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Binarydrone
01-23-2004, 03:42 PM
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040126-578986,00.html] ( [url) High school girls to perform the Vagina Monologs[/url]

Have you guys heard about this? What do you think? I will admit that I have only a causal knowledge about the Vagina Monologs, but based on what, exactly, the school was thinking. I can not fathom a case where, even though the idea may have seemed good for one brief moment, that they thought that anything good could come of this.

Binarydrone
01-23-2004, 03:45 PM
Fixed link ( http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040126-578986,00.html) oh how I love it when my URLs are automatically parsed :rolleyes:

Necro Romancer
01-23-2004, 04:15 PM
High School girls faking orgasms? What bad could come from it?


...favorable description of sex between a 24-year-old woman and a 16-year-old woman...

Is it so fucking difficult to see why this isn't alright? Aside from it being illegal... Isn't there a law about compromising a minor's morals? Enough of this shit goes on in highschool; does it really need to be approved by the fucking school board? I pity this and the next generation of children to come out of Amherst.

Marley23
01-23-2004, 04:32 PM
Have you guys heard about this? What do you think? I will admit that I have only a causal knowledge about the Vagina Monologs, but based on what, exactly, the school was thinking. I can not fathom a case where, even though the idea may have seemed good for one brief moment, that they thought that anything good could come of this.
If you don't actually KNOW the show, Binary, I don't know how you can be up in arms about it. Shouldn't you actually know what you're complaining about?
Is it so fucking difficult to see why this isn't alright? Aside from it being illegal ... Isn't there a law about compromising a minor's morals?
Yes, but those laws pertain to ILLEGAL activities. Talking about something in a play isn't illegal.

Enough of this shit goes on in highschool; does it really need to be approved by the fucking school board?
Oh please. The schoolboard isn't approving of anything. That's like saying sex education in high school is the school board approving of kids having sex. It's a play, and in plays, characters do things regular people might be condemned for. Besides, any college freshman girl can do it, so is it really a big deal if high school girls do it?

That said: I have questions about the message of that monologue as well. But if memory serves, if you do a production of the show you are allowed to pick and choose from a larger body of monologues. You don't need to do them all, you can drop some. So omit that one and there's no problem. Likewise - and I'm NOT a big fan of the show - focusing on one monologue and ignoring everything else is bizarre to say the least.

"The girls who will be up there faking orgasms onstage wouldn't even be old enough to see When Harry Met Sally in the movie theater," fumes Amherst resident Larry Kelley, who read the play after he heard of the high school's plans.
This guy sounds like a real dim bulb. Does he really think the girls have never been exposed to this stuff before? A generation of girls who watch Christina Aguilera videos aren't going to care about When Harry Met Sally.

Homebrew
01-23-2004, 04:43 PM
Aside from it being illegal... Isn't there a law about compromising a minor's morals? Enough of this shit goes on in highschool; does it really need to be approved by the fucking school board? I pity this and the next generation of children to come out of Amherst.What is the age of consent in Mass.? As best as I can find on the internet, it's 16, so not illegal.

Binarydrone
01-23-2004, 04:56 PM
If you don't actually KNOW the show, Binary, I don't know how you can be up in arms about it. Shouldn't you actually know what you're complaining about?
I'm sorry, I don't think that I was clear here. I am not complaining about anything, nor am I up in arms about this. I simply came across this story and thought that it would make for an interesting subject of conversation. That you would read my OP this way seems to be jumping to conclusions.

At the very least, based on what I do know about this play, approving the production of the Vagina Monologs for underage high school girls is at best guarantied to cause national controversy. I am wondering at the motives for allowing this on the part of the School Board given how they know it must be destined to turn out.

As far as how appropriate this is in general, I don't think that I know about the play itself enough to judge yet. That said, from what I know it seems that this could be easily seen as sexualizing teenage girls, which is arguable not the best plan.

theR
01-23-2004, 05:00 PM
It doesn't matter if it is legal or not. People need to get a grip. Nobody complains about Shakespeare being performed despite the depiction of illegal activities like murder. Seriously, everyone who is flipping out about this is being ridiculous. More fucked up American culture -- depicting violence in extreme gory detail is a-ok, but depicting or talking about sex is evil.

Marley23
01-23-2004, 05:09 PM
I'm sorry, I don't think that I was clear here. I am not complaining about anything, nor am I up in arms about this. I simply came across this story and thought that it would make for an interesting subject of conversation. That you would read my OP this way seems to be jumping to conclusions.
Then I apologize for that. But you DID say "I can not fathom a case where, even though the idea may have seemed good for one brief moment, that they thought that anything good could come of this."
At the very least, based on what I do know about this play, approving the production of the Vagina Monologs for underage high school girls is at best guarantied to cause national controversy.
May I ask (NOT trying to be confrontational here) what you do know about the play? I suppose you can wonder about the motives, but the play is supposed to be somewhat controversial.

That said, from what I know it seems that this could be easily seen as sexualizing teenage girls, which is arguable not the best plan.
I'd like to see an answer to the previous question. But there are characters of all ages, including the sixteen-year-old and a woman around 80. The fact that the play TALKS about sex and vaginas, and yes, includes an orgasm or two, doesn't mean it's necessarily sexualizing teenaged girls. Wait, we're worried about sexualizing teenaged girls? It's too late for that anyway. :p

Slugworth
01-23-2004, 05:14 PM
It doesn't matter if it is legal or not. People need to get a grip. Nobody complains about Shakespeare being performed despite the depiction of illegal activities like murder. Seriously, everyone who is flipping out about this is being ridiculous. More fucked up American culture -- depicting violence in extreme gory detail is a-ok, but depicting or talking about sex is evil.
To be fair, it's a lot easier to see a younger person being influenced by sexual content than violent content - We have natural urges towards one, and an instilled avoidance towards the other.

Do I think the Vagina Monologues will fire a Highschool-wide orgy of Sodom & Gamorrah scope? No, but I'm not comfortable with the idea anyway. I definitely think it could do more harm than Hamlet. Sexual experimentation is a lot more likely than a poison-tipped sword fight.

Horatio Hellpop
01-23-2004, 05:22 PM
I've never seen Vagina Monologues live; I saw a taped performance in Cinemax last year and I hear it's not as good as a live performance. Still, I have a pretty good idea of the show's content and the intent behind it.

There's nothing in there that a contemporary teenaged girl shouldn't see, and by extension, perform onstage. Few people find the show prurient by any stretch. The show basically reflects real life as many (if not most) women experience it, and 16 is a little old to be kept in a Disney candyland where the performing arts are concerned. Any parent who feels differently has every right and opportunity to keep their daughters out of the production.

Dryga_Yes
01-23-2004, 05:28 PM
To be fair, it's a lot easier to see a younger person being influenced by sexual content than violent content - We have natural urges towards one, and an instilled avoidance towards the other.Because God knows we can't have high school kids having sex!

:confused:

lee
01-23-2004, 05:56 PM
Actually there are people who complain about high schoolers doing or reading Shakespeare because of its portrayal of immoral and illegal activities. Most people ignore these people.

When I was in highschool, one of the drama coaches censored even plays written for adolescents. She condemned any play that would have an adolescent portraying adult activities, or engaging in any even quesitonable acitivites, including asking questions that might make one think about sex. She rejected a play because two characters were married adults and they kissed on stage. She did not want any adult characters in the plays at all. There are several words for her, crackpot being the kindest one I can think of.

Having seen the Vagina Monologs, I think it would be a good highschool play. The sets are easy. How well it goes depends on the on acting and directing rather on fancy costumes and superfluous extranea. The scenes can be extracted for competitions, which is a nice bonus.

Binarydrone
01-24-2004, 01:53 PM
Then I apologize for that. But you DID say "I can not fathom a case where, even though the idea may have seemed good for one brief moment, that they thought that anything good could come of this."

May I ask (NOT trying to be confrontational here) what you do know about the play? I suppose you can wonder about the motives, but the play is supposed to be somewhat controversial.


I'd like to see an answer to the previous question. But there are characters of all ages, including the sixteen-year-old and a woman around 80. The fact that the play TALKS about sex and vaginas, and yes, includes an orgasm or two, doesn't mean it's necessarily sexualizing teenaged girls. Wait, we're worried about sexualizing teenaged girls? It's too late for that anyway. :p
Fair questions all. I have seen snippets of the play on video, but not enough to make any kind of judgment on the appropriateness of having it as a high school play. I do know that it deals with sexuality in a frank way, which is always bound to create controversy, especially in a school setting.

I guess that my main take is that (if for no other reason than the fact that the word "vagina" is in the title) this play in the current setting is bound to be controversial. Given that schools in general are more or less under siege (consider the explosive controversy surrounding even teaching safer sex), it seems odd to me that a school board would even entertain the notion of approving this.

Daikona
01-24-2004, 04:16 PM
I saw a production of this when I was in college.

While I remember thinking it was phenomenally overrated, I can't remember anything in it that was something the average high school student was going to be "corrupted" by.

A large portion of the students involved were freshmen, which means they weren't much older than the high school students in this. And this stuff was pretty tame compared to some of the stuff that's normal for music videos and the like.

Treviathan
01-24-2004, 04:55 PM
From Kelley:

"But it isn't the orgasms or even the use of the C word that gets me. Rather, it's the favorable description of sex between a 24-year-old woman and a 16-year-old woman. This is inappropriateness squared for high school students."

If Kelley "read" the play, as he claims he has, then I'm in possession of kitchen appliances with better reading comprehension skills. The narrator of the piece he finds so "inappropriate" relates the above story after reading off a virtual laundry list of men that have assaulted and abused her ever since childhood. Her sexual experience with the twenty-four year old - who, horror of horrors, is someone of the same gender - is the first time she's able to view herself as an autonomous, lovable person instead of an object for the gratification of men.

No shit the experience is portrayed in a favourable manner. It should be. If that's the portion of the scene that Kelly finds so bloody offensive, it says a great deal more about his own twisted morals than the worthiness of the play itself.

monstro
01-24-2004, 05:15 PM
The play is a good one for teenagers to see. It gives them exposure to mature material in a safe, educating atmosphere.

The assigned reading in most English classes is more graphic than the Vagina Monologues.

People need to grow up.

Nightime
01-24-2004, 05:41 PM
The narrator of the piece he finds so "inappropriate" relates the above story after reading off a virtual laundry list of men that have assaulted and abused her ever since childhood. Her sexual experience with the twenty-four year old - who, horror of horrors, is someone of the same gender - is the first time she's able to view herself as an autonomous, lovable person instead of an object for the gratification of men.


I don't think the problem he had was with them being of the same gender, but rather with one of them being 24 and the other only 16.

Presumably the same people would have objected to a play that portrayed a sexual relationship between a 24 year old guy and a 16 year old girl in a favorable light.

Personally, I don't see a problem with it, as it is a play. There is no *actual* sex between 24 year olds and 16 year olds during the play, just as there are no actual suicides during a performance of Romeo and Juliet.

Gomez
01-24-2004, 05:56 PM
I personally have nothing against the school approving performances of The Vagina Monologues. This seems like a really progressive school. Heck, I'm looking forward to their planned stage adaptation of American Psycho and 100 days of Sodom.

Gomez
01-24-2004, 06:05 PM
P.S. - I stress this is only my opinion but every time I've seen The Vagina Monologues I've come out of the theater mentally drawing up plans for a time machine so I can get those 3 hours of my life back and use them for something more productive and entertaining like repeatedly cleansing my sinuses with drano.

IMO, it's a dull and uninspired show with little educational benefit and I think the students time would be put to far better use performing one of the countless thousands of classic plays which would expand their minds and help develop a wider interest in the theater.

Art Barber
01-24-2004, 11:42 PM
Think all feminists love this play? Think again...

http://www.bettydodson.com/vdayvmonologues.htm (http://)

Art

Art Barber
01-24-2004, 11:44 PM
Oops....

Betty Dodson (http://www.bettydodson.com/vdayvmonologues.htm)

Art

Marley23
01-25-2004, 12:20 AM
Think all feminists love this play? Think again...
Who said that? I know feminists who don't love it, and I think they have many legitimate complaints. I'm a guy and I acted in the show last year, and I don't love it by any stretch.

Netbrian
01-25-2004, 03:26 AM
I think the students time would be put to far better use performing one of the countless thousands of classic plays which would expand their minds and help develop a wider interest in the theater.

Might I reccomend the Lysistrata? That's very definately a play that'd generate wider-interest in theater, and is most certainly a classic.

Zoe
01-25-2004, 05:20 AM
Gomez: ...every time I've seen The Vagina Monologues I've come out of the theater mentally drawing up plans for a time machine so I can get those 3 hours of my life back and use them for something more productive and entertaining like repeatedly cleansing my sinuses with drano.

Gomez, I think that everyone reading your post probably immediately found a solution to your ennui.

I really like The Vagina Monologs and I wish they had been around in the early 1960's. If some find them helpful now, more power to them! I don't see exactly what harm they can cause. They encourage young women to be at ease with womanhood and the words used to describe their genitalia -- including those words which have been considered vulgar. They encourage women to talk about their sexuality -- all kinds of experiences.

No one is being forced to participate or view the production. It doesn't require a lot of money to produce. What is there to complain about?

The young woman who had the idea of putting the production together said that the real reward has been the process. Even if the presentation were cancelled now by some coward who believes that education should always avoid controversy, much good has already come from it.

Avenger
01-25-2004, 06:08 AM
I have seen a production of the Vagina Monologues and read it also (and anyone who hasn't is really not in a position to comment) and found it positive, life affirming and thought-provoking.

The school should make it compulsary for every pupil, female and male, to watch this production.

gex gex
01-25-2004, 07:34 AM
Can someone help me out here? What's the problem? Are any girls being forced to take parts in the play? Are the people complaining being forced to watch it? What exactly is getting everyone so upset?

originally posted by Slugworth
Do I think the Vagina Monologues will fire a Highschool-wide orgy of Sodom & Gamorrah scope? No, but I'm not comfortable with the idea anyway. I definitely think it could do more harm than Hamlet. Sexual experimentation is a lot more likely than a poison-tipped sword fight.
It's not just a poison-tipped sword fight. How about the vulgar language ("Do you think I meant country matters?" [III.ii.111])? How about the assault on traditional values ("I say we will have no more marriages" [III.i.150])? How about the contemplation of suicide [III.i.58-90] (a serious problem for teens today)? How about the ridiculing of one's elders and parental figures (Hamlet's mother is stupid and deceived; Hamlet's uncle is an usurper and murderer; Polonius is a doddering old fool, overly pleased with his own advice, and a snoop). How about portrayal of the supernatural (Hamlet's father appears as a ghost)? And who is to say that children won't internalise the violence of the play, using fighting (not, necessarily in the form of lethal fencing) as a solution to their problems - surely we don't want to encourage gang warfare in our teens!

All this makes women talking about their pink bits seem like a walk in the park. I cannot believe you would propose corrupting innocent children with filth like Shakespeare.

tomndebb
01-25-2004, 01:23 PM
From the news story:Conservative critics like Fox News's Bill O'Reilly have joined local residents in assailing the school board's decision.
. . .
At a town-hall meeting last week on the controversy, opponents of The Vagina Monologues were outnumbered by supporters.So O'Reilly goes on record, once more, that he is a knee-jerk ass and the people of Amherst stand up for intelligent discussion in education.

What an uplifting news story!

Treviathan
01-25-2004, 02:39 PM
I don't think the problem he had was with them being of the same gender, but rather with one of them being 24 and the other only 16.

Well, I think by using the word "woman" twice he's calling extra attention to the fact that it's a same-sex relationship, but you've got a point. It's probably a little from column A, a little from column B.

As a slight hijack, I find it funny that whereas women have The Vagina Monologues as a frank, introspective look at female sexuality, we men are basically stuck with Puppetry of the Penis. :)

Gomez
01-25-2004, 02:39 PM
Gomez, I think that everyone reading your post probably immediately found a
solution to your ennui.


Well, maybe everyone who likes the Vagina Monologues, but everyone who shares my opinion that it's dull, uninspired and trite probably got a giggle out of it.


Even if the presentation were cancelled now by some coward who believes that education should always avoid controversy, much good has already come from it.


Absolutely lovely. However, call me old fashioned but I believe more good would come out of studying and performing a play which was a recognised classic of literature. Education shouldn't always avoid controversy but at the very least it should strive to be educational.

Marley23
01-25-2004, 02:46 PM
What exactly is a recognized classic? The fact that past generations like it doesn't mean it teaches much of anything... when I was in high school, Dickens resulted in UNIVERSAL boredom among the students. I'm still not a fan. We'd have probably been much more interested in something that related to contemporary life.

GorillaMan
01-25-2004, 02:48 PM
However, call me old fashioned but I believe more good would come out of studying and performing a play which was a recognised classic of literature. Education shouldn't always avoid controversy but at the very least it should strive to be educational.

Why does it have to present 'the classics' to be educational? Reminds me of the criticism of English exam papers tending towards the "This Shakespeare play is a work of genius because..." type question.

Wouldn't it be highly instructive if the girls involved were able to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the play they're performing?

SPOOFE
01-25-2004, 02:55 PM
Once one gets past the initial "Ooh, she said vagina!" novelty of the play, one can see that it's mostly trite, feel-good stories. A couple of gems are strewn here and there, but that's mostly because they're pieces that can give an actor a lot of room to work with (I saw the most awesome performance of Reclaiming Cunt the first time I saw the show).

However, it's an interesting show to work on, at least once, and I see nothing inappropriate about the material.

Reader99
01-25-2004, 05:55 PM
The thing to remember about this "play" is that it is nothing but a series of readings by one or several actresses who simply sit on stools and talk. The readings are about a variety of women's experiences ranging from sexual encounters to violence to medical problems, but NO sexual activity of any kind (or any other action, for that matter) is depicted or implied. The content is about as offensive as the average big-city daily newspaper, and there is nothing in it that wouldn't be suitable for high school girls. (It might do the boys some good to hear it too.)

Malacandra
01-26-2004, 05:40 AM
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040126-578986,00.html] ( [url) High school girls to perform the Vagina Monologs[/url]

Have you guys heard about this? What do you think? I will admit that I have only a causal knowledge about the Vagina Monologs, but based on what, exactly, the school was thinking. I can not fathom a case where, even though the idea may have seemed good for one brief moment, that they thought that anything good could come of this.

You caused the VM???

I was amused to read in "Private Eye" 's column about Fleet Street of an editor who is so fond of using the C-word that his motivational speeches have become known as the "Vagina Monologues" :D

gex gex
01-26-2004, 06:25 AM
originally posted by Reader99
The thing to remember about this "play" is that it is nothing but a series of readings by one or several actresses who simply sit on stools and talk.
How is this so? A director can direct a monologue however he or she wants to. What about the play restricts its action to stools?

I'd be disappointed if a director didn't look for other ways of presenting the material. Even a high school drama student knows you don't perform a monologue by sitting there and speaking it.

Reader99
01-26-2004, 07:45 PM
The actresses are not portraying characters in a drama or reciting lines that further the action on stage. They are reading excerpts from about 200 interviews that the playwright conducted with women of varying ages and backgrounds about their sexuality, their feelings about their bodies and their life experiences. Some of the monologues might include responses to one question by several women (favorite words for genitals, for example), or different thoughts on one subject. Typically the performers hold scripts in-hand, which has allowed big-name stars and non-actress celebrities to appear in the show for a few days at a time: they don't have to memorize lines or movement. Even the playwright, Eve Ensler, performed her own show with the script on a music stand in front of her. The performers are certainly free to read their lines energetically and enthusiastically, but it would be distracting if they started bouncing around the stage. This isn't Shakespeare. Not everybody has liked the show. Some reviewers have found it overrated, even silly. Some don't like the political perspective. But with respect to the original question, it is ONLY words. High school girls are not being asked/directed to take their clothes off or simulate sexual activity on stage. The cheerleaders at a football game probably do a racier show.

http://www.aislesay.com/WA-VAGINA.html
http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/06.05.03/vagina-0323.html
http://www.kdhx.org/reviews/vagina_monologues0301.html
http://www.star.niu.edu/features/vagina_monologues/
http://www.portlandmercury.com/2002-01-03/theater.html
http://my.en.com/~herone/Vagina.html
http://www.bcheights.com/news/2002/01/15/ArtsReview/Vagina.Monologues.Returns.To.Boston-163683.shtml

Loopydude
01-26-2004, 10:53 PM
I told my wife about this. She has seen the VM, and also happens to stage high school plays on occasion (all Shakespeare).

Her only objection to Amherst HS putting on the VM? "It's really kind of a shitty play...I'm sorry but listening to some ditz say cuuuuuuuUUUUnnnnt over and over was just fucking stupid."

So there you go.

Evil Captor
01-27-2004, 08:12 AM
Booooooring.

Astra
01-27-2004, 11:55 AM
On a related note, the president of Loyola University in New Orleans just banned a drama group from performing this play on campus - because of the "language."

I've never actually seen it, but shutting down a play because of "language" in a college environment just seems a bit ridiculous to me. Not to mention that students weren't complaining about the play, only the administration had an issue with it.

Abbynormalguy
01-29-2004, 01:17 PM
The Vagina Monologues are the culmination of many years of research by one woman (her name eludes me at the moment though). She's spoken to many women, young and old, about their sexuality.

If you think that high school boys and girls know nothing about sex, especially when they are 16 or older, then you are sadly mistaken (unless the kids are home-schooled, which is another thing altogether).

What the Monologues do is allow women to recognize their sexuality and to take it for what it is. It does not promote promiscuity or anything like that; quite the opposite, it portrays a woman's vagina as something that is so special, so sacred that it should only be used with someone that the woman really cares about.

(How do I know about this, especially when I'm a guy, you ask? I have seen the Monologues performed at my university several times and even wrote a piece for the Monologues last year. The format for the Monologues allows for user-created input)

Marley23
01-29-2004, 03:22 PM
I was one of the guys who did that, too, abbynormalguy. Where you at?

The name of the woman is Eve Ensler.

TheHouse87
01-29-2004, 07:11 PM
Honestly, can the Schools' staff become any more controlling? They were kids once also, they hopefully still remember the kind of things us teens go through. Sexuality is our entertainment, and for most is one of the most curious and unknown things. Also, wtf is with all of these kids that are clueless about sex?! Are parents just getting lazy, or is it just me? Sheesh, sex ed. isn't the end of the world but it's pretty pathetic when kids come to school and have never heard of it. If you can work up the balls to have sex, you should be able to work up the balls to tell your kid what it is when the time comes. Now, back to the pervious statement about Highschools. Yeah, they teach sex ed. (most of them), great. When they teach it, if their teachers doing all the teaching are acting like its funny and having a good time teaching it, and the kids are having a good time learning it and aren't uncomfortable, then why is it so evil for them to have curiousity about it? What is the world coming to, honestly...

Loopydude
01-29-2004, 07:31 PM
My wife's derision of the VM just gets funnier with eash passing comment.

"Let the cat go outside...I need to liberate my pussy."

Had to share.

Scylla
01-29-2004, 08:04 PM
I happen to think the Vagina monologues are the worst form of activism they don't stand on their own, and I'm resentful of the agenda which is to coopt Valentines day. I think the portrayal of men is terrible. I think it's boring, and false and wrong, sends a bad message etc etc etc.

That being said, I beleive that any school public or private, and administrators or teachers or students that wish to portray it, have every right to do so. Furthermore, they should be free to do so without fear of backlash or constraint.

Marley23
01-29-2004, 10:31 PM
I happen to think the Vagina monologues are the worst form of activism they don't stand on their own, and I'm resentful of the agenda which is to coopt Valentines day.
The horror, the horror. Co-opting Valentine's Day. :rolleyes: I'm not sure what 'they don't stand on their own' means.

I think the portrayal of men is terrible. I think it's boring, and false and wrong, sends a bad message etc etc etc.
I think you've not seen the play, or went with your mind made up etc etc etc. There are some men who come off badly, and others have wonderful things said about them.

vasyachkin
01-30-2004, 01:09 AM
i see nothing wrong with it.

why doesn't anybody get pissed off if they perform hamlet ? after all, murder is illegal.

SPOOFE
01-30-2004, 10:42 PM
I think the portrayal of men is terrible.
What, specifically, about the "portrayal of men" in the show do you think is so questionable?

Scylla
01-30-2004, 10:47 PM
The whole violent molesting raping thing, and how most of the vaginas suffered from men, and most of the vaginas were talking about how they'd been hurt by men.

It's been a while, but I'm sure I didn't imagine this when I saw it. If you'd like me to be more specific with examples can you get me an online link?

Scylla
01-30-2004, 11:02 PM
The horror, the horror. Co-opting Valentine's Day. :rolleyes:

Well, it's not exactly the holocaust, I agree. But that doesn't make it a good thing.

I'm not sure what 'they don't stand on their own' means.

The show has no artistic quality outside of its activist value, IMO. It's contrived, embarassingly obvious and awkward.


I think you've not seen the play, or went with your mind made up etc etc etc. There are some men who come off badly, and others have wonderful things said about them.

Well, in all fairness, you may be right. I had a real chip on my shoulder when I saw it, I'm afraid. I expected it to be a piece of activist junk that would beat up on men.

That doesn't mean that's not what it was. At the very least it failed to win me over, and I thought the first person vagina perspective was pretty ludicrous and poorly pulled off in the version I saw at Wilson College. I concede that expectations probably colored my perceptions, but even throught that filter I just thought it sucked on many levels.

I rode Toni Morrison's Song of Solomon with similarly ugly preconceptions and found it to be one of the finest books I've ever read. Violence against women as a subject is not exactly a new idea for literature and there really are so many great pieces of literature out there dealing with the subject that there's little excuse for VM.