Does HIV really lead to AIDS or is it the pills that shut down the Immune System

[AsherElite]

I once read a report that has been on the internet for some time. it said that AIDS did not come from HIV it self but from the pills and the things they do to you when you take them. these pills, i forget the name of it but witch is suposed to shut down your immue system instead. as i type this im looking for this txt but am haveing a hard time finding it. i might not make much sence but trust me its out there... any words?

[AsherElite]

AIDS:
The Great Con Trick
by David Icke

Copyrighted article removed - DrMatrix

[captainQwark]

I'd love for this to be true, but my skeptic sense is tingling.

[AsherElite]

did u read the report or just my first post?

[Moirai]

Asher, you may be young, so I'll be gentle- don't believe everything you read on the Internet. I could post that I fucked your grandpa, but that doesn't make it true.

The report you quoted sounds very fishy and has probably been denounced by Snopes or someone similar as untrue. And you will probably be hearing from a number of posters about it shortly. Did you pack an asbestos jock, by any chance? Just kidding, this is not the forum for flaming so you're probably safe, but be prepared for strong words and stronger cites.

[Saltire]

His hypothesis seems to imply that the only people who are treated for HIV infection with AZT should end up with AIDS. How then does he explain all the people who got AIDS before AZT treatment was the standard? How to account for the millions in Africa with AIDS who probably have never heard of AZT?

In short, this guy is in major denial, making up reasons why this horrible disease remains incurable.

[AndrewL]

I'm sure that if you check in Great Debates, you'll find this has been discussed repeatedly.

I don't think anyone here was impressed with the claims of the AZT-causes-AIDS folks.

[Telemark]

First, contact a moderator to have them remove the copyrighted article you posted and replace it with a link to the site where you found it.

Second, do a quick search of Great Debates, where this was thoroughly hashed out in the past month or so. People who understand this area of science intimately are uniform in their conclusion that this theory is bunk and has been eliminated by current data and research.

[AsherElite]

well i do understand that this is probley false but you just never know. I did think about the people in Africa and how they have no treatment and there for still get AIDS. I really dont care if i get flamed for such a post of this but it is very intresting isnt it. even if its way out the window its something to think about...i have tons of stuff i wanna write on here but now im not so sure...what do you all think?

[AsherElite]

well i do understand that this is probley false but you just never know. I did think about the people in Africa and how they have no treatment and there for still get AIDS. I really dont care if i get flamed for such a post of this but it is very intresting isnt it. even if its way out the window its something to think about...i have tons of stuff i wanna write on here but now im not so sure...what do you all think?

[AsherElite]

well i do understand that this is probley false but you just never know. I did think about the people in Africa and how they have no treatment and there for still get AIDS. I really dont care if i get flamed for such a post of this but it is very intresting isnt it. even if its way out the window its something to think about...i have tons of stuff i wanna write on here but now im not so sure...what do you all think?
thats another reason i posted this, to see what other people thought

[Papermache Prince]

Would that be this David Ickes (http://www.davidicke.com/)?The reptilian and other entities, which are manipulating our world by possessing "human" bodies, operate in frequencies between the Third and Fourth densities. These are referred to as "hidden spaces and planes unknown to man", in the apparently ancient Emerald Tablets, which I quote from in "Children of the Matrix". For simplicity, I refer to this "between world" in my books as the lower fourth dimension.

[AsherElite]

sorry about those repost's this forum is going slow

[DrMatrix]

AsherElite,

Please don't quote entire copyrighted articles here.

I've removed the article from your second post in this thread. Please post just a few lines or paraphrase the article and provide a link.

DrMatrix - GQ Moderator

[AsherElite]

alrighty , my bad !

[Smeghead]

well i do understand that this is probley false but you just never know. I did think about the people in Africa and how they have no treatment and there for still get AIDS. I really dont care if i get flamed for such a post of this but it is very intresting isnt it.

How is it interesting when it's demonstrably false? Use some critical thinking skills, here.

[trabi]

Asher, David Icke (http://www.publiceye.org/Icke/IckeBackgrounder.htm) is a well-known lunatic from Britain. You can safely disregard anything he tells you...

[panache45]

well i do understand that this is probley false but you just never know.
Yes, you DO know. It's false.

You can't just accept, even half-heartedly, any bizarre idea that comes along, based on the assumption that "you just never know."

[Broomstick]

well i do understand that this is probley false but you just never know. I did think about the people in Africa and how they have no treatment and there for still get AIDS. I really dont care if i get flamed for such a post of this but it is very intresting isnt it. even if its way out the window its something to think about...i have tons of stuff i wanna write on here but now im not so sure...what do you all think?

I worked at a drug rehab clinic in both before and after AZT became available for HIV treatment. Our patient population was running about 20% HIV infected.

Pre-AZT, they pretty much died withint two years of diagnosis.

Post-AZT, they started living longer. Like, 5 years longer, with fewer infections and better overall quality of life.

Case closed, as far as I'm concerned.

And, oh yes - the pregnant folks when from passing on HIV 30% of the time to their kids pre-AZT to passing it on only about 5% of the time post-AZT. In other words, pre-AZT one out of 3 kids born to an infected woman had HIV, and they usually died before they were 4. Post-AZT, only one in 20 were infected, and many of those kids have graduated high school and college now.

BIG difference.

The jerks who spread pernicious lies like "AZT kills" are themselves the killers, resulting in more infections and infected people dying sooner than they have to. I'll stop now, because anything more wlil get me tossed into the Pit.

[jjimm]

What mystifies me about David Icke is not that he's totally and utterly bonkers in the nut (he used to be a TV sports reporter, then went to Canada for a while and came back telling everyone to wear turquoise, etc.), but that he actually attracts people who agree with him. :confused:

[smiling bandit]

Aren't they so cute when they're young? Awwww...

:)

[Russ1978]

Actually David Icke used to be a football division 1 goalkeeper i think in the early 80`s, then began work as a football pun befrore writing the most incredibly insane book called I think 'The Light Experience' in which he wrote in all seriousness that he is an angel sent to earth by god. It should be somewhere so look it up on google. Therefore anything this guy says is very interesting just to see how nutty some people can really let themselves go.

[Russ1978]

My mistake the book is actually called 'In The Light Of Experience'.

[edwino]

We've done this two times in recent memory. I didn't read the David Icke article specifically, but it is probably a rehash of all of the HIV/AIDS denialist stuff out there already. Unfortunately I cannot get the search function to behave correctly and I cannot find the links. Perhaps they have not finished parsing the old threads into the search engine yet.

The virusmyth guys are kind of the ringleaders of the whole thing. They have a typical conspiracy website -- arguments from authority which consist mainly of out-of-context quotes, data cited which doesn't support their hypotheses, bad studies, outdated research and old theories, bad science, and other wackiness. In at least one of those threads which I promise I will cite if the search engine behaves, a few other posters and I laid ground conditions for debate: we would only debate the papers in the scientific literature.

There are thousands of different scientific journals. One can find a voice for just about anything in the literature, and the denialist folks have published many times in many journals. Many of these are letters to the editors and reviews, but there are some primary peer-reviewed papers. Critically analyzing the data in these papers puts the nail in the coffin of the denialist argument. They make really awful logical mistakes in their reasoning: one typical example is they link HIV rates to drug infection by showing how a graph of the number of AIDS patients by year resembles a graph of the number of heroin addicts by year. Well, as most scientists (and non-scientists) can tell you, correlation is not causation. Furthermore, many curves look very similar, for instance personal computer usage.

The graph thing is only one of their logical leaps. I clearly remember a table published that was the centerpiece of one of their papers. They took 20 or so people who were HIV+ and convinced them never to take antiretrovirals, attempting to show that these people never develop AIDS. Looking at the list of clinical outcomes, well over half were either dead from AIDS, had developed AIDS, or had CD4+ counts hovering around 200 (below which one develops AIDS with an opportunistic infection). Most of the others had been diagnosed as HIV+ under 10 years before, and one doesn't necessarily expect to see clinical manifestations in that timeline.

What no virusmyth person can ever deny is the efficacy of highly active antiretroviral therapy or HAART. This usually consists of two drugs like AZT -- polymerase inhibitors, plus one of a new class of drugs called HIV protease inhibitors. This has been the standard of HIV therapy in the US since protease inhibitors hit the market in 1996. And they work incredibly well. People with full-blown AIDS get up out of their sickbeds to go to work. CD4+ counts rise from nothing to normal. HIV viral loads become undetectable. Since the protease inhibitors were specifically designed to inhibit the HIV protease, there are no other plausible mechanisms for HAART's actions other than against HIV. Once one of them comes up with a legitimate argument, then we can start a new debate.

In short, it is crap. Don't believe it. Wear your jimmy hat and use clean needles.

[Derleth]

well i do understand that this is probley false but you just never know. I think you're a killer.

I think that's probably false, but you just never know.

Therefore, off to the gas chamber with you!

[Guinastasia]

AsherElite, David Icke believes that the world is controlled by the Royal family of the U.K., who he claims are not human, but a species of shape-shifting lizards. As Dave Barry would say, I am not making this up.

I think that should tell you something about this man's credibility.

[istara]

David Icke
David Icke is a complete joke in the UK. He gave up a successful career as a sports commentator to wear a turquoise tracksuit and claim he was the Son of God. He preached that turquose and pink were the colours of peace/love, and went on well respected talkshows where he was pretty much ridiculed. I remember that he later retracted everything, saying had made a mistake. More info on him here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke).

He is widely regarded as a total wacko and certainly the last person to heed when seeking medical advice. The tragedy for people like David Icke is that they may indeed stumble across genuine conspiracy theories and government-suppressed truths. But after years of crying wolf (or in this case, reptile men) they have even less chance of being believed than the the prophet Cassandra.

[boofy_bloke]

Even without knowing the figures that other posters have quoted, you can answer this question by using the old "chicken or the egg" trick: Which came first, AIDS or AIDS treatments?

If AIDS came first then the treatments can't be the cause. If the treatments came first then why would anyone be taking them?

[choosybeggar]

Even without knowing the figures that other posters have quoted, you can answer this question by using the old "chicken or the egg" trick: Which came first, AIDS or AIDS treatments?

If AIDS came first then the treatments can't be the cause. If the treatments came first then why would anyone be taking them?

The deniers believe that illicit drug use plays a role too. That's their chicken (or egg, I'm not sure which).

[labmonkey]

This OP is a great illustration of why critical thinking classes should be required in high school. IMHO tax money much better spent than on petty squabbles over whether or not to require Hebrew creation myth in biology class. Ugh.