What's wrong with American toilets???

[french frog]

Crap! I clogged my offices toilets one more time! Some people may say that I am a big asshole, but I think I'm kind of average on that matter.

So, what's the deal with those weird American toilets? Coming from Europe, where we have large pipes I never had this problem, even after eating like a pig at aunt Delphine's wedding.
The difference can be detailed in those following points:

- The exit pipe is bigger. Bigger means that bigger 'solids' can go through, so far less chances of clogging. Simple, isn't it? [Note] I am talking about the average toilet. In some urban area where the old piping is smaller you may have to require an electric grinder, but that's not the subject [end note]

- There is no wide puddle.
* First thing, you don't get sprayed when the 'solids' hit the water. Good.
* When you flush, you begin to see the level of water rise (and when I say water, it's everything with it) and slowly the whole thing begins to twirl and turn, smearing all your white porcelain. Then somehow the level drops, everything goes down, until it's empty. That's when you have a slight back-up of water, bringing back usually a little bit of what you don;t want back. In European toilets, what has to go just go, helped by the wide tubing. Period.

- The so called low-flow issue. As we saw, the toilets can be clogged, requiring several flushes (my experience at work says 3), and are usually smeared, requiring another flush to clean up the mess (so that's 2). Tell me where is the water economy? In Europe we have the double-flush lever, emptying half of the tank for #1 and the full tank for #2. Simple, isn't it?


So my General Questions are:
- is there a legal limitation in the pipes size?
- what's the avantadge of the disgusting puddle?
- low-flow : do we know if it saved water after all? any studies on that?

Yes. What's wrong with American toilets? This country is a mine of engineers, leader of the scientific progress, ready to send people on the moon again... But stuck with eecky toilets. :confused:


So what's the Straight Dope on American toilets?

--------------
Some research in the SMDB brought:
\about the low-flow
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=7306
\about low-flow and National Building Code
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=10872
\and a funny one
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=29861

[jjimm]

Dunno man, in my experience compared to UK and Ireland, American toilets rock. The main thing is the depth of the drop - over here there's a hell of a long way for solids to fall, leading to terrible splashback, and therefor the necessity to put paper down, which is wasteful (pardon the pun). In the US, no problem with this. The only bad thing I've encountered with toilets in the US was padded seats in some people's houses. I mean c'mon. How big a wuss is your ass if you need a padded toilet seat? It felt like I was shitting into a sofa.

Interestingly, although irrelevantly, because of their former colonial masters, sitter toilets in Hong Kong are based on the UK model, while Philippines toilets are based on the US model. It was nice crapping in Manila.

[ruadh]

The last time I was in France, I encountered a "toilet" which consisted of a hole in the ground with two painted-on footprints on either side.

This was in a reasonably nice bar in Paris.

In the ladies'.

The worst thing I can think of about American toilets is the construction of the stalls in the public ones (I really don't like to be watched while I pee by everyone waiting in the queue).

[Angua]

The last time I was in France, I encountered a "toilet" which consisted of a hole in the ground with two painted-on footprints on either side.

This was in a reasonably nice bar in Paris.

In the ladies'.


Sounds about right. The porcelain bit we normally sit on is a "commode", and I noticed as well, that France wasn't terribly big on those.

The first time I'd encountered the "hole in the ground with a bit of porcelain to stand on" design though was in 1994 during a family holiday to Pakistan. Boy was I shocked. You literally have to undress to do anything!

[LSLGuy]

I'm not a plumber but I've redone a couple of bathrooms over the years.

The plumbing that the toilet drains into is 3" inside diameter. That size has been the engineering standard for 50-ish years. Nothing coming out of your body is that big around. The internal passages in the toilet are smaller, partly to increase water velocity and hence flushing power.

The "puddle" is there to reduce odors. After the feces slips underwater it doesn't stink nearly as much as if it's laying there on the porcelain exposed to the air.

Finally, the low-flow design was mandated by US Federal law some time in the late 70s or early 80s IIRC. As is normal Congressional practice, the law went into effect a year or two after it was passed.

And also in typical US fashion, the manufacturers spent the entire two years in court trying to stop it from coming into effect, rather than in designing toilets that'd work well with the new restrictions.

So when the law first came into effect the toilets available didn't work very well and often needed two or three flushes. Coincidentally that was during a big building boom in the US. There was a HUGE black market in toilets smuggled in from Canada. Yes, I'm serious.

A few years later the engineers got the problem solved and a modern US toilet will absorb damn near anything you can put out with just one flush. But since toilets last for 30 or 40 years, there are still lots of the early low-flow models still in use.

[french frog]

Oh yeah! I forgot about those!
ruadh , you used 'toilettes a la turque' (Turquish toilets), they used to be a very common feature in very old places, or "basic" workers area. You don't see them that often now. I used one several times in an autoshop. I hated that. And I am a man. Those are a nightmare for woman. The advantage for the owner is that you can just hose them to clean them, so it's very convenient in public areas, or in areas where people have difficulties to aim (bars...). The one in the auto shop had a wooden part you could put on it, and take a shower. Practical, very unexpensive.
"hey! Can I take a shower in your toilets?" :D


For those who don't know : http://ve2.ele.etsmtl.ca/~va2mek/parisdivers/toilette_turque.jpg

And you're right about the stalls! Privacy! I want my right of privacy!

jjimm, the puddle is wide, hence backsplashing anyway. I waste a little bit of paper too.
This thread is becoming very technical and detailed on the use of toilets. I sense the next question : to you flush while you are on the porcelain bowl or once you stood up? :)

_______
French joke : No, it's the Belgians who invented the Turquish toilets. the Turks just added the hole

[gluteus maximus]

Anti-backsplash hint:

Before you sit, carefully float a few squares of toilet paper on the surface of the water in the bowl.

You'll stay dry.

[french frog]

LSLGuy , the diameter used (France/Belgium at least) is between 3.5 and 4.3 inches. I'm pretty sure the difference in diameter helps a lot in flushing whatever would be stuck here.
The tubing is usually in a vertical S shape, preventing odors to come back. Very simple. The flushing goes by gravity.
There is a small pudlle anyway (top of the S) where anything solid would sink, hence helping reducing odors. Anyway, according to my wife's complaints, the American odor-reducing puddle seems NOT to be working :)

I still not understand the way this thing works (filling, twirling, emptying, backuping), and I'm not pretty sure about the efficiency....

[Fear Itself]

The plumbing that the toilet drains into is 3" inside diameter. That size has been the engineering standard for 50-ish years. Nothing coming out of your body is that big around. The internal passages in the toilet are smaller, partly to increase water velocity and hence flushing power.The average trapway (the passage between the bowl and the sewer pipe) is only 1.75 inches, with a maximum in some models of up to 2.125 inches. Anything larger than that, and the suction cannot be maintained and the siphon action, which draws the water & waste out of the bowl, breaks down and the toilet won't flush.

http://www.briggsplumbing.com/products/whispervac.asp

http://www.pmengineer.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2732,28999,00.html

[french frog]

Wow. 1.75 inches? No wonder I keep on jamming the toilets !

Here is an example of a state-of-the-art European toilets by Villeroy & Boch (suspended toilets for easier cleaning). You'll notice the simple U shaped (S with the next bend down the drain) exit pipe, with no fancy restricting loops. The exit pipe is 102 mm, so 4 inches.

http://www.villeroy-boch.com/fileadmin/miscdb/pdf/pdf_Zeichnungen_Bad/768710.pdf


simple U 4 inches vs. twisted looped 1.75 inches. That answers a lot of my questions....
Thanks Fear Itself .

[aerodave]

Just have to interject for a moment...I may have to post a more scathing version in the Pit to express how I really feel.

It's funny that the two or three French people I know in person are all unbearable in their unrelenting bashing of American customs.

"Why do you do X that way?"
"In France, we have/do/use/copulate with Y."
"It's better in France because..."

Continuing, literally ad nauseam.

I have a similar working relationship with a couple Brits, and while they have as strong a national pride as anyone, they seem to be able to appreciate the favorable parts of American culture. And they certainly don't harp on things they find superior about life in the UK. The Aussies I've met have been simliar in this regard. And people from less developed countries don't complain too much about anything here, because it's usually a whole lot better than what they're used to. Which is why they're here.

But the French seem to have nothing better to do than hate everything American. For Christ's sake...you're bashing our toilets now!

I'll take an under-powered, low-flush, too-narrow-for-your-seemingly-gigantic-turds toilet built in the good ol' U.S. of A. any day over some French shithole in the ground.

[/hijack]

Anyway... I, personally, have rarely had issues with American-designed toilets. I've never had an early-style low-flow anywhere i've lived. My house now has one very new toilet (1.x gal/flush), and one ancient relic that rarely gets used (approx 10 gal/flush ;) ) Both do the job just fine.

On trips to Europe, I've uses their variants, and was particularly unimpressed. Sure, they exhibit good flushing behavior. But that's not enough to make up for receiving such healthy backsplash. In a public restroom, backsplash is my problem...but poor flushing is the next person's problem. Given the choice, I'll take the American method.

Maybe there's your answer. American designers choose to take care of the current user of the commode, and fuck the next guy. But then again, that's just what's wrong with America, now isn't it?

[Chefguy]

This site (http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/watercon/toiletq.htm) has some good info on the low-flow toilet and also on the pressure-assist and vacuum-assist types.

We've installed pressure-assisted toilets and you could flush an entire cow down the damn things.

[seaworthy]

On my trip to the UK last summer I was introduced to those crazy European toilets, and believe me, I'd rather clog my toilet weekly than get sprayed with that nasty water.

[Charlie Tan]

It's funny that the two or three French people I know in person are all unbearable in their unrelenting bashing of American customs.

You know, it's funny that whenever someone dares mention something negative about the US, then it automatically means it's America bashing, especially if the negative opinion comes from a European.

I've been to the US on numerous occasions, and lived there for 9 months at one time. That hardly qualifies me as an expert, but it certainly gives me the right to make casual observations and ask questions about things I don't understand. Some of those things might be: "Why do you guys do it like that? We're doing it this way, and in my opinion, that works better." without it being bashing of America, its people or things American.
In the same way, there are things in the US, that I find totally superior to how things are done here.
I know you touched on this when you mentioned people from other countries, but I just have to say: Overreact much? Would you have ranted that way, had the OP been from Germany?

As a general observation, the too small distance 'tween the surface of the water in the bowl and the seat makes things that dingle on me dangle on the surface. Very annoying, and as a consequence, I semi-squat when taking a dump in the US.
The stalls in private restrooms are not very private and I find that annoying too.

[french frog]

Audilover, sorry if hurt your feelings. It's right French people complain all the time and feel that they are superior in any thing, which is wrong and comes from usually just a change in their little habits and a whole life of media anti-american propaganda.

(Belgian joke: how do a French commits scuicide? By shooting himself above his head, in his superiority complex)

I am one of the few French who really loves America and thing that somehow this country with a better healthcare system would be really the best country in the world. A lot of things are better done here than in France. The Fire department and Police organizations are a model we should get inspired from, for example. The links between the universities (the MIT here in Boston is a vivid example) and the business world accelerate drastically the technical progress of this country. I drive the American car, a Vette. Etc, etc, etc.
On the other side, a lot things appear better in France because we're paying a huge amount of taxes and they get redistributed, so better roads and signage, healthcare, retirement, etc. But it's just a facade. Less taxes and we would do shit. Maybe not even good toilets ;)

So I apologize, it wasn't meant that way. I really was trying to understand the way the american basic toilet was working. Sounds stupid, but when you clogg twice a week your offices crapper and when you flush twice your own at home, you got to ask yourself some General Questions.

The 1.75 inches vs. 4 inches was a very good answer to a big part of it.

[aerodave]

To The Gaspode: I admit, I would not have acted similarly had the OP been from Germany, Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, or just about anywhere else. Because, for most other places, I would find such sentiment to be less than universal. (Although, anti-Americanism is becoming stong in Germany...they just don't do it here). But the French seem to have a fetish for telling Americans to their faces how shitty our country is...and french frog backed that up, validating my point. Straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.


And to french frog, no hurt feelings at all. I was just venting. Your hoesty and candor (not to mention a funnny joke) go a long way in helping smooth over tense Franco-American relations. Which reminds me... As for shooting himself above his head, it sounds like a matter of convenience. Aren't a Frenchman's hands usually up in the air, anyway? :D

But seriously, you asked a valid question, and some Yank with a chip on his shoulder came along with a social gripe. It wouldn't have happened had I not had my French co-worker tell me just the other day how much is wrong with "[my] country." The fresh memory of my conversation with her made me jump on you. For that, I apologize.

But I still say nothing is wrong with "our" toilets. ;)

[Doomtrain]

I learned more about toilets than I ever knew. I feel enlightened and, yes, informed.

[Una Persson]

Having used toilets in a dozen countries and being a very "toilet conscious" person, I have to say that in general I think European toilets are somewhat better than US. Save for the pressure assist ones, which I have never seen in a European residence (but which may exist there). The US PA toilets do stand out as being superior to anything I've seen in a home. My PA toilet has never clogged, although once did require two flushes when I had foolishly stuffed an entire kitchen roll in there (cleaning tile...not what you think).

[extendidwarranty]

I've never gotten worse toilets than in Europe.
Perhaps because I use cheap hotels.
Any tank at the ceiling will give a wimpy trickle and require a second or third flush.
One Italian toilet was inside the shower. I suppose that means either you don't take many showers or you like to dry off the toilet a lot.

[Una Persson]

One Italian toilet was inside the shower. I suppose that means either you don't take many showers or you like to dry off the toilet a lot.
OMIGOD - I've heard of those, but never seen one. :eek:

I've seen the "litterbox" toilets in Spain too. Stepped in one on accident. My range of reactions went something like :confused: :eek: :mad: :o

[sinjin]

I actually prefer some of the European toilets. Especially the ones that have the little half circle buttons on the top. Push the left and get a low flow flush, push the one on the right get a high flow flush. I wish I had those at home.

However, I did not care for the Greek toilets with no TP. I expected that in Indonesia but not in Europe. (Geography impaired here, Greece is in Europe isn't it?)

I even figured out the climbing on the rim/seats deal that women do after perusing the footprints of the previous occupants. After a while it just seemed normal.

[Grey]

Fair enough PictsiePat, but be careful about breathing life into a thread from January.

[SSgtBaloo]

I'm no expert on European plumbing, having spent 2 years at an airbase in Germany. I suspect that there, as they do here, the lowest bidder won the contract. ;)

Having said that, I also have some gripes about our "modern" toilets that seem to match those of the OP and I was born here.

My house was built in 1955, and at some time in the not-too-distant past, the previous owner improved the house by increasing the size of the kitchen & master bedroom, adding a bath just for the MBR. The hallway toilet may not be archaic, but it does its job very well -- no spashback and when you flush, an impressive display of hydraulic power whisks the offending matter down the pipes posthaste.

The new, "modern" toilet, OTOH, can be relied upon to clog at least once or twice a year. Sometimes, when it's on a roll (insert rimshot here) it will clog several times a month. I suspect that part of this may be due to amateur workmanship when the pipes were laid, but at least twice a year I have to go outside and "work the clog" from the other end just to get things going again. When flushing, there's never quite enough power to send everything on its way. :mad: Often multiple flushes only serve to thove the current wastepile into the one that didn't quite escape down the pipes and the resulting logjam requires considerable plunging and occasionally chemical warfare (drano, undiluted lye, or whatever bottled vitriol is available).

The "modern" toilet must have been designed by someone with no/very small external genitalia. I believe I am average in this respect, but due to the high water level in the bowl, I must take care to sit "just so" else parts of me will be baptised in water of questionable sanitation. And it's cold, too!

Someone mentioned padded seats earlier in teh thread. I have used padded seats for years, but finally realized whi they are a good thing, when in a fit of Scotsmanship, I replaced the old, cracked padded seat with the cheapest plastic seat I could find. This was in winter, and to save on heating, I usually keep the MBR bath door closed (and thus, cold. I realized the error of my ways when, one cold morning, I went into the (even colder) bathroom for my morning "constitutional". When my posterior hit that seat you could almost hear the capillaries slam shut! It was like sitting on a block of ice, but not as wet.

I replaced the cheapest hard plastic seat I could find with the cheapest padded seat I could find that very day. If I need to wake up in a hurry, I'll take the espresso, please. ;)

--SSgtBaloo

[clairobscur]

Oh yeah! I forgot about those!
ruadh , you used 'toilettes a la turque' (Turquish toilets), they used to be a very common feature in very old places, or "basic" workers area. You don't see them that often now. [/size]



They're still very common in bars/cafes, especially in the men's bathrooms. As you stated, they're convenient to clean and obviously won't break. So, there's no need to ever replace them, hence a lot of cafe's owner won't see a good reason to switch to something else.


For those wondering : they look like a square a couple feet wide of porcelain on the ground, with a hole in the middle and two surelevated "footsteps" (still in porcelain) in front of it.

[legion]

I...However, I did not care for the Greek toilets with no TP. I expected that in Indonesia but not in Europe. (Geography impaired here, Greece is in Europe isn't it?)



I'm with you on that one, PP.

I often holiday in the Greek Islands and have learnt to do my numbers twos in the toilets of bars or restaurants. I do not like leaving my used TP festering in a bin in my holiday apartment. Yuck!

[Dogface]

You know, it's funny that whenever someone dares mention something negative about the US, then it automatically means it's America bashing, especially if the negative opinion comes from a European.


You know, it's funny that whenever someone dares mention something negative about Europe, then it automatically means it's Europe-bashing, especially if the negative opinion comes from an American.

[Dogface]

IThe new, "modern" toilet, OTOH, can be relied upon to clog at least once or twice a year. Sometimes, when it's on a roll (insert rimshot here) it will clog several times a month.

Thank "ecologists" and similar morons.

[sinjin]

My most humble apologies Grey. It was a mistake but for future reference where do I find the expiration date on posting. Is there a box I can click on, or some obscure thread in ATMB? Thanks in advance for your response.

[Una Persson]

My most humble apologies Grey. It was a mistake but for future reference where do I find the expiration date on posting. Is there a box I can click on, or some obscure thread in ATMB? Thanks in advance for your response.
Generally, the Staff like to see new threads created on topics, rather than bumping old ones, unless the new posts add appreciably to the prior discussion. However, AFAIK there is no "time limit", and with the Board sometimes having been highly unresponsive the last quarter, people can be forgiven for not having been able to use Search or post earlier to a thread whilst it was still "alive".

It's not a "major offence" or anything, although it does seem to bother some Members. But it is something that the Staff have said they would prefer people not do.

Una, who is not a Moderator

[Mangetout]

I actually prefer some of the European toilets. Especially the ones that have the little half circle buttons on the top. Push the left and get a low flow flush, push the one on the right get a high flow flush. I wish I had those at homel.Dual-flush toilets rock - mine has an ordinary lever-style handle - push down and release for a small flush, push down and hold for serious logging operations.

[Grey]

It's not a "major offence" or anything, although it does seem to bother some Members. But it is something that the Staff have said they would prefer people not do.

Una, who is not a ModeratorCheck the top left corner of the last post in the thread for the date of the last post. I was just trying to point out it’s an old(ish) thread and not trying to give you a hard time.

Grey, who doesn’t even play a mod on TV.

[Grey]

Well that was badly done. :(

[BobLibDem]

We're remodeling our house and are going to replace two toilets. Not being frequent toilet shoppers, what should we look for? Is there a specification or measurement for ability to avoid clogging? My instinct is to drive to Canada and get a big old water user, but there must be some efficient models that actually work, aren't there? Does anyone have a toilet that rocks?

[OxyMoron]

We're remodeling our house and are going to replace two toilets. Not being frequent toilet shoppers, what should we look for? Is there a specification or measurement for ability to avoid clogging? My instinct is to drive to Canada and get a big old water user, but there must be some efficient models that actually work, aren't there? Does anyone have a toilet that rocks?Consumer Reports did a report on terlets about a year and a half ago. You can get the report by joining consumerreports.org - a monthly membership is, IIRC, $2.95 and gives you access to the archives. There was quite a bit of variation on quality (interestingly, there wasn't any correlation with price), but they concluded that there are more than enough good, modern, water-saving toilets in all price ranges to make driving to Canada pointless.

[Acsenray]

Thank "ecologists" and similar morons.

Please see LSL Guy's comments above. Also, I wonder, given a chance to think about it again, you would think this an appropriate way to express your views in General Questions.

The only European toilets I've used were in Amsterdam's Schiphol airport. I found them inferior to the toilets I'm accustomed to in the United States. The "small puddle" meant that while I was doing the job, the detritus accumulated on a dry part of the bowl -- it left and ugly smear and required several flushes to clean up. (The "big puddle" disparaged in the OP is there to keep all the detritus underwater at all times, so as to reduce the diffusion of odours.) And then the flush turned out to be some kind of water fountain, which tended to spray water all over the place -- I noticed that most of the stalls had wet floors.

[Acsenray]

Sounds about right. The porcelain bit we normally sit on is a "commode", and I noticed as well, that France wasn't terribly big on those.

Actually, I don't think that there is a generally agreed upon "proper" name in English for the thing you sit upon to do your business.

"Commode" and "lavatory" actually refer to the sink or basin where you wash your hands and face.

"Toilet" actually refers to the entire act or process of preparing yourself to go out in public.

[35340]

Middle of the summer, 9 months pregnant, 40 pounds heavier than you've ever been in your entire life, frequent urniation ....

Padded seats ROCK.

[Bippy the Beardless]

Does anyone know if pressure assist toilets can be fitted in any ordinary bathrooms in America? Do they require special plumming, or electrical connection (scary thought).I have only seen them in shopping malls etc., could I get one for my private residence (with landlord's permission of course).