Scots, Irish, St.Patrick

[Matchka]

I know where Ireland is. I know where Scotland is. I know who St. Patrick was (as much as anyone else does at any rate) and why he is held in high regard by the Irish in particular and anyone opposed to tyrannical oppression in general. But…

What is meant by Scotch-Irish?
What is the link between Scots and St. Patrick’s Day festivities? Are they Irish (only bigger)?

[ruadh]

"Scotch-Irish" is an Americanism, used to refer to the 18th and 19th century immigrants to America who hailed from (what is now called) Northern Ireland and were Protestants of Scottish ancestry. The term has no currency on this side of the pond.

Some people think St. Patrick was actually born in Scotland, but apart from that he doesn't really have anything to do with the place.

[Lobelia Overhill]

Wasn't it Frank Carson who once said "Sure a Scotsman is just an Irishman who can swim"

Scots (Scotch is a drink) and Irish are Celtic, they speak different versions of Gaelic and are (I know cos I lived in Scotland for 20 years) vastly different people - which is strange considering the number of Scots who have Irish ancestry. Also in Ireland the population is "mostly" Catholic, whereas in Scotland it's "msotly" protestant, not sure what it's like these days, but when I lived there if you were a Catholic (and all Irish are deemed Catholic by default regardless of their religion) you kept your mouth shut about it ... I can't remember ever seeing a St Patrick's Day parade when I lived in Scotland.

That was helpful wasn't it? LOL

[pravnik]

Our Irish doper friends have it right, of cuss. King James I of England colonized Ulster with Scottish Presbyterians, known as "Ulster Scots." Some of their descendants were involved in the opposition to Irish home rule during the late 19th and early 20th centuries and the partitioning of Ireland in 1920. Those who moved from Ireland to America came to be called "Scotch-Irish." I've been told that "Scotch" isn't much used on the other side of the pond except as it pertains to liquor and tape. Some Scotch-Irish people here have taken to calling themselves "Scots-Irish" to avoid irritating the Scottish, but I'm not so sure that's any less irritating.

[Tamerlane]

Are they Irish (only bigger)?

Scotland you mean?

Scotland was founded from a territory in the modern west of that country that was settled/founded from Ireland as a satellite of an Irish kingdom in the region of modern day Antrim in Northern Ireland. The state in Ireland was known by the dynastic name of Dal Riata and hence the satellite in Scotland was called Dal Riata/Dalriada as well. Originally it was ruled by a steward ( mormaer ) in the name of the Dal Riata kings, then eventually it broke away to become the independent kingdom of Dalriada. The word 'Scot' comes from Scotii, which was the Roman designation for Irish raiders.

The dominant power in Scotland ( called Alba at that time ) was the Pictish kingdom(s) in the modern northeast of Scotland, sometimes unified, sometimes divided between competing northern and southern dynasties, speaking by then a type of Brythonic Celtic language ( with some ancient non-Celtic remnants ). Ultimately they forcibly vassalized the weaker state of Dalriada, though it was always an uneasy relationship. At this point the history gets a bit obscure, but in 858 Kenneth MacAlpin, king of Dalriada/Scotia, became king of the Picts, possibly via a maternal connection to the Pictish dynasty. This was in the period of heavy Viking raiding and it is probable that the ostensibly more powerful Pictish kingdom was either too exhausted to object or else MacAlpin was regarded as a strong leader when such was lacking in Pictland. At any rate the greater importance of the Pictish half of the kingdom is attested to by the fact that the first few Scottish kings are referred to in the annals as rex pictorum ( 'king of the Picts' ).

Scotland became largely Galeicized ( though Brythonic speakers persisted in some areas ) until the early 12th century, when Norman influuence at the Scottish court ( King David I, who gained the throne in 1124, was raised in the Anglo-Norman court and married a rich Norman heiress ) led to something of a cultural revolution in the eastern lowlands and southern uplands. Gaelic began a long, slow retreat westwards into the highlands and western isles. Today ( according to a report I just looked up ) it has fallen below just 60,000 native speakers.

So the connections between Ireland and Scotland are quite significant and in fact they go both ways. Gaelic-speaking Scottish mercenaries from the Hebrides and western Highlands became a prominent source of military manpower in medieval Ireland and occasionally were granted or otherwise acquired land and settled to become 'natives'. For example the various branches of the MacSweeney's ( MacSuibhne ) in the modern northwest of Ireland or the MacDonnell's ( MacDonald/MacDomhnail ) in Antrim in the northeast.

- Tamerlane

[sugaree]

A lot of Scotch-Irish immigrants settled in western Pennsylvania. The term arose because in the bad old days, the Presbyterian Irish, descendents of those Ulster Scots, and the Catholic Irish did not wish to be confused for one another. It was a bit of a sore point. My grandfather had a varied ethnic background, but he identified as an Irish Catholic. Pap told me how his father was Scots (he said Scotch) and Irish, but he was always careful to point out that he was notScotch-Irish.

[GorillaMan]

Also in Ireland the population is "mostly" Catholic, whereas in Scotland it's "msotly" protestant, not sure what it's like these days, but when I lived there if you were a Catholic (and all Irish are deemed Catholic by default regardless of their religion)

In Western Scotland, religion is a COMPLEX issue. In Glasgow, most things are divided along a crude Protestant/Catholic divide - schooling certainly is, but by by the 'choice' of the parents, and housing also. The obvious cliched-yet-relevant example is the Old Firm football rivalry - Celtic supporters adorn themselves with Irish flags, and Rangers with Union Flags.

Certainly you keep quiet about your opinions when making everyday conversation, but that's a societal necessity otherwise everyone would be arguing the whole time.


In answer to the OP, I suspect the Americanism "Scotch-Irish" refers to somebody of physically-Scottish background, but with strong Irish ancestory.

[Mk VII]

there has always been a certain amount of population movement between Ulster and Lowland Scotland (just about visible across the Irish Sea at its nearest point on a clear day) and the Protestant-Catholic tribal warfare of Ulster has transferred, in a milder form, to Glasgow (where it usually takes the form of the intermittent Celtic v. Rangers soccer clashes)

[Futile Gesture]

Some Scotch-Irish people here have taken to calling themselves "Scots-Irish" to avoid irritating the Scottish, but I'm not so sure that's any less irritating.Well exactly. Unless we're talking about the original migrants, who may, or may not call, themselves Scotch-Irish, there are no longer any such persons.

All the rest are American.

[MC Master of Ceremonies]

To expand on Tamerlane's history of Scotland:

The formation of Scotland was a complex affair. Basically for centuries there were four different groups competing among themselves in the area:The Picts, the Scots (i.e. the Dalriadans/Godolic Celts), the British (i.e. the Brythonic Celts) and the Anglo-Saxons (i.e. Germanic tribes), adding to these four groups, late in the day arrived the Vikings (i.e. Norsemen).

The British and Anglo Saxon groups were by no means in any way united among themselves and if two kingdoms belonged to the same group it made very little differnce to whther or not they went to war . The principle British kingdoms in the area were Strathclyde, Gododdin and Rheged and the pinciple Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms were Bernicia and Northrumbia. Rheged (which fractured into a Northern and Southern kingdom)and Northumbria had their main territorial bases in what later became Northern England, but at various times had territory in what became Scotland (this is especially true of the Northumbrians). These two groupings dominated the lowlands of what became Scotland (which includes modern Scotland's capital Edinburgh which then known as Dunedin and was the captial of Gododdin before falling to Northumbria) fighting among themselves for control of this area. The Kingdoms of Rheged and Gododdin eventualy fell, mainly due to the efforts of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms leaving the 'borders' a Germanic stronghold and cleaving the remaining British Caledonian territory into two. Strathclyde (whose territory was mainly based in what became Scotland and whichincluded the city founded by St. Mungo which went onto to become Scotlands most populace city: Glasgow)was genreally speaking the strongest of the British kingdoms in what became Scotland still fully independent until several decades after Kenneth MacAplin founded the Kingdom of Scotland and not fully subsumed into the kingdom until 1018.

The Picts and the Scots dominated the geographically larger highlands, again not necessarily united among their groupings with Pictland at various times being split into North and South kingdoms and various sub-kingdoms and Dalriada at times divided into warring septs. The Scots settled in Great Britian in the same manner that the Anglo-Saxons and later the Vikings, initially as raiders, before settling down and consolidating territory. The kingdom of Dalriada started life ironically in Ulster, then strecthing across the Irish sea and taking in mid-west Scotland and the neraby Irelands, before it lost it's orginal territoral base in Ireland. Militarily throughout this period of competing kingdoms the Picts dominated (as well as dominating the Scots, they later managed to dominate Strathclyde and halted the adavance of the Anglo-Saxons) managing to completely overrun Dalriada twice reducing it to their overlordship. However Scots culture managed to do what Dalriada could not and despite the fact that at the time it was the Picts who ruled the Scots, completely supplanted Pictish culture. This was primarily due to evangelisation of the Picts which was carried out by among others Irish monks, also playing a role was undoubted Irish immigration into western Pictland (Atholl). Kenneth MacAplin (who was actually not the first Scot to rule the Picts, all of them gaining control partly via the same method of strategic marriage), in the ninth century frimly united the two kingdoms into a single kingdom in the ninth century.

In the century preceding the founding of the Kingdom of Scotland, a new foce appeared on the scene - the Vikings. They did not have a significant role to play at this stage (though later, IIRC, interstingly the first King of England to get the King of Scotland to pay homage to him was none other than the Viking Cnut the Great (most famous for veinly commanding the tide to go out to illustrate the temporal limits of kingly power), but what they did do was to take control of the outer isles.

Finally, set up, getting onto the OP: St. Patrick may well of been born in Scotland before being taken as a slave by Irish raiders, also another connection is that St. Patrick was in correspondance with the King of Strathclyde. Apart from that I cannot think of many other connections with Scotland (though I imagine that the descendants of the large numbers of Irish people who moved to Scotlands's largets city Galsgow during the potato famine may celebrate St. Patrick's day). Though one thing, why would St. Patrick in particular be held in high regard by anyone opposed to tyrannical oppression?

[bonzer]

An old thread featuring St. Patrick (and myself) (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=170625&highlight=kilpatrick).

[pravnik]

Well exactly. Unless we're talking about the original migrants, who may, or may not call, themselves Scotch-Irish, there are no longer any such persons.

All the rest are American.

What, you can't be both? An Irish man and woman give birth to a child in the U.S., and the child can't call himself Irish? A Latino born here can't validly call himself a Mexican?

[Matchka]

What, you can't be both? An Irish man and woman give birth to a child in the U.S., and the child can't call himself Irish? A Latino born here can't validly call himself a Mexican?


Actualy, I believe, according to Irish Citizenship laws, the kid IS Irish irrespective of birthplace....why won't these worms get back into this little can.....

[GorillaMan]

Actualy, I believe, according to Irish Citizenship laws, the kid IS Irish irrespective of birthplace....why won't these worms get back into this little can.....

To be eligible for Irish citizenship, you must be either born in Ireland or born to an Ireland-born parent....in my case, I have an Irish mother so I have an Irish passport and Irish citizenship, but a child born with an English mother would have no such claim.

[GorillaMan]

Sorry..."...a child born WITH ME and an english mother.."

[ruadh]

To be eligible for Irish citizenship, you must be either born in Ireland or born to an Ireland-born parent....in my case, I have an Irish mother so I have an Irish passport and Irish citizenship, but a child born with an English mother would have no such claim.

Actually, you're eligible for Irish citizenship if you have an Irish born grandparent.

[Declan]

Actualy, I believe, according to Irish Citizenship laws, the kid IS Irish irrespective of birthplace....why won't these worms get back into this little can.....


[Highjack of a highjack]Irish dopers , whats need to gain entry into Eire or NI papers wise if I want to come over with out a passport. As I was born in Belfast , would just the birth certificate do ?[/Highjack of a highjack]

Declan

[ruadh]

Um, a Canadian passport should be enough to get you into Ireland. The birth certificate on its own will do you no good whatsoever.

[continuing hijack]BTW, none of this "Éire or NI" stuff please. Éire is simply the Irish word for Ireland. If you wouldn't say "Ireland or NI" (and why would you?) there's no reason to say "Éire or NI".[/hijack]

[GorillaMan]

Actually, you're eligible for Irish citizenship if you have an Irish born grandparent.

Almost - also having to have an Irish parent:

"If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born outside Ireland, and any of your grandparents was born in Ireland, then you are entitled to become an Irish citizen, and can do so by having your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register maintained by the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs."

http://www.justice.ie/802569B20047F907/vWeb/wpMJDE5E4FVG

[ruadh]

Well, that's redundant. If you have an Irish born grandparent, you have an Irish citizen parent. Because the child of the Irish born grandparent would automatically be an Irish citizen.

[Declan]

Um, a Canadian passport should be enough to get you into Ireland. The birth certificate on its own will do you no good whatsoever.

If I had a Canadian passport , this would not be a conversational item. My british passport expired some time ago, and did not have the time or money to get it replaced.

A Canadian passport requires something like 90 days to process I believe and its one of the smallest passports , thickness wise with fewer pages to stamp , than a normal passport.

[continuing hijack]BTW, none of this "Éire or NI" stuff please. Éire is simply the Irish word for Ireland. If you wouldn't say "Ireland or NI" (and why would you?) there's no reason to say "Éire or NI".[/hijack]

Sorry , gotta disagree. For the purposes of this conversation , the two mentioned are separate political groups ,with Eire being the republic and NI being a British possession at the moment ,which means two separate foreign offices with their own rules.

Correct me if thats wrong.

Declan

[ruadh]

If I had a Canadian passport , this would not be a conversational item. My british passport expired some time ago, and did not have the time or money to get it replaced.

A Canadian passport requires something like 90 days to process I believe and its one of the smallest passports , thickness wise with fewer pages to stamp , than a normal passport.

Well, you need a passport from some country anyway. How else are you going to get on the plane?

Sorry , gotta disagree. For the purposes of this conversation , the two mentioned are separate political groups ,with Eire being the republic and NI being a British possession at the moment ,which means two separate foreign offices with their own rules.

Correct me if thats wrong.

I'm not disagreeing that they're separate politically.

"Ireland" has two meanings - the 26-county state and the 32-county island.
"Éire" has the same two meanings. The only difference between them is that the former is the English term and the latter is the Irish term. There is no reason to use the latter term unless you're speaking in Irish. If you need to distinguish between the two states, it makes no more sense to say "Éire and NI" than it does to say "Ireland and NI".

The most widely preferred way to distinguish them would be "RoI and NI".

[UDS]

[Highjack of a highjack]Irish dopers , whats need to gain entry into Eire or NI papers wise if I want to come over with out a passport. As I was born in Belfast , would just the birth certificate do ?[/Highjack of a highjack]
Producing the birth certificate does not, of itself, establish that you are an Irish citizen, for two reasons.

First, you may be in the small class of people who, because of birth in Ireland, are entitled to become Irish citizens rather than being Irish citizens automatically (e.g. the children of accredited diplomats, persons who have previously made a declaration of alienage to renounce citizenship).

Secondly, and more substantially, the birth certificate you flourish so confidently may not, in fact, be yours; a birth certificate is not an identity document. Even if you have some other identification (e.g. a driver's licence) which has your photograph and shows you have the same name as is on the birth certificate, that could be a coincidence. Or you could have changed your name to coincide with the name on the birth certicate, and then applied for a licence.

There are procedures in place for ensuring that the people who get passports are who they say they are. Sure, they're not perfect, but they are mutually recognised internationally. There is no such convention with respect to drivers licences, birth certicates and the like. So the immigration officer will expect a passport.

Truth is, if you get as far as landing in Ireland you <i>might</i> succeed in talking your way in. Are you elderly and extremely respectable parents waiting for you just outside the landing area? This helps. Have you a pronounced Irish accent? Do you "look Irish"? This helps too. You might get in. But you might not. And, as ruadh points out, without a passport the airline is likely to refuse to carry you. Especially nowadays. So you'll never get as far as the immigration officer.

Hey, if you can afford a transatlantic airfare you can afford to pay for a passport.

Oh, and what ruadh says about the name of the country is quite correct. It may seem picky, but if you do talk your way onto the plane and past the immigration officer, you should know that the locals will bristle at your usage.

[GorillaMan]

Well, that's redundant. If you have an Irish born grandparent, you have an Irish citizen parent. Because the child of the Irish born grandparent would automatically be an Irish citizen.

Not necessarily true. Myself as an example again - if I have a child, they can claim Irish citizenship, but only because I had done so. If I had stuck with plain old British, they would have no claim.

AFAIK, these rules were made to stop thousands of claims by Americans with only tenuous links to Ireland.

[ruadh]

you may be in the small class of people who, because of birth in Ireland, are entitled to become Irish citizens rather than being Irish citizens automatically (e.g. the children of accredited diplomats, persons who have previously made a declaration of alienage to renounce citizenship).


Just to be complete here, there is another category of persons born in Ireland who are not automatically Irish citizens. If you're born in Ireland to non-citizen parents, and you qualify for the citizenship of another country, you are entitled to declare yourself an Irish citizen; however, if you choose not to do so, Ireland will not claim you as a citizen.

The reason for this is the revision to Articles 2 and 3 of the Irish Constitution. As UDS will know (but others may not), under the 1998 agreement the Irish state agreed to give up its constitutional claim to Northern Ireland but, in order to reassure northern nationalists that they were not being abandoned, the new text of the Constitution stated that "It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland... to be part of the Irish nation". In this way, northern nationalists who want to be Irish citizens are able to be, while northern unionists who don't want to be Irish citizens do not have Irish citizenship forced upon them. As a practical matter the same would apply to the child of any foreign national parents who is entitled to his or her parents' citizenship.

Finally, I'll note that the Irish Government announced last week that it plans to hold a referendum to make another change to the Constitution, to deny entitlement to citizenship to the children of noncitizens who have been resident in Ireland for less than three years.

[ruadh]

Not necessarily true. Myself as an example again - if I have a child, they can claim Irish citizenship, but only because I had done so. If I had stuck with plain old British, they would have no claim.

No, you've missed the point. You didn't have a choice in claiming Irish citizenship - as far as the Irish government is concerned, because your mother is an Irish citizen, so are you. From your same link: "If either of your parents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, you are an Irish citizen" (emphasis added). You can choose whether or not to exercise this citizenship, of course, but that doesn't impact on the Irish government's view of you - nor on your children's right to claim citizenship.

[ruadh]

Oh, and as far as trying to keep Americans with a tenuous Irish connection from claiming citizenship, check out the website of the Irish embassy in Washington (http://www.irelandemb.org/fbr.html) with its full and complete details on how an American with an Irish grandparent can apply.

[Futile Gesture]

What, you can't be both? An Irish man and woman give birth to a child in the U.S., and the child can't call himself Irish? A Latino born here can't validly call himself a Mexican?It depends where the child is brought up and lives.

If an 'Scotch-Irish' is to all intents and purposes identical to an American except for what they do today (St Patrick's day), then 'Scotch-Irish' isn't much of an national or cultural identity. What do those who not American and are 'Scotch-Irish' all year round do?

Which is why I said that there was no longer any such thing. Sorry people, but if you are born and raised in America then you are American. You don't get to co-opt other nationalities as a one-day party piece, there's a bit more to it than that.

This is very different from celibrating your heritage. Even if the idea of what Irish culture is seems to have lost track somewhere amongst the leprechauns and green Guinness.

[Dogface]

"Scotch-Irish" is an Americanism, used to refer to the 18th and 19th century immigrants to America who hailed from (what is now called) Northern Ireland and were Protestants of Scottish ancestry. The term has no currency on this side of the pond.

And thus aren't actually Irish at all.

[ruadh]

They were born in Ireland, that makes them Irish AFAIC.

How they chose to see themselves is another matter, of course.

[dylan_73]

I'm Scottish, and today (St Patrick's) is my birthday. Had to mention it somewhere... :)

[gluteus maximus]

So, what's with the Scottish Highlander bagpipes and Tartan kilts in the St. Patrick's Day parade in NYC? I mean, I get the Irish tweed-wearin' folk with their Irish setters...

[Chronos]

The bagpipe is a traditional Irish instrument as well as a traditional Scottish one. There's some dispute over who had it first, but a similar instrument was being played in the Middle East before it ever showed up on the Isles, so it's probably moot. The Irish version of the instrument is slightly different, and it is, in fact, the Scottish version that you usually see and hear in St. Paddy's parades. This is just because the Scottish type is generally preferred by Americans, and it's considered close enough.

As for tartans, I think (but I'm not certain) that tartans in general are Celtic, not specifically Scottish. Certainly, kilts were traditionally worn on both sides of the Irish Sea.

[Declan]

Producing the birth certificate does not, of itself, establish that you are an Irish citizen, for two reasons.

First, you may be in the small class of people who, because of birth in Ireland, are entitled to become Irish citizens rather than being Irish citizens automatically (e.g. the children of accredited diplomats, persons who have previously made a declaration of alienage to renounce citizenship).

No , I am a dual or tri national , never figured that one out ,but Canadian requirements don't demand I renounce Irish citizenship , so to make it simple , I am dual national.

Secondly, and more substantially, the birth certificate you flourish so confidently may not, in fact, be yours; a birth certificate is not an identity document. Even if you have some other identification (e.g. a driver's licence) which has your photograph and shows you have the same name as is on the birth certificate, that could be a coincidence. Or you could have changed your name to coincide with the name on the birth certicate, and then applied for a licence.

Unfortuneatly yeah , I got the same thing coming into canadian customs , it only proves your licensed to drive in Ontario , yeah whatever lady(not you) , its kinda funny that way , part of the confusion regarding passports , was that I knew I needed one for entry into a foreign country , and as a convience into the States , but not for the birth country.


Truth is, if you get as far as landing in Ireland you <i>might</i> succeed in talking your way in. Are you elderly and extremely respectable parents waiting for you just outside the landing area? This helps. Have you a pronounced Irish accent? Do you "look Irish"? This helps too. You might get in. But you might not. And, as ruadh points out, without a passport the airline is likely to refuse to carry you. Especially nowadays. So you'll never get as far as the immigration officer.

No , I am 39 and am more likely to get asked what state I am from , rather than what country , and have heard various mumbles under the breath about being another gringo :) As for the airline refusing entry , thats a new one for me. Like I said , I thought it had to do with foreign countrys.

Hey, if you can afford a transatlantic airfare you can afford to pay for a passport.

True , probably in a couple of weeks I will apply for the Canadian passport

Oh, and what ruadh says about the name of the country is quite correct. It may seem picky, but if you do talk your way onto the plane and past the immigration officer, you should know that the locals will bristle at your usage.[/QUOTE]

Not the way I grew up here , when we emigrated here in 70 , the Irish of that generation had specific slang and sayings and a general way of talking, that happened to be one of them.

But differnet times

Declan

[pravnik]

It depends where the child is brought up and lives.

If an 'Scotch-Irish' is to all intents and purposes identical to an American except for what they do today (St Patrick's day), then 'Scotch-Irish' isn't much of an national or cultural identity. What do those who not American and are 'Scotch-Irish' all year round do?

Which is why I said that there was no longer any such thing. Sorry people, but if you are born and raised in America then you are American. You don't get to co-opt other nationalities as a one-day party piece, there's a bit more to it than that.

This is very different from celibrating your heritage. Even if the idea of what Irish culture is seems to have lost track somewhere amongst the leprechauns and green Guinness.

Who said anything about nationality? I'm talking about cultural identity. No American traveling abroad would say "I'm Irish" if asked their nationality; that would be inane. I'm talking about identification with the place that the person's family immigrated from, and the culture that they brought with them. For example, cities like Giddings and Fredericksburg in Texas were settled by German immigrants and retained a strong German identification long after those immigrants had passed away. In my maternal grandmother's day, most residents spoke German and English fairly equally, and a bit of a creole of both. A skunk, native to Texas but not Germany, was "ein stinkatzen." My great uncles had to enlist in the Navy and fight in the Pacific theater in WWII due to German last names and German accents in their voices, despite having been born and raised in America and never having even set foot in Germany.

These cultural identities can still be quite strong today. A German girlfriend of mine in law school who was traveling through Giddings was let out of a speeding ticket by a state trooper named Shultz with a German Flag on his lapel. Strong Irish American communities still exist in major cities like Chicago; right now probably half of them are taking the day off of work to start celebrating early. In Hamatrack, Michigan, the site of the old Poletown, the Polish community is so strong there's still a Polish speaking minority. If you still don't believe how strong this identification can be, find a guy named Kowalski in a Hamatrack bar and tell him a Polish joke.

[Dogface]

The bagpipe is a traditional Irish instrument as well as a traditional Scottish one.

"Bagpipes" in general are. However, the three-drone Great Highland Pipes is a pure invention of Scotland, with no history whatsoever in Ireland--except as it was brought there and imposed by British invaders.

Scottish type is generally preferred by Americans, and it's considered close enough.

Yeah, like a tuba is "close enough" to a cornet.

As for tartans, I think (but I'm not certain) that tartans in general are Celtic, not specifically Scottish. Certainly, kilts were traditionally worn on both sides of the Irish Sea.

Nothing uniquely "Celtic" about "tartan" patterns. They have been found in North Africa, in Shogun-era Japanese finds, and elsewhere. Your contention about the kilt is nothing but 19th-century fantasy. Pleated garments were worn in Ireland, but not "kilts" as they are known today (no, not even the "belted plaid")--until, once again, British invaders brought them. The pleated garment worn in Ireland was the ionar, a jacket that ended above the waist and had a pleated skirt attached to that bottom. In addition, the Irish wore a very loose shirt underneath, which was drawn up into the belt. Artists' renditions were mistaken as "kilts" by later people driven more by romantic nonsense than sensible scholarship. In addition (and most dimwittedly), many so-called "ancient kilts" are actually just a representation of the quilted byrnie--a padded armor with no kiltlike qualities, whatsoever.

I suggest you consult Old Irish & Highland dress, and that of the Isle of Man by H.F. McClintock. He's still the best source on the matter, especially since he is one of the very few sources that presents what original material is known to exist rather than just rehashing some old rehash of some old rehash that goes back to a pair of clever Polish con men.

[Dogface]

Ah, here we go.

A site that rather well debunks the tired old lie of the "Irish kilt"
http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/IrishKilts.html

A page that gives examples of far more accurate reconstructions of traditional Irish clothing:

http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/

[TitoBenito]

It depends where the child is brought up and lives.

If an 'Scotch-Irish' is to all intents and purposes identical to an American except for what they do today (St Patrick's day), then 'Scotch-Irish' isn't much of an national or cultural identity. What do those who not American and are 'Scotch-Irish' all year round do?

Which is why I said that there was no longer any such thing. Sorry people, but if you are born and raised in America then you are American. You don't get to co-opt other nationalities as a one-day party piece, there's a bit more to it than that.

This is very different from celibrating your heritage. Even if the idea of what Irish culture is seems to have lost track somewhere amongst the leprechauns and green Guinness.

I really think you don't understand the whole concept of ethnicity in the US. When someone claims to be English, Irish, Russian, German, Greek what have you, they are not actually claiming to be an Englishman, an Irishman, a Russian, a German, or a Greek. They are merely explaining their ancestry. I can claim to be Scots-Irish just as I can claim to be English or German. By saying so, I'm not claiming to be a (notice use of indefinate article) something, but that I am somethingish (notice adjectival form).

I am an American and I have no real desire to be another nationality, but this doesn't mean that I have no right to explain my ancestry if asked (its a terribly boring subject and I would never bring it up).

[Matchka]

((Matcka sips his Guinness. Shifts in his seat. Looks about for a larger worm can))

Seriously, good stuff on the history, pipes, tartan, citizenship, etc. I have a large thoroughbred Scot friend who insists St. Pat's is his day...from what I'm hearing, this is really only the case if he is decended from Irish swimmers.

[Buran]

there has always been a certain amount of population movement between Ulster and Lowland Scotland (just about visible across the Irish Sea at its nearest point on a clear day)

More than just about visible, from my home in NI I can easily see the West coast of Scotland (Mull of Kyntyre....spelled wrong) which is roughly 20 miles away. Its actually a very useful way of determining the weather, the clearer the view the more likely bad or at least cold weather is on the way. Sometimes its extraordinary how far you can see.

A few miles north up the coast from Torr Head to Scotland at its closest point they're seperated by a mere 8 miles.

I've seen Scotland virtually every day of my life but I've never been there....

[Amok]

Which is why I said that there was no longer any such thing. Sorry people, but if you are born and raised in America then you are American. You don't get to co-opt other nationalities as a one-day party piece, there's a bit more to it than that.


I think you're missing the point. Very few people in the US would claim that their nationality is Irish simply because their great-grandparents were born in Ireland or what not. I've never met anyone here who claimed that, and I have little doubt that if a person did everyone would think it very odd. Rather, when someone in the US says they're "Irish", or "Scotch-Irish" or whatever, they're referring to their ethnicity. I don't know what it's like in the UK, but here nationality and ethnicity are two distinct concepts, and "American" isn't considered an ethnicity (unless you're an American Indian).

I can understand that when someone from Ireland meets an American who says "hey, I'm Irish too" the Irish person may well be thinking "uhh, no, you're not" but the American is using the term in a different, but valid, way.

And, on preview, what TitoBenito said.

[chula]

"Scotch" is commonly used to refer to people from Scotland, so I think it's wrong to say it's wrong, but it's enlightening to discover that it's fallen into disfavor in Scotland. Here's a good summary from dictionary.com:Usage Note: Scottish is the full, original form of the adjective. Scots is an old Scottish variant. Scotch is an English contraction of Scottish that came into use in Scotland as well for a time (as in Burns's “O thou, my Muse! guid auld Scotch drink!”) but subsequently fell into disfavor there. In the interest of civility, forms involving Scotch are best avoided in reference to people; designations formed with Scots are most common (Scot, Scotsman, or Scotswoman), but those involving the full form Scottish are sometimes found in more formal contexts. Scotch-Irish is the most commonly used term for the descendants of Scots who migrated to North America, but lately Scots-Irish has begun to gain currency among those who know that Scotch is considered offensive in Scotland. There is, however, no sure rule for referring to things, since the history of variation in the use of these words has left many expressions in which the choice is fixed, such as Scotch broth, Scotch whisky, Scottish rite, and Scots Guards.

[UDS]

. . . its kinda funny that way , part of the confusion regarding passports , was that I knew I needed one for entry into a foreign country , and as a convience into the States . . .
Ahem. From a Canadian perspective, the United States is a foreign country (and vice versa)

. . . but not for the birth country.
Well, an Irish citizen is entitled to enter Ireland whether or not he has a passport, and (presumably) a Canadian citizen is likewise entitled to enter Canada. But the Catch-22 is that to exercise this right you have to be able to demonstrate that you are a Canadian citizen, and an Ontario driver's licence certainly doesn't do that. Anybody ask you your nationality when you applied for a licence? Thought not. I hold a Western Australia drivers licence, but I am not Australian. And, when you applied for a copy of Declan's birth certificate, did anybody ask you to prove that you were Declan? Thought not again.

The convenient and usual way of proving your citizenship is with a passport; it's pretty much the only document that both identifies you and confirms your nationality. If you can prove it by other means then, yes, they will let you in, but you'll have a hell of a job persuading them to accept your proof. And part of the reason they'll be suspicious is that they'll be thinking "Hmm . . . if this guy claims to be a Canadian citizen, why the hell hasn't he bothered to get a passport?"

As for the airline refusing entry , thats a new one for me. Like I said , I thought it had to do with foreign countrys.
Airlines generally won't carry you on an international flight if they think there's a risk that you'll be refused entry at the destination, because (a) they're stuck with the cost of bringing you back again, or bringing you to some third country which will accept you, and (b) many countries fiine airlines and shipping lines for bringin in attempted entrants who are not properly documented.

[Futile Gesture]

"Scotch" is commonly used to refer to people from Scotland, so I think it's wrong to say it's wrong, but it's enlightening to discover that it's fallen into disfavor in Scotland.Hmmm. There are other words that are commonly used to refer to other peoples, historically too, but that doesn't make them right. Some examples would be: Paki, Gipsy, Red Indian. And I can think of worse ones.

I can't think of any reason why the word 'Scotch' has particularly fallen from favour. There's no obvious negative connotations (apart from in the minds of abstainers perhaps). But the fact is it has. It's usually common courtsey, all things being equal, to call people by the name they wish to be called. Ignoring that wish is usually taken as an insult, not matter the intent.

As to the point that Amok and TitoBenito make. Granted, I'm aware that the words mean different things to Americans, but perhaps they need to be aware that they mean a whole lot more to the nationals of the country. and we don't care much to see them redefined. :)

[ruadh]

I'll point out, as I always do in these threads, that the usage TitoBenito refers to is not unknown in Britain. It just isn't usually applied to people whose skin is white. There are plenty of British-born-and-raised "Pakistanis" who will attest to this.

[TitoBenito]

As to the point that Amok and TitoBenito make. Granted, I'm aware that the words mean different things to Americans, but perhaps they need to be aware that they mean a whole lot more to the nationals of the country. and we don't care much to see them redefined. :)

Granted, I'm aware that the words mean different things to Europeans, but perhaps they need to be aware that they mean something different to the nationals of this country. and we don't care much to see them redefined. :)

[GorillaMan]

I'll attest to it too, ruadh. I've got Irish nationality, but was born here, brought up here, support the English rugby team, and feel a foreigner in Ireland. But there are circumstances where I will describe myself as Irish, when I don't feel 'English' does the situation justice. And I'll almost always choose Irish over 'British', because the latter seems an alien concept to me - I CERTAINLY feel a foreigner in Glasgow.

[Celyn]

Greetings. O foreign Gorilla! :)