Judas done the right thing?

[saluki_fan]

It seems to me that when times get rough or they are searching for some inspiration they always seem to say "you can't change your future." If that person, or religion, believed that philosophy; wouldn't that mean that Judas did exactly what he was supposed to do. I mean even Jesus himself says he was sent to earth to atone for our sins, right? So if everybody has a predetermined destiny by god, whether it be priest, lawyer, doctor, etc, wouldn't that mean Judas did the right thing. I can go on more, but I think everybody sees where this is going. Here's another noodle scratcher for you: If Judas did fulfill his destiny, this making Jesus words true, then would he be resting in Heaven or Hell?

[photopat]

If one believes in predestination and a just god, it seems to follow that Judas would be in Heaven, since he had no choice and in fact his actions were necessary for Jesus to carry out his mission. He was essentially a vessel for god's work.

Mind you, I don't believe any of it anyway, but it seems like that's how it would be the story were all true.

[Siege]

This is an interesting topic, and one I've played around with myself a bit, to the point of writing an essay from the point of view of Judas. (It appeared in my church's newsletter the day I left the country for a week!;)) Judas' betrayal of Christ was necessary for Christianity to come about. I'm also certain, based on my reading of the Gospels, that Jesus knew what Judas would do. My own theory is that Judas was trying to force Christ's hand, as it were and get Him to act in what Judas thought was a Messiah-like fashion which probably included performing major, showy miracles and generally kicking Roman butt. Instead, Christ allowed Himself to be arrested and shamed. While it's easy to portray Judas as a villain, without him, there would be story to tell, for without Christ's death, there is no resurrection. Without Good Friday, there is no Easter, just another itinerrant rabbi.

As to whether Judas is in heaven or hell, remember, as far as I'm concerned Christ knew what he would do and what would result. While one could argue that Judas followed his own desires rather than God's, or at least what Christ may have given the impression He desired, ultimately, through Judas' actions, God's will was done. In short, my vote's for heaven.

I'm interested in reading other people's responses.
CJ

[BrainGlutton]

Of course Judas did the right thing -- not by willy-nilly serving Jesus' agenda, but by betraying him. As Leon Rosselson put it in his classic "Stand Up for Judas":


The Romans were the masters when Jesus walked the land
In Judea and in Galilee they ruled with an iron hand
And the poor were sick with hunger and the rich were clothed in splendour
And the rebels whipped and crucified hung rotting as a warning
And Jesus knew the answer
Said, Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, said, Love your enemies
But Judas was a Zealot and he wanted to be free
Resist, he said, The Romans' tyranny

Chorus:
So stand up, stand up for Judas and the cause that Judas served
It was Jesus who betrayed the poor with his word

Jesus was a conjuror, miracles were his game
And he fed the hungry thousands and they glorified his name
He cured the lame and the lepers, he calmed the wind and the weather
And the wretched flocked to touch him so their troubles would be taken
And Jesus knew the answer
All you who labour, all you who suffer only believe in me
But Judas sought a world where no one starved or begged for bread
The poor are always with us, Jesus said

(Chorus)

Now Jesus brought division where none had been before
Not the slaves against their masters but the poor against the poor
Set son to rise up against father, and brother to fight against brother
For he that is not with me is against me, was his teaching
Said Jesus, I am the answer
You unbelievers shall burn forever, shall die in your sins
Not sheep and goats, said Judas, But together we may dare
Shake off the chains of misery we share

(Chorus)

Jesus stood upon the mountain with a distance in his eyes
I am the way, the life, he cried, The light that never dies
So renounce all earthly treasures and pray to your heavenly father
And he pacified the hopeless with the hope of life eternal
Said Jesus, I am the answer
And you who hunger only remember your reward's in Heaven
So Jesus preached the other world but Judas wanted this
And he betrayed his master with a kiss

(Chorus)

By sword and gun and crucifix Christ's gospel has been spread
And 2.000 cruel years have shown the way that Jesus led
The heretics burned and tortured, and the butchering, bloody crusaders
The bombs and rockets sanctified that rain down death from heaven
They followed Jesus, they knew the answer
All non-believers must be believers or else be broken
So put no trust in Saviours, Judas said, For everyone
Must be to his or her own self - a sun

(Chorus)



STAND UP FOR JUDAS!

[dangermom]

I rather think that Jesus would have been arrested by the Romans, or killed somehow or other, without Judas' help sooner or later. I do not believe that Judas himself was necessary to Christianity.

To me, it is not a question of eventual consequences--although it turned out in the end that Judas' betrayal led Christ to the sacrifice he had to make, Judas didn't know that AFAIK. He wasn't doing it for love of the world and because he knew that it had to be done; he betrayed his friend and rabbi for money. Why exactly I don't know, but it doesn't seem to me that it was for benevolent reasons. Then again, it isn't my job to decide these things (thank goodness)--but I have a hard time thinking of Judas as a reluctant hero.

God, it seems, can turn many sins to eventual good. That does not mean that the sins were a good idea in the first place.

[Apos]

Juduas, by some accounts, committed suicide, so that's straight to hell for him no matter what, by many traditions.

[Necro Romancer]

Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!


post minimum ho!

[Triskadecamus]

The consideration of whether Judas was in some way a more despicable sinner than say, Peter, or I, involves the assumption that one of us is less of a sinner than the other. I find that logic to be entirely based on human evaluation of the souls of other humans.

I think Peter sinned. I think that he knew it, too. I know that I have sinned, and I find it likely that Judas sinned as well. But you see, sin is not the point of the story. Forgiveness, and redemption, and salvation by the Grace of God are the point of the story.

Please be assured that I find betrayal to be undesirable behavior from a human perspective, and I would have been angry at Judas, had I been among the disciples. But after we all abandoned our Savior to the derision and murder of the mob, we stopped having the right to judge Judas. Or anyone else.

May I put down my stone, please?

Tris

[FuzzyWuzzy06]

This subject is quite interesting... There is much debate about whether or not Judas actually "betrayed" Jesus. There is some speculation that Jesus chose Judas to hand him over. Judas was said to be one of Jesus's favorite, or most trusted, or loved... one of those... Im not sure what word the gospels use. He was also the "treasurer" of the group, and back in those times a fee was always paid for such a transaction... hence another reason we Judas would be the one handing Jesus over. Also, about his suicide... there is speculation that it was not out of guilt, but out of Judas's want to recieve the same fate as Jesus... kinda like dieing with/ for your leader.

This whole issue was discussed on the History Channel during Christmas... any one else see it?

[emarkp]

My own theory is that Judas was trying to force Christ's hand, as it were and get Him to act in what Judas thought was a Messiah-like fashion which probably included performing major, showy miracles and generally kicking Roman butt.So basically, he was trying to accomplish God's work by "steadying the ark". In the old days, God struck people dead on the spot for that kind of infraction. Not exactly a shining endorsement.

While it's easy to portray Judas as a villain, without him, there would be story to tellBaloney. Jesus would have been slain with or without Judas.

The scriptural evidence is that Jesus condemned Judas' action (Matt 26:24, Mark 14:21, Luke 22:22) and that Judas was clearly convicted of conscience (Matt 27:4). The straight reading of the text is that Judas was not doing God's will. It requires a great deal of rhetoric to arrive at your conclusion which is the opposite of what scripture says. I'm willing to give Judas the benefit of the doubt (who knows his mental state when he betrayed Jesus--and it's not my place to condemn him), but it takes tremendous leaps of logic to conclude that he's in Heaven.

[Triskadecamus]

I'm willing to give Judas the benefit of the doubt (who knows his mental state when he betrayed Jesus--and it's not my place to condemn him), but it takes tremendous leaps of logic to conclude that he's in Heaven.I don't thnk a leap of logic would do it. It would take a miracle.

Tris

[blowero]

Let me preface this by saying I neither believe in God nor the resurrection story. But I've looked at enough of these debates that I think I can play devil's advocate, so to speak, and explain why Judas' actions were wrong. It's my understanding that Christians believe both that humans have free will, AND that God knows all, past, present, and future. IMO, that's a contradiction, but Christians don't believe it is. If I understand the belief correctly, God exists transcendent of time, and while people do have free will, God also knows the outcome of their choices. Now Jesus, as God incarnate, also knew the future, and knew what Judas would do. And in Jesus's/God's mind, Judas did what he was supposed to do. But in Judas's mind, he still betrayed Jesus. If God knows all, then in a sense, one could say Hitler did what he was "supposed" to do; surely Hitler is not in heaven.

[IWLN]

I don't believe in the ressurection story as told, but I believe in God. In the Christian doctrine, if Hitler or Judas repented right before they died, they're saved. There's a verse in the bible I can't find right now, but it basically says that no sin is worse than another. There's a parable about some workers that show up late and get paid the same. They're all the same, as long as they repent.

[Siege]

Like I said, my opinions are strictly mine, and generally somewhat out there. On the other hand, when I've mounted up on my white horse, charging off to do battle in God's name, absolutely convinced that I am Right and God is on my side, my take on Judas reminds of one sobering thing. Judas also believed that.

CJ

[Northern Piper]

It's my understanding that Christians believe both that humans have free will, AND that God knows all, past, present, and future. IMO, that's a contradiction, but Christians don't believe it is.You're painting with entiely too broad abrush here - you can't assume all Christians take these positions. Some Christians emphasise free will, but others (e.g. - Calvinists) are predestinarians.

[emarkp]

when I've mounted up on my white horse, charging off to do battle in God's name, absolutely convinced that I am Right and God is on my side, my take on Judas reminds of one sobering thing. Judas also believed that.No, that's not right. There's no evidence to show that Judas believed that. That's entirely your speculation. Judas may have believed that.

[Aldebaran]

It is told that at the the Last Supper Jesus claimed to know that one of his followers would betray him.

So the question is: why didn't he stop him to do it. Which brings us to a few possibilities

1. He heard a rumour about it but didn't know who it would be. He decided to bring it in the open to see if someone else knew about it or to see if the one who was planning to do it would expose himself.
2. He knew who it was but didn't stop him.

If you claim that Jesus = God, then he must have known that it was going to happen, who it was and what this treason would to do that man and that it would lead him to commit suicide.
Then you must come to the conclusion that God deliberately made Judas betray God and next commit suicide = become excluded from every opportunity to enter heaven and sentenced to be despized by all further generations of Christians until the end of time.

I don't find that a reasoning logical when you teach and believe that God is the summum of love, compassion and mercy.
How do Christians explain that God deliberately does something like that to a follower of God?


Salaam. A

[blowero]

You're painting with entiely too broad abrush here - you can't assume all Christians take these positions. Some Christians emphasise free will, but others (e.g. - Calvinists) are predestinarians.
You sure about that?
Is Calvinism Inconsistent with Free Will? (http://graceonlinelibrary.org/calvinism/full.asp?ID=128)

God has ordained that human beings shall keep their liberty under His sovereignty. He has made no attempt to give us a formal explanation of these things, and our limited human knowledge is not able fully to solve the problem. Since the Scripture writers did not hesitate to affirm the absolute sway of God over the thoughts and intents of the heart, they felt no embarrassment in including the acts of free agents within His all-embracing plan. That the makers of the Westminster Confession recognized the freedom of man is plain; for immediately after declaring that "God has freely and unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass," they added, "Yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

[emarkp]

How do Christians explain that God deliberately does something like that to a follower of God?God will never abrogate agency (free will) to accomplish His goals. Hence, Jesus allowed Judas to make his choice, but made sure that he knew there would be serious consequences (http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/26/24#24).

Indeed, were God to remove the most important choice we have (to choose God or to choose evil), free will would be a farce.

[Atreyu]

I humbly beg to offer a link to a thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=139308) regarding Judas I started some time ago with similar themes.

[BrainGlutton]

Indeed, were God to remove the most important choice we have (to choose God or to choose evil), free will would be a farce.

We do not have a choice between God and evil. We have a choice between God and good.

[Apos]

God will never abrogate agency (free will) to accomplish His goals. Hence, Jesus allowed Judas to make his choice, but made sure that he knew there would be serious consequences (http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/26/24#24).

Never? Seems like there are many instances in which God obviously influences someones character in the Bible to change their minds.

Indeed, were God to remove the most important choice we have (to choose God or to choose evil), free will would be a farce.

I've never seen exactly how any of this follows. You are such a creature of such a character that chooses certain things. Many things outside of your control can alter this character over time so that your choices will be different, but nobody cries "violation of free will!" there. So why would God changing your character to be nicer violate your free will in any way? You are still free to choose what it is in your character to choose. You'd just have a different and better character all of a sudden.

[BarnOwl]

Can we really believe there is a Hell? This is a place where lost souls are tormented for Eternity. Can we believe that Jesus, the quintessence of Love, would condemn us to Hell forever?

I find this very hard to believe.

Once upon a time in confession, I asked a priest if those in Heaven live in utter bliss. He gave an unequivocal 'Yes."

Well then," I asked, "how do you explain Lucifer."

It stumped him, as it does me. I mean if we believe that Lucifer became so jaded, he challenged God to a rasslin' match, lost and was flung into hell, whats in store for those of us who make it to heaven? Will some of us tire of all that goody-two-shoes stuff and request a transfer? Not likely.

I think (or is it 'hope'?) that Hell is something the Book holds over us to keep us somewhat on the right path.

Another priest (in confession again) told me that at the time of one's death, Jesus visits each and every one of us and offers a choice - Him or Satan, heaven or hell.

Stupefied, I replied "No one would choose Satan, so that would mean everyone - even a Hitler - goes to heaven, right?" He agreed.

Ah, but this turns out to be herestical as I found out later.

[Aeschines]

It seems to me that when times get rough or they are searching for some inspiration they always seem to say "you can't change your future."I've never heard that.I mean even Jesus himself says he was sent to earth to atone for our sins, right?The idea that Jesus died for our sins is NOT in the Gospels; this idea comes from Paul. So no, Jesus never said so. Find a quote if you can.So if everybody has a predetermined destiny by god, whether it be priest, lawyer, doctor, etc, wouldn't that mean Judas did the right thing.No, but it could mean that he was predetermined to do the wrong thing.I can go on more, but I think everybody sees where this is going. Here's another noodle scratcher for you: If Judas did fulfill his destiny, this making Jesus words true, then would he be resting in Heaven or Hell?One can rest in Hell? I feel relieved. But no: if you buy the premises of the versions of Xianity that support predestination and notions of eternal Hell, then I doubt that you'd be debating whether Judas was "right" or in Hell or not. Besides, there is still the question of whether Jesus' life was predestined to happen exactly as it did or not....

[clairobscur]

I'm not going to add much to the debate, but anecdotically, Judas fate has been my first issue with christianism when I was attending sunday school (that would be wednesday school in France, actually). I just couldn't get why he was condemned for what he had done, since doing so was at the same time necessary and sort of "planned". From this arose my first feeling that this god the priest was talking about was unjust. Since then, Judas has been sort of a hero of mine.

However, the priest told us that Judas was sent to hell not for having betrayed the Christ, but for having commited suicide.

[BarnOwl]

I'm not going to add much to the debate, but anecdotically, Judas fate has been my first issue with christianism when I was attending sunday school (that would be wednesday school in France, actually). I just couldn't get why he was condemned for what he had done, since doing so was at the same time necessary and sort of "planned". From this arose my first feeling that this god the priest was talking about was unjust. Since then, Judas has been sort of a hero of mine.

However, the priest told us that Judas was sent to hell not for having betrayed the Christ, but for having commited suicide.

What the priest (and all his colleagues) tend to dismiss, is that Jesus, just before he died, asked his Father to "...forgive them for they know not what they do."

Do you think Jesus was talking only about the Romans and those few Jews who called for His execution? That plea was for all of us.

[emarkp]

The idea that Jesus died for our sins is NOT in the Gospels; this idea comes from Paul. So no, Jesus never said so. Find a quote if you can.You mean like Matthew 26:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matthew+26%3A28&NIV_version=yes&NASB_version=yes&AMP_version=yes&NLT_version=yes&KJV_version=yes&ESV_version=yes&CEV_version=yes&NKJV_version=yes&KJ21_version=yes&ASV_version=yes&WE_version=yes&YLT_version=yes&DARBY_version=yes&WYC_version=yes&NIV=&language=english&orientation=linebyline)?For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

[Aeschines]

You mean like Matthew 26:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matthew+26%3A28&NIV_version=yes&NASB_version=yes&AMP_version=yes&NLT_version=yes&KJV_version=yes&ESV_version=yes&CEV_version=yes&NKJV_version=yes&KJ21_version=yes&ASV_version=yes&WE_version=yes&YLT_version=yes&DARBY_version=yes&WYC_version=yes&NIV=&language=english&orientation=linebyline)?

Fair enough--but this ideas is really weak in the Gospels, althought there IS much about Jesus ability to forgive sins.

Go to Paul, however, and it gets much clearer:

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ROM+4:25&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on"He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. "

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1COR+15:3&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[1] : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures...."

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=HEB+7:27&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Big theme in Paul; barely to be found in the Gospels.

[emarkp]

Fair enough--but this ideas is really weak in the GospelsMy comment was in response to your claim: The idea that Jesus died for our sins is NOT in the Gospels; this idea comes from Paul.I showed a counterexample. So it is in the Gospels.

Big theme in Paul; barely to be found in the Gospels.This is a backpedal from above, right? Which is it, thematic of Paul or coming from Paul?

A few more references to the Gospels:
Matthew 20:28 (http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/20/28#28)
"Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
Luke 22:19 (http://scriptures.lds.org/luke/22/19#19)
"And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me."
John 6:51 (http://scriptures.lds.org/john/6/51#51)
"I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
John 10:15 (http://scriptures.lds.org/john/10/15#15)
"As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."
John 12:31-33 (http://scriptures.lds.org/john/12/31-33#31)
"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die."

And though not in the Gospels, Peter wrote of it (http://scriptures.lds.org/1_pet/1/18-19#18), and the imagery of Jesus as the Lamb of God (and the paschal lamb (http://scriptures.lds.org/ex/12/) as a foreshadowing of Jesus' role) redeeming us from sin is pervasive in John's writings (http://scriptures.lds.org/john/1/29#29), including many (http://scriptures.lds.org/rev/7/14#14) references (http://scriptures.lds.org/rev/12/11#11) in Revelation.

Lastly, the prophecy of Isaiah (which Christians interpret as applying to Christ) is particularly apt (http://scriptures.lds.org/isa/53/5#5) for this theme: "and with his stripes we are healed" -- this was the scripture shown onscreen as the movie opened.