Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer [Archive] - Straight Dope Message Board

dpr

04-16-2000, 10:44 PM

Well GoodGuys theory aside, and working from the assumption that both have shields...

I think the sheer size of the destroyer plus the fact that it has fighters capable of wearing down the enterprises shield (and rather quickly when you consider the mass of tie fighters they could put out against it).

Of course the trekkers would be quite devious and could always reverse the flux capacitors.

But what if it came down to mano-mano. A group of friends and I recently had a debate centering around trek characters v wars characters. The trek characters fared very well in all facets except against jedi/sith. Between the jedi mind trick and superior reflexes we found the only one who could stand alone was Data whose reflexes make him able to weild a light sabre very well (we assume) and whose sheer weight prevent him from being telekinetcially moved.

Of course that wouldn't help him if an ISD blew the Enterprise to smithereens...

Timothy Campbell

04-16-2000, 11:21 PM

Okay, I'll put aside the fact that this question has an inanity quotient of 99%. Let's look at some facts.

In Star Wars, the weapons were intended to destroy ships. (Actually, the same goes for Battlestar Gallactica.) In Star Trek, the weapons could theoretically roast a planet. (Consider the minimalistic effects in the episode "A Piece of the Action".)

Quite frankly, Star Trek makes no sense. They encounter spacial anomalies of various intensities, but they always seem to survive with a few bruises and burns. The universe just isn't like that. You can be pelted with a potato gun or blasted by a hydrogen bomb. How is it that they always seem to be tossed about in such a limited range of damage?

This is all fantasy, folks. It's all good fun, but we know that if Voyager could create all that antimatter that it could annihilate an entire planet.

These shows are not about logic, but about philosophy. They make some effort to incorporate science into their shows because science is part of our lives, but we can't assume that the writers REALLY know what they're talking about. Nor should we
expect them to, because they have other
fish to fry.

So we "suspend disbelief" and ask ourselves about other questions. For example: would we be better off pursuing the "Borg" concept of perfection, or should we look towards the idea that we have to progress towards a higher level? If I'm not being too redundant, are the Borg locked into a stagnant paradigm, or are the Star Trek representation of humans moving towards something similar to what the "Q" have accomplished?

It is foolish to try to predict where our technology will go. I think that certain science fiction shows work just because they place aside the technological aspect in a blaze of "technobabble". What is more important: the means or the end?

Let's not confuse mythopoetical expression with prophecy.

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JDeMobray

04-16-2000, 11:27 PM

Y'know, there's an actual episode of TNG where Worf and the rest of the bridge crew comment, jokingly on the effect of "Laser Weapons" on the Enterprise's shield. The laser weapons is in quotes because of the very disdainful tone of voice Worf used to describe what they were being attacked with. Apparently, lasers do not have any significant effect on the shields of a Federation starship.

Now, a quick look into the Star Wars technical specs that West End Games put out a few years ago, lists the armament of a Victory class Imperial Star Destroyer as 10 Quad Turbolaser batteries, 40 Double Turbolaser batteries, and 80 Concussion Missile launchers. (It also lists the size of the Victory class at 900 meters long.) Tie Fighters are listed at 6.3 meters with 2 fire-linked Laser cannons.

Now, the U.S.S. Enterprise D is listed in the Star Trek Technical manual at 641 meters in length and 470 meters wide. (Nowhere near the Millenium Falcons tiny 26.7 meters, btw.) The same manual lists it's 12 Type-X phasers and 3 rapid fire burst photon torpedo tubes. It carries nowhere near as many weapons as the ISD. However, the real strength comes in the Shield Generators, which are listed as having a 2,700,000 teraJoule output.

Given the Enterprises apparent immunity (or at least immense resistance) to laser weapons, I've got to give this fight to the Enterprise every time. The situation only becomes worse for the Empire if you figure in a fleet v. fleet combat, or upgrade to the Enterprise E.

(OH MY GOD, I NEVER REALIZE HOW BIG OF A NERD I REALLY AM!!!!!!) :)

PVonAtark

04-16-2000, 11:32 PM

A surprisingly easy question. To wit: In Star Trek: The Next Generation, There is a particular episode (sorry, I don't know the title) in which the enterprise crew is attacked by a primitive vessel using laser weapons. This is commented on by lt. Worf, "captian, they are targeting us with LASER weapons (scoff)" The ships weapons have absolutely no effect on the Enterprise's shields.

On the other side of the equation, in all three movies, the crew and officers of the ISDs refer to their primary weapons as turbolasers.

In other words, Darth Vader and crew would attack the Enterprise with great gusto, firing all of their weapons and having ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT. (Vader would be furious, probably choke out three or four random officers) Most likely, the Enterprise wouldn't even bother to counterattack.

Possible swerve, Vader's powers don't seem to work at range, (If they did, then why is Yoda still alive?), however, vader can use his powers on an image. (see Empre strikes back) So, when Picard hailed the executor, Vader could choke him out.

dpr

04-17-2000, 01:24 AM

Not wanting to get nerdy but have to reply to your cop-out answers re lasers (I should point out I AM a trekkie and do remember that episode but quibbling about semantic definitions isn't addressing the debate fairly).

For a start it has been addressed in the past (I will supply reference when I get the time) that Star Wars weapons aren't 'lasers' as we know them. The blasters they use are energy-based weapons but not 20th century lasers. So let's not quibble over exact types - let's assume they're working from the same physics realm if this debate is to continue.

JDeMobray

04-17-2000, 02:26 AM

Um, while it may have come up on some message board somewhere, none of the official or even the semi-official Star Wars source material I have ever seen makes any sort of distinction between a Turbolaser and a regular, old-fashioned one.

As for working from the same physics, I had thought that's what we were doing by comparing references to lasers with lasers from the other series. Now if you mean, 'Let's put them on equal technological footing but leave everything else the same' then certainley the ISD is going to win just based on sheer number of weapons; but I don't think that's what the original question was about.

Star Trek technology is leaps and bounds ahead of the Star Wars equivalents in pretty much every way. (Excepting the force, which is more of a magic effect anyway).

JJ Richard

04-17-2000, 03:30 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Timothy Campbell:
[B]Okay, I'll put aside the fact that this question has an inanity quotient of 99%. Let's look at some facts.

Funny, my calculator came up with 99.002234566744%

Can't for the life of me figure out where the massive difference originates. Is my calculator inane? Insane? Arrggghh! :)

JJ

scr4

04-17-2000, 03:33 AM

You know, a powerful laser should be a useful weapon against Star Trek ships, because the one thing not affected by their shields is visible light. General Products hulls have the same problem.

A cloaking device would be a useful defence though. Did they ever explain why they can look out from a cloaked ship? The old Invisible Man had better physics there - the eyes were not invisible, otherwise he can't see.

Icerigger

04-17-2000, 06:22 AM

I think we should only consider what is on the screen not what has been written in novels or tech manuals. What have we seen of the star destroyers' weapons and shields? Very little. In SW an ISD blasted a chunk of Leia's ship and disabled it. When the Falcon escaped form the space port and was being pursued by two ISD
even at point blank range the destroyers were not able to disable the falcon only weaken it's shields. In Jedi one A-wing fighter collided with a Super Star Destroyer
and damaged it enough that it collided with the Death Star 2. The shields in SW are not effective because we constantly see fighters weave in and out at close ranges to the hull without being bothered by shields around the vessels. The fighters in the SW universe are just too small to generate the power necessary to affect large ships. Especially if they are shielded as in the Trek universe.

manhattan

04-17-2000, 08:23 AM

OUT! Out I say!

jackas

04-17-2000, 08:23 AM

I'm not much of a Star Trek fan but even if these two ships existed, think of it this way.....

Star Trek is set in the FUTURE.

Star Wars is set "A long time ago in a galaxy far far away...."

Given this time difference, distance and the fact that many of the physical aspects of Space and Time do not hold true for either periods (ie where is the gravity coming from, why do particals slow down after they blow up etc) I can't see there being much chance of the two ever meeting.

But we can only hope! :)

Jai Pey

04-17-2000, 08:31 AM

Anyone ever read the fan-fiction crossover stories with SW and ST? This scenario has been played out before.

For anyone who's read the SW "real" fiction books (e.g. The Rogue Squadron series), I'm surprised no-one's mentioned the Ion cannon yet. I'd love to know what havoc that'd wreak on the Enterprise.

Regards,

Jai Pey

Cactus Jack

04-17-2000, 09:01 AM

Kirk wins. Kirk always wins. That's all I've got to say.

DSYoungEsq

04-17-2000, 10:31 AM

Interesting point not yet mentioned: So far as I can remember, the Star Wars universe ships can't fight in hyperdrive. In Star Trek, the ships fight while travelling at warp speeds. This means, theoretically, that the Enterprise would have the advantage in attacking speeds, but the ISD would be able to hyper out and avoid any destruction.

And, yes, it is inane, but it's fun to imagine anyway. :)

Esprix

04-17-2000, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by Screeme:

I imagine the Falcon and the Enterprise are probably fairly similar in size.

The Enterprise held just over 1,000 crewmen plus cargo - the Millenium Falcon held 4 plus cargo. The MF in ST terms is about half as much larger than a runabout from Deep Space 9.

Esprix

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sixseatport

04-17-2000, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by PVonAtark:
A surprisingly easy question. To wit: In Star Trek: The Next Generation, There is a particular episode (sorry, I don't know the title) in which the enterprise crew is attacked by a primitive vessel using laser weapons. This is commented on by lt. Worf, "captian, they are targeting us with LASER weapons (scoff)" The ships weapons have absolutely no effect on the Enterprise's shields.

I remember the episode. It wasn't that the technology of the laser couldn't hurt the Enterprise's shields, it was because the lasers were such low-energy weapons. Phasers are basically really high energy lasers -- like a turbolaser in Star Wars.

DSYoungEsq

04-17-2000, 03:54 PM

ok, folks, now I have to step in and force y'all to get a bit of a grip on reality.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT PHASERS OR STAR DESTROYER ENGINES ARE BASED ON; THEY HAVEN'T BEEN INVENTED YET AND AREN'T EVER ADEQUATELY EXPLAINED IN THE MOVIES OR TV SHOWS.

Sorry, folks, but get a grip, huh? Phasers are bright streaks of light that do damage, so are turbo lasers. Shields stop damage from happening, in an unexplained, but photographically different way from episode to episode and movie to movie.

Guessing through imagination what might happen is fun; attempting to discuss the issue by logically analyzing the scientific properties of the various weapons, etc., is plain silly. :)

Yue Han

04-17-2000, 04:30 PM

Ummm....

sixseatport:
Look at it this way: the Enterprise has a small matter-anitmatter mixer as it's power source. An Imperial Star Destroyer has a small star/black hole as it's power source. I don't have my PhD yet, but that doesn't sound like much of a contest to me....

Which side are you weighing this on? Because Trek has the advantage.
Matter + Antimatter = Unimaginable amounts of energy.

A star would be fusion. Fusion provides a lot of power, but not as much as matter-antimatter would.

A black hole would provide NEGATIVE energy. Nothing gets out a black hole. Ever. Not even Boba Fett.

--John

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Sterra

04-17-2000, 06:38 PM

the star crusher got out of a black hole(i think)

why would matter+ anti matter produce energy?

wouldent it just cancel out?

as for universe against universe the empire would win. :)

hmm... is there some sort of role playing type thing for star trek? Star wars has one so im guessing star trek does to. I only played role playing type games once to realise i dont liek it :)

Yue Han

04-17-2000, 06:53 PM

Matter + Antimatter = Energy bacuase that's how the Universe works. Antimatter is real stuff, no just a scifi invention.

When matter comes into contact with antimatter, the mass of both is completely converted into energy, in the relationship
E(energy) equal M(mass), mutlipled by c(the speed of light) squared.

c is a large number. 3*10^8 meters/second, I believe. Therefore, a little antimatter makes a lot of energy.

--John

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wevets

04-17-2000, 07:07 PM

Due credit must be given to my friend Brian Gilmore for the following:

Data: Captain, we have detected a large triangular ship on our sensors.

Picard: Very well, Mr. Data, open a hailing frequency.

::a large, shiny, black dome head appears, filling the main viewscreen of the Enterprise::

Picard (Officious tone): Greetings, I am Jean-Luc Picard of the Federation Starship Ent... ack...kcuk...uulkk...kkkak...

Darth Vader: All too easy.

Repeat as necessary until the Federation runs out of starships.
;)

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tracer

04-17-2000, 07:21 PM

All the Enterprise would have to do is back up at Warp Two and lob photon torpedoes at the Star Destroyer until it explodes. Star Destroyers' turbolaser beams only move at the speed of light, not faster; photon torpedoes can travel at up to warp 9 (c.f. The Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual).

If the Star Destroyer tried to hyperdrive outta there, the Enterprise could give chase at high warp speed.* The Star Destroyer, like all Star Wars vessels, will be incapable of firing any of its weapons while in hyperspace, but the Enterprise will have no such limitation.

*) The ST:TNG Tech Manual describes warp 9 as being about 1000 times the speed of light. We really don't know how fast ships travel in hyperspace in the Star Wars universe. All we know about Star Wars ship speeds is that the Millennium Falcon was considered "fast" because it could make the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs -- a parsec being a unit of distance, not time.

SPOOFE

04-17-2000, 07:40 PM

Well, I started this, so I think it's about time I offered up my take for analysis.

First, ISD's do have shields. Those big, seemingly-vulnerable-yet-not-as-vulnerable-as-you'd-think domes on top of the command tower. They're pretty effective, I suppose.

Anyway, here's the scenario as I'd see it... argue with it if you want, but if you do, I expect you to offer up a different scenario to counter.

I'll disregard the fact that there's a huge time differential between these two eras of fiction. Let's just say that Q sneezed and accidently warped both ships to a random patch of space somewhere in the universe.

Enterprise detects the ISD at several million kilometers away. Enterprise hails the ISD. The commander of the ISD (not necessarily Vader) responds to the hail (let's assume that the two forms of transmission are compatible). After a while, he decides that this so-called "Enterprise" would be a good catch to benefit the Empire. He secretly orders gunners to their stations and pilots to their fighters. Enterprise may or may not detect the powering up of turbolasers and ion cannons... but what has been implied from the various Star Wars novels and source books, it doesn't take more than a few seconds. ISD micro-jumps (it's been done many times) right up next to the Enterprise. The Enterprise is confused by this action and isn't able to get its' shields up in time. The initial volley of the ISD wounds the Enterprise critically. The following salvo from the 72 fighters continue to wound it. Repeat until destruction is complete.

Now, I know this is full of holes... there may be other ways that the two ships could come into contact with each other, and it may even be more interesting to have a gun battle inside either ship.

Anyway, I'll shush now and go eat some potatoes. Mmm.... po-ta-toes.....

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-SPOOFE

inertia

04-17-2000, 08:39 PM

Screeme: No, the Enterprise is waaaay bigger than the Falcon.
Enterprise: crew 1000
Falcon : crew 3

Perhaps what is throwing you guys off is the fact that the Enterprise is a much more graceful structure. It doesn't LOOK that big, but if you'll recall from Star Trek 1 the thing is absofreakinlutely huge. It's huge beyond hugeness. Furthermore, the 1701-D is a galaxy class ship while the original Enterprise is merely a Constitution class which was tiny in comparison. My point being that the ISD isn't any larger. The Imperial Executor is the newer looking SD which shows up in Episode VI. It is larger than the stock ISD, but I can't find the measurements for it.

SD: Just over 1,600 meters.

In the last 2-hour episode there was an Enterprise E or F. This thing de-phased using the phasing device Ricker worked on in a previous episode, it had three engines not just two, and Ricker (now the El Capitan) says, "Warp 13, engage." That sumbitch would toast the Death Star.

tracer

04-17-2000, 09:21 PM

inertia wrote:

In the last 2-hour episode there was an Enterprise E or F. This thing de-phased using the phasing device Ricker worked on in a previous episode, it had three engines not just two, and Ricker (now the El Capitan) says, "Warp 13, engage." That sumbitch would toast the Death Star.

The episode to which you are referring, entitled "All Good Things...", features the Enterprise from 25 years in the future. You have to freeze-frame the video tape, but it is possible to make out its registry number: it is NCC 1701-D. That's right, D. Not E or F. It's the good old Galaxy-class Enterprise D of ST:TNG with some extra goodies strapped onto its hull.

The extra goodies on its hull included a third warp nacelle (as you've mentioned), and a mondo powerful phaser cannon that could blast clear through a Klingon battlecruiser, shields and all, in a single hit.

However, it was not this souped-up Enterprise D that travelled at "Warp 13". The "warp 13, engage!" line was spoken by Captain Beverly Crusher, in command of her own scientific exploration starship. It is reasonable to assume that the upgraded Enterprise would be able to go even faster. Then again, we have no idea how fast "Warp 13" is -- the current warpspeed scale has warp 10 as "infinitely fast", so that means the Trek universe 25 years down the like must have re-calibrated the warpspeed scale God-knows-how.

tracer

04-17-2000, 09:23 PM

Er, that should be "down the line", not "down the like", in that last paragraph.

inertia

04-17-2000, 09:33 PM

Jai Pey: I'd almost forgotten about the Ion Cannons. That's a good point.

Cactus Jack: James always wins, but Jean Luc is on the 1701-D.

sixseatport: Are you sure about the energy source thing for the ISD? I have no idea as I don't recall having heard before.

tracer: Are you absolutely certain that Riker never mutters "Warp 13, engage"? I remember him saying it and additionally, I've never been a fan of Voyager. If you are absolutely certain I guess I'll have to concede defeat since I do not have a copy handy and wouldn't know where to look this up.

BTW, the ISD definitely has shields, but as an experienced X-wing fighter pilot I can say that it's a fairly easy propostition to knock out the shield generators (after having disposed of the Tie fighters and Tie bombers and occasionally some Tie advanced, of course.) As a matter of fact, I've taken out two or three ISD's out singlehandedly.

SW does have the hydrospanner, though.

SPOOFE

04-17-2000, 09:55 PM

Inertia, the Enterprise-D is about 650 meters long. An Imperial-Class Star Destroyer is 1600 meters long. I'm not trying to sound like a brainiac or superior or anything, and this is fiction, but there are set things to be kept in mind.

For some fun, check out the Star Wars Guide to Vehicals or the Cross-Sections book. In addition to a really crazy view of the innards of the Death Star, it's got the workings of a Star Destroyer.

(And the Executor is 8000 meters long... you see, unlike those who manage to avoid nerdliness, I know a sickening amount on this subject... take care, y'all!)

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-SPOOFE

kaylasdad99

04-17-2000, 10:46 PM

Coupla things, the net result of which will probably do nothing more than reveal me for the lightweight I am:

1. The Galactic Empire does not have transporter technology. Am I the only one who suspects that their shields might be transparent to a technology that their engineers don't even appear to have anticipated? I concede that whatever is being beamed over by transporter is simply another form of energy, and thus should be stopped just as surely as an energy weapon, but in ROTJ, the shields didn't prevent a relatively slow-moving out-of-control X-wing fighter from taking out the bridge deflectors(as was pointed out earlier), so I'm not betting the farm on the efficacy of ISD shields against a transporter beam.

2. This isn't mine, but I'm using it anyway. The Star Wars people can generate an energy weapon that can sunder the molecular bonds of any material, and what do they do with it? They make swords.

dpr

04-17-2000, 11:04 PM

Well, as I've already said in a straight Enterprise v ISD battle I feel the ISD would win regardless of my inner feelings (which are cheering for Picard et al).

Interesting to pit the ISD against something like the Borg though. The first encounter could be quite brief - the ISD's firepower annihalate the entire cube quickly and efficiently. But do the collective (other cubes) then adapt? If their communication is subspace then the ISD may struggle with the next borg attack.

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The Asbestos Mango

04-17-2000, 11:37 PM

Ok, the turbolasers in the Star Wars universe fire blasts of laser light that is so incredibly amplified and condensed that it is effectively a solid.

I think the ISD, with that kind of weapons technology, could effectively pound the Enterprise into dust.

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JDeMobray

04-17-2000, 11:57 PM

Asmodean: Currently, Last Unicorn Games is putting out a rather extensive line of RPG products based on the Next Gen/DS9 series'.
FASA (the same company who does Battletech) produced a system in the early to mid 1980's, written by Greg Coystikain.

sixseatport

04-18-2000, 12:59 AM

[thread hijack]

Let's expand this a little bit: How about the Federation vs. The Empire?

Okay, the numbers are a little skewed (300 federation ships vs. 25,000 Imperial Star Destroyers!). Throw in the Romulans, Cardassians, Klingons.....hell, just throw in the entire Star Trek universe vs. The Empire. Who would win?

[/thread hijack]

Federation shields work basically by absorbing energy and redirecting it (either off into space or into some kind of buffer in the ship -- can't remember). The turbolasers from the Star Wars universe are basically giant energy throwers -- 'laser' is a misnomer. A Star Destroyer would be able to throw so much energy at the Enterprise that the shields would overload and blow up the ship before Picard could even say 'surrender.'

Look at it this way: the Enterprise has a small matter-anitmatter mixer as it's power source. An Imperial Star Destroyer has a small star/black hole as it's power source. I don't have my PhD yet, but that doesn't sound like much of a contest to me....

<my geek factor just tripled for having posted this!>

Lexicon

04-18-2000, 01:02 AM

Allright, to quote the OP:

This isn't a question about facts as much as it is about imagination.

So, please excuse me if I am not 100% accurate on all the sci-fi "facts" that there are.

Anyway, I think that the Star Destroyer would open a huge imerial can o' whoop ass on the Enterprise. I may be wrong but the Star Destroyer is a warship, right? The Enterprise isn't is it?
And they both have shields. They are not that different in size. They are both kind of big and bulky and slow to maneuver.
The SD (that's "Star Destroyer", not Straight Dope") has some distinct advantages.
[list]
Weapons out the wazoo.
Fighters and small support ships.
Tractor beams
The force
No petty moral hangups nor slightest compunction with wiping out foes entirely.
Two words: Death Star

All in all, I think that not only would the ISD beat the Enterprise like a side of beef, but that the Empire on the whole would spank the Federation like a red headed stepchild.
Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
The cool thing is, that since this is fiction here, there is no right or wrong, so it's safe to say that everyone is right. I guess that means that everyone is simultaneously wrong as well, but that's another thread entirely.

kinoons

04-18-2000, 01:31 AM

Now, if you want to compare the two ships, then you need to remove the force from the battle. We all know that vader would open Santi's emperial size keg of whoop 'o ass, but he could do so from any whip. Stick him inside a garbage scow and he still whoops ass....

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Esprix

04-18-2000, 09:34 AM

A few points:

"Star Trek" (the original series) had a warp scale that went up at least as high as 13, I think a little higher, but we never found out what the upper threshold was. According to the tech manuals, it was recalibrated when warp technology improved so that warp 10 was the upper limit (being in all places and all times at once, which Einstein says is impossible, but "Voyager" managed to circumvent rather clumsily, and the Enterprise got pretty near with the Traveller's help). Although it is possible they'd broken this law of physics and could go faster than that threshold (i.e., warp 13) by the time of "All Good Things...", I'd guess they just again recalibrated the scale with the development of new warp technology (the 3rd warp nacelle might support this).
An Imperial Star Destroyer might win the first battle with the Borg, but I guarantee they'd lose the war. Frankly, I'm still amazed they haven't taken over the Federation. I just never got the impression that the SW universe folk were as clever as the ST universe folk. Personally, I'd love to see Vader as a Borg... {heh heh heh}
Regarding the Force, and assuming a lot of it is mental control, you forget that the ST universe is chocked full of telepathic races - Vulcans, Betazoids, and so on. In the above scenario, Deanna would have immediately felt Vader's evil chill and warned Picard off to a safe distance, or at least had him fire on the Star Destroyer. I'd also love to see Spock mind-meld with Vader!

That is all.

Esprix

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sixseatport

04-18-2000, 01:22 PM

I don't have time to post responses to everyone, but here's a link with official definitions (i.e. OKayed by Lucas) and decent scientific explanations of the science in Star Wars -- including everything you ever wanted to know about ISDs.

Oh, and I was wrong about the engine -- it's not a small star or black hole, it actually is a giant antimatter engine (a much bigger version of what Enterprise has).
http://theforce.net/swtc/

Esprix

04-18-2000, 03:57 PM

Hmmm, from what I can recall visually from the show, it sounds like some Borg cubes (for example, the one that got through to Earth in ST:First Contact) are about as big as a Star Destroyer.

So which one of those would win? Especially considering a Borg cube can also take heavy damage and keep fighting, just like a SD.

Do you think the Borg Queen would get it on with Vader boy? :) "Data? Data who?"

Esprix

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tracer

04-18-2000, 05:47 PM

kaylasdad99 wrote:

1. The Galactic Empire does not have transporter technology. Am I the only one who suspects that their shields might be transparent to a technology that their engineers don't even appear to have anticipated?

In the Star Trek universe, transporters can't even function through the shields of the ships running the transporters. If the technology to make shields transporter-transparent existed, the Star Trek engineers would surely have incorporated this capability into their ships' shield designs. The fact that no beam-through-able shields exist in the Star Trek universe implies that all shields would stop transporters, whether the shield engineers know about the existence of transporters or not.

But then, bringing down a Star Destroyer's shields is simply a matter of scoring one well-placed direct hit on the shield generator tower.

SPOOFE

04-18-2000, 06:33 PM

I'd like to say this... if the Enterprise crew had a sizeable knowledge of the layout, specifcations, statistics, etc. of a Star Destroyer, they'd probably be able to create some sort of intrusive counter-attack (for example, sneak a crew somewhere on board or, yes, even transport a bomb onto the bridge... though this would be risky as it'd leave the Enterprise very, very vulnerable to attack in the fifteen-twenty seconds the shields would be down). However, as far as the Enterprise is concerned, that big tower could be a launch bay or garbage containment. Given time, I'm sure they'd be able to discern the layout of the ship, but in the midst of a firefight, there're other things to be concerned with.

Another thing that may be a factor in the ISD's favor... the armoring. The ship is constructed out of "durasteel", which seems like it'd just be really, really dense steel. The Enterprise has had trouble transporting people/equipment through dense materials (like an asteroid, for instance). Which would probably disrupt any transporter attempt, or at least take a longer amount of time to ensure a safe transport, or something.

Also, the ST ships are a lot more fragile than SW ships (except maybe for TIE fighters, but those are smaller masswise than any shuttlecraft I've ever seen). The Enterprise needs a structural integrity field to prevent from falling apart during even the simplest of maneuvers. An ISD, on the other hand, can easily keep fighting with almost half the ship blown away (and contrary to popular belief, they DO have auxillary bridges... even tertiary bridges...).

Finally, there're have been several mentions of how easy it is to mess with a Star Destroyer in an X-wing... I think the Enterprise is significantly larger than a starfighter.

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-SPOOFE

Monster104

04-18-2000, 08:34 PM

Star Destroyers are 1600 meters long (roughly a mile). They possess immensely powerful shields designed to protect it from other capital ships (Not fighters like X-wings and A-wings, which can actually fly underneath the shield...TIE fighters are designed to protect it from other fighters). Underneath their shields are heavily armored hulls, and their viewports are not measly glass, but transparisteel (transparent metal). They have 4 squadrons of TIE fighters, 1 squadron of TIE interceptors, and 1 squadron of TIE bombers (A squadron being 12 fighters). It also has shuttles and gunboats in its arsenal. It has hundreds of turbolasers and ion cannons, and proton torpedo and concussion missile launchers. It also has very powerful tractor beams for recovering damaged ships (up to small-mid sized capital ships). It has a relatively low sublight engine speed, but it can travel across the galaxy in roughly a month in hyperspace (not "lightspeed", "hyperspace").

I don't know much about the Enterprise, other than it is 600 or so meters long. It is also not a warship, but a diplomacy ship. It has phasers and photon torpedo launchers. It has shields, but they don't seem to do much (In every episode, they'll get fired on, and they'll take structural damage even though their shields were at 68% or something). It has longer ranged weapons, and faster flight speed, but it's warp speed is far slower than that of hyperspace (look at Voyager...roughly estimated 80 years to get from one quadrant to another).

The Enterprise could not beam people or bombs aboard the Star Destroyer when it's shields are up. The Star Destroyer's shields even prevent hyper-com transmissions from coming through (Only direct ship-to-ship holotransmissions.) Even if the Enterprise did somehow manage to get a bomb onboard the Star Destroyer, it is of such immense size the damage would be insignificant (BTW, that A-wing that crashed into the Executor hit the piloting section of the bridge while it was performing maneuvers...secondary control did not have the time to avoid a collision with the Death Star).

The Star Destroyer has several options up it's sleeve. For example, it could execute the micro-jump SPOOFE mentioned (That type of maneuver is mentioned in many of the Star Wars source books and novels), acquire the Enterprise with tractor beams, and bombard it with it's ion cannons (which according to Star Wars source books, penetrate every documented type of shield), which shorts out electrical components of every type, disabling engines, weapons, shields, life support, etc. It may then proceed to destroy the ship with turbolasers, or board the ship with troop transports (after all, a Star Destroyer is supposed to be a self-sustaining war machine...it garrisons tens of thousands of stormtroopers).

There is not much the enterprise could do to a Star Destroyer, but even if it did seem like it might risk too much damage, it can always run away by going into hyperspeed (Which I've determined to be far faster than warp speeds).

There you have it...all documented information from both universes (Sorry if I seem biased in favor of Star Wars...it's universe is far more explained than Star Trek)

tracer

04-18-2000, 10:09 PM

SPOOFE Bo Diddly wrote:

transport a bomb onto the bridge... though this would be risky as it'd leave the Enterprise very, very vulnerable to attack in the fifteen-twenty seconds the shields would be down

The Enterprise doesn't have to drop all of its shields in order to use its transporters -- it only has to open up a sizeable hole in its shields facing the direction it wants to use the transporters in. It could drop one "sector" of shields, beam a bomb onto the Star Destroyer's bridge, and then immediately turn so that its downed shield-sector was no longer facing the Star Destroyer.

Or at least, that's how you'd do it in Star Fleet Battles (a wargame invented in 1979, based on the Roddenberry-sanctioned Star Trek Technical Manual by Franz Joseph Designs).

tracer

04-18-2000, 10:11 PM

Woops! Excuse me. The book by Franz Joseph Designs is titled the Star Fleet Technical Manual, not the Star Trek technical manual. Even in 1975 (when the book was published), Paramount was guarding its trademark on the Star Trek name.

The Ryan

04-18-2000, 11:17 PM

Also, the shuttles have transporters as well. Bombs could be placed on them. The fact that all ST shields prevent transports only shows that either:
No one is the ST has come up with a different shield (and people in SW would probably have a different shield archetype)
or
Such a shield woul leave a ship to vulnerable (other people could transport in).

I keep on reading that the Enterprise was a diplomatic ship, but I don't remember seeing any radically different ships. Just what do the warships look like?

SPOOFE

04-18-2000, 11:50 PM

When I say that the Enterprise is a diplomatic vessel, that has nothing to do with what's outside... it's what's inside that counts. A huge amount of the space inside the ship is given over towards space for diplomats and their families, plus amenities for comfort and entertainment. This leaves a relatively small percentage of ship space and resources for weapons/defenses.

In contrast, the whole of a Star Destroyer is given over towards the masterful art of war. That fact, combined with the fact that a Star Destroyer has at least triple the sheer mass/volume (roughly), implies that a Star Destroyer would be able to concentrate a much larger amount of offensive energy at the Enterprise.

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-SPOOFE

Jai Pey

04-19-2000, 12:02 AM

Hmmmm...

I'm glad SPOOF cleared you all up on the size issues. Yes, the [i]Executor[/] is 8 kilometers long, its the Super Star Destroyer class (SSD).

Having done what inertia has claimed myself, from time to time (and I quote):

As a matter of fact, I've taken out two or three ISD's out singlehandedly.
I offer you the following considerations.

(1) Shields are a preventative measure.
The were never meant to stop ships from colliding with one another. They prevent the particles of space from holing a vessel (thats deflectors in ST universe) and they stop lasers/turbo-lasers in the SW universe (again, thats deflectors). The defensive shield system in BOTH universes is not unlimited, and apt to fail at the worst moment.

(2) ST characters (in particular the crew of the Enterprise-D) tend to use their heads in attacking, more than the Imperials ever did. It wouldn't be much of a stretch of the imagination in seeing them figure out the shield projecters on that big wedge-shaped monstrosity they're facing are two relatively tiny sphere's they could target easily with a salvo of photon torpedos.

(3) However, SW vessels are far more robust, with a notable exception being the Falcon.
After the shields fail on these babies, you don't see or read about "Core dumps" or "coolant leaks" (here's a trivia quesiton I'd like the answer for: # of times LaForge yells "coolant leak!" in TNG and the Ent-D explodes). Impstar's (as they're known in my geeky circles *pushing up his glasses*) are made to absorb punishment, and are so huge (I saw a correct figure of over a kilometer in length) you can literally punch holes all over them and they'll keep fighting. If you've got the time or patience, you can tactically hit all the turbolaser/ion cannon/warhead launching batteries so they can't shoot you. Then you're being swarmed by TIE's at the same time, some of which have pretty big warheads to launch of their own. To my knowledge runabouts/shuttlecraft don't have much by way of weaponry. The long and the short is, the Impstar's own shields don't matter, the deciding factor would be, can the Enterprise
disable the huge craft?

(4) My answer is: No, not before the Impstar lowers the Enterprise's shields and wreaks havoc on all its electrical systems with the ion cannons. End of story, Picard lovers. These ships are made for planetary bombardment... how the Enterprise D's shields can withstand it is beyond me. Once the ship is disabled, floating in space, then the Empire can concentrate on interrogating the prisoners at a more leisurely pace. *Black Interrogator droid with menacing needles hovers behind Jai Pey*

(5) The wildcard: Transporter technology. I'm really kinda "iffy" about the pros and cons of how the transporter might be of benefit to the Enterprise. Maybe transport an explosive device into the opposing ship's "engine room"? Ahhh... but in order to do so, they have to lower the shields. And if they lower the shields, they can get broadsided by a barrage of ion cannon that could potentially disable the whole ship. Not feasible... they'd risk too much in that maneuver.

Totally unrelated thing I read up there from tracer:
All we know about Star Wars ship speeds is that the Millennium Falcon was considered "fast" because it could make the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs -- a parsec being a unit of distance, not time.

The Han Solo prequel-trilogy has an interesting spin on this... the area that the Kessel run takes place in is filled with black holes. Thus, direct routes from planet/system A to planet/system B might not be possible. However, if a pilot had the moxie to push the outside of the envelop and go through an uncharted area, perhaps fly closer to a black hole than anticipated... he could foreseeably make this set-distance run (12 parsecs) in less than 12 parsecs.

Perfectly right, though... Han boasting about ship speed by talking distance is misdirection (thank you Lord Lucas). Its like me claiming Oh yeah I'm the fastest runner on earth, why I ran the length of my province in less than 1000 kilometers.

Anyhoo... back to my pilot studies.

Regards,
Jai Pey

dpr

04-19-2000, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by SPOOFE Bo Diddly:
... it's what's inside that counts

Oh god!! Now we're using cliches!!

Next they'll be claiming our universes are merely part of Hollywood too...

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The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams.

Larry Borgia

04-19-2000, 01:45 AM

As long as you're on the subject what about:

Borg Cube v. Death Star?

ThisNameForRent

04-19-2000, 01:47 AM

I may repeat several already made points, and dispute a few others. If you don't like it, to fragging bad, write a response and deal with the pain.

OK, it boils down to a simple matter of policy:

Enterprise Contact Policy:
Step 1.Hi we're the federation. Will you be our friend?
Step 2.Hello Why aren't you answering?
Step 3.<continue on with similar inane drivel until they finally leave>

Galactic Empire Contact Policy:
Step 1. Surrender NOW.
Step 2. <Open Fire Subcommander. Blast them into Muons>

As for the reasoning that the enterprise could simply beam over a few photorps into the ISD, because since their shields wouldn't be designed to stop transporters, utter nonsense. Firstly, they'd have to think of it, and aside from Scotty, the average cunning of a starfleet officer appears to be on the same order as a rather demented goldfish. Plus theer is no reason to think that transporters wouldn't be stopped by Imperial Ray/Particle shielding. They stop Turbolasers, Ion Cannons, and small warheads, so Transporters would probably not be a problem.

But assume that for some reason you were able to beam a party over to the ISD. Imagine Heavily Armored, Armed, Imperial Storm Troopers vs. Pajama Wearing, Flashlight Wielding, Starfleet Yellow-Shirts. Personally I know who MY money is on. ISD's Carry THOUSANDS of troopers. Transporters can beam 6 at a time. And for those of you about to mention the first Death Star, it was the size of a small moon, and that is alot of volume to cover even for 100,000 troops, much less a reduced garrison.

A friend of mine (who shall remain nameless) Suggested that if Scotty were there, he would do the same thing he did on the Kobiashi Maru scenario. FOr those of you who don't know, Scotty scored teh highest Legitimate score on the KM test in starfleet history. He ALMOST beat it by beaming Anti-Matter canisters into the seams of the enemy vessel's shields, then beamed back just the canisters. This had a very detrimental effect on the enemy vessel. ISDs, being rather more heavily armored than anything in the ST universe, would take this ploy, shrug off the damage and lay teh smack down on whoever was arrogant enough to think it would work. This isn't to say they wouldn't feel it. They would take damage, and have to make quite a few repairs. It is to point out the difference between a properly designed warship and a family camper(i.e. the 1701-D/E).

As for the matter of laser blasts being ineffective against the Enterprise shields, that is blindly optimistic at best. as mentioned, they were refering to LOW power lasers. To clarify this for all the dedicated Trek-heads out there, I will draw a nice, clear, modern example for you:

There is a reason the Iowa Class Battleship wasn't retired until after the Gulf war. the Low power laser refered to in the quote mentioned would be, on the scale we are talking about, be equivalent to about a .50 cal heavy machine gun. Good enough for small targets such as trucks, tanks etc, but a peashooter against an armored fortification. A turbolaser would be about equivalent to Big Mo's 18 inch bombardment guns. i.e. armor/shields? what armor/shields? ISDs also, ton for ton, pack more guns than a redneck NRA chapter.

As for the question of Empire versus borg... Empire, partially because of above reasoning, partially because they don't try to assimilate anything. They crush it under-boot.

I COULD go into several other points, such as fighters, Sith powers, FTL combat (impossible ), Social Differences (aside from wearing spray on dresses/uniforms, just what IS the point of a ship's councelor?), etc, but it is late and I've given you all quite a bit to think about already. :)

Love, Luck, and Lemmings to you all :cool:

Bored2001

04-19-2000, 03:50 AM

I might as well throw in my 2 cents.

Lets say that the ISD doesn't simply destroy the Enterprise while they are attempting diplomacy with a "micro-jump". I mean, why would they? they'd be wondering Who the hell these people with weird weapons, weird propulsion and other technologies are.

First off Enterprise has a sensor range of many many lightyears. As compared to Sw when the Falcon couldn't even determine what the Death-star was without visual recon. The Enterprise would have ample time to scan the ISD and find any weaknesses, including the sheild generator positions (big white towers that just bed SHOOT ME.)

When a battle ensued after the inital diplomatic attempts the Enterprise would have 2 tactical choices. Warp around and attack the SD from warp velocities, thus dodging all attacks the ISD could possibly throw at it or
send in their shuttlecraft(some of which are built for speed and menuverability, A-wing anyone?) to take down the sheild generators and then go to warp velocity and beam aboard bombs(hrm-replicators would be nice here... make a trillion little bombs) into the ISD engine room. Use their own antimatter against them ^_^

Just a rant....But couldn't you technically build 2 huge holoemitters(which in the ST universe could actually generate things that can effect people) and stick them onto ships which would fly in tandem and if anything ever got between them they would simply create a solid bar between them and destroy anything in between? Granted this would take insane amounts of power, but wouldn't it be possible? Well, that was some weird Idea I just made up....

tired...... sleep... later
~bored2001

danielnsmith

04-19-2000, 09:16 AM

O.K., since everyone likes to bring in obsure resourses for this subject, I should bring in information from the game Star Fleet Battles (http://www.starfleetgames.com).

Point of fact: Phasers are not lasers and can be used in warp combat.

Point of fact: The Enterprise-D is a flag ship of the a Federation Fleet, not just a diplomatic barge. As a flagship, it has to be designed as part of the combat line.

If the Enterprise was to engage in combat knowingly, as indicated by the original question, then it would do so at warp speeds. The Enterpises sensors are designed to engange targets in this mode, the ISD's sensors are not. The Enterpise warps in, unloads and alpha strike against the ISD and warps out without even slowing. The ISD sensor officer would only see two targets departing from the area.

While the ISD can microjump from here to enternity, the Enterprise would be able to take measurements on vectors and figure out where the ISD would show up. Anyways, if the ISD cannot sit still, it cannot hold territory.

As far as the TIE fighters are concerned, they'd be as useless as biplanes against nuclear carriers. For crying out loud, even the shuttles on the Enterprise are warpcapable.

No one ever said this was a Vader vs. Picard debate. We'll assume that there are halfway decent officers on both ships. The Enterprise commander would simply load up a shuttle with an antimatter bomb and warp it into the ISD. (If sub-light fighters can get in, the so can a shuttle.) Kiss the command tower and all it's sheild generators good bye.

As for the Stormtoopers versus Federation Marines, the money would have to go to the Fed Marines. The Stormtroopers armor is obviously for show because it's no good against something as simple as a three foot tall primitive teddy bear with a stick! At least the Fed Marines aren't encumbered by worthless armor.

Of course, since episode 1 determined that the force was connected to a person through a disease (microb), then the federation doctors would simply 'cure' it and the Sith and Jedi would be... normal?

But comparing the Enterprise and the ISD is like comparing apples to hamburgers. Everyone knows that the Battlestar Galactica would open a can of whoop ass on both of them. The BSG has a fighter compliment and is designed to take heavy damage. And, unlike the ISD, has weapons that can draw a firing resolution on a small, fast fighter. The BSG has weapons that can take on another capital ship with desisive results.

Of course, the ships from B5 should be thrown into the discussion. Is there anything else?

ThisNameForRent

04-19-2000, 03:03 PM

Points of note:
1. The federation doesn't HAVE marines. and I'm refering to as seen on the screen, since that was the defined source. If they DID have true marines, the Borg/ Dominion/ Cardassians/ etc wouldn't be the problems that they were. How they manage to occupy ANYPLACE without dedicated ground troops is beyond me.
2. the Ewoks in ROTJ won because of Guerrilla Tactics. If you doubt it, look at Vietnam. Besides, we don't see how many of the little buggers got blasted by Storm troopers (except 1) because of the Movie "Cute Factor" i.e. "mommy mommy, why are all the cute little teddies dying... <sniffle> WAH!!!!!!! BAMBI'S MOMMY IS DEAD!"
3. Phasers may not be lasers, but where did you ever get the idea that they can be used in warp? As far as I can recall (and if you know of another instance, please tell me), they have only been used at impulse speeds, and in anycase, ANY weapon where you can see it's front event horizon move FROM one point TO anothoer (i.e. from Enterprise to Romulan Warbird) moves slower than light and is therefore useless at FTL or Warp speeds. This also includes Turbolasers, Photorps, Quantorps, and other sundries.
4. Federation Sensors have trpuble penetrating dense materials. What do you think Imperial Starship Armor is? Tissue Paper? it's a dense metal, designed to stop major amounts of energy (Turbolasers), and no matter what anyone says, that's what sensors are, manipulated energy fields. Plus enterprise on repeated occasions while scanning Alien Ships has had trouble distinguishing internal features aside from "There are 3 humanoid lifesigns, but not sure what species."
5. Shuttlecraft maneuverable? <<snicker>> Maneuverable as an A-Wing? <<guffaw>> you poor duped fellow....
6.The flag ship of a fleet of thinly hulled, mostly designed for science vessels. A flagship designed for PR missions and to show off the UFP's Dedication to Peace. A Flagship that carries families and children. Vs a starship the size of a city, designed for planetary bombardment and occupation & for massive space combat. mmmhmmm... gee.. that's a tough one to call... hmmm... :rolleyes:

Since you mentioned that Straight Combat is the predefined scenario, One more point on Fed Technology. Yes, they may have better sensors. indeed they may have superb tracking systems. So what? ISD's aren't designed for dodging and weaving. They are designed for Command, Control and Bombardment. Before Enterprise was even in weapons range, they'd be dealing with a plethora of Fighters. SURE, they can track them all... But The Enterprise -D (assuming this is teh ship in question) has an upper & lower phaser array on the saucer, a belly array, and 3 Photorp Tubes (2 front 1 aft). This is what I have observed on teh show, and seems confirmed by what literature i have read through. Assuming they all fire at independent targets, this gives you 6 targets at a maximum per broadside. Phaser banks seem to take a few seconds to recharge, and photorps take a few to reload. ISD's carry a MINIMUM compliment of 72 fighters. Do the math... Enterprise has to hold her own for around 25-30 sec, assuming they hit on every shot (which, by observation, they won't) and kill on every shot (also by observation, they won't) All the while with the ISD closing into Gunnery Range.

By the time the ISD closes, assuming Enterprise's usual level of shot accuracy, they will have destroyed about half the fighters, but her shields, if not down, are at the breaking point from Turbolaser & warhead blasts from fighters and collisions with dying TIE's. Now there suddenly comes a Barrage of massed fire, an Alpha Strike from a Kilometer and a half long Warmonger. Enterprise tries to find a clear path to warp out, to lick her's wounds and regroup, or to try the infamous Picard Maneuver, but they are surrounded by fighters and debris that her overworked deflectors could never clear out of the way fast enough, and a warp speed collision is the last thing she needs.

More fighters die, but Enterprise's shields are long gone, and, while the ISD's shields are taking heavy damage from phasers and Photorps, the underlying armor is absorbing much of the splashover. Enterprise's comparitively eggshell thin hull plating is no match for the giant brute's pure fortitude in battle. Her warp core damaged from repeated hits, impulse down to almost nothing, Enterprise dies in a flame of glory, her explosion washing over the scarred plating of the ISD like water on a duck, and off just as easily. The Empire is once again victorious.

And far out on the edge of the system, the HMS Nike powers up her wedge and begins the long drive inwards as a 'cat claws a reinforced shoulder nervously...

Good Morrow to you all :)

tracer

04-19-2000, 04:14 PM

danielnsmith wrote:

O.K., since everyone likes to bring in obsure resourses for this subject, I should bring in information from the game Star Fleet Battles (http://www.starfleetgames.com).

I wouldn't use Star Fleet Battles as a model for Star Trek ship-to-ship combat, for these reasons:

Star Fleet Battles only covers starships of the Kirk/Spock era, e.g. the Constitution Class Enterprise NCC-1701 and the up-rated Enterprise Class NCC-1701-A from the first 6 movies. It does not even try to model starships from the later ST:TNG era, such as the Galaxy Class Enterprise NCC-1701-D under discussion in this thread.
All combat in Star Fleet Battles must take place at speeds below Warp 3.2 (TOS warpspeed scale). This contradicts not only ST:TNG, but a few battles in ST:TOS as well.
One 32-impulse-long turn in Star Fleet Battles, during which a ship may fire all of its weapons, bank and maneuver several times, engage tractor beams, send out a boarding party, etc., works out to last one-thirtieth of one second! (The scale of the game is 1 hex = 10,000 kilometers, and a speed of 1 hex per turn is equal to the speed of light. In real life, light travels at 300,000 kilometers per second. You do the math.)

tracer

04-19-2000, 04:58 PM

ThisNameForRent wrote:

3. Phasers may not be lasers, but where did you ever get the idea that they can be used in warp? As far as I can recall (and if you know of another instance, please tell me), they have only been used at impulse speeds, and in anycase, ANY weapon where you can see it's front event horizon move FROM one point TO anothoer (i.e. from Enterprise to Romulan Warbird) moves slower than light and is therefore useless at FTL or Warp speeds. This also includes Turbolasers, Photorps, Quantorps, and other sundries.

Photon torpedoes most definitely travel faster-than-light. This is confirmed in the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual, which has been used as the definitive technical reference for the Enterprise D since ST:TNG season 3.

6.The flag ship of a fleet of thinly hulled, mostly designed for science vessels.

Starfleet ships don't need heavily armored hulls, because their shields provide protection far superior to any material alloy. Unlike the so-called "shields" used by a certain Galactic Empire <snigger>.

Before Enterprise was even in weapons range, they'd be dealing with a plethora of Fighters.

Not if they closed to weapons range at warp speed.

Weirddave

04-19-2000, 05:43 PM

This is so silly, but what the hey, so am I.

Trek wins. Easilly, without even puting up shields. Trek battles frequently take place at warp speed. Trek weapons are designed to function FTL. SD weapons go slower than light. Thus, the Enterprise, ( or Voyager, or Defiant, or, even Grissom ) could repeatedly attack the SD w/o ever being in danger of a return hit. You can't hit a ftl target with a slower than light weapon. Shields are thus not needed. Shields are also variable as to what they repulse. The Feds always rotate shield frequencies when they encounter the Borg, so the Borg can't adapt. Why would a SD shields be set to repell transporter beams if they didn't know they existed? Beam a bit of antimater into the SD engine room, the explosion releases either the black hole containment system or the antimater containment system and the whole SD either collapses or explodes. ( both drives have been offered here) Micro bursts of hyperdrive? Can you say 'Picard manuver"? Now, I'm not saying that SW isn't entertaining, it is. But the technology shown is waaaay behind Trek technology. Same with the Death Star. It would be the equivelent of an Iowa class battleship. These can be sunk by a missile boat nowadays. Battleships have a range of 20 miles. Missile boats, over 100. It would never even get a shot off at the Trek ship, again 'cuz it couldn't fight FTL. And FWIW, Col. West, the guy who tried to assisinate the Klingon Chancellor at the end of ST6, was a Federation Marine.

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Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.
_____________________________________________
Relax, I'm not as Dave as I look!- A Wallified sig!

SPOOFE

04-19-2000, 07:25 PM

All righty, I promised myself I wouldn't bring this up, but others have forced my hand...

There's been much saying that Star Trek technology is "way advanced" comapred too Star Wars. I don't see how that basis comes up. Sure, everything looks clean and sterilized and perfect and everything... so what? Logic dictates otherwise. Here's my line of reasoning...

Technology in Star Trek is the result of, oh, 300 years of development? 400? Something like that.

Technology in Star Wars is the result of at least 25,000 years (the Old Republic lasted that long, and they had a lot of the basics that "modern" Star Wars has). See the difference?

Second, Ray shields, one of the two types of shields that most SW ships have, are designed to keep out just about any form of energy, be it cosmic radiation, gamma particles, energy weapons... and, most likely, transporter beams, unless transporter beams travel faster and are smaller than individual electrons, which I doubt.

Third, we're talking about a battle that's lasting for maybe thirty seconds. Shuttlecraft can be completely ignored since there probably wouldn't be any thought to use them, much less time for people to get in them, power them up, and take off.

Fourth, all of you who say that the Enterprise can go to warp and attack from there are ignoring the obvious flaw in that theory... THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TIME TO THINK OF IT. That theory assumes that the Enterprise crew has previous and precise knowledge of the ISD, its' intentions, its' layout, etc. The ISD, on the other hand, would see the Enterprise as a nifty haul of new loot.

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-SPOOFE

Bored2001

04-19-2000, 07:50 PM

The federation doesn't HAVE marines.

Yes they do. If you ever watched DS9 there are many instances of troop combat.

ANY weapon where you can see it's front event horizon move FROM one point TO anothoer (i.e. from Enterprise to Romulan Warbird) moves slower than light and is therefore useless

I guess a turbolaser doesn't move the speed of light either. OOps it's not a laser then!
It's effects people effects!

Federation Sensors have trpuble penetrating dense materials.
Yes.. dense materials KI-LOM-E-TERS thick OR alloys specifically designed to block sensors. What are the chances that an engineer will have inadvertantly designed such a material when federation scientists WHO HAVE SENSOR TECHNOLOGY can't?

Shuttlecraft maneuverable? <<snicker>> Maneuverable as an A-Wing? <<guffaw>> you poor duped fellow....

Pulling this from memory now...I seem to have an affinity for these useless facts but..

In the episode of the appearance of the Delta flyer Tom Paris specifically says that these shuttles were built for speed and maneuverability but not designed for comfort. These were type 2 shuttles I believe.

As for the squadrons of Tie fighters, surely you've got to be kidding me. Since on first assult they will obviously fly in packs while en route, all you'd need to do is program a single high yeild(high blast radius) warhead and launch it out the photon tubes are warpspeeds. Boom bye bye Tie fighter squadron.

~Bored2001
Damn... I must be bored ^_^

tracer

04-19-2000, 08:18 PM

SPOOFE Bo Diddly wrote:

Ray shields, one of the two types of shields that most SW ships have, are designed to keep out just about any form of energy, be it cosmic radiation, gamma particles, energy weapons...

But not Proton Torpedoes!

SPOOFE

04-19-2000, 09:14 PM

Particle shields, the other of the two types of shields that an ISD has, will do nicely to keep torpedoes out, be they proton, photon, quantum, or whatever.

Also, to address the "armor can't scramble sensors" issue... the armoring on a Star Destroyer is really thick, and really dense. Plus, there are miles of hallways, acres of storage rooms, and plenty of small crawlways and ventilation shafts. Scanning all that so that it'd produce any worthwhile information would take several hours, at least. THIS IS AN ENCOUNTER THAT PROBABLY WON'T LAST FOR MORE THAN A COUPLE MINUTES.

Also, it isn't Federation policy to launch a full-scale sensor sweep of a newly encountered ship. Such action would violate the Prime Directive. Remember... the Federation has VERY strict protocols to follow when encountering a ship like this, and preparing a quantum torpedo to take out a flight of fighters or going to warp and attacking from high speeds are not among them. The Star Destroyer commander would have no such limitations... he's free to engage any time he wants for any reason he wants.

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-SPOOFE

Kvallulf

04-19-2000, 10:01 PM

HAHAHAAHA DS9 ground combat scenes are soooo pathetic. I mean really, they had Nog in combat. Who teaches those guys how to fight? Federation Marines are no match for Stormtroopers anyday, at any time. Of course that is just my opinion.

ThisNameForRent

04-19-2000, 10:46 PM

In response to Bored:
Yes, you see Ground combat. But NO they are not marines. If you watch, they are always Starfleet officers, usually Yellow Shirted Security people or starship crewmen who get caught in the action. Else why would Captain Sisco always have to lead assaults instead of having a nice Marine Colonel to do it for him, the way a proper military would do it? and who would let NOG fight?!?!?! Federation "Ground Troops" are just fleet officers who get pulled from stations, handed a phaser and told to shoot bad guys. Besides, they are, you have to admit, pretty pathetic at it.

We already established (see page 1)that Turbolasers are a high energy weapon that acts as a solid projectile type weapon. WHat we are seeing is probably excess energy burnoff (what are effects? <muhahahaha> ) doesn't reallyt matter i suppose in the long run. Laser may simply be an archaic hold over term, like the Mobile in Mobile Home or the Intelligence in Military Intelligence :P

Alien Ship hulls aren't "KI-LOM-E-TERS" thick, nor are most alloys specifically designed to stop sensors. rather on several occasions, Enterprise had trouble due to heavy armor. Hell they had trouble scanning the insides of romulan warbirds through their tinfoil hulls from few hundred km off.

Tom Paris can say what he wants. Designed for speed and maneuverability as opposed to a STARSHIP doesn't mean they cando a tight Immelman. As for High yield warheads, The federation obviously doen';t have them, otherweise why didn't they USE them at those minor little skirmishes like WOLF 359 or The defense of earth in ST:FC? strikes me that if they'd have high yield explosive devices anyplace, it'd be earth, and yet the borg still got through...

As for all of you who keep saying that trek Battles repeatedly take place at warp speeds, i'm still waiting for eamples, instances, regular occurances of this....

As for not being able to hit an FTL target with an STL weapon, you certaily can... same way submarines hit things with torpedoes... Firing solutions... you predict where your opponent will be, and fire THERE (It's called PHYSICS...<gasp> )

And tracer, If the federation shields are so fantastic, why is it that they get hit by something and their shield lvls drop by 15-30%? Give me Durasteel armor ANY DAY. and torps don't move faster than light, otherwise they would hit their target before we see them hit it. And that doesn't happen, does it?

May the Scoobyness be with you :)

Weirddave

04-20-2000, 12:15 AM

As for not being able to hit an FTL target with an STL weapon, you certaily can... same way submarines hit things with torpedoes... Firing solutions... you predict where your opponent will be, and fire THERE (It's called PHYSICS...<gasp> )

Honestly, do you have any clue about what you're talking about? To wit: An object cannot move FTL in an einsteinian universe. Both SW and ST go outside normal space to exceed the speed of light, SW with hyperspace and ST with warp space. The difference is that ST ships can fight either in warp space or in normal space. SW ships can't. For examples, just think of almost any Borg episode. The Enterprise jumps to maximum warp. The cube follows. Both ships exchange fire while in warp. Launching an attack anywhere in normal space isn't going to touch a ship in warp space or hyperspace.

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Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.
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Relax, I'm not as Dave as I look!- A Wallified sig!

Bored2001

04-20-2000, 12:44 AM

I'd first have to say this discussion is stupid... but onto the point anyway

Plus, there are miles of hallways, acres of
storage rooms, and plenty of small crawlways and ventilation shafts. Scanning all that so
that it'd produce any worthwhile information would take several hours, at least.

Um voyager's computer can do something along the lines of 2 trillion calculations per second. What would you say the flagship of the federation could do? Not to mention having DATA as an asset.

But NO they are not marines.

Of course not, but every single member of starfleet from cadet to admiral has had combat training.

nor are most alloys specifically designed to
stop sensors.

And you would assume this by what?

rather on several occasions, Enterprise had trouble due to heavy armor.

Hrm.. from races that had sensor technology?

they had trouble scanning the insides of romulan warbirds

Thanks for the example. It would make sense that they would be hard to scan since they
1) Know/have Sensor technology
2) Would be a tactical advantage
3) Are a very secretive race

Tom Paris can say what he wants. Designed for speed and maneuverability as opposed to a STARSHIP doesn't mean they cando a tight Immelman

Wtf is a Immelman?

and who says? The delta flyer is damn maneuverable and so I the defiant class warship. Why not a ship that was specifically designed to do just that?

As for High yield warheads, The federation obviously doen';t have them,

Yes they have them. Voyager vs species 8479(wow I remembered that number...) They blasted a who squadron of their organic ships with several torpedos including one which was calibrated to be high yeild.

Why they use them so sparingly is totally beyond me. Probably so that you don't just end battles with a single blast.

torps don't move faster than light, otherwise they would hit their target before we see
them hit it. And that doesn't happen, does it?

Wouldn't be very visually stunning if we just had battles where the other ship explodes. They do that so that they can make it look good.

~bored2001

SPOOFE

04-20-2000, 12:44 AM

Hyperspace is coterminous with realspace. This has been pretty much set as a standard. Objects with mass create a mass shadow that can destroy a ship in hyperspace.

I don't know how it is with warp. To my knowledge, the point has never come up to any great extent. However, if things in warp aren't able to affect things in "realspace" (I forget the term used in ST, so I'll use the one used in SW) and vice versa, then the Enterprise couldn't go to warp and attack the Star Destroyer from there, anyway. The way it's described above, weapons can be used in warp all right, but only against other ships in warp. And I've never seen a Star Destroyer go to warp. So that's the end of that line of reasoning. Anybody got anything else to prove or disprove this?

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-SPOOFE

Bored2001

04-20-2000, 12:47 AM

You could still stop and go. Warp outa range. fire, go into warp once again pop out into a different spot and repeat. The isd would have no way to track you since they don't have any sensors designed to pick up warp signatures.

SPOOFE

04-20-2000, 12:53 AM

The main computer isn't what's doing the scanning of the Star Destroyer, the scanners are (oh, man, I feel ill for having to point out something so blatantly obvious). The main computer only takes the information gathered by the sensors and analyzes the data into a readable "printout" of sorts. The sensors can only do so much so fast... it's not a matter of calculations per second, it's a matter of the scanners peaking through a very dense metal to the huge maze of hallways, rooms, piping, electrical systems, life signs, etc. inside... meaning it'd take a long, long time for the sensors to find the bridge or any other crucial systems. Add to that the fact that most of the Star Destroyer's systems would be completely unknown to the Enterprise, and you lose almost any possibility of the Enterprise finding any crucial systems to hit in time.

And Data, contrary to popular belief, isn't some sort of invincible Swiss-Army-Knife. There's only so much he can do. Just because he's sitting at the sensor board, it doesn't mean the sensors can... well... sense any faster.

Bored2001

04-20-2000, 01:40 AM

The Enterprise scanned a borg cube in a matter of seconds. But I do concede the fact that the SD's systems are probably totally foreign.

FYI, I was talking about Data as an analyzer of the data that the computer processes.

Chef Troy

04-20-2000, 10:03 AM

Boy, have we reached Nerdvana here or what?

*grin to show I'm kidding*

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Live a Lush Life
Da Chef

ThisNameForRent

04-20-2000, 10:32 AM

To wierddave,
Gee, thanks for pointing that out, kind of settles that whole "Enterprise blasts past at warp 9 firing all guns" hypothesis. And just so you know, I do know what i'm talking about. I was simply trying to counter that theory without actually going into warp field theory (which, by the way, currently says that yes you CAN hit something going FTL, assuming you know it's course vectors, velocity along those vectors. And yes, and Object can move FTL in einsteinian space. the reason it's called WARP theory is that you warp the space around youto make it possible. And it all obeys einstein. so bugger off :P )

Bored: It' Species 8472 (you DIDN'T remember the number) If you don't know what an Immelman is, well... then maneuverability isn't especially an area of expertise for you. Not mine either, but you do learn about maneuverability in in flight mechanics and aerodynamics.

And Bored, the day the average someone who has had "combat training" in the academy is as good as the average someone who spends all day practicing how to take other sentient beings apart with their bare hands, I will personally fall onto the floor in convulsions. Don't believe me? Get the captain of a Navy Carrier and a Marine in a room and have them go at one another. I bet I can tell you who will walk out. And it 's not gonna be the Navy Captain.

In any case, all of this is academia. :P because, as stated, NONE OF IT IS REAL. they are ACTORS. <hears some poor nerd somewhere scream as his mind's perceptions shatter>

Now Glaxy Quest, THAT was real.
<muhahahaha>

Get Crazy withe the Cheez Whiz :)

Weirddave

04-20-2000, 10:46 AM

NameForRent, I ment my "don't know what your talking about" comment to be taken with a grain of salt. NONE of us know what we're talking about, these things aren't real!! :D :D Sorry if the irony didn't come across on the screen. Now, on a lighter note. You said:. I was simply trying to counter that theory without actually going into warp field theory (which, by the way, currently says that yes you CAN hit something going FTL, assuming you know it's course vectors, velocity along those vectors. And yes, and Object can move FTL in einsteinian space. the reason it's called WARP theory is that you warp the space around you to make it possible. And it all obeys einstein. so bugger off :P ) Do you have a source for this. ( OMG IM AM SUCH A GEEK!!!!) I always understood Warp space to be "otherspace" or a realm of space where Einstein DOES NOT apply. Just so you know, I am very familiar with ST mythos, not so much with SW mythos. Maybe that's a SW idea, and so I am not sure of the details.

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Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.
_____________________________________________
Relax, I'm not as Dave as I look!- A Wallified sig!

tracer

04-20-2000, 01:47 PM

ThisNameForRent wrote:

And tracer, If the federation shields are so fantastic, why is it that they get hit by something and their shield lvls drop by 15-30%?[QUOTE]

Because they're getting hit with STAR TREK weapons, which do far more damage than any of your puny Star Wars turbolasers can. :p

[QUOTE]and torps don't move faster than light, otherwise they would hit their target before we see them hit it. And that doesn't happen, does it?

By that logic, Star Destroyers' turbolaser beams travel at only a few thousand miles per hour, since that's how fast they appear to be travelling in the movies. Even a NASA Space Shuttle could dodge something that slow.

If you want to retcon the known properties of photon torpedoes (as listed in the official ST:TNG Tech Manual) with the special effects we see on the show, you could say that we're not really "seeing" the torpedo itself as it travels through space at FTL velocities anymore than we're "seeing" the stars receding behind the Enterprise while it's moving at warp speed. You could say that the viewscreen (or the special effects artist) "draws" images of objects that are receding FTL, based on sensor data. (Star Trek sensors emit subspace broadcasts, which travel even faster than a ship at high warp.)

Kvallulf

04-20-2000, 04:20 PM

Answer this, in the Star trek movie with the borg queen, ole Picard goes into the Holo suite and grabs a thompson machine gun and kills some borg. WTF happened to their shields? Can't the shields stop projectile rounds?

The Ryan

04-20-2000, 06:32 PM

[quote]you CAN hit something going FTL, assuming you know it's course vectors, velocity along those vectors. [/

The Ryan

04-20-2000, 06:37 PM

Hmm, somehow the MB thought I wanted to submit my response before i actually did.

you CAN hit something going FTL, assuming you know it's course vectors, velocity along those vectors.
In combat, why would a ship have constant velocity? Isn't evaive action one of the first actions taken?

Of course, all this stuff about technology isn't important, since the Empire would leave a bay-door-that-happens-to-be-right-next-to-the-main-engine-room open, a Federation shuttle would fire into the opening, and kablooey. Or something similar.

Monster104

04-20-2000, 08:36 PM

First of all, a shuttle can't just fire into the main hangar bay...it's shields (Why does everyone forget that a Star Destroyer's shields actually work as opposed to the shields in Star Trek?) would stop any phaser blast. Another thing: The hangar is not right next the main engine room. The engine compartment (well, not the secondary or tertiary rooms) is located in the aft section of the ship beneath layers upon layers of armor, whereas the landing bays are more towards the front middle of the ship.

Another thing that's been bugging me...everyone says that turbolasers would not be effective against ST shields. Well, how do you know phasers would be effective against SW shields?

Also, we keep forgetting proton torpedoes and ion cannons from the Star Destroyer, as well as the gunboats, TIE bombers, Skipray blastboats, and Gamma shuttles (Which would be major threats to shuttles and the Enterprise because they have missiles, torpedoes, mines, bombs...and explosives are proven to work against ST shields).

One more thing and I will be done. Those large spheres on top of the Star Destroyer's bridge are not the shield generators for the whole ship, but rather deflector shields as a second protective measure for the bridge. Imperial researches realized the main shields were not impervious to all forms of attack and therefore included this second set of shields to protect this vital area.

tracer

04-20-2000, 08:53 PM

Monster104 wrote:

(Why does everyone forget that a Star Destroyer's shields actually work as opposed to the shields in Star Trek?)

Because they don't. X-wing fighters have deflectors, and one direct hit from a puny little TIE fighter's guns is enough to blast an X-wing into fiery dust.

Another thing that's been bugging me...everyone says that turbolasers would not be effective against ST shields. Well, how do you know phasers would be effective against SW shields?

See above.

Also, we keep forgetting proton torpedoes and ion cannons from the Star Destroyer, as well as the gunboats, TIE bombers, Skipray blastboats, and Gamma shuttles

Which would never be able to hit the Enterprise while it was flying at warp speed.

tracer

04-20-2000, 08:57 PM

The Ryan wrote:

quote
--------------------------------------------
you CAN hit something going FTL, assuming you know it's course vectors, velocity along those vectors.
--------------------------------------------

In combat, why would a ship have constant velocity? Isn't evaive action one of the first actions taken?

Gunners firing projectiles that move more slowly than their target could still hit a target maneuvering erratically, provided they got continuous, instantaneous updates of its position and velocity, and they got lucky.

Which bring up the following issue: Can a Star Destroyer track a target while the target is moving faster-than-light?

SPOOFE

04-20-2000, 09:09 PM

People, people, people... the "Enterprise can go to warp to avoid getting hit" theory has already been completely debunked. Unless you feel like bringing in some new information that hasn't already been posted on this thread, of course.

I have NEVER EVER EVER EVER seen the Enterprise go to warp to take out a Romulan Warbird or a Borg Cube or whatever. SO IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN, OKAY?!? Sheesh... some people, they get a thought in their head and it just won't go away...

Second, Federation shuttles should be considered null and void for this entire encounter, since it takes quite a while for a shuttle to be prepped, primed, and ready to launch. So give up on the "well, maybe a shuttle can do THIS... or THAT..."

Finally... I think there's a significant difference between an X-wing and a Star Destroyer. If you notice, in "A New Hope", there're several laser blasts fired at an X-wing before it finally goes boom. So that's another line of reasoning that's dead.

Which leaves the Pro-Enterprise argument (as far as this thread is concerned) with what...? Data at a sensor board? Face the likelihood, people... the Enterprise is toast.

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-SPOOFE

tracer

04-20-2000, 09:26 PM

SPOOFE Bo Diddly wrote:

I have NEVER EVER EVER EVER seen the Enterprise go to warp to take out a Romulan Warbird or a Borg Cube or whatever.

Then you haven't been paying attention.

In the very first episode of ST:TNG ever, the Enterprise D fired photon torpedoes at the Q forcefield that was following it, while it was travelling at warp 9.7.

In the first-ever episode with the Borg, the Enterprise D fired phasers and photorps at a Borg cube that was also chasing them at warp speed.

In the OLD Star Trek series, for crying out loud, the Enterprise was chasing a Gorn vessel at Warp 8 and was locking weapons onto it (episode "Arena"), and the Enterprise was shown engaging in wargames with other Constitution-class starships, firing its phasers at them while at warp 5+ (episode "The Ultimate Computer").

Finally... I think there's a significant difference between an X-wing and a Star Destroyer. If you notice, in "A New Hope", there're several laser blasts fired at an X-wing before it finally goes boom. So that's another line of reasoning that's dead.

Porkins (Red Six) had his X-wing go down quite nicely as the result of a single hit. Red Leader fared likewise.

Monster104

04-20-2000, 11:16 PM

If you watch when TIE fighters engage an X-Wing, a near constant laser stream is fired (kinda like a machine gun). More than one of these lasers hits the x-wing, although in the film it only shows the fatal shot.

Snubfighters in the SW universe do not have shields that "absorb" energy, like the shields of capital ships. Since they have much smaller power generators, their shields "deflect" laser blasts, and cannot absorb much energy. A solid, direct hit from a TIE's lasers could bring down the shields, with the next shot in the laser stream able to destroy the x-wing.

In another of these posts, I noticed confusion about "turbolasers" and the effectiveness of lasers on the Enterprise's shields. Turbolasers do not use light-energy, but are instead plasma energy.

One more thing...the Star Wars encyclopedia describes a proton torpedo as a "proton scattering energy warhead". I'm no nuclear genius, but I know that if protons are scattered, doesn't that mean stuff blown up by a proton torpedo turn into hydrogen gas?
Photon torpedoes work by light-energy, proton torpedoes work by nuclear energy. Gee...which do you think would be more powerful??

SPOOFE

04-20-2000, 11:25 PM

Tracer, have you even read the rest of this thread? I already said that, yes, the Enterprise sure can fire weapons while in warp... AT OTHER TARGETS THAT ARE ALSO IN WARP. A Star Destroyer can't go to "warp". So give it a rest.

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-SPOOFE

Bored2001

04-20-2000, 11:43 PM

Warp outside of the SD's range. Fire a volley. Go into warp, make a full circle reappear somewhere else. Later rinse repeat.

ThisNameForRent

04-21-2000, 12:36 AM

Wierddave:
s'ok... i was dealing with a rather upsetting programming issue, and didn't mean to snap your head off. It was a symposium by NASA a few months ago (sorry, I don't have the brochure anymore, so can't be more specific)

Tracer:
if you know all those instances, you REALLY need to get out more my friend. turn off the TV and go outside... and it's called SUNLIGHT.

As for tehg rest of you all, while i'll still look in, I have realized it is the weekend soon, so I am going to go, LARP, watch anime, maybe even try to get a GF again. and NOT WORRY ABOUT THIS CRAP :P
<mwahahahahaha><runs off yaulping into the hills>

Heigh-Ho Donkey Balls, AWAY!
:)

Monster104

04-21-2000, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by Bored2001:
Warp outside of the SD's range. Fire a volley. Go into warp, make a full circle reappear somewhere else. Later rinse repeat.

Yes, that's a nice theoretical tactic you've developed. First problem: It takes continuous poundings on a Star Destroyer's shields to even get them to flicker to 99% (And in Star Wars, ships do not get damaged until their shields are at 0%, unlike Star Trek where ships will get serious damage to engines, reactors, replicators, tractor beams, etc., even when the shields are "holding" at 60%). Second problem: Starfleet regulations prohibit them from first strike operations against unknown contacts. Third problem: The flight officers probably aren't smart enough to devise that tactic until they realize the Star Destroyer doesn't have the same warp technology. Imperial commanders, on the other hand, are trained to take advantage of every situation. It's not uncommon for Imperial forces to promise goodwill and then turn around and stab right in the back. Think of the possibilities of the peaceful Federation trying to become friends with a treacherous Empire (This is all assuming they have never encountered before).

Nice argument on the surface, Bored, but it has no real merit to it.

Argeable

04-21-2000, 01:12 AM

Well, I haven't read everything, and I'm no trekkie, but the ISD would dominate.
Think about it: 1.8 kilometers long, 18000 men on board (5000 troops, which outnumbers all ofthe enterprises crew, so cross transportation off the list) and something like 256 turbo laser, alon with a proportional number of ion cannons.
Compared to two oversized phasers and a dinky photon torpedo? Ha, I think not. And afterall, we all know Darth Vader could take down Pricard (or Kirk, for that matter) any day of the week. One handed. Sorry, but it's just an unfair question: humanity in 350 years vs. "a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away". I don't think so.
~Dan

Bored2001

04-21-2000, 01:31 AM

Well, who says that the enterprise would be destroyed by the first Volley? It is standard procedure to attempt first contact WITH SHEILDS UP. Sizing up such a vessal and obviously determining if the Enterpise could possibly destroy it in a straight fight is also part of standard procedure. When the first volley is unleashed and the enterprise is still alive it would simply warp away in retreat(even if it was warp 1 for all I care..) The SD would have no clue where they went. They could take a week or so and complete repairs while they devise the prementioned strategy(obviously since they didn't pursure them in warp).

~Bored2001.

SPOOFE

04-21-2000, 01:39 AM

Bored's and Tracer's arguments would be perfectly sound if the Federation and the Empire had a relationship akin to the Federation and the Romulans'... but they don't. All those plans of "going to warp and firing a volley of.. etc. etc." wouldn't come up. It's very easy to think "they could do THIS, or they could do THIS..." while you're posting to a message board... (and I know this was a question of imagination, but there are certain boundaries to keep ourselves in)... but in the heat of battle, where you're constantly taking a pounding, you're too concerned about pressing the "fire" button to think of wild and unconventional tactics like that on the fly.

Also, for any future posts, I think that for the sake of this argument we should assume that the weapons/shielding of these two ships are roughly comparable... that is, we really can't say that phasers are a thousand times stronger than turbolasers, or vice versa, since we really have no basis for comparison. I know this point hasn't really come up yet, but it just occurred to me that it could bring about trouble in the future.

Also, I think it'd be cool if some of you other 'Dopers out there posted your own personal imaginary scenarios for this... particularly scenarios that have both crews briefly instructed on the nature of their foes (a scenario which would give the Enterprise a chance to try out unconventional warfare). I mean whole scenarios, not just "they could do this or that..."

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-SPOOFE

Esprix

04-21-2000, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by SPOOFE Bo Diddly:

It's very easy to think "they could do THIS, or they could do THIS..." while you're posting to a message board... (and I know this was a question of imagination, but there are certain boundaries to keep ourselves in)... but in the heat of battle, where you're constantly taking a pounding, you're too concerned about pressing the "fire" button to think of wild and unconventional tactics like that on the fly.

First of all, isn't that we're all doing, including you? They could do this or could do that? We're talking science fiction, so everything, including the tech specs, are open to interpretation. Give it a rest - we've already figured out you like Star Wars better than Star Trek. :rolleyes:

Secondly, the Star Trek folks are known for making up stuff "on the fly," not just firing at will. The Picard Maneuver, for example, was thought up in the heat of a conflict with the Ferengi. Beaming O'Brien through another Starfleet vessel's older-type shields was thought up quite spontaneously. Of course, we're talking about dramatic license here, but it seems to me if you compare the two scripted universes, ST is far more creative than SW.

If your posit is that their technology is generally equal, then SW has the brawn and ST has the brains, and given the two, I think brains would win.

I mean, they could... :)

Esprix

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Evidently, I rock.
Ask the Gay Guy! (http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html)

Monster104

04-21-2000, 01:11 PM

Ok...assuming the Enterprise could fire at the ISD at warp speeds...they would be able to get, what, one shot before they're hundreds of thousands of miles away? Yes, they could repeat this process, but at most they could get a phaser shot and a photon torpedo shot off on each pass. Like I said earlier, this type of strategy would not be able to take down the shields of the ISD, let alone destroy it. Granted, it will keep the Enterprise from being obliterated.

The ISD captain would try to devise tactics to counter this, but without warp capabilities that could be quite difficult. If anything, they would either A) Call in reinforcements to help track the Enterprise(Which, since hyperspace is way faster than the fastest warp speed, would get there in just a few minutes), or B) Just leave (again, since hyperspace is way faster, the Enterprise could not keep up).

tracer

04-21-2000, 03:39 PM

Monster104 wrote:

Ok...assuming the Enterprise could fire at the ISD at warp speeds...they would be able to get, what, one shot before they're hundreds of thousands of miles away?

Um, the Enterprise's weapons have ranged of hundreds of thousands of miles. The ST:TNG Tech Manual, page 130 lists the maximum range of a photon torpedo as "nearly 3,500,000 kilometers from the starship."

In fact, come to think of it, maybe the Enterprise doesn't have to fly away at FTL speeds to avoid getting hit. What's the maximum range of a Star Destroyer's weapons? A few thousand kilometers? Ten or twenty thousand kilometers, perhaps? The Enterprise could stand off at 100,000 or 1,000,000 kilometers and shoot at the Star Destroyer from there. With its warp drive, or even its impulse engines, Enterprise would have no problem keeping that range constant, unless the Star Destroyer went into hyperspace or did a hyperspace microjump and caught the Enterprise off-guard.

And speaking of hyperspace:

If anything, they would either A) Call in reinforcements to help track the Enterprise(Which, since hyperspace is way faster than the fastest warp speed, would get there in just a few minutes), or B) Just leave (again, since hyperspace is way faster, the Enterprise could not keep up).

Just how fast is hyperspace travel in the Star Wars universe? The only indications we have in the movies about how fast a "fast ship" can go are from Han Solo bragging about the Millennium Falcon in Episode IV. He says it made the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs (a parsec being a unit of interstellar distance, not time), and that it'll do point-five past lightspeed (point five what?).

Weirddave

04-21-2000, 03:52 PM

What I find interesting is the way a SW fan bristles at any notion that SW couldn't beat anything anywhere. It seems quite obvious to me that the technology used in ST is superior to SW technology. This is in no way a condemnation of SW, just a statement of fact. I mean, John Paul Jones was a great ship captain, but put his ship up against the USS Iowa and he loses every time. It says nothing about his abilities or bravery, he would just be unable to compete with modern weapons. Same withe SW. They are very enjoyable movies, but the technology just dosen't compare. There's no shame in that, it's just the way things are, and dosen't lessen SW in any way.

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Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.
_____________________________________________
Relax, I'm not as Dave as I look!- A Wallified sig!

sixseatport

04-21-2000, 04:47 PM

The basic difference between SW and ST, as I see it, is in the physical laws governing each separate universe. To wit:

Matter-energy conversion (a la transporters) is not physically possible in the SW universe. I posted a link to a SW technical discussion a while back, in which this is explicitly stated (this is based on SW canon).

ST doesn't have 'the Force.' Note that 'the Force' is NOT telepathy or telekinesis, thus Troi or Spock or whoever wouldn't be able to do a thing to any jedi -- and probably vice versa.

Basically, we're comparing apples and oranges here. If you really want to be clear about all of this, you'd have to state where the encounter was going to occur (which universe).

That being said:
'Hyperspace' and 'Warp drive' are probably the same thing, just descibed differently, with different methods of using them. If you check out descriptions of both throughout SW and ST canon, you'll find that they are startlingly similar -- although the character's understanding of the phenomenon in each universe is different. The only significant difference between the two that I've ever found is in the distances that can be traversed: ST takes a couple hours to get from one star to another; SW take a couple days to get clear across the entire galaxy.

Note that no where in SW is it ever said that ships can't do a Picard-like maneouver -- in fact, I seem to recall reading descriptions of things like that in some of the SW novels.

One more thing, for the trekkies, before you make the blanket statement that ST technology is far more advanced than SW tech, go check out that link I posted earlier in the thread. I don't remember exactly where it is, but it's somewhere on www.theforce.net (http://www.theforce.net)

Happy hunting.

tracer

04-21-2000, 04:51 PM

I hate to admit it, but I'm starting to become a convert to the Star Wars side of the fence on this issue.

The thing that's swaying my vote is something I hadn't heard of until this thread. Namely, that a Star Destroyer is capable of performing something called a "hyperspace microjump". You see, my argument about the Enterprise's tactical sup[eriority centered on its ability to fight while moving faster-than-light. My favorite tactic was to have the Enterprise back up at warp 2 and lob photon torpedoes at the Star Destroyer until it blew up. However, if a Star Destroyer can "jump" precisely-calculated short distances through hyperspace, AND IF it can open fire immediately after completing the hyperjump (I'm talking less than a tenth of a second later), the Star Destroyer could microjump to a position just behind (and slightly to one side of) the Enterprise while it was backing up and open fire on its anticipated position. The crew of the Enterprise would not have enough time to react, and, if the Empire's targeting is as good as they like to boast it is, the turbolaser beams (or ion cannon pulses, or light sabers thrown overboard, or whatever the hell it is they shoot in the Star Wars universe) will intersect the Enterprise.

Now, the question remains of exactly how much damage the Enterprise will take from a turbolaser bolt. I'm sure turbolasers are very powerful, but there's a much more important factor to consider here. That is: Every time a starship on Star Trek is hit by anything -- whether it's a teensy tinsy little plasma flare, or the superweapon NOMAD fired at them in "The Changeling" (Spock said NOMAD's weapon had the equivalent power of 90 photon torpedoes), or the plasma torpedoes fired by the outer defenses of the V'Ger cloud, or the antiproton beam fired by the planet-crushing horn of plenty in "The Doomsday Machine" -- every single time the good guy's ship is hit, it loses from 20-60 percent of its shields. Period. Apparently nothing can bring down the shields in a single hit. Apparently, also, nothing is so small and insignificant that it does not damage the shields at all. This applies not just to every individual weapon hitting the ship, but to every separate volley of weapons fire.

Therefore, no matter how many turbolasers or ion cannons the Star Destroyer fires at the Enterprise, and mo matter how powerful these weapons are, the Enterprise will lose 40% of its shields. ;)

Monster104

04-21-2000, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by tracer:
Just how fast is hyperspace travel in the Star Wars universe? The only indications we have in the movies about how fast a "fast ship" can go are from Han Solo bragging about the Millennium Falcon in Episode IV. He says it made the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs (a parsec being a unit of interstellar distance, not time)

There isn't any real explanation of how fast hyperspace travel is other than that it is "faster than light". However, in many of the novels it has instances of Imperial Star Destroyers, Mon Calamari Star Cruisers, and other large capital ships being able to jump from one end of the galaxy to the other in a matter of months, whereas in Voyager it's going to take them an estimated 80 years to get from one quadrant to another. This seems like a major difference in warp speeds to me.

The Kessel Run is a long story, but I have time. Kessel is the only producer of a drug called "Glitterstim spice". Smugglers ship this drug from Kessel to prospective markets. However, Kessel is surrounded by a blackhole cluster (Kessel is in a decaying orbit into one of the black holes). The Kessel Run is the route smugglers use past these black holes. If a ship not capable of a fast enough hyperspace (generally larger ships and freighters) gets too close to a black hole...Kablooie. The closer you are to a black hole means a shorter travel time, as well as saftey from Imperial inspectors. Flying the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs is significant in bragging about speed because it shows that the Millenium Falcon is faster than almost every other ship because he is one of the few that has been able to do it in less than 12 parsecs(The Millenium Falcon is supposedly the fastest ship in the rebel fleet).

The Enterprise could fire at distances, but the ISD could easily do a microjump at 10,000 kilometers (or more, or even less). The ISD would appear to have vansished for not even a second before it was right next to the Enterprise again. It can keep track of the Enterprise every time it goes to warp through simple trajectories. However, there is a tactic the ISD could use...it could microjump to one spot, then do a second microjump immedietly to come up behind the Enterprise, and immedietly fire several salvos of turbolasers (which are plasma energy, remember), ion cannons (which anyone has yet to address a counter for), and proton torpedoes. This would either disable or destroy the Enterprise (since they don't have to get through the shields completely, just get them down around 60% or so...man, what effective shields Star Trek has). If the ISD did not quite destroy the Enterprise, it still has 8 or so immensely powerful tractor beams it could use to anchor the Enterprise in one spot to finish the job.

Here's an interesting idea I just thought of...what would happen if an assault shuttle filled with troops attached itself to the hull of the Enterprise with landing claws (Like the Millenium Falcon on the Star Destroyer)?

tracer

04-21-2000, 05:06 PM

Ah, here we go. From http://theforce.net/swtc/hyperspace.html#microjumps :

Microjumps.

Short hyperspace hops are usually employed for the sake of reducing in-system travel times. Sublight travel between planets of a star system would take several hours, even at high relativistic speeds. High sublight speeds are undesirable for crew and sensors because of the time-dilation side-effects involved, and because inertial dampers might not be able to protect the ship's contents at high acceleration for prolonged periods.

Although microjumps of several light-hours are the norm, jumps of as little as several light minutes are possible with extremely careful calculation, as employed by Chewbacca in his assault at N'zoth during the Koornacht Cluster crisis.

According to this source, the shortest microjumps on record are on the order of a few light-minutes. No mention is made as to how precisely the exit from hyperspace can be placed, but it doesn't sound like a Star Destroyer would be able to microjump directly atop another ship, or even microjump to a specific place near another ship with enough knowledge of what their relative positions are going to be that they don't have to re-aim their weapons.

SPOOFE and Monster104, you both said that microjump maneuvers have been mentioned in many SW sourcebooks and/or novels. Does any of them talk about how accurately or quickly a microjump can be performed, or whether it could be used tactically to attack?

tracer

04-21-2000, 05:15 PM

Monster104 wrote:

If the ISD did not quite destroy the Enterprise, it still has 8 or so immensely powerful tractor beams it could use to anchor the Enterprise in one spot to finish the job.

What happens to a tractored object if it jumps into Hyperspace? Or, for that matter, if it goes to Warp?

SPOOFE

04-21-2000, 06:18 PM

I'll take these in order that they were posted....

Tracer, you poster this:

"In the very first episode of ST:TNG ever, the Enterprise D fired photon torpedoes at the Q forcefield that was following it, while it was travelling at warp 9.7.

In the first-ever episode with the Borg, the Enterprise D fired phasers and photorps at a Borg cube that was also chasing them at warp speed.

In the OLD Star Trek series, for crying out loud, the Enterprise was chasing a Gorn vessel at Warp 8 and was locking weapons onto it (episode "Arena"), and the Enterprise was shown engaging in wargames with other Constitution-class starships, firing its phasers at them while at warp 5+ (episode "The Ultimate Computer")."

NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THOSE INSTANCES YOU DESCRIBED MENTIONS A SHIP IN WARP BEING CAPABLE OF FIRING AT A SHIP NOT IN WARP. Why should I provide evidence that you should have already brought up?

Second, I'm not bristling "at any notion that SW couldn't beat anything anywhere" (a statement that can also be said of ST fans at times). I've taken the knowledge that I know about both of these Sci-Fi series and creating a likely encounter between these two ships. My scenario is posted earlier in this thread. Every thing I say about these two ships battling is being based on that scenario, and I'm assuming that anyone else who posts is basing their idea on that same scenario. If you want a different scenario, THEN POST A DIFFERENT SCENARIO. Sheesh. That's like the third time I've said that.

Third: Microjumps. In "The Black Fleet Crisis", Chewbacca uses a microjump to get right up next to a Super Star Destroyer. His starting point was well outside the system (and I think it was a light-half-minute for that). So a microjump, while probably not good for a surgical strike, isn't something that's totally random, either. And a Star Destroyer is, admittedly, quite larger than the Millenium Falcon (but also has more reliable targetting and trajectory computers, too). So I'd say that, at the very least, a Star Destroyer would be able to pull up within firing and tractor beam range pretty damn quickly.

Finally, a tractored ship can't go anywhere. While I don't know the exact science behind it (but that's no big thing... nobody knows the exact science behind any of this), I can safely assume that, in both SW and ST, they provide a counter-force in the direction that the tractor beam is being projected from (like an energy lasso). If the tractor beam is strong enough, it'd be able to completely immobilize its' target or even pull it back.

Now, nobody knows exactly how much counter-force the Star Destroyers' tractor beams are (they're strong enough to lasso a Corvette, but those are smaller than the Enterprise), and I'm sure that the Enterprise would be able to break the lock of a single tractor beam relatively easily... eight tractor beams, however, would take a while. So, at the very least, tractor beams (the Star Destroyer always has system stations like those manned and active, along with shields, comm, helm, weapons, etc.) would be able to delay any sort of evasion on the part of the Enterprise for a minute or so, at least.

Of course, something just occurred to me... in my scenario, I said that the captain of the Star Destroyer would probably be capable of detecting new technology on the Enterprise, thus prompting him to destroy the ship to salvage it. Another likely scenario would be he'd disable the Enterprise with ion cannons and board the ship. Now, I think it'd be a pretty good guess that ion cannons would be effective against the Enterprise (even in Star Wars, where the weapons are pretty common, they don't have any sort of countermeasure for them). So there's a chance (slight chance, I know, but it'd be interesting) that the crew would be able to arrange some sort of ambush on the inside of the Enterprise. While it probably won't be very effective (9700 stormtroopers vs. how many Starfleet personnel there are on the ship?), if this were a movie, it'd be pretty damn cool.

And another thing that just occurred to me... the Enterprise can separate the two sections. I think I read somewhere that they're supposed to do this anyway at the first sign of danger (or something like that... but I'm not certain), so suddenly the ISD has two targets.

Finally (I'm sorry to you all for typing so much) I'm pretty sure that the Enterprise would easily be able to escape... as would the ISD... since neither can track the other in their respective faster-than-light status. And with that, I'm gonna stop typing so much and give my poor fingers a rest.

------------------
-SPOOFE

tracer

04-21-2000, 09:59 PM

SPOOFE Bo Diddly wrote:

NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THOSE INSTANCES YOU DESCRIBED MENTIONS A SHIP IN WARP BEING CAPABLE OF FIRING AT A SHIP NOT IN WARP. Why should I provide evidence that you should have already brought up?

Because your contention that the Enterprise D CAN'T shoot at sublight targets while at warp speed is an UNREASONABLE ASSUMPTION. We know the Enterprise can shoot at faster-than-light targets while travelling at warp. We know that the Enterprise can shoot at faster-than-light targets while travelling at sublight speeds. We know that the Enterprise can shoot at sublight targets while travelling at sublight speeds.

The Enterprise has never been shown firing at a sublight target while at warp speed only because the situation has never come up. It is reasonable to assume that, since photon torpedoes travel faster-than-light in normal Einsteinian space via warp drive -- no matter whether they're fired from the ship while the ship is travelling at warp speed or not -- that they could hit warp-speed or sublight targets regardless of how fast the Enterprise happened to be travelling when it fired them. It is not reasonable to assume otherwise without a shred of evidence to support your position. Saying "I've never seen this particular permutation, therefore the Enterprise CAN'T do it" is nothing more than a cop-out.

Monster104

04-21-2000, 10:08 PM

What about phasers? Do phasers travel faster than light? Can they be fired while in warp, or can just photon torpedoes be fired while in warp?

tracer

04-22-2000, 12:44 AM

SPOOFE Bo Diddly wrote:

Tracer, have you even read the rest of this thread? I already said that, yes, the Enterprise sure can fire weapons while in warp... AT OTHER TARGETS THAT ARE ALSO IN WARP. A Star Destroyer can't go to "warp". So give it a rest.

For one, that was NOT what you said in the post I was responding to. You said, and I quote:

I have NEVER EVER EVER EVER seen the Enterprise go to warp to take out a Romulan Warbird or a Borg Cube or whatever.

Note that you did not say "a warbird or a Borg cube that wasn't at warp", you merely said a warbird or Borg cube, period. I pointed out that, in the first episode with the Borg in them, the Enterprise most definitely did fight a Borg cube at warp speed. (The Borg cube repaired itself immediately, but it was slightly damaged.)

For another, claiming that the Enterprise can't engage sublight targets while travelling at warp speed is really grasping at straws. "Warp" is not some alternate universe like Hyperspace is -- objects travelling at warp speed are just as much a part of our Einsteinian universe as sublight objects are.

Since it has been firmly established that (A) the Enterprise can fight at warp speed, and (B) the Enterprise's weapons travel faster-than-light (or at least their photon torpedoes do -- see ST:TNG Tech Manual), there is no (I repeat, NO) reason to suppose a warp-speed Enterprise couldn't shoot a sublight target.

So it's up to you to provide evidence to the contrary. (A line like "They've dropped out of warp, we've lost weapons lock" would be sufficient.) I'm waiting....

tracer

04-22-2000, 02:02 AM

When it comes to phasers, unfortunately, the available information regarding the speed of the beams is contradictory.

Page 125 of the ST:TNG Tech Manual, which is in the section labelled "11.1: Phasers", says the following:

Energy from all discharged segments passes directionally over neighboring segments due to force coupling, converging on the release point, where the beam will emerge and travel at c to the target.

However, the original-series episode "The Ultimate Computer" shows the Enterprise firing its phasers at other Constitution-class starships in a wargame, while both the Enterprise and the other ships are travelling at warp speeds. (I believe the Enterprise had accelerated to Warp 5 by this point). Furthermore, the ST:TNG episode where Q first shows us the Borg (I forget the title) has the Enterprise fleeing from a Borg cube at warp speed and firing phasers at it.

While the Borg phaser incident may be explained by saying that the Borg cube was headed directly for the Enterprise and that firing a light-speed phaser at it was equivalent to dropping a caltrop on the road in front of a car chasing you, the Ultimate Computer battle cannot be explained away in this manner. The only possible retcon I can come up with is that phaser beams USED TO travel faster-than-light in the days of Kirk and Spock, but slowed down to light speed (c) by the time of Captain Picard. Maybe warp-speed phasers were more dangerous to the ships mounting them, or something.

tracer

04-22-2000, 02:17 AM

Incidentally, the newsgroup rec.arts.startrek.tech is devoted to discussing "Treknology". The five FAQs for that newsgroup contain information and analysis that can't be found in the ST:TNG Tech Manual or the ST Encyclopedia.

The rec.arts.startrek.tech FAQs can be found here, about half way down the page: http://members.aa.net/~skeksis/Star_Trek/

Danielinthewolvesden

04-22-2000, 04:41 AM

Look guys, I'm going to make a few assumptions here. 1. It is the Enterprise, not some random starship. I am assuming Captain Kirk 2. Is is "a Star Destroyer+, ie it IS some random Imperial SD, NOT the 'flagship" type Vader is on.

Then it is no contest. Kirk may be a Blowhard & the most dangerous dick in the Galaxy, but he has the tactical skills & inititive of Horatio Hornblower. The ISD is commanded by some nazi-like dickweed, with all the tactical skill of a duck, and if he ever even thought of having any inititive, Vader strangled it out of him. Who cares which is the better ship? Hornblower in a Frigate could take out a Spanish SOL. Kirk in the Old Enterprise, with Spock, Scotty, etc, would outsmart the ISD so many ways they wouldn't know what day it was. :D

It is to laff.

Now, Kirk vs Vader, hmmm.....

SPOOFE

04-22-2000, 05:26 AM

::sigh::

"...that the Enterprise D CAN'T shoot at sublight targets while at warp speed is an UNREASONABLE ASSUMPTION."

Why is that unreasonable? There have been several hundred Star Trek episodes. They've encountered dozens upon dozens of unknown enemy ships. You're making this "go to warp and fire torpedoes" thing out to be the greatest maneuver this side of Crossing the T. If it was such a great stinkin' maneuever, I'd think it'd be used a bit more often than "zero". And don't give me any bull about "well, they've never encountered a Star Destroyer before", since A: that's painfully obvious and B: it doesn't matter, an unknown ship is an unknown ship.

A more likely excercise would be the "warp, exit warp, fire, re-enter warp" strategy, but that would only be really effective with several ships, since it'd take too long to go through all that to have much effect with a single vessel.

Probably the easiest and most likely way for the Enterprise to come out on top would be for the saucer section to detach and send the nacelle section into a collision course with the Star Destroyer. That way, they'd lose half the ship, but the ISD would lose... well... ALL the ship.

------------------
-SPOOFE

tracer

04-22-2000, 10:59 AM

Ah! I see why we're having this disagreement now, SPOOFE. I thought you were saying that a warp-speed Enterprise can't fire at sublight targets. But what you've really been saying is merely that a warp-speed Enterprise won't fire at sublight targets.

In other words, I've been going on the assumption that you meant the Enterprise was physically prevented from making such a maneuver, whereas what you really mean is that the Enterprise is tactically prevented from doing so.

And there you have a point. Thus far, the only ships with sublight weaponry the Enterprise has encountered have been piddling little wimps built by primitive, backward savages who are just barely beginning to explore space. They've never encountered anything with formidable sublight weaponry before. The first volley fired by the Star Destroyer would come as a big shock to the crew of the Enterprise -- if the Star Destroyer could get off its first shots before Worf can say, "Sensors show they are powering weapons! They appear to be sublight plasma-lasers, but with extremely high energy signatures!"

After the first volley, though (assuming the Enterprise survives and its engines still work), ol' Captain Picard is certainly shrewd enough to engage the Warp Drive in order to evade the Star Destroyer's barrage. In fact, given the way the Trek writers like to turn starship captains into living legends, I wouldn't be surprised if Picard could subsequently figure out the previously-never-used tactic of backing up at Warp 1.1 while firing photon torpedoes. He is Captain Picard, after all.

I'm actually more interested in a scenario where the Enterprise and the Star Destroyer both know what each others' capabilities are before they meet. (Chess games are, after all, more interesting when both sides know ahead of time how the Knight and the Rook are allowed to move.) In that case, the Enterprise crew will have already hammered out the details of flying around at warp speed while lobbing photon torpedoes at the sublight Star Destroyer, and the Star Destroyer crew will have already hammered out the details of when and where to make the most effective microjumps.

tracer

04-23-2000, 11:04 AM

Having never been a fan of the Star Wars universe outside of the movies, I have just picked up a copy of each of Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, A Guide to the Star Wars Universe, and books-on-tape versions of both the Timothy Zahn Heir to the Empire trilogy and that Jedi Academy trilogy.

And I just wanted you to know, it's all your fault.

tracer

04-23-2000, 11:54 AM

Ooh! And it looks like The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology just came in handy!

Page 82 describes the "Deflector shield generators" used in the Star Wars universe. I've been able to glean the following facts from page 82, some of which even contradict a few of the assertions made in this thread:

"Deflectors" and "Shields" mean the same thing.
The two shield types are Particle Shields and Ray Shields. Ray Shields are sometimes called "Energy Shields".
Particle shields are standard equipment on all starships (although TIE fighters probably don't qualify as starships because they don't have a hyperdrive).
Particle shields reinforce the structural integrity of their vessel. They do not project any kind of invisible barrier away from their vessel's surface.
Particle shields can be run continuously, but ray shields use a lot of energy and can only afford to be switched on when battle is imminent.
Ray shields surround their ship with layers of energy that may extend as much as several centimeters away from the hull.
The energy layers of a ray shield are harmful or fatal to touch.
Most starfighters (e.g. Y-wings) carry ray shield generators.
The two Epcot-center-looking geodesic spheres atop a Star Destroyer's bridge are the ship's only shield generators. They funnel their energy through shield relays to projectors located in various places on the hull. (The picture shows a shield generator tower bristling with shield projector relays, and one of the shield relay bumps on the hull.) While shield energy is usually allocated such that the bridge is more heavily protected than other parts of the ship, the placement of the shield generators next to the bridge appears to be coincidental.

This last point would, at first glance, appear to contradict the line in Return of the Jedi where the fighters blew up one of the Super Star Destroyer's shield generators and the SSD's crewman said, "They've taken out the shield generators for the bridge". Perhaps the shield generator towers are also lined with projectors for the bridge area.

tracer

04-23-2000, 02:26 PM

Um ... is "Crossing the T" from somewhere special? (Seriously, I'd never heard the expression before, other than in my primary school penmanship class.)

SPOOFE

04-23-2000, 04:37 PM

"Crossing the T" is jargon from old naval battles between sail-drawn boats (like in the 1600s, 1700s, etc.). It was a highly desired maneuver since it allows one ship to bring half of its' cannons to bear on another ship while facing minimal return fire (all the cannon were along the sides of the boat).

Anyway, Tracer, I agree that it'd be a much more interesting battle if both ships' knew the others' capabilities before hand. In that case, the Enterprise would probably come up with some unorthodox method of winning. And thanks for the info about Ray and Particle shields... I think it's safe to assume that Ray shields could stop a transporter beam from getting through, but a Particle shield wouldn't.

In terms of unorthodox fighting styles, the Enterprise surely gets the upper hand. My original posts held that the Enterprise wouldn't have a chance to implement anything like manipulation via warp drive. You see, a Star Destroyer has so many damn weapons that once it starts firing, it doesn't stop 'til the target is destroyed (kind of like a mini-gun). The sheer volume of firepower aimed at the Enterprise would be too overwhelming.

HOWEVER, if the Enterprise was able to anticipate this massive volume of destruction coming their way, they'd find some way to avoid it, in which case the only way a Star Destroyer would possibly manage to win would be to snag the Enterprise with a tractor beam... which would be tough if the Enterprise was anticipating that maneuver, as well (for a ship of its' size, the 'Prise is surprisingly spry).

BUT... (and you know there's always a "but")... if the crew of the Star Destroyer (or the Empire as a whole) knew of the 'Prise (or the Federation as a whole), they'd probably manage to get their hands on some good ol' transporter technology or a functioning warp drive (and that goes the other way, too). Man, that's scary... a Star Destroyer with several dozen phasers lining the hull? The Enterprise going to hyperspace? The implications are too frightening... we're playing God here, people!!! Run!!!

------------------
-SPOOFE

The Ryan

04-23-2000, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by Monster104:
First of all, a shuttle can't just fire into the main hangar bay...
I guess that went right over your head...

What is the SOP for First Contact in the Federation? If the ISD's range is only about 10Mm (10k km), then I really don't think that the Enterprise would ever come within range. My impression is that in the ST universe, ships try to keep several thousand kilometers between them.

ThisNameForRent

04-24-2000, 12:19 AM

Crossing the T...
Good to see Spoof reads good literature :)

If you're wondering about the banana in my ear, it's tto lure out the monkey inside my head....

tracer

04-24-2000, 02:59 PM

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, Monster104 wrote:

the Star Wars encyclopedia describes a proton torpedo as a "proton scattering energy warhead". I'm no nuclear genius, but I know that if protons are scattered, doesn't that mean stuff blown up by a proton torpedo turn into hydrogen gas?

Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, page 76, also describes proton torpedoes as carrying "high-yield proton-scattering warheads."

However, I interpreted the phrase "proton-scattering warhead" to mean that, when the warhead detonates, it scatters a blast of protons at its target. I did not interpret it to mean that the protons belonging to the target material would get scattered.

Still, a blast of high-energy charged particles is nothing to sneeze at.

tracer

04-24-2000, 03:06 PM

tracer

04-24-2000, 05:38 PM

tracer

04-24-2000, 05:39 PM

Grumble grumble CGI grumble.

Monster104

04-25-2000, 12:03 AM

Well, particle shielding "repels matter of any form" (A Guide to the Star Wars Universe, pg. 341), but I guess that could count as reinforcing the hull.

You're right about the shield generator's on the ISD. I never really looked it up, and assumed they were just the bridge deflector shields (From the quote you mentioned and one about taking out the bridge deflector shields).

However, the idea that since ray shields take up so much energy that they can't afford to be on all the time would only apply to something like an X-wing or Y-wing, since they have very small power generators. An ISD, on the other hand, has such a large power generator it can run its shields continuously.

tracer

04-25-2000, 12:30 AM

Ah, but an ISD also has a much greater surface area to shield!

Jai Pey

04-25-2000, 06:56 AM

Wow wow wow... soo much to add, so little time:

Finally... I think there's a significant difference between an X-wing and a Star Destroyer. If you notice, in "A New Hope", there're several laser blasts fired at an X-wing before it finally goes boom. So that's another line of reasoning that's dead.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Porkins (Red Six) had his X-wing go down quite nicely as the result of a single hit. Red Leader fared likewise.

Porkins and Red leader also both set their shields to double front (to avoid being killed by lucky blasts from the DS defenses)and shunted some power to their engines to make that trench run faster. When they got blasted by those single shot TIE wonders, it was because they weren't shielded in the back. Xwing shields are accepted (in gaming circles) to take 3-4 direct blasts of a TIE Interceptors lasers linked before failing. Then you're in trouble.

And I hate to have to do this, but Monster suggested:

in Star Wars, ships do not get damaged until their shields are at 0%, unlike Star Trek where ships will get serious damage to engines, reactors, replicators, tractor beams, etc., even when the shields are "holding" at 60%
Hate to tell you, the fiction disagrees with you. In most every Xwing: Rogue Squadron book in the series, they link and co-ordinate proton torpedo attacks because simultaneous blasts of a "relatively" weak torpedo would leave an area in the shields that was open. The first volley dropped that small local area, the second hot on its heels slammed into the Destroyer's hull. What that means is there is an amazingly big difference in shield technology in both universes... Whereas the Enterprise-D's is a single unified field (no justice in that is there?), it can be disrupted enough to feedback into the ship's systems thereby causing damage like power outages and sometimes explosions. I think. In SW, the shield seems to be generated by local areas, like left aide shields, right side shields, dorsal and ventral shields... and smaller holes can be punched through, provided enough assault is launched in the first place.

Tracer asked a while back:

In fact, come to think of it, maybe the Enterprise doesn't have to fly away at FTL speeds to avoid getting hit. What's the maximum range of a Star Destroyer's weapons? A few thousand kilometers? Ten or twenty thousand kilometers, perhaps? The Enterprise could stand off at 100,000 or 1,000,000 kilometers and shoot at the Star Destroyer from there. With its warp drive, or even its impulse engines, Enterprise would have no problem keeping that range constant, unless the Star Destroyer went into hyperspace or did a hyperspace microjump and caught the Enterprise off-guard.

The games Xwing Vs Tie Fighter, Xwing Alliance, the old Xwing game itself, and the followup Tie Fighter, all suggest capital ships have an effective range of about 6 SW kilometers. Outside of that, they'd need to be firing at something bigger than a capital ship. Now, as for the actual range of the weaponry? I can only assume its greater than 6 km's, seeing as they routinely talk of a Impstar as being a platform for planetary bombardment, which means greater than 80 kilometers.

Tracer, the Heir to the Empire is great. I'd suggest you find the Stackpole Xwing series too... all nine books.
And while you have the technical manual, check out Ion cannon.

Having reviewed the posts, and thinking/rethinking the scenario in my head, I fail to see how the Enterprise's warp capability helps much offensively. Lets say they do a Picard maneuver... It was only ever used (to the best of my knowledge) to present the Enterprise's attackers with a decoy, as it were. if they could actually fire between point A and point B, while in warp, why didn't they?

I thik we've all gone a bit crazy in trying to understand warp / hyperspace. And I definitely don't think they're related, as was claimed earlier... If anything, I see hyperspace as being much more similar to subspace in the ST universe, or even a wormhole in a more classical universe. Warp is achieved though a field being generated around the ST ship's hull, a higly localized field... which is why I think this firing from the Ent-D and the Borg cube (so often quoted) is something that was never intended for the ST universe but was added because it allowed cool effects. Once an object leaves that warp field (say a shuttle piggy-backed) it drops immediately out of warp. Why is phaser fire or photon torps any different? They have Warp nacelles too?

hyperspace totally eludes me. All I know is they have some kind of hyperdrive which has a fuel of sorts, and its by far the easiest thing to mess up on the Millenium Falcon.

Regards,

jai Pey

tracer

04-25-2000, 09:23 AM

Jai Pey wrote:

quote
--------------------------------------------
Porkins (Red Six) had his X-wing go down quite nicely as the result of a single hit. Red Leader fared likewise.
--------------------------------------------

Porkins and Red leader also both set their shields to double front (to avoid being killed by lucky blasts from the DS defenses) and shunted some power to their engines to make that trench run faster. When they got blasted by those single shot TIE wonders, it was because they weren't shielded in the back.

Porkins was hit by one of those lucky blasts from the DS defenses; the TIE fighters hadn't even joined the battle yet.

By the time Red Leader got nailed, Gold Leader had already ordered his squadron to "stabilize your rear deflectors"; since Red Squadron also faced the threat of fighter attack, Red Leader's rear shields were probably up by then as well.

tracer

04-25-2000, 09:51 AM

Jai Pey wrote:

I fail to see how the Enterprise's warp capability helps much offensively. Lets say they do a Picard maneuver... It was only ever used (to the best of my knowledge) to present the Enterprise's attackers with a decoy, as it were. if they could actually fire between point A and point B, while in warp, why didn't they?

The Picard Maneuver bugs the hell out of me, too.  According to The Star Trek Encyclopedia, the Picard Maneuver worked because the unnamed enemy ship was using light-speed sensors to lock its weapons onto the Stargazer.  If the enemy ship couldn't detect anything moving faster-than-light, why didn't the Stargazer just fly at warp speed in random circles around it and fire photon torpedoes at it?

Personally, I blame the fact that the episode the Picard Maneuver appeared in ("The Battle") was from ST:TNG's first season.  They didn't yet have a science advisor on their writing staff, and worse, the Season One Writer's Bible made the egregious error of claiming that, since photons travel at the speed of light, photon torpedoes travel at the speed of light too.  (This contradicted everything about photorps that had gone before in ST:TOS and the movies, and has since been swept under the rug by later Writer's Bibles.  Both the ST:TNG Tech Manual and the Star Trek Encyclopedia now claim that photorps are warp speed weapons.)

tracer

04-25-2000, 03:09 PM

And speaking of light-speed sensors, Bored2001 wrote:

The isd would have no way to track you since they don't have any sensors designed to pick up warp signatures.

I looked up "Starship Sensor Array" in Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology.  While some of the types of sensors described were definitely light-speed (e.g. electro-photo receptors), the book is silent on the issue of whether all sensor types in the Star Wars universe are limited to acting at the speed of light or slower.  A Guide to the Star Wars Universe likewise says nothing on the topic.  The short conversation when the Millennium Falcon disappeared off the Star Destroyer's scanners in The Empire Strikes Back also fails to shed any light on the issue (no pun intended).

The technical hyperspace page on theforce.net, at http://www.theforce.net/swtc/hyperspace.html#tracking , implies but does not state that ships cannot be detected while in hyperspace.

However, The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, page 115 et seq., does talk about the existence of subspace communications, which propagate nearly instantaneously across insterstellar distances. (I presume that "subspace" in Star Wars means something totally different from "subspace" in Star Trek.) It is not inconceivable that some kind of active sensor system could be rigged out of subspace communications technology, assuming it was possible to "bounce" a subspace transmission off an object (the way RADAR does with radio waves).

Are there any SW novels or comics that speak of FTL sensor technology, or subspace radar?

SPOOFE

04-25-2000, 03:14 PM

I would agree that both the Star Wars and Star Trek universe is EXTREMELY inconsistent. If one guy created both things and laid out the law of how things were precisely, we'd avoid a lot of problems... of course, that would probably detract from the entertainment value. As it is, both series' are products of many, many writers' imaginations... they didn't think "now what would be likely and work in coordination with the tried-and-true specs of this starship?" They think "now what would be entertaining?"

When I lay out specs for stuff like this, I usually take the average (starting with what is written in "official" books, like the encyclopedia) of what has been described by the plethora of writers out there.

I generally avoid using Star Wars games as a reference... all the specs used in the games are used only FOR the game. For example, in X-Wing, if you judge how fast it takes for an X-wing to fly past an Imperial Star Destroyer, you can estimate that the X-wing's top speed is 70 MPH or so (which is ridiculous). Also, a friend once calculated that if you take the speed of a proton torpedo as it appears to travel in X-wing, it would have taken Luke's torp about half an hour to travel down the exhaust shaft to the Death Star core. So when you're playing one of those games, take the measurements with a grain of salt.

Now, the difference between hyperspace and subspace... Warp requires a constant stream of energy to remain in warp. If the warp drive fails while in warp, you fall out of warp. Hyperspace requires a huge chunk of fuel to get in and out, but while IN hyperspace, only miniscule bits of fuel are needed (there's talk about the "One-Way Jump"... jumping into hyperspace and not being able to get out... this happened to Nil Spaar in The Black Fleet Crisis). Also, there is a supposed speed limit to subspace (unless you cound Warp 10, which is an oddity). In hyperspace, the speed limits are technological rather than theoretical... that is, you can go as fast as you want as long as your engines can push hard enough. However, I think it's pretty clear that both realms violate the laws of physics.

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-SPOOFE

SPOOFE

04-25-2000, 03:15 PM

SPOOFE

04-25-2000, 03:24 PM

Stupid bad Internet connection... ::grumble grumble:: Sorry 'bout that, y'alls.

Anyway, an ISD certainly has access to faster-than-light communication arrays (hypercom and the Holonet, for example), but I'm not certain at all about sensors. It's possible, but I wouldn't bank on it. I know that it's impossible to detect something that's in hyperspace (unless you're also in hyperspace and REALLY close to the target... this also happened in The Black Fleet Crisis). But I doubt the Star Destroyer would be able to track the Enterprise through warp. Even if subspace was used millenia ago in the Star Wars universe (maybe as a "precursor" of sorts before they went even farther in hyperspace????), they wouldn't be expecting it. So I think it's a safe assumption that the Star Destroyer can't track the Enterprise through warp.

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-SPOOFE

tracer

04-25-2000, 03:33 PM

SPOOFE Bo Diddly wrote:

So I think it's a safe assumption that the Star Destroyer can't track the Enterprise through warp.

Well, then! In that case, when the Enterprise backs up at warp 1.1 and lobs photon torpedoes at the Star Destroyer, it can make tiny alterations in its course that would prevent the Star Destroyer from knowing exactly where it is, so that the Star Destroyer couldn't do a microjump into the Enterprise's path and fire at its pre-calculated position.  The only option left to the Star Destroyer would be to hyperjump out of there and lick its (probably light) wounds.

I win. :)

SPOOFE

04-25-2000, 03:39 PM

I'm still pretty sure that the Enterprise crew wouldn't come up with that tactic before it's too late.

Of course, my theory assumes an intelligent captain in the ISD (there WERE quite a few of them in the Empire, amazingly). But if one of the arrogant, "The Empire is all-powerful" officers were in charge, the Enterprise would be able to play the Star Destroyer like a harp from hell.

However, if Thrawn were in the bridge... sorry, Enterprise, you go boom.

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-SPOOFE

tracer

04-25-2000, 03:40 PM

And speaking of light wounds:

We've seen the Enterprise, the Voyager, and the Defiant badly damaged several times. How come you never see a badly damaged Star Destroyer? Star Destroyers are all in either pristine condition, or blowing up in a cataclysmic fireball (e.g. near the end of Return of the Jedi). Is their outer hull lined with dynamite or something?

SPOOFE

04-25-2000, 03:48 PM

Well a Star Destroyer is just so stinkin' big... battle damage is tough to see. Also, there were only three movies, and only one had Star Destroyers gettin' damaged, anyway.

To blow up a Star Destroyer, you've gotta pound through all the hull and hit the main reactor (pick up the "Incredible Cross-sections" book to see just how much ship you have to get through to reach the reactor). A better tactic would be trying to DISABLE the Star Destroyer... that is, blasting away all the guns and damaging the engines... or, if you're lucky, taking out the bridge.

------------------
-SPOOFE

tracer

04-25-2000, 03:57 PM

Apparently, taking out the bridge on a Super Star Destroyer also has the beneficial side-effect of causing the ship to careen downwards and crash nose-first into the Death Star. ;)

SPOOFE

04-25-2000, 07:01 PM

So if a Death Star's not around, the Star Destroyer can't lose, huh?

Makes you think why the Empire built Death Stars in the first place...

------------------
-SPOOFE

tracer

04-25-2000, 07:36 PM

Well, if a Desth Star's not around to crash into, a Super Star Destroyer can't lose merely because its bridge blows up, at least.

tracer

04-26-2000, 02:57 PM

SPOOFE Bo Diddly wrote:

However, if Thrawn were in the bridge... sorry, Enterprise, you go boom.

Oh, pshaw. If Grand Admiral "Sherlock Holmes" Thrawn is such a master tactician, how come he didn't thing of reprogramming 50 stolen mole-miners so that their original owners wouldn't be able to control them? :p

Joe_x

04-26-2000, 03:00 PM

If this has been stated already please forgive me. For as big and bad as the ISD are supposed to be they had a pretty tough time siezing a simple diplomatic ship. Remember Episode IV?

Besides everyone knows that what would happen depends entirely upon who was captaining the Enterprise. If Kirk was Captain he would win. Period, some way some how he would win. If Picard was Captain he would fight with the Empire and then somehow convince them of the evils of their way and leave just as the Star Wars society was undergoing a radical social shift in its outlook.

Esprix

04-26-2000, 03:09 PM

Perhaps that is what this argument comes down to - who is captaining which ship.

I still maintain that the Star Trek universe officers are faster on their feet and more "outside the box" thinkers (notably Kirk) than the purely military-minded Star Wars officers.

Here's a thought - who would the Star Wars characters most resemble in the Star Trek universe, and vice-versa?

I'd say the Empire would be equivalent to the Cardassians, and the Rebels would be equivalent to the Maquis.

On the flip side... hmmmm. I can't think of who the Federation would be equivalent to in the Star Wars universe.

This has always been my tack on the differences between the two universes anyway - Star Wars has always been more simplistic, somewhat "child-oriented" black and white, good and evil, whereas Star Trek has always been more shades of gray, moral dilemma, the ends do not always justify the means. Know what I mean?

Star Wars may be meaner, but Star Trek is smarter.

Esprix

------------------
Evidently, I rock.
Ask the Gay Guy! (http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html)

tracer

04-26-2000, 03:51 PM

Esprix wrote:

I'd say the Empire would be equivalent to the Cardassians, and the Rebels would be equivalent to the Maquis.

On the flip side... hmmmm. I can't think of who the Federation would be equivalent to in the Star Wars universe.

The Old Republic Senate.

tracer

04-26-2000, 04:15 PM

Joe_x

04-26-2000, 04:43 PM

You know these Star Wars fans never cease to amaze me. Now I love Star Wars as much as anyone but come on now!

Vadar couldn't kill some pimply faced kid. Picard would whip him with a quick phaser blast. Kirk, well he would break out the classic Kirk-Fu (tm) and probable eat Vadar alive. I mean Kirk has faced down everything from Klingon to near omnipotent beings claiming to be God. Some guy on a respirator and running around with a cape and lame gaurds dressed in red carrying sticks would be no match for any of them, even Janeway.

Storm Troopers being able to sieze the Enterprise.....Puh-leaze these guys couldn't hit the broadside of the barn. The Iowa School of the Blind's Marksmanship team are more likely to hit a target. Besides even if they did penetrate the ship a simply security forcefield would contain them. Then simply evacuate the air from the force field and the Storm Troopers are going to go bye bye!

What else? Once again the range on most of the Imperial's Weapons are laughable. I honestly believe I can throw a football farther. Look at the games (since that is as close as we are going to get to "real" numbers). In X-Wing Vs. Tie Fighter the Imperials weapons were very under-ranged. In Star Fleet Battles the Enterprise simply can reach out and touch someone.

All this silly talk of Micro Jumps? Bah! I say. The Hyperdrive of the SW universe is about as fragile as most Star Wars Fan's ego (i.e. very fragile). Look at the Millineum Falcon, if you even look at it funny the Hyper Drive breaks down, and it is supposed to be the fastest ship around. In addition it takes a while to plot these micro jumps, The Enterprise can go to warp on the fly and simply out manuever and bleed the ISD to death with 1,000 needle pricks.

And another thing thats makes the Imperial Forces look so pitifull is the pure size differance. The ISD is close to 1 mile long, while the Enterprise is 600 Meters long (with a good portion of that being taken up by warp naucelles (sp?)). This fight would be the equivalent of a 120 lbs. boxer (Enterprise) beating a 180 lbs. boxer (Star Destroyer). The ISD should simply pack up its toys and go home before it is made into the Enterprise's bitch.

Hell after facing down the Borg the Picard could probably make Wesly Crusher Captain and the Enterprise would still when.

Joe_x

04-26-2000, 04:49 PM

sixseatport

04-26-2000, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by tracer:

Esprix wrote:
I'd say the Empire would be equivalent to the Cardassians, and the Rebels would be equivalent to the Maquis.
On the flip side... hmmmm. I can't think of who the Federation would be equivalent to in the Star Wars universe.

The Old Republic Senate.

Who were (will be?) overthrown by the Empire.

sixseatport

04-26-2000, 05:10 PM

SPOOFE

04-26-2000, 06:45 PM

Joe X, you don't know what you're talking about. Vader didn't WANT to kill "some pimply faced kid", he wanted to turn him over to the dark side. The Star Destroyer in Episode IV didn't WANT to destroy the Tantive IV, it wanted to CAPTURE it. THe Millenium Falcon is a horrible example of Star Wars hyperdrive technology, mostly because it was given hundreds of modifications that made the ship into a huge, unstable mess.

In short, your examples aren't very good examples at all.

------------------
-SPOOFE

SPOOFE

04-26-2000, 06:48 PM

And, Joe, as I've already said, take the measurements in the game with a grain of salt, please... if you'd read the rest of the thread, you'd know that those measurements contradict each other.

And with regards to stormtrooper fighting ability... it's not like the Federation is any better of marksmen. So, can the colored commentary... that's MY job, sir!

------------------
-SPOOFE

Joe_x

04-26-2000, 07:08 PM

You know you love my color commentary Spoofe :)

I also know that I misspelled win with "when" at the end of my little tirade. Flame away on my spelling abilities also :)

I'm sure there is some fan fiction out there covering a crossover from Star Wars and Star Trek.

Joe_x

04-26-2000, 09:08 PM

The fact that they were attempting to capture Leia's ship merely reinforces the arguement for the impotance of an ISD. Their Ion Cannons which supposedly could penetrate any shield had trouble stopping a meek diplomatic ship. Picard would simply laugh at the ISD.

Also for merely having 400 years of development time the Federation is doing quite well. The Old Republic has been around for 25,000 years. Everyone in the Star Wars universe should be a being of pure thought by now. But are they? No its still a big deal for the Empire to be able to destroy a planet. Hell us modern humans already have the ability to render a planet toxic to everything but bacteria and a cockroach.

As far as my not reading all of your post you can't hold that against me. Since when does anyone here listen to the other side's arguments?

Chronos

04-26-2000, 10:11 PM

Ok, I've lurked on this one so far, and I do think that the Federation is smarter (forget Kirk, I want Scotty on board), but a thought just occured to me: How many photon torpedoes does the Enterprise carry? Voyager, if I recall, only had about thirty when they were snatched... Were they short-stocked? Because even if the Enterprise were able to fire torpedoes with impunity, via microwarps or whatever you want to call them, it seems to me that they just wouldn't have enough to kill an ISD.

By the way, a warp bubble is created by the ship in question, and remains connected to the rest of space, while hyperspace is presumably considered a natural phenomenon extending indefinitely, and is also presumably separated from normal space. I haven't yet seen a GR model for hyperspace, so can't say for certain.

------------------
"There are only two things that are infinite: The Universe, and human stupidity-- and I'm not sure about the Universe"
--A. Einstein

tracer

04-27-2000, 12:31 AM

Joe_x wrote:

I also know that I misspelled win with "when" at the end of my little tirade. Flame away on my spelling abilities also :)

Actually, I was going to flame you for misspelling Vader as "Vadar". What in heck is "Vadar"? Is that anything like Radar, or Gaydar?

I'm sure there is some fan fiction out there covering a crossover from Star Wars and Star Trek.

Whadaya mean "a" crossover? There've been more SW/ST crossovers posted to alt.startrek.creative and, um, whatever the Star Wars fanfiction newsgroups are called, over the years than would fit in the Libraries of Coruscant AND Federation Headquarters combined.

tracer

04-27-2000, 12:40 AM

Chronos wrote:

How many photon torpedoes does the Enterprise carry? Voyager, if I recall, only had about thirty when they were snatched...

And they've fired at least twice that many since they've been in the Delta Quadrant.

I swear, the only thing more inexhaustible than Voyager's photon torpedo supply is its supply of shuttlecraft. They must have lost, what, at least 90 by now?

SPOOFE

04-27-2000, 01:15 AM

Things like torpedoes can be replicated as long as there's enough energy. Basically, a starship can be self-sufficient as long as there's enough dilithium (I think that's how it's spelled). BUT (and you know there's always a but) don't go thinking that this means the Enterprise would have an unlimited supply of torps... it takes a while to replicate a torpedo (they are a little bit more complicated than, say, a cup of tea).

Joe, I apologize for snapping at you... I was stressed at the time. But what I say stands... no offense, but you didn't bring up very good examples. Why? Because those were specialized cases, where faulty hardware was a means to further the plot. The same goes for stormtroopers... they were made out to be inept just to make the good guys seem so much cooler. If you want, we can assume that this Imperial-class Star Destroyer is one of those that the New Republic (the government that was formed from the Rebellion) had in their possession. But then that pits the Enterprise against a whole new set of foes, which probably wouldn't be fair.

Anyway, didn't mean to flame.

Anyway, with regards to the 25,000 years of the Old Republic... I think history has proven that levels of advancement can fluctuate wildly over the course of a thousand years or so... look at ancient Rome. After Rome fell, Europe entered the dark age... things like that could have happened dozens of times over the course of 25,000 years. Who knows? Maybe a century before the Galactic Civil War, teleporters and replicators were everywhere.

If you want an example of Star Wars advancement over Star Trek's... look at the artificial intelligence. Sure, C-3PO is a whiny prick, but Data's kinda stupid himself. And IG-88... he almost conquered the whole galaxy, and he was a mere assassin droid. So while Star Trek may appear to excel in some areas, Star Wars excels in others.

And besides... it's really funny when the hydrospanners fall on Han and he screams "OW! CHEWIE!" If it was a tricorder, it would've been boring.

------------------
-SPOOFE

Joe_x

04-27-2000, 08:39 AM

Don't worry snap all you want, I'm thick skinned. This thread is about as serious as Ross Perot's presidential run :)

soulsling

04-27-2000, 10:12 AM

ok, geekdom at its highest level aside...
i believe the star trek universes "Federation" would send someone like Picard to negotiate with the Star Wars "Federation", having data, worf and troy along for protection and to sense any sith activity from good old Darth, of course if Guinan were around, The star wars "Federation/Empire" wouldn't stand a chance, but the Destroyer can't really outmaneuver the Enterprise because the Enterprise always finds a way to re-align the deflector array/dish what have you... and track some type of ion flux/anomaly shift in the pattern of some subspace hoolaboo that the destroyer would of course leave a trail of becuase Darth is too involved in his wardrobe and dealing with too many childhood issues troy would be trying to help him with....
-have i made clear what an interesting episode of SpaceBalls revisited this might make if it were done on the Monty Python scale of themes?

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-i'm just this regular guy, ya' know? ~Zaphod Beeblebrox

Joe_x

04-27-2000, 01:28 PM

Hehe thanks to Soulsling I just realized 2 things:

1. Conselor Troy could hopefully do wonders to Darth Vader. In episode 1 we never heard of who Vader's father was. I personally believe this lack of a father figure is what Vader sought in the Senator Palpatine. Another example of the ill-effects of single motherhood.

2. The Federation may not do so well against Stormtroopers as I previously believed. Marksmanship ability asides, the Federation might not be able to tackle a bunch of bad-guys who don't lumber along (The Borg) or stupidly engage in hand to hand combat when a Phasor would work just as well (The Klingons).

All in all I still believe the Conselor Troy would be able to bring Luke and Darth back together. Then Darth, Luke and the Enterprise would find the secret weakpoint in the Death Star (probably without having to steal plans either), and the jiggle the reflector array and remodulate the doo-dad and save the day.

Jai Pey

04-27-2000, 01:51 PM

Luke and Darth did just fine on their own, thank you very much.

Two words, folks: Size matters. That bloody great ISD bearning down on the Enterprise, after they'd finished changing pantaloons and cleaning themselves they'd already be floating helpless in space.

Re: The ISD's troubles taking a Corellian Corvette, brought up by the Illustrious Joe X... They were trying to capture the blockade runner. Being so close to the planets surface, I guess, made them decide to capture it in a running turbolaser exchange versus disabling it and chancing having it crash into the planet. See the beginning of TESB? Doesn't a bloody great ISD get disabled in that?? Takes a big nose-dive towards Hoth??

Anyhow, after snagging it in the tractor beam and taking it into the belly hold, they proceed to board the corvette... notice how well the stormtroopers blast their way in? Exactly how many rebels survive the lasers? Count em as they march em out... How many reb's die in the fracas? How many troopers die?

They're better than they look, methinks.

Just forget about that Endor incident.. that was the Emperor's doing...

"Patience, my followers... Go easy on them, or else you'll get bolts of blue lightning up the butt".

Suffice it to say, if the Enterprise was boarded, I think they'd lose the fight.

Yub yub,

Jai Pey

tracer

04-27-2000, 03:28 PM

Chronos wrote:

How many photon torpedoes does the Enterprise carry?

Ah, here we go:

According to the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual, section 11.3, page 130, a Galaxy-class starship generally carries 275 basic photon torpedo casings. All 275 may be used as photon torpedoes, or up to 1/4 of them may be used sensor probes.

Incidentally, page 129 says that up to 1.5 kilograms of antimatter may be loaded into the casing for use as a warhead. That's quite a lot of antimatter. One ounce of antimatter colliding with one ounce of matter will produce an approximately one-megaton explosion (i.e. an explosion with the same destructive force as one million tons of TNT). 1.5 kilograms is a little over three pounds -- that much antimatter, colliding with an equal amount of matter, will produce an explosion equal to 40-50 megatons of TNT.

A 40 megaton detonation hardly qualifies as a "pin prick", even if the Star Destroyer has ray shields.

Joe_x

04-27-2000, 05:56 PM

Did fine on their own? Oh ok being the most dysfunctional relationship in Science Fiction (or space opera) is not doing fine :)

It took them 3 movies to do what Troy could have done as a sub-plot in a regular episode.

You know after watching the film "Troops" I am surprised no one has done a Springer episode with Darth and Luke.

tracer

04-27-2000, 06:57 PM

"My father is a sith!" -- on the next Springer.

tracer

04-27-2000, 09:26 PM

And a little warhead-strength comparison exercise:

A photon torpedo has a warhead strength of 40-50 megatons.
The first hydrogen bomb, detonated on Eniwetok Atoll in 1952, had an estimated warhead strength of 12 megatons.
The crater created by said 1952 hydrogen bomb was 6000 feet across.
A Star Destroyer is about 6000 feet long.

Now, while a Star Destroyer IS made of super-tough metal alloys, an atoll is made of rock, which isn't exactly a pooftah material. Without particle and ray shields protecting it, one photon torpedo will pretty much turn a Star-Destroyer-sized object inside-out.

Or at least, it should. The photon torpedo blasts seen on the show tend to be a lot wimpier, for some reason.

carnivorousplant

04-27-2000, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by Screeme:
OK... did you see the Millenium Falcon go up against one of those Star Destroyers.. even Han Solo didn't actually intend to fight the thing. As c3po mentioned, the odds are practically impossible. I bring this up, because I imagine the Falcon and the Enterprise are probably fairly similar in size. (Just remember.. the Falcon compared to the thing was able to drift away with the star destroyers huge garbage-- and its lazers didn't even harm the thing.) End result-- Vader uses the force to squash poor ol' Kirk to oblivian. Absolutely no doubts

Screeme

Enterprise D is Picard, who would talk Dath Vader to death. Kirk is another matter. While Darth Vader was saying "Evil will win because Good is Dumb", etc., etc., Kirk would kill him.

SPOOFE

04-27-2000, 10:03 PM

Well, photon torpedoes can have a warhead of UP TO 40-50 megatons. They probably don't launch fully loaded torps very often, since that'd be seen as overkill and, from most points of view "barbaric".

Most photon torps you see flying would probably be a couple of megatons... maybe ten, maximum, for Romulan Warbirds. The 40-50 meg torps would be specially reserved for Borg. But that's from a logistical standpoint, not an "Enlightened", Federation standpoint. Who knows? Maybe the Enterprise always fires dud torps as "warning shots" all the time, and that's why they never seem to do anything (except in "Generations"... man, that was cool).

It is nice having a strength gauge, though, for a photon torpedoes (kudos to Tracer!). Anybody have anything about proton torpedoes. I'm pretty sure they're akin to hydrogen bombs, but I've got nil as far as the warhead-strength goes.

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-SPOOFE

carnivorousplant

04-27-2000, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by SPOOFE Bo Diddly:
Well, I started this, so I think it's about time I offered up my take for analysis.

ISD micro-jumps (it's been done many times) right up next to the Enterprise. The Enterprise is confused by this action and isn't able to get its' shields up in time. The initial volley of the ISD wounds the Enterprise critically. The following salvo from the 72 fighters continue to wound it. Repeat until destruction is complete.

You are describing the "Picard Manuver"
(sp) Won't work.

carnivorousplant

04-27-2000, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by tracer:
Chronos wrote:

And they've fired at least twice that many since they've been in the Delta Quadrant.

I swear, the only thing more inexhaustible than Voyager's photon torpedo supply is its supply of shuttlecraft. They must have lost, what, at least 90 by now?

It has become canon that Voyager manufactures shuttle craft. I presume the same goes for photon torpedoes.

carnivorousplant

04-27-2000, 11:11 PM

Borg: "WE ARE THE BORG. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED."
Picard: "Be that as it may, I felt I should inform you that one Darth Vader has insinuated on numerous occasions that your maternal parent's feet are encased in military foot wear."
Borg: "YOUR SOCIETY WILL SERVICE...WHERE WILL WE FIND THIS DARTH VADER?"
Picard: "It is fortunate that I have spacial co ordinates for his location. Set your scanners to 'Double Ugly'.

Spock: "Captain, these vessels are manuvering with aerodynamic control surfaces in the vacumn of space! Fascinating!"
Kirk: "Uhura, call Star Fleet Command. Tell them these people violate the laws of physics worse than we do. Mr. Chekov, screw the Prime Directive. Blow their ass off."

Janeway: "Tuvok, who ARE these people?"
Chakotay: "My people can be evil too, but better."

Dr. Bashir: "What an intersting skin condition, Mr. Vader. May I prescribe a lotion?"

SPOOFE

04-27-2000, 11:47 PM

Umm... Mr. Plant, sir, no disrespect, but... uh... what?

------------------
-SPOOFE

Joe_x

04-27-2000, 11:52 PM

Allrighty now that was funny. I understood your humor even if Spoofe didn't

:)

sixseatport

04-28-2000, 09:24 AM

Yeah, carnivorousplant, that was pretty funny, but I'm gonna take issue with one thing:

Spock: "Captain, these vessels are manuvering with aerodynamic control surfaces in the vacumn of space! Fascinating!"
Kirk: "Uhura, call Star Fleet Command. Tell them these people violate the laws of physics worse than we do. Mr. Chekov, screw the Prime Directive. Blow their ass off."

With the exception of the Force, ST violates physical laws a LOT more often than SW. Every time I heard La Forge toss out something about "tachyons" or "phase converters" or some other such nonsense I just have to cringe.

soulsling

04-28-2000, 10:10 AM

thank you Carnivorous!
yes, exactly!
Fellas and Broads, listen here, we see The Enterprise can fire a couple of torpedoes at the ISD and blow it to Kingdom come, There's always some damned Vulcan, Android, Scottsman, or Blind Computer Technician capable of rearranging that damned deflector dish (...wonder what channels they get on that thing?...) to configure for the shields on the ISD to avoid having their torpedos miss like in ID4, and the ISD didn't have transporter technology, so they couldn't board the Enterprise, and transporting a torpedo in the ISD would work too, so the ISD is fucked, and Darth can take his little conehead self into his damned escape tie-fighter-pod which is nowhere near the size of a shuttle craft and crash land himself on some moon where Klingon children can have thier field day with him.
Thats if it ever came to blows, Kirk wouldn't do it because he would go for The Princess knowing full well it was her father that he was up against, and he would settle for threatening to destroy the ISD if big o'l hard hat himself didn't back off, Picard would definitely send Troy out to massage those childhood worries away, and bring peace to the galaxy so far far away, and if it was Voyager, well, it just might end up being a clone ship or something, so it doesn't matter does it?
Thats settled it i think. The Enterprise would win. I suggest perhaps Battlestar Galactica's ship though versus the ISD? much fairer. How about Sandmen from Logans Run vs. Starfleet Officers?

sixseatport

04-28-2000, 10:11 AM

Oh, an NO vessel in SW ever manuvered (sp?) by using control surfaces....

(with the exception of the snow speeders, but they WERE operating in an atmosphere.)

tracer

04-28-2000, 01:00 PM

Although TIE fighters, Y-wings, and X-wings don't actually use "control surfaces" in space, they sure as heck fly a lot like airplanes.

And what's with those "intakes" on the front of the X-wing's engines, huh?!

tracer

04-28-2000, 01:06 PM

soulsling wrote:

transporting a torpedo in the ISD would work too,

Not if the ISD's shields were up. :p

Jai Pey

04-28-2000, 01:06 PM

Tracer, Xwing's are atmosphere ready, too. See the Xwing series of books. Thus the need for intakes I guess, they're supposed to be a space/atmosphere superiority fighter. Though I can't remember if they need the S-foils closed in order to fly thru atmosphere.

Regards,

Jai Pey

soulsling

04-28-2000, 02:49 PM

tracer:

of course it would work, someone on that ship would figure a way to beam through the shields. C'mon, one episode where they couldn't figure a way to beam through some shield or atmosphere before the last quarter hour of the show.... i didn't think so.
So yeah, it would work. Like i said, The Enterprise won. Darth is a Klingon kid's rattle, and the ISD is a new coral reef for some yet to evolve species on some vague moon.

------------------
-i'm just this regular guy, ya' know? ~Zaphod Beeblebrox

soulsling

04-28-2000, 02:51 PM

SPOOFE

04-28-2000, 04:01 PM

Soulsling, as much as I appreciate ranting, I should let you know what your little spiel sounded like...

"The Enterprise is great and amazing and wonderful and joyous and the Star Destroyer sucks!! The Enterprise would win!!"

C'mon... try to give some REAL reason why you think the Enterprise would win. All of your suggestions (while sound) would probably take the starfleet crew several minutes to think about. And I don't care what anyone says about the Enterprise... several minutes of delay, with the vast amount of firepower that can be brought to bear on them, would spell certain doom for our dear Federation friends.

I realize that the crew of the Enterprise is great at thinking on their feet... but standard procedure (they DO follow it, even if they often use unorthodox ideas) is for the captain to ask his bridge crew for suggestions (this happened dozens of times). He gets a few suggestions from random crew members, picks one, and implements it. And the suggestion he picks doesn't always work (one Star Trek episode had the Enterprise in a temporal loop... and they kept blowing up. Another ship was on a collision course, their maneuvering wasn't working... they kept trying to use the tractor beam to push the other ship of course). The point is, that's a long process (from a battlefield standpoint, where a single second can mean life or death). The most likely tactic the Enterprise would use would be run away and analyze battle data... and THEN come back and implement something nifty.

However, if the Enterprise sticks around too long and tries to fight a conventional fight... it has no chance.

------------------
-SPOOFE

Weirddave

04-28-2000, 04:42 PM

And I don't care what anyone says about the Enterprise... several minutes of delay, with the vast amount of firepower that can be brought to bear on them, would spell certain doom for our dear Federation friends. Oh, you must be SPOOFEing us! hehe. I think this thread had demonstrated several times that a SD dosen't fight with nearly the range or power of the Enterprise. The only way the SD wins is to somehow get very close to Enterprise and hold that position. I don't believe they have the technology to do so, and nothing posted here (yet) has changed my mind.

------------------
Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.
_____________________________________________
Relax, I'm not as Dave as I look!- A Wallified sig!

soulsling

04-30-2000, 01:18 PM

yeah yeah, i'm not trying to stick my tounge out and say the Enterprise rocks and the ISD sucks, i think the ISD is much more fashionably correct, but were talking about the logistics of the actual crews/ships vs. one another aren't we? if we go by what we've seen on both movies/show, and even including all the technical manuals i so proudly don't own, the Enterprise just keeps showing up the ISD. Yes, if the ISD just decided to come up and unleash its firepower on the Enterprise the benevolent crew and their ship would be toast. Give them both a half hour episode together, or even a full hour, and the ISD becomes a museum artifact in some starfleet academy. The posts previous to mine all mention the firepower, technology, and crew reactions to situations. In a debate, one takes a side. I took the side of the Enterprise, because it seems (Spoof) took the side of the ISD. I could just as easily argue the other way round. But i'm on the Enterprise team 'till suggested otherwise or someone really decides to close the topic. Then i would just bring it back up arguing the other side most likely. So, any rebuttals?? :cool:

tracer

04-30-2000, 03:17 PM

Oh, thank godlessness the Great Debates forum is back up! I missed you guys! *sob!*

Anyhow, SPOOFE Bo Diddly wrote:

one Star Trek episode had the Enterprise in a temporal loop... and they kept blowing up. Another ship was on a collision course, their maneuvering wasn't working... they kept trying to use the tractor beam to push the other ship of course.

And I'll bet you cheered your head off every single time the Enterprise blew up :p

SPOOFE

04-30-2000, 05:25 PM

Hey, hey, hey, now, Tracer... I love the Enterprise. I was upset when they blew it up for good in Generations. But you gotta admit, that temporal loop episode was cool.

Anyway, to re-iterate the two different outcomes that have been set up in this thread...

A: The two ships meet. The Star Destroyer opens fire first, completely surprising the Enterprise. Enterprise isn't able to to get away in time. Enterprise loses.

B: The two ships meet. The Star Destroyer opens fire first, but the Enterprise sees it coming a mile away. After a few seconds of battle, they realize that they can't win here and now... so they run, repair, and plan. They return, fly circles around the Star Destroyer, and chalk up another battle (though I don't think that the Star Destroyer would be blown up... if it has a smart captain, it'd run-- it can go faster in its' FTL mode than the Enterprise-- or it'd be disabled and the benevolent Enterprise would ask for their surrender).

Any other ideas from y'all?

soulsling

04-30-2000, 06:39 PM

don't know why i'm so involved in this thread...

ok, situation (A), sounds totally reasonable, there goes the series.

Situation (B): sounds like it would take a good chase before the Enterprise cought up and found a way to either ask for their surrender with or without damaging the ship enought first. So, in Situation B, what type of interaction would possibly take place when the two ships, aware of each other in time, meet within the correct distance.

question: whats the range of the ISD's weapons? Enterprises?
more to come, i'm sure....

tracer

04-30-2000, 07:25 PM

The range of the Enterprise's photon torpedoes, as given in The Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual section 11.3 page 130, is 3,500,000 kilometers.

That's about 8 times the distance from the Earth to the Moon, for those of you playing along at home.

SPOOFE

04-30-2000, 08:08 PM

I don't think there's a well-established distance for ISD's weapons. In the novels and movies, it's a sure thing that they can bombard a planet from orbit, which can be a few hundred kilometers or a few thousand kilometers. In the games, the range is just a couple of kilometers (which is the extreme low-end of the spectrum, which is why I never use the games as a reference). The highest range estimate I've heard for turbolasers is 8,000 kilometers, though I don't know of any official resources on that one.

So, for the purpose of argument, I think it's a safe bet to put the turbolaser range at roughly a 300-400 kilometers... any dispute...?

Of course, even 8,000 kilometers is pitiful compared to the range of a photon torpedo. But something that bugs me is the speed of the suckers... in "First Contact", a spread of torpedoes (yes, I know they were quantum torps and not photon torps) were launched at Dr. Cochran's ship (the Pheonix?), it took fifteen-twenty seconds for them to traverse that distance (and the Enterprise... the E, actually... was closer than 3,500,000 kilometers). So if the Enterprise fires from that distance, there's a chance that a Star Destroyer can take evasive action (yeah, they CAN maneuver... slightly... sorta...).

So the 'Prise would wanna shoot from a closer distance... which increases the likelihood of the Star Destroyer getting at it on its' own, etc. etc... so, either way, it's a risk.

Maybe we should petition George Lucas and whoever owns the rights to Star Trek to collaborate on this for a TV special.

carnivorousplant

04-30-2000, 08:11 PM

Oh, an NO vessel in SW ever manuvered (sp?) by using control surfaces....

(with the exception of the snow speeders, but they WERE operating in an atmosphere.)

I guess the wings on the fighters were for operating in atmosphere, but they ran their engines constantly which one would not do in a weightless vacumn, and banked and dove and climbed as though they were 'flying' instead of maneuvering (ha! I have my dictionary now) in space. The X-15 for example had control surfaces for atmosphere and control jets for the near outer space it reached.

BTW upon reflection I must admit that if Troi were driving the Empire would be victorious.

carnivorousplant

04-30-2000, 09:11 PM

Upon reflection, in at least one episode it is mentioned that NCC 1701 (no A, B, C or Bloody D)can destroy a planet. The Empire created the Deathstar for that specific purpose. I submit that Enterprise has heavier armament that the Empire Crusier. Actually, 1701 was a crusier. (The Search For Spock) I think 1701 is a the equivalent of our battleship although it is called Galaxy Class.
I think the more appropiate contest would be to put NCC1701 and Kirk up against a Death Star, or NCC 1701D against a Death Star and an Enpire cruiser.
Surely Trekkers would agree that any Federation vessel would be toast after a direct hit from a Death Star.

tracer

04-30-2000, 10:51 PM

SPOOFE Bo Diddly wrote:

in "First Contact", a spread of torpedoes (yes, I know they were quantum torps and not photon torps) were launched at Dr. Cochran's ship (the Pheonix?), it took fifteen-twenty seconds for them to traverse that distance (and the Enterprise... the E, actually... was closer than 3,500,000 kilometers).

I chalk that up to the same effect that allowed Riker to SEE and DODGE a hand-phaser beam fired at him in the first-season episode "Conspiracy".

Namely, dumb special-effects artists and even dumber scriptwriters who show futuristic weapon effects moving much more slowly than they should.

So if the Enterprise fires from that distance, there's a chance that a Star Destroyer can take evasive action (yeah, they CAN maneuver... slightly... sorta...).

If the Enterprise fires the straight-line-flight slow-as-molasses torpedoes they used in First Contact, my grandmother could take evasive action against them. (And she died over a decade ago! That's how slow those torpedoes were.)

Thing is, not only do "real" photon torpedoes (ST:TNG Tech Manual section 11.3) travel at warp speeds, in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, they rigged a photon torpedo to track and home in on a target. (A target with a cloaking device, no less!) So the Star Destroyer would have to (A) be able to detect an FTL torpedo coming at them, and (B) be able to maneuver faster than the torpedo can alter its own trajectory, in order to evade one.

SPOOFE

04-30-2000, 11:33 PM

I'm not saying that a Star Destroyer's gonna be able to dodge missiles... I was trying to bring up a point that you can't go by what you see in the movies or on TV due to, as Tracer pointed out, special effects wizards who don't care about how things would REALLY look and instead think about what would look cool.

As for the "fighters continuously running their engines" bit, that's sort of a pilot light of sorts... see, the engines need to be burning fuel to keep the reactor alive and running... the engines need to be kept burning so that shields, weapons, life support, communications, sensors, and such can be powered. To answer the maneuvering question (as far as X-wings go, at least) I offer this, from "Star Wars: Incredible Cross-sections":

"The X-wing achieves its remarkable maneuverability through a combination of three factors. Differential thrust from its four fusial ion engines is the first. High-mass electromagnetic gyros in each of the four retro thrusters add a turning effect that helps to swing the ship in tight curves. Finally, precise bursts of retro-thrust fire forward through the turbine nozzles to add further control and five the ship a critical edge in combat."

Of course, that all sounds quite techno-babble-esque, and the included diagram points to something that doesn't look much like a maneuvering thruster... but it's an explanation, I guess.

And I know that this is a huge tangent, but this whole thread has sorta become "Star Wars vs. Star Trek" instead of a Star Destroyer fighting the Enterprise... "when in Rome..."

soulsling

05-01-2000, 12:25 AM

i don't care for tangents myself really. so to stay on the original topic...

yeah, the deathstar once powered up would cream, fry, shake up, and make one hell of a dilithium smoothie from the Enterprise. No need to enter the ISD into that fight. How big were the borg cubes? the deathstar was the size of a small moon wasn't it? but the ISD vs. Enterprise... were still on situation B, what happens? we need scriptwriters...

SPOOFE

05-01-2000, 12:40 AM

This is strictly an eyeball comparison on my part about Borg cubes... but judging on the size of the Enterprise compared to a Borg cube, I'd say that they're probably a bit over a thousand meters on a side. So not exactly "longer" than a Star Destroyer, but definitely more massive... however, nowhere near the size of the Death Star.

Of course, there's no rule that says all Borg cubes have to be the same.

soulsling

05-01-2000, 12:46 AM

up as late as me spoof, your'e as sick as i.

so that still leaves the scenario of situation B.

sixseatport

05-01-2000, 09:38 AM

I just want to point out one thing here. Everyone has been taking evidence from the TV shows and movies for the abilities of the E and the ISD. Well, that's fine, because there is NO other source for this stuff.

But consider this:

In ST, the crew comes up with some bizarre and inovative tactic, or makes some funky modifications to the ship, everything works exactly as planned, and the good guys win.

In SW, the good guys fight with skill and bravery and good tactics and all that, everything goes exactly as planned (except in ESB) and the good guys win.

Of COURSE the Enterprise always wins -- they're the heroes! Of COURSE the ISD always loses, they're the BAD guys!

My point is that it's ridiculous to say, "Well, in one episode I saw Riker do this move, and they modified a tachyon photorp and fired it at warp 12 and blew up the Borg cube!" ....and then take that as some kind of example of what they would do to the ISD. I mean, think about it: Don't we all assume better qualities about the heroes of each little universe, and assume the worst about the villians? The only things about the heroes which is unlimited is their intelligence and bravery (and any other 'good' qualities you want to name), and the only unlimited quality about the villians is their depravity.

If we want to be fair about this, we should be comparing the Rebel fleet to Starfleet, and the Romulans (or Cardassians or whoever) to the Empire.

Perpetual winners vs. perpetual winners, and perpetual losers vs. perpetual losers. That way the skewed outcomes provided by mass-media presentations won't affect our judgement...too much.

carnivorousplant

05-01-2000, 09:46 AM

No contest. Picard says "No, wait we've got to talk!" and the Rebels blow him away. :)

soulsling

05-01-2000, 11:40 AM

like your style carn.

rebels vs. starfleet, thats choice.
i'd like to point out that the rebels could use some definite help with their wardrobe, might give them a better edge. personally, i've always been a fan of the blasters from the Black Hole (i know it's disney, so what.) those phasers look weak in ST. SW blasters definitely fit the fashion don'ts of the rebels carrying them.
:cool:

soulsling

05-01-2000, 11:43 AM

tracer

05-01-2000, 04:11 PM

A picture of an Imperial Star Destroyer blasting the original-series Enterprise:
http://members.tripod.com/~Spawk/trekkill.jpg

A picture of an Imperial Star Destroyer fighting a Borg cube: http://members.tripod.com/~Spawk/borgst.jpg

carnivorousplant

05-01-2000, 10:42 PM

For those of you who appreciate the humorous stuff I've posted, is there any interest in writing alternate scenes to a story? Just for laughs, of course. We could do two, one where Trek wins and another where SW wins. I guess we should start a new thread.

Spock: Captain, I have on sen-sors what appears to be an elaborate model rocket or Buck Rogers on steroids.

Kirk, eyeing Yeoman: Hmmm? Oh, ah hail them Uhura.

Uhura: Captain, they are signaling "May the Farce be with you!"

..and somebody takes it from there and runs with it.

Weirddave

05-01-2000, 11:01 PM

Tracer,

Nice pics. If you thought the SW geeks on this board were worse than the ST geeks, I can't imagine talking to those losers. :rolleyes:

carnivorousplant

05-01-2000, 11:07 PM

Smile when you say that, Dude! :)

Err, which Geeks are losers?

Weirddave

05-02-2000, 01:32 AM

All of us. Accept it.

tracer

05-02-2000, 09:09 AM

Darn it, I didn't realize those tripod.com links would cause an in-between page to pop up in Netscape Navigator.

soulsling

05-02-2000, 01:10 PM

looks like its turned into accept our geekliness or deny it "were really cool sf fans and no never wore those silly plastic ears at conventions, i mean what conventions, i never went to conventions..." :D

a great debate.
did we come up with anything?

soulsling

05-02-2000, 01:12 PM

soulsling

05-02-2000, 01:13 PM

tracer

05-02-2000, 01:36 PM

soulsling wrote:

a great debate.
did we come up with anything?

Yeah, that the Enterprise could kick a Star Destroyer's butt! Wham! Blam! Badam!

Weirddave

05-02-2000, 01:59 PM

tracer,

That's what I got from this too. Great minds, huh?

SPOOFE

05-02-2000, 03:30 PM

Great one-sided minds. I think we managed to show what would NEED to happen for the Enterprise to win (which is a lot more than is needed for the Star Destroyer to win). Now all we need is a scriptwriter.

Okay, okay, joking aside... here's what's been come up with:

The Star Destroyer is a sturdier ship. It has many many more weapons. It's crew is better-trained for combat. It has the support of 72 TIE fighters and several other support ships (assault gunboats and skipray blastboats). Its' captain would probably be impetuous and hasty. It has eight tractor beam projectors which would be capable of serving to imobilize the Enterprise. Its' hyperdrive allows for much faster speeds than the Enterprise's warp drive. Its' sensors probably wouldn't be able to detect the Enterprise in warp. It has two types of shielding, Ray and Particle, which protect it from harm until the shield has been blasted all the way through.

The Enterprise has much greater range with its' weapons. The Enterprise has faster sub-light speed and better maneuverability. It has transporters which may be used to its' advantage. It has better sensors. The crew has been trained for more unorthodox situations. The crew is less violent and more "regulated" than the ISD's. It can separate into the two sections. It can go to warp and dance circles around the Star Destroyer. Its' hull is a lot more frail. It has one type of shield (that fulfils the role of both Particle and Ray). The ship can receive damage before the shields are completely punched through. It has a lot more options on the battlefield (like spraying tachyon fields and such). It has Data.

So, obviously, both ships have advantages and disadvantages... so, Mr. Tracer, I don't think we've proven anything. Let's leave that up to Hollywood.

Speaking of which... can you imagine the merchandising that could come from something like this?!?

tracer

05-02-2000, 03:47 PM

And don't forget the ISD's lack of FTL weapons and sensors!

Plus, I don't think its tractor beams can lock onto an FTL object, or keep hold of an object that suddenly goes FTL. A tractor beam certainly prevents a vessel from jumping into hyperspace, of course -- if the Millennium Falcon or Princess Leia's blockade runner could've gotten out of the tractor beams in Episode IV by going to lightspeed, they would've done so -- but warp drive doesn't seem to have as picky a set of conditions for engaging it as hyperdrive does.

Tractor beams in Star Trek, at least according to Star Fleet Battles, are fully capable of dragging something at warp speed. I'll have to check this with the official ST:TNG Tech Manual, though, and that's in my other pants right now.

SPOOFE

05-02-2000, 04:43 PM

Yeah, I forgot the thing about FTL sensors and such...

But tractor beams? That is cofusing. Certainly the Star Destroyer could easily snag the 'Prise before it goes to warp... but whether or not the tractor beams would prevent it from going to warp is a real grey area. I mean, the only thing that would screw up the ISD's tractor beam would be the warp field that the Enterprise needs to generate... but, then again, the warp field doesn't screw up ST tractor beams, and I think it's a safe assumption that both series' tractor beams would be very similar.

So whenever our fictional scriptwriter gets to that point in the story, he can always just toss a coin.

Icerigger

05-02-2000, 05:42 PM

A few more things for comparison. The Enterprise's navigational deflectors enable it to fly through an asteroid field unscathed (Mudds Women) while the ISDs were severely damaged when they did the same thing in TESB. The phaser banks can lay waste to the entire surface of a planet this has been mentioned in many episodes. The problem with this debate is we have never seen the ISD do anything that would lead one to believe it has great firepower, remember in Jedi a couple of X-wings were able to take out it's shield generators and a collision with one A-wing caused it to spin out of control. In "Balance of Terror" the Enterprise withstood a nuclear explosion from only 100 meters away. The Enterprise is the far superior combat vessel.

tracer

05-02-2000, 06:12 PM

Icerigger wrote:

The Enterprise's navigational deflectors enable it to fly through an asteroid field unscathed (Mudds Women) while the ISDs were severely damaged when they did the same thing in TESB.

Those two asteroid fields could have been of vastly different densities. In the real Asteroid Belt in our (Earth's) solar system, you could hurtle an unguided spacecraft through the thickest part of the Belt edge-on, and it would still only have a 1-in-100 chance of hitting anything bigger than a grain of sand. In the asteroid field in The Empire Strikes Back, you couldn't sneeze without running into a giant rock.

In "Balance of Terror" the Enterprise withstood a nuclear explosion from only 100 meters away.

Explosions in a vacuum lose their oomph a lot faster with distance than explosions in the air do. The main reason Little Boy did so much damage to Hiroshima was because of its shock wave; no air, no shock wave.

Monster104

05-02-2000, 09:26 PM

The idea that the phaser banks can lay waste to the surface of the planet is a theory, and as far as I can tell it was mentioned in one episode. It has never actually been done by the Enterprise(At least as far as I know).

Only one ISD was severely damaged in TESB (The one in which it's bridge was knocked clean off). The turbolasers on the rest of the IDS's managed to vaporize any asteroids before they could hit.

Monster104

05-02-2000, 09:28 PM

tracer

05-02-2000, 09:37 PM

Since a photon torpedo can carry a warhead of up to 40-50 megatons, it would be possible to wipe out all life on Earth with a big enough barrage of them. But it would take hundreds of them to do so -- probably more than the 275 total photorp casings carried by a Galaxy-class starship.

I suppose you could lay waste to the rest of the planet with phasers, but it would take a long time.

SPOOFE

05-02-2000, 10:23 PM

Of course, the Enterprise wouldn't WANT to lay waste to entire planet (that'd be barbaric... hehe...).

As for the "asteroid smashing into the bridge" bit in ESB... I chalk that up mostly to the filmmaker's desire to create a really cool-looking effect for the camera (and they were right, weren't they?). And Tracer was right... in one of the Star Wars books (I don't remember which one... if someone REALLY wants, I can dig it up) it's mentioned that the asteroid belt in Anoat (the system it all took place in) was an extremely dense field.

soulsling

05-03-2000, 10:02 AM

The ISD can easily just come straight for the Enterprise and blast it to all hell, before Picard even gets them on any hailing frequencies. In an episode, i imagine (and i'm really sick for doing this) that tie fighters buzz around the Enterprise blasting bits and pieces here and there, confusing the hell out of the Enterprise crew and forcing them to have a meeting in the ready room about predicting a pattern where they could strengthen their shields where ever the fighters attack, meanwhile, Darth is trying to lure troi into his bedchamber using the force, making her think she feels his feelings as genuinely good and compassionate and compelling her to give up the secrets of the Enterprise, he lets his General still standing loose to attack the Enterprise with the ISD rays while signaling for the DeathStar to rendevous with them at those coordinates to finally anihalate the E. Troi falls for it, but not before Riker gets jealous and goes on a solo mission in a runabout to try and board the ISD where he happens to bump into the falcon and Han, sees the princess and decides a little sidetrip to the utility closet is in order. Data figures there is no pattern and gets a subspace band message frequencied to only his ability to hear it with his positronic brain from R2D2 about the working innards of the ISD. The princess knees Riker in the groin, a storm trooper happens upon them and holding phaser to thier heads, is joined by several other troopers where they are taken to the jail cells over the ships garbage disposal system. Han and the wookie run around the ISD playing tag. Picard decides he will not give up, and requests to open hailing frequencies again, meanwhile, Geordi has lost his visor in an explosion in engineering because in all this time the ship is being blasted to pieces, and all the security officers aboard the ship are dead by now. Storm troopers board the ship and gather everyone back to the ISD where standing before Darth, they watch as the E is shredded and burned, while Deanna is scantilly clad aside Darth all aglow with smiles at her new hard hatted friend. Riker is brought before them in chains with the princess, Deanna smirks at him having thought something happened between them, Picard demands to have a message sent to the Federation, Darth chokes him until Worf lunges in to bite Darths neck, but breaks some teeth on the helmet. troi says something about sensing much discord in the already tense atmosphere sorrounding the crew's discomfort. She pets darts head, Darth flings Worf back a few hundred feet into the wall, whips out the saber and cuts off Geordis hands and says, "Ha, you are blind and handless now foolish Federation officer!" Data makes a move but is held back by Picard, Darth finishes to choke Picard and Picard slumps dead on the ground, troi cries and leaves Darth, Riker follows after but is held back by the chains.

The Deathstar arrives, and is ordered to destroy earth if it doesnt' accept Darths rule.
.......

To be continued....

carnivorousplant

05-03-2000, 10:50 AM

Enter Darth Vader with Picard's head on a pike.

Weirddave

05-03-2000, 11:20 AM

"Lord Vader......Lord Vader.....Sir, we have that ship in sight again."

Darth Varer awoke with a start, still seated in the command chair of his ISD. Beneith his breathing mask, a wry smile touched the corner of his lips as he considered how the encounter with these "Federations" had really gone.
"Very well, close to attack range." The ISD had detected an unknow ship entering the sector from an unknown sector of space. It had identified itself as a "Federation" starship, the U.S.S. Enterprise. It's Captain, an inane being named Picard, had prattled on about interstellar cooperation and so fourth, that Vader had felt compelled to reach out and choke the idiot. Beings with such a weak code would surely then surrender, after seing their leader killed from a distance.

Darth sighed again. It haden't hapened. The Enterprise had wheeled and disappeared from his screens in a burst of light. Darth had felt his grip on Picard slipping, and then gone. He knew that, baring a great deal of luck, Picard would have survived. The Empire's scientists still weren't sure what method of travel the other ship had used to escape, except to state that it was not hyperspace, but perhapse a simiar phenominon. They had been able to track the other ship, though, and Vader had been following it for days, determined to have this new drive for the Emperor.
Vader stood, and strode to the front of the bridge.
"This time they shall have No chance," he said. " launch all Tie fighters, ready all weapons! Captain, how long until we are within range of that ship?"
" Ten Minutes, Lord Vader."
"Excellent.." Darth broke off as the Star Destroier lurched. He looked in amazement at the screen as the Enterprise attacked his ship from ten times farther away than he was capable of firing! A succession of projectiles was striking the ISD, and from the sound of things, doing quite a bit of dammage. He heard reports of the destruction of the bridge shields, and the efforts of the technitions to fix them. Nevermind, he HAD to strike back.
" Navigator! I want a Micro hyper jump to put us right up against the other ship, hear? They may be powerful, but we outgun them by a sizable factor. Weapons, stand by to fire everything we have. NOW."

"Damage report, Mr. Laforge!" Captain Jean-Luc Picard fought his way across the smoking bridge of the Enterprise as systems struggled to compensate for the massive attack they had just absorbed. "Data, evasive pattern Omega 3! Put some distance between us!"

"Captain! We were hit with primitave laser weapons, but with an incredible number of them. Shields are down to 68%, The warp core is offline. I'm realigning the injectors now, we should have warp drive in 2 minutes."

" Make it so, Geordie. Data, whats the tactical situation."

" I am evading most of the enemies weapons, sir, but believe there is only a 47% chance that I can continue to do so for more than 5.3 minutes."

"We only need 2 minutes. keep it up!"

{{{I'll finish this story later today. I know how it's gonna turn out, I just don't have time right this second-Dave}}}

soulsling

05-03-2000, 12:00 PM

"Lord Vader, we have them in range now!"
FIRE WITH EVERYTHING WE HAVE! (Lieutenant, make sure Bell is covering our ships insurance..) NOW! RELEASE ALL TIE FIGHTERS!

"Captain, LaForge here, i've got it online, i think we have enough power for warp..."
"Thank you Geordi, Deanna, wake up, you've wet the chair again, Riker, shave, i don't want you looking stupid when we meet with this fashionably outdated fool they call Darth Vader. What kind of name is that anyway? Is that Jewish? he doesn't sound Jewish..."
enter Data- "Captain, i believe i have traced the origin of their ship, it dates back to what i can only describe as far far away, a long time ago"
"Very well Data, Geordi, give me everything you've got, Helm, Engage, Full Warp!"
worf-"Captain, i am preparing our security officers for an encounter, do you have any suggestions?"
"No Worf, get lots of vulcans and Klingons, and any andorans, if it comes down to it, we need to beat them, and Data, figure out how we can defend against their weapons and still maintain an open channel so i can discuss peace with them as motley as they are..."
Troi- "Captain, i just had this wonderful dream about a very ugly white man with the voice of a very distinguished black man trying to save me money on my calls home to my mother, you do remember my mother don't you Captain?"

------

soulsling

05-03-2000, 12:06 PM

soulsling

05-03-2000, 12:06 PM

sixseatport

05-03-2000, 02:20 PM

Just as Troi begins to get an odd feeling that they've repeated the same actions several times in a row, which Data thinks might be due to some odd wormhole-spacetime warping effect, Vader watches from a section of space which doesn't violate the laws of physics and orders the final turbolaser barrage fired on the puny vessel, destroying it instantly.......

carnivorousplant

05-03-2000, 02:33 PM

...but time folds in on itself and the starship reassembles.

"Lord Vader. Telephone, Sir. It's (snicker) Your Mother."
"Rats", mutters Darth Vader, slaying the messenger, "Just when I'm having fun!"

Weirddave

05-03-2000, 03:04 PM

Oh, hell. Nevermind. I was trying to be "serious" ( so to speak. I guess i'll have to think of something goofy now.

soulsling

05-03-2000, 03:28 PM

my apologies for the triple play, my mac at work was slow and stuttered some, my pc at home is feeling way better now :)

oh and...

HOW THE HELL COULD YOU HAVE BEEN TRYING TO BE SERIOUS?????
i thought i was sick. :eek:

carnivorousplant

05-03-2000, 03:40 PM

...but time folds in on itself and the starship reassembles.
"Damn!" muttered Vader. "This region of space isn't supposed to intgerfer with the laws of physics. Oh, they're in THAT region of space."

"Lord Vader." an attendent approached. "Telephone, Sir. It's (snicker) Your Mother."
"Rats", mutters Darth Vader, absent mindedly strangling the messenger with the Power Of The Dark Side, "Just when I'm having fun!" He winced as the telephone smacked against his helmet.
"Hello, Mom....Yes, I remember how you taught me to drive..." He nodded vigorously "and kept me safe from the robots...Mom, I'm REALLY busy now, I have ships to destroy, planets to crush, races to enslave, that kind of thing...What do you want, a medal?"
Vader angrily hung up.

tracer

05-03-2000, 03:45 PM

That's odd, Vader thought. I thought my mother died back in Espisode II. And what in Palpatine's name is a "telephone"? Is it anything like a comlink?

tracer

05-03-2000, 03:53 PM

weirddave: As far as I'm concerned, if the Star Destroyer manages to knock out the Enterprise's warp drive, even temporarily, the Enterprise is space dust.

carnivorousplant

05-03-2000, 04:13 PM

"Wait a minute!" Vader crushed the telephone, "My Mother dead in Episode II calls, Episode II not yet filmed, I destroyed the Enterprise, but I didn't, my comlink is...was...a telephone...A parallel universe/time warp/whatchmacallit! Oh how I hate this Trek stuff! Am I the "real" Darth Vader? Oh, perfidious Albion...err, Trek!"
Vader put his hand in his pocket and began angrily pacing back and forth.

SPOOFE

05-03-2000, 05:04 PM

All the stress has made Captain Picard sweat, and the entire bridge crew is blinded by the light reflecting off his bald head. Riker stumbles into the turbolift which takes him down to gunnery control. He falls into one of the photon torpedo launch tubes. Up on the bridge, Data, who's electronic eyes have been short-circuited due to the massive amounts of reflected light, accidently presses the "fire" button. Riker is launched out and splats against the ISD's forward viewscreen. Vader orders the window wipers to be engaged. He then orders Tractor Control to lock onto the Enterprise with all tractor beams and spin the sucker around until everyone onboard is profusely ill. After several minutes of intense rotation (creating so many G-forces that the inertial dampers weren't able to completely compensate), everyone on board the Enterprise is rendered blind and nauseous. A squadron of TIE bombers is sent out, and their full salvo of missiles shatters the Enterprise's forward hull like it was cardboard. The final few blasts from the Star Destroyer's turbolasers melt the entire saucer section (fortunately, the entire Enterprise crew had been flung into Engineering from the forced rotation). Before the Star Destroyer could obliterate the rest of the ship, Q shows up and puts everyone on trial. However, Darth counter-challenges Q to a game of sabacc, which he wins easily (Darth is quite the gambler). Q gets so angry that he slams his foot into the ground so hard it gets stuck. He tries to pull his foot out, but only succeeds in ripping himself in half. The resulting explosion from the death of a Q disintegrates the remainders of the Enterprise, but the Star Destroyer safely escapes to hyperspace with only a bit of structural damage and a few lost fighters that weren't able to get back into the hangar in time. On to Cardassia!

carnivorousplant

05-03-2000, 05:50 PM

Picard blinked. Maybe it was the reflection from his head.
"Mr. Dater, what was that?"
"The Queen of hearts, Sir."
"On the viewscreen, you idiot!"
Data hastily mimimized the Freecell game and studied his instruments. "A time temporal frontal lobotomy, Sir."
"Caused by a tachyon pulse?"
"No, Sir. This area of space does not allow the laws of pysics to be altered, and we do so frequently."

There was a flash and a figure with a helmet and robe like his own appeared next to Vader. "Murphie murph. Murtle marph."
Q tore the helmet from his head. "How do you BREATHE in this thing?" He demanded. "Don't worry about this time
stuff. I'm omnipotent, and frankly even I find it a bit
tiresome at times. But you'll get to mince Jean-Luc and his
minions all over again. It will be two mince in one!"
"Candy mint." muttered Vader resonately.
"Beg pardon?"
Vader raised his hand towards Q, whose eyes began to buldge.
"Later, Smiley." A flash and he was gone.
"I hate Trek."

"Captain," Troi spoke hesitantly, from confusion or a too tight uniform.
Picard rolled his eyes. "Yes."
"I am sensing a great anger, a huge hatred."
"Well I am damn mad!"
"Not from you, Captain from...long ago and far away."
Picard frowned. "Directed towards whom?"
Troi's usual blank, glazed expression turned into a blank,
glazed fron. "At...Ron Moore."

Weirddave

05-03-2000, 06:04 PM

did nobody notice "Serious" was in quotes? We need a tongue in cheek smiley. :rolleyes:

soulsling

05-03-2000, 09:05 PM

my stomach hurts from too much laughing, and my girlfriend is finally convinced of my dorkdom.

thanx.

on to some BOFH coloumns for the cool down.

good work fellas. :D

Monster104

05-03-2000, 09:07 PM

After about the 50 quadrabillionth time that the Enterprise has gone through the cycle of being destroyed and then reassembled...

Troi: Captain, I sense we're stuck in a temporal time rift, causing us to loop through a cycle of destruction.
Picard: What can we do about it?
Data: Well, sir, if exactly at 4.598 seconds after the temporal rift occurs, we should be able to reprogram a photon torpedo with a time-altering warhead and fire behind us, so the next temporal rift will close the next time we are destroyed and reassembled.
Picard: Make it so.
Wesley: Sir, I have a role to do...I'm supposed to screw everything up right about now!
Picard: (Sigh) launch him with the torpedo.
Wesley: AAAHH!!!

Aboard the ISD...

Captain: Lord Vader, we appear to be stuck in a situation similar to that of Groundhog Day!
Vader: That was a great movie...
Captain: We need to find a way out or we will be eternally blasting the Enterprise to bits over and over and over and over again.
Vader:...I'd really like to rob a bank and not get in trouble...and I wonder what it would be like to die and be alive the next day...
Captain: Let's ask the Enterprise what it feels like!

Aboard the Enterprise...

Picard: Damn that Wesley! He threw the torpedo off course...

Monster104

05-03-2000, 09:09 PM

carnivorousplant

05-03-2000, 09:49 PM

"Q! This is your doing!" exclaimed Picard.
Q appeared leaning over Picard's command chair. "Why, Jean-Luc! I'm crushed!"
"Mr. Dater!" Demanded Picard in the silly-for-a-Frenchman English accent, "When will we begin the cycle again?"
"In 1.9999999999999999999999..."
"TWO, You cross between a microwave and a boom-box, the answer is two!"

A flash of light. Q and Picard are standing beside Darth Vader, who began writing "I Hate Star Trek" repeadedly on the bulkhead with a piece of black chalk. "Captain Picard. What an annoying torpedo. But now, you seem to Be At My Mercy."

"Mr. Worf."
Worf took a step towards Vader and froze. "I..." he struggled to speak, "will kill you...right here.."
"And now I shall take control of your vessel, Captain."
"Vader! No!" exclaimed Picard.
Vader pressed a switch.

"Thank you for pressing the self destruct button. This ship will self distruct if five (5) minutes. Have a nice day!"

"The Hell is that?" muttered Vader.
"The computer, you idiot!" screamed Riker.

Flash.

Picard, Riker and the rest of the crew were aboard the Imperial cruiser.
"Q!" cried out, "You blithering idiot! You've changed crews and ships!"
"Not grammatically or logically correct, Jean-Luc, old sod," quipped Q, to change ships AND crew, everyone would be where they belonged. Much more interesting this way."
"Captain," asked the prepetually confused Troi, "What does this lever do?"
"NO!" screamed Riker, "For G-d's sake don't let her drive!"
The Crusier leapt to top speed, on a collison course with Enterprise.
"Captain," remarked the Android, "We are on a collison..."
"I can read, Mr. Dater! Now stop the ship!"
"I shall attempt to, Sir, put this controls are far away from the Enterprises and a long time..." The frown from Picard stopped him cold, and he muttered a colorful metaphor under his breath.

"Lt. Chicago." Intoned Vader.
"I am Lt. Detroit, Sir, You zapped Lt. Chicago yesterday when he only put one coat of wax on you fighter."
"Whoever. Whatever. I hate Star Trek" mumbled Vader.

The Crusier impacted Enterprise just as the self destruct mechanism exploded.

Flash.

Picard rubbed his eyes. "Not again, Mr. Dater?"

"Not exactly, Sir. The release of energy has sealed the tim continum flux wormhole thingie, fried our Zilch coils and returned both ships to their proper time, space, movie theater, whatever."

"Theatre." Corrected Picard.

"No! Not again! I hate star trek!" Vader began jumping up and down. "Kill! Kill! Ki...what happened?"

"The relase of energy has..."

"AND I don't want to hear any Star Trek techno babble! What happened?"

"Ah, Sir, well. Err, ah...the enemy is destroyed, Sir." improvised Lt. Chicago or Detroit, your humble author has lost track of who (whom?) Darth Vader zapped when under what circumstances, stepping between Vader and the instruments.

Vader smiled (as if we would know, but one can't keep on writing 'he said'). "Set a course for the Rebel Base. Any Rebel Base. Find me something to shoot at on the way."

"Captain," Data intoned in his annoying voice, "I have calculated that there is a 99.9999999999999..."

"One hundred." muttered Picard.

"Percent chance" continued Data some time and repeating digits later "that the Wesley torpedo may have followed us through the rift if that is so..if that is so...if that is so..."

To be continued?

Monster104

05-04-2000, 12:02 AM

"Lord Vader!" exclaimed lt. Chicago or Detroit, "We are detecting a massive energy buildup a thousand kilometers to port!"
"What the hell is going on now..." Mutters Vader...

Aboard the Enterprise...

"Captain! The Wesley Torpedo opened a black hole energy rift in the fabric of the space/time continuum...we're being sucked in...!"

5 seconds later...

"What! My head is on the body of that wuss Picard!" Exclaimed the misplaced Vader mask...

"Wow! I feel energies coursing through my body...wait a minute...I'm more than half machine!" Declared the waxed shiny head of Picard.

And what is the fate of the Enterprise and the ISD in this unusual (Yet it has happened somewhat in ST episodes of Voyager...) mix-up in universes?

SPOOFE

05-04-2000, 03:09 AM

While Picard is trying to figure out his new cyborg-Sith body, Ren and Stimpy run by with armloads of dirty left-foot socks. They drop them at the feet of Darth Picard and light them on fire.

"What are you doing?" Darth Picard demands.

"Cooking some cat litter!" Stimpy says, pulling out a bag of, yes, cat litter. He tosses the cat litter on the fire, and the resulting chemical reaction causes a wham-dingy in the shiftal fluxteration of the time/space continuum's voctronical equinoxical stability. Every particle in the universe is instantly transformed into an inky-dinky can of Spam. The universe exists like this for five seconds (no more, no less) before everything shifts back to normal... or... IS it normal?

carnivorousplant

05-04-2000, 08:08 AM

Picard kicked a can of Spam out of his way and sighed.
"Open a comlin...channel, Mr. Worf."
Darth Vader's visage appeared on the viewscreen. "What is it NOW?"
"Our recent experience has caused me to pose a question for you, Mr. Vader. Have you ever seen Wesley Crusher and Luke Skywalker together at the same time?"
"S--t." Sighed Darth Vader.
"I'm getting a very bad feeling about this." muttered Riker, "oh no....OH NO!"
"And that means..." Picard suggested to Vader.
Vader frowned (I think, it's hard to tell) "That we are anthesis...antheses...the same person but different. You, icky and good, I cool and evil. What about the pesky Yoda and that obnoxious Dater? err, Data?"
"Found us out, you have." Mumbled Data/Yoda "3.14159287..."
"What is it, Mr. Dater?" inquired Picard.
"Nonrepeating decimals talking backwards how difficult it is any idea?"
Picard said a very bad word.
"And what am I, chopped liver?" demanded Troi.
Vader eyed Troi. "Mother?"
Chewbacca was staring a Worf.
"No!" screamed Worf, "No! I'm going to kill this thread, right now!"
And he did.

soulsling

05-04-2000, 08:36 AM

Riker: "... where are we?"
Chewee: "Whrrrrraaaaaawwwwwooooooo!"
Worf: "We seem to be floating in nothingness sir."
Troi: "I sense a great deal of nothingness Commander."

Riker: "Dammit woman, thats because you're not wearing anything,...er..., um, say, why don't we look for a utility closet or something?"

Darth: "Damn, now i'll never get to blow anything up, without my ship, i'll just settle for using the force on all of you, mwa ha ha ha ha!"

Data: "Technically you can not Mr. Vader. It is improbable that the force will..gurgle....urr..grog........."

Riker: "I never like that droid anyway..."
Picard: "Thats enough, i'm going off to do some Broadway, anyone want to join me?"

Darth: "Nah, i think i'll stick to Phone Commercials, i like these phone thingies :) maybe i can auction off this damned uncomfortable uniform, say, who are your tailors?"

Wesley: "MOMMEEEEEEEEEE!"
Dr.Crusher: "Not..now...(heavy panting).. son, i'm... (more heavy panting)...busy with...the ....cap-...OOOOHHHH...-tain."
*(flash)*
Darth: "Damn trek!"

Worf: "Grrrrrr!"
Chewee: "Wwroooowrrrrr!
Tasha Yar: "Hi, how'd you guys finally find me?"
Data: "Tasha! this doesn't calculate!!!!"
*(blink)*

.....nothingness.

:D

Esprix

05-04-2000, 01:43 PM

weirddave, A for effort, man! It was good... but I stopped reading after yours. I understand you wanted to be 'serious'.

Esprix

carnivorousplant

05-04-2000, 06:09 PM

Troi: Darth, I wanted you to know that I feel that we have made great progress in your therapy.

Vader: Really?

Troi: Yes, we have. Now, I am going to show you some ink blots, and I want you to tell me what they remind you of, okay?

Vader: Sure....That one is the Ent...(cough) a Rebel ship exploding....A planet crushed by the Deathstar...another crushed planet...a pile of dead ewoks...

Troi: I think that's enough of that. Now, you seem to have placed certain events in your life into what you can "episodes", that are not numbered chronologically. Could you explain that?

Vader: I'm not sure why they are called epidodes...My Deathstar was destroyed in Episode I; was nearly succesfull in Episode II; I died in Episode III after being reunited with myson...I met Obe-Wan in Episode I and my Mother died in Episode II.

Troi: Yet you do not remember how she died. Who was Obe-wan?

Vader: A man who taught me about the Force in Episode II.

(Troi's eyes narrow)

Troi: Darth, tell me about Obi-Wan and the "Force".

Vader: Most of that was in Episode II, which hasn't been filmed yet.

Troi: What did Obe-Wan...force you to do?

Vader: Are you deaf or stupid? I told you, Episode II hasn't been written yet!

Troi: Darth, are there many things about your relationship with Obe-Wan that or episode two you cannot remember?

(Vader sighs)

Troi: I'd like to hypnotize you and see if we can help you recall some of the abuse er, recall episode two. Now, watch my com badge on the chain. You are getting sleepy, you are
remembering...

Vader: zzzzzzzzzz

(BEEP) "Bridge to Counselor Troi."
Troi: Commander, I'm rather busy now.

Riker: It's an emergency, Troi, and it will only take a moment.

(Editorial aside: Would anyone except Troi fall for this? Maybe Wesley.)

Troi: On my way. I'll be right back, Darth.

Vader: zzzzzzzzzzz

(moments after Troi leaves, Riker arrives. Cut to Troi reentering.)

Troi: No one of the bridge knew what it was about....

Riker: Darth, get me a cup of coffee.

Vader: Yes, Master.

Troi: TOM! Sometimes you make me SO mad!