Rape in Hentai... a big fat WTF?

[cainxinth]

This could be in GD but given the subject matter I thought I’d drop here.

Generally speaking I’m not anti pornography. I put it in the same league as cigarettes, big macs, and gambling; enjoyable every now and again, but unhealthy if you overindulge. However...

While trolling through kazaa for some good, wholesome fuck flicks I happened across a clip from a Japanese animated porn (Hentai) called “Bible Black.” It was too disturbing for words. School kids were raping their teachers, hermaphrodites were raping pregnant women, it was just fucking wrong in every way possible.

We all have our fetishes, but I don’t see why anyone should be allowed to make a buck off of degenerates who get off on rape, even if it is just animated. I don’t want get all preachy here, but what the fuck? Why does the Japanese government allow this shit, and more importantly why are the Japanese watching rape movies?

[Tentacle Monster]

Maybe, just maybe, this could explain why Japan has a much lower incidence of actual rape than the US. The actual production of rape hentai involves zero (0) actual women being raped. And the person who buys the rape hentai and beats off to it is only raping one thing: his hand. Or whatever he's masturbating with. Even with live action, the actress is -surprise!- only acting.

Why are the Japanese watching rape movies? Guess what? People EVERYWHERE are doing it. The sexual degenerate is a person in your neighborhood, a person in your neighborhood... You wouldn't believe what people get turned on by, and rape, incredible as it might sound, probably isn't the worst thing a person could get aroused by. Don't believe me? Google for Waita Uziga sometime.

Why does the Japanese government allow it? Perhaps they'd rather have some of those degenerates spending their nights at home with a bottle of lotion (handful of bacon, or whatever) and a rape flick than having them out on the streets actually trying to rape women.

Yes, here's Tentacle Monster defending hentai rape.

[scr4]

Why does the Japanese government allow this shit
I don't know, but I would point out that the American government allows video stores to sell and rent the exact same videos, and usually much more openly. I was surprised to see adult titles in the "anime" section of some American video stores instead of the small room behind the curtain. I don't see tentacle porn videos at Tsutaya (Japanese equivalent of Blockbusters), not even in the adult section.

more importantly why are the Japanese watching rape movies?
Some Japanese people watch rape movies, for the same reasons that some Americans watch them.

[Gadfly]

Beautiful rebuttal, Tentacle Monster.

[Tentacle Monster]

Thanks, Gadfly. Just thought I was the best one for the job.

please tell me you didn't google for Waita Uziga.

[Darkhold]

I'm a big fan of Anime (and to my shame the occasional Hentai) and believe me the things you see in Bible Black are a drop in the bucket compared to some other hentai. For me it went to disturbing to stupid to indifference back to disturbing again. Whenever I think that I've seen the limit there's always something else around the corner.

I'd guess it's in part to the censorship laws in Japan that forbids them to show genitalia if you can't see the 'action' so to speak you have to spice up the video somewhere else. Rape, bondage, incest, pedophilia and bukkue (sp?) seems to be the solutions to this.

As for how it effects people I'd have to give it the standard answer for all porn. Kids shouldn't see it. Disturbed people that will use this to fuel their fantasy into action shouldn't see it (of course there's no way to determine who that is before hand). Adults that know the difference between actors/drawings can watch whatever gets their rocks off.

[OneChance]

Maybe, just maybe, this could explain why Japan has a much lower incidence of actual rape than the US.So you're saying that rape in Japan has dropped off since Hentai rape was introduced? Do you have any information to back that up?

[SnoopyFan]

Maybe, just maybe, this could explain why Japan has a much lower incidence of actual rape than the US.

Right. I don't suppose it has anything to do with Japanese prisons being hell on earth.

[cainxinth]

Before I make my rebuttal would someone tell me if pedophillia or beastiality are featured in hentai?

[threemae]

Nothing personal there Tentacle Monster, (ironic name considering the discussion of Anime Tentacle Porn) but I have to disagree completely with your assesment of the effect of porn on potential offenders of actual crimes.

Everything that we have learned about the psychology of porn suggests that porn doesn't relieve but rather encourages the feelings stimulated by that pornography. Even porn that doesn't directly use rape/control fantasies enhances reponsiveness to such ideas and makes people more likely to act out deviant fantasies.

Not to say that that reflects anything about my own views of what should be allowed. I think that as long as it doesn't harm somebody directly in the manufacturing, it should be legal, but I don't think you can use the drive reduction argument to support it.

IMHO

[Larry Mudd]

Required reading:
"Rape" sex?! What the hell is wrong with you people?! (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=113689) (Thread from May 2002)

[badmana]

I've seen quite a bit Hentai and the closest that I've seen in terms of beastiality is monsters (having sex/raping women).

There is definitely pedphillia in a lot of Hentai anime.

[scr4]

Before I make my rebuttal would someone tell me if pedophillia or beastiality are featured in hentai?
It depends on whether (1) high school uniform fetish counts as "pedophilia", and (2) tentacled monsters (not the poster Tentacle Monster :) ) count as bestiality.

[Darkhold]

Before I make my rebuttal would someone tell me if pedophillia or beastiality are featured in hentai?
if you'll look to my post I already mentioned that there's pedophilia :p usually you'll have a 'strangely young looking girl' that's drawn to look 13 (or even younger) but due to some bizarro world aging system will be labeled at 18 by the game/movie. Sometimes though they don't even bother with that and flat out tell you the girl is underage. (if anyone doubts this check out "Nocturnal Illusion" it has two underage characters though the American version cuts out one and re-labels the other as 18)

As for bestiality.......do you count being raped by tentacle wielding demons? If so then definitely yes. If not? I'm not sure. I don't remember any examples off hand though I'm sure they are out there.

dang on preview I see I was slow to type all this. Oh well you'll get it anyway damnit.

[Miller]

You know how the first amendment gives the KKK the right to hold public rallies and parade down city streets? This is the other end of the spectrum. The content might be nauseating, but so long as all the parties involved are consenting adults, people have a right to create and consume this sort of stuff.

So you're saying that rape in Japan has dropped off since Hentai rape was introduced? Do you have any information to back that up?

I don't think that you could make a convincing case that the exsistence of rape porn prevents rape. But Japan's fantastically low rape statistics would seem to argue against the idea that rape porn encourages rape. Although no one here has yet made that claim.

Right. I don't suppose it has anything to do with Japanese prisons being hell on earth.

Unlike Japan, if you commit murder in the US, we'll kill your ass, and yet we still have murderers. Japan's prisons may be worse, but our prisons aren't exactly garden patches either, and we still have rape. So no, I don't suppose it has anything to do with Japanese prisons being hell on earth.

[Miller]

Although no one here has yet made that claim.

I see that while I was composing, someone did indeed advance that argument.

[badmana]

Data regarding sex crimes, consistently and regularly recorded in police records, are clearly more available and definitive than those for quantitative or qualitative measures of pornography. It is readily obvious from the data (Table 1) that the incidence of rape has been steadily and dramatically decreasing over the period under review. The incidence of rape has progressively declined from 4677 reported cases with 5464 offenders in 1972 to the 1995 incidence of 1500 cases with 1,160 offenders; a dramatic reduction in incidence of some two-thirds. The character of the rape also changed markedly. Early in our period of observation many of the rapes were gang (more than a single attacker) rapes thus accounting for the number of offenders exceeding the number of rapes reported. This has now become increasingly rare. The number of rapes committed by juveniles has also markedly decreased. Juveniles committed 33% of the rapes in 1972 but only 18% of the rapes committed in 1995.




From http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/online_artcls/pornography/prngrphy_rape_jp.html

I think TM is correct in his assessment.

The whole article is rather long though.

[Miller]

Grr. Hit Submit too soon. threemae, do you have a cite for:

Everything that we have learned about the psychology of porn suggests that porn doesn't relieve but rather encourages the feelings stimulated by that pornography. Even porn that doesn't directly use rape/control fantasies enhances reponsiveness to such ideas and makes people more likely to act out deviant fantasies

[Tentacle Monster]

Actually, I have seen specimens of hentai containing bestiality with things other than tentacle monsters. Fortunately, not enough to put *me* out of a job. :D

I found this study (http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/online_artcls/pornography/prngrphy_rape_jp.html) which does more analysis that I'm willing to do to defend my honor online (and for my beloved SDMB, that's quite a bit). Some excerpts:

Currently, not only are visuals with pubic hair and exposed genitalia present, but available are visual depictions of hard-core sexual encounters which include bestiality, sadomasochism, necrophilia and incest; the characters involved may be adults, children or both and they can be in manga as well as in adult reading materials.

The incidence of rape has progressively declined from 4677 reported cases with 5464 offenders in 1972 to the 1995 incidence of 1500 cases with 1,160 offenders; a dramatic reduction in incidence of some two-thirds. The character of the rape also changed markedly. Early in our period of observation many of the rapes were gang (more than a single attacker) rapes thus accounting for the number of offenders exceeding the number of rapes reported. This has now become increasingly rare. The number of rapes committed by juveniles has also markedly decreased. Juveniles committed 33% of the rapes in 1972 but only 18% of the rapes committed in 1995.

An additional measure of erotica available in Japan is that reported by Greenfeld (1994). In 1994 he wrote that approximately 14,000 "adult" videos were being made yearly in Japan compared with some 2500 in the U.S. And the average Japanese watched nearly an hour more of TV a day than did Americans.

So the Japanese watch/read more porn than we do, of a more graphic nature, and yet there are fewer rapes and sexual assaults. I'll admit it might not be the "drive-quenching" effect, but there is something majorly different, here. Personally, I think it's the difference in the quality of education between America and Japan. I can't prove this, being in the military leaves me precious little time to write theses.

[Tentacle Monster]

Damn. Fast-moving thread. Someone linked to the thesis I linked to while I was copying chunks out of it.

:smack: Must type faster!

[badmana]

Heh, I cheated by skimming over it and re-read it after I posted that one paragraph.

Lots of interesting data and I'm convinced the study is legit.

Kinda disturbing...K-12 students getting sex ed since the 70s means my parents went through sex ed. Kinda weird :)

[Darkhold]

One of the most annoying things is how girls that resist the 'rapes' are only more viciously brutalized and shamed while girls that don't usually end up having huge orgasms and coming back for more.

One wonders if this contributes to the low cases of reported rapes in Japan? The shame of admiting they were raped coupled with the idea it's their fault is something I've enounted those feelings in real life with American girls that have been taught for years it had nothing to do with them yet still are ashamed and think it's their faut. In the hentai side of Japan it's routinely shown as the opposite. (I'm not honestly venturing that as a theory just something that's crossed my mind from time to time)

[Urban Ranger]

Where's table 1 for the linked article?

[Lucki Chaarms]

Just had to pop in and say that I saw Bible Black IN A THEATER!! Once a week the local theater shows an anime movie, but it had certainly never been hentai when I'd gone before.

The evening's host was at a loss for words when introducing the movie. I think he just mumbled something like "So here's this week's movie. If this is your thing, great, if not... uh... sorry."

Like 2 minutes in to the first episode, there's a scene where a female teacher uses black magic to grow an enormous penis and rape a female student. It gets more and more intense from there, with a demonic/magical sex scene every few minutes. It started off slightly uncomfortable, but as it went on nobody could hold back their laughter any more. "Minase... my ass! Your cock is penetrating my ass!" You try not laughing at dialogue like that!

LC

[capacitor]

All I have to say is that Bible Black is relatively tame compared to otehr anime.

[Sublight]

Unlike Japan, if you commit murder in the US, we'll kill your ass, and yet we still have murderers. Japan's prisons may be worse, but our prisons aren't exactly garden patches either, and we still have rape. So no, I don't suppose it has anything to do with Japanese prisons being hell on earth.
Just a nitpicky hijack, but Japan has the death penalty as well, and makes pretty frequent use of it.

[clairobscur]

Unlike Japan, if you commit murder in the US, we'll kill your ass,.



Not unlike Japan. Death penaty does exist in Japan.

[jjimm]

Just a nitpicky hijack, but Japan has the death penalty as well, and makes pretty frequent use of it.This may be a dreadful continuation of the same hijack, and no cite here, but I heard on a radio documentary a few years ago that what distinguishes crime places like Japan and Singapore from the West is not the severity of punishment, but the high detection rate for crime. The documentary proposed that there was an inverse corellation between detection rate and crime rate.

[JRDelirious]

Before I make my rebuttal would someone tell me if pedophillia or beastiality are featured in hentai?

As mentioned before, Lolicon ("Engrish" for Lolita Complex) is pervasive in much Japanese porn (hentai) AND regular exploitation-media, be it live-action(videos), model photography(magazines), Anime(cartoons), Manga(print comics), or computer game. In live-action porn, of course, it will be models aged 18-21 wearing the uniform of middle-school girls and acting all giggly. In Anime/Manga/PCGames, as previously described, it's often barely-pubescent characters. Technically this really is not pedo but Hebephilia -- desire for young but sexually viable teens. Though the age-of-porn-employment in Japan is 18, the everyday-consenting-sex AOC is lower than in most of the USA -- so maybe it's that an adult lusting at a 14-year-old may be seen as immature, but not necessarily criminally depraved.

Even in non-porn -- there is a tolerance for a subtle (or sometimes not so subtle) sexualization of underage characters in mainstream productions, e.g. Evangelion's 14-year-olds (Studio Gainax has licensed nude calendars, figurines, and computer strip-mahjong :eek: games featuring Rei and Asuka. Being toons, they don't really exist, so the only one getting expoited is the buying fanboy)

Out-and-out pedophilia, meaning explicitly sexual portrayal of children, is to be mostly found "ghettoized" within a subset of Doujinshi ("Underground Comix") in both print and e- format.. Often the author will try to weasel out by casting the character as an android, alien or fairy. Sure.

As to Bestiality, other than mythological monsters, you can spot it in an ocassional mainstream-porn H-Manga such as the US-released Princess of Darkness or Voice of Submission, as isolated vignettes, not much different from what you may run into in Western porn. But that falls more into the whole "taboo topic" side, together with the incest, hermaphrodites (seems these dudes really like their shemales!), nuns, etc.

[Bubba Ray]

Google for Waita Uziga sometime.

I did, I come back slighty disturbed, well done my multilimbed friend. Can't say I shouldnt have been warned.

[Deadly Nightlight]

Never watch "Legend of the overfiend" then.
*I know its something like Onorushymitshiwa: Legend of the overfiend, but I can't remember what it is and am too lazy to look it up*

That being said, I have played a few hentai games. All of the characters were in college, but some of them look like they are about 14.

[peasea]

Definite nitpick:hermaphrodites were raping pregnant womenShe's not pregnant, nor is the viewer supposed to think she is. I'd explain, but I doubt you want me to.

[Tentacle Monster]

Deadly Nightlight: It's Urotsukidoji. I've never seen it, and I really don't know why I remembered how to spell it.

Bubba Ray Only slightly disturbed? :eek: You've got a much stronger stomach than I do. But it does illustrate the point that rape isn't exactly the most disturbing thing portrayed in hentai.

Unless you consider rape more disgusting than... well... damn. I just had lunch and don't really want to think about that.

[nevermore]

To the OP, I'm not sure that rape is actually more prevalent in hentai than in live-action porn, but if it is (and I wouldn't be at all surprised), I'd guess it's something to do with the fact that there's no trauma or degradation in voice-acting a rape scene, as opposed to live-acting it. In other words, I doubt it's for a lack of American interest.

Darkhold, you said
One of the most annoying things is how girls that resist the 'rapes' are only more viciously brutalized and shamed while girls that don't usually end up having huge orgasms and coming back for more.

One wonders if this contributes to the low cases of reported rapes in Japan? The shame of admiting they were raped coupled with the idea it's their fault is something I've enounted those feelings in real life with American girls that have been taught for years it had nothing to do with them yet still are ashamed and think it's their faut. In the hentai side of Japan it's routinely shown as the opposite. (I'm not honestly venturing that as a theory just something that's crossed my mind from time to time)

aaand, I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Are you proposing that Japanese females have been conditioned (by hentai pornography??) to feel that resisting = bad and not resisting = better, so, associating going to the police with resisting, they're discouraged from reporting the crime? Whereas American girls would be more ashamed if they didn't resist? (Am I following your logic? I don't want to respond until I've got it right)

...at any rate, I've heard several people who've lived in Japan, including a cultural anthropologist, say that the great burden of shame in a reported rape is primarily
on the victim there, so I'd imagine that's a huge factor in the low incidence of reported cases. As for the cultural mentality causing this phenomenon, I can only speculate it's at least partially to do with the still-deeply-ingrained notion of male dominance in Japan, and perhaps even with the importance of consensus in their society... there is much more emphasis on the group and proportionately less on the individual there, so the one voice disturbing the calm waters is going to be not-subtly resented, and will feel alienated (a very, very bad thing in Japan).

Now, Tentacle Monster:
So the Japanese watch/read more porn than we do, of a more graphic nature, and yet there are fewer rapes and sexual assaults. I'll admit it might not be the "drive-quenching" effect, but there is something majorly different, here.

More speculation, of course, but my theory's that it's because they're just a much more sexually open society, due at least in part to the fact that there's no national religion prohibiting sex before marriage, or 'sodomy', or placing really ANY limitations on sex provided it doesn't violate the rights of another human being.

[Darkhold]

aaand, I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Are you proposing that Japanese females have been conditioned (by hentai pornography??) to feel that resisting = bad and not resisting = better, so, associating going to the police with resisting, they're discouraged from reporting the crime? Whereas American girls would be more ashamed if they didn't resist? (Am I following your logic? I don't want to respond until I've got it right)
Sorry for my rambling post here's basically what I was saying. Shame and guilt seems to be a universal feeling even by those that have been told all their lives that it's not their fault for being raped. Even by girls that 'know' better they rarely to never report what happened. Japanese porn seems to tell girls it is their fault and they should be ashamed. Especially if they fight back or try to report it that just causes things to get worse for them. That might be a small part of the low rate of reported rapes in Japan. As I said I wasn't putting it forth as a serious theory with research to back it up. Just something that I wonder about time to time.

[MelCthefirst]

Agree with last two posts - also, rape within marriage is legal in Japan, so women don't even think of it as 'rape' if they are married.

[DeaganTheWolf]

Easy, easy..... Guys, it's art. Hentai and other erotica provide a way for people to explore the strange and bizzarre in a safe manner. Chances are, the animators and artists are relatively normal sexually, and are merely chasing after the extreme for it's own sake. True rape, isn't about sex, it's about power, the hentai is a fantasy of domination. In fact, since the girls who go along with enjoy it in the end, it's a total male power trip. "see I told you you wanted it! You were wrong, I was right, aren't you glad now I didn't stop?" -type of deal. Same goes for beastiality, necrophilia etc. There may be a few pervs who are INTO that sort of thing for it's own sake, but the majority is a simple fascination with the bizzarre. Relax, it's a cartoon. If they were producing homemade films of actual rapes I'd be much more worried.

[TwistofFate]

as a friend said to me, it's not hentai unless the woman is crying.


aside from that, it's a cartoon. noone is hurt in the making of it, so who cares?

It's not teaching anything other than a girl with giant eyes and giant spiky green hair like having sex with multi donged monsters.

[kimera]

Shame and guilt seems to be a universal feeling even by those that have been told all their lives that it's not their fault for being raped. Even by girls that 'know' better they rarely to never report what happened. Japanese porn seems to tell girls it is their fault and they should be ashamed. Especially if they fight back or try to report it that just causes things to get worse for them. That might be a small part of the low rate of reported rapes in Japan.

I'm going to have to agree with this and say that Japan actually has a lot more rape victims than are officially known.

For one, I have seen anime and manga (written for girls) where girls are raped and are treated horribly by school mates/neighbors, peers. I have read a few where the girls committed suicide. See Tokyo Babylon, which will be released here soon, for a sad story of a girl raped by gang members who feels she has no choice but to kill herself.

But as anime/manga does not reflect Japanese society, I have a few cites:

Seiichi Ota, a lawmaker with the ruling Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) said "Gang rape shows the people who do it are still vigorous, and that is OK. I think that might make them close to normal."
...Yasuyuki Takai, vice chairman of the Japan Federation of Bar Association's committee on victim support, said Mr Ota's remarks were indicative of Japanese society's passive attitude to rape, which often goes unreported.

"It shows that in Japan, rape is not thought of enough as an awful act... Japan's social views against incidents of rape need to be made more strict," Mr Takai told the French news agency AFP. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3025240.stm)

"The case shows that Japanese men, especially young men, are contaminated with a rape myth that a girl who joins a party wants to have sex," said Satoshi Sugita, a professor who published The Politics of Rape.

"Although having sex is totally different from being raped, men strongly believe that the two things are the same. It is because of an ideology that has spread in Japan through pornography, especially adult videos.

"About 80 to 90 per cent of male high school students have seen an adult video, whose typical plot is a man raping a woman after having got her drunk." (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/07/04/1057179159324.html)

Uchiyama also made another shocking discovery. Half the suspected rapists aged from 14 to 19 and 48 percent of those in the same age bracket facing charges of indecent assault say they were inspired to commit their sex crime based on what they'd seen in pornographic movies. Adult sex criminals were similarly influenced by adult movies, with 38 percent of suspected rapists and 21 percent of those accused of indecent assault saying they were merely copying what they'd seen on their VCRs. (http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/features/0208/20020829sexcrime.html)

[V]iolence against women in Japan remains largely unreported due to inadequate laws and the failure of police and judicial officials to treat such crimes with the requisite degree of concern. In 1994, for example, only 1,500 rapes were reported in Japan. This under-reporting may be attributable to a six-month period of limitations within which a rape must be reported, as well as the difficulty of securing justice in rape cases.

In Japan, a rape victim must show evidence of having resisted the attack. The legal standard of the degree of coercion in sexual assault cases is that the force used must be so extreme as to deprive the victim of the ability to resist. A rapist’s misunderstanding of consent is still accepted as a defence. (http://www.ahrchk.net/hrsolid/mainfile.php/1999vol09no01/788/)

Decisions not to report sexual assault in Japan (http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/proceedings/27/dussich.pdf)

Now, on the flip side, I must admit that I get off on reading comics that feature males raping males. It is rather strange and I don't understand it myself, especially since male on female rape disturbs me very much. I do not enjoy rape in real life at all (my boyfriend was almost raped) and I think that anyone who tries to rape anyone should be put away for a very long time, but I do find these comics very erotic. I put myself in the place of the victim most of the time too. I do not think that watching/reading things that involve rape make a person more likely to go out and rape unless they are already likely to do so.

There are comics that are made for women that feature males involved in romantic relationships with other males. In almost all of these comics (as in most h comics. the proper term is h or ecchi, not hentai) a primary male character is raped. In some of these, as also in H, the victim will eventually come to love his/her rapist, although in most of them, the rapists is the antagnoist who the brave "seme" (top) will save his "uke" (bottom) from.

I also have noted that in the male/male comics. (known as yaoi or shounen ai) The relationship between the two main male characters is sometimes violent. BDSM is very popular in a lot of these, although in the last 10 years or so, more light, cute and happier comics are on the market compared to their dark counterparts. Still, I have worked selling these comics before and the ones that feature the rape and bondage sell at a much higher rate than the cute fluffy ones. These are to people in the US, but I imagine the rates in Japan are about the same.

I collect various comics and I have a lot of them on my harddrive. Probably the most disturbing one I have is the homosexual, pedephilist, bondage, rape, beastiality one I found. The kid in the comic can not be more than 7. The shocking amount of pedephilistic rape in Japanese comics disturbs me much more than the rape itself.

[Darkhold]

True rape, isn't about sex, it's about power, the hentai is a fantasy of domination. In fact, since the girls who go along with enjoy it in the end, it's a total male power trip. "see I told you you wanted it! You were wrong, I was right, aren't you glad now I didn't stop?" -type of deal. And this is an acceptable thing......how? :p

Relax, it's a cartoon. If they were producing homemade films of actual rapes I'd be much more worried.Well there's plenty of live action 'rape' videos from Japan. Many of them claiming to be the real thing. (with the actors face blurred out the woman screaming and crying while being yelled/laughed at.....I assume they are saying fairly degrading stuff but it's of course Japanese so I have no idea what they are saying) is this less acceptable b/c it's not a cartoon? Now I'm not a hysterical type that's claiming that this causes rapes or that the people that routinely jack to it are closet rapists. Just saying it's weird and creepy how prevalent it is.

[Bubba Ray]

Agree with last two posts - also, rape within marriage is legal in Japan, so women don't even think of it as 'rape' if they are married.

May I be the first to ask for the dreaded cite or (preferably) the friendly pat on the back that I am being whooshed with that statement?

The mangrove jungle of additional complications of rape in a marriage and the surely frightening high number of non reported cases nonewithstanding, the above idea seems to be a bit too strange to just accept as given.

@ Tentacle Monster, I admit that my initial curiosity immediatelly left to room to shot itself behind the house after seeing the first picture. But its still just a drawn picture and all the exposure to rotten, goatse and co it's nothing that steals my sleep, my appetite may be a different matter when it's lunchtime.

[DeaganTheWolf]

It's not acceptable. In real Life This isn't real life, it's fantasy. I don't see the problem, nor do I see the attraction. I'm a fan of ecchi/hentai art but you'll not find a rape, or pedo pic in my collection. I don't get it. But a lot of men there must feel powerless or subordinate to create such a large sub genre of art. I'm willing to bet that a lot of the hentai fans, are not fans of the real deal flicks. It takes something that's a harmless indulgence to making it "too real". I can't too worked up over this.

[Darkhold]

I don't get it. But a lot of men there must feel powerless or subordinate to create such a large sub genre of art.
Heh I saw a news show that targeted a whore house that specialized in girls acting underaged for the customers. The madam of the house claimed that modern men in Japan are taught that they should be smarter and better then their women and in a day and age where women are possibly as worldly/educated as the men are that they fear inferior and so seek out the 'innocence' of very young girls to compensate (the show didn't say if there were rape fantasies but I remember that one of the big sellers was getting on a fake subway car and sliding your hand up a girls skirt while she just stood there and took it b/c she (in the fantasy of course) didn't want to cause a scene and was secretly enjoying it). So you might have a point about the power issue........if a 1/2 remembered show and the word of a madam has any weight in this discussion.

And once again to be clear I'm not worked up or needing to relax. I have no stake in this. I just think it's something interesting to look at all sides of. :D

[Bricker]

May I be the first to ask for the dreaded cite or (preferably) the friendly pat on the back that I am being whooshed with that statement?

The mangrove jungle of additional complications of rape in a marriage and the surely frightening high number of non reported cases nonewithstanding, the above idea seems to be a bit too strange to just accept as given.


Just a data point: it wasn't too long ago in this country that it was, in many jurisdictions, legally impossible for a man to rape his wife -- that is, the state of matrimony was conclusive proof of consent.

- Rick

[Bubba Ray]

Just a data point: it wasn't too long ago in this country that it was, in many jurisdictions, legally impossible for a man to rape his wife -- that is, the state of matrimony was conclusive proof of consent.

- Rick

Sorry, I should probably put it in my profile but I am german, and while I know that the german law had a similiar law, which was repealed some time ago. I admit I would have to do a google on the exact date, my statement was into the direction that the idea that such a law is still upheld in a progressive (first world, modern, western oriented, take your pick all the terms can sound tacky) country like Japan is disturbing.

[Wesley Clark]

i cant get upset about pretend rapes while real murders are televised all the time.

[kimera]

May I be the first to ask for the dreaded cite or (preferably) the friendly pat on the back that I am being whooshed with that statement?

The mangrove jungle of additional complications of rape in a marriage and the surely frightening high number of non reported cases nonewithstanding, the above idea seems to be a bit too strange to just accept as given.


From of the links I used above

A 1985 Tokyo district court decision denied a woman’s request for divorce on grounds of the husband having used physical force to have sex with her, ruling: "It is in no way illegal for a husband to demand sexual intercourse from a wife, nor does a wife have any rights to deny such a request." In a 1986 divorce case, a Tokyo court denied a wife a divorce which she sought on grounds that her husband had frequently raped her, ruling that the husband had a right to force sexual intercourse and that the wife was at fault for not assuming her "legal duty" as a wife. A poll conducted by a men’s weekly magazine revealed that 70 per cent of the respondents had compelled their wives to have sex. No precedent exists in Japanese law stating that forced sex in marriage constitutes rape.

This essay was published in 2001, so it might have changed since then.

[Sublight]

This may be a dreadful continuation of the same hijack, and no cite here, but I heard on a radio documentary a few years ago that what distinguishes crime places like Japan and Singapore from the West is not the severity of punishment, but the high detection rate for crime. The documentary proposed that there was an inverse corellation between detection rate and crime rate.
The thread's pretty much wandered, so I guess continuing the hijack couldn't hurt.

The clearance rate for crimes in Japan is fairly high (although I don't have the numbers with me), and that may indeed serve as a deterrent. I'm of the opinion, however, that the clearance rate is as high as it is because of a few not-so-admirable factors.

This is anecdotal, but the police have a reputation for dissuading people from filing a report for crimes that will be difficult or inconvenient to pursue. Some bad examples are the Niigata kidnapping case*, plus another from a couple of years back when a college student was murdered by a hitman hired by her ex-boyfriend. In this case it came out that she had complained to the police that he was threatening her, but they pressured her to retract her complaint. They are also known for simply dropping the charges if they think it likely that the suspect will be found not guilty by reason of insanity, as they did when Mamoru Takuma was released without going to trial after trying to murder two of his co-workers. He then went on to murder eight schoolchildren in Osaka and bragged about how he had tricked the police into letting him go the first time.

Another problem is that the police and prosecutors in Japan have much greater latitude in their 'interview' techniques than American police do. Suspects can be held for three weeks without being charged, there is no right to have an attorney present, and confessions extracted during interrogation (with only police as witnesses) have been considered valid. I often hear that the majority of cases are 'solved' when the suspect confesses to his crimes. Considering the circumstances, I can't help but wonder how valid the confessions are.

A third problem is that there is no jury system, and the judges overwhelmingly find in favor of the prosecution (there are several with guilty verdict rates of 99% and even 100%). A couple of cases that garnered some international attention are those of Nick Baker (http://www.japantoday.com/gidx/feature547.html) and Rosal Manalili (http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=comment&id=239&page=16), both of whom were convicted under questionable circumstances.

* the search function isn't finding it, but I wrote a Pit rant about this a year or so back. A little girl was kidnapped and held prisoner in a small bedroom for 9 years, during which time the police were called on several occasions by people who suspected what was going on, but in every case they declined to investigate.

[sirtonyh]

Google for Waita Uziga sometime.


Yikes! I so, so wish I hadn't taken your advice :eek:

[Lamia]

Agree with last two posts - also, rape within marriage is legal in Japan, so women don't even think of it as 'rape' if they are married.

I would be fascinated to hear how you came by this remarkable insight into the minds of the women of Japan.

[cainxinth]

I’ve thought about this one a little bit, and here’s my response.

Watching simulations of depraved acts may or may not be encouraging or deterring the real thing. I haven’t seen conclusive evidence for either. However, there is something deep down in my gut that says it’s wrong to get aroused by watching a girl whimpering and crying as she is brutally raped, and that’s exactly what these images are designed to do.

That said, I will concede that in weak, sex addled moments, rape fantasies have entered into my fantasies, as clearly it has for many people. The difference I think, is that these aren’t fantasies that I seek out, or try to cultivate in my consciousness. If the Japanese (or anyone else for that matter) thinks there is no harm, no foul in depicting minor school girls being gang raped, something seriously wrong is happening.

The people making these films are taking one of the most vicious acts one person can perpetrate on another and making it merely risqué, taboo, a forbidden pleasure. Rape is not a forbidden pleasure, it’s an often indelible violation of personal security. The fact that people are marketing rape films, making money off of it is beyond an insult to any person that has had their life tainted by it.

[spudzilla]

Maybe, just maybe, this could explain why Japan has a much lower incidence of actual rape than the US.
I don't think it explains anything. There are too many other factors to be considered, not the least of which is that Japan is a much less violent society overall than the U.S. Not only are there far fewer rapes in Japan than in the U.S., per capita, but the same is true of assaults, robberies and -- to an extent -- murders (see below).

Crimes per capita (per 1000 people):

_____________U.S.___Japan__Factor
Rapes________0.32___0.02___16
Murders______0.05___0.01___5
Assaults_____7.98___0.34___23
Robberies____1.46___0.04___37
Burglaries___7.48___2.33___3.2
Car Thefts___4.09___2.44___1.7

Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_cap
(Sorry for the ugly underlines. Couldn't figure out how to insert a table!)

Another important factor regarding the declining incidence of (reported) rape in Japan is that attitudues toward sexual harassment, sexual discrimination, and the social status of women in general in Japan have been changing significantly. There is much less female nudity on TV than there was ten years ago, and gropers on rush-hour trains are no longer tolerated like they used to be. In this light, it's hardly surprising that there are fewer rapes in Japan than there were thirty years ago.

Given the various other factors that have to be taken into account, the correlation between the vibrant Japanese porn industry and the low incidence of rape in Japan doesn't mean much, by itself. Personally, though, I think there's a low incidence of rape in Japan despite the porn industry rather than because of it.

[tiny ham]

cainxinth, have you read the thread that Larry Mudd linked to? I see this thread going right in that direction.

I'll jump in as a woman who is a rape survivor who STILL HAS RAPE FANTASIES. Hentai rape is very, obviously eroticised (as violent as it is), and stylized. Plenty of woman, I dare say millions have violent rape/domination/kidnapping fantasies and things like written erotica and hentai allow us to halfway experiencing these fantasies in a safe environment.

I mean, it's much better for me to write/read rape erotica than to place an ad in the paper for a stranger to act something out.

[MelCthefirst]

I would be fascinated to hear how you came by this remarkable insight into the minds of the women of Japan.
Well apart from having studied attitudes towards rape, including rape within marriage (which has correctly been pointed out was legal up until fairly recently for most western countries and is still legal is many, possibly most developing nations) within my own culture, whilst living in Japan I have been party to at least two conversations with women which blew my mind. During one of them we were sitting around talking about sex for some unknown reason, one younger woman had just got married and was having fun with sex, another older one, with envy said how she didn't like having to do it when she didn't want to and it was the part of marriage she didn't like.
Noone except me (the only westerner present) thought, whoa, that's rape.
Why would you report a rape if a. it is not illegal and b. you don't think of it as rape, c. you didn't resist anyway because it is just a marriage duty you do not wish to perform but do anyway? Japanese women in my experience, would think of stranger non-concentual sex as 'rape'. I am ofcourse generalising, and I lived in a very traditional area of the far North, those who have been exposed to western ideology, law, culture may well have different thoughts.
I also should have stated that as of 1996, rape within marriage was legal, I'm not sure if the law has changed.

[blowero]

Nothing personal there Tentacle Monster, (ironic name considering the discussion of Anime Tentacle Porn) but I have to disagree completely with your assesment of the effect of porn on potential offenders of actual crimes.

Everything that we have learned about the psychology of porn suggests that porn doesn't relieve but rather encourages the feelings stimulated by that pornography. Even porn that doesn't directly use rape/control fantasies enhances reponsiveness to such ideas and makes people more likely to act out deviant fantasies.

I challenge this assertion. There is no evidence that pornography causes people to rape. You are confusing simultaneity with cause/effect. "Everything that we have learned", indeed.:rolleyes:

And I think all of you are missing the point. The point is that you have no more evidence to back up the assertion that porn causes rape than Tentacle Monster has to back up his assertion that it prevents rape. It's all just wild speculation.

And lets stop with this silly posturing about "Oh my God - what kind of sick, diseased, pervert has fantasies about rape?". Give me a fucking break. Rape and domination fantasies are completely mainstream everywhere, it's just a matter of degree. If you recall, just last Sunday, Justin Timberlake ripped some of Janet Jackson's clothing off. That's how they acted it out, too - he didn't say "Excuse me, Janet - may I undo your brassiere?", he reached over and tore it off. And how many movies coming out of Hollywood feature women being dominated? It's a standard plot formula - the bad guy abducts the sexy woman (who is usually scantily-clad), ties her up or subdues her some other way, and tries to have his way with her. The fact that she's rescued at the last second by the hero doesn't change the implied rape fantasy.

It's natural to have fantasies about domination. If it weren't, you can bet Hollywood wouldn't be putting that stuff in there. And when you take a society like Japan, where people struggle in extremely high-pressure jobs, are completely dominated by their employers, and feel powerless every day, you can bet there are going to be a lot more men having fantasies about domination. They just take it a lot further.

Personally, I don't see the problem with an animated fantasy like that. I think Deagan really nailed it:

Easy, easy..... Guys, it's art. Hentai and other erotica provide a way for people to explore the strange and bizzarre in a safe manner. Chances are, the animators and artists are relatively normal sexually, and are merely chasing after the extreme for it's own sake. True rape, isn't about sex, it's about power, the hentai is a fantasy of domination. In fact, since the girls who go along with enjoy it in the end, it's a total male power trip. "see I told you you wanted it! You were wrong, I was right, aren't you glad now I didn't stop?" -type of deal. Same goes for beastiality, necrophilia etc. There may be a few pervs who are INTO that sort of thing for it's own sake, but the majority is a simple fascination with the bizzarre. Relax, it's a cartoon. If they were producing homemade films of actual rapes I'd be much more worried.

People ought to be much more concerned with the real subjugation of women that's going on around the world, not some harmless drawings.

[cainxinth]

Play it off as over-sensitivity if you wish. What I saw in that movie was not okay, it was totally fucked up I’m a little taken aback that so many of you can have such an openly cavalier attitude about rape.

All kidding aside, if you are dreaming about raping someone or being raped, shouldn't you be consulting a shrink and not your local smut dealer?

[blowero]

Play it off as over-sensitivity if you wish.

When did I mention "over-sensitivity"?

What I saw in that movie was not okay, it was totally fucked up

But it wasn't REAL. It was a drawing. It didn't really happen. What disturbed you so much? If it wasn't the rape fantasy in general, was it the schoolkids, the pregnant woman or the hermaphrodyte? I guess I don't get it - is rape worse if a hermaphrodyte does it? Is it less wrong if the woman isn't pregnant?

I’m a little taken aback that so many of you can have such an openly cavalier attitude about rape.

Oh, now I see why you put this in the pit; you thought you could get away with such intellectually dishonest statements. I don't think anyone has a cavalier attitude about rape. I think some people spoke honestly about rape fantasies, but not rape. It's not the same thing, and your attempt to paint it as such is total bullshit.

I also notice that you hide behind the vagueness of saying "many of you". You level the most heinous of charges, yet decline to state exactly who you are accusing. Deplorable.

All kidding aside, if you are dreaming about raping someone or being raped, shouldn't you be consulting a shrink and not your local smut dealer?
You're an idiot.

[tiny ham]

All kidding aside, if you are dreaming about raping someone or being raped, shouldn't you be consulting a shrink and not your local smut dealer?

Short answer, no.

Now you're going to tell people what you think is appropriate and inappropriate for them to THINK about? Please. Or are you simply assuming that those who participate or think about rape fantasy are too stupid to realize that the real thing is different? I've been through both and pal, there ain't NO similarities. I'm not walking the streets looking to be raped, because I'm a sentient, functioning adult. But if I sit at home and get off thinking about being ravished by Pirates or Football Players or Orcs or some such shit, what's the fucking harm?

[FaerieBeth]

I don't think anyone has a cavalier attitude about rape. I think some people spoke honestly about rape fantasies, but not rape. It's not the same thing, and your attempt to paint it as such is total bullshit.



This bears repeating. It is not the same. I often fantasize about my husband storming home from work, flinging open the front, dragging me by my hair to the bed, despite my loud and pleading protests...and well, you get the picture. This, however, does not mean that I condone the crime of rape, nor does it mean I am somehow unhealthy in my attitudes about sexuality.

http://health.discovery.com/centers/sex/sexpedia/fantasy.html

Having a fantasy about a particular sexual practice or activity does not mean that a person actually wishes to engage in that behavior or that he/she would enjoy the behavior.
While fantasy may enhance actual sexual practices, it should not be assumed that a fantasized behavior represents an unconscious desire. Thus, some women fantasize about being overpowered or even raped by a man, but this does not mean they actually want to be raped.



http://www.deviantdesires.com/askme/rape.html

Rape fantasies are extremely common among both women and men. Rape fantasies are essentially fantasies of sexual submission -- the desire to cede control to another person, or to have someone else take the dominant role. As far as I know, fantasies of being raped are far more common among women. This may be because it is still socially unacceptable for women to assert their own sexuality -- they may find it more comfortable to have someone else take responsibility for sexual urges. In rare cases, people who wish to act out rape fantasies have suffered real sexual assault or abuse in the past, and playacting within safe boundaries and guidelines is their way of healing themselves, or gaining a sense of control of the situtation.





FB

[Mighty_Girl]

Originally Posted by blowero
I don't think anyone has a cavalier attitude about rape. I think some people spoke honestly about rape fantasies, but not rape. It's not the same thing, and your attempt to paint it as such is total bullshit.
This bears repeating. It is not the same. In case she misses it. It is not the same. I've had fantasies about been raped by my husband. We've acted out, and it was darn good. That doesn't meand that I go around dark alleys hoping to be raped by a stranger nor would I want my husband to rape for real.

Get real, stop accusing random dopers of supporting rape. That's bullshit.

[Tentacle Monster]

I don't care what someone masturbates to, so long as A) nobody was seriously hurt in the making of the pornography and B) nobody not capable of legally signing a contract (including animals) is involved in the making of the pornography. In the making of hentai, the only people hurt are the people at the animation studio, and the whips the supervisors use rarely cause lasting damage.

I may not agree with what you masturbate to, but (in most cases) I'll defend to the death your right to masturbate to it.

In the OP, cainxinth said he was looking on kazaa for some porn when he downloaded Bible Black, and that's when he was shocked. Now, I've always believed that if something offends you, turn it off and watch something else. Somehow he managed to stomach at least one rape scene and keep watching, or else he wouldn't be able to describe more than one scene. In the future, cainxinth, may I suggest doing a quick Google search on the title before downloading unknown hentai? Save yourself the time spent downloading something you'll be offended by.

As far as making money off of someone's perverted fantasies, well, one man's meat is another man's perversion. Also, the actual products of the perverted fantasy industry, when used properly, don't usually hurt anybody. Since the advent of DVD, injuries and fatalities by porn assault are way down. It takes a really good arm to hurt someone with a DVD.

In short: save your outrage for something that really matters. It doesn't matter if your neighbor is rubbing one out to a 1978 Playboy or Bondage Queen Kate. It neither picks your pocket nor breaks your leg.

[Lamia]

Well apart from having studied attitudes towards rape, including rape within marriage (which has correctly been pointed out was legal up until fairly recently for most western countries and is still legal is many, possibly most developing nations) within my own culture, whilst living in Japan I have been party to at least two conversations with women which blew my mind. During one of them we were sitting around talking about sex for some unknown reason, one younger woman had just got married and was having fun with sex, another older one, with envy said how she didn't like having to do it when she didn't want to and it was the part of marriage she didn't like.
Noone except me (the only westerner present) thought, whoa, that's rape.


This is interesting as an anecdote, but I don't think it's proof that "women don't even think of it as 'rape' if they are married". I don't think it's even proof that a woman "doesn't even think of it as 'rape' if she's married", since "having to do it when she didn't want to" could mean any number of things. It could mean spousal rape, or it could merely mean consenting to sex when you're not really in the mood just to make your spouse happy.


Why would you report a rape if a. it is not illegal and b. you don't think of it as rape, c. you didn't resist anyway because it is just a marriage duty you do not wish to perform but do anyway?

I didn't ask why Japanese women don't report spousal rape; I doubt they have reasons much different from women in other cultures who don't report spousal rape. But I simply do not believe that the women of Japan universally agree that their husbands can do whatever they like to them and it's no big deal to them personally. Maybe that's not what you meant with your earlier post (which was just a one-liner), but that's what it looked like. I too live in Japan, and I too know a lot of Japanese women, and I just can't believe that the women I know would all be A-OK with being raped by their husbands. A little "marital duty" sex, maybe, but not being forced by threat or violence into performing sexual acts.

But I don't mean to pick on you too much, MelCthefirst, especially since I suspect now that I may have misunderstood your meaning. It's the OP, cainxinth, who's really bothering me. cainxinth, I personally don't care for pornography and I am disturbed by the idea of violent pornography that glamorizes rape. The description of the video in your OP was upsetting to me. But what I found far more upsetting is the way you've been phrasing this issue not as "There's something wrong with rape porn!" but rather as "There's something wrong with the Japanese!" There is something wrong with you if you think you're in a position to condemn a rich and fascinating culture just because you happened to catch a glimpse of one of its fringe pornographic videos. Do you think the people and culture of your country would look any better if judged in the same way?

[cainxinth]

I think your all fucking nuts. Go watch “Bible Black” and watch tears stream down the student body president as ten dudes rape the shit out of her and shallack her with cum, and then tell me that its just wholesome, healthy sexual expression, art even. I don’t care if it was a shadow puppet film, its fucking depraved, and the thought of some smut lord counting up your fucking money as he hawks that shit is even more revolting.

If you and hubby want to play domination games in the privacy of your sex lives, that’s your business, but that movie is fucking wrong in every way possible.

[cainxinth]

The description of the video in your OP was upsetting to me. But what I found far more upsetting is the way you've been phrasing this issue not as "There's something wrong with rape porn!" but rather as "There's something wrong with the Japanese!" There is something wrong with you if you think you're in a position to condemn a rich and fascinating culture just because you happened to catch a glimpse of one of its fringe pornographic videos. Do you think the people and culture of your country would look any better if judged in the same way?

In my encounters I've never seen rape porn in the US, and if it is legal here and does exist, it certainly not as prevelant as it appears to be in Japan.

I just don't get any of it. Not only is rape fucked up, its a crime. I think everyone agrees its still something that can enter into ones sexual thoughts without being unhealthy. But, these movies are mainstreaming what should be a very, very underground and private thing.

[Mighty_Girl]

I think your all fucking nuts. Go watch “Bible Black” and watch tears stream down the student body president as ten dudes rape the shit out of her and shallack her with cum, and then tell me that its just wholesome, healthy sexual expression, art even. I don’t care if it was a shadow puppet film, its fucking depraved, and the thought of some smut lord counting up your fucking money as he hawks that shit is even more revolting.

If you and hubby want to play domination games in the privacy of your sex lives, that’s your business, but that movie is fucking wrong in every way possible.I think you are a very sick person. Perverted and sick. You go on the internet looking for depictions of sexual acts. We all know that porn promotes unsafe sex, sex outside marriage, and it also strips sex of its sanctity while objetifying women. You should be deeply ashamed of yourself.

What is OK for you is sick for others.

[Tentacle Monster]

cainxinth: Yes, rape videos exist in the US. (Google is your friend).

But what about movies that involve depictions of rape but aren't actually porn? Is it wrong for a guy to make money like that?

Or does it become wrong when someone starts beating off to it?

[cainxinth]

I think you are a very sick person. Perverted and sick. You go on the internet looking for depictions of sexual acts. We all know that porn promotes unsafe sex, sex outside marriage, and it also strips sex of its sanctity while objetifying women. You should be deeply ashamed of yourself.

What is OK for you is sick for others.

Point taken, but it's a question of boundaries, and that movie crosses too many of them. I'm mean what is sick for someone who find "Bible Black" OK? I think the sick train stops with rape porn.

[kung fu lola]

This is interesting as an anecdote, but I don't think it's proof that "women don't even think of it as 'rape' if they are married". I don't think it's even proof that a woman "doesn't even think of it as 'rape' if she's married", since "having to do it when she didn't want to" could mean any number of things. It could mean spousal rape, or it could merely mean consenting to sex when you're not really in the mood just to make your spouse happy.

I am so with you, Lamia, and sadly there are women who would call "consenting to sex when you're not really in the mood just to make your spouse happy" rape, which is stupid, disingenuous, and divisive, IMHO.

[Lamia]

In my encounters I've never seen rape porn in the US,

Where were you when you watched the video that sparked the OP, then? You didn't have to go to Japan to get it, did you?

and if it is legal here and does exist,

Of course it's legal and of course it exists. How sheltered are you? I don't even watch porn (unlike some people, I choose to avoid media I find distasteful) and I know there is rape porn in the US. The "Rape sex" thread linked to earlier in this thread was started by one person surprised and disgusted by his discovery of such porn. And that was porn with real people in it, not cartoon characters.


it certainly not as prevelant as it appears to be in Japan.

And what makes you the expert on what is prevalent in Japan? I live in Japan, and while I am aware that Japanese rape porn exists this is only because I heard about it in America. I have never seen it here, nor has anyone ever brought it up in conversation with me. Maybe if I went out looking for porn I'd find some, but as I said, I don't like porn so I don't seek it out.

[Miller]

I think your all fucking nuts. Go watch “Bible Black” and watch tears stream down the student body president as ten dudes rape the shit out of her and shallack her with cum, and then tell me that its just wholesome, healthy sexual expression, art even.

First, thanks, I'd rather not watch the film. It's this wierd thing I do where I avoid watching or reading things I know will offend me. You should try it some time.

Second, of course it's not wholesome. It's porn. Duh! As for healthy, do you have any evidence of anyone's health, physical or mental, being harmed in any way because of this movie? If not, then yes, I believe I would have to call it "healthy."

Oh, and what the hell: it's art, too.

I don’t care if it was a shadow puppet film, its fucking depraved, and the thought of some smut lord counting up your fucking money as he hawks that shit is even more revolting.

I agree. Free porn now! Porn to the people! The people excited shall never be divided!

If you and hubby want to play domination games in the privacy of your sex lives, that’s your business...

"I don't mind what those fags do in the privacy of their own homes, I just don't like seeing 'em flaunt it all over the place!"

Sorry, but it's not anyone else's responsibility to see that you get to go through your life without ever being grossed out. You don't want to see rape porn, don't look at it. Really, very simple idea.

...but that movie is fucking wrong in every way possible.

Well, it's not quite wrong in every possible way. The one way it's not wrong is in the way it causes no actual harm to anyone who actually exsists. So long as that's true, all the other ways it's "wrong" are merely matters of personal taste.

[tiny ham]

I think your all fucking nuts. Go watch “Bible Black” and watch tears stream down the student body president as ten dudes rape the shit out of her and shallack her with cum, and then tell me that its just wholesome, healthy sexual expression, art even.

Thank you for your expert diagnosis.

Here's the thing, I would never watch Bible Black, just like I don't go out seeking DOLCETT websites (which I'm sure you'd love) , because I've learned, as an adult what my limit is. Yours is apparently lower than mine.

I find women crying very sexy as a matter of fact. Women begging, pleading, crying AS A PART OF A FANTASY is what turns me on. Do I go out and burn women with matches to achieve that? No.

Fantasy vs. Reality. Some of us can separate it, some of us can't.

[JRDelirious]

Oh, and as for the "prevalence" thing...

Those of us in the West may get a distorted perception about how much of Japanese entertainment is Hentai, and how much of Hentai is extreme-themed, because the exporters/importers of the material know that in this marketplace, shock value = $$$ . Most of what's in the Japan domestic porn market is probably just as much ordinary, ho-hum, "look, tits!", "look, a dick(OK, the pixelled outline of a dick)!", "look, 'lesbians'!", material as what's in the US domestic porn market

BTW, it is true that in American "big studio" porn (e.g. Vivid) there was a "cleanup" of some of the taboo themes such as rape and incest in the mid-late 80's... but that was because of the unlikely conjunction of the Reagan/Meese administration and the loudness of McKinnon/Dworkin feminism making it in their best interest to avoid feeding the argument that Porn Causes Rape. "Teen Girl" themes were chilled by the Traci Lords scandal, who turned out she REALLY was between 15 and 17 when doing her pornos. But guess what? "Rough" porn and "schoolgirl" porn have stuck around and are available in the good ol' USA.

[Mighty_Girl]

I am so with you, Lamia, and sadly there are women who would call "consenting to sex when you're not really in the mood just to make your spouse happy" rape, which is stupid, disingenuous, and divisive, IMHO.We;ve seem to have stretched the word "rape" to now include "sex that I didn't enjoy". Not a good thing. There are and have been plenty million of women throughout the world that have never enjoyed sex yet have consented to have sex with their spouses. Sex without consent is rape. Sex without pleasure is just lousy sex.

[MelCthefirst]

We;ve seem to have stretched the word "rape" to now include "sex that I didn't enjoy". Not a good thing. There are and have been plenty million of women throughout the world that have never enjoyed sex yet have consented to have sex with their spouses. Sex without consent is rape. Sex without pleasure is just lousy sex.
This topic probably needs a thread of its own. Rape within marriage is a can of worms when you try to define it. Sometimes it is obviously rape and sometimes not. I agree that sex without pleasure is just lousy sex, but I was not refering to this. Within marriage, some women consent to have sex with their husbands even though they don't want to. The reasons why they consent can be quite varied. To consent is usually the path of least resistance. Women can be emotionally abused and scared of their partner and see the best way to deal with the man, for them, is to consent, some women have such poor self-esteem or inexperience that they don't realise they can say no etc. etc.
Also, I was not refering to all Japanese women and tried to qualify my statement. We give value and understanding to words and people differ in their understanding of them in other cultures and subcultures. Therefore it is quite conceivable that a Japanese woman may view stranger, violent, non-consentual sex as 'rape', but not if it is non-violent, legal and with her husband.

[owlofcreamcheese]

your not allowed to show a penis in a vagina in porn in japan.

lacking that what do you have for a porn? people sitting around for an hour?

well... lets just have something thats like a penis... but NOT... like... a suspeciously penis like monster parts!

but are monsters sexy? not really, they are scary... and they attack people.

what is it called when someone attacks you and has sex with you? rape.

[Tentacle Monster]

owlofcreamcheese: You know that medication? Take a pen and, where it says "Do not drive or use heavy machinery after use" add "or use a keyboard".

I hope that's the explanation behind that post.

[Earl of the CC]

It's a documented fact that aggresive pornography increases agression towards women. In the laboratory setting at least. Wayne Weiten sums it up.

"Studies indicate that this type of material (rape porn) increases male subjects' aggressive behavior toward women, at least in the context of the research laboratory (Donnerstein & Malamuth, 1997; Zillmann & Weaver, 1989). In the typical study, male subjects work on a laboratory task and are led to believe (falsely) that they are delivering electric shocks to other subjects. In this situation, their aggresion toward females tends to be elevated after exposure to aggressive pornography. Exposure to aggressive pornography may also make sexual coercion seem less offensive and may desensitize males to sexual violence (Mullin & Linz, 1995). In particular, it helps perpetuate the myth that women enjoy being raped and ravaged (allen et al., 1995)."

These are facts people. Rape is a crime of violence and control. It pretty much (barring a few odd cases) requires aggression toward women. Rape porn demonstratably ups aggression towards women.

Of course, the effect isn't universal and of course it takes a special kind to be pushed to the point where they'll get and up and rape someone when they wouldn't have before. There are people who are mentally sound enough to watch rape porn and not be negatively affected by it. And then again there are a lot of people who aren't.

If somebody could put forth a realistic way of filtering out those who would be affected by it in a bad way, I'd have no problem with rape porn. I haven't seen that solution, nor is anything like it implemented now, so I am against it.

[Miller]

If somebody could put forth a realistic way of filtering out those who would be affected by it in a bad way, I'd have no problem with rape porn. I haven't seen that solution, nor is anything like it implemented now, so I am against it.

Some people habitually overconsume alcohol and drive recklessly or become violent. Should we ban all alcohol until we can put forth a realisitc way of filtering out those who are predisposed to alcoholism? Some people use religion as an excuse to commit violence against others. Should we ban religion until we can figure out a way of detecting people who are predisposed to zealotry? Some people read Catcher in the Rye and believe it wants them to shoot a member of the Beatles. Should we ban J.D. Salinger until Paul and Ringo finally kick off? If someone commits a crime, then you puish the criminal. You don't punish people who happen to have the same hobbies.

It's also worth pointing out that one study does not a scientific consensus make. There are many other studies that found no correlation between exposure to pornography and violence towards women. The issue is far from settled.

[pokey]

I don't want to start a tangent but what about "reality" type porn where the whole point is to make it like the girls don't like it, like they got in over their heads but too bad, they took the hundred bucks so they can't say no now. Most of those sites do have disclaimers if you look for them but the whole idea is that you are getting to see girls have a terrible time and wish they could go home but too bad for them. Does everyone who feels comfortable with rape porn feel comfortable with that? There was a thread on this board about whether or not bangbus is real and I know guys who think that these types of sites are real and that the girls are forced. It doesn't stop them from looking at them.

[Earl of the CC]

Some people habitually overconsume alcohol and drive recklessly or become violent. Should we ban all alcohol until we can put forth a realisitc way of filtering out those who are predisposed to alcoholism? Some people use religion as an excuse to commit violence against others. Should we ban religion until we can figure out a way of detecting people who are predisposed to zealotry? Some people read Catcher in the Rye and believe it wants them to shoot a member of the Beatles. Should we ban J.D. Salinger until Paul and Ringo finally kick off? If someone commits a crime, then you puish the criminal. You don't punish people who happen to have the same hobbies.

It's also worth pointing out that one study does not a scientific consensus make. There are many other studies that found no correlation between exposure to pornography and violence towards women. The issue is far from settled.


Your first 2 examples have nothing to do with art. Your last one was done by a man who was clearly nowhere approaching sanity. These are apples and oranges.

As for the studies that find no correlation, I haven't seen them, but I'm willing to read them. Got some examples?

[DeaganTheWolf]

Allrighty. Just so I'd know what I'd seen I borrowed a copy of Bible Black from a friend who collects anime and hentai. FUCKING RELAX! Jesus it wasn't even a decent hentai, much less what I'd call an obscene or over the line one. I've seen MUCH MUCH worse. You can find plenty of material out there that is FAR more bizzare then that. I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's an exploration of the bizzarre. A hermaphrodite is exciting because it has the sexual attractiveness of a female while also possesing the dominant power factor of having a male organ, usually an impossibly large one. Beyond that the herm can experiance orgasm form both sexual organs simultaneously, a sort of dominance and submission all at once. Hell i've seen females with Giant cock like clits "rape" other females in anime. The imagery is OBVIOUS. It's a total power fantasy, and that in and of itself is NOT a bad thing. My S.O. and I routinely trade off dominence rolls during sex. Occasionally I'll get extra aggressive, and so will she. Rough sex can be FUN. Power trips can be FUN. Relax. We all need to feel importance and power occasionally. These fantasies are harmless! The people who act upon such urges have serious psycological problems that existed before they viewed an damn CARTOON.

[Sublight]

Your last one was done by a man who was clearly nowhere approaching sanity. These are apples and oranges.

I disagree. The kind of person who would rape a woman because of an animated movie is just about as far from sanity as someone who thinks that a book is instructing him to kill people.

[blowero]

"Studies indicate that this type of material (rape porn) increases male subjects' aggressive behavior toward women, at least in the context of the research laboratory (Donnerstein & Malamuth, 1997; Zillmann & Weaver, 1989).
But Malamuth also says that this effect is not shown outside the laboratory:
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/commstudies/faculty/malamuth/pdf/ency2001.pdf

...the correlational data for attitudes in naturalistic settings did not yield supportive data for the conclusions emerging from the experimental studies conducted in controlled settings.

Besides which, these studies have exactly fuck all to do with whether rape porn causes men to rape. Here's the methodology of one of them:
http://www.asc.upenn.edu/usr/chunter/porn_effects.html#aggression
Malamuth (1978) conducted a study using three male experimental conditions. One group would read aggressive pornography (depicting a rape), one nonaggressive pornography (loving interaction between a man and woman), and the third neutral stimuli (National Geographic articles). After exposure, all subjects were insulted by a female and were then put in a situation where they could aggress against this woman via the ostensible delivery of electric shocks. Half of the group was told it was permissible to be as aggressive as they wished (disinhibitory communication), while the other half were given a message to make them self conscious about aggression (inhibitory communication).

No results were found in the inhibitory group, but in the disinhibitory group the highest levels of aggression were recorded for those who had been exposed to the aggressive pornography.

So this study showed that men, when deliberately insulted by a woman and then encouraged to administer electric shocks to the woman, shocked the women somewhat more after being exposed to rape pornography. I'd bet you would get the same result showing them a violent movie like Die Hard or Pulp Fiction. Why were the controls "nonaggressive pornography" and "neutral stimuli", but no non-sexual violent stimuli?

In fact, when a study was done that controlled for non-sexual violent stimuli, this conclusion was reached:

This leads Donnerstein to again conclude that violent pornography is related to aggression against women, but that this may be a factor of the violence in the film, not its sexual content

And again, not the slightest hint of evidence that rape porn causes rape.

Here's another study regarding "densensitization":

In one study, Donnerstein and Linz (1985) showed 10 hours of R-rated slasher films, X-rated violent pornography, and X-rated nonviolent pornography to male subjects over the course of 5 days. The study found that the R-rated slasher films produced the greatest desensitization:

Initially, after the first day of viewing, the men rated themselves as significantly above the norm for depression, anxiety, and annoyance on a mood adjective checklist. After each subsequent day of viewing, these scores dropped until, on the fourth day of viewing, the males' levels of anxiety, depression, and annoyance were indistinguishable from baseline norms. (p. 34F).

Does anyone think that proves anything other than if you watch something over and over, it will have less impact?

They're certainly interesting studies, but like you said, they show, at most, that aggressive behavior and/or attitudes can be influenced somewhat by massive exposure to pornography, and/or depictions of violence, under controlled conditions. There's no evidence that pornography causes any real cases of crime against women.

Earl:

These are facts people. Rape is a crime of violence and control. It pretty much (barring a few odd cases) requires aggression toward women. Rape porn demonstratably ups aggression towards women.

This is disingenuous; you're trying to imply that rape porn causes rape without actually saying it, and using tortured reasoning. Rape may require aggression (although this is a strange way of putting it; it's actually pretty much defined as aggression), but aggression does not require rape. Aggression and rape are not the same thing. If a man is mad at a woman and gives her an electric shock (which action is sanctioned by those running the experiment), you are stretching things beyond the absurd to suggest that in any way proves he might rape her.

[Sublight]

As for the studies that find no correlation, I haven't seen them, but I'm willing to read them. Got some examples?
This is a pretty interesting read:
http://www.apa.org/divisions/div46/articles/linz.pdf

Interesting, authored by two of the researchers you cited (Linz and Malamuth)

Doesn't say that there isn't any correlation (although the only long-term study (Malamuth & Ceniti, 1986) found none), but it does pretty strongly indicate that anyone claiming that a proven link one way or another is using studies with very flawed methodology or is filtering the results through their own ideology.

[Sublight]

Make that "...anyone claiming that a proven link exists..."

[kabbes]

Latest twist: family of teacher who was killed by rape fantasist calls for banning of rape sites on internet (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3460855.stm)FWIW, I think they're barking up the wrong tree, both for the reasons cited in this thread and also because trying to ban anything on the internet is like trying to squeeze gravy.

But I can understand why these devastated people would seek something to blame.

pan

[R@inDog]

So, you guys know what the solution is, don't you? Ban porn. Not just "rape porn," but every flavor of hentai, girl-on-girl/guy-on-guy (esp. in Ohio), and any and all sex videos. Anything that "titillates but doesn't educate," encourages the dominance or objectivication of women, or otherwise doesn't depict the sexual act as a natual congress between a married straight couple for the express purpose of procreation, as god intended. Actually, you probably shouldn't depict that either, as it will undoubtedly be seen as exciting to someone...

Next up is violence. My god the violence in movies and TV! And look at how violent a society we are because of it! We gotta get rid of that, too. All of it. There's really no excuse for it.

And, really, conflict of any kind. Conflict certainly can't be good. Look how much arguing there is in the world! If we put a ban on depicting people crying, arguing, or otherwise showing an unnatural negative emotion in our media, perhaps we will stamp such negative "ideas" from our society!

Quiet on the set!

[EMILY, dressed in a frock and bonnet, enters the room. Her husband of 20 years, DAVID, looks up from where he's sitting quietly and nods to her.]

DAVID: Hello, my wife of 20 years. How was your day?

EMILY [sitting down across from her husband, their knees 10 feet from each others]: Fine, and how was yours?

DAVID: Oh. Fine.

[EMILY and DAVID stare at each other pleasantly for 90 minutes. Fade to black.]

Now that's decent, wholesome cinema!

[Sorry. Censorship of any kind is a button issue with me, as are the creepy type of people who want to define where we're allowed to point our imaginations.]

[blowero]

I'm going to have to agree with this and say that Japan actually has a lot more rape victims than are officially known.

I lived in Japan for awhile, and while I think things are getting better for women there, it seems like they still have quite a ways to go. I think that's one of the problems of having such a homogenous society; change tends to come too slowly.

Now, on the flip side, I must admit that I get off on reading comics that feature males raping males. It is rather strange and I don't understand it myself, especially since male on female rape disturbs me very much. I do not enjoy rape in real life at all (my boyfriend was almost raped) and I think that anyone who tries to rape anyone should be put away for a very long time, but I do find these comics very erotic. I put myself in the place of the victim most of the time too. I do not think that watching/reading things that involve rape make a person more likely to go out and rape unless they are already likely to do so.

Yes - I think that's the point that several posters were trying to make here. What arouses us can be very complicated and tricky. Maybe male-on-male rape turns you on because you subconsciously want to see men punished for what some men have done to women. Or maybe not - who knows? The point is that it's a fantasy - you don't really want it to happen.

[R@inDog]

And it's not just that it's a fantasy, blowero, but that one person's fantasy is another's repellant act. Hentai? Might as well talk about gay porn movies, too, because some people consider them to be far more degerate and morally corrupt than any simulated rape porn out there. Others simply consider porn in general to be the devil's toolkit (what with the socket wrench, screwdriver, and all that other suggestive hardware).

Really, though, any hentai is arguably much much more ethically neutral than the porn we all know and love in the U.S. As more than a few have pointed out, they are fucking cartoons. (Or cartoons fucking--yeah, yeah.) "Live" porn, on the other hand, uses real people in typically soul-crushing conditions for producers who typically never had a soul in the first place.

What really confuses me are the people who see something like Bible Black, call it disgusting, but in explaining why make it evident that they watched the whole thing. Huh? When you drink a glass of soured milk, do you choke down the rest to--what?--make sure? (I think it's for the ammunition to be a self-righteous prick, but the possibilities are endless...)

Hentai is generally not my cup of tea, either, but get a grip: Your Puritan heritage is showing.

[This is my 12th post in over a year? And twice in this one thread? And not even directly on topic, and meandering at that? Maybe I need to work out some issues... can I borrow $10,000 for therapy? Anyone?)

[Evil Captor]

Given the various other factors that have to be taken into account, the correlation between the vibrant Japanese porn industry and the low incidence of rape in Japan doesn't mean much, by itself. Personally, though, I think there's a low incidence of rape in Japan despite the porn industry rather than because of it.

It would certainly constitute evidence that rape porn isn't ENCOURAGING Real Life rape in Japan, as some people here seem to think it would.

[Airman Doors, USAF]

Weebl and Bob's contribution to the discussion. (http://www.weebl.jolt.co.uk/hentai.htm)

[Evil Captor]

Well, I like hentai, not so much because of the rape but because of the sexual bondage, and the fact that they have plots, and sometimes they are beautifully illustrated, and because they are capable of surprising me in many ways.

If you look at hentai as what they are, they're a lot stranger than just "animated porn" and a lot more interesting. Japanese culture is fascinating, I really enjoy finding out more about it and I generally like the Japanese, but I would not want to be Japanese.

Generally, I think almost any sexual fantasy is OK, so long as it's recognized as a fantasy by the fantasizer. I don't think sexual fantasies come from any rational part of the human mind, and it's not fair to hold people to account for having sexual fantasies. You can hold people to account for acting those sexual fantasies in a nonconsensual manner, but I think people have to be free at least in their own minds and in their ability to communicate what's in their minds, if you are going to have a healthy society.

[Thinks2Much]

Thanks a lot. I am dying of curiosity now to know what is so awful about Waita Uziga but I am at work and can't look! Can someone put up a spoiler of what it is, in as simplistic terms as possible - such as it involves animals, children, necrophelia, or monsters or whatever? Please? I'll owe you one!

As for on topic, I am a (female) rape victim (17 years ago now and largely recovered, though) and for some reason I am not opposed to hentai. I wouldn't say I am exactly a fan, but what I have run across on the internet, I have found more stimulating than repulsive. Live action rape is repulsive to me, though. I am going to have to side with Deagan The Wolf here that it is fantasy and just different.

[Tentacle Monster]

Basically, it features (drawn) women being mutilated, tortured, and killed in just about any way you can imagine, and any way you can't imagine. The title of the site is Uziga's Deadly Joy, which implies that, yes, people beat off to it.

[Cervaise]

[EMILY, dressed in a frock and bonnet, enters the room. Her husband of 20 years, DAVID, looks up from where he's sitting quietly and nods to her.]Oh... Oh yeah, that's hot... Oh yeah... Don't stop... --rub rub rub--

[Thinks2Much]

Thank you, Tentacle Monster. Then I don't need to see it when I get home. That I can do without. :eek:

[Lamia]

If you look at hentai as what they are, they're a lot stranger than just "animated porn" and a lot more interesting. Japanese culture is fascinating, I really enjoy finding out more about it and I generally like the Japanese, but I would not want to be Japanese.


It's good to be interested in foreign culture, but I hope you're not one of the people who has made the mistake of thinking they can understand Japan and the Japanese by watching Japanese animated porn, or Japanese anime in general. I have met far, far too many people who are laboring under the mistaken idea that having seen Legend of the Overfiend or every episode of Sailor Moon makes them some sort of cultural expert.

These people often develop very strange and incorrect ideas about Japanese culture because their only "facts" come from fringe entertainment. For instance, I knew one American woman who sincerely believed that it was common for Japanese teenagers to live in apartments alone without their parents. Why? Because it happens all the time in anime! I had to explain to her that anime parents are the same place Charlie Brown's parents are -- conveniently out of the picture to allow the kids to have adventures. It has nothing to do with the living arrangements of real people.

Now, this may not be applicable to you at all Evil Captor -- for all I know you actually are an expert on Japan, or at least know that you can't become one by watching videos alone. But since others in this thread, especially the OP, have made the mistake of judging an entire nation of people based solely on its extreme pornography I felt I should take the opportunity to say something.

[Evil Captor]

It's good to be interested in foreign culture, but I hope you're not one of the people who has made the mistake of thinking they can understand Japan and the Japanese by watching Japanese animated porn, or Japanese anime in general.

Actually, what watching Japanese anime and hentai has convinced me of is that there's a heck of a lot I don't know about Japanese culture.

[Lamia]

Actually, what watching Japanese anime and hentai has convinced me of is that there's a heck of a lot I don't know about Japanese culture.

If it makes you feel any better, plenty of Japanese people are puzzled by Japanese anime. On the innocent side of things, no one seems to know what sort of animal Drimon is supposed to be, and he's one of the most popular cartoon characters in the country. When it comes to less mainstream entertainment, well, some of it really is just weird.

[TPWombat]

Weebl and Bob's contribution to the discussion. (http://www.weebl.jolt.co.uk/hentai.htm)

Thanks, Airman :D