear what we have to say,the Bible is the word of God.
Jesus died for our sins.
Simple,if you ask me.
IMHO.
:) It's not simple. If you're going by the Bible, there's "proof" in the OT that Jesus was not the messiah and in the NT, it says he was. It's understandable that people would not agree on this. lekatt had a personal experience with G-d and I actually did too. You're saying that lynn has been in the presence of G-d, but that lekatt's experience is false. I don't understand how you can know that. What I know is it changes you and those changes are obvious by how you treat those that G-d loves. I would believe lekatt by the love in his words, rather than lynn with all the judgment in hers. That's my opinion, only from what G-d and life have taught me.

vive ut vivas Thanks for dropping by.:rolleyes:

[IWLN]

Originally posted by lekatt
Understandable. The fear of God is pressed hard into our young impressionable minds. Even after seeing the insanity of fearing God, it was a while before the feelings left. That's why I recommend choosing love in all things. Focus on learning to love.I don't have any fear of G-d at all. How could I? But the enormous love and respect I have makes me want to always be sure I'm speaking the truth. Love :)

[lynn73]

Originally posted by vanilla
Yes, lynn73 you spoke for me.
In fact,you said it better than I.
:o

Jesus did fill the requirements of the Messaih.
He will return and be King over all the Earth and Jerusalem; His people.
Thats in the bible too.
Let lynn look it up! (My bible is not with me right now)

I'm at work right now so afraid I don't have a lot of time to look things up. Why doesn't Jesus qualify to be the Messiah? I think maybe it's because the Jews expected Him to come the first time the way He's going to come the second time. They wanted someone to come and conquer the Romans and deliver them from their hard rule and that's what they expected so many of them didn't recognize him but many did. The first believers were Jews, you know. But sin had to be taken care of first. The blood of bulls and goats that the Jews were sacrificing could only cover the sin and they had to keep doing it over and over. The sacrifice of Jesus took care of it once and for all. Let's see I seem to remember a Scripture saying "your King will come to you meek and lowly, riding upon an ass." I don't have time to look it up. There are clues in the Old Testament, I think, alluding to Jesus' suffering on the cross. Read Psalm 22, I beleive it is and Isaiah 53. I think I got that right. He was and is the Messiah, most of them simply didn't recognize him or understand the OT Scriptures about him, they were looking for a conquerer, a Lion not a Lamb.

Anyway, I'm out of time. I will never agree with Lekatt that God isn't the Author of the Bible. Of course, that's my opinion and I know everyone doesn't share it nor can I or vanilla prove it to anyone. Check out the link in my sig line, that may help clarify where I'm coming from even if you don't agree with it.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by lynn73
There are clues in the Old Testament, I think, alluding to Jesus' suffering on the cross. Read Psalm 22, I beleive it is and Isaiah 53. I think I got that right. He was and is the Messiah, most of them simply didn't recognize him or understand the OT Scriptures about him, they were looking for a conquerer, a Lion not a Lamb.Thanks lynn for the references. I've been reading and comparing all day. I can see why you think what you do and I can also see why the Jewish faith has their interpretation. No matter what the answer is, I still have a tough time with how many people don't stand a chance if Christianity is correct. Anyway, I'll read more and at least try to understand where you're coming from. I will admit that a lot of my thinking and feeling comes from my heart, not my head. But I continue to believe that's the way G-d intended us to be.

[Tangent]

Originally posted by ImNotMad2
Just curious, lekatt, if you were to make up a religion, what would it be?

Originally posted by IWLN
I think we should consult with G-d on the next one and quit making up our own.

Originally posted by lekatt
No chance at all of me making up another religion. They tend to become self serving and miss the mark altogether.

Originally posted by lekatt
Spiritual law is you will get back what you put out. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction... All of us are connected at our inner source of love... All you need to know about life, you have within you. If you don't look in the right place, you will never find God.

No chance at all of you making up another religion? In a way, isn't that exactly what you're doing, lekatt?

You act as though you have all the answers and you tell everyone that disagrees with you that they are wrong. This is what all religions do.

Do you all realize that as confident and secure and "enlightened" as you feel about your beliefs, everyone else is just as certain about their own religions? That even among followers of a specific religion, there are often wildly varying interpretations of the "truth?"

As a result, many people are choosing to define their religious beliefs in more and more general terms. Why try to defend improbable religious histories and questionable behavioral laws when you can just do away with all that and simply say "God is love and love is everything?" Forget all that stuff about Moses, Jesus, Allah, Muhammed, Vishnu, whomever. Lekatt is a man ahead of his time--at some point in the future all churches may become desperately minimalist just to retain their membership.

Basically, none of us know exactly how we got here or why we are here or if there even is a why. And people fear the unknown. Religion and the vague "spirituality" preached by some of you here are a response to this fear.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by Tangent
No chance at all of you making up another religion? In a way, isn't that exactly what you're doing, lekatt?
You act as though you have all the answers and you tell everyone that disagrees with you that they are wrong. This is what all religions do.
Do you all realize that as confident and secure and "enlightened" as you feel about your beliefs, everyone else is just as certain about their own religions? That even among followers of a specific religion, there are often wildly varying interpretations of the "truth?"
As a result, many people are choosing to define their religious beliefs in more and more general terms. Why try to defend improbable religious histories and questionable behavioral laws when you can just do away with all that and simply say "God is love and love is everything?" Forget all that stuff about Moses, Jesus, Allah, Muhammed, Vishnu, whomever. Lekatt is a man ahead of his time--at some point in the future all churches may become desperately minimalist just to retain their membership.
Basically, none of us know exactly how we got here or why we are here or if there even is a why. And people fear the unknown. Religion and the vague "spirituality" preached by some of you here are a response to this fear. I am in no way trying to be rude, but what was your point? Since you originally addressed lekatt, but then "you all", not sure what you're getting at. I'm not certain about any religion, only about G-d. Was this just a statement you wanted to get off you chest or did you want to debate some point in particular? :)

[lynn73]

You're welcome. :) IWLN.

[lynn73]

The only way you can state that "Jesus is the only way," beyond a shadow of a doubt, is to have been there or perhaps received an informational visit from G-d.

I'm not trying to be anything but caring and truthful here so please don't take this the wrong way. There has been a visit of God to this earth. Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, Colossians 2:9. We do have information from God, the Holy Bible and it tells us that Jesus is the only way for everyone to the Father. We believe what it says and care about people so we want to share it. That's why missionaries go to foreign lands with the gospel as Jesus commanded. For many of us, there is "no shadow of a doubt." I realize not everyone agrees with these things and the Bible teaches that not everyone will believe.

Peace and have a great new year!

[IWLN]

Originally posted by lynn73
I'm not trying to be anything but caring and truthful here so please don't take this the wrong way. There has been a visit of God to this earth. Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, Colossians 2:9. We do have information from God, the Holy Bible and it tells us that Jesus is the only way for everyone to the Father. We believe what it says and care about people so we want to share it. That's why missionaries go to foreign lands with the gospel as Jesus commanded. For many of us, there is "no shadow of a doubt." I realize not everyone agrees with these things and the Bible teaches that not everyone will believe.

Peace and have a great new year! You have almost 6 billion people to go and most won't believe that you are not an evil western woman out to try and pervert their faith. Percentage wise, you will fail. Still seems like a pretty lousy plan, for such a powerful, loving G-d. There is no shadow of a doubt for me as far as my faith in G-d is concerned. My complete faith in the Bible is another matter. Looking at all of what was going on back in Jesus' time and even evaluating whether man's purpose, rather than G-d's was the basis of the NT is important. Blindly believing or taking for granted that this text is the infallible work of G-d is not knowledge, only belief. Since the message of Jesus doesn't appear to be an equal message of love and opportunity, I have to question it. I don't really know why I never did before.

Knowing someone, especially a former Christian is questioning Jesus and what he stood for, is guaranteed to make good Christian's cringe and look for lightening bolts. ;) I do get that. I even feel it at times. Why am I doing it? For me, it needs to be done. It's part of his plan for me or I wouldn't be doing it. I still feel G-d's presence. I can't find the 666 mark on me yet(kidding), so I don't feel like I'm incurring any wrath yet. I have a feeling he'll let me know if I do. :eek: He's always been there for me and always answered my prayers. I've felt him grow silent and withdraw from me at times in my life when I was really screwing up. It's an unmistakable feeling. I'm watching for it. I think it's okay to critically examine your religion and faith. For me, it's forced me to get rid of some things that don't matter or weren't right. I'm looking and praying hard about the rest. I think you have to seek out your own relationship with G-d. The one you get from religion is only where you start building.:) Peace be with you.

[Tangent]

Originally posted by IWLN
I am in no way trying to be rude, but what was your point? Since you originally addressed lekatt, but then "you all", not sure what you're getting at. I'm not certain about any religion, only about G-d. Was this just a statement you wanted to get off you chest or did you want to debate some point in particular? :)

My point is we all hold our own views on religion and the truth is in the eye of the beholder. You say you are "not certain about any religion, only about G-d." Well, you are no more certain about G-d than vanilla or lynn is about God.

It's like I came upon some people arguing what color the invisible unicorn is and I am trying to say, "Uh, hey folks--if it's there, it's invisible. That means you can't see it." Meanwhile you are saying "I can see it--it's pink," while flinging pink paint all around, hoping some of it will stick. And others are screaming, "No, it's blue," as they fling blue paint.

And you're right--I just felt I had to get that off my chest after reading through this thread. I don't spend much time in Great Debates, but I should still know better than to get worked up when I see people pretending to know the nature of God.

Please continue your two-sided debate on whether there is a Christian God or whether G-d is a warm fuzzy. Forgive me for trying to interject a differing opinion on religion. I'll go elsewhere.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by Tangent
My point is we all hold our own views on religion and the truth is in the eye of the beholder. You say you are "not certain about any religion, only about G-d." Well, you are no more certain about G-d than vanilla or lynn is about God.

Please continue your two-sided debate on whether there is a Christian God or whether G-d is a warm fuzzy. Forgive me for trying to interject a differing opinion on religion. I'll go elsewhere. Of course we all have our own views and experiences. That's pretty much the point of debating or discussing them. It would just be a "high-five" if we all agreed. FTR, I don't think G-d is a Christian G-d or a warm fuzzy. I know what he is through my doctrination, perception and experiences. This is GD, the right place if you have a differing opinion. I can't agree that the truth is in the eye of the beholder, but what we believe is. I was not challenging you on your statement. Hey, I even used a smilie. I'm sorry if I offended you.:(

[ImNotMad2]

Originally posted by IWLN
You have almost 6 billion people to go and most won't believe that you are not an evil western woman out to try and pervert their faith. Percentage wise, you will fail. Still seems like a pretty lousy plan, for such a powerful, loving G-d.Jesus recognizes that most will reject him. He himself said:
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:13-14 King James Version.

Blindly believing or taking for granted that this text is the infallible work of G-d is not knowledge, only belief.Indeed, you can believe what the evidence leads you to believe. Or not. The evidence is the knowledge; what you decide after weighing the evidence is your belief.

Since the message of Jesus doesn't appear to be an equal message of love and opportunity, I have to question it.God will reveal the truth to any who want it, and His offer is open to anybody who will receive it:
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matthew 7:7-8 King James Version.
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." Romans 10:12 King James Version.

Knowing someone, especially a former Christian is questioning Jesus and what he stood for, is guaranteed to make good Christian's cringe and look for lightening bolts. I do get that. I even feel it at times. Why am I doing it? For me, it needs to be done.By all means, don't be afraid to question things. There's no reason to "blindly" believe anything. There's plenty of reason to believe what stands on solid evidence. Don't take me wrong here: If you don't know the evidence, then your belief is blind, regardless of what you believe. Also, just because somebody doesn't know the answers to your questions, doesn't mean there are not good answers. Keep searching; the quest for truth is a never-ending process.

I've felt him grow silent and withdraw from me at times in my life when I was really screwing up. It's an unmistakable feeling.Feelings, emotions, and experiences are a notoriously deceptive source for truth:
"There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death." Proverbs 14:12 Revised Standard Version

I think you have to seek out your own relationship with G-d. The one you get from religion is only where you start building.You make an interesting point here. God wants a relationship with you; beyond that, religion is meaningless. Only problem is, because of our sin, we are separated from God. God wants reconciliation, and has provided a way for us to become reconciled to Him. We can come to God, but it must be done His way, not ours.

It's easy to ignore the justice of God; but a God who is love, is a God who is holy, for there would be no love in an unholy being. Without justice, God could not be a holy God; and a holy God cannot allow sin to go unpunished:
"For the wages of sin is death..." Romans 6:23 King James Version.

A murderer cannot become innocent by trying to love his neighbors, no matter how good his intentions become. He is still a murderer, and nobody in their right mind will allow him into their home. Likewise, and person who commits a sin is guilty of sin, and cannot become innocent by anything he does; he is still a sinner.

This is why we can do nothing to satisfy the True Judge, because we are still guilty of sin. God's Justice requires satisfaction; without it, we cannot be reconciled to Him: this is why we need Jesus; this is why Jesus is called the Christ: because his work frees us from the bondage of sin, when we trust him.

"since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith." Romans 3:23-25 Revised Standard Version.

Love; Repentance; Grace

[lynn73]

You explain things well, ImNotMad2.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by ImNotMad2
Jesus recognizes that most will reject him. He himself said:
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:13-14 King James Version.Well you started off with the scripture that I think is some of the most negative, depressing witness there is. How is it okay that Jesus recognizes that most will reject him. Am I the only one that finds that absolutely horrifying? Why would G-d have a plan like that? I have always felt and been sure of his love for us. How is this not a montrous plan?Indeed, you can believe what the evidence leads you to believe. Or not. The evidence is the knowledge; what you decide after weighing the evidence is your belief.I believe the evidence I have received from G-d and used to without much thought believe the Bible. I still believe the OT, but the more I study the NT and the history of it, the harder it is for me to believe it. Why would he let me believe all of this for most of my life and then allow me not to, if it were true?God will reveal the truth to any who want it, and His offer is open to anybody who will receive it:
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matthew 7:7-8 King James Version.
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." Romans 10:12 King James Version.I'm familiar with these Bible verses, but it doesn't help when I'm not sure the message is true anymore. Saying that salvation is open to anyone, sounds good, but I guarantee you if I was raised in the Jewish faith, for example; I wouldn't get the message, because I was raised to believe it was false. I don't know for sure, but I think it's probably rare for a Jew to convert to Christianity.By all means, don't be afraid to question things. There's no reason to "blindly" believe anything. There's plenty of reason to believe what stands on solid evidence. Don't take me wrong here: If you don't know the evidence, then your belief is blind, regardless of what you believe. Also, just because somebody doesn't know the answers to your questions, doesn't mean there are not good answers. Keep searching; the quest for truth is a never-ending process.Not afraid, just cautious. I just can't agree that you have solid evidence. If by some chance the NT was falsified, you have no religion.Feelings, emotions, and experiences are a notoriously deceptive source for truth:
"There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death." Proverbs 14:12 Revised Standard VersionYou are trusting your feelings. That's what faith is. Only someone who's never felt G-d's presence could think there is a way to mistake it for anything else. And experiences with G-d aren't anything but the truth. Pure.You make an interesting point here. God wants a relationship with you; beyond that, religion is meaningless. Only problem is, because of our sin, we are separated from God. God wants reconciliation, and has provided a way for us to become reconciled to Him. We can come to God, but it must be done His way, not ours.Does it ever strike you as odd that G-d created our sin, allowed us to be separated and then gave us a way to make it up to him? I'm not arrogant enough to think I can set the way I come to G-d, but I have enough faith to know he'll provide the way and not let me get lost.It's easy to ignore the justice of God; but a God who is love, is a God who is holy, for there would be no love in an unholy being. Without justice, God could not be a holy God; and a holy God cannot allow sin to go unpunished:
"For the wages of sin is death..." Romans 6:23 King James Version.If I've given the impression that I don't believe in a just G-d or that we shouldn't have to be accountable, that's not true. I expect correction. I have a hard time thinking that Jesus could get us off without us making ammends for our sin. A just G-d would give all mankind an equal chance and I don't see that it is.A murderer cannot become innocent by trying to love his neighbors, no matter how good his intentions become. He is still a murderer, and nobody in their right mind will allow him into their home. Likewise, and person who commits a sin is guilty of sin, and cannot become innocent by anything he does; he is still a sinner.This is an odd concept for me. I get the part that basically G-d's love is the only thing that can wipe the slate clean, I just don't see why the message isn't more about repentence. This event, the crucifixtion is too much like a free pass for the few chosen.This is why we can do nothing to satisfy the True Judge, because we are still guilty of sin. God's Justice requires satisfaction; without it, we cannot be reconciled to Him: this is why we need Jesus; this is why Jesus is called the Christ: because his work frees us from the bondage of sin, when we trust him.

"since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith." Romans 3:23-25 Revised Standard Version.I never used to see this as strange. Odd. Why did G-d need Jesus?

[lynn73]

Originally posted by IWLN
Why did G-d need Jesus?

I don't know if this will help answer that for you or not:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Garden/1799/son.html

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally posted by ImNotMad2
Jesus recognizes that most will reject him. He himself said:
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:13-14 King James Version.
Well, you're misconstruing what Jesus meant by this statement. The "narrow path" does not mean worshipping Jeus it means living a life of love and compassion. Even so, It would be a pretty worthless method of salvation that failed to save the vast majority of mankind, would it not? Why wouldn't God come up with a more effective mechanism? Why does he need any mechanism at all, for that matter. If he wants to save me he can save me. He's omnipotent isn't he? And he's only saving people from himself.
Indeed, you can believe what the evidence leads you to believe. Or not. The evidence is the knowledge; what you decide after weighing the evidence is your belief.
what evidence?
God will reveal the truth to any who want it, and His offer is open to anybody who will receive it:
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matthew 7:7-8 King James Version.
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." Romans 10:12 King James Version.
Right. So in other words, God doesn't care what religion you are.
By all means, don't be afraid to question things. There's no reason to "blindly" believe anything.
Agreed.
There's plenty of reason to believe what stands on solid evidence. Don't take me wrong here: If you don't know the evidence, then your belief is blind, regardless of what you believe.
So let's have some of that "solid evidence." I've never seen any (and the Bible doesn't count, so don't even bother quoting scripture at me. That's a circular argument).
Also, just because somebody doesn't know the answers to your questions, doesn't mean there are not good answers.
I suspect otherwise, but even so, it's absurd to ask someone to go along with a patently inane belief system without giving them solid answers to questions. Critical thought comes first. I have no use for blind belief and I'm not taking anyone's mere word for anything...especially when it comes to a belief system which is not only illogical (and at times empirically falsifiable) but also capricious, malevolent, uncompassionate and unfair.
Keep searching; the quest for truth is a never-ending process.
Agreed.
Feelings, emotions, and experiences are a notoriously deceptive source for truth:
Exactly. That's why it's better to use systematic, empirical methods to search for truth rather than blind belief and reliance on archaic mythologies.
"There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death." Proverbs 14:12 Revised Standard Version
You and lynn should really heed that quotation.
You make an interesting point here. God wants a relationship with you; beyond that, religion is meaningless. Only problem is, because of our sin, we are separated from God. God wants reconciliation, and has provided a way for us to become reconciled to Him. We can come to God, but it must be done His way, not ours.
What "sin?" I'm a good person. I don't kill people or molest children. I give to charity. I volunteer for charitable causes. Why does God hate me so much that he wants to burn me in hell? What kind of a dick would even invent hell?

Also. how did nailing a hippie to a stick pay for my sins? Why does God require a blood sacrifice? What perverse gratification does he receive from such an act? How primative is that?
It's easy to ignore the justice of God; but a God who is love, is a God who is holy, for there would be no love in an unholy being. Without justice, God could not be a holy God; and a holy God cannot allow sin to go unpunished:
"For the wages of sin is death..." Romans 6:23 King James Version.
WHY does "sin" have to be "punished?" For what purpose? What's just about torturing people eternally for such a trivial sin as not being a Christian? How is that loving? This is the most ludicrous part of the fundie worldview, IMO. Why can't God just judge people by their personal character instead of whether or not the happen to latch onto one "correct" theological belief out of thousands, none of which have the slightest bit of empirical support? What kind of crazy, psycho God would operate that way?
A murderer cannot become innocent by trying to love his neighbors, no matter how good his intentions become. He is still a murderer, and nobody in their right mind will allow him into their home. Likewise, and person who commits a sin is guilty of sin, and cannot become innocent by anything he does; he is still a sinner.
So what? What's so horrible about being a sinner?
This is why we can do nothing to satisfy the True Judge,[/b]
What an unbelievable asshole this judge is.
because we are still guilty of sin.
Cite that we are all guilty of sin? :p

You know that's really just an expression faith, don't you. It's not like there's a scientific way to determine whether everyone is guilty of sin, and I call bullshit on that assertion. My four year old daughter isn't guilty of any "sin," and neither is my wife as far as I'm concerned. What IS "sin" anyway? What does that word even mean?

More importantly, why does God care if someone has a few petty sins in their past? So what? Are you really saying that anyone who ever does anything remotely "sinful" deserves to be tortured forever? Is not being a Christian a sin? How about the 6 million Jews who died in the holocaust? Are they all burning in Hell now? Is God THAT much of sadistic, hateful sicko?
God's Justice requires satisfaction;
What do you mean by "satisfaction," and how could a perfect being ever be UNsatisfied?
without it, we cannot be reconciled to Him:
Can't God do whatever he wants? Are you saying he's not all powerful?
this is why we need Jesus; this is why Jesus is called the Christ: because his work frees us from the bondage of sin, when we trust him.
Jesus said love God and love your neighbor and you will live. He also said that how you treat your neighbor IS how you treat God. So all you have to do is love your neighbor. I don't need "Christ" for that.
"since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith." Romans 3:23-25 Revised Standard Version.
Theological gibberish rooted in archaic customs of blood sacrifice. It's utterly illogical upon any examination at all. Why does God need a "sacrifice" to save us from himself? Burning people forever is his choice and his choice alone. If he doesn't want to do it he doesn't have to. If he wants to save Hitler he can do it and Hitler can't stop him.

Any God who would devise eternal torture for good people simply for not being Christian is not a God worth any respect or affection. I reject such a God outright because that God is evil. Only human beings could fantasize something as grotesque as an eternal hell. No loving God would invent such a thing.

[vanilla]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic




What kind of a dick would even invent hell?

Also. how did nailing a hippie to a stick pay for my sins? way?





From what I have read, Hell was created for the devil and demons;not people.

WHo you callin a hippie?!
Really,though, Jesus was radical for His time.
It amazes me how EVERY chrisitan I know is a Republican.
I am not in agreement with you on religion,but I am on politics.
One does Not have to be conservative to be christian,though i feel i am the only one.

[vanilla]

Originally posted by ImNotMad2


A murderer cannot become innocent by trying to love his neighbors, no matter how good his intentions become. He is still a murderer, and nobody in their right mind will allow him into their home. Likewise, and person who commits a sin is guilty of sin, and cannot become innocent by anything he does; he is still a sinner.



I don't see where youre going with this.
its my beilef that anyone, even a murderer can become saved and forgiven.
2 of the manson murderers, Charles Watson and Susan Atkins (I've read their books) got saved.
No one is too far gone to get forgiven.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
I don't see where youre going with this.
its my beilef that anyone, even a murderer can become saved and forgiven.
2 of the manson murderers, Charles Watson and Susan Atkins (I've read their books) got saved.
No one is too far gone to get forgiven. The way I learned it, there are no works you can do and you can't earn forgiveness for sin. G-d gave it freely when he sent Jesus to be sacrificed. It's there for the asking. That I believe is what INM2 was trying to say.

Of course I think that's a load of crap, since a Omnipotent G-d wouldn't have needed to, a just G-d would actually want repentence and service, and a loving G-d would just forgive you. No sacrificing his son involved.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally posted by vanilla
From what I have read, Hell was created for the devil and demons;not people.
You're right that Revelation describes the "lake of fire" as being reserved for Satan and his demons. Other references to "Hell" are mistranslations of Gehenna or Sheol neither of which is an eternal Hell. The idea that sinners go to hell for eternity is built more from Christian tradition (and artistic works like Dante's Inferno or Milton's Paradise Lost) than from the Bible.

Don't tell Lynn that, though. ;)

WHo you callin a hippie?!
Sorry. I don't mean it derisively. that's only my facetious characterization of a guy with long hair who preached a message of peace and love.
Really,though, Jesus was radical for His time.
More so than many people realize even now.
It amazes me how EVERY chrisitan I know is a Republican.
I am not in agreement with you on religion,but I am on politics.
One does Not have to be conservative to be christian,though i feel i am the only one.
You probably know a lot of conservative (fundamentalist) Christians. There are plenty of politically liberal Christians. Bill Clinton is a Southern Baptist. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are ministers. Hillary is (IIRC) a Methodist. Ted Kennedy is Catholic.

I would venture to say that most registered Democrats are Christians but they probably belong to more liberal denominations than what you're familiar with.

Actually, I think I could make a pretty good argument that Jesus was a bleeding heart liberal.

[vanilla]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic



Sorry. I don't mean it derisively. that's only my facetious characterization of a guy with long hair who preached a message of peace and love.





That would be Libertarian .
:)
It was not taken derisivley,I am a hippie/yippie myself!

Yes,I've onlybelonged to fundie churches,so..all pubbies.

Isn't there a verse which says those who take the Mark of The Beast will taste the wrath of God forever?
That would e people.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
Isn't there a verse which says those who take the Mark of The Beast will taste the wrath of God forever?
That would e people.Revelations was IMHO the first bad acid trip. Here's the best cite (http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/tattoo.htm) I could find. I hope the mark of the beast isn't a purple rose.:eek:

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Isn't there a verse which says those who take the Mark of The Beast will taste the wrath of God forever?
That would be people.
(Rev14:9-11)
9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

In its historical context this is a warning to Christians to keep the faith and not show loyalty to Rome but it does indeed seem to constitute a threat of something like Hell for certain peopel.

It should be noted, though, that the Greek word translated as "forever" (anaiwn) does not have that precise connotation in Greek. It really just indicates an a very long (and indefinite) time but it does carry the supposition of an ending. It might be better translated as something like an "eon" or "ages and ages." A long tome but not literally forever.

[Tangent]

Originally posted by IWLN
Hey, I even used a smilie. I'm sorry if I offended you.:(

Nah, you were polite enough. I just got myself worked up, but I'm feeling much better now. :)

[IWLN]

Originally posted by Tangent
Nah, you were polite enough. I just got myself worked up, but I'm feeling much better now. :) I'm glad. :cool:

[IWLN]

lynn73 or ImNotMad2 or anyone,
All these questions keep coming up. Diogenes raised some good points, questions that I have. It seems like these "debates" never really go anywhere. It is not my intent to debate these issues, but I would like some answers. Bible verses instead of answers do me little good. I can quote it too, but don't see how it answers many of the questions. If either one of you can address any of these questions or statements, it would be very helpful to me. Thank you.


<It would be a pretty worthless method of salvation that failed to save the vast majority of mankind, would it not?

<Why wouldn't G-d come up with a more effective mechanism? Why does he need any mechanism at all, for that matter.

<If he wants to save me he can save me.

<He's omnipotent isn't he?

<And he's only saving people from himself.

<Right. So in other words, G-d doesn't care what religion you are.

<So let's have some of that "solid evidence." I've never seen any (and the Bible doesn't count, so don't even bother quoting scripture at me. That's a circular argument).

<Please explain: "There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death." Proverbs 14:12 Revised Standard Version

<Please explain: Feelings, emotions, and experiences are a notoriously deceptive source for truth:

<What "sin?" I'm a good person. I don't kill people or molest children. I give to charity. I volunteer for charitable causes.

<Why does G-d hate me so much that he wants to burn me in hell?

<What kind of a dick would even invent hell?

<Also. how did nailing a hippie(uh, substitue Jesus) to a stick pay for my sins?

<Why does G-d require a blood sacrifice?

<What perverse gratification does he receive from such an act?

<WHY does "sin" have to be "punished?" For what purpose?

<What's just about torturing people eternally for such a trivial sin as not being a Christian?

<How is that loving?

<Why can't G-d just judge people by their personal character instead of whether or not the happen to latch onto one "correct" theological belief out of thousands, none of which have the slightest bit of empirical support?

<What kind of crazy, psycho G-d would operate that way?

<So what? What's so horrible about being a sinner?

<Cite that we are all guilty of sin?

<What IS "sin" anyway? What does that word even mean?

<More importantly, why does G-d care if someone has a few petty sins in their past?

< Are you really saying that anyone who ever does anything remotely "sinful" deserves to be tortured forever?

<Is not being a Christian a sin?

<How about the 6 million Jews who died in the holocaust? Are they all burning in Hell now?

<What do you mean by "satisfaction," and how could a perfect being ever be UNsatisfied?

<Can't God do whatever he wants? Are you saying he's not all powerful?

<Jesus said love G-d and love your neighbor and you will live. He also said that how you treat your neighbor IS how you treat G-d. So all you have to do is love your neighbor. I don't need "Christ" for that.

<Why does G-d need a "sacrifice" to save us from himself? Burning people forever is his choice and his choice alone. If he doesn't want to do it he doesn't have to. If he wants to save Hitler he can do it and Hitler can't stop him.

<Only human beings could fantasize something as grotesque as an eternal hell. No loving G-d would invent such a thing.

[lynn73]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
What "sin?" I'm a good person. I don't kill people or molest children. I give to charity. I volunteer for charitable causes. Why does God hate me so much that he wants to burn me in hell? What kind of a dick would even invent hell?

This verse immediately came to mind when you started telling us how good you are:

Luke 18:9-14
9Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

You can never be good enough because in God's eyes all our righteousness is as filthy rags in his sight, Isaiah 64:6 We need the righteousness of Christ applied to us and that comes only with belief and acceptance of Him and what He did for us on the cross. We can't be and never will be good or righteous enough for Heaven on our own.

[lynn73]

I wish I could answer every question you come up with to your satisfaction, ILWN, but even if I did, you'd probably just keep coming up with more. As idiotic as this may sound to some people here, I've been praying for you and will continue to do so.

Peace.

[lynn73]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
You're right that Revelation describes the "lake of fire" as being reserved for Satan and his demons. Other references to "Hell" are mistranslations of Gehenna or Sheol neither of which is an eternal Hell. The idea that sinners go to hell for eternity is built more from Christian tradition (and artistic works like Dante's Inferno or Milton's Paradise Lost) than from the Bible.

Don't tell Lynn that, though. ;)


Re 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

While hell was original created for the devil and his angels, where else would those humans go who've done the same thing in rejecting God? While God didn't make any provision for the restoration and salvation of fallen angels, He has for us. But we have to accept it. There's enough Scripture about it to show that humans will be there, as well as fallen angels.

[lynn73]

Diogenes, God doesn't hate you. He loved you so much that He sent Christ to die a horrible death so you could have the possibility of eternal life. I've heard it said this way:

Question to Jesus: How much do you love me?

Jesus: I love you this much, and He stretched out His arms and died.

That's love, my friend, not hate. The gift is there for you, but if you choose to reject it, then you don't have the benefit of it, it's not yours. Kind of like if you leave a wrapped Christmas present under your tree and never open it. I know that I can't answer all of your questions to your satisfaction but God is who He is. I know you don't believe the Bible so you're pretty much not going to listen or believe anything it says. I will continue praying for you as God directs.

Peace.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by lynn73
I wish I could answer every question you come up with to your satisfaction, ILWN, but even if I did, you'd probably just keep coming up with more. As idiotic as this may sound to some people here, I've been praying for you and will continue to do so.

Peace. No lynn, it doesn't sound idiotic. I've been praying for you too. ;) I was pretty sure you wouldn't answer my questions, as no Christian ever really does. I do know all of the standard answers. I was hoping you would give some thought to how limited you have created your G-d to be.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by ImNotMad2
Jesus recognizes that most will reject him. He himself said:
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:13-14 King James Version.This is one of my pet peeve with the Christian message and I didn't really point a couple of things out before, so I will now. This verses are taken out of context and their meaning changes considerably. This is not about accepting Jesus. Matthew 7:12, the verse directly before this is the Golden Rule.12 "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.The entire chapter is about not judging other men and about asking G-d for what you need. It's about taking the right path here and the difficulty of "staying on the straight and narrow". When Jesus talks about us "hearing these words of MINE", he is talking about his G-d, not himself. It talks about knowing a man by his fruits(works) and that just because you claim to know G-d doesn't mean he knows you. It's about doing G-d's will. Jesus, the prophet, was telling people how to live and how to worship G-d, not himself. The narrow gate is not about heaven or hell, it's about love and sacrifice. Ours. It does not mean heaven will be sparsely populated.:rolleyes:

[lynn73]

Well, I didn't create my God. He existed before anything else did and created all things. And yes, my knowledge is limited to what He's revealed of Himself in His word plus my relationship with Him through Christ. And since I believe that the Bible is His word, I believe He won't contradict Himself if you happen to ask why I don't believe or accept any idea about Him that comes along. He is limited Himself in some things because of His very nature and persnality. For instance, He can't lie.

Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Of course, if you don't accept the Bible as authoritative, what it says isn't going to mean anything to you.

What we can know about God is what He chooses to reveal about Himself. Apart from that, we don't know anything:

http://www.nbible.org/bible/bible_answer.cfm?Q_Number=53&Course_ID=5

[lynn73]

The narrow gate is not about heaven or hell, it's about love and sacrifice. Ours. It does not mean heaven will be sparsely populated.

Fraid I have to agree with I'mNotMad2 on that.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally posted by lynn73
Diogenes, God doesn't hate you. He loved you so much that He sent Christ to die a horrible death so you could have the possibility of eternal life. I've heard it said this way:

Question to Jesus: How much do you love me?

Jesus: I love you this much, and He stretched out His arms and died.

That's love, my friend, not hate. The gift is there for you, but if you choose to reject it, then you don't have the benefit of it, it's not yours. Kind of like if you leave a wrapped Christmas present under your tree and never open it. I know that I can't answer all of your questions to your satisfaction but God is who He is. I know you don't believe the Bible so you're pretty much not going to listen or believe anything it says. I will continue praying for you as God directs.

Peace.
This doesn't really answer any of my questions and it isn't a loving theology. Putting aside the logical questions about the need for a sacrifice, it turns salvation into a guessing game. guess which belief is the correct one and you go to Heaven, guess wrong and it's off to the pit.

Oh...and there will be no clues from God about which is correct. No physical evidence, no way to determine anything from empirical exploration, no mathematical equation, no logical steps, no way at all to arrive at the correct belief except for sheer, blind chance. God might as well just ask us what number he's thinking of between one and a billion. It doesn't even matter what kind of person you are. Guess right, you're in, guess wrong, you burn.

If you're a kind, loving Jew, too bad!. If you're a peaceful Buddhist monk, you burn! If you're a serial killer who gets "saved" in prison, congratulations, you're in! (and if the victims of that serial killer guessed wrong, they burn.

Can't you see how capricious this is, how utterly irrational, unjust and mean?

I also don't understand why righteousness wouldn't be good enough for God. Why isn't it good enough to be a good person? WHY would a loving God require perfection in a creature that HE CREATED TO BE IMPERFECT?

[IWLN]

Originally posted by lynn73
Well, I didn't create my God. He existed before anything else did and created all things. And yes, my knowledge is limited to what He's revealed of Himself in His word plus my relationship with Him through Christ. And since I believe that the Bible is His word, I believe He won't contradict Himself if you happen to ask why I don't believe or accept any idea about Him that comes along. He is limited Himself in some things because of His very nature and persnality. For instance, He can't lie.Yes, any old idea that comes along, like he's loving, fair and actually wants us to succeed. What could I have been thinking? Hell was not a default judgment before Jesus came along. You led a good life, worshipped G-d, did as he commanded and were promised salvation. Jesus came along and it's suddenly not good enough?
Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;I certainly agree with this one. G-d doesn't lie about man. Man lies about G-d. Although I certainly don't think it's intentional, just blind.What we can know about God is what He chooses to reveal about Himself. Apart from that, we don't know anything:That's true, we only have what G-d reveals. This is often clouded by what man refuses to see. Do you believe that he's only revealed himself to Christians and you are the only ones who have the message right? Did you luck out, or what!!

[IWLN]

Originally posted by lynn73
Fraid I have to agree with I'mNotMad2 on that. You did read the whole chapter? I don't even see this one as some sort of matter needing interpretation. No hidden message. It's very clear. When you read the Bible, are you looking for Jesus in every scripture or looking for G-d's word? I don't understand how it could sound so different to two people? It is indeed "a mystery".:)

[vanilla]

I could've sworn there was a verse which claims that God saves who he will.
In other words, He decideds, Yep-I'll let this person understand about me and salvation.
Why some and not others?
I do not know.
Unless its just so obvious to unbelievers and they are just not seeing it.
Either way, I dont claim to know God's thoughts (well,some..)

What about "Mercy triumphs over judgment"?
How much mercy do sinners get if they are merciful?

[ImNotMad2]

Originally posted by IWLN
How is this not a montrous plan?Most religions in the world claim exclusivity, yet each contradict the other in some way that makes them incompatible. Only a relativistic view can claim that all religions essentially believe in the same God, with all the various requirements for salvation being equally valid. I haven't gotten the impression that you are a relativist. Am I wrong? Do you truely think that contradictory requrements for salvation can be equally valid?
...but I guarantee you if I was raised in the Jewish faith, for example; I wouldn't get the message, because I was raised to believe it was false. I don't know for sure, but I think it's probably rare for a Jew to convert to Christianity.I understand your thinking here. I often wonder if I were raised in the home of a different belief, if I would hold fast to those beliefs. But I discover that many people raised in conservative evangelical Christian homes, going to church every Sunday, etc. don't believe the way they were raised. Also, there are many Jewish people who do believe that Jesus is their Messiah and trust him as their Savior and Lord.
I just can't agree that you have solid evidence. If by some chance the NT was falsified, you have no religion.Falsified in what way? The authors of the New Testament documents had nothing to gain by writing the things they did--except persecution and execution. The manuscript evidence we have today indicate that the New Testament documents we have today are accurate to the originals to over 99% certainty.
You are trusting your feelings. That's what faith is. Only someone who's never felt G-d's presence could think there is a way to mistake it for anything else. And experiences with G-d aren't anything but the truth. Pure.There is a difference between faith, and blind faith. Because God has kept the promises he made in the past, I know that He will keep the promises He makes now. That's faith: that I believe God will do what He has not yet done, based on the evidence of what he has already done. "Blind" faith is just stupid, because there is much in this world that tries to lead us the wrong way. Be warned: there are "false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light" 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 NIV. Not everything called "Christian" is of Christ, and not everything that "feels" like God is of God.
Does it ever strike you as odd that G-d created our sin, allowed us to be separated and then gave us a way to make it up to him?God did not create sin; he did create the potential for sin. Sin was not actualized until Adam disobeyed God. Yes, God did know that man would fall; but consider this: people have children to love them, and hope that their children will return their love. They know ahead of time that there will be times when children will disobey, show rebellious attitudes, etc. causing grief for the parent; but they have the kids anyway, because the desire for the relationship is greater than the pain caused when they rebel.
I have a hard time thinking that Jesus could get us off without us making ammends for our sin. A just G-d would give all mankind an equal chance and I don't see that it is.Jesus expects us to repent of our sins and to trust him to keep his promise, that he will extend grace--getting good things we don't deserve--and forgive us, so that we can stand before God blameless. But there is still atonement for our sins; you can look at it like this: Jesus is our scapegoat.
I get the part that basically G-d's love is the only thing that can wipe the slate clean, I just don't see why the message isn't more about repentence. This event, the crucifixtion is too much like a free pass for the few chosen. Actually, it's God's grace that wipes the slate clean; because of God's love for us, he offers us grace; we can choose to accept it or to reject it. But I see your point: that a person can claim to believe yet not repent? A person's actions are a direct reflection of what he believes (Would you agree?). A person who does not repent; a person who does not obey God's commands, yet claims to believe? The evidence would clearly be against him; but God knows his mind: a person may be able to deceive another man, but a person thinking to deceive God is only deceiving himself.

[lynn73]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic

I also don't understand why righteousness wouldn't be good enough for God. Why isn't it good enough to be a good person? WHY would a loving God require perfection in a creature that HE CREATED TO BE IMPERFECT?

I guess I don't know what to tell you except the Bible says that all our righteousness (any goodness we think we have, good deeds, good life, etc.) is like filthy rags in His sight. We can't be good enough. We would have to live a perfect, sinless, life in thought, word, and deed and how many of us can do that? Jesus is the only sinless Person to walk this earth. And He was God in the flesh, Colossians 2:9. How long do you think heaven would be heaven if God let sin in? Sin has to go and it's only through Christ that we can get rid of it, not have it accounted to us. The Bible also says there is none good, no, not one. In God's sight not a one of us are good, despite what we may think about our goodness. That's what God says.

Also, I don't think God created us to be imperfect. We messed that up ourselves. Adam and Eve were created perfect, but they disobeyed God and sin entered the human race.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally posted by ImNotMad2
Most religions in the world claim exclusivity, yet each contradict the other in some way that makes them incompatible. Only a relativistic view can claim that all religions essentially believe in the same God, with all the various requirements for salvation being equally valid. I haven't gotten the impression that you are a relativist. Am I wrong? Do you truely think that contradictory requrements for salvation can be equally valid?
You're wrong in your first assertion that all religions claim exclusivity, at least as it pertains to "salvation" (which is not even a universal goal of all religions).

Christianity is, in fact, the only major religion which teaches that people of other rewligions can't be "saved" or enlightned or whatever. In judaism and in islam, God judges people on their actions and their personal righteousness. Jews don't think that you have to be Jewish to go to Heaven and Muslims don't believe you have to be Muslim.

If religion is looked at as all just diffrent metaphorical strategies for communing with God then there is no problem. It's all just diffrent fingers pointing at the same moon.
Jewish people who do believe that Jesus is their Messiah and trust him as their Savior and Lord.
No, there are Jewish people who convert to Christianity, at which time they are no longer religiously Jewish. Citing Jewish conversion to Christianity is missing the point that you think God burns Jews in hell.
Falsified in what way? The authors of the New Testament documents had nothing to gain by writing the things they did--except persecution and execution. The manuscript evidence we have today indicate that the New Testament documents we have today are accurate to the originals to over 99% certainty.
What "documents" are you talking about and what "manuscripts" are you comparing them to?

Anyway, the NT is a compilation of religious and mythological statements not a factual history. What the authors had to "gain" was more adherents to their religion and more political power. Verifiable facts did not have much importance back then.
There is a difference between faith, and blind faith.
And the difference is what? Faith, by definition, is belief without knowledge.
Because God has kept the promises he made in the past, I know that He will keep the promises He makes now.
Cite that "God" made any promises in the past? Cite that he kept them? What are you talking about ?
That's faith:
That's blind faith.
that I believe God will do what He has not yet done, based on the evidence of what he has already done.
What "evidence" would that be? I'm still waiting to see exhibit A.
"Blind" faith is just stupid
Sing it, sister.
because there is much in this world that tries to lead us the wrong way. Be warned: there are "false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light" 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 NIV. Not everything called "Christian" is of Christ, and not everything that "feels" like God is of God.
I think fundamentalist Christianity is proof of all that.
God did not create sin; he did create the potential for sin. Sin was not actualized until Adam disobeyed God.
God created sin. God chose to create beings that would sin, therefore God created sin. It was all God's choice.

And what do mean by "Adam" exactly? Do you think there was really an Adam who really ate an apple? If so, how do you reconcile that belief with the reality of evolution? Also, Gensesis says that Adam and Eve did not know good from evil until after they ate the fruit, so that means it couldn't have been a sin because it they could not have known it was wrong. Furthermore, how does one guy eating an apple have anything to do with me? Is "sin" passed down genetically? was I born with it? If so, it's not my fault is it? How can God hold people culpable for something they were born with?
Yes, God did know that man would fall; but consider this: people have children to love them, and hope that their children will return their love. They know ahead of time that there will be times when children will disobey, show rebellious attitudes, etc. causing grief for the parent; but they have the kids anyway, because the desire for the relationship is greater than the pain caused when they rebel.
Nonsense, God wasn't "hoping" for anything, nor could he. He knew precisel;y what would happen and he chose to create precisely the people who would behave precisely as he inteded them to behave?

Who created the serpent? Didn't God know exactly what that serpent would do? Why did he create it then? Saying it's not God's choice is like creating a killer robot and then saying it wsas the robot's choice to kill people.
Jesus expects us to repent of our sins and to trust him to keep his promise, that he will extend grace--getting good things we don't deserve--and forgive us, so that we can stand before God blameless. But there is still atonement for our sins; you can look at it like this: Jesus is our scapegoat.
Scapegoat for WHAT sins? What have most people done that's so horribly unforgivable? You're saying we all desrve to be tortured forever? What a hateful God you worship.

anyway, how does a "scapegoat" pay for my sins? What gratification does god derive from a blood sacrifice?

And why didn't he pick a more effective strategy?
Actually, it's God's grace that wipes the slate clean; because of God's love for us, he offers us grace; we can choose to accept it or to reject it.
peopel accept God's grace in a myriad of other ways than Chrsitianity. Why aren't those other ways good enough? But I see your point: that a person can claim to believe yet not repent?
I would say that people can and do repent without any belief in Chrisitianity or in any God.
A person's actions are a direct reflection of what he believes (Would you agree?).
No. I would say there is very little correlation between religious belief (or lack thereof) and personal behavior. I've certainly seen no evidence of it.
A person who does not repent; a person who does not obey God's commands, yet claims to believe? The evidence would clearly be against him; but God knows his mind: a person may be able to deceive another man, but a person thinking to deceive God is only deceiving himself.
God's "commands" are to love your neighbor as yourself. The rest is commentary.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by ImNotMad2
Most religions in the world claim exclusivity, yet each contradict the other in some way that makes them incompatible. Only a relativistic view can claim that all religions essentially believe in the same God, with all the various requirements for salvation being equally valid. I haven't gotten the impression that you are a relativist. Am I wrong? Do you truely think that contradictory requrements for salvation can be equally valid?
I guess that would make me relativistic, although I'm not familar with the term. Does that make me more hopeless? I have compared religion to a journey to explain my beliefs to people. We are all headed toward the same destination (G-d). To get there we use many different routes and modes of transportation (religion). Although I don't think religion is the only vehicle. A good decent life has as much or more value on the journey. The most important part of the journey is the destination. If G-d had wanted this any different, he would have created it so. There are no requirements for salvation other than to show love to G-d through those that he loves. Even Christianity is valid as long as your works are good. Christianity's message is cruel, but I don't believe the cruelty is intentional. I HATE the exclusitivity of it. In this discussion we are having between the Christian, the lapsed Christian and the agnostic, I find myself agreeing with more of what he's saying than the Christian message. I do love irony, though.:)I understand your thinking here. I often wonder if I were raised in the home of a different belief, if I would hold fast to those beliefs. But I discover that many people raised in conservative evangelical Christian homes, going to church every Sunday, etc. don't believe the way they were raised. Also, there are many Jewish people who do believe that Jesus is their Messiah and trust him as their Savior and Lord.I think it would be much more likely that a Christian could become a Jew. We share a lot of the same beliefs, but Christ is considered somewhat of a blaphemous aberation to the Jewish faith. I have never had a Jew tell me I would go to Hell for my beliefs though. I can honestly say that if I'd been raised differently, I probably wouldn't have questioned it. What made me question Christianity is the concept of a G-d who fails to save most of the world. It's too sad and it contradicts what I know of G-d.
Falsified in what way? The authors of the New Testament documents had nothing to gain by writing the things they did--except persecution and execution. The manuscript evidence we have today indicate that the New Testament documents we have today are accurate to the originals to over 99% certainty.I have only just begun to look at other information and historical events and their affect on the Bible. I'm not really as concerned as I'm sure you think I should be as to the Bible's authenticity. It doesn't change the fact that men wrote it and were subject to all the influences any man is. I believe Jesus existed. As an example only, a teacher. Whether or not the NT is true matters very little to me. If tomorrow it were found to be a hoax, I would still have the same faith, the same relationship with G-d. My religion, whatever that is, is not dependent on a book.There is a difference between faith, and blind faith. Because God has kept the promises he made in the past, I know that He will keep the promises He makes now. That's faith: that I believe God will do what He has not yet done, based on the evidence of what he has already done. "Blind" faith is just stupid, because there is much in this world that tries to lead us the wrong way. Be warned: there are "false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light" 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 NIV. Not everything called "Christian" is of Christ, and not everything that "feels" like God is of God.I have faith in regards to all the details of our existence and continued existnece. I don't have "faith" in G-d's existence. I have experience, personal proof, conviction of his existence. I don't need faith. I know he exists. (Diogenes, don't bust me on that one, I don't have any cites to share with you) To say I believe he exists is too weak for what I feel. I have knowledge. I have lately, frequently been cautioned by Christians to beware of what I "feel". That I could be deceived into thinking what I feel is G-d, when it isn't. Again, I assure you that only G-d really feels like G-d. His presence is unmistakeable and it's only purpose is love. Love is such a lame word, because G-d's love is very different than man's version. If I start suddenly having evil impulses, the urge to eat raw meat or sacrifice small children; I'll re-evaluate.;)God did not create sin; he did create the potential for sin. Sin was not actualized until Adam disobeyed God. Yes, God did know that man would fall; but consider this: people have children to love them, and hope that their children will return their love. They know ahead of time that there will be times when children will disobey, show rebellious attitudes, etc. causing grief for the parent; but they have the kids anyway, because the desire for the relationship is greater than the pain caused when they rebel.G-d did create sin in all it's ugly glory. Not the potential, but sin itself. Sin was a gift. That is one of the big parts missing in Christianity, when sin can be simply removed with words of acceptance of Jesus. Sin and all it's implications are with us so that we can learn and grown. Rebellion and disobedience are part of this wonderful journey we're on. We learn from these things and learn how to rise above them and become more. G-d only feels grief when we fail to grow. I don't want or need a "parent" to get me out of the consequences of my actions. It's in my best interest and my "parent's" for me to take responsibility, to feel remorse, to make amends and above all learn from these things. Sin was a gift of love because G-d wanted us to become all there is to be. Oddly enough, it's one of the aspects of G-d's plan that I think is the most awesome. The freedom to choose and become. Way to go G-d!!Jesus expects us to repent of our sins and to trust him to keep his promise, that he will extend grace--getting good things we don't deserve--and forgive us, so that we can stand before God blameless. But there is still atonement for our sins; you can look at it like this: Jesus is our scapegoat.I don't need one. I am not blameless, but willing to work at whatever it takes to become as good as I can be. Hell as we know it was created by man. Failing G-d simply means we have more learning, work, growing to do, not an eternal ring of fire dance.Actually, it's God's grace that wipes the slate clean; because of God's love for us, he offers us grace; we can choose to accept it or to reject it. But I see your point: that a person can claim to believe yet not repent? A person's actions are a direct reflection of what he believes (Would you agree?). A person who does not repent; a person who does not obey God's commands, yet claims to believe? The evidence would clearly be against him; but God knows his mind: a person may be able to deceive another man, but a person thinking to deceive God is only deceiving himself.I was on a Christian website not too long ago. It made me cry. It was a messageboard and "Christians" were talking about gays. If I had to judge, which thankfully I don't, I would say that a large percentage of those people with their hate-filled, smug opinions are not familar with G-d in spite of their claim to him. They have missed the message. No love or repentance there. I do understand that wearing the title of Christian or any other religion really means nothing without the works, the example.

[lynn73]

Cite that "God" made any promises in the past? Cite that he kept them? What are you talking about?

What are you talking about? They're in the Bible. So is sin.

The Bible dictionary definition of sin can be found at:

http://www.biblelearn.com/s_frame.htm

[lynn73]

We are all headed toward the same destination (G-d). To get there we use many different routes and modes of transportation (religion). Although I don't think religion is the only vehicle.

Ah, but what you're saying isn't what the Bible says. It doesn't teach that there are different routes to God, only one: Jesus Christ. Religion won't get people there either. Religion is man's efforts at trying to be good and please God himself, Christianity is God Himself reaching down to man through Christ. We must go to God His way, not ours.

[lynn73]

Here are a few examples of promises or prophecies fulfilled, Diogenes:

http://www.messiahrevealed.org/genesis.html

http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/israelverses.html

[vanilla]

youre on a roll, lynn.

[lynn73]

:) Hi vanilla.

[vanilla]

The Bible IS God's word,you know.

[lynn73]

Yes, I know it from the bottom of my heart.

[vanilla]

Thats probably a straight line, but I'm sure someone will come up with something.

God didn't write it, but He dictated it, as it were.
He said we could drink tea.
;)

[IWLN]

Originally posted by lynn73
Here are a few examples of promises or prophecies fulfilled, Diogenes:

http://www.messiahrevealed.org/genesis.html

http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/israelverses.html Would you like the cites and scriptures that seem to contradict this. They're just as convincing. This is a good one. (http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-messiah-criteria.html) You should study these too, so you can make informed choices.

[lynn73]

That's interesting, ILWN, but doesn't change what I believe of course just as nothing I put forth changes what you believe. But it's fun to talk about it anyway. Also, all the prophecies aren't fulfilled yet. Some are past, some are future when Christ comes back again.

By the way, Happy New Year.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by lynn73
Ah, but what you're saying isn't what the Bible says. It doesn't teach that there are different routes to God, only one: Jesus Christ. Religion won't get people there either. Religion is man's efforts at trying to be good and please God himself, Christianity is God Himself reaching down to man through Christ. We must go to God His way, not ours.No I'm not quoting the NT. I asked G-d. You should try it.:) You'll never find the right way if you look at things the same way everytime.

[vanilla]

He'sreturning on May 33rd.

(inside joke,lynn)

[IWLN]

Originally posted by lynn73
That's interesting, ILWN, but doesn't change what I believe of course just as nothing I put forth changes what you believe. But it's fun to talk about it anyway. Also, all the prophecies aren't fulfilled yet. Some are past, some are future when Christ comes back again.

By the way, Happy New Year. I used to believe what you believe. Now I know better. It is possible to change when something is wrong. Are you afraid to read the information if it comes from another religion? Knowledge is always good. Can you have a Happy New Year when you believe most of the people now on earth are bound for Hell? I don't get it. But I know you're wrong, so Happy New Year to you to.;)

[lynn73]

:eek: Hmm, now vanilla, you know that we can't know the exact time, duhhh. Just kidding, girl. I know you know that. Tell me that inside joke, pretty please?

Well, ILWN, that's find and good I guess, but how do you determine whether you're hearing from God or a deceiving spirit? Not by what how it make you feel, I hope. There has to be a solid guideline to go by or else we're liable to believe anything. If you're hearing from God, do you think he's going to contradict anything He's said in His word? I myself don't think so. But that's just me, and a lot of other folk also.

[vanilla]

First of all,IWLN, you don't know lynn is wrong.
You think so.

She could be praying tonight for lots of lost people, you don't KNOW that now, do you?

lynn, it was a long thread.
I never even read it so I don't know the answer.
Something, I wish someone would tell me, too.
But its cute cause there IS no May 33rd.

[lynn73]

I guess I thought it was a misprint and you meant May 23. Duhhhhhhh

You got a pm over at you know where.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by lynn73
Well, ILWN, that's find and good I guess, but how do you determine whether you're hearing from God or a deceiving spirit? Not by what how it make you feel, I hope. There has to be a solid guideline to go by or else we're liable to believe anything. If you're hearing from God, do you think he's going to contradict anything He's said in His word? I myself don't think so. But that's just me, and a lot of other folk also.Hey, the atheists only think I'm delusional. You have me possessed by the "evil one"(echo, echo). Bummer. Putting aside the actual visit I had from G-d, which I do agree makes me seem delusional, let's just go with the day to day stuff. Have you ever felt G-d's presence? If so, was there any doubt it was G-d? If you haven't felt his presence, then why not? I have complete faith in G-d that he would not allow one of those nasty evil one's to give me hell.;) His presence is filled with love and in turn makes me filled with gratitude. No huge specific message there. He didn't tell me you were full of **** or anything. Just feeling the magnitude of his love gives me assurance that he's not going to let any of us come to harm.

I don't believe G-d has contradicted anything in his word. Man has though. The WORD really was love. It wasn't literally "I'm Jesus, accept me or be damned!!" You do realize that G-d is a jealous G-d. You're only supposed to worship Him?

[vanilla]

About the OP.
The difference between santa and jesus is no adults believe in santa.

[vanilla]

The word really was love.
isn't that from John 1:1?
In the beginning was the word and the word was the Lord.
Yes?
Jesus IS the WORD.
So...the bible points one to Jesus.
Yes?

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
First of all,IWLN, you don't [B]know lynn is wrong.
You think so.

She could be praying tonight for lots of lost people, you don't KNOW that now, do you?Tell me vanilla, if you were me, would you believe G-d or lynn. Just because I think lynn is wrong, doesn't mean I'm passing any kind of judgment on what kind of person she is. I think praying for people is good, but I think a living witness of a loving G-d is better. But hey, she's praying for me. I can use a little help on that problem I have with my sense of humor and being irreverent.
;) The hippie on a stick still makes me giggle. I know, it was bad. Bad DtC, bad!!!:D

[vanilla]

cannot answer that.
I am not you.
(thank God! KIDDING!)

Maybe she prays and ALSO has a good wtiness by her life.
Eh?

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
The word really was love.
isn't that from John 1:1?
In the beginning was the word and the word was the Lord.
Yes?
Jesus IS the WORD.
So...the bible points one to Jesus.
Yes? Jesus lived the WORD. The WORD was from G-d. It was love.

lynn, Could you expain how Jesus is G-d?

[lynn73]

Yes.

John1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.

John 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

As to Santa, you're right vanilla. Yet the parents keep teaching the child something they know to be a falsehood.

[lynn73]

The above post is in response to vanilla, not IlWN.

[vanilla]

iwln seems to be saying that Jesus is also Love.
True, He loved us enough to forgive our sins.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
cannot answer that.
I am not you.
(thank God! KIDDING!)

Maybe she prays and ALSO has a good wtiness by her life.
Eh? Maybe. Eh? Too many people going to hell on her watch. G-d's will?:eek:

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
iwln seems to be saying that Jesus is also Love.
True, He loved us enough to forgive our sins. From what the NT says of Jesus' teachings, they were all filled with love, acceptance, compassion, forgiveness. Regardless of his rumored relationship to G-d, his message was good.

[vanilla]

rumor?
"I and the Father are one".
-Jesus.

Some rumor.

[lynn73]

Originally posted by IWLN
lynn, Could you expain how Jesus is G-d?

If you mean can I explain how it works so that you'll have complete understanding of of it, no I don't think so because even the Bible calls it a mystery:

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The Bible says there's one God, yet it also says that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God. So we believe in a trinity, one God in three Persons.

Acts 5:1-11
1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

This shows that lying to the Holy Spirit is the same as lying to God.

The first chapter of John clearly shows Jesus' deity. Also, what can say it more clear than Colossians 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Refer to verse 8 if you question whether that's talking about Christ.

There's also 1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus, refer again to John 1:1), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And I also see a picture of the trinity here:

Genesis 1:26a
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness,.....etc.

Compare with first chapter of John where it says "he was in the world and the world was made by him and the world knew him not. Who was in the world? Jesus.

I've heard people say that if Jesus was God then was He talking to Himself when He prayed to the Father? As I said before, I can't explain it all, I can only point to the scriptures that show Jesus was God in the flesh. Only a totally perfect, sinless Person could die for our sins and the only sinless Being in the universe is God.

This may help you with the Trinity:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/t03.html

I'll leave you with Hebrews 1:8 in which God says to the Son:
But unto the Son he saith, THY THRONE, O GOD, IS FOR EVER AND EVER: A SCEPTRE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE SCEPTRE OF THEY KINGDOM.

Remember, it's a mystery. I can't explain it all. But the Bible says that the fulness of the Godhead dwelt in Jesus and that's good enough for me.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
rumor?
"I and the Father are one".
-Jesus.

Some rumor. We're all one in the spirit of G-d's love. I don't think he meant it literally.

[lynn73]

Here's another one:

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/trinity.shtml

I wish you could edit posts on this board!

[vanilla]

Point taken.
One in purpose.

[vanilla]

lynn.
Its generally realized that we should post our sig (if its a link) once in a page of a thread.
You don't have to do it each time.
:)
(check mine out!)

[lynn73]

Hmm, interesting sig. I had no idea we should'nt post our sig line in every post. Sometimes I forget, anyway. Thanks for telling me but I may forget.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by lynn73
Remember, it's a mystery. I can't explain it all. But the Bible says that the fulness of the Godhead dwelt in Jesus and that's good enough for me.I have heard all this. Just checking to see if anyone heard it different. Thought not. It's a mystery is just like saying, "I know this doesn't make a damn bit of sense, but it's all we have, so deal with it." I can go with "one in purpose", but that includes many of us, not just Jesus.

So who's getting drunk tonight? No? Kidding! Sort of. They didn't say anything bad about Long Island Ice Teas in the Bible, did they?:D

[vanilla]

Whats in a long island iced tea?
I don't get drunk anymore (I was paid to do so when I was working)
I like one drink (never beer) once in a while.
Something like schnapps or the drink called blow job (no offense lynn)


And the bible says anything you want to eat or drink is okay. Its what comes out of the heart thats a sin, not what you put in.

Me,I'm having sparkling white grape juice.

[lynn73]

No getting drunk here. But I do need to get off this computer. Been on here too long. Happy New Year and goodnight everyone.

Hmm, don't think I've read anything about Long Island Ice Teas in the Bible.

[vanilla]

long island wasn't created yet!
;)

[lekatt]

Originally posted by vanilla
The word really was love.
isn't that from John 1:1?
In the beginning was the word and the word was the Lord.
Yes?
Jesus IS the WORD.
So...the bible points one to Jesus.
Yes?

I like this. What did Jesus teach? Love. He taught we should not judge others lest we be judged. He taught love one another. If you believe what Jesus stood for you can't go around condemning people to hell as if you were their judge which you are not.

Oh yes, Jesus said "I judge no man."

http://www.jesusreligion.com/

Love

[vanilla]

Look!
Another person has joined us on page 5.
You just missed lynn.

Lest ye be judged.
Who would you be judged by then,if you were judgmental?
And what would the judgment be?

[IWLN]

Originally posted by vanilla
Look!
Another person has joined us on page 5.
You just missed lynn.

Lest ye be judged.
Who would you be judged by then,if you were judgmental?
And what would the judgment be? Well funny you should ask. This is covered in the same chapter as that "narrow gate" Christians are so fond of.:)

Matthew 7


Judging Others

1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I think I already posted the parts of Scripture that say that God is Love. That whoever loves knows God and that whover does not love does not know God.

If you believe that Jesus was God, then Jesus was Love becaues GOD is Love.

The Word was what Jesus taught. Jesus was only the vehicle. The Word is Love.

If you identify Christ as identical to Love then then Christianity works just beautifully. The way to God is through Love not through dogma.

This is the message of every great religion. When you degrade this message to the worship of the messenger you are worshipping an idol.

Muslims understand this quite well. They never deified their prophet.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally posted by lynn73
Here are a few examples of promises or prophecies fulfilled, Diogenes:

http://www.messiahrevealed.org/genesis.html

http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/israelverses.html
Don't be lazy, Lynn. You can do better than posting to Christian websites. I can't be expected to post a line by line rebuttal of everything stated on another website.

Suffice it to say that most of what is cited on those pages does not represent Messianic prophesy and it certainly does not refer to Jesus.

The OT expectations of the Messiah were very specific and they were not met by Jesus.

What websites like yours tend to do is cherry pick certain verses or fragments of verses out of context and try to find specious cpmparisons to Jesus. The first example cited on your first link is a perfect example. God told the serpent that he would "bruise the heel of man" and hey, Jesus got nails through his heels.

Never mind that Genesis was not referring to the Messiah but to "men" in general.

Never mind that the serpent wasn't Satan.

Never mind that Satan had nothing to do with the crucifixion (which would contradict the whole idea that it was a voluntary action by Jesus).

Most of the other stuff cited is just as lame as this.

Be more specific. Don't link to websites. Show me a specific passage which you think is a prophesy of Jesus and show me how Jesus fulfilled it.

While you're at it, please explain why (with the exception of being Jewish) Jesus did not fulfill a single explicit OT expectation for the Messiah.

Where's that temple in Jerusalem?

Where's that world peace?

Why wasn't Jesus a descendent of David?

Did you know that the OT say that the Messiah will make the whole world monotheistic (actually Jewish, to be exact)? When is that going to happen?


Bring it on. Show me your best cite. Give me an example of something that you think is a dead solid prediction of Jesus and I'll show you why you're wrong.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Did you know that the OT say that the Messiah will make the whole world monotheistic (actually Jewish, to be exact)? When is that going to happen?


Bring it on. Show me your best cite. Give me an example of something that you think is a dead solid prediction of Jesus and I'll show you why you're wrong.Psalms 22 is actually pretty impressive as far as appearing like it's talking about Jesus. It's only when you dig deep and find out the translation of some of the words aren't quite as literal as one would hope. And ignore a few other things. Reading it looking for comparisons to Jesus works very well on the surface.

So we all get to be Jews. I like that. That would actually be my first choice if I had to pick a religion now. Plus it'll be fun to watch the Christians squirm.;j

[ImNotMad2]

Originally posted by IWLN
Well funny you should ask. This is covered in the same chapter as that "narrow gate" Christians are so fond of.:) Jesus: "'I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.'" (John 10:9)

Jesus: "'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'" (John 14:5-6).

Peter: "'…Jesus Christ of Nazareth….Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.'" (Acts 4:10-12).

Jesus: "'For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son'" (John 3:17-18).

Perhaps looking at the context of the whole New Testament, not just the chapter alone, makes the verses in Matthew even more clear.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

You're right about Psalm 22. Particularly verse 16 which often mistranslates "shriveled" hands as being "pierced."

Maybe you should sit in on some UU services. UU is basically designed for people who don't know what they are, exactly but who know they are something.

If nothing else it has the community feeling and trappings of a church without the narrow doctrine. You don't even have to believe in God. You hear a lot of ideas and spiritual conversation without being beat on the head with a MESSAGE.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally posted by ImNotMad2
Jesus: "'I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.'" (John 10:9)

Jesus: "'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'" (John 14:5-6).

Peter: "'…Jesus Christ of Nazareth….Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.'" (Acts 4:10-12).

Jesus: "'For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son'" (John 3:17-18).

Perhaps looking at the context of the whole New Testament, not just the chapter alone, makes the verses in Matthew even more clear.
Change the word "Jesus" to "Love" in all those verses and you have yourself a workable theology.

[ImNotMad2]

Originally posted by IWLN
I guess that would make me relativistic, although I'm not familar with the term.Relativism says there is no absolute truth, that truth is subjective.
Even Christianity is valid as long as your works are good.This statement contradicts itself, considering that true Christianity is based on salvation by grace through faith, not by works. Also considering that Jesus himself said he is the only way to God creates a contradiction in logic if you claim that Jesus is a way rather than the way.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Jesus is Love. LOVE is the way.

And faith IS a work.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by ImNotMad2
Relativism says there is no absolute truth, that truth is subjective.
This statement contradicts itself, considering that true Christianity is based on salvation by grace through faith, not by works. Also considering that Jesus himself said he is the only way to God creates a contradiction in logic if you claim that Jesus is a way rather than the way. Okay then being a relativist might depend on whether you're using it to define religion or G-d. There is an abosolute truth when it comes to G-d, but not to religion. Religion is a faulty, but heartfelt expression of G-d. I don't think the doctrine matters at all, unless it is used as a hurtful weapon to exclude other religions. To me the Budhist is expressing the same thing as you are. Even the atheist who is loving his neighbor is on the same journey you are. You limit G-d when you don't trust him to know what is in each man's heart. That's all he cares about. Jesus isn't a way or the way. His message was about the way, though. This is not some sort of cop out or easy way I've decided to take. Believe me, nothing about it has been easy. I have read, thought and prayed non-stop for quite a while now. I stopped consulting the Christian church and started asking G-d for answers. It works well for me. G-d has no religious bias.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Maybe you should sit in on some UU services. UU is basically designed for people who don't know what they are, exactly but who know they are something.

If nothing else it has the community feeling and trappings of a church without the narrow doctrine. You don't even have to believe in God. You hear a lot of ideas and spiritual conversation without being beat on the head with a MESSAGE.Thanks. I'd like that, but I still attend the Catholic church. My husband is a very strong Catholic and since where I go to church doesn't matter all that much, I haven't wanted to upset him. I haven't even talked to him about any of this. I can worship G-d anywhere.:cool:

[vanilla]

Jesus a descendant of David.
Not technically, if you assume God was his biological (as it were) father.

Now, some may claim Mary was a descendant of David, and Joseph was also (I've heard this postulated).

Interesting.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by ImNotMad2
Jesus: "'I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.'" (John 10:9)
Jesus: "'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'" (John 14:5-6).
Peter: "'…Jesus Christ of Nazareth….Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.'" (Acts 4:10-12).
Jesus: "'For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son'" (John 3:17-18).
Perhaps looking at the context of the whole New Testament, not just the chapter alone, makes the verses in Matthew even more clear. My indoctrination was very thorough. I know what it says. I just don't think the writers understood the message. At least I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming it wasn't intentional. You commented earlier on the NT being 99% accurate to the original. I don't know how much you've studied on this, but the originals had some definite challenges and descrepancies. Also, in translating, there were many words that had several meanings depending on different things. Add the fact that a lot of the scripture was written in consonants, no short vowels and long vowels were different(?) and you have a bit of a challenge. I had a friend go back and re-translate a few scriptures for me and it was amazing how different they were. There even appears to be some descrepancies on Jesus final words. Anyway, saying that the NT is 99% anything leaves that up to interpretation. I does not seem clear, to me.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Mary wouldn't count. It specifically has to be through the paternal lineage (the son of the son of the son of...). maternal lineages don't count when it comes to royal Jewish bloodlines (which is what the lineage of David would be).

If Jesus was not the biological son of Joseph (or any other male) he can not be of the lineage of David and thus cannot be the Messiah. I suppose you could say that he is the bio-son of Joseph, in which case he's just a dude, not a God.

(Christians really shot themselves in the foot with that Virgin Birth thing ;))

[IWLN]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Mary wouldn't count. It specifically has to be through the paternal lineage (the son of the son of the son of...). maternal lineages don't count when it comes to royal Jewish bloodlines (which is what the lineage of David would be).

If Jesus was not the biological son of Joseph (or any other male) he can not be of the lineage of David and thus cannot be the Messiah. I suppose you could say that he is the bio-son of Joseph, in which case he's just a dude, not a God.

(Christians really shot themselves in the foot with that Virgin Birth thing ;)) I already had mine all typed up, but you said it faster. This was one of the first points I ever tried to debate with you. Uh, I lost. :(

HAPPY NEW YEAR, GO KISS YOUR WIFE

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Also, in translating, there were many words that had several meanings depending on different things. Add the fact that a lot of the scripture was written in consonants, no short vowels and long vowels were different(?) and you have a bit of a challenge.
This is true of Hebrew Scripture (i.e. the OT) but not of the NT which was written entirely in Greek. Greek has vowels.

Having said that, I find that reading the NT in Greek does have a different feel to it than the English translations (some of which are very good, others of which are attrocious). The tone is often diffrent. Mark for instance, reads as very breezy and informal in Greek, not like ponderous scripture at all.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Happy New Year to you too, IWLN.

(I'm going to go kiss my wife now) :)

[IWLN]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
This is true of Hebrew Scripture (i.e. the OT) but not of the NT which was written entirely in Greek. Greek has vowels.

Having said that, I find that reading the NT in Greek does have a different feel to it than the English translations (some of which are very good, others of which are attrocious). The tone is often diffrent. Mark for instance, reads as very breezy and informal in Greek, not like ponderous scripture at all. Okay, I'm confused. Isn't there a controversy on the "My G-d, my G-d, why hast thou forsaken me?" and it stems from a dispute on the Aramaic name for G-d, as well as more than one meaning? Anyway the translating problems with words that had plural meanings still exist, as well as whether or not they were writing down the truth anyway.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally posted by IWLN
Okay, I'm confused. Isn't there a controversy on the "My G-d, my G-d, why hast thou forsaken me?" and it stems from a dispute on the Aramaic name for G-d, as well as more than one meaning? Anyway the translating problems with words that had plural meanings still exist, as well as whether or not they were writing down the truth anyway.
Ok, this is a case where the authors actually quoted Jesus in Aramaic "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachtani?" (in Mark) or Hebrew "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" (in Matthew).
Either way, it's a quote from Psalm 22.

Some people think that Matthew may have chosen the Hebrew "Eli" because it sounded more similar to "Elijah" who was supposed to appear before the day of judgement (Malachi 4:5-6)

I don't know what the controversy would be over that but Matthew and mark both contradict Luke, who quotes Jesus' final words as "Father, into you hands I commend my spirit," and John who quotes him as saying "It is finished."

You are correct that many of the greek words had mutiple meanings and that some of the translations are slanted towards a certain agenda. The infamous condemnation of "homosexuals" in Corinthians, for instance is a mistranslation of two words malakos meaning "soft" (and was used to refer to those who were morally soft, including womanizers. It was not a referent for effeminate men or homosexuals) and arsenokoites, an obscure word which seems to have been coined by Paul. it means literally "male-bedder" but the suffix "bedder" was used derisively in compounds and the word really carries a tone more akin to "boy-fucker" (pardon my Greek).

Since ancient people did not have a concept of homosexuality as a fixed orientation and since Paul was adressing a culture in which married men sought out sexual relationships with teenage boys or boy prostitutes it is most probable that he was condemning pederasty and adultery rather than "homosexuality" as an exclusive orientation.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Since ancient people did not have a concept of homosexuality as a fixed orientation and since Paul was adressing a culture in which married men sought out sexual relationships with teenage boys or boy prostitutes it is most probable that he was condemning pederasty and adultery rather than "homosexuality" as an exclusive orientation.The gay issue was probably the beginning of the end for me as far as Christianity was concerned. An unfortunate sermon about this was the first time I interupted and left a church service. I'm a firm believer in that if you sit and listen to crap, you're giving tacit agreement.:( Thanks for answering the other questions.

[lynn73]

Change the word "Jesus" to "Love" in all those verses and you have yourself a workable theology.

That may be true according to your and Lekatt's philosophy. Kind of like a create your own truth or create your own religion thing? But it isn't the theology of Scripture. But, of course, you have ways of seeming to pick that apart or getting around it. Whatever you want to believe, it's your choice. *shrug* It's a workable theology as it is without any changes that modern man wants to make to it, imho.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

That's why the "theology of scripture" is a non-starter. it's based on the false premise that the Bible is infallible. The Bible was written by people. Words on a page can never measure up to the certainty that comes from a true religious experience.

If Scripture conflicts with compassion then the Bible is wrong. Love is completely trustworthy, an absolute good. It can never be wrong. Love trumps the Bible.

The "theology of Scripture" is idolotry.

[FriarTed]

interesting counter to the "Virgin Birth negates Davidic lineage" argument- tho I don't necessarily buy this, it is an interesting argument...

Basically, the miracle was that Mary conceived without having contact with Joseph. However, the sperm seed was actually Joseph's yet Divinely translated to Mary's womb (Divine artificial insemination).

I would still maintain that if Mary's conceived miraculously by Divine power alone, and not using human sperm, then Mary's Davidic heritage, being the ONLY human heritage, sufficed for JC's physical lineage & that Joseph's Davidic lineage gave it legal ratification.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I understand that argument, Friar, but it's contrary to Jewish tradition. It's one of the commonly cited Jewish arguments against the Messiahship of Jesus that he wasn't of the male lineage of David.

Of course, the Christian definition (and criteria) for the Messiah is much diffrent than the Jewish one. Once the Messiah is redefined as a Divine redeemer of sins then the Jewish critera goes out the window.

[IWLN]

Originally posted by lynn73
That may be true according to your and Lekatt's philosophy. Kind of like a create your own truth or create your own religion thing? But it isn't the theology of Scripture. But, of course, you have ways of seeming to pick that apart or getting around it. Whatever you want to believe, it's your choice. *shrug* It's a workable theology as it is without any changes that modern man wants to make to it, imho. Of course the theology of scripture is "a workable theology" for you and other christians. Works dandy for you. And the rest of the world can just go to hell. Good plan. *Shrug*

Love and compassion exist. Abstract as they are, their effect really is proven. They're not just some little philosophy. The were a command from G-d. You believe that divine personal experience is false, "a deceiving spirit"; but yet this spirit has the same message of love that is in the Bible. It must be a trick.:rolleyes: Don't you believe that G-d has any effect, contact, whatever on man today. It's not in the Bible so it doesn't happen? It's your right to believe that way and mine to believe that you might have picked up a little "deceiving spirit" of your own.