I have no mouth and I must Scream( spoliers)

[HPL]

I had heard about this story and recently got a chance to finally read it and wanted to dicuss it a little bit.

Very dark, and rather hellish. Depressed me a little, and I'm used to reading Dark literature.

Some interesting points.

1. It never says if AM can actually manipulate reality through some godlike method, or if the last five are actually plugged into the computer via the matrix. I assumed the latter when I heard the Premise, but I'm not so sure.

2. I kept wondering why they never just killed themselves and got it over with. They said they tried, but the ending seems to indicate they didn't have the guts to do it previously, not that they weren't actually able to do so.

3. I kept wondering just exactly how AM got ahold of these five in particular, but the story never says. This ties into number #1. For a military calculation computer, AM seems to have some amazing abilities, but aparently only underground. It can grab 5 people but is insane with the fact it can't affect anything on the surface(other then destorying the surface). I have wonder if the main characters aren't actuall just brains in a jar, or real at all. Perhaps AI's created for the sake of giving AM something to play with.

4. The premise seems just a little improbable(to say the least). So WW3 comes along, and US, Russia and China all build calculating supercomputers because War is so complex. Apparently the war is so long and so complex that not only do they need these computers, they have time to build them deep under the surface of the earth and keep expanding them(It says something about them honeycombing the interior) until they eventually manage to link together one big machine(or network) and in essance, become one, which then becomes self aware and decides to kill everyone(The text says something about feeding kill orders), implying the use of nuclear weapons for all out genocide.

I understand that the story was written during the 1960's and back then, computers were a lot bigger then now for the same processing power, but as is my understanding, I find it rather hard to believe that WW3(particulary between three nuclear powers) would last so long and be so complex that they would have either the need, time or resources to build such a gigantic computing system(before somebody got deperate and let the nukes fly). Moreso, I don't think they'd be physically allowed to link up(if they computers are that close, you'd think they'd focus on blowing up the other nations AM's). Perhaps it had some skynet like manufacutering capabilities but there was no indication.

Or am I totally overthinking this?

Any thoughts?

[silenus]

You are TOTALLY overthinking this. The "why" is completely unimportant to the story. Harlan wanted you to feel, not think.

[Soul Brother Number Two]

Totally. It's supposed to make you shit your pants and cry yourself to sleep. That's what it did for me anyway. Single most terrifying thing I've read.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Also remember that everything Harlan knew about science in 1966 could be rolled up into a ball and inserted into the period at the end of this sentence (and still have room for two caraway seeds and an agent's heart).

[Bullwinkle]

What's really wierd is that this story spawned all of the "Terminator" movies.

[BabaBooey]

Is this book impossible to find?

[HPL]

Originally posted by essvee
Totally. It's supposed to make you shit your pants and cry yourself to sleep. That's what it did for me anyway. Single most terrifying thing I've read.

I won't go that far, but Ellison definatly has a sense for the disturbing. I'd suggest a movie or even a twilight zone episode, but I don't think it could be done and be nearly as effective as the story.

I do have a slight problem of nitpicking things, even if I love them. I also wasn't around during the 1960's, so maybe I can't relate to how much he could have been expected to know about computers and nuclear war in general.

I've heard there was a computer game made of it, but so far I've found that it's almost impossible to find(and $32 seems a little high for what I've heard about it).

[HPL]

Originally posted by BabaBooey
Is this book impossible to find?

Not to my knowledge. I didn't have too hard a time finding it, particulary considering it's supposed to be one of the 10 most reprinted stories ever and won a Hugo award.

[HPL]

Originally posted by Bullwinkle
What's really wierd is that this story spawned all of the "Terminator" movies.

Is it? I know one of his stories had a lot to do with it, but as far as I can tell, the only thing it has to do with the Terminator is the fact a military computer becomes self aware and nukes the human race out of existance. Other then that, I can't find much in common. Skynet seemed more efficent and cold about the entire thing. Killing John was nothing personal, just something that gurenteed victory for skynet. AM was deeply and perhaps utterly insane with hatred, something you don't usually associate with computers. It seemed to be deeply personal for AM.

[Wendell Wagner]

Here's a list of some anthologies that contain the story:

http://isfdb.tamu.edu/cgi-bin/pw.cgi?56e199

This is an old list, so there are undoubtedly some more anthologies that contain the story.

_The Terminator_ stole its ideas from many places (and I mean that as a compliment), and one of them is Ellison's scripts for a couple of _Outer Limits_ episodes. It's not useful to say that any one story was the source of the ideas for _The Terminator_. It's hard to know if "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" was one of the sources for the movie.

[Adjustable_Beavis]

This is one of my favorite short stories. I think the above posters are correct. It is not really supposed to be a "hard" science fiction story. I've always thought he was trying to make the reader think and feel more about the people involved than the tech.

[Mal Adroit]

This was the story that convinced me Ellison wasn't all bluster. His forwards and prefaces are sometimes more entertaining than his stories... but when he's on, his fiction is ferocious.

[rowrrbazzle]

Originally posted by HPL
I've heard there was a computer game made of it, but so far I've found that it's almost impossible to find(and $32 seems a little high for what I've heard about it). I ordered it directly from Ellison. I couldn't get it to run under Win98, though. But it does come with a mouse pad with a cool 3-D image.

[robertliguori]

Play the computer game. It answers a lot of questions, although it's not strictly canon as far as I can tell.

[that.sound.again]

Ooohh, thanks for reminding me!

This was a very strong, even devastating read for me the first time. I agree that the tech aspects don't make much sense when examined closely, but the point is something else: The characters and their emotional response to the situation. The horror of it. Man's ability to create hell for himself.

[HPL]

Originally posted by robertliguori
Play the computer game. It answers a lot of questions, although it's not strictly canon as far as I can tell.

I'd like to, but I don't know if the price justifies the purchase. $32 + shipping seems a bit steep for a nearly 10 year old game that apparently has quite a few unfixed bugs(or so I've heard).

[Algernon]

This short story is in my top two of all time. I read it as a kid and was blown away with the horror of the final situation.

My other favorite is "It's A Good Life" (http://www.llywelyn.net/docs/greats/its_a_good_life.html) by Jerome Bixby.

[Sir Prize]

Originally posted by HPL
I'd suggest a movie or even a twilight zone episode, but I don't think it could be done and be nearly as effective as the story.

How about a comic book? (http://www.sequentialellison.com/gallery/dream1.html)

[Sir Rhosis]

Not that this will answer your technical questions, but Ellison makes the point very sharply in an intro on a recording of this story that Ted (the narrator, the "I") is not totally to be trusted, and in some cases utright lies (his assessment of Ellen (or was it Helen?), for example.

FWIW, I accept that these are the last five real people, not brains in a jar, what-have-you.

Sir Rhosis

[Sir Rhosis]

P. S. FWIU, most of Ellison's basis for suing over The Terminator was its similarity to his story, "Soldier," specifically as it aired as an episode of The Outer Limits.

Sir Rhosis

[CalMeacham]

I always thought that would make a good subtitl for Dilbert


Iread the Hasrlan Ellison story in the anthology of the same name at a very tender age. It impressed me deeply. I read the comic adaptation quite a while ago.

I never hought it inflenced Terminator at all. as Sir Rhosis notes, it probably owes more to the Outer Limits episode "Soldier" which Ellison penned (and the earlier short story of the same name). I also suspect it owes something to his other Outer Limits episode, "Demon with a Glass Hand", which is also about folks from the future coming back to our time to duke it out over the Fate of the World. (DWAGH is, by the way, my al-time favorte TV science fiction episode).

Of course, there are those who claim that Terminator also owes a big debt to Philip K. Dick's "Second Variety". I think anyone who makes an SF movie is bound to be influenced by the preceding literature. Cameron, IIRC, mentioned Elison as a big influence, and that got him in trouble. See if anyone in film acknowledges his influences now.

[Baldwin]

Right; I see The Terminator as being influenced by "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream" and two Outer Limits episodes: "Soldier" and "Demon With a Glass Hand", and possibly the short story "Brillo". I don't know if it was worth a lawsuit, but I know once Ellison thinks somebody's crossed him, he won't drop it until he's been dead twelve years. He's still pissed off about "City on the Edge of Forever".

Most of what passes for "dark" literature these days is horror genre potboilers and desperately "cool" vampire stuff. There are scarier things inside every one of us.

[Why A Duck]

The game was pretty good, definitely not for FPS fans, but thought-provoking. The concept was scripted by HE, so it's probably fairly canon-esque.

[HPL]

Originally posted by Why A Duck
The game was pretty good, definitely not for FPS fans, but thought-provoking. The concept was scripted by HE, so it's probably fairly canon-esque.

I heard that it didn't sell that well, as such that Mr. Eillison sued the company becuase he felt he wasn't getting his fair share of the profits....only to find out there were no profits.

[Wendell Wagner]

CalMeacham writes:

> Cameron, IIRC, mentioned Elison as a big influence, and that
> got him in trouble.

I believe that what happened was that Cameron in interviews at the time _The Terminator_ was released talked about the influence of certain unspecified episodes of _Outer Limits_. When Ellison heard about this and saw the possible influence of the episodes he wrote, he threaten a lawsuit and got a settlement from the owners of the film. I think that Cameron steals from a lot of sources. It's hard to pin down what are the influences on _The Terminator_ because there are so many of them.

[Bullwinkle]

I'm sorry if I may have given false information in the earlier post re: Terminator. I don't own a copy of the original movie in the series but I'd swear on Cecil's brain that Harlan is mentioned in the credits. At the beginning of the film there's a "based on a story by" credit. I'm sure there is. Unless...maybe a terminator came back in time and changed the credits...hmmmm. Might be a story there...

[Exapno Mapcase]

How hard is it to check IMDB?

Harlan Ellison (screenplays Soldier, Demon with a Glass Hand) originally uncredited

[Wendell Wagner]

There was no credit given to Ellison when the film first came out. Part of the settlement that Ellison demanded (beyond the money he got) was that he get a credit in the film. I believe that the credit appears at the beginning of the end credits and says, "With acknowledgement to the works of Harlan Ellison."

[Mal Adroit]

Originally posted by Baldwin
I know once Ellison thinks somebody's crossed him, he won't drop it until he's been dead twelve years. He's still pissed off about "City on the Edge of Forever".

Did you read his book-long rant at Gene Roddenberry (who sounds like he'd been going senile for years) when Ellison published the original script a few years ago? Geez, okay, we get it, Harlan. Roddenberry was clueless and you're brilliant. Can we let it go at some point?

[HPL]

Originally posted by Algernon
This short story is in my top two of all time. I read it as a kid and was blown away with the horror of the final situation.

My other favorite is "It's A Good Life" (http://www.llywelyn.net/docs/greats/its_a_good_life.html) by Jerome Bixby.

I remember the Twilight Zone episode, and that story was even more disturbing. Genunially Hellish, wrapped in a small-town atmopshere.

Everytime I read it, I wonder about the difficulties invovled at learning to swing an axe at a head-sized object while thinking of something totally different, or nothing at all, at the same time.

[CalMeacham]

There was no credit given to Ellison when the film first came out. Part of the settlement that Ellison demanded (beyond the money he got) was that he get a credit in the film. I believe that the credit appears at the beginning of the end credits and says, "With acknowledgement to the works of Harlan Ellison."


I'm a credit-reader. Sometimes you find gems in those credits (read the closing credits for Robocop carefully sometime. Or look up "Crazy Credits" on the IMDB entry, if you're lazy.)

When erminator first came out, there was no credit for Ellison. I'm sure f that. When it firs came out on videotape, they had inserted a credit for Ellison -- but it wasn't at the beginning of the credits. I think it was very near the end. On the present videos and DVDs, the credit for Ellison is the first item in the closing credits.

[Revtim]

When erminator first came out...That was an exciting flick, what all those robotic white-furred weasels trying to kill Sarah Conner.

[RealityChuck]

Harlan's credit on Terminator: Essentially, he was not given credit on the original film. After he sued, rereleases were supposed to list his name. However, Cameron has a history of "forgetting" to include it, so there are some video or DVD editions where it was left off. When that happens, Harlan's lawyer called and the name is put back.

And I agree that the Bixby story of It's a Good Life is a great one, and superior to the TZ version, mostly because in the story the boy is not really evil, just capricious and immature.

[Algernon]

In case the casual reader of this thread is interested, the entire short story It's A Good Life is online via the link I provided earlier.