Dual EC Citizenship

[Shiva418]

I've always wondered about this. I was born on an american military base in Spain. I still have my Spanish birth cirtifiate and everything. Do I have dual citizenship? Would I be elligeble for an EC passport?

[First Amongst Daves]

I would think yes, but I think you'd need to ask a Spanish immigration agent.

My daughter is half-Australian half-Swedish and was born in Hong Kong, but qualifies for an EU passport through her mother.

Being born in Spain, but having, I assume, American parents should qualify you for a Spanish/EU passport, but I guess the quirk would be the US military base, which I think might be considered US sovereign turf.

[Tripler]

FWIW, you seem to be (http://travel.state.gov/acquisition.html) a US citizen by law, and by virtue of being born by American citizens on American soil at a military base.

What Spain does with your birth, is a whole other story. I would say that if someone calls into question that you have a birth certificate, that doesn't mean much--just means that you were born and someone recorded it for an official "birth date".

However, if you have a passport or other 'citizenship papers' from Spain, that's a whole other story.

I doubt you would qualify for an EU passport.

Tripler
Unless one of your parents were European. . . :confused:

[sailor]

>> FWIW, you seem to be a US citizen by law, and by virtue of being born by American citizens on American soil at a military base.

No. An American base is not American soil in any way which is why the US government is using Guantánamo to try to get around the US constitution. if he was born of American parents he was born an American citizen and the place of birth is irrelevant.

>> Being born in Spain, but having, I assume, American parents should qualify you for a Spanish/EU passport

Why do you think so? Most countries do not grant citizenship to those born there from foreign parents. The USA is an exception to the rule.

[First Amongst Daves]

Originally posted by sailor

Why do you think so? Most countries do not grant citizenship to those born there from foreign parents. The USA is an exception to the rule.

With most European countries, I understood being born there gets you citizenship, as does Australia and New Zealand.

In Hong Kong, if you are Chinese ethnicity, being born there can get you right of abode (equivalent of citizenship).

Japan and most Arab countries follow paternity (there are 3rd generation people of Korean heritage born in Japan who cannot get Japanese citizenship). With African and South American countries, I have no idea.

[sailor]

Originally posted by The God of Muesli Bars
With most European countries, I understood being born there gets you citizenship, I believe you are mistaken. I know there are turks who have lived in Germany for generations and have not acquired citizenship. I believe Spain does not grant citizenship to those born of foreign parents either. What is the basis for your understanding? Do you have any supporting evidence? In Hong Kong, if you are Chinese ethnicity, being born there can get you right of abode (equivalent of citizenship). My goodness, could you possibly pick an example more full of holes? Right of abode is "right to reside" and not "citizenship". And I won't deal with the "chinese ethnicity" issue because that's a whole 'nother can of worms. Japan and most Arab countries follow paternity (there are 3rd generation people of Korean heritage born in Japan who cannot get Japanese citizenship). There you go.

[Tripler]

Originally posted by sailor
No. An American base is not American soil in any way which is why the US government is using Guantánamo to try to get around the US constitution. if he was born of American parents he was born an American citizen and the place of birth is irrelevant.

I fully disagree. Embassies are by de facto American soil (an example (http://cairo.usembassy.gov/ambassador/sp070303.htm)scroll down or do a search for "soil") , why aren't military bases? We don't practice Kuwaiti law at Ahmed Al Jaber AB. If nothing more than by rule of force within that barbed wire perimeter, we're practicing American law, and while some may be leased, it's American soil.

And we're getting around the Guantánamo bay detainees by calling them "enemy combatants" [sub]which seems to be a way of not calling them "prisoners of war".

Tripler
I would think there would be a way to classify these detainees in a black or white case by now though. . . :dubious:

[sailor]

A newborn is a Spanish national regardless of place of birth IF one of the parents is a Spanish national

A newborn is a Spanish national if born in Spain AND:
- one of the parents was also born in Spain (excluding diplomats and other foreign officials) OR
- if the parents have no nationality or their countries refuse to recognise the child as their national OR
- if it is impossible to determine who the parents are.
Source: http://www.e-todolegal.com/nacionalidades/index.php

I would believe the exception regarding "diplomats and other foreign officials" would also apply to foreign military personnel.

[First Amongst Daves]

Originally posted by sailor
I believe you are mistaken. I know there are turks who have lived in Germany for generations and have not acquired citizenship. I believe Spain does not grant citizenship to those born of foreign parents either. What is the basis for your understanding? Do you have any supporting evidence?


You have picked the two EU countries I don't know about (plus Portugal). All the rest of the EU countries, plus Norway, to the best of my knowledge allow citizenship to people born in their borders.


My goodness, could you possibly pick an example more full of holes?

Yes, Portuguese citizenship for Chinese Macanese, which I understand is quite messy.


Right of abode is "right to reside" and not "citizenship". And I won't deal with the "chinese ethnicity" issue because that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

No, "right of abode" gives you a PRC passport and citizenship, as well as the right to live in Hong Kong. The Chinese ethnicity rule is gradually being eroded by the High Court of Hong Kong - a girl of Indian ethnicity has right of abode in Hong Kong (as reported by the South China Morning Post a few months back).

Cite? Certainly: http://www.immd.gov.hk/ehtml/topical_3.htm

[sailor]

Originally posted by Tripler
I fully disagree. Embassies are by de facto American soil (an example (http://cairo.usembassy.gov/ambassador/sp070303.htm)scroll down or do a search for "soil") , why aren't military bases? We don't practice Kuwaiti law at Ahmed Al Jaber AB. If nothing more than by rule of force within that barbed wire perimeter, we're practicing American law, and while some may be leased, it's American soil.

[quote]And we're getting around the Guantánamo bay detainees by calling them "enemy combatants" [sub]which seems to be a way of not calling them "prisoners of war".

Tripler
I would think there would be a way to classify these detainees in a black or white case by now though. . . :dubious: Nope. Wrong. Wrong on *every* count. Let's see. . . .

In spite of popular belief and of figures of speech embassies are *not* under the unlimited sovereignty of the country they belong to. They enjoy by treaty and by convention and reciprocity many immunities but they are not under the unlimited sovereignty of the country they belong to. No way. For example, the USA can sell the building of its embassy in Madrid but it cannot transfer the non-existant sovereignty to another nation. And I have serious doubts that if a Spanish employee of the embassy happens to give birth on the job the newborn would acquire American citizenship at birth by right.

>> why aren't military bases?

Because they are not embassies and because they are even further removed from the immunities embassies enjoy. The American bases in Spain are in *NO* way considered US territory, legally or otherwise. Legally they are denominated as "bases of joint Spanish-American use" and Americans may enjoy certain exemptions by treaty (SOFA) but to say an American base in Spain is US territory is extremely ignorant of the issue. Again, show me that if any foreign employee gives birth on the base the child is legally entitled to American citizenship.

And The USA government maintains that Guantánamo not being US soil the "detainees" are not entitled to the full protection of US laws. If you disagree then take it up with President Bush, The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., Washington DC.

[sailor]

Originally posted by The God of Muesli Bars
You have picked the two EU countries I don't know about (plus Portugal). All the rest of the EU countries, plus Norway, to the best of my knowledge allow citizenship to people born in their borders. I have picked the only country relevant to the OP and another one at random. You say the majority of countries in Europe and the world grant citizenship by birth on their soil? I doubt it. Please show me evidence that Switzerland grants it because I do not believe it does. The UK? I did some digging to support my assertion, do I have to do it all? Will you please show some support for your assertion? Let's see Switzerland, the UK, France and a couple more countries of your choosing. In the meanwhile I believe the general rule is that countries consider newborns to be of the citizenship of their parents.

[sailor]

Originally posted by The God of Muesli Bars
Cite? Certainly: http://www.immd.gov.hk/ehtml/topical_3.htm You know, if you are going to provide cites you might want to choose those which support what you say and not what I say. That site fully supports my assertion that right of abode and citizenship are totally different: http://www.immd.gov.hk/ehtml/topical_3_1.htm

Right of Abode

The right of abode (ROA) in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (HKSAR) means :-
The right .....
to land in the HKSAR;
to be free from any condition of stay (including a limit of stay) in the HKSAR;
not to be deported from the HKSAR; and
not to be removed from the HKSAR.


"Chinese citizen" means a person of Chinese nationality under the Nationality Law of the People's Republic of China (CNL) (see Part 9), as implemented in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region pursuant to Article 18 of and Annex III to the Basic Law and interpreted in accordance with the Explanations of Some Questions by the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress concerning the Implementation of the Nationality Law of the People's Republic of China in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (see Part 9) adopted at the 19th meeting of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress at the 8th National People's Congress on 15 May 1996.

In other words ....

Persons who have Chinese nationality under the CNL include Hong Kong residents and former residents who are of Chinese descent and born in the Mainland of China or Hong Kong, notwithstanding that they hold, or have held Hong Kong British Dependent Territories Citizen passports, British National (Overseas) passports; or (subject to Part 6 below) any other foreign passports.

[First Amongst Daves]

As this is becoming an exercise in pedantry, you said:


Right of abode is "right to reside" and not "citizenship".

To which I said:


No, "right of abode" gives you a PRC passport and citizenship, as well as the right to live in Hong Kong.

...and provided the link.

You then wrote:


That site fully supports my assertion that right of abode and citizenship are totally different

In fact, wrapping a cold towel around my head and re-reading it, the link doesn't specifically state whether you do or do not acquire PRC citizenship upon gaining right of abode. My apologies for clouding the issue.

The question is in fact obliquely answered here:

http://www.immd.gov.hk/ehtml/topical_2.htm


Q2 Am I a Chinese citizen?
A2 You are a " Chinese citizen" if you have Chinese nationality under the Chinese Nationality Law as elaborated in " the interpretation of Chinese Nationality Law when applying in the HKSAR" passed by the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress of the Chinese Government on 15 May 1996. In general, you may have Chinese nationality if you are a Hong Kong resident of Chinese descent and born in Hong Kong or other parts of China, notwithstanding that you hold, or have held Hong Kong British Dependent Territories Citizen passport, British National (Overseas) passport; or any other foreign passport. 1

Q3 I am a person partly of Chinese blood and holding a PIC. Am I qualified for a HKSAR passport?
A3 Article 4 of the Chinese Nationality Law (CNL) states that any person born in China whose parents are Chinese nationals or one of whose parents is a Chinese national has Chinese nationality.
Article 5 of the CNL states that any person born abroad whose parents are Chinese nationals or one of whose parents is a Chinese national has Chinese nationality. But a person whose parents are Chinese nationals and have settled abroad or one of whose parents is a Chinese national and has settled abroad and who has acquired foreign nationality on birth does not have Chinese nationality. It follows therefore that each case has to be considered separately, taking into account the factors mentioned above


1 ...which is the criteria for right of abode.

[sailor]

in other words and to make it short: I am right, residency and nationality are separate and different. Nationality is tied to descent. See where it says "Chinese blood"? See "Chinese descent"? What do you think that means? Just read the damn thing. A foreign national who has lived in HKG may have the right of abode but not Chinese nationality. I really don't know what is so difficult to understand. All countries distinguish between "residency" and "nationality", including the USA.

Being born in HKG does *not* automatically give you Chinese citizenship.

And I am still waiting for cites of all those European countries which you assert *do* grant citizenship just by being born there. Like Switzerland or France or. . . I want you to show proof this is the norm.

[Tripler]

Originally posted by sailor
And I am still waiting for cites of all those European countries which you assert *do* grant citizenship just by being born there. Like Switzerland or France or. . . I want you to show proof this is the norm.

I can't give you a cite on those that do automatically grant citizenship for just being born there, but you do not automatically lose (http://travel.state.gov/dualnationality.html) your US Citizenship by being born to US Citizens overseas.

Getting back to the OP, I think it depends on what his birth certificate says, and what other paperwork he may have been issued by the Spanish government.

Tripler
Let me do a quick looksee on what Spain says.

[Tripler]

Well, this (http://www.spain-visas.com/Spanish-Citizenship-and-Spanish-Nationality-pag7.htm) may be of some help.

Seems that if you really wanted to press some buttons, give up your US Citizenship (as provided in the link per my previous post), and hire damned good Spanish counsel, you may be able to pull it off.

Just having a Spanish birth certificate would get your foot in the door for litigation, but as I said before, it's just an official record of time/date of birth.

Were you born on the military base proper, or was it in a hospital in Madrid while your folks were on vacation? What other paperwork do you have?

I'm not a lawyer, but there are legalities that play here. . .

Tripler
But, as the French say, "C'est la vie!"

[First Amongst Daves]

Originally posted by sailor
in other words and to make it short: I am right, residency and nationality are separate and different. Nationality is tied to descent. See where it says "Chinese blood"? See "Chinese descent"? What do you think that means? Just read the damn thing. A foreign national who has lived in HKG may have the right of abode but not Chinese nationality. I really don't know what is so difficult to understand. All countries distinguish between "residency" and "nationality", including the USA.

Being born in HKG does *not* automatically give you Chinese citizenship.
[/qb]

My, you're a little firecracker, aren't you? I never said it did. I said "right of abode" (not "being born in HKG") gave you "PRC citizenship".

But this


A foreign national who has lived in HKG may have the right of abode but not Chinese nationality.

while not in the link I provided does ring some bells: I vaguely recall that there are some stateless people of Indian and Vietnamese ethnicity who are applying for right of abode. I do however recall from the South China Morning Post that the Indian girl who was granted right of abode also automatically got PRC citizenship. I have just done a few Google searches, but unfortunately nothing came up.


[qb]
And I am still waiting for cites of all those European countries which you assert *do* grant citizenship just by being born there. Like Switzerland or France or. . . I want you to show proof this is the norm.

Sorry, spud, this isn't Great Debates. I'm making a bare assertion on the basis of my limited exposure to the immigration regimes of those countries. Feel free to disprove it.

[sailor]

Originally posted by Tripler
I can't give you a cite on those that do automatically grant citizenship for just being born there, but you do not automatically lose (http://travel.state.gov/dualnationality.html) your US Citizenship by being born to US Citizens overseas. I am totally baffled by this which appears to me to be a non sequitur. How is this relevant? What am I missing? Seems that if you really wanted to press some buttons, give up your US Citizenship (as provided in the link per my previous post), and hire damned good Spanish counsel, you may be able to pull it off. Can you explain how? because, as far as I can see he does not fall under *any* of the categories. Please explain your reasoning because I do not follow you.

[sailor]

Originally posted by The God of Muesli Bars
Sorry, spud, this isn't Great Debates. I'm making a bare assertion on the basis of my limited exposure to the immigration regimes of those countries. Feel free to disprove it. [/B] In other words, you are making it up. Here's another bare assertion for you: I'm pretty sure you are wrong (again).

[sailor]

By the way, I just noticed in the OP: it is no longer EC but EU , European Union.

[Tripler]

Originally posted by sailor
I am totally baffled by this which appears to me to be a non sequitur. How is this relevant? What am I missing?

It was an attempt to redirect the thread back to the OP.

Can you explain how? because, as far as I can see he does not fall under *any* of the categories. Please explain your reasoning because I do not follow you.

Well of course you don't know what categories he falls under because all we know is that he has a birth certificate. As proved with a $200k lawsuit over McDonald's coffee in a ladies crotch, anything can be done with good litigation.

Oh, but that's a generalization. I'm sure you'll nitnoid that to death too. :rolleyes:

C'mon. Let's help the poor guy out here.

Tripler
Back to the OP. . .

[sailor]

Originally posted by Tripler
It was an attempt to redirect the thread back to the OP. I still don't get it. Can you explain it? You said "you do not automatically lose your US Citizenship by being born to US Citizens overseas". I really must be missing something. How can you "lose" your citizenship by being born overseas? The worst that could happen is that you did not acquire it but it would be impossible to lose it. Did anybody say such thing? It is not a question asked in the OP at all. He has no doubt of his American citizenship. What am I missing? I still don't get it. Well of course you don't know what categories he falls under because all we know is that he has a birth certificate. [quote] We know a bit more than that and we have no reason to believe he falls under any of the categories. Saying you can just go and litigate without any merit is just silly. [quote] As proved with a $200k lawsuit over McDonald's coffee in a ladies crotch, anything can be done with good litigation. I am sure that is plenty relevant to a judge in Spain: "Your honor, I am entitkled to Spanish citizenship because a lady in America got $200K for spilling coffee over her crotch". :rolleyes: Oh, but that's a generalization. I'm sure you'll nitnoid that to death too. :rolleyes: We deal with factual answers here and yours are begging to be nitpicked. Either the OP fulfils the requirements or he doesn't. Saying "get a good lawyer" is not a factual answer and is not much help. Providing the factual information about who is entitled to Spanish citizenship and how is what I did and what I consider the factual answer to the factual question. C'mon. Let's help the poor guy out here. Give me a factual break.

[First Amongst Daves]

Originally posted by sailor
In other words, you are making it up. Here's another bare assertion for you: I'm pretty sure you are wrong (again).

So as well as being obnoxious, you're also calling me a liar. You've yet to provide me with proof positive that I'm wrong on the issue of right of abode creating a right to PRC citizenship. Your hectoring is tiresome.

Still, you raised doubts in my mind, so I checked French citizenship:

http://www.southern-cross-group.org/anothercitizenship/france.html


Children born within the territory of France with at least one French parent are French by birth under French citizenship law. Children born in France to two non-French parents acquire French citizenship when they turn 18 if the following two conditions have been fulfilled:

they must be currently resident in France at the time of application; and

they must have lived at least 5 years (continuously or discontinuously) in France since the age of 11.


So then I checked out Germany:



As of January 1, 2000, a child born in Germany to non-German parents automatically acquires German citizenship at birth by jus soli if: (1) at least one parent had lived legally in Germany for at least eight years prior to the birth; (2) at the time of the birth, that parent had a permanent residence permit (either an Aufenthaltsberichtigung or, for the three years prior to the birth, an unbefristete Aufenhaltserlaubnis). Note that:

a. The child must choose between German nationality and the nationality of his/her parents before he/she turns 23 years of age, unless it is legally impossible for him/her to give up his/her parents' nationality, in which case he/she must apply to the German authorities for dual nationality before turning 21.

b. Special rules apply to children born between February 2, 1990, and December 31, 1999, who have until December 31, 2000, to apply for German citizenship.

c. Those born in Germany to non-German parents before February 2, 1990, have no claim to German citizenship under this law.

d. For more information, please contact your local Staatsangehörigkeitsbehörde or the nearest office of the Ausländerbeirat (Foreigners Advisory Council).


2 from 2. So I checked out Spain, which after all was the OP:

http://www.spain-visas.com/Spanish-Citizenship-and-Spanish-Nationality-pag7.htm

WHO CAN CHOOSE TO BE SPANISH?

People whose relationship or birth in Spain has been determined after the age of 18. The period for this option is of two (2) years beginning from the coming of age.

Some of these are subject to caveats on living abroad, voluntarily acquiring another nationalisty, etc.

I guess, sailor, that means you are wrong, on both Spain and Germany. Perhaps you were the one making it up...?

[Tusculan]

It is true that Germany has recently (as was pointed out) modified its nationality law. However, I should also point out that I've heard that many EU countries have tightened their requirements, which can already be gleaned from the quotes in this thread.

It is hardly ever the case that the mere fact of being born in the country makes you a national citizen, or even gives you the option of becoming a citizen. There are mostly additional requirements, such as
- residence for a number of years,
- legal residence (as opposed to being in the country illegally).

Furthermore, as the last quote shows, there often is a limited time window in which you can apply.

Getting back to the OP, this means that it is not prima facie clear whether he can apply for Spanish citizenship. Given the paucity of facts he supplied there is no way to ascertain that properly.

[sailor]

Originally posted by The God of Muesli Bars
I guess, sailor, that means you are wrong, on both Spain and Germany. Perhaps you were the one making it up...? No, every single cite proves I was right and not one of those countries grants citizenship by the mere act of being born on their soil. Not a single one. And everybody else in this thread understands that except you. I am tired of this ridiculous exchange. If you want to continue we can do it in the pit where I can explain things to you more clearly. Just let me know if you are interested in my offer.

[clairobscur]

Originally posted by The God of Muesli Bars
You have picked the two EU countries I don't know about (plus Portugal). All the rest of the EU countries, plus Norway, to the best of my knowledge allow citizenship to people born in their borders.





Not France. At least not anymore, since the immigration and citizenship laws have been stiffened a dozen years ago. AFAIK, if you were born in France you must also now have lived here for a given number of years (I can't remember how many) and request the french citizenship (and you can only do so for some years after your 18th birthday) instead of it being granted automatically.

Supposedly that has been enacted in order to limit the number of mothers who used to enter France ilegally or legally and give birth to their child on french soil, so that the child would have the french citizenship and the parents a recidency permit.

[clairobscur]

OK. Once again I should have read the whole thread, since another poster had already given a more comprehensive answer concerning France.

[First Amongst Daves]

Originally posted by sailor
No, every single cite proves I was right and not one of those countries grants citizenship by the mere act of being born on their soil. Not a single one. And everybody else in this thread understands that except you. I am tired of this ridiculous exchange. If you want to continue we can do it in the pit where I can explain things to you more clearly. Just let me know if you are interested in my offer.

Go for it, kid.

[wooba]

Originally posted by sailor
I have picked the only country relevant to the OP and another one at random. You say the majority of countries in Europe and the world grant citizenship by birth on their soil? I doubt it. Please show me evidence that Switzerland grants it because I do not believe it does. The UK? I did some digging to support my assertion, do I have to do it all? Will you please show some support for your assertion? Let's see Switzerland, the UK, France and a couple more countries of your choosing. In the meanwhile I believe the general rule is that countries consider newborns to be of the citizenship of their parents.

Just wanted to point out that Switzerland is not a member of the EU.

[ruadh]

Anyone born in Ireland - north or south - can claim Irish citizenship (cite (http://www.justice.ie/802569B20047F907/vWeb/wpMJDE5E4FVG)). It's a controversial policy and its opponents frequently claim that it is unique in western Europe. I'm not about to go looking up all the other countries' laws, but I've never seen that claim challenged.

[sailor]

Originally posted by wooba
Just wanted to point out that Switzerland is not a member of the EU. I never said it was but while we're pointing out the obvious I'll point out that Mexico isn't a member of the EU either.. . . Who's next?

[wooba]

Originally posted by sailor
I never said it was but while we're pointing out the obvious I'll point out that Mexico isn't a member of the EU either.. . . Who's next?

The person that you were disputing specifically said EU. You asked for evidence about Switzerland even though they never claimed any knowledge about countries outside of the EU, except for Norway.

[sailor]

Originally posted by wooba
The person that you were disputing specifically said EU. You asked for evidence about Switzerland even though they never claimed any knowledge about countries outside of the EU, except for Norway. No, we were talking about the entire whole wide world: Originally posted by sailor:
Most countries do not grant citizenship to those born there from foreign parents. The USA is an exception to the rule. Originally posted by The God of Muesli Bars

With most European countries, I understood being born there gets you citizenship, as does Australia and New Zealand.

In Hong Kong, if you are Chinese ethnicity, being born there can get you right of abode (equivalent of citizenship).

Japan and most Arab countries follow paternity (there are 3rd generation people of Korean heritage born in Japan who cannot get Japanese citizenship). With African and South American countries, I have no idea. So it turns out we were talking about the world and not about any specific country or about the EU. He said with "most European countries" which I would say includes Switzerland. He was wrong. And so are you. Just read the thread.

[wooba]

Whatever.. I know what I read and have read again.. no point filling up the thread with nonsense..

I was clearly just trying to be helpful, there is no need to be snarky..