Bitching about Cops trying to NOT kill someone

[kinoons]

http://www.kvvu.com/Global/story.asp?s=%20%201658364

The family is super upset because a man was tased, and died. It has not been established if the taser was the cause of death. But lets cut to the chase here...

Its called less lethal force for a reason asshat! If you are not following the directions of the police, you are just asking for a whoopin. If it takes 10 people to hold you down, you are asking for a serious whoopin. Less lethal just implies that you are less likely to die from it, Not that it is totally safe and will not hurt you. Given the choice of being tased, or being shot, light me up! Under the wrong circumstances, I am sure a taser will kill someone, but your chances are a lot better than being shot.

Until we come up with some totally beguine stun type weapon (where is star trek when you need it?) some people are going to be killed when subdued by the police. Does it suck? yes, but we are getting better at not killing people. Next time, do what you're told. If your loved one is unable, or unwilling to do so, don't be surprised when they get tased, maced, or otherwise taken down, and then thank the officer for not beating the piss out of them, or worse.

[Master Wang-Ka]

Hm.

In the absence of reliable, unprejudiced witnesses, I can't give you a straight answer.

I'm thinking of one recent case where six cops struggled with a 400-lb. guy who'd been smoking crack, and acting very bizarre in a restaurant parking lot. The owner called the cops, and the cops felt that the guy should come downtown with them. The guy didn't wanna, and he was fighting like a bastard... all the way up until his heart attack and subsequent death. The family screamed bloody murder. Me, if I'd been one of the cops, I'd figure I deserved a medal for not shooting the guy the minute he busted me upside the chops.

I am also thinking of another recent case where some college kids invaded the premises of a business and conducted a "sit-down strike" to disrupt the business. The police were called, and they ordered the kids to leave the premises. The kids were sitting, with arms linked, and refused, but announced they would not fight, either, so the cops couldn't charge them with assaulting officers.

So the cops maced them. I felt this was excessive; any cop who can't handle an unresisting PETA member needs to rethink his career options.

So... in the situation in the OP, if the guy was fighting like a bastard, and the cops figured they'd hit him with the taser rather than take lumps from him, then I'm inclined to think "tough bananas, Mr. Suspect. You mess with the bull, you get the horns."

On the other hand, if he wasn't putting up a fight and the cops were just curious what their new toy would, like, DO to a guy, then prosecute the cops. Hard.

[Cheesesteak]

So the cops maced them. I felt this was excessive; any cop who can't handle an unresisting PETA member needs to rethink his career options.In this case, I'd say it was the right thing to do. Just because you're not being violent, doesn't mean you're not breaking the law, and it doesn't mean you shouldn't be stopped. Not attacking the police isn't the same thing as not resisting arrest. Linking arms and holding tight is resisting, and officers shouldn't have to engage in a wrestling match to try and get you cuffed.

They went into the situation fully intending to resist arrest. Resist arrest, and you risk the nightstick, pepper spray, tasing, and even a bullet.

It would have been interesting if the police tased, or threatened to tase this group. I wonder if a person's neighbor would let go if they knew a tasing was imminent...

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

So... in the situation in the OP, if the guy was fighting like a bastard, and the cops figured they'd hit him with the taser rather than take lumps from him, then I'm inclined to think "tough bananas, Mr. Suspect. You mess with the bull, you get the horns." The linked story states: Police say as many as 11 officers struggled with Lomax, four security officers, six paramedics, and a Metro officer. If 22 people couldn't control this guy, I don't see what else they could have done.

Of course, if you're Fox News, you write it up for maximum sob story value, with a decided slant (toward the family's side).

[Airman Doors, USAF]

That's funny, EddyTeddyFreddy. I thought Fox News was a shill for the Republicans, and according to everything I read here, Republicans are hardly concerned about criminals' well-being. In fact, they're the "Damned liberal judges letting criminals go free" party.

I think you got Fox and CNN confused there.

[smiling bandit]

Heh. Fox is after ratings, and it sees a hole in television media coverage according to political slant. But it's still mostly after ratings. I can't accurately judge which side the reporter was on, myself.

[Hamlet]

In the absence of reliable, unprejudiced witnesses, I can't give you a straight answer.
If you had said, "In the absence of a report from reliable, unprejudiced witnesses" I probably wouldn't be posting, but there seems to be at least 11 witnesses to the events of that night. Now I know that you probably will discount the statements of all 11 because.... well, why would you? Because some are police? Paramedics? Security officers? Those people cannot be reliable? They must be prejudiced? The automatic discounting of statements of witnesses only goes to highlight your own prejudice.

As to the OP, I think it's irresponsible to take a side, any side, without having information enough to make a proper judgment. We know next to nothing about this ordeal, and it's just to early to make a determination that the officers were to blame, or that the family is a bunch of whiners. Maybe when they release the witnesses statements, the autopsy is completed, and the full story comes out, then we can start bitching. Until then, it's naught but hot air.

As an aside, this report (http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1662679&nav=168XL1vm) had this to say about the use of Tasers: From August to February, Metro officers used taser guns 128 times. 14 suspects were injured and required hospitalization and 53 suspects needed some type of first aid. Metro says there were no serious injuries.

[Jimmy Joe Meager]

Until we come up with some totally beguine stun type weapon.... I have nothing constructive to add to the argument, but I must point out that this statement is quite funny. Although I suspect you meant "benign", if you look up the word "beguine" you'll see why I chuckle. Cole Porter was a songwriter, not a weapon designer.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

That's funny, EddyTeddyFreddy. I thought Fox News was a shill for the Republicans, and according to everything I read here, Republicans are hardly concerned about criminals' well-being. In fact, they're the "Damned liberal judges letting criminals go free" party. I was a bit surprised by the story's slant, too, but since Fox plays to emotions ("If it bleeds, it leads!") as much as to its political agenda, I can see why this story is getting a spin towards the family. Consider the two lead paragraphs: A 25-year-old man is dead after officers used a taser gun on him. Was it excessive force or justifiable? The man's family wants answers and tonight they say they are being stonewalled.

A family is in limbo tonight. The father and the brother they knew is gone, and at least one member of the family says she's sure security officers went way too far. Just throbbing with shock, shock, isn't it? Plus, it's throwing the blame on the security officers, not the police. So, yeh, I can see Fox whipping up the drama over this.

I think you got Fox and CNN confused there. Ye gods, man! I never drink before noon! ;)

[Anonymous Coward]

[QUOTE=Master Wang-Ka]
So the cops maced them. I felt this was excessive; any cop who can't handle an unresisting PETA member needs to rethink his career options.

[QUOTE]


I wonder if the pepper spray was organic?

[Master Wang-Ka]

When I said "reliable, unprejudiced witnesses," I wasn't talking about the cops. I was talking about the reportage. That story's slanted so hard, I had to turn my head sideways to read it.

Secondly, after working in several mental institutions and restraining more than a few raging psychos, I can tell you with some authority that there is not enough room on your average human to fit 22 people, all trying to restrain him.

Not unless all the cops in question were midgets.

True, one can dogpile the guy, if you regard this as an acceptable restraint method. Theoretically, you could fit an infinite number of cops on him that way.

...and if this crazy bugger could still move while there were 22 cops on him, the cops shouldn't have used a taser. They should have used an elephant gun.

I also still question the wisdom of macing an unresisting suspect. Once you've maced him, is he going to be any easier to pick up and carry?

[Myrr21]

. Now I know that you probably will discount the statements of all 11 because.... well, why would you? Because some are police? Paramedics? Security officers? Those people cannot be reliable? They must be prejudiced?

Those 11 are by definition prejudiced because they stand to go to jail if excessive force was used. It doesn't mean they're bad people or anything, but they absolutely must be regarded as prejudiced in any investigation as to whether they're guilty. Likewise, had the guy not died but recovered, he would also be considered prejudiced.

[PunditLisa]

I'm thinking of one recent case where six cops struggled with a 400-lb. guy who'd been smoking crack, and acting very bizarre in a restaurant parking lot. The owner called the cops, and the cops felt that the guy should come downtown with them. The guy didn't wanna, and he was fighting like a bastard... all the way up until his heart attack and subsequent death.

Yup. That happened here at a White Castle parking lot (gosh, could it have been the onions?) in good ole Cincinnati, a town where the cops have a long history of being quick with the trigger finger in re to suspects. The cops, for once, show restraint, and the dude dies of a heart attack.

Were it not so tragic, it'd be freaking comedic.

The family screamed bloody murder. Me, if I'd been one of the cops, I'd figure I deserved a medal for not shooting the guy the minute he busted me upside the chops.

Actually, IIRC, the family acted with a fair amount of grace. I believe the suspect's grandmother called for calm and said that an investigation needed to be carried out before jumping to conclusions. It was a few militant blacks, who have made a career out of bitching and moaning about the police and city administration, who screamed bloody murder.

[Bear_Nenno]

I also still question the wisdom of macing an unresisting suspect. Once you've maced him, is he going to be any easier to pick up and carry?He's going to be much easier to handle. Before he was pepper sprayed, he was concentrating on resisting. Afterwards, he can only think about his burning face and inability to breath.

Verbal resistance is still resisting. If an officer says "Sir, come with me." and the suspect says "NO". That is resisting. I'm sure it varies by jurisdiction, but around here, that is all it takes to be sprayed!

The PETA scenario is actually used in the academy. The protestors were not physically fighting, just passive resistance. My partner and I spent 20 mins looking like fools for trying to pursuade the protestors and then use physical force to pry them apart, pick them up and then carry them out of the room. The protestors were not physically fighting, just passive resistance. Afterwards, the instructor was like "Instead of expelling all that energy and wasting all that time, why did you not just wipe some pepperspray under their eyes and nose" (spraying indoors would effect the entire room and the business. swabbing would localize the effects to each protestor)
Anyway.... pepperspray is a good tool to gain compliance. Pepperspray is NEVER excessive force. If someone does not comply, spray his ass...

[Typo Negative]

Anyway.... pepperspray is a good tool to gain compliance. Pepperspray is NEVER excessive force. If someone does not comply, spray his ass...
I was thinking that the pepper spray was a much better option than whacking them on the arms with billy clubs.

Think about it: If you've broken in with your buddies and locked arms, you've made a physical confrontation inevitable. I mean, the cops have to remove you...

[netscape 6]

So inflicting intense pain for a NONVIOLANT protest was preferable to bringing in couple of the more burley officers to pry them apart and letting the courts decide the punishment?

[Typo Negative]

Getting them apart is going to cause some pain.

And maybe, just maybe, they need cops in other areas of the city to protect and serve. It's not like they have an unlimited supply. If they bring in cops from elsewhere, elsewhere is unprotected.

[netscape 6]

More pain then pepper spray?

You ever been pepper sprayed? I have once. My cousine thought it would be a funny joke. It as funny all right. It was so funny it had me rolling on the floor in tears and gasping for air for what seemed like an eternity. Punching them in the gut would have been less brutal.

[SPOOFE]

Ye gods, man! I never drink before noon!
There's your problem right there, buddy...

[hightechburrito]

I recall seeing something very similar this on a Real TV type thing, but I think it was in the office of a logging company.

Basically, it went like this:

1) People come into the office and link arms through pipes.

2) Police come and tell them if they leave right away, nothing will happen.

3) They don't leave, and are told they are under arrest, and need to get up.

4) The police tell them that they will rub pepper spray under their eyes and nose if they don't get up.

5) They refuse, and are pepper sprayed.

It wans't like the police charged in and immediately maced them, they were given ample opportunity to leave peacefully.

[Typo Negative]

More pain then pepper spray?

You ever been pepper sprayed? <snip>. Punching them in the gut would have been less brutal.
You know how the could avoid pain altogether? They could surrender and move when they are told to move. No pain at all, that way. Everybody's happy!

But thing is, they don't want that. They want the violence. (wrestling them apart is still violent) How else are they gonna get on TV?

The pepper spray does hurt. But it does no lasting damage.

[WILLASS]

Police say as many as 11 officers struggled with Lomax, four security officers, six paramedics, and a Metro officer.

I took this to mean that the 11 officers comprised of 4 security, 6 paramedics and a Metro officer as i'm pretty sure that 22 people would not show up to tackle 1 guy or even be able to struggle with him if they did unless they took it in turns.