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Pepsi Classic
01-21-2004, 07:39 PM
Why do conservatives has such hatred for Europe? I goes beyond the recent Iraq situation. There seems to feeling from conservative that Europe is an "evil" society and America should have nothing to do with it. Why is this?

Rashak Mani
01-21-2004, 07:48 PM
You want it in alphabetical order ? There are many reasons. Most Europeans for example accept:

- Gays and Lesbians openly
- Gay Marriages
- Marijuana use
- Welfare and Social Security !!!!
- Taxing the Rich more
- That the Environment is important
- Racial Differences
- Month Long paid vacation
- Sex as a normal thing

Most don't accept:

- Religion as a major factor in their lives
- Religion mixed with Politics (Germany is a possible exception)
- Big differences in earnings of the Rich vs. Poor
- Uncontrolled Pollution
- Uncontrolled Greed
- Media monopolies

XT
01-21-2004, 07:56 PM
Too funny....have you stopped beating your wife yet?? ;)

-XT

Rashak Mani
01-21-2004, 07:58 PM
Too funny....have you stopped beating your wife yet?? ;)

-XT

No, unless she asks me too stop... ;)

manhattan
01-21-2004, 08:07 PM
Well, I was actually formulating a measured response to the question, but since the usual hate machine crowd has showed up so soon, I'll just stick to dispelling some of the factual errors that have occurred in the very first post.


- Gays and Lesbians openly: Well, except for Romania, Algeria, The Vatican, Austria, Ireland, shall I go on?

- Gay Marriages: Name, oh, five European countries that have gay marriages.

- That the Environment is important: Because, of course, the U.S. has no environmental law and there's no pollution in Europe.

- Racial Differences: Bahahahahaha!

- Sex as a normal thing: What?

- Religion mixed with Politics (Germany is a possible exception): Many European countries have an official state religion, funded with tax dollars. And they sure don't mind mixing religion with politics when it comes to banning religions they don't like.

- Big differences in earnings of the Rich vs. Poor: Well, except that many of the more dynastic fortunes exist in Europe, some extending hundreds of years and some so rich they get to call themselves royalty!

- Media monopolies: European media is much, much more concentrated than in the United States, a remnant of when much, most or even all of the broadcast media was (or is) state-owned



As for actually answering the OP, no. I won't. Maybe another conservative will take a fair crack at it, but I'm sick of the cartoonish crap from all the little decembers on the left.

Brandus
01-21-2004, 09:40 PM
Possibly because most attempts to limit american influence have come from Europe. ICC, WTO sanctions, Galileo alternative to GPS, banning english words, banning american movies, trying to patent names like Parmesan Cheese, Euro competing with the dollar.

Personally, I'd be distrustful since they started two world wars, and all.

Lobsang
01-21-2004, 09:43 PM
Personally, I'd be distrustful since they started two world wars, and all.

Yeah we're a load of Jew hating nazis here in europe.

elfkin477
01-21-2004, 09:56 PM
Why do threads like this get started here instead of the pit? The only point of something like this is to piss and moan about how evil we conservatives are.

OTOH, at least we know the difference between usage of Have and Has, so maybe " Liberals are so dumb" would make an interesting great debate. You know, for balance. :rolleyes:

Lobsang
01-21-2004, 10:14 PM
" Liberals are so dumb" would make an interesting great debate

Actually, some of the dumbest things I've heard quoted are things that conservatives have said. But if you can give me some examples of Liberal stupidity I'd be glad to read and laugh at them (grammar errors excluded)

antechinus
01-21-2004, 10:24 PM
I agree Manhattan. We should introduce some evidence based data into the discussion. Although, Rashak Mani does have a point about the environment. The US not being a signatory to the Kyoto protocol. Also I understand the US EPA is more about public health than protecting ecosystems and biodiversity.

In a recent study, summarised in Scientific American (december 2003), a survey of 77 countries from around the world shows that there is a big difference in modernity between the USA and countries like Sweden, Norway and the Netherlands. The protestant European countries being more 'modern' in terms of freedom of expression and freedom from traditional beliefs. Note that this survey was undertaken prior to the 'war on terror' which had undoubtably moved the US even further backwards in terms of freedom.

I suggest it is this differnce in 'modernity' that creates the dislike.

elfkin477
01-21-2004, 10:26 PM
Actually, some of the dumbest things I've heard quoted are things that conservatives have said. But if you can give me some examples of Liberal stupidity I'd be glad to read and laugh at them (grammar errors excluded)

You can't exclude grammar errors! That's why you all think Bush is so dumb. " He says nuclear wrong huh huh huh. Bush talks funny, he must be dumb." While I wouldn't stake my life on it, I bet there are at least as many threads on the SD calling him stupid for his grammar and diction as ones calling him stupid because of his policies. So obviously it's ok by dems to judge someone's intelligence on their manner of speaking and writing...

</hijack>

cckerberos
01-21-2004, 10:32 PM
In a recent study, summarised in Scientific American (december 2003), a survey of 77 countries from around the world shows that there is a big difference in modernity between the USA and countries like Sweden, Norway and the Netherlands. The protestant European countries being more 'modern' in terms of freedom of expression and freedom from traditional beliefs. Note that this survey was undertaken prior to the 'war on terror' which had undoubtably moved the US even further backwards in terms of freedom.

I suggest it is this differnce in 'modernity' that creates the dislike.

Well, I guess it all depends on how you define terms like 'modernity' and 'freedom', I guess. I would wager that most conservatives and libertarians (I'm adding in libertarians because I think they have a similar dislike for Europe) would feel much less 'free' in Europe than they do in the US because 'economic liberties' seem to be much less there.

Lobsang
01-21-2004, 10:36 PM
You can't exclude grammar errors! That's why you all think Bush is so dumb. " He says nuclear wrong huh huh huh. Bush talks funny, he must be dumb." While I wouldn't stake my life on it, I bet there are at least as many threads on the SD calling him stupid for his grammar and diction as ones calling him stupid because of his policies. So obviously it's ok by dems to judge someone's intelligence on their manner of speaking and writing...

</hijack>

Talk, and type are two different things. I doubt Pepsi Classic would have said 'has' if he was speaking that OP. GWB does talk like an idiot. I am not saying that's proof that he is. But For some reason I am still inclined to believe he is dumb.

In a loose sense - A person's way of speaking is a reasonable guide to their intelligence isn't it? Are you going to tell me that a person who says 'nucular' and invents words, and responds in an extremely monosylabic way to questioning is just as likely to be intelligent as a person who's speech is articulate?

cckerberos
01-21-2004, 10:38 PM
Why do conservatives has such hatred for Europe? I goes beyond the recent Iraq situation. There seems to feeling from conservative that Europe is an "evil" society and America should have nothing to do with it. Why is this?

Why is dislike ('hatred' seems a bit strong) by conservatives for Europe any more surprising than, say, conservative dislike for liberalism or European dislike for American conservatives? Groups that disagree with each other on political and social grounds tend to start to dislike each other and believe that doing things the way the other groups wants things done is a bad idea. Is there anything novel about this?

antechinus
01-21-2004, 11:59 PM
Well, I guess it all depends on how you define terms like 'modernity' and 'freedom', I guess. I would wager that most conservatives and libertarians (I'm adding in libertarians because I think they have a similar dislike for Europe) would feel much less 'free' in Europe than they do in the US because 'economic liberties' seem to be much less there.

In the study modernity is measured in along two axis. One derives from questions about attitudes towards religion, respect for authority and patriotism. The other derives from questions about physical security, trust in other people, gender roles and personal happiness.

Intuitively I suppose we see these European countries as 'modern' anyway, something to aspire to. It is the direction that society has been moving ever since humans started grouping together - away from superstitious, survival based society focussing on basic needs.

hildea
01-22-2004, 12:21 AM
Do US conservatives hate or dislike Europe? Apart from the disagreements over the Iraq situation? That's news to this European. Do you have any of those cite things, to help me dispell my (obviously far to rosy :) ) view of US attitudes towards Europe?

* Goes to dig bomb shelters in the garden, just in case. I live in an oil-producing theocracy, after all. :D *

Paul in Qatar
01-22-2004, 12:35 AM
I don't see Americans as spending a great deal of time even thinking about Europe. I so see Europeans spending a lot of ink thinking about America.

The Cold War ended. This century will not be about a conflict between the Russia and America. It looks like a struggle between the North and South (or maybe not). In any case, Europe is not critical geographically anymore.

Further the EU is still getting its internal act together. It will take decades to do so. Until it does, Europe will be unable to act to protect or project itself elsewhere.

As of now, and for a few more years at least, Europe is not important. It seems to me the Europeans are having a hard time accepting that.

London_Calling
01-22-2004, 02:29 AM
If the OP hasn’t got a cite for conservatives “hating Europe”, s/he’s trolling. And, of course, s/he hasn't because it's irrational to hate a land mass.

Waht the hell does "hating Europe" actually mean for God's sake . . . a particular policy or policies of the EU, the continent . . I have no idea.

Why do peope fall for this idiocy ?

Pepsi Classic
01-22-2004, 02:56 AM
[QUOTE=London_Calling]If the OP hasn’t got a cite for conservatives “hating Europe”, s/he’s trolling. [QUOTE]

You know what I meant. I will pull up some cites for you. Until then go read almost anything by Limbaugh (either one), Coulter, Hannity, O'Reilly, etc.

Brutus
01-22-2004, 04:38 AM
If the OP hasn’t got a cite for conservatives “hating Europe”, s/he’s trolling. And, of course, s/he hasn't because it's irrational to hate a land mass.

Waht the hell does "hating Europe" actually mean for God's sake . . . a particular policy or policies of the EU, the continent . . I have no idea.

Why do peope fall for this idiocy ?

Typical Eurotrash response. If it weren't for that pesky landmass to our east, we could sail straight to Asia! The lucrative spice trade would be ours! Err, wait a minute...

I certainly agree that many conservatives dislike certain aspects of some European politics. It takes less than a rocket scientist to figure out why, given that European politics tend to be a bit to the left of American politics. But other than some provincial-types, there is no general dislike of all of Europe. Of course, with the given OP, it is difficult to see what he means.

flonks
01-22-2004, 04:46 AM
Manhattean, as a European I would dismiss most parts of Rashak's list as not significant. However, he has some points:


- Sex as a normal thing: What?


Europeans are much less prude then US regarding sex. Here you can stay in your girlfriend/boyfriends house and sleep in his/her room w/o parents objecting. Here sex is discussed openly in the society, on televison etc.


- Religion mixed with Politics (Germany is a possible exception): Many European countries have an official state religion, funded with tax dollars. And they sure don't mind mixing religion with politics when it comes to banning religions they don't like.


In France there is a very strict separation between church and religion. However, the head-scarf discussion shows some cultural problems between muslims and non-muslim French. IMHO that's more cultural than religious.


- Big differences in earnings of the Rich vs. Poor: Well, except that many of the more dynastic fortunes exist in Europe, some extending hundreds of years and some so rich they get to call themselves royalty!


The point is, taxing the rich is more widespread accepted in Europe than in the US, IMHO. Taxes in general are more accepted.


- Media monopolies: European media is much, much more concentrated than in the United States, a remnant of when much, most or even all of the broadcast media was (or is) state-owned.


I don't know that, but looking at US and European TV, I quickly see the difference: In Europe there are less commercials, more contents; And, the most important thing: politicians are actually critizied, i.e. the ruling ones! I never saw that in the US yet...

Whether all this is a reason for "conservative hatred" is unclear.

London_Calling
01-22-2004, 05:23 AM
Well, the OP tells me I know what they mean and Brutus says its difficult to know what the OP means. I still say it’s irrational to hate a landmass, which doesn’t, I suppose, preclude American conservatives from so “hating – at least given the way they are often caricatured.

Fwiw, most people find it easier to work with specific policies and individual countries or defined groups of countries as reasons, rationales and agendas why neo cons would “hate” a policy will vary from issue to issue – anyway, I don’t see why Canada or Australia or any other first world, capitalist, Christian, predominately white Anglo-Saxon country should be excluded as they’re little different from European countries

It’s either the USA that’s out there, or the rest of the comparable world e.g. it ain’t me, it’s everyone else, Matron.

Sorry, the terms of the debate make not enough sense. 'least for me.

yojimbo
01-22-2004, 05:38 AM
Well, I was actually formulating a measured response to the question, but since the usual hate machine crowd has showed up so soon, I'll just stick to dispelling some of the factual errors that have occurred in the very first post.


- Gays and Lesbians openly: Well, except for Romania, Algeria, The Vatican, Austria, Ireland, shall I go on?
2 posters posted before you. They are a crowd are they? You're pretty much part of your own hate machine BTW you just hate something different than them.

I bolded the bit about Ireland because you seem to know what you're talking about. Or are you just jumping to conclusions because of the Catholic Church and Ireland? Ireland has a very open gay culture now. While marriage isn't available we were don't have laws outlawing gay sex etc Homosexuality decriminalised in Ireland:

The Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1993, which repealed
the legislation inherited from before Independence
prohibiting all homosexual acts between males, came into
effect on 7th July 1993, the day that the Irish President,
Mary Robinson, signed it. In this way, the campaign that the
Irish gay and lesbian community had started some twenty
years earlier finally achieved its objective: the
elimination from the criminal law of all discrimination
against homosexuality.

The new law has been universally welcomed by the Irish
lesbian and gay community, notably because it sets the same
"age of consent" in the case of penetrative acts, 17 years,
for young men as for young women. Unlike the partial
decriminalisation adopted in England and Wales in 1967, the
new law in Ireland sets no special conditions of privacy or
age. As is mentioned below, such restrictions were among the
options initially considered by the Irish government Here (http://www.qrd.org/qrd/world/europe/ireland/homosexuality.decriminalized-01.21.94) .
There are many gay clubs in Dublin and gay TV presenters on the National Channel. There are homophobic asswipes who do nasty things but name a country that doesn't have that? So please do go on?


As to the OP a lot of Americans are anti European in the same way a lot of Europeans are anti the US. There are many reasons for this, political, a section of each side thinking they have a superior culture/society and other such silly reasons. Mostly it's brainless generalised bullshit but sometimes both sides make valid points.

Desmostylus
01-22-2004, 05:42 AM
I guess that the basic problem is that Europe, like most of the rest of the world, and like about half of the US doesn't agree that it's Bush's place to be world dictator.

What the neo-cons are doing is using a standard tool of nationalist politics. You have to have demons, real or imagined. It unites "us" against the "them". The "with us or against us" stuff. France are against "us".

But when the neocons say that someone is against "us", they mean that someone opposes the narrow agenda of the neocons. Of course they say it in such a way that the American pride is invoked, and most people interpret it as meaning that the someone is against the broader American populace.

The message gets a bit confused when the exact same tactic is applied against them evil anti-American Democrats, or them evil anti-American traditional conservatives, or them evil anti-American libertarians. ;)

nicky2
01-22-2004, 05:53 AM
Whenever anyone talls about "Europe", one fears that an oversimplified, over-generalised flow of BS is on its way. There really aint no such thing as Europe.
For example, conservative "dislike" of Europe is actually dislike of French and German policy. Not Britain. Or Italy. Or Spain. Or Eastern Europe..

However, could there be a religious element to general anti-EU feeling? I remember that "Plain Truth" (weird fundie magazine) claimed that the EU is the ten-headed beast prophesized in Revelations. Is this a common view among fundamentalists - or does it jut represent the idiocy of a fringe of a fringe?

Joachim Pieper
01-22-2004, 05:56 AM
Can Europe really be taken as a whole? Seems to me to be a simplification of the situation. Even over Iraq, attitudes to France and Britain were different in the U.S. (I assume). I'm not sure how other Europeans feel about being lumped together, but I rather think that fails to address most of the subtlety of the situation...


Cheers.

yojimbo
01-22-2004, 06:08 AM
Religion mixed with Politics (Germany is a possible exception): Many European countries have an official state religion, funded with tax dollars. And they sure don't mind mixing religion with politics when it comes to banning religions they don't like.
What European country has banned religions and what country have official State religions. I ask because I don't know and you seem to. While Ireland is quite a religious country, we have religion taught in school etc. Religion rarely shows it's face in political life apart from abortion debates etc. Culturally religion isn't as in your face as I've seen personally in the States and by anecdotal experiences told to me by both Europeans and Americans. 20-30 years ago it was a different story but not now From the Irish Constitution (http://taoiseach.gov.ie/upload/publications/297.htm)
Article 44

1. The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.

2. 1° Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.

2° The State guarantees not to endow any religion.

3° The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.

4° Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.

5° Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes.

6° The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation.

Joachim Pieper
01-22-2004, 06:16 AM
Queen Elizabeth is the head of the Church of England, no? I would have thought that religion plays quite a prominent role in the politics of Northern Ireland...


Cheers.

jjimm
01-22-2004, 06:20 AM
QEII is indeed head of the Church of England.

However, the weird thing is that, despite there being an established religion (though there is total freedom of worship), in practice in the UK religion intrudes into politics and daily life way way less than it does in the US, which has constitutionally protected SOCAS. Furthermore, the non-religious in the UK outnumber the religious by a large margin. Perhaps not the Vatican.

BTW, the NI situation is only superficially religious. That's just a convenient label for the opposing sides.

Stoneburg
01-22-2004, 06:27 AM
If as the OP states, the American right have a tendency to dislike Europe, wouldn't it seem logical that it was because Europe (generally) is further left on the political scale then the US?

So they don't hate Europe as a landmass/culture/whatever, they just don't like left-wingers. Which is perfectly reasonable, hell, I don't like right-wingers, but I don't "hate the US". :)

Odesio
01-22-2004, 06:39 AM
You want it in alphabetical order ? There are many reasons. Most Europeans for example accept:

- Gays and Lesbians openly
- Gay Marriages


Really? A few months ago I was watching a documentary on the Sundance channel. The makers of the film had given cameras to several lesbians in their late teens and over the course of a few years had them make video diaries. I really wish I could remember the name of the documentary and which country it was filmed in, maybe Denmark or Holland. What struck me most about the film was how similiar their difficulties were to that of American homosexual teens.

They generally felt isolated, were afraid of coming out to their parents or friends, and the ones who lived in smaller towns felt much better once they moved to a large city. Maybe parts of Europe are better about accepting homosexuals but I wouldn't say it's all peachy over there.


- Racial Differences


So I guess all those Turks getting the crap kicked out of them in Germany was a fluke?


- Uncontrolled Pollution
- Uncontrolled Greed


I'm sorry, we don't have any pollution laws here? What's this about uncontrolled greed?

Marc

Brutus
01-22-2004, 06:44 AM
What European country has banned religions and what country have official State religions. I ask because I don't know and you seem to.

A couple have banned Scientology, but I doubt that will draw tears here.

Quite a few European states either have an official state religion, or show preference for certain religions. (http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/c7599.htm)

Finland: Double trouble! Evangelical Lutheran Church and the Orthodox Church.
Greece: Eastern Orthodox Church of Christ
Sweden: Church of Sweden
Et cetera.

Regardless, there is no widespread hatred among American conservatives of Europe in general (dislike of certain policies or certain aspects of certain European countries, sure). France, of course, is the exception. Not much nice to say about them these days.

curly chick
01-22-2004, 06:46 AM
Why do conservatives has such hatred for Europe? I goes beyond the recent Iraq situation. There seems to feeling from conservative that Europe is an "evil" society and America should have nothing to do with it. Why is this?

Is it not more to do with hating foreigners of all shades, if hate is indeed the word?
Do these same conservatives clasp Asians and South Americans and Africans to the collective bosom?

jjimm
01-22-2004, 06:48 AM
France, of course, is the exception. Not much nice to say about them these days.That's as dumb as any other landmass hating. Surely you mean individual policies of the French government?

yojimbo
01-22-2004, 06:48 AM
Regardless, there is no widespread hatred among American conservatives of Europe in general (dislike of certain policies or certain aspects of certain European countries, sure). France, of course, is the exception. Not much nice to say about them these days. That's what I would expect. The France thing is BS IMO but disliking policies etc is fair play and quite normal.

Brutus
01-22-2004, 07:05 AM
That's as dumb as any other landmass hating. Surely you mean individual policies of the French government?

It goes quite a bit further than simply gov't policies with France. Anti-Americanism is no stranger in France, and reciprocity is to be expected. It's not like I took a poll of all conservative American pundits, but I wouldn't be suprised to find that many do not have much nice to say about France. (The people, the gov't, the culture; At least in the south, the landmass is pretty nice.) But the other umpteen nations in Europe? Nothing even remotely approaching that.

Desmostylus
01-22-2004, 07:08 AM
The France thing is BS IMO but disliking policies etc is fair play and quite normal.Brutus is simply a part of the neocon hive mind. He's received his instructions, and he acts and speaks accordingly.

jjimm
01-22-2004, 07:09 AM
Quite - but still dumb.

Furthermore, I don't believe there was quite so much anti-Frenchism (?) in the US before the Iraq debacle was there?

Brutus
01-22-2004, 07:09 AM
Brutus is simply a part of the neocon hive mind. He's received his instructions, and he acts and speaks accordingly.

What the fuck does that stupid barb have to do with anything?

BobLibDem
01-22-2004, 07:12 AM
Yes, I believe conservatives do hate Europeans. They are generally xenophobic and dislike the notion that others may have ideas different than theirs. True, they don't embrace South Americans, Africans, or Asians either. But the real venom is for the Europeans since they are white Christians too and in the conservative eye don't have any excuse to be different than the American WASP.

The conservative mindset is that there is one acceptable political orthodoxy. Deviation from this is forbidden and honest discussion about differing viewpoints is seen as needless. Look at Rush Limbaugh and his dittoheads. Conservatives don't listen to his show to get information, they listen to have their preconceived ideas continuously reinforced. In Democratic oresidential debates, you hear honest discussions of the issues. In Republican presidential debates, it is a contest to see who can pledge the most fealty to the second half of the Second Amendment and pledge to spend the rest of their lives cutting taxes. Democratic conventions can be contentious and high spirited. Republicans conventions are based on the notion that any vote other than unanimous is a sign of weakness. If you think the Bush cabinet seeks out and welcomes free exchange of ideas, I suggest you ask former Secretary O'Neill about it. One can imagine Dick Cheney casting a stern eye across the cabinet table and like Harvey Korman in Blazing Saddles, pointing a finger and saying "I didn't get a harrumph out of you."

Flying in the face of this conservative American desire for political conformity is the European tradition of tolerance of and working with people of different ideology. The conservative ideal of European behavior would be for the Europeans to simply genuflect and say "Yes, master" every time the American president makes a demand. That the Europeans do not do this is why conservatives hate Europeans.

Brutus
01-22-2004, 07:14 AM
Quite - but still dumb.

Furthermore, I don't believe there was quite so much anti-Frenchism (?) in the US before the Iraq debacle was there?

9/11: The Big Lie, a bestseller in France, came out well before Iraq, and that is probably about the time that anti-French feeling was really coming to a head, although it certainly existed to a degree before that.

Brutus
01-22-2004, 07:16 AM
...Flying in the face of this conservative American desire for political conformity is the European tradition of tolerance of and working with people of different ideology.

You are kidding, right? When did this 'tradition' begin?

Desmostylus
01-22-2004, 07:22 AM
What the fuck does that stupid barb have to do with anything?Bush told you "France is bad, mmkay?" So at every opportunity you feel compelled to repeat the "France is bad, mmkay?" mantra.

Unless you actually have some independent and cogent reason for the anti-France crap. Perhaps you could articulate it for us.

Brutus
01-22-2004, 07:29 AM
[QUOTE=Desmostylus]Bush told you "France is bad, mmkay?" So at every opportunity you feel compelled to repeat the "France is bad, mmkay?" mantra.
[qUOTE]

Ah, so that is the latest crazy theory the Leftist media is spreading, eh? :rolleyes:

yojimbo
01-22-2004, 07:30 AM
Unless you actually have some independent and cogent reason for the anti-France crap. Perhaps you could articulate it for us. 1. They didn't buy the immediate threat bullshit.
2. They said as much
3. They did business with Iraq like most of the western world.
4. They didn't say "Sir, yes sir" when the US came calling for men to die for it's own self interest.
5. If you're not with us you're against us.
6. A lot of French people got on the stupid boat with a lot of Americans and started taking this shite personally.
7. Fucked if I can think of an actual reason but I'm sure somebody like our friend Brutus will fill us in.

yojimbo
01-22-2004, 07:32 AM
Ah, so that is the latest crazy theory the Leftist media is spreading, eh? :rolleyes: No it's the latest Desmostylus theory. Prove him wrong. Post your reasons against "The people, the gov't, the culture"

Brutus
01-22-2004, 07:35 AM
No it's the latest Desmostylus theory. Prove him wrong. Post your reasons against "The people, the gov't, the culture"

So that is how GD now works? Put forth theory X, and unless it is disproven, it is fact?

BobLibDem
01-22-2004, 07:36 AM
You are kidding, right? When did this 'tradition' begin?
Well, look at Cuba. American view: We don't like your government. We won't trade with you. We won't allow our people to visit you. European view: We don't like your government. Who cares, you may not like ours either. Can we buy some cigars?

yojimbo
01-22-2004, 07:51 AM
So that is how GD now works? Put forth theory X, and unless it is disproven, it is fact? Nope not at all. You were basically called a sheep. I asked you to try and show you're not. I do believe that many Americans have true and valid reasons for not being overly enthused with France I merely asked you what where yours.

Nicely dodged though.

Brutus
01-22-2004, 08:05 AM
Nope not at all. You were basically called a sheep. I asked you to try and show you're not. I do believe that many Americans have true and valid reasons for not being overly enthused with France I merely asked you what where yours.

Nicely dodged though.


You no understand so me use small words. Make easy for you!

1)Desmostylus claim that GW tell me that France bad.

2) Me say like huh WTF!?

3) You say but he say it you unprove it or it the true.

4) So me say like WTF? He say, he prove.

5) So you say LOL you sheep you unprove or it true.

That probably makes more sense to you. Assertions are either backed with facts, or mere opinion, at best.

yojimbo
01-22-2004, 08:17 AM
3) You say but he say it you unprove it or it the true Really did I say it was true? I seem to remember say it was a threoy of his.

Answer don't answer I really don't give two shits. You're one of the people who always harps on about the French. I don't recall you ever saying why exactly other than the general crap you hear from a lot of yahoos on this boards.

Now let us agree to misunderstand each others posts.

yojimbo
01-22-2004, 08:23 AM
Oh and to see why lots of French/Europeans have a problem. It's because they read things like this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0745317081/ref%3Dsr%5Faps%5Fbooks%5F1%5F1/026-0790145-6518031). You should read it some time. Get to know the enemy and all that ;)

Joachim Pieper
01-22-2004, 08:26 AM
Meanwhile, weren't we talking about Europe?

This happens quuite a lot. We are now discussing the discussion.

Cheers.

Brutus
01-22-2004, 08:26 AM
..Now let us agree to misunderstand each others posts.

Sounds reasonable enough to me.

My reasons for my views towards France may or may not match Desmostylus' checklist. Certainly I do not dislike all French people or products (Of course, those people that put the goofy 9/11 conspiracy books on the best-seller lists in France are on my list, among others). But my reasons are my own, regardless of how many others may share them.

Brutus
01-22-2004, 08:29 AM
Meanwhile, weren't we talking about Europe?

This happens quuite a lot. We are now discussing the discussion.

Cheers.

Hell, this is being hijacked more than a 1960's airliner near Cuba, so let me ask:

Are named after the Sturmbannfuhrer, or some other Pieper?

Joachim Pieper
01-22-2004, 08:35 AM
yeah, the SS guy. Didn't exactly cover himself in glory in Russia, I'm told. Or in the Ardennes. Pretty good at his job, though.


To go back to a post that's way up on the first page, is it true that Americans perceive 'Europe' as less free?


Cheers.

bayonet1976
01-22-2004, 08:36 AM
Well, look at Cuba. American view: We don't like your government. We won't trade with you. We won't allow our people to visit you. European view: We don't like your government. Who cares, you may not like ours either. Can we buy some cigars?

Interesting. Did european countries participate in the embargo against South Africa? Or did they also take this "who cares" attitude then?

London_Calling
01-22-2004, 08:43 AM
Less "free" than Americans, someone's got to be kidding ???? God help us if we were less free.


IMHO, the OP was a trainwreck from the first sentence; first define ‘Europe’, then we’ll need an example of this “hate” midset - presumably in relation to a particular governmental policy or regional culture, and we can, maybe, get somewhere.

And no, I don’t “know” what the (OP) means. Really.

cedric45
01-22-2004, 08:47 AM
But if you can give me some examples of Liberal stupidity I'd be glad to read and laugh at them

Here's one from that senator from California, Diane Fartnstink....

"Americans want a government that will take care of them." :eek:

I personally like Euros a lot. My friend Karsten is from Germany, several friends on my motorcycle email list are in Finland, Germany, the UK, the Netherlands and France. However the Frenchman, "Moose", is so liberal he's lost all touch with reality.

Neurotik
01-22-2004, 08:50 AM
Intuitively I suppose we see these European countries as 'modern' anyway, something to aspire to. It is the direction that society has been moving ever since humans started grouping together - away from superstitious, survival based society focussing on basic needs.
This, in a nutshell, is why many Americans dislike Europeans (even though I know you're an Aussie, antechinus).

Actually, it's mostly just France. The general arrogance and belief that they are the superior culture in the world - something that everyone should aspire to. And it's been that way for several hundred years now. Many Americans see it as Europeans (read: France) unable to let go and realize that they are no longer as influential as they used to be. Indeed, when many on the other side of the pond speak of "multilateralism" they essentially mean, "do what the French and Germans say" and is essentially a way for them to exert as much influence as possible. It's also the reason they are so insistent things go through the UN, WTO, etc. Those institutions allow them to exert more influence on world affairs relative to their actual power than otherwise.

Which, to be honest, is fine. If my country were in a similar situation, I'd like to think they'd be smart enough to do the same.

That said, Mssr. Joachim is correct. Europe as a whole is not hated. Witness the large numbers of American tourists that visit there every year - even to France. :eek:

Nor do most Americans have anything bad to say about most European countries - even the most leftwing. Take Sweden, for example. Far more leftwing than France, but I seriously doubt you'd find anyone that had anything bad to say about it. Similar with Ireland, the Netherlands, Italy, Spain or a host of other European countries. And even, generally, Germany. Germany doesn't take nearly the amount of flak that France does.

And it has little to do with the Iraq thing, either. That was just icing on the cake. France has been the butt of jokes and degradations for as long as I can remember. Jokes regarding supposed French cowardice in battle, general arrogance, etc. have been staples for quite a while over here. There's a reason you didn't see people pouring bottles of Beck's into the gutter.

So, in short. Conservatives don't hate Europe. The French government sometimes irritates conservatives and many non-conservative Americans because it often acts as a non-friendly rival in terms of economic and international policy and sometimes comes across as extremely pompous with nothing backing it up. Conservatives still like visiting France.

jjimm
01-22-2004, 08:59 AM
The general arrogance and belief that they are the superior culture in the world - something that everyone should aspire to.Mr Kettle? Mr Pot on line 2.

(Not that I subscribe to this perception of the US, but I know many Europeans do.)

PigArcher
01-22-2004, 11:07 AM
Yes, I believe conservatives do hate Europeans. They are generally xenophobic and dislike the notion that others may have ideas different than theirs.This is a characteristic of fanatics of any stripe. Liberals are just as capable of being xenophobic and closed minded as you stereotype conservatives as being. In my experience, the average liberal is much more likely to reject ideas that differ from their own and demonize those who hold those ideas. The fact that this thread exists in GD instead of the Pit is a good example of that.
The conservative mindset is that there is one acceptable political orthodoxy. Deviation from this is forbidden and honest discussion about differing viewpoints is seen as needless. Okay, I must be being whooshed here. One of the underlying principles of conservatism is pragmatism. All ideas must be examined, and the ones that work should be implemented, the ones that don't are rejected. Liberalism is mindset of those who believe there is "one acceptable political orthodoxy."
Flying in the face of this conservative American desire for political conformity is the European tradition of tolerance of and working with people of different ideology. The conservative ideal of European behavior would be for the Europeans to simply genuflect and say "Yes, master" every time the American president makes a demand. That the Europeans do not do this is why conservatives hate Europeans. Again, totally untrue, and again, suggests to me that you are guilty of the intolerance that you accuse conservatives of having.

Why are there so many "Conservatives hate this and that" threads around here? Like this one, they never have a leg to stand on. The OPs are little more than rants. The affirmative replies are all from equally hateful dittoheads. Any well thought-out, articulate negative reply gets ignored or flammed over some minor point.

To attempt to answer the OP, conservatives don't hate Europe. I'd like to see some cites that lead you to belive that they do. And don't just parrot the standard attacks on Limbaugh, Coulter, Fox News, and the rest. I've never listened to his radio show, read her books, or watched Fox News, nor do I know any conservatives who do, but from what I've heard (mostly from liberals) their views are not representative of the conservative viewpoint in any way, shape, or form.

BobLibDem
01-22-2004, 01:25 PM
Come now. Who came up with "Freedom Fries"? All the anti-French venom of 2003 sprang from the French refusal to ask "how high?" when Bush said "jump". Who angrily declared in his State of the Union speech that the US didn't need a permission slip from the UN to go to war when it saw fit?

Dick Cheney made it quite clear to Secretary O'Neill: Divergent views are NOT welcome in the Bush cabinet. When questioning the rationale for yet another tax cut for the rich, O'Neill was told by Cheney that these cuts were due to the Republicans for winning the midterm elections. O'Neill's better judgement on tax policy was no more welcome to Bush & Cheney than Powell's better judgement on diplomacy.

BobLibDem
01-22-2004, 01:45 PM
From The American Conservative (http://www.amconmag.com/01_27_03/feature.html) , no less.

...But the question remains: why are the neocons so mad at Europe? The anti-Semitism that is allegedly swamping the Continent cannot be the answer, except in the minds of the more loopy Zionists. Nor can Europe’s supposed envy of the United States....

If Bush does not go to war, he loses face (and therefore votes). But if he stands and fights he risks losing the support of the 60 percent of Americans who do not believe that he has made the case for war. Some of us are wondering, therefore, whether he might not continue to procrastinate and, after cutting a relatively bloodless (but profitable) deal in the Middle East, declare a famous diplomatic victory. It is that possibility that goes some way to explaining why the neocons hate Europe. They do not want diplomatic victories. They want military victories. Some of them have been lusting after a war with Iraq since Sept. 12. Now they fear that Europe—or at least European and Third World voices within the UN—will somehow snatch it from them....

Merkwurdigliebe
01-22-2004, 01:47 PM
Mr Kettle? Mr Pot on line 2.

(Not that I subscribe to this perception of the US, but I know many Europeans do.)

Haha, nice comeback there jjimm.

As you people may or may not know I'm an American who has had a good bit of experience in Europe and with Europeans in general, and I think I could insert a few points in here as well. Conservative hatred for Europe is kind of a loaded question for great debates. It reminds me of a few of those doozies made by december back in the days. But as an unabashed Liberal (but not so liberal), I do remember there being a lot of French hatred for Europe. I suppose it was actually just the extreme wings of the party. A good example would be the boycott of french wine, etc. Its all pretty clear that there was some intense dislike of the French going on there. I would think that its not a "hatred" of Europe, more of a disinterest. People that can be inspired to demonize a certain group of people obviously don't have much knowledge in said group of people, allowing someone else to fill in the blanks. Anyway, its pretty obvious that there is a large group of people in America who aren't interested in Europe at all, because there is frankly a lot of America to be interested in, so why bother?

I remember having come back from Europe on time and talking with a typical Bush supporting conservative, and I was explaing to him where I lived, and the best description I could give him was that it is near Luxembourg. And he made a remark how it must suck to live in Luxembourg, considering how they had no national pride. It seems to me that people always need something to give their life meaning. Some people use national identity as only a small part. Others use it as a huge part of who they are. For these people, when America wins a victory on the battlefield, in a way it is a victory for them, because being an American is such a big deal for them. Not being able vicariously partake in those kinds of things seems to be a bummer, I suppose, but it actually better. Luxembourg, has an extremely high per capita GDP, so I would imagine they wouldn't sweat not being a superpower. Americans like this that vicariously enjoy America's hegemonic position in the world get mad at people who try to get in their way. But french bashing has had a longer history, so its more effective. I would say this goes the same way in France too. Too many people see france as a global player, and thus France gets forced into making moves that basically are for show.

It makes you wonder what would happen if America wouldn't be so nationalist and started thinking about their own personal lives more and how it could be better. Why else do you think the guy in the trailer in Alabama is a bush supporter although Bush is against raising the minimum wage that he recieves and is against overtime pay? Because he gets a kick out of being an American, and with the help of Fox news he can be proud of it every day, and take a little credit for America. 911 really boosted this a lot, because so many people became much more proud to be Americans.

Gaudere
01-22-2004, 02:07 PM
[Moderator Hat ON]

Demostylus, Yojimbo, take your tiff with Brutus to the Pit. You've all sufficiently hijacked this thread.

[Moderator Hat OFF]

London_Calling
01-22-2004, 02:20 PM
If true, that reads like a pretty sad indictment of a large chunk of American society, Merkwurdigliebe – they’re not that sad, are they really ?


I'm still recovering from the thought Americans think they're more free and have a superior culture . . . I think I need a seat . . .

XT
01-22-2004, 02:25 PM
Unbelievable...two pages for this disaster and nary a mod or a switch to another area (like maybe The Pit) in sight.

Originally I wrote a long reply to this 'question', even though I'm not a conservative, but decided in the end this OP was too stupid to answer. How do you answer something thats such a leading question? As I said, you could just as well ask the famous "Has the OP stopped beating his wife yet?" loaded bullshit question to the same effect.

The long and the short of it is: No, 'conservatives' (broad, amorphous catagory they are) don't 'hate' (wtf does this mean anyway) 'Europe' (what the hell is 'Europe' anyway and how would any rational person hate such a disparate mob as 'Europe' is). Only the lunitic fringe element (who are completely clueless and totally uninformed...mostly of the flat earth variety who have never been outside their home town) types 'hate' 'Europe'.

By and large conservatives (IMO from talking to them) have disagreements with PARTS of 'Europe' or with certain philosophies or politics in SOME of 'Europe'...which is to be expected as they are on different sides of the political fence (in SOME cases). There are many folks that DISLIKE PARTS of 'Europe' (mostly France atm) for a variety of reasons...just as you will find plenty of folks in 'Europe' that dislike America (should quote America too, but at least America is one country, even if it IS many parts that make up the whole) atm. But hatred? Get a grip. There is no wide spread movement or attitude amongst 'conservatives' of hatred towards something as amorphous as 'Europe'.

On and off for several years there has been a significant level of antipathy against France in the US...that is, with the French Government (and maybe even with some of the people for those of the US that had bad experiences traveling in France). But France doesn't equate to Europe...not even in the minds of those stupid Americans. In addition, the on again off again love/hate relationship between America and France predate Bush by several decades at least. This is simply the latest round of mutual dislike. There are a LOT of reasons for this MUTUAL dislike, not simply ones parrotted back from some brainwashing by Bush and the Neocon gang.

In summary (can't believe I'm even writing this much), for the most part, 'Europe' doesn't even regularly get on the US radar screen, with a few notable exceptions (UK, France, Germany mostly). So, unless someone from the left hand foaming at the mouth club can bring forth some actual examples of some kind of systematic conservative 'hatred' of 'Europe', I don't see what the debate is.

-XT

Neurotik
01-22-2004, 09:29 PM
Mr Kettle? Mr Pot on line 2.

(Not that I subscribe to this perception of the US, but I know many Europeans do.)
Yeah, I knew someone was going to call me on that, but I went with it anyway. Euros get annoyed when USers do it, USers get annoyed when Euros do it. It's a mutual irritation, I think.

And, personally, I think you should go along with your fellow, um, continenters on it. A huge chunk of Americans do feel they have the superior culture. After all, you don't see McPierre's on every corner. Mmmmm...mass produced escargot. ;)
I'm still recovering from the thought Americans think they're more free and have a superior culture . . . I think I need a seat . . .[/b]
I thank London for illustrating my point quite nicely. Thank you, my good man. I knew your bigotry would come in handy some day.

elfkin477
01-22-2004, 11:08 PM
I don't see Americans as spending a great deal of time even thinking about Europe. I so see Europeans spending a lot of ink thinking about America.


This is probably true. I know I spend little time thinking about Europeans myself, though the thoughts do pass by when I speak to posters from over there on the message boards I visit, or I'm reading about a European country.

But it's not just Europe. I spend a great deal more time thinking about Canada than I do places in the US like North Dakota. I've been to Canada, and I'm inclined to visit again, since it's a mere three hours to the nearest providence. I've never been to North Dakota- it's a 34 hour drive according to mapquest- and since I've never even met anyone from there, I doubt it's a state I'll ever visit. As long as people in North Dakota don't end up on the news because en mass they've begun slaughtering babies to feed their dark lord, my thoughts are probably not going to visit that fine state any more often than they do now.

There are probably a lot of people not unlike myself who don't tend to think a lot about places they've never been, and never will, as long as nothing too troubling is happening there. As long as WWIII doesn't start, I'm fairly content to remain blissfully netural about the goings-on in places abroad. I'm sure that I'll know when the feedings of dark lords begins in one of those places because it'll be on the news, and there will be three or four great debates on it.

Is indifference hatred? I suppose some people might construe it as such.

Pepsi Classic
01-23-2004, 03:03 AM
Sorry I haven't posted any cites yet of conservatives that show their views against Europe. I need to look them up. I will post them this weekend.

London_Calling
01-23-2004, 04:57 AM
I thank London for illustrating my point quite nicely. Thank you, my good man. I knew your bigotry would come in handy some day.

I see. It's not bigotry to assert the claim, but it is bigotry to refute it.

Sounds about what I'd expect.

Jackmannii
01-23-2004, 07:29 AM
There's a very long history of American distrust for Europe, and fear of getting entangled in its political, religious and racial feuds. It's an oversimplification to ascribe that solely to "conservatives".

Of course there are varying levels of resentment among some conservatives now based on political, moral and economic issues, but as Paul said: "I don't see Americans as spending a great deal of time even thinking about Europe. I so see Europeans spending a lot of ink thinking about America.

The level of obsession with American "hegemony" and perceptions about generalized fiendish U.S. skulduggery coming from Europe is far greater than anything in the reverse direction. We have many other more important things to think about.

Desmostylus
01-23-2004, 07:57 AM
The level of obsession with American "hegemony" and perceptions about generalized fiendish U.S. skulduggery coming from Europe is far greater than anything in the reverse direction. We have many other more important things to think about.How right you are. It not as if anything like this ever happened:US Congress opts for "freedom fries" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2842493.stm)

French fries in the House of Representatives' cafeterias will now be known as "freedom fries" as part of a Republican protest at France's opposition to a war on Iraq.

Republican representative Bob Ney, whose committee is in charge of the eateries, said the action was "a small but symbolic effort to show the strong displeasure of many on Capitol Hill with the actions of our so-called ally, France".

French toast from now on will be known as "freedom toast".

The move - following the lead of a North Carolina restaurant - reflects the anti-French sentiment among some lawmakers who feel President Jacques Chirac is betraying the US by opposing its policy on disarming Iraq.

France has said it will use its veto to block a second UN resolution to allow war to commence with Iraq.

Should we ban French wine, Belgian waffles or Russian dressing? If Mexico votes no, should Mexican restaurants also be banned?

Some legislators disagree with the menu changes.

A Democrat from New York, Jose Serrano, described the orders as "petty grandstanding" and urged legislators to concentrate on the US' pressing domestic needs.

"Should we ban French wine, Belgian waffles or Russian dressing? If Mexico votes no, should Mexican restaurants also be banned?" he asked.

Republican Jim Saxton from New Jersey has introduced legislation that would prevent any French company from receiving US funding or financing in the reconstruction of Iraq.

Neurotik
01-23-2004, 08:01 AM
I see. It's not bigotry to assert the claim, but it is bigotry to refute it.

Sounds about what I'd expect.
What you'd expect from who? Those inferior Americans? Glad I could fulfill the expectations your bigotry gives you.

Now, some clarifications from you please.

1) Where did I assert that Americans have a superior culture?

2) Where did I assert that Americans who believe other cultures and countries are inferior are not bigots?

3) How did you refute it? (Hint: snide comments lacking in any sort of thought aren't refutations.)

Airman Doors, USAF
01-23-2004, 08:05 AM
The point is, taxing the rich is more widespread accepted in Europe than in the US, IMHO. Taxes in general are more accepted.

I just wanted to point out that the reason for our separation from Europe was based upon what the colonists percieved as crushing taxes with no benefit to anyone in the colonies. I think that it's because of that that we are so resistant to tax increases to this day, because even the idiot survivalists can remember hearing in high school that "taxation without representation is tyranny", so taxation in general is seen to be a bad thing. That's not even to mention that we see few real benefits from the tax dollars we DO pay. Take Social Security for example. It's about as close as we come to true socialism as practiced in some European countries, and not only can nobody afford to live on the monthly Social Security payout, but it is eventually going to result in massive tax hikes in the future. That is one of the big reasons why "conservatives", and Americans in general, are not too hip to social programs, because they become out-of-control entitlement programs.

I'm not saying we're perfect, but I think that I'd rather deal with things the way they are instead of paying out 50-75% of my annual income in taxes.

Neurotik
01-23-2004, 08:06 AM
How right you are. It not as if anything like this ever happened:
Ah yes, one incident proves a pattern. :rolleyes:

Here's one for you - how much attention is being paid to the US elections in foreign countries at this time?

How much attention does the general US public pay to European or Australian elections. I'm willing to be not as much. I remember Mexican elections tended to garner a lot of paper space, but that was probably because I grew up in southern California. Outside of that, not much.

jjimm
01-23-2004, 08:16 AM
Here's one for you - how much attention is being paid to the US elections in foreign countries at this time?In Ireland and the UK, an awful lot.

Joachim Pieper
01-23-2004, 08:39 AM
It could, of course, be something that the average US citizen shouldn't be particularly proud of, not paying attention to elections in other countries. I would have thought that would be seen as a progressive think, attempting to keep abrest with, even discuss, the politics of another country.

And who actually pays 75% tax?


Cheers.

TwistofFate
01-23-2004, 08:39 AM
I'm not saying we're perfect, but I think that I'd rather deal with things the way they are instead of paying out 50-75% of my annual income in taxes.

Where exactly will you pay out 75% in tax, and under what conditions?

Desmostylus
01-23-2004, 08:46 AM
Ah yes, one incident proves a pattern. :rolleyes: Yes, yes, we all know that was just an isolated incident, and none of this stuff ever happened either:

Rumsfeld: France, Germany are 'problems' in Iraqi conflict (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/01/22/sprj.irq.wrap/)

Rumsfeld seeks to punish France for its stance (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/6136201.htm)

Rumsfeld dismisses France and Germany as 'old Europe' (http://www.abc.net.au/am/s768388.htm)Here's one for you - how much attention is being paid to the US elections in foreign countries at this time?

How much attention does the general US public pay to European or Australian elections. I'm willing to be not as much. I remember Mexican elections tended to garner a lot of paper space, but that was probably because I grew up in southern California. Outside of that, not much.You are getting things a bit confused here. I'm talking about your legislators having an obsession about France. Joe Six-Pack thinks Paris is a town in Texas.

Airman Doors, USAF
01-23-2004, 08:48 AM
Where exactly will you pay out 75% in tax, and under what conditions?

Under what conditions? Two conditions:

1) When all of the "Baby Boomers" reach retirement age and become a net drain on Social Security.

2) When the US government decides to institute a Universal Healthcare program.

The money has to come from somewhere, right? Well, that's what we're looking at in about 20-25 years, when we have to bail out our parents' generation due to their mismanagement of SS funds. For that reason, I think we need to decide which of the two programs are more valuable and get rid of one of them entrely. I'll take Universal Healthcare and throw Social Security on the fire, if you want my opinion.

Michael Ellis
01-23-2004, 08:55 AM
Waht the hell does "hating Europe" actually mean for God's sake . . . a particular policy or policies of the EU, the continent . . I have no idea.

Well I personally hate your geography. All those stupid little sticky-out bits like Denmark and Iberia and Brittany. Feh! :D

Airman Doors, USAF
01-23-2004, 09:00 AM
A cursory search pulled this (http://www.ncpa.org/pi/taxes/pd052699f.html) up, which states that US citizens pay more taxes per capita than anyone else in the world. It may not be the case now following the Bush tax cuts, but it's still interesting to note.

And what REALLY sucks is that it's only going to get worse.

From the same website: This (http://www.ncpa.org/pi/internat/pd021000g.html) states that, by their formula (whatever that is, I have no idea), that the EU countries have, generally speaking, the highest "tax misery", with only a few exceptions and the US lagging well behind. Makes me look forward to some of that good ol' European socialism.

Here (http://www.forbes.com/global/2000/0207/0303048a.html) is the actual article if you want to read the rationale behind the numbers.

TwistofFate
01-23-2004, 09:01 AM
The money has to come from somewhere, right? Well, that's what we're looking at in about 20-25 years, when we have to bail out our parents' generation due to their mismanagement of SS funds. For that reason, I think we need to decide which of the two programs are more valuable and get rid of one of them entrely. I'll take Universal Healthcare and throw Social Security on the fire, if you want my opinion.

What country that currently has a Universal Healthcare system Taxes at 75%?

yojimbo
01-23-2004, 09:11 AM
Under what conditions? Two conditions:

1) When all of the "Baby Boomers" reach retirement age and become a net drain on Social Security.

2) When the US government decides to institute a Universal Healthcare program.

The money has to come from somewhere, right? Well, that's what we're looking at in about 20-25 years, when we have to bail out our parents' generation due to their mismanagement of SS funds. For that reason, I think we need to decide which of the two programs are more valuable and get rid of one of them entirely. I'll take Universal Healthcare and throw Social Security on the fire, if you want my opinion. I think you're misunderstanding.

I think the question was where would you pay 75% and the conditions are things like what tax free allowances eg. I'm on the Irish highest income tax rate of 42% but that does not mean that 42% is taken from my total yearly wage. I am taxed at 20% up to 28K and 42% of the balance. There is also mortgage/rent relief etc. to be taken into account.

Basically just saying a number when talking about taxation doesn't just mean that that's the full story.

So what countries are you talking when you say that they would take 50-75% of your money?

duffer
01-23-2004, 09:15 AM
The pro-Europe camp seems to be the same ilk that are anti-US. Just to clear some things up here. France and Germany DO NOT constitute Europe. Europe is a continent that consists of many countries, most are part of the Coalition forces in Iraq. How conceited are the French and Germans to think they have more say in international politics than Spain, Poland, Italy, England, Slovakia, Hungaria, et al.?

Frankly, I'm still suspicious that France and Germany are actually teaming up. I fear in the next decade the US and UK will yet again have to bail out France. For the 3rd time!

Michael Ellis
01-23-2004, 09:17 AM
Yes, yes, we all know that was just an isolated incident, and none of this stuff ever happened either:

Rumsfeld: France, Germany are 'problems' in Iraqi conflict (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/01/22/sprj.irq.wrap/)

Rumsfeld seeks to punish France for its stance (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/6136201.htm)

Rumsfeld dismisses France and Germany as 'old Europe' (http://www.abc.net.au/am/s768388.htm)You are getting things a bit confused here. I'm talking about your legislators having an obsession about France. Joe Six-Pack thinks Paris is a town in Texas.

Congratulations. You've proved that Donald Rumsfeld is an idiot. Would you like your Nobel Prize now or later?

jjimm
01-23-2004, 09:19 AM
A cursory search pulled this (http://www.ncpa.org/pi/taxes/pd052699f.html) up, which states that US citizens pay more taxes per capita than anyone else in the world.You mean the same cite that says "U.S. taxpayer pay less as a proportion of their income than citizens of other developed countries"? :dubious:

Airman Doors, USAF
01-23-2004, 09:20 AM
What country that currently has a Universal Healthcare system Taxes at 75%?

I note that you guys are hung up on that 75% number, not even noting that I gave a range of 50%-75% per capita (which should be obvious, since a progressive taxation system will never have everyone paying that much in taxes). So let's try to be reasonable abut this, shall we?

So, is it your contention that no country in the EU with UHC has a taxation rate per capita within the range that I have described? :dubious:

Airman Doors, USAF
01-23-2004, 09:33 AM
Incidentally, we're taking away from the larger debate here, so I'd just like to state for the record that the point of all this is that I have no desire to bail out Social Security and at the same time pay for Universal Healthcare, despite the fact that the US has fairly low marginal taxation rates. Those rates will not stay low indefinitely, and it is a fairly common sentiment among the people over here that when the bill comes due we're looking at massive increases in taxation, which goes against the grain of everyone who pays taxes in the US. As it is, the Bush tax cut has had the direct effect of increasing the deficit dramatically, so it's pretty evident that the taxes are going to have to come up again.

I don't know why you guys think that I'm attacking you. If you like what you have, that's great. I'm not real keen on the future prospects here, though, that's all.

jjimm
01-23-2004, 09:40 AM
Hold on, Airman - did you read yojimbo's post: the top rate may indeed be something outrageous in the 50-75% band (looking up Sweden as we speak), but the taxes are in bands.

In Ireland (http://www.revenue.ie/): the first ~€6,600 you earn isn't taxed at all.
Anything you earn from €10,000 to €28,000 is taxed at 20%
Anything above €28,000 is taxed at 42%.

Thus it is mathematically impossible for anyone to pay 42% of their entire income (though if you're earning €1,000,000 per annum it's as good as 42%, but for ordinary Joe Soaps it's not).

Here's a comparative list (http://www1.worldbank.org/publicsector/tax/personalincometaxes.html) showing a few industrialized nations. Note that there is little correlation between national health services and taxation rates.

But I see your point about pensions - that's a headache everywhere.

Jackmannii
01-23-2004, 09:40 AM
I'm talking about your legislators having an obsession about France. Joe Six-Pack thinks Paris is a town in Texas.
Donald Rumsfeld is not a "legislator". And ever'body knows that Paris is in Kentucky.

In addition, Troy and Rome are in New York. Though no Americans think about that much either, especially at this time of year.

yojimbo
01-23-2004, 09:42 AM
I don't think anybody thinks you're attacking anyone.

You mentioned a total take from your wages of 50-75%.

You were merely asked by me any way what country takes 50-75% of your gross pay.

As you say it is a hijack so lets let it go.

TwistofFate
01-23-2004, 09:46 AM
Incidentally, we're taking away from the larger debate here, so I'd just like to state for the record that the point of all this is that I have no desire to bail out Social Security and at the same time pay for Universal Healthcare, despite the fact that the US has fairly low marginal taxation rates. Those rates will not stay low indefinitely, and it is a fairly common sentiment among the people over here that when the bill comes due we're looking at massive increases in taxation, which goes against the grain of everyone who pays taxes in the US. As it is, the Bush tax cut has had the direct effect of increasing the deficit dramatically, so it's pretty evident that the taxes are going to have to come up again.

I don't know why you guys think that I'm attacking you. If you like what you have, that's great. I'm not real keen on the future prospects here, though, that's all.


we're not seeing it as an attack, more a spreading of misinformation. You were the one that brought the 75% into the equation. Even from tyour cite the largest paid (in 2000 in france on a figure of 200,000 showed less than 55%. where did you get 75% from?

If you want to live in a society, you should be willing to pay for it.

PigArcher
01-23-2004, 11:06 AM
Come now. Who came up with "Freedom Fries"?
Come now yourself. Who cares? How does one isolated incident of anti-french spite prove "Conservative Hatred for Europe" is anything but a fantasy? It wasn't like conservatives were out in droves demanding McDonalds change their menu or something.

All the anti-French venom of 2003 sprang from the French refusal to ask "how high?" when Bush said "jump".
What anti-French venom? I remember seeing some bottles of wine getting dumped in the street (on tv), but that's about it. I see more anti-Frenchism on an average episode of Married... With Children. It's not like conservatives were firebombing French consulates or something.

Who angrily declared in his State of the Union speech that the US didn't need a permission slip from the UN to go to war when it saw fit?
What does this have to do with "Conservative Hatred for Europe"?

Dick Cheney made it quite clear to Secretary O'Neill: Divergent views are NOT welcome in the Bush cabinet. When questioning the rationale for yet another tax cut for the rich, O'Neill was told by Cheney that these cuts were due to the Republicans for winning the midterm elections. O'Neill's better judgement on tax policy was no more welcome to Bush & Cheney than Powell's better judgement on diplomacy.How many divergent views were allowed in the Clinton cabinet? How reliable of a source could O'Neill possibly be since he obviously has an axe to grind? Why is O'Neill's judgement inherently superior to everyone elses? Many people believe that tax cuts help the economy.

From The American Conservative , no less.

...But the question remains: why are the neocons so mad at Europe? The anti-Semitism that is allegedly swamping the Continent cannot be the answer, except in the minds of the more loopy Zionists. Nor can Europe’s supposed envy of the United States....

If Bush does not go to war, he loses face (and therefore votes). But if he stands and fights he risks losing the support of the 60 percent of Americans who do not believe that he has made the case for war. Some of us are wondering, therefore, whether he might not continue to procrastinate and, after cutting a relatively bloodless (but profitable) deal in the Middle East, declare a famous diplomatic victory. It is that possibility that goes some way to explaining why the neocons hate Europe. They do not want diplomatic victories. They want military victories. Some of them have been lusting after a war with Iraq since Sept. 12. Now they fear that Europe—or at least European and Third World voices within the UN—will somehow snatch it from them....
Again, how does this illustrate "Conservative Hatred for Europe"?

PigArcher
01-23-2004, 01:00 PM
Oh, and on the subject of nationalism in the US v. European countries, please read this article (http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html?http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/040122121843.shtml). It's about a Hungarian F1 driver who turned down $1.5M Euros in sponsorship from an Austrian company, because he wanted to "race in Formula One in Hungarian colours only." Meanwhile, here in the ultra-nationalistic US, Toyota is going to be racing in the American-as-apple-pie NASCAR truck series this season and there haven't been any rumblings, much less complaints or protests.

John Corrado
01-23-2004, 01:34 PM
Wow. What a complete trainwreck of a thread.

originally from BobLibDem
Come now. Who came up with "Freedom Fries"? All the anti-French venom of 2003 sprang from the French refusal to ask "how high?" when Bush said "jump". Who angrily declared in his State of the Union speech that the US didn't need a permission slip from the UN to go to war when it saw fit?

Uh-huh.

You do know that French-American relations began to go sour starting in the 1960's as de Gaulle pulled France away from the U.S. and Britain and began advocating France as the 'middle way' between the U.S. and U.S.S.R.? That tensions have always existed since then, because France wishes to prove itself a great power by leading the opposition to British and American actions? That France uses American culture as a bogeyman to help reinforce its cultural xenophobia? That the Simpsons reference to Frenchmen as "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" comes from a mid-90's episode?

'Cause they way you phrase it, you sound like you think that France-bashing was wholely invented by the Bush administration as a result of the Iraq War, which would be an extremely ignorant and ahistorical position.

Eolbo
01-25-2004, 12:32 AM
How conceited are the French and Germans to think they have more say in international politics than Spain, Poland, Italy, England, Slovakia, Hungaria, et al.?

Where's the conceit? They simply *do* have more say then most countries. They simply *do* have more power then Slovakia. I dont see the French and Germans begging for handouts from Eastern Europe. France has nuclear weapons, it has an ability to project force beyond its borders as its repeated African interventions demonstrate, it is a permanent member of the UN Security Council. And acting in concert with Germany they represent the third largest economy in the world. It wasnt Slovakian money that the US wanted for Iraqi reconstruction. Granted they arent a US league power, no one is, but they are a formidable force nonetheless.

Pepsi Classic
01-25-2004, 04:31 AM
Just one example:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/ac20011220.shtml

jjimm
01-25-2004, 04:53 AM
Found one for you, Pepsi Classic! Ben Shapiro (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/benshapiro/bs20030528.shtml) on the same site as the delightful Ms Coulter, slagging Europe off for liking politically amoral movies, rather than the wholesome morality of Bruce Almighty :rolleyes::Europe is loaded with cynicism. Europe is a continent ravaged by two world wars, plagued by appeasers and dictators, and immersed in socialism. Europeans lost the will to live the moral life long ago, and it shows in their foreign policy as much as it does in their movies.That's pretty mean I think - maybe in the realms of "hatred"?

London_Calling
01-25-2004, 05:16 AM
“Policy” in the singular ? Europe has at last 30 foreign policies; every country has it’s own - call me old fashioned but I believe that's the way these things work, even with the US. They’re often but not always similar and sometimes diametrically opposed (Iraq). And while the EU as an administrative body has a commissioner responsible for foreign policy objectives, it has no mandate or power – in relation to foreign policy all sovereign (nation) resides outside the ambit of, for example, the EU.

Indeed the US has at least as big a say as any single European nation (in what collective action a part of Europe could take - as per Kosovo) because of its role in NATO and/or as a permanent member (veto empowered) on the UN Security Council.

I don’t get this argument at all ?

Is it about France/Germany/several others not doing as its told when the empire wanted to conduct this Iraqi war of aggression ?

antechinus
01-25-2004, 07:49 AM
This, in a nutshell, is why many Americans dislike Europeans (even though I know you're an Aussie, antechinus).

Actually, it's mostly just France. The general arrogance and belief that they are the superior culture in the world - something that everyone should aspire to. And it's been that way for several hundred years now. Many Americans see it as Europeans (read: France) unable to let go and realize that they are no longer as influential as they used to be. Indeed, when many on the other side of the pond speak of "multilateralism" they essentially mean, "do what the French and Germans say" and is essentially a way for them to exert as much influence as possible.
/snip/
Conservatives still like visiting France.

What made you think I was referring to France? I was referring to protestant European countries like Sweden, Norway and the Netherlands. FYI, according to the study I cited, France is not as 'modern' as these countries.

Gee some people sure have a thing about France.

labmonkey
01-25-2004, 11:44 AM
Just one example:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/ac20011220.shtml

I actualy thought that was kind of funny. Does that make me a reactionary anti-franco bigot? When do I get my card? Is there a health plan?

Seriously though, Pepsi , is that you're evidece of the vast right wing conspiracy cunducted against EUer's by the vile American righties? An Ann-freaking-Coulter essay?

You guys in the aisle seats slay me.

The Flying Dutchman
01-25-2004, 01:14 PM
Flying in the face of this conservative American desire for political conformity is the European tradition of tolerance of and working with people of different ideology.

Lets see. Crete, Kosovo, Bosnia, Germany circa 1939,France late 18th century, and the Spanish Inquisition not to mention all the other religious conflicts.

And what about the numerous notices in the windows of pubs and shops I encountered in England when I lived there in 1975 prohibiting van dwellers (read Roma) from entering. Having conversed with quite a few new Canadians from various parts of Europe with regard to their attitude towards the Gypsies, I'll stack up what I know about the average conservative American tolerance for different ideologies against what I know about the average European any day.

Sleipner
01-25-2004, 04:00 PM
Sorry for this…

To all of you who think that a tax interval of 50-75% is ridicules. I want to say, yes it is, and I am part of such a system. This is what I pay here in Sweden,

Social security tax 30%
Employee’s fee 20%
Basic Income tax 32% in the interval 0 – 24000$
A progressive tax from 24000$ (luckily? my salary isn’t that high)

12% tax on basic food.
Almost 60% tax on gas.
25% tax for the rest.
30% interest tax.
The list goes on forever….


My salary before tax 30000$
30000*0.7*0.8*0.68 = 11424$

11424/30000 = 0.3808
1-0.3808 = 68% tax!!!!!
And I haven’t yet paid my bills (tax) or bought any food (tax) or basic products (tax)…

People have NO idea how much tax they are paying….

jjimm
01-25-2004, 04:31 PM
And what about the numerous notices in the windows of pubs and shops I encountered in England when I lived there in 1975 prohibiting van dwellers (read Roma) from entering. That was absolutely disgusting, I agree, and just a few years before there were signs on boarding houses in London that read "No blacks, no Irish, no dogs". Thankfully we have grown up since then, though there still is an awful lot of prejudice towards Roma still especially in Eastern Europe.

I should add, however, that scarcely more than 10 years prior to this, you guys had seperate drinking fountains for blacks and whites in the South, and Rosa Parks was told to give up her seat for a white man - and the rectifying of this situation was opposed by (small c) white conservatives, so your "stacking up" seems to be on slightly shaky ground.

GorillaMan
01-25-2004, 04:41 PM
Thankfully we have grown up since then

Really? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/3222321.stm

Kal
01-26-2004, 08:29 AM
Actually, you'll still see signs in the UK letting Romani folk and Travellers know they're not welcome. While you may sometimes find a blatent one they tend to be quite subtle so as not to draw the ire of the race relations people, but they're still around.

In Germany, pubs have developed a very clever way of keeping Sinti people out. On the menus outside the pub, they advertise that they sell horsemeat sausages and the like, regardless of if they do or not. The landlords have worked out that, in Romani culture, the horse is seen as being almost a sacred animal and that Romani folk won't enter a place where horsemeat is sold.

Cite (http://errc.org/rr_wint1998/snap8.shtml)

jjimm
01-26-2004, 08:35 AM
Really? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/3222321.stmNice selective pasting there... though there still is an awful lot of prejudice towards Roma

Neurotik
01-26-2004, 08:44 AM
What made you think I was referring to France? I was referring to protestant European countries like Sweden, Norway and the Netherlands. FYI, according to the study I cited, France is not as 'modern' as these countries.

Gee some people sure have a thing about France.
I didn't mean to imply that you were talking about France. I was talking about France. I just used your comment as a jumping off point. And I have no more ill feelings towards the French than I do towards any other group of people or government. They're all just doing what they feel they need to do.

I was just pointing out that many Americans don't have any issue with any European country except France really. All those more "modern" countries have no ire directed at them from most conservatives, except those few shrill, lunatic demagogues. And even then, they're usually using Europe as a euphamism for France and sometimes Germany and Belgium.

GorillaMan
01-26-2004, 09:31 AM
Nice selective pasting there...

Well, it seemed you were suggesting that the hatred of Roma has mostly died away in W Europe.....which I claim is not the case. Given the Express had a headline last week about the 'invasion' of Roma from new EU members....?