Iran earthquake (no idea where this may go)

[duffer]

Disclaimer : I lost both my parents, and grandparents, and my brother when he was 2. I understand how painful it is to lose loved ones.

I guess I can only do this step-by-step. So here goes.

I can't cite the countries, but there are many offering help. One of these countries is "The Great Satan". I guess 1979 doesn't matter when the Ayatollah's need help.

(Stay with me on this, I don't hate Iranians)

That said, Isreal offered help (financial and manpower) to Iran. President Khatami said Iran wouldn't accept any help from Jews. Think of that, Iran's gov't has sworn the names of Jewish mothers for decades, yet the Isrealies are offering free help.

This is getting into a rant, I OP'd here thinking it would end up here anyway, so I might as well go off.

To continue, I need to remind Iran they have a SHITLOAD of oil, but you need nuclear power for electricity? I call bullshit. (OK that was off-topic, but I stand by it)

I'm an American, and Goddamn proud of it. Do I lord it over others? Of course not, I'm not in position to. I understand why some countries hate us. Based on what we are and what we stand for, many people still look to us for hope. But, like Iraqis, Iranians, North Koreans, Afghani's et. al. some people are just taught from birth to hate the US. I can accept that. I have a cable modem and can understand how info and change should happen RIGHT NOW!!

I want to use the term "benevolent" for America. But that won't fly on this board. The point I wanted to state in that assertion, was that America will bail you out. It's too easy to bring up France. So I'll mention the current crisis. "The Great Satan" is sending millions of dollars (that Howard Dean says we can't afford) and many, many people to rebuild.

Use the fucking oil to build something that won't crumble when a fly farts!

*Off to take my meds*

[Boo Boo Foo]

Originally posted by duffer
Use the fucking oil to build something that won't crumble when a fly farts!

*Off to take my meds* That truly was in poor taste. Honestly.

[Desmostylus]

Bit more Valium next time. Or maybe a bit less. Hard to tell.

[friedo]

You're right that the countries offering aid to Iran are good, despite the fact that Iran's government are a bunch of fucking barbarians.

You're right that refusing aid from Israel was a phenominally assholish thing to do.

But the rest of it just reads like the nonsensical rambling of a drunken subway hobo, so I will withhold judgment until either you or I sober up.

[Lola]

A truly offensive posting. Between 20000 and 50000 people die and you want to take the opportunity to score a few points? Jesus.

[gluteus maximus]

Originally posted by duffer

Use the fucking oil to build something that won't crumble when a fly farts!

While you may very well be familiar with the power of a fly's fart, you obviously have never experienced a strong earthquake.


Considering that the death toll estimates are currently hovering around 28,000 (!:eek:!), duffer, your opening disclaimer, and the rest of your OP, is incredibly lame, and heartless.


As far as help goes, why should the Iranians accept second-hand aid from Israel, when they already have the offer of direct aid from the U.S.?

[duffer]

Yes Friedo, it was rambling rhetoric. I trust you knew (even unimplied) that it was a rant. If that wasn't clear, it's my fault,

Lola, that post was offensive? 2 things to remember, 1. This is the PIT! This is where you go to rant about these things. (Unless I'm wrong, can we a get a mod ruling?)

2. I think I was pretty clear that I wasn't pitting people. Only a government.

If anyone took my Op as a flame, it wasn't supposed to be that.

But this gets me to a new thought. When did we get so thin-skinned that we take offence to an idiot with an internet connection?

[Desmostylus]

You're new here, duffer, and I guess you were trying to attract some attention.

You've attracted it.

A word to the wise: Don't try to attract more at this stage. Things might not go so well.

[clayton_e]

Originally posted by duffer
When did we get so thin-skinned that we take offence to an idiot with an internet connection?

Right about when some asshole with a telephone tried to sell me something. Doesn't matter how the idiots talk, they always do.

Don't expect to say something... anything.. like what you posted above and not have people be unhappy.

[Crusoe]

As far as I can tell, the OP was a poorly disguised crowing attempt ("Ha! They hate us, but we still bail 'em out!"). The line about buildings crumbling was also fairly unnecessary.

[duffer]

Gluteus, yeah the bug fart was uncalled for. I was just using hyperbole. I was trusting Dopers would see that. Like I said, as most Dopers have, I lost very close relatives. I understand the pain of losing a loved one. If I forgot to do it, I meant to say I sympathize with the Iranians killed.

Since 1972, over 70,000 in Iran have died because of earthquakes. My OP was was only to slam the government, NOT as I said the Iranian people. And Christ Almighty, if Isreal wants to come in and help them out, and they refuse to let Jews into the country, where is the outrage from Dopers over the leaders not allowing help?

OK, they hate Jews. I get it. I was trying to find out why Dopers (still the smartest damn people on Earth) don't see the irony of a government, facing tens of thousands of corpses, refusing help from Isreal, but gladly accepting help from "The Great Satan".

Look, I may be wrong. This argument, as well as the OP is 99% opinion. There's a reason I started it in the Pit. I just have a problem with the Iranian administration refusing help for thier families.

[duffer]

OK, I'm wrong. One question though (maybe this should be in GQ) how many posts and how many months does it take to avoid the "you're new" responses? That is a fair question. And I will follow the rule.

[gluteus maximus]

Originally posted by duffer
If I forgot to do it, I meant to say I sympathize with the Iranians killed.

Since 1972, over 70,000 in Iran have died because of earthquakes. My OP was was only to slam the government, NOT as I said the Iranian people.

Yes, you "forgot" to say that you sympathize with any Iranians, living or dead. You merely stated that you don't hate them.

As far as I know (sorry, no cite), no nation's government has yet succeeded in preventing earthquakes.

I hadn't noticed, but did you also pit Governor Arnold for the quake in California?

[Crusoe]

I wouldn't worry about the 'you're new' responses. They'll go as soon as you get to know people or prove you know your stuff (depending on which boards you frequent most). Welcome aboard.

[gluteus maximus]

Originally posted by duffer
OK, I'm wrong. One question though (maybe this should be in GQ) how many posts and how many months does it take to avoid the "you're new" responses? That is a fair question. And I will follow the rule.

"You're new." means you've been cut some slack, not that attracting attention in this way will be tolerated more after you've posted a certain number of times.

[duffer]

See how fast an OP can be twisted? I never said Khatami (or any leader) could ever stop an earthquake. But he CAN prevent free help from a country he doesn't like. Whoops, Iran hates America, yet they're taking US cash. I'm not going to bother typing this out again if you don't see where I was going, Isreal offered help and Iran refused the help because they are Jews. Melt it all down, and that was the crux of my OP. I just don't know how to describe this better.

I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm just pissed that the Iranian government is REFUSING help because they're racist.

[Quartz]

Actually, building a nuclear power station is a good idea. That oil isn't going to last for ever. Using the power station to produce materiel for a weapons program is not a good idea.

[gluteus maximus]

Originally posted by duffer


I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm just pissed that the Iranian government is REFUSING help because they're racist.

Actually, they're not refusing Israeli aid because they are racist, but because they are enemies. Saying the Iranians are racist against the Israelis is like saying the Irish are racist against the British.

Here's a tip: Next time, try to keep your pit rant to one topic instead of all that "hyperbolic" rambling you did in the OP. Then, you won't have to spend so much time explaining and leading us all to your true point.

Also, next time, try picking on someone who isn't suffering.

[Lola]

Originally posted by duffer


Lola, that post was offensive? 2 things to remember, 1. This is the PIT! This is where you go to rant about these things. (Unless I'm wrong, can we a get a mod ruling?)



Yes, you patronising gobshite, it was offensive, as you must be realising by now.

[monstro]

Well, remember when Guiliani turned down that check from that Prince Alwaleed bin Talal guy from Saudi Arabia after 9/11?There's no such thing as a "string-free" offer of assistance when it comes to international affairs. I'm not saying anti-semitism or assholishness isn't driving Khatami's refusal, but it's not fair to call him an asshole simply for refusing aid...even though the people dying under rubble probably don't care where the assistance comes from.

[Rune]

Offensive? Not really Lola. A bit rambling and confused. The bit about fly farts was pretty stupid if he meant the historic citadel four times older that the United States. Good reply monstro. Of course it can be said that the two situations differ in that while the US didn’t really need any help from anybody, Iran probably need all the help it can lay their hands on. Beggars and choosers and all that. Also Duffer keeps talking about Jews, while everybody talks about Israelis. If Duffer can provide a link that has Khatami mentioning Jews in his refusal, it would indeed be racist or anti-semitic or whatever.

- Rune

[friedo]

Originally posted by gluteus maximus
Actually, they're not refusing Israeli aid because they are racist, but because they are enemies. Saying the Iranians are racist against the Israelis is like saying the Irish are racist against the British.


The US and Iran are enemies also. We protected the government that Khomeni overthrew, our head of state declared them part of the "axis of evil," and we don't even have diplomatic relations with them. Yet they're happy to accept all sorts of help from us, including rescue workers. I think Mr. maximus's accusation of racism is perfectly valid.

[litost]

Originally posted by monstro Well, remember when Guiliani turned down that check from that Prince Alwaleed bin Talal guy from Saudi Arabia after 9/11?

Excellent point.

[World Eater]

Well they do need to improve their building codes.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=585&e=1&u=/nm/20031230/sc_nm/quake_iran_building_dc

[The Long Road]

Originally posted by monstro
Well, remember when Guiliani turned down that check from that Prince Alwaleed bin Talal guy from Saudi Arabia after 9/11?There's no such thing as a "string-free" offer of assistance when it comes to international affairs. I'm not saying anti-semitism or assholishness isn't driving Khatami's refusal, but it's not fair to call him an asshole simply for refusing aid...even though the people dying under rubble probably don't care where the assistance comes from.

These two things are not really good for a comparison. Giuliani turned down the check when it was implied that the US' policies had caused 9/11 (http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/columnists/wickham/2001-10-26-wickham.htm). This boiled down to "We are sorry this happened to you but it's your own fault". Some people believe that and some people don't and Giuliana didn't. Side note: When McKinney tried to get the check I cringed. I always wait to see what the next low point in politics will be and that one set the bar.

Iran is turning down Isreal's aid because it comes from Israel and no other reason(If that's wrong and there is another reason, please inform me). While the political reasoning is understandable, I'm curious to know what the people in the effected regions think about this. Would their response be, "We need the help. Why turn down Israel help?" or would it be "Good, we don't need Israel's aid".

[gluteus maximus]

Originally posted by friedo
The US and Iran are enemies also. We protected the government that Khomeni overthrew, our head of state declared them part of the "axis of evil," and we don't even have diplomatic relations with them. Yet they're happy to accept all sorts of help from us, including rescue workers. I think Mr. maximus's accusation of racism is perfectly valid.

I think you're a bit confused here, friedo .

duffer said "they're racist".

I said "they're enemies".

[TheLoadedDog]

I agree 100% with the OP. Welcome aboard, mate.

[TheLoadedDog]

Originally posted by Lola
Yes, you patronising gobshite, it was offensive, as you must be realising by now.
(bolding mine)

HOW FUCKING DARE YOU assume you know what others are thinking, you holier-than-thou arsehole. People are still under the rubble, and a racist, bigoted regime has REFUSED HELP from a nearby and capable nation because they are Jews? If only one extra person dies because of this fact, it is a great tragedy, and a victory for ignorance and bigotry. You defend this?

[duffer]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/
http://www.la.utexas.edu/chenry/aip/press99/101799iran-jews.htmlhi/world/middle_east/711917.stm
http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?intarticleid=13621&intcategoryid=1

I thought I said I wasn't slamming Iranians. My furor is against governments that refuse help based on racism. If Isreal were a Christian or Islamic country, would the aid be refused? Unless I missed a headline, Isreal is a Jewish country. Thereby that makes any refusal of Isreali help racist.

Allow me to make an analogy. Let's pretend I'm a neo-Nazi skinhead that loves to beat up "different" people. I really screw up a Satan worshipping session and the candles get out of control. The Jewish family that lives next door (RL) offers my wife and I a place to stay till we get back on our feet, and I refuse because they're Jews. Am I a racist? You know damn well I'd be creamed on this board.

I can't stress enough that I feel and sympathize for the dead and, more so, for the survivors, I know what it feels like. But with German blood in me, I know how you can sympathize with an enemy. The Iranian guy heading out every day to the shop to fix a car probably doesn't give a shit what I'm doing at home. And obviously doesn't know I exist. (I can cite that by the fact he's never sent a birthday card.)

The OP was supposed to be a rant about governments turning a blind eye to the safety of citizens based on ideology. I hope that cleared it up.

(BTW, I should have declared that I love that part of the world, Iraq included, it's just the political/gov't in place that has made it life-threatening for me to take my family to.)

[gluteus maximus]

Originally posted by duffer

Allow me to make an analogy. Let's pretend I'm a neo-Nazi skinhead that loves to beat up "different" people. I really screw up a Satan worshipping session and the candles get out of control. The Jewish family that lives next door (RL) offers my wife and I a place to stay till we get back on our feet, and I refuse because they're Jews. Am I a racist? You know damn well I'd be creamed on this board.


Huh?

That's a pretty weak, and strange, analogy. Are you somehow equating Iranians with Neo-Nazis?

Neo-Nazis are by definition, racist, but since when are Neo-Nazis also Satanists? What self-respecting Neo-Nazi would live next door to a Jewish family? Why on earth would the Jewish family next door open their house to Neo-Nazis?

If you were a Neo-Nazi, you'd be creamed on this board well before you turned down any offer of charity from a Jewish family.

[duffer]

Oh, Gluteus, you completley missed my point. Please (PLEASE) show me where I equated Iranians to Jews. Look up the definition of 'analogy' and go from there. I had an attitude of starting this response in a very good mood, just hoping to point you to see that I'm not getting to personal stuff. But, now I'm getting pissed. And I refuse to get into a "keyboard-pissing-match" with you.

please re-read the earlier post. I agree with you on too many posts to want to make you an enemy. Just please re-read everything to know what the post is supposed to be about

[gluteus maximus]

Originally posted by gluteus maximus
Are you somehow equating Iranians with Neo-Nazis?
Originally posted by duffer
Please (PLEASE) show me where I equated Iranians to Jews.

I never said you did, OK?

I don't need to read your post again, but perhaps you need to read mine.


I didn't miss your point, I'm disagreeing with it. I don't agree that Iran's refusal of Israeli aid constitutes racism. Folly, perhaps. Since they've accepted U.S. aid, and since the U.S. has quite a large concentration of personnel, equipment, and supplies in the vicinity at the moment, Iran probably doesn't need Israeli aid, and can therefore afford to make a political statement by refusing it. The Israeli aid offer was a political statement, and Iran answered it.

I'm not interested in a pissing contest, either. Since I already understand the definition of the word, I questioned your analogy. You went from "Iranians are racist towards Israelis", to "Neo-Nazis Satanists are racist towards Jews"... since you have insisted that "Israel = Jews", your analogy would seem to suggest that "Iranians = Neo-Nazi Satanists", because the constant in your analogy was Israeli/Jews. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt by calling your analogy weak, and by sincerely asking if the what seemed to be your implied meaning was correct.

Once again, I understand your point, but I disagree. So, I guess I'll leave it at that.

[duffer]

ok, I see where I went wrong, the neo_nazi thing was the analogy of my family to my neighbors. this is how I get into so much trouble here. It didn't have anything to do with the earthquake. I was trying to compare my family refusing shelter based on the religious beleifs of a family trying to help us. The Satanist thing was hyperbole, trying to make a point, I never compared to Iranians as Satanists. Like I said, I have no problem with Iranians, just the government/Ayatollahs.

Should my town get hit with such a disaster, I'll be thanking any country that even offers help. I knew this would be taken wrong. To expound, I saw that a mother was found dead holding an infant that lived. I cried. I lost a brother when he was 2 and took that as a gunuine miracle. Life is so random, I just do see how help is turned away so carelessly.\

I'd apologize, but it's just too emotionally charged for me. Maybe that's the problem.

[sailor]

Israel
I S R A E L

[Rune]

Huh? Are you chanting Sailor? Praying perhaps … or cursing?

Even such a horrible disaster as this earthquake can be used for some good. The Iranians could have embraced the Israeli help (offered without any overt strings as far as I know) and used the opportunity to mend past differences, an opening for peaceful relations. As was the case when earthquake hit Turkey and Greece, which was followed up by a flurry of earthquake diplomacy and a lasting improved relations. Instead the Iranians, or the pathetic Iranian government, chose to bite the helping hand, and nurse old grievances like a three year old child screaming for his pacifier. An old man clinging to his cane. Pathetic.

One can hope the Iranians will use the opportunity to deal with their government, much the same way Chernobyl was something of a catalyst for the following Soviet collapse.

Also, given international help is a zero sum game – help given to one country is help not given to another country. One is forced to wonder if the Iranians really is in need of help, or the help could not be spend better elsewhere, when they apparently think they’re in a position to pick and choose from whom they’ll accept assistance.

- Rune