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Pepsi Classic
01-07-2004, 04:14 PM
How did Jesus take away sin before he died? I thought that as the Lamb of God it was his sacrifice and death that took away the sin of man (the faithful). How could he take away sin before he was killed? The Bible talks of Him healing the sick and forgiving sins, but how could HE take away the sins before the sacrifice?

Trinopus
01-07-2004, 04:25 PM
God transferred his wrath to Jesus, and away from mankind.

How exactly? Miraculously, natch.

Why exactly? Mysteriously, natch.

(i.e., God could just have taken care of it all with a snap of his fingers, but the whole Passion was more dramatically satisfying.)

Trinopus

Musicat
01-07-2004, 04:38 PM
It's all magic. If you believe John 3:16=truth, you need a certain flair for swallowing the supernatural.

IWLN
01-07-2004, 07:51 PM
Since this miraculous act will only "take away the sin" of such a tiny minority of the worlds population, leaving the rest to suffer for eternity; I'm pretty sure that someone got the details wrong. IMHO.

FriarTed
01-07-2004, 10:17 PM
IWLN- yeah, they got the "leaving the rest (majority) to suffer for eternity" part wrong. One day every knee shall bow & every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. If at that time, any who confess will not embrace His Lordship, they may well be allowed to dwindle out of existence, having amputated themselves from the Fountainhead of all Life.

I think Jesus's entire life was taking on the blessings & burdens of humanity. Every one He comforted, forgave, healed, He took on their sorrow, sin & suffering. It came to its completion on the Cross at His scream "My God, my God..."

IWLN
01-08-2004, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by FriarTed
IWLN- yeah, they got the "leaving the rest (majority) to suffer for eternity" part wrong. One day every knee shall bow & every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. If at that time, any who confess will not embrace His Lordship, they may well be allowed to dwindle out of existence, having amputated themselves from the Fountainhead of all Life.

I think Jesus's entire life was taking on the blessings & burdens of humanity. Every one He comforted, forgave, healed, He took on their sorrow, sin & suffering. It came to its completion on the Cross at His scream "My God, my God..." Awfully big detail to get wrong, don't you think? Your version is what I told myself during the almost 40 years I was a Christian. Then I gradually became convinced that if one part of the story was wrong, it probably all was, so I rejected it....him. Not without a lot of angst, though. Lots of stuff in the Bible about knowing him, then "trodding him underfoot". Not pretty. If you're right, it may truly suck to be me. :eek:

FriarTed
01-08-2004, 06:52 AM
IWLN- yeah, I do. That is why there has always been in C'nity a belief in Universal Opportunity at the End, even perhaps Universal Salvation. Alas, the Eternal Tormentists have had the loudest voices.

Paul talks about "aionian destruction" to those who reject Christ (I think II Thessalonians) but he also speaks of "all things being reconciled to God in Christ" (Colossians 1). John the Revelator speaks of the Beast-worshippers being "tormented for ages of ages" (Ch 14, tho "torment" literally mean "being tested by a touchstone") but invites those outside God's City (Ch 22) to "Come and drink of the the Water of Life". Church Fathers such as Origen & Gregory of Nyssa & John Duns Scotus taught that eventually, even if they had to endure some sort of Hell to reach that awareness, all beings, perhaps including Satan & pals, would come back to God/Jesus.

tubbytreats
01-08-2004, 01:50 PM
Back on topic:

Jesus's payment for sins occured on the cross. His lifetime of living here on earth was no such payment for man's sin or sin nature. There was a price to pay for sin for an infinite number of humans who had, have, and will be born.

By one man (Adam) sin entered the world, so by one (perfect) man this sin would be paid for. (Jesus)

His absolving of sins prior to his death with the poor, lame, blind, oppressed, etc was due to the power of the payment he would EVENTUALLY give (that of his life on the cross). Were sins absolved instantly at the moment he spoke those words? That depends on your theology. But certainly these folks had faith that his words were true and held validity, and that faith is what preserved them despite their sin. When they died, certainly their sins were forgiven and they were brought into heaven.

tubbytreats
01-08-2004, 01:53 PM
Romans 5:8 RSV - "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. "