Atheists: how to deal w/ religious family members?

[wonder9]

(To mods: please move this post to the appropriate board if I have posted in the wrong place. I'm still pretty new here)

My sister and I have taken two widely diverging paths through life. I am an atheist and she, at this late date in her life, decided to ditch a legal practice and become an ordained Episcopal (sp?) priest. Fair enough. However, since her mid-life conversion to religion she has become quite aggressive in her outward displays of faith and insists on others either doing the same or listening in silence. For instance:

---When my husband and I celebrated our 20th anniversary with a big family party, she was quite put out when I said I would only allow her to pray over us if we could strangle a sacrificial chicken first (one ceremony makes about the same amount of sense as the other to me).

---When my father was dying of brain cancer she insisted that he get last rites from a priest with no justification that my comatose dad had ever expressed any interest in that ceremony at all.

---My dad had not been a religious man, neither is my still living mom, but my sister hijacked the funeral plans, insisted it take place at her church with her in the preacher role and her sons as alter boys. Other family members wishes were not included.

---And on Christmas Day, at a big family dinner, she stood up and in a loud, piercing voice, proceeded to say grace, leaving all of the rest of us in the position of either saying it with her or remaining silent while our philosophy of life was ignored and disrespected.

The question I have is...how do I deal with the aggressive nature of her religiosity, or do I have to just suck it up? And why is it always the non-religious who have to do so, anyway?

[Kinthalis]

You have to MAKE her understand your position.

I suggest you first try to reason with her. Explain your own beliefs and ask that when she is with you/other family members she respect you/their own traditions (or lack thereof).

Likewise, you'll have to learn to compromise, there's no other way around that if you want her to remain a part of your life. If she wants to say grace, then allow her to do so. You needn't say it with her, a moment of quiet can give you a chance to reflect on the day, think about your wife in that sexy outfit you got her for xmas, the new game you bought yourself and your itchin to play, etc.

Find a middle ground where she doesn't feel attacked for her beliefs, and you are not being force fed religion every 5 minutes.

It's all about compromise ;)

[wonder9]

Originally posted by Kinthalis
think about your wife in that sexy outfit you got her for xmas,

Ummm...I was with you up to the sexy wife part. I was sorta hoping I WAS the sexy wife in this marriage. Gee, my husband's going to be disappointed...

Anyway, thanks for the advice. Compromise was what I had been aiming at earlier but in the last six months it's been all one sided and I think I'm just tired of it being one-way only.

[Earthworm Jim]

Quote Matthew 6 and 7. It won't convince her, but it's damned annoying.

[Shepherdless]

This isn't so much an issue with someone who is just religious; it's an issue with someone who is overzealous and dictatorial. Did she act similarly before she was ordained a priest?

I would certainly let your sister know that it's inappropriate to impose her views. But don't do it alone; make sure you have other family members on your side. I wouldn't lauch a religious debate, which can be endless and create more animosity. All she needs to understand is that her religious beliefs are not shared, and that you'll respect her choice if she'll consider for a moment that it is reasonable for others to have other beliefs.

Of course, you should show the same respect, and avoid comments like the one about the sacrificial chicken.

[gum]

What the heck? I like your comment about the sacrificial chicken.

She's the one who imposes, right? Put her in the hall and let her say her prayers to the mailbox.

Good luck.

[cher3]

I think your approach to your anniversary was witty and reasonable. Not sure what to say about your father's funeral, etc., except that, in the future, those who don't want Christian ceremonies are probably going to have to be a bit more emphatic about what they do want. As an atheist, I personally don't care what my family does with or over me after I die, as long as it doesn't cost a lot of money.

If you are going to have family celebrations on major Christian holidays, though, letting your sister say a short prayer while you contemplate the silverware is not a big concession. (And, yes, I know all about the pagan aspects of Christmas. I'm assuming you are not a pagan either.)

[Kinthalis]

Originally posted by wonder9
Ummm...I was with you up to the sexy wife part. I was sorta hoping I WAS the sexy wife in this marriage. Gee, my husband's going to be disappointed...

Anyway, thanks for the advice. Compromise was what I had been aiming at earlier but in the last six months it's been all one sided and I think I'm just tired of it being one-way only.

Hehehe, sorry about that ;) So think of him lying in a tub of chocolate with sprinkles on top and some whipped cr.... what?

As someone else pointed out, make sure you have the backing of other family members and don't go down the slippery slope of religous debates. That's just not going to be productive.

I know I dealt with this a lot when I was younger with my mother's die of the family, and then later with my father's side. And in both cases I did what I had to do. I compromised.

I also made sure they understood my position in all matters of faith, and that I wouldn't back down and "just go along with it".

[DrMatrix]

General Questions is for questions with factual answers. IMHO is our forum for opinions and polls. I'll move this to IMHO for you.

DrMatrix - GQ Moderator

[don't ask]

Look at the OP.
Think about strangled chickens.
With cut throats.
And blood everywhere.
Which you paint on peoples faces while muttering gibberish.

First time you pull that shit at a wedding or a funeral she'll get the hint.

[yellowcakesolid]

1. Don’t debate her. If she feels it is her mission to save you, all attempts to fight her will simply encourage her. Consider yourself a trophy. The more you protest--the more you need to be saved--the bigger the trophy you become.

2. Define your house rules (like no saying grace or praying out loud) and kick her out of the house if they are broken. If she can’t handle your house rules, she doesn’t get invited into the house. Within the confines of your own home, you must stick up for your beliefs and the beliefs of your husband of 20 years.

3. If this is new to her, give her some time. I’ve noticed that people are very gung-ho when they make a major life change, like quitting smoking, dieting, etc. It wears off.

4. Everyone tends to "suck it up" when they disagree with the speaker. We agree when talking to the person and then disagree by talking behind his back.

[mailman]

Compromise? No.

The problem is that there can never be a true compromise in this situation. Someone is always going to feel like they have lost the contest if they have to, for example, endure sitting through a prayer, or endure feeling the void of the lack of a prayer.

1. Prayers being offered, means your sister is happy, and you are not.

2. Prayers not being offered means you are happy and she is not.

Where's the compromise?

How can anyone be happy?

I think the dialogue that needs to take place here is: "This is the way we do things in my house. In your house, we do things your way."

As for family events such as a funeral, the whole family needs to express an opinion and agree to honor it--a difficult and unlikely scenario, when your family is probably scattered all over the beliefs continuum.

Athiests have to bite their lip every time they turn around in this world, with continual references to god, satan, angels, heaven, divine intervention, hell, eternity, and all the rest. As an athiest, you know this is true. I think you need to tell your sister to shut up already about her beliefs when she is infringing on your beliefs. She is perfectly willing to shove it down your throat as long as you are a willing partner. Don't just sit there and take it.

Don't compromise. She doesn't.

[Cyrokk]

yellowcakesolid provides some excellent advice.

In many cases, being up front with an overbearing Christian about your conflicting religious beliefs will reduce you to a needy ignorant putz who must at all costs be saved from your stupidity. People from her congregation may call you and come to your door (some even bring baked goods), you might be put on a "need-to-be-saved" mailing list, and every birthday or xmas gift will be some sort of self help literature designed to correct your convictions, all because she "loves you and wants to save you from the depths of hell".

[photopat]

Well, actually mailman, the dialogue you suggest sounds like a compromise to me. The only reasonable one too.

Wonder9, in your own house or generally at events you are running you have the right to decide if there will be prayer or not. Likewise for your sister. If she tries to force the issue she's being unreasonable and (I think you should point this out to her) not very charitable or respectful, which are characteristics that a lot of christians believe they have.

Keep in mind that since she's made such a dramatic change suddenly, she's probably going a little over the top as rookies often do. Maybe in time she'll relax a little and not force the religion so much.

[photopat]

Originally posted by photopat
Well, actually [b]mailmanIf she tries to force the issue she's being unreasonable and (I think you should point this out to her) not very charitable or respectful, which are characteristics that a lot of christians believe they have.

I'm not suggesting that christians aren't charitable or respectful. I think most, if not all, are. But some sure as nonexistence aren't.

[Podkayne]

I would say that you need to set boundaries and be clear and firm with her about what you will put up with and what you won't. I'm lucky, in that my family is very respectful of my beliefs, but I think part of that comes from the fact that I try to be considerate of theirs. I've also had a much easier time with my family since I made clear statements about what I'm willing or unwilling to do, rather than sort of feeling our way along, which often lead to someone being put in an awkward spot.

Since we've learned to talk about it, they now ask me in advance whether I'll be cool with this or that, and we can work things out, calmly and privately. Everything is kept on the level of how we feel about this or that, whether we're comfortable with whatever compromise. Theological debates have been resoundly unsatisfying to all parties, so we avoid them.

For example, I will attend worship services as long as I don't have to participate. This is cool with my Grandma, so I go to church with her sometimes when she needs a ride. It's boring as hell, but Grandma appreciates us spending time together. (Time when we don't look at each other or talk to each other, but . . . *sigh* It makes Gramma happy.) My refusal to participate is not cool with my mom, who feels self-conscious about me staying behind the pew while everyone else goes to the Communion rail, so I don't go to church with Mom.

So I recommend that you pick your standards based on your own comfort level, and let them be known to your sister. Be aware that you will have to compromise, also. For example, if you're a guest, it's for your host, not you, to dictate whether she says grace at a family dinner. And tolerance is a two-way street. If she's really pushing something, ask yourself if it would really be compromising your beliefs to let her do it.

As far as saying grace goes, what about if you talk to her about it, and make it clear that you don't want to pray with her, but you are willing to let her pray. You take the sting out of it, then--she's not "disrespecting" you if you have given her permission, right? I admit that this is somewhat tortured reasoning, but I have a hard time understanding how simplying having someone pray in your presence is an insult; it's insulting for them to pressure you to participate (overtly or subtly), or for them to pray about you, or for them to pray when they are a guest in your house and you have asked them not to. But if you invite her to lead the prayer for those who want to participate, then would you be okay with just sitting quietly for a few minutes what she does it? I mean, if the answer, for you, is no, then that's what your comfort zone is, and as others have said, you should just say firmly that you don't want her praying when she is your guest.

The number one consideration should be that you love your sister and she loves you, and if you respect one another, you can work out a means of getting along. She's pushing the envelope of what's acceptable in her zeal, and you have to push back to let her know that your feelings are being trodden upon, but at the same time, I hope you will still let her have some space to express her beliefs in. It's an important part of her life, and it's not fair to try to shut that aspect of her personality out of your life entirely.

[wonder9]

You all have made some excellent points.
Beelzebubba: You're sweet. I think I love you. But did I mention that she used to be a lawyer? Much as I'd like to annoy the hell out of her---on purpose for a change---she's probably up for that one.

gum: Thanks for the support about the sacrificial chicken. The look on her face was priceless. And I think the mailbox would be a great and private place for prayers.

cher3: outstanding point about having to put up with religiosity on major christian holidays. I hadn't thought of it that way before. And nope, I'm not a pagan although boy that sure sounds like a whole lot more fun than christianity AND atheism. Dancing naked, free sex, drug induced frenzy...except for that whole believing thing, sounds good to me.

don't ask: if I wasn't already committed to Beelzebubba and gum, you'd definitely be on my list of future dates. I may just try that at her son's high school graduation.

to you other fine folks: I appreciate the viewpoints and will redouble my efforts to be understanding (gak!), willing to compromise (*sigh*) and yet stay protected from any ill advised attempts to save my poor wretched soul.

[Yllaria]

>>Dancing naked, free sex, drug induced frenzy...except for that whole believing thing, sounds good to me.

Paganism isn't a monolithic thing, so you can find just about anything if you look for it. But I got involved because belief was not a requirement. (There was also no naked dancing, free sex, or drug induced frenzy, at least not at the rituals, but like I said, groups vary.)

Has your sister by any chance always been determined to get her own way and be the one in charge? If there's been a big personality change I'd almost wonder if there was a medical reason.

[wonder9]

Has your sister by any chance always been determined to get her own way and be the one in charge? If there's been a big personality change I'd almost wonder if there was a medical reason.

Others have asked somewhat the same question. The answer...she made an OUTSTANDING lawyer for all of the reasons you might expect. She is determined, dogmatic, aggressive, arrogant, intelligent, and self-centered. The law lost a great one when she decided she wanted to preach.

BTW, preaching, not ministering, is what she likes to do. She tried to get out of a hospital rotation during her seminary degree program because she said she didn't like dealing with sick people; they made her feel bad. Boy, that's the kind of priest you want with you as you face the final curtain.

[iampunha]

wonder9, have you considered duct-taping her mouth shut? Wrapping it around and around her head (particularly if it touches her hair) would make it more difficult for her to remove it. Just remember not to cover her nose or you could be nailed in a wrongful death suit.

[Shakes]

I'm an athiest but I could never understand why other athiest get soo offended when somebody wants to say grace.

I mean whats the big f'n deal? especialy if its a family member and its so obviously important to them.

[StarvingButStrong]

Print out Matthew 6:6-7* on an index card, and post it prominently whenever your sister will be present in your house. Then when she sets in praying, go all concerned that she is doing it wrong, and won't get her deserved reward.....then shove her into the nearest closet and lock it. ;)



*King James version:

6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

[HPL]

Originally posted by wonder9
And nope, I'm not a pagan although boy that sure sounds like a whole lot more fun than christianity AND atheism. Dancing naked, free sex, drug induced frenzy...except for that whole believing thing, sounds good to me.


It sounds like you are looking for Hedonism.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by wonder9
Others have asked somewhat the same question. The answer...she made an OUTSTANDING lawyer for all of the reasons you might expect. She is determined, dogmatic, aggressive, arrogant, intelligent, and self-centered. The law lost a great one when she decided she wanted to preach.

The way to make a lawyer shut up is to sic a judge on her :D

Whenever your sister starts talking about God etc., just tell her that you prefer not to talk about this, firmly and politely.

[Yllaria]

The verses that Beelzebubba and StarvingButStrong provided would look good in needlepoint, I think. Not that she'd get the hint. You might mention that you have enough respect for religion to be upset when you see her using it as a bat to beat people up with.

[hypnoboth]

As a Christian, I like the "your house - your rules, her house - her rules" solution. It is a universal rule of civilized behavior. Make the rules clear when she enters your house. In someone else's house (your mother's, whatever) get the house rules clear, and don't complain when she (or you) follow them.

[Metacom]

I'm kind of curious why you think what she's doing is so offensive. I'm an athiest; my dad is a hardcore bible-banging evangelical fundie. I don't feel that my beliefs are being denigrated when he says grace, even when he throws prayers in my direction. I don't even have a problem going to church with him once or twice a year on special occaisons (it's kind of fun to stand silent while everyone else is singing, gesturing, and falling prostrate before the Lord, in an armchair-anthropologist kinda way).

Your sister's (and my dad's) actions in all of these cases were guided by what they truly believed was best for you and your family--she wants your dad and the rest of the family to be with her in heaven, so she's acting accordingly. It's actually somewhat sweet, when you think about it.

If you truly don't believe in god (and I don't), then what harm is she doing? Is smiling and nodding as she says a prayer that you think will ultimately be inefectual so damaging to you that it's worth challenging her beliefs and robbing her of some peace of mind?

[FriarTed]

her dominating things is wrong (your anniversary celebration is your domain, not hers; your dad's funeral & the family C'mas celebration was the whole family's, not exclusively hers)- her participating & tossing in her faith is understandable (she was within full rights to get last rites for your dad- if it makes her feel better, why not? how does it hurt anyone else? what is so wrong about saying A prayer at a CHRISTmas celebration? Tho the funeral situation should have included her maybe saying a prayer or reading a Scripture or giving a homage to your Dad, but not her conducting full Funeral mass AS the service. She could have done that as a seperate service.)

[merrily]

I'm with Metacom and Shakes, if other people want to be religious, that is their privilege. Actually, I think it is kind of touching, mostly. It isn't a contest and I don't have to bite my lips, just show some basic human respect to minor manifestations.

I don't much like being evangelized, so I'm careful not to do it to believers.

A grace before a meal is not a lot to put up with.

Realize that the problem isn't what she is doing (none of which sounds like a major imposition) so much as some sibling thing you have going--you seem to feel she is trying to one-up you or something. If she is your zany leaps-in-with-both-feet sister, then she is, and love her because she is your sister. She is never going to stop being zany.

What you can work on is having a stronger sense of self, and seeing that what she believes is not impinging on who you are unless you, yourself, want it to.

[Thudlow Boink]

Would it be worth it to go to her superior(s) in the church (bishop or somebody—I'm not sure how the Episcopal church's hierarchy works) and ask that they gently admonish her not to be so pushy with her religion?

[suezeekay]

I'm not an aetheist but I'm not into organized religion either. I just have my own beliefs and basically what other people believe is okay with me. We had a Christian funeral for my dad and it didn't make any difference to me because I don't think human rituals have any spiritual relevance. I understand why you are annoyed with your sister because she wants to convert you but I really don't see any real harm in anything she has done except be as annoying as hell; my sister went to a Baptist church when she was 15, ended up marrying a future preacher, and now, at 50, is still a bible-thumper. Many times over the years they have ganged up on me and tried to save me; but the only time I got furious was when they took my young children in the bedroom and told them they were going to hell and scared them to death. When I was a Philosophy major in college my brother-in-law used to point out passages in the bible about philosphers being of the devil. Mostly it amuses me. The part that baffles me is how such intelligent people could totally ignore quantum physics and put so much faith in the simplistic ideas of over 2,000 years ago. Belief in Heaven and Hell and Sin seems so childish. I let them bow their heads at Thanksgiving and Christmas at the table and let them do their thing. Over the years they have mostly given up, but of course they still think I'm going to Hell. By the way, when my sister used to plop the bible down on the table and start asking me if I was afraid of going to hell, and then use the bible as her reference, I would tell her that I was sorry but since I wasn't a Christian I couldn't possibly accept agruments based on a Christian bible, but that if she had any other source that I could accept, I would be happy to entertain her ideas.