another Star Trek/Star Wars crossover question..

[kasuo]

having recently been inspired by the "Enterprise vs Star Destroyer" thread, a question came to mind, "who would win in a fight? the borg collective or the galactic empire?" and im talking about sheer firepower (or laserpower, whatever) and neglect the whole Force crap cuz i know some of you would say "oh but darth vader or the emperor can choke the borg to death.. blah blah". well, even if the emperor and darth went about choking the collective, there are probably billions, if not trillions, of drones so eventually they would get tired of choking the drones.

[soulsling]

easy, the borg.
all those re-aligning shields and one central brain to direct them all, they would romp some storm trooper butt. If the Storm Troopers had better fitting uniforms, i'm sure they'd make a better run for it, but could you imaging the ISD being assimilated? wow.

[carnivorousplant]

The Borg.
Why do the storm troopers wear that white armour? To make better targets for teddy bears throwing rocks?

[extra crispy]

no force? what the hell is that about? if youre going to argue about the collective might of the empire then they have to be able to use the force. you cant just say the empire cant use the force, thats like saying "ok who would win USA or France, but none of this nuclear weapons crap." of course the empire wont stand a chance.

[vandal]

kasuo is not saying that the force cannot be used. of course it can be used -- he is just saying that it would not be effective.

now if kasuo is talking about the post episode 6 empire, then no one would possess the force (being that the aforementioned are dead), which would give the borg an even greater advantage. but more importantly, the post episode 6 empire is in ruins with very little organization. their force and size would be equivalent to the rebellion.

however, pre episode 6 would be a different story.

the empire, militaristically speaking, is a superior war machine. however, engaging in wars is not the empire's sole function. and that is where they differ from the borg collective. the borg's sole purpose for existance and survival is to assimilate all other species.

the borg exist as a collective consciousness in which the concept of individuality has no meaning. freedom and self-determination are irrelevant. so with these goals set aside, and the borg solely focusing on assimilating the empire, one way or another, the empire is going down.

coupled with the fact the borg's population is close to a trillion (and keep in mind that there aren't any civilians in that population -- the whole trillion constitutes their military force), the empire doesn't stand a chance.

[vandal]

...(being that the aforementioned are dead)...

(um, i forgot to mention darth vader and emporer palpatine before that line. sue me.)

[Monster104]

Well, in the pre-Episode 6 Empire, the Emperor had force contact with each soldier in the Imperial armed forces, enhancing their abilities and such. Also, all soldiers are trained and drilled endlessly for blind devotion to the Emperor. Therefore, loyalty and central control are almost equal in both the Empire and the Borg Collective, at least enough so that it wouldn't be much of a factor in determining an outcome.

[Weirddave]

ok who would win USA or France, but none of this nuclear weapons crap

IMHO, we would still kick some serious french ass, with or with out nukes. And that's using nothing but the Coast Guard. hehe ( apologies to any Gallic readers out there, but it's true. Well, maybe not the "just the Coast Guard" part.)

[Breckinshire]

Okay, just the Coast Guard, but all the sailors have to continually jump on one foot during the battles.

[soulsling]

hey, its the French, we just need to send the news crews over there on Coast Guard ships and that would be enough. They don't seem to be very good at fighting their own battles, so the news crews can just get shots of them all running away.:)
soccer blue this boyo! :D

[extra crispy]

ok enough about the french, maybe i started something i shouldnt have..but anyways i have another point to make: the empire's arsenal of weaponry does not solely revolve around lasers. they also have rockets, torpedoes, bombs, and other explosive weapons. Now say for example a stormtrooper throws a grenade at a borg and kills it. the force of the blast depends on where you are standing in relation to the grenade when it exploded. if youre standing right next to the grenade youre going to be blown to pieces, if you were a few feet away you might lose a limb. also, explosions cause shrapnel to fly everywhere in random directions at random speeds. so my argument is that explosive weapons would work agianst the borg continuously because theres an infinite number of possible forces that an explosive weapon can cause, for a the borg to become completely immune to the explosion they would have to adapt to every possible scenario. arguments?

[yojimbo]

Wouldn't their shields protect them from mere explosions .
The shields seem to be only vulnerable to modulating phasers which can find the right frequency to cut through the shield .

[vandal]

you have to consider the following.

most of the battles are going to be fought in space. that is, from capital ship to capital ship, fighter to fighter, bomber to bomber... or most likely, a combination of everything. but the point is, it is going to be in space.

sure, your grenade scenario holds true, but what good is it going to be if you cannot get the borg units on land, or rather, any place that has gravity so the grenade can actually be thrown?

you also mention that the empire's arsenal of weaponry includes rockets, bombs, and torpedoes (which i'm still trying to figure out what good torpedoes would do in space, but ok). all of those projectiles require oxygen to work. once again, since most of the battles are going to be fought in space, those weapons would not do much good. because, you know... space... no oxygen... not gonna work...

but like i said earlier, the deciding factor here is numbers. the borg collective would win based on the sheer number of them.

[extra crispy]

if you remember correcly the first death star was destroyed when luke fired proton torpedoes into it. also, when the empire was looking for the millenum falcon in the asteroid field tie bombers dropped proton bombs on the larger ones to try and flush them out. this proves that such weapons do work in space. also, if the borg were to deafeat the empire they would have to land troops. the empire also has planetary defense systems complete with shields. im still not convinced that the borg would defeat the empire.

fyi: you mentioned that the empire has lost the force with the death of vadar and emperor palpatine.. not so my friend, the emperor's clones and vadar's ghost are still around. post episode 6 new technologies and soldiers came about that require the dark side of the force to function or use it to enhance abilities (ie. darktroopers, shadow droids, etc.)

[soulsling]

tough battle....
the borg would probably have the advantage in hand to hand, or even troop on troop armed with whatever sidearms or portable weaponry. Otherwise, the Empire has so much more ballistics then anything we've seen in the Borg. en masse, the borg collective on the Empire would not win i think. The empire has too many defenses. The borg would probably strike in guerilla attacks being as how they have one central brain. Darth's controlling the Empire is a bit messy compared to the collectives control. That would make a great long battle. (Provided neither side allied with the French :) )

[carnivorousplant]

If the Empire used robot troops, could the Borg assimilate them? Would they have any use for robots since they seem to use humanoid life forms for drones? Perhaps they could learn to use them.
The Empire has the advantage of being evil. They wouldn't have to worry about protecting a planet or system from the Borg like the good guys would. They would probably be willing to destroy a system rather than let the Borg assimilate it's resources. Should they develop a biological weapon, they would not hesitate to use it as the Trek people have on at least three ocassions.
Any rebel factions would probably align themselves with the Emipre for the duration.
My money would be on the Empire.

[Lux Fiat]

The Borg. No contest. For the simple reason that Imperial Storm Troopers are the worst shots in the galaxy. Seriously, they couldn't hit the broad side of a bantha. The Borg wouldn't even have to worry about modulating their shields, 'cause the only time they'd get hit is by accident.

[Huemr]

I really don't know who would win the battle, but I do believe that rockets will work in space, with or without oxygen. We did land on the moon, didn't we? And what about all those ICBM's, aren't they rockets that travel in space?
Now, about those torpedo thingies that don't work in space. Didn't they have Flowton(sp) Torpedoes on Star Trec?

[vandal]

There seems to be some confusion as to what a torpedo is. This is the definition of a torpedo, compliments of our friends, Merriam and Webster.

Main Entry: tor·pe·do
Pronunciation: tor-'pE-(")dO
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -does
Etymology: Latin, literally, stiffness, numbness, from torpEre to be sluggish or numb -- more at TORPID Date: circa 1520
1 : ELECTRIC RAY
2 : a weapon for destroying ships by rupturing their hulls below the waterline: as a : a submarine mine b : a thin cylindrical self-propelled underwater projectile
3 : a small firework that explodes when thrown against a hard object
4 : a professional gunman or assassin
5 : SUBMARINE

Note the second definition. By this, the term torpedo has incorrectly been used in both the Star Trek and Star Wars Universes. I can't help it if George and Gene didn't know what they were talking about, I'm just going by the book here. As for definition 1, it's not referring to a laser, but rather, the electric fish.

Now to address extra crispy's points.

Yes, Emporer Palpatine did return in a clone body, as depicted in the comic book series, Dark Empire. He returned 6 years later after his death in Episode 6. However, Luke Skywalker and Princess Leia did eventually kill him. As for Vader's ghost -- This ghost is the "good" Vader. As you know, Luke brought out the good side of the force in him in Episode 6 (the movie even goes on to show his ghost).

I also agree with your point about the bombs in the asteroid field, and the alleged "torpedo" blowing up the death star. But being that the borg deal with these kinds of weapons day in and day out, don't you think that they would have already assimilated this technology? I mean, bombs are nothing new. Nor are "torpedoes." The borg can easily tailor their shields to deflect and/or absorb these kinds of weapons.

But what I have a hard time agreeing with is the landing of troops on an Empire occupied planet. Why is this necessary? The planet can be destroyed from space by whatever the Borg's arsenal includes. The Borg can penetrate through the planetary shields once they assimilate any ship in the Empire. Yes, I realize that on the same token, the Empire can also penetrate the Borg's shields once a Borg ship has been destroyed.

But if both sides know each other's shield weakness, then what does the deciding factor boil down to? Numbers, plain and simple. Like I keep saying, the Borg just simply out number the Empire's forces. And it's not a small margin. This is a huge margin -- into the high billions.

[extra crispy]

to address vandals points:

the movie shows anakin skywalkers ghost, not vadar's. vadar was essentially two people so when he died he had two ghosts. vadar's ghost resides on a planet where many sith spirits go, i dont recall the name. Later on vadar's ghost does go on to train an apprentice. i do however recall the spirit of a long dead sith named exar kun is trapped in a temple on yavin 4, exar goes on to train kyp durron. but enough of this, the argument is about the collective borg vs the collective empire, not whos alive and whos dead. kasuo obviously meant the time period around shadows of the empire or he would not have mentioned the emperor or vadar at all so for the purposes of this debate lets just assume they are alive.
what i dont understand is how the borg could penetrate an imperial planetary shield just by assimilating an imperial ship. in episode 6 luke and the bunch were in a hijacked imperial cargo ship on their way to endor. they still had to have an access code to send to the imperials on the planet of endor to request them to lower the planetary shields. also, in the final battle when the rebellion was to destroy the second deathstar a y-wing was destroyed because it crased into the shield around the deathstar when the rebel fleet pulled off from the attack after lando realized the shield was still operative. any borg ship trying to penetrate a planetary shield by just flying through it would be destroyed. furthermore we're talking about an entire planet here, theres virtually no limit to the amount of fire power that can be launched from a planet into space.
the borg would have to land troops because they do not have the technology to destroy entire planets and even if they did they would not use it because it would contradict their existence. they seek perfection and they know they cant achieve it by blowing shit up. the empire on the other hand does have the technology to destroy planets with the deathstar and entire systems of planets with the sun crusher.
also you make it sound as though the only people loyal to the empire are stormtroopers. in the star wars movies the empire controls literally hundreds of planets many of which are loyal to the empire and willing to lay it on the line.


I also agree with your point about the bombs in the asteroid field, and the alleged "torpedo" blowing up the death star. But being that the borg deal with these kinds of weapons day in and day out, don't you think that they would have already assimilated this technology? I mean, bombs are nothing new. Nor are "torpedoes."


the borg have never faced the empire before how can you assume that they have already assimilated their technology?

[SPOOFE]

Everyone keeps saying that the Borg definitely has the advantage of numbers on their side, but I've seen nothing to substantiate this. The Borg has had a difficult time doing jack to the Federation, after all. However, I'm willing to concede that point.

Torpedoes... come on, people, don't you think that's being a bit anal? "Proton torpedo" and "Photon torpedo" are NAMES. They could be called "Proton bananas", it doesn't matter, they'd still do the same thing.

The Borg shields manage to negate Federation weaponry by matching the "frequency" of phasers and such... turbolasers don't have a "frequency", they're just big hunks of superheated plasma. While Borg shields would undoubtedly provide protection, they wouldn't be capable of "adapting" by matching the frequency. Likewise, Star Wars shielding doesn't work on a frequency basis... essentially, they're energy-generated brick walls... so the only way Borg can get through a Star Destroyer's shield is to pound on it enough.

As for the Empire, we should assume the Borg is facing the Empire at its peak (why should we pit them against the Empire when it's at its weakest? There's no point). The Empire built around 25,000 Imperial Class Star Destroyers... probably similarly large numbers of Victory Star Destroyers, Carrack cruisers, Nebulon-B frigates (the Empire built those... the Rebellion stole them), Dreadnaughts, Lancer frigates, Loronar Strike Cruisers... not to mention a half dozen or so Super Star Destroyers (the Executor, the Lusankya- although that was buried on Coruscant- the Iron Fist, the Intimidator... probably a few others), a good number of Imperial-II Star Destroyers, millions of TIE fighters, TIE interceptors, TIE bombers... also TIE Advanced and TIE Defenders (those rock), gunboats, Skipray blastboats, etc. etc. etc.

It can be argued that a single Star Destroyer can be a match for a Borg cube... however, it can be argued that a single cube can take out a hundred Star Destroyers. I leave that up to everyone else to figure out. My point is, the Borg isn't the only side to have numbers on its' side.

As for the Force... Vader or the Emperor aren't going to go about choking drones left and right, but there's a helluva lot more the Force can do than constrict an esophagus. Clairvoyance, mind reading (and when you're only reading one mind, that ain't too tough), altering the environment, etc. Who knows? Maybe, if Vader or Palpatine had the inclination, they could find a way to disrupt the Borg collective's consciousness. If we're going at this at a "good-guy vs. bad-guy" Hollywood basis (where the good guy always wins), I think the Empire would be less-bad than the Borg... chancey things would go in their favor.

Incredible... the same idea that I semi-poo-pooed in the first thread is coming back to aid me... how ironic... hehe...

[kasuo]

if its not obvious to some people having read my thread, i believe the borg have better chances of winning a war with the empire. here are a couple things should be taken into consideration:

1) sure the federation may have thwarted the attempts of a borg invasion, but consider that only one cube goes to federation space at a time (the borg are at least fifty thousand light years away from federation space), giving the federation an advantage

2) there is nothing to indicate that the borg collective is not vast in spacecraft number. just stating that the empire has over 10000 star destroyers (correct me if im wrong about that figure) and a slew of other vehicles does not negate what the borg might have. the star trek series does not show every single type of craft used, similar to the star wars movies that does not show every type of vehicle or even the novels. since star trek voyager has dealt more with the borg issue, they have shown some spherical ships and i believe a diamond-shaped scout ship of some sort, which makes me wonder how many other shapes theyll use before the revert to picasso-like asymmetry to be used in their designs

3) there was mention of the shields used in star trek & star wars. think of what the borg do best.. they adapt. given that they have assimilated well over 4000 warp-capable species, they can come up with a way to effectively go around the empires shields. as they usually say, "we will add your distinctiveness to our own". say the borg shields are frequency based while the empires shields are "energy walls" or whatever, the borg will assimilate a star destroyer, thus unlocking the "oh-so-magical-and-mysterious" properties that make up the shields used by the empire and use it to improve their own shields. i dont see the shields used by the empire as being infallable (sp?). they are not perfect and neither are the borg, although the borg are attempting to seek perfection.

4) yeah, the force is something powerful in the empire, but is it really? i mean, the empire is a vast.. empire, consisting of hundreds of planets with billions of people, a vast military force with millions of personnel. the empire was not formed simply because darth vader killed off all the jedi, thus making the sith the ruling force-people; there were political forces at work. im sure emperor palpatine went to some banquets where the most influential senators were at and he would bump into one of them and say "oh excuse me, i made you drop your wine glass, here let me get you another" and he would use the force to move a wine glass from a table to a senators hand and say "hey, how would you like to overthrow this republic and start a totalitarian state? you can be a general!" also, palpatine could have walked by some senators at the senate while they were voting on a bill that would give total control to palpatine and while they were casting their votes, he would just wave his hand around and if anyone asked what he was doing, he would just say that he was stretching. in any case, what im getting at is that the force can account for some of the strength of the empire but it is not the determining factor of its economic, political or military forces.

[extra crispy]

as SPOOFE Bo Diddly mentioned above, imperial sields are basically brick walls of energy. there is no way "around" them, only through them, and the only way through a shield is by either pounding it until it dissipates or with an ion cannon. if there were any other way around the shields dont you think the rebels would have found a way to do so by now since they fight the empire on a regular basis? if there were a way around a shield it would have been shown in the movies or in a book.

which brings me to my next point: ion cannons. ion cannons effectively disable anything mechanical. this would be extremely effective against the borg. ok so now youre going to say "once someone fires an ion cannon at a borg the rest will adapt to it.." ion cannons go THROUGH all types of shields, big shields, small shields, short shields, tall shields. the borg would not be able to adapt to an ion cannon because as soon as one is hit, it would go down, not giving it any time to send a signal to the rest of his borg buddies telling them how do adapt.

now you say "eventually the borg will assimilate ion cannon technology and use it on the empire." i dont disagree with you, but the empire's forces arent entirely mechanical (stormtroopers, noghri, dewbacks, etc.), whereas the the borg's forces all have little itty bits of mechanical implants along with biological parts. ion cannons would work on any and all of the borg forces. ion cannons can be made small enough and cheap enough for even a jawa to carry and afford (used on r2d2 in episode 4), so the empire would have no problem issuing them to loyal troops or mounting them on larger vehicles.


what im getting at is that the force can account for some of the strength of the empire but it is not the determining factor of its economic, political or military forces.


i agree, but i am not arguing that the force is the determining factor of the empires strength, im arguing that it gives the empire more tools to be utilized for their own defense. i mean if you have the ability to read someones mind it really allows you to prepare ahead of time to thwart off enemy attacks. i mean think about it, all the empire has to do is catch one borg, and sit it in a dark room with a force-sensitive mind reader and the empire would know the borg's every move. their collective consciousness would work against them.

[/QUOTE]
As for the Force... Vader or the Emperor aren't going to go about choking drones left and right, but there's a helluva lot more the Force can do than constrict an esophagus. Clairvoyance, mind reading (and when you're only reading one mind, that ain't too tough), altering the environment, etc.
[/QUOTE]

i agree. there is a dark side force power called force destruction. Basically its a ball of energy that is thrown at living things and it sucks the life force out of anything living, has no effect on mechanical things and mechanical things have no effect on it.

[vandal]

the borg are not biological -- they are cybernetic. extra crispy even said it. the force doesn't affect anything mechanical.

another thing.

the majority of the empire's military force is human. that said, the borg have already assimilated human thought. human actions can be controlled. any human that goes up against a borg will lose.

that sums things up right there. since the empire's force is mainly human, then the empire doesn't stand a chance since human thought and culture has already been assimilated.

ion cannons go THROUGH all types of shields, big shields, small shields, short shields, tall shields. the borg would not be able to adapt to an ion cannon because as soon as one is hit, it would go down, not giving it any time to send a signal to the rest of his borg buddies telling them how do adapt.

the borg function as one. meaning, what affects one member affects the whole. so if one dies, all the others feel it. but for that split second before death, that one borg would have assimilated the ion cannon technology and pass it on to its fellow members.

[Lexicon]

Exsqueeze me? Baking powder?

vandal sez:

the borg are not biological -- they are cybernetic. extra crispy even said it. the force doesn't affect anything mechanical.


I must have hallucinated the scenes wherein Vader flips a switch with the force and says "All to easy."

Likewise a cold upside-down Luke whose lightsaber flew into his hand via the force.

Also when Luke lifted R2-D2 into the air on Dagobah and speaking of which Yoda making Lukes X-wing rise out of the bog and fly through the air.

Luke being pummeled by flying objects and flung out of a "window" that was broken by said flying things which were controlled by Vader.

Not only that, but consider this...

"He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil."
~Ben "Obi Wan" Kenobi, referring to Darth Vader

At the end of episode VI, did not the Emperor use the force on a very mechanical Vader? Or did I imagine that too?

Have you even seen Star Wars? The empire doesn't have anything that would fire an ion beam at a single foot soldier. The ion cannon in question are huge, and are used to disable entire ships with a few shots. Smaller models are mounted on gunships for much the same purpose, but used en masse.

I don't know who would win, and I would have to think about it deeply to come up with a plausible answer and reasons why I decided the way I did.

But when I read things like the above quote, I have to point out how patently false that statement is.
Makes ya wonder about other statements, doesn't it?

[vandal]

Lexicon, I'm talking about mind control here.

Sure, the force can be used to move shit around like light sabers and robots, but it cannot be used to control light sabers and robots.

Yes, I've seen Star Wars. No, I don't remember Palpatine using the force on Vader.

[extra crispy]

vandal..

first of all, when i said "it has no effects on mechanical things and mechanical things have no effect on it" i was talking about that one specific force power called force destruction. and you are incorrect to state that the borg are not biological because if you remember at the end of first contact the enterprise was saved when data broke open this tube that let out a buncha plasma, killing all the biological parts of the borg, killing the borg. my point was that force destruction would have the same effect and that it would go through mechanical things, including shields, to hit living things.

secondly, kasuo argued that most of the battles would occur in space. this gives the empire the decided advantage anyway. at one point in the movie the enterprise flies past the cube, allowing you to compare the size of the two. the cube is maybe 4 times the size of the enterprise, but if you all read the thread about enterprise vs star destroyer it was decided that a star destroyer was many times larger than the enterprise and it would definatly win. the cube had alot of cool weapons, ill give ya that..but it could easily be taken out by one star destroyer and the empire has thousands. id even so so far as to say one superstar destroyer could take out all the cubes. also, the only way the borg could assimilate an imperial ship is by getting aboard it first and as many star trek episodes have established you cant beam aboard a ship if its shields are up. the empire never has to lower shields because they are directional.

thirdly, what are you talking about?

the majority of the empire's military force is human. that said, the borg have already assimilated human thought. human actions can be controlled. any human that goes up against a borg will lose.

yes the majority of the empire's forces are human but this doesnt mean they can be controlled by the borg. if that were true there wouldnt have even been a battle in first contact, they would have just said "hey picard, come here" and killed his dumb ass. where are you getting your facts from? i think you need to watch first contact again.

fourthly, the borg are freakin weak! i mean sure they can adapt to weapons fire (and only the borg drones can do this, there was no evidence that ships can) but worf took down like five or six of them in hand to hand, and there are many aliens the empire has at its disposal that can match and beat the strength and skill of worf in hand to hand(ie. wookies, noghri, hell even rancores).

fifthly,

the borg function as one. meaning, what affects one member affects the whole. so if one dies, all the others feel it. but for that split second before death, that one borg would have assimilated the ion cannon technology and pass it on to its fellow members.

sorry vandal but just the fact that they assimilate ion cannon technology does not disprove what i said before. ion cannons are designed to go through shields, all shields. and like i said before the borg would get their asses kicked in space, they wouldnt have a chance to land troops.

[Lexicon]

vandal sez:

Lexicon, I'm talking about mind control here.

When was the force used for mind control? Other than the "You don't need to see his identification," part, has the force ever been used for mind control? Does it even matter? And besides, listen to yourslef...


Sure, the force can be used to move shit around like light sabers and robots, but it cannot be used to control light sabers and robots.

Oh, I see. The force can move shit around, Vader can throw his lightsaber and control how it flies. He can flip switches, turn his lightsaber on and off, manipulate it like it was in his hand. But he can't control it. Riiiiiight.


Yes, I've seen Star Wars.

It really doesn't bloody sound like it sometimes.
Because of shit like this:


No, I don't remember Palpatine using the force on Vader.

Well, if I have to concede a point, this will be it. Palpy didn't use it directly on Vader, but he was barbecuing Luke with it. When Vader grabbed Palpy to throw him down a big ass pipe, the blue lightning type force stuff seemed to be affecting Vader in a bad way.

Anyway, I figured out who would win: Neither. The Protoss would come on over and kick both their asses.

[vandal]

Oh, I see. The force can move shit around, Vader can throw his lightsaber and control how it flies. He can flip switches, turn his lightsaber on and off, manipulate it like it was in his hand. But he can't control it. Riiiiiight.

That's correct, esse. He cannot control it.

[Lexicon]

So, let me get this straight:
he can control it's flight.
he can control it's functions such as on off and such.

How is this not controlling it again?

[vandal]

He can govern the light saber's velocity.

He cannot make it retract and protract. Just making it fly is nothing special. It ain't going to kill any Borg.

[extra crispy]

if vadar he can throw debris at luke using the force why wouldnt he be able to make his lightsabre fly through the air like a helicoper blade or something? the truth is no one has seen vadar in combat with more than one individual. weve never even seen him fighting with anyone other than a jedi. who knows what he can do when hes fighting against someone or multiple someones with far less skill than him, but you have to admit, lighsabre patty-cake is definately not the extent of his ability as a sith. also in episode 1 doesnt kenobi turn on qui-gon's lightsabre before it reaches his hand? otherwise he wouldnt have been able to land, catch the lightsabre, turn it on, and take a swing at darth maul fast enough. maul would have killed him, i could be wrong this.

as for this mind control crap, the force cannot be used to control anyone's mind, all it can do is make suggestions, which can be pretty powerful in its own right. since the borg have a collective consciousness wouldnt a suggestion to one make a suggestion to all? vadar could plant a suggestion like "you have already achieved perfection" probably making the borg just go away.

[extra crispy]

if vadar he can throw debris at luke using the force why wouldnt he be able to make his lightsabre fly through the air like a helicoper blade or something? the truth is no one has seen vadar in combat with more than one individual. weve never even seen him fighting with anyone other than a jedi. who knows what he can do when hes fighting against someone or multiple someones with far less skill than him, but you have to admit, lighsabre patty-cake is definately not the extent of his ability as a sith. also in episode 1 doesnt kenobi turn on qui-gon's lightsabre before it reaches his hand? otherwise he wouldnt have been able to land, catch the lightsabre, turn it on, and take a swing at darth maul fast enough. maul would have killed him, i could be wrong this.

as for this mind control crap, the force cannot be used to control anyone's mind, all it can do is make suggestions, which can be pretty powerful in its own right. since the borg have a collective consciousness wouldnt a suggestion to one make a suggestion to all? vadar could plant a suggestion like "you have already achieved perfection" probably making the borg just go away.

[vandal]

vadar could plant a suggestion like "you have already achieved perfection" probably making the borg just go away.

How is this not mind control? The borg have just been manipulated into thinking that they have achieved perfection. Hence, mind control, my black friend.

[kasuo]

it seems to me that the basis of argument for the Empire winning is the fact that they use the Force. well isnt it just convenient to have an omniscient power that can basically take care of anything from machine/flesh hybrids such as the Borg to plot holes and bad acting :)

[Lexicon]

Okay vandal, if you continue to stamp your foot and insist that you are right you will do nothing but propagate the idea that you are a fool. Do you have any basis for this statement?

He cannot make it retract and protract.


Dude, are you high? I'll try to break it down for you:

1)The force can be used to move objects and flip switches.

2)A lightsaber has a switch the extends the blade, and likewise retracts it.

So, thinking rationally, add 1 and 2. The obvious result is

3)The force can manipulate mechanical devices via operation of swithces that are intrinsic to said mechanical devices.

If you can follow this simple path of deductive reasoning, you will see that the force can in fact "control" mechanical devices.
If you are referring to "mind control" then you are right; the force cannot mind control mechanical devices simply because there is no mind to control.

But if you are still insisting that the force, in the fictional context of the "Lucas universe" can't control mechanical devices at all, then you are a moron in need of a bitch slap.

Can we agree on this point at least? I'm beginning to tire of trying to point out something that seems quite obvious.

What I think we have here is a breakdown in communication.
I think what you are maintaining is that the force can't "possess" mechanical sentient entities such as droids, and thusly, the borg.

I am simply stating what I have stated above, which is different, in that the devices I am referring to are not sentient beings, rather mechanical devices.

While I beg to differ about the first point, I can see what you are getting at, I think. We need to move beyond this minor point, as I am obviously right and you are not seeing that.

If we can get past this, we can start to ponder whether or not the famed "Jedi Mind Trick" of "You don't need to see his ID, these are not the droids you're looking for," fame will work on the borg, which should be the crux of our debate. Being that this tool would be a invaluable in the struggle against the borg, it is relevant and something that warrants debate.

So, assuming that we concede that a) non-sentient mechanical devices such as switches and knobs and handles and such can be manipulated, we can infer that mechanical parts of borgs could be manipulated in a purely physical manner.

Now, if we also concede that b)the borg are cyborgs (hence the name) and by definition a cyborg is a cybernetic organism and by further definition cybernetics means "the science of communication and control theory that is concerned especially with the comparative study of automatic control systems (as the nervous system and brain and mechanical-electrical communicationsystems)" then we can safely infer that the JMT (jedi mind trick) would indeed be able to affect the borg and all it's individual manifestations.

Following this path of reasoning, it seems clear that there is a very distinct possibility that the JMT would be an invaluable tool in aiding the Empire in it's quest to defeat the borg.

Of course, that's just my opinion, backed up by coherent thought and research though it may be, but I could be wrong.

[extra crispy]

kasuo, everyone is just arguing about the force right now, just another tangent we went off on like the whole usa vs france thing. the empire could kick the borg's ass, force or not.
vandal, its not mind control because vadar cant just say "kill yourself" and have the borg collective drink poisoned kool-aid...not that anyones done that before or anything... there is a difference between planting a powerful suggestion and controlling someones mind. example: i plant the suggestion in your mind that youre at a greek wedding (when youre really in your kitchen). if you start breaking plates and yelling "OPAH!" thats your own damn fault. i didnt make you do it.

[vandal]

If you are referring to "mind control" then you are right; the force cannot mind control mechanical devices simply because there is no mind to control.

This is exactly what I was getting at. I am not as eloquent with words as you are. Please forgive me and my limited English.

[Lexicon]

No need for me to forgive you, my man, I think you do just fine.

But what about all the other things I presented for us to ponder? I am genuinely interested in what you think about them.

Eh? Thoughts? Anyone?

[Sealemon88]

Not much to add, except I think it would be interesting to see a Jedi Master try the JMT on a Borg drone: JMT vs. a hive mind one trilion strong. Would the collective strength of the hive mind be any help? Would it cause psychic feedback and take over the Jedi, or at least give him a migrane?

A couple of seperate questions: Vader was also a cyborg. So we know that cybernetics do not affect one's access to the Force (At least the Dark Side). So, if the Borg assimulate a Jedi, does the new Jedi/drone still have Force powers? Does the Collective get new insight into mastery of the Force?

[vandal]

Okay, well this thread kind of went off on a tangent with the whole force thing. So let's examine the cross over once again.

Here are the facts.

Very little is known about Borg technology and weaponry. We know they have these cube like vessels that can take a lot of damage (I believe it can still function at 70% damage), but the cube's size and armament are unknown. In First Contact, it showed a smaller vessel launched from the cube, so we can assume that it's hull can carry other ships.

We know that the sole purpose of the Borg collective is to find and assimilate all other species. The drive to assimilate exists for several reasons. First, assimilation is how the Borg gain knowledge of other races and cultures. By assimilating an individual, Borg absorb all the knowledge and experiences of the individual into the collective thereby adding to their own knowledge and expertise. Secondly, assimilation is the primary means of reproduction and advancement for Borg. And third, all Borg technology is the result of assimilation of advanced species.

Now, other than that, that it the extent of my Borg knowledge. Maybe kasuo or someone else can add something to it.

Now the Empire on the other hand...

I think it is safe to say that everyone knows what the Empire is capable of and the technology that they possess. I mean, just Star Destroyers by themselves would be worthy adversaries for the Borg. Just solely based on what we know about the Empire and what we know about the Borg, the odds are in favor of the Empire. All we know about the Borg is that they have these cubes. That's pretty much it.

So you ask who would win in a fight? I say the Empire.

[awasserman]

Two Words ...

Ion Cannon

The borg don't stand a chance. Basically the Ion Cannon incapictates all electrical systems.

Adam

[kasuo]

im not too clear on how the ion cannon works as an EMP. with my limited knowledge (limited English.. lol), i know that ions are atoms that either have extra electrons or are missing electrons, thus giving them either negative/positive charges, respectively. if you shoot a bunch of these ions at anything, how will it disable its electrical systems?

a race as advanced as the Borg dont use conventional electrical systems to power their ships. as was shown with Federation ships, they are powered by charged plasma from the warp engines (as well as matter/anti-matter) and the plasma is considerably heavier than a surge of ions from an ion cannon. given that the Borg have assimilated thousands of warp-capable species (they dont think industrial societies are really worth assimilating), they have come a long way from using electrical systems and most likely even plasma-charged power systems. it can even be speculated that Borg cubes are powered by quantum singularities (the Romulans, another race similar in technology level to the Federation also used quantum singularities in an experiment to power a ship), which are basically "baby black holes". i would speculate that the ion cannons would shoot the ions at a given ship and the charged ions would jump around, trying to bond with other charged ions within the ship, those charged ions being the electrical system of the target ship, thus "taking away" their energy. however, considering that quantum singularities have an almost infinitely dense mass and its power output would be enormous, a slew of ion cannons would not be able to disable a Borg cube fast enough before it comes up with a counter-measure. or even if a couple initial cubes are disabled, they would have more than enough time to relay data from the attack to other cubes and they would come up with a way to prevent the disability.

[vandal]

An ion is simply an atom that carries a positive or negative electric charge as a result of having lost or gained one or more electrons.

It's basic electronics here. By increasing the voltage in a circuit, the circuit becomes overloaded, thus blowing out all the resistors, conductors, capacitors, potentiometers, etc., etc., etc., which renders the circuit useless. And this is what an ion cannon accomplishes. So anything that has electric current flowing through it, an ion cannon will cause damage to it -- shields, weapons, engines, etc. Structurally, the ship would be okay. Mechanically, it better get the fuck outta dodge.

[flup]

The French would be no match for the Empire.