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Surreal
03-29-2004, 10:49 AM
Is it true that it is not an uncommon practice for Japanese mothers to manually masturbate their sons' penises to help them fall asleep at night?

Also, is it true that in Japan, the parents sleep in the same bed with their children, and that this practice is continued throughout childhood? If so, do the parents have sex with one another while the childen are in the same bed, or are they asked to sleep in their own beds on certain nights??

Thanks.

Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor
03-29-2004, 11:02 AM
Is it true that hate speech threads can get you banned? :rolleyes:

lieu
03-29-2004, 11:04 AM
I believe this has been discussed here in a previous thread. Still, I'm at a loss to explain why the sons can't just do it themselves. Freud and Pavlov would have had a field day with this one.

clairobscur
03-29-2004, 11:15 AM
I believe this has been discussed here in a previous thread. Still, I'm at a loss to explain why the sons can't just do it themselves. Freud and Pavlov would have had a field day with this one.



Because they would be too young, I would assume. I heard the same story about some african ethnicity. But it refered to babies, who wouldn't be able to do it themselves.

JRDelirious
03-29-2004, 11:20 AM
#1 seems to have originated as a tabloid-style sensationalist report in Japan about the "overworked high-school-student with obsessive parents" phenom ("anything to help him make the high exam score!"). It's not normal, not any more than the people on the Springer show are normal Americans. Of course, those lovely folks out there in Japan, the authors of porn comics, knowing a good sick kink when they see one, have proceeded to crank out several million pages of these scenarios thus further embedding it in the collective media-cliché consciousness.

#2 is more of a misconflation of various ways of living through history. Through most of the past, most of the population would indeed have grown up sleeping in the same room, on the same floormat, because that was all there was. Well, guess what, the-whole-family-in-the-same-room was the norm in a LOT of the world, through a LOT of recorded history. I'm pretty sure the Japanese managed the same way our ancestors did.

clairobscur
03-29-2004, 11:24 AM
Is it true that hate speech threads can get you banned? :rolleyes:


And how do you construct the OP's apparently genuine question as being hate speech? To be so, it should be :

-A statement, while it's a question

-False, which has not been established yet.

-And finally offensive, and apart from your "eek" factor, I can't perceive anything inherently wrong with a mother masturbating her baby in order to put it to sleep.

Greyson3
03-29-2004, 11:27 AM
Because they would be too young, I would assume. I heard the same story about some african ethnicity. But it refered to babies, who wouldn't be able to do it themselves.

Babies can do it themselves. I really, really hope I don't need a cite for this.

lieu
03-29-2004, 11:28 AM
Wasn't the "original" report of the mother performing oral sex on her son?

Gawd, don't let my mind have made that part up.

Jonathan Chance
03-29-2004, 11:31 AM
Yeah, it was oral.

Man, that just gives me the shudders.

Surreal
03-29-2004, 11:32 AM
Thanks, clairobscur.

To clarify, I'm not suggesting that their is anything 'wrong' with either of these two practices, I'm just looking to verify some things I had read over the weekend.

And JRDelirious's point about families sleeping together being the 'norm' throughout human history is well taken.

Scumpup
03-29-2004, 11:52 AM
Here is the "original report." (http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/waiwai/0201/020106moms.html) As you can see, the source for this ranks right up there with some of the goofier tabloids available in the US and UK.

sailor
03-29-2004, 12:07 PM
Some time ago I was visiting a couple who have two young daughters. We were in the living room and the one aged almost 4 was watching TV, sucking her thumb, sitting on an armchair with her legs spread out, one over each armrest. She looked quite cute and I called her mother's attention to her as we talked. The mother looked at her and said to me "Yeah, she masturbates all the time". Only then did I realize her other hand was down her pants and what she was doing with it. I was quite embarrassed for a moment but thank goodness the conversation just went on. I was just taken aback for a moment at how naturally it was said. In later visits I have noticed the girl does enjoy touching herself and sucking her thumb and nobody has told her not to do it. I hope she stops doing it in public before she turns 18.

It seems to me boys could do it just as well.

dorfl
03-29-2004, 12:20 PM
As far as I understand, technically it is only masturbation when the person has reached sexual maturity, read puperty.

You can already see very small babies (less than 6 months), uh, "touching" themselves.

vasyachkin
03-29-2004, 12:34 PM
Some time ago I was visiting a couple who have two young daughters. We were in the living room and the one aged almost 4 was watching TV, sucking her thumb, sitting on an armchair with her legs spread out, one over each armrest. She looked quite cute and I called her mother's attention to her as we talked. The mother looked at her and said to me "Yeah, she masturbates all the time". Only then did I realize her other hand was down her pants and what she was doing with it. I was quite embarrassed for a moment but thank goodness the conversation just went on. I was just taken aback for a moment at how naturally it was said. In later visits I have noticed the girl does enjoy touching herself and sucking her thumb and nobody has told her not to do it. I hope she stops doing it in public before she turns 18.

It seems to me boys could do it just as well.

aged 4 or aged 14 ?

lieu
03-29-2004, 12:41 PM
Talk about turning the tables.

I keep imagining it now being the mother turn to ask the son...

Are we almost there yet?
Are we almost there yet?
Are we almost there yet?

Carnac the Magnificent!
03-29-2004, 12:41 PM
And how do you construct the OP's apparently genuine question as being hate speech? To be so, it should be :

-A statement, while it's a question

-False, which has not been established yet.

-And finally offensive, and apart from your "eek" factor, I can't perceive anything inherently wrong with a mother masturbating her baby in order to put it to sleep.

You're saying that a false, offensive statement is tantamount to "hate speech"?

Re: you're value judgment on the act in question, I'm guessing a few tens of millions of Americans would have a major problem with this, especially if it involved, say, a father and his daughter. What the hell's wrong with a lullabye?

lieu
03-29-2004, 12:49 PM
Rock-a-bye, baby
In the treetop
When the mom blows
The libido will rock
When the kid breaks
The joy juice will fall
And down will cum baby
Color me appalled

Unauthorized Cinnamon
03-29-2004, 01:00 PM
Also, is it true that in Japan, the parents sleep in the same bed with their children, and that this practice is continued throughout childhood? If so, do the parents have sex with one another while the childen are in the same bed, or are they asked to sleep in their own beds on certain nights??

You make it sound like some bizarre culture-specific practice known only in Japan. Plenty of people around the world, including Americans, sleep in the same bed with their kids.

I believe most people have sex elsewhere or while their children are not in the bed with them.

Here's a message board of folks who share their beds with their kids:
http://messageboards.ivillage.com/iv-ppfamilybed

aeropl
03-29-2004, 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor:

Is it true that hate speech threads can get you banned?
Is that a joke?

To the OP: There have been many cultures that have had practices that would be considered sexually deviant (even criminally so) in our society. In a Human Sexuality psychology course I remember briefly studying some practices that sounded like the OP, although I don't think it was Japan.

In particular, I remember one culture where it was accepted for the males to perform fellatio on boys when they reached puberty. Don't believe me until I find a cite (no time for that now).

Unauthorized Cinnamon
03-29-2004, 04:03 PM
In particular, I remember one culture where it was accepted for the males to perform fellatio on boys when they reached puberty. Don't believe me until I find a cite (no time for that now).
You're probably thinking of the Sambia (http://www.leidenuniv.nl/fsw/iuaes/aids/sambia.htm), who believe that boys must ingest semen in order to become men.

rocking chair
03-29-2004, 06:29 PM
thank you aerynsun, i have been trying to remember the name of that tribe.

i had read a longer more detailed article in a magazine, not sure which one, discover, nat geo, arch, etc; i get tons. as i remembered boys were not weaned until age 7 then they would leave their parents hut and live with the bacholars and "nurse" there until 16 or 18 when they were considered adults and went through the adult ceremony.

the tribe had some very interesting customs.

Revtim
03-29-2004, 06:43 PM
And there's the Sambia tribe of New Guinea, where the pre-pubescent boys are encouraged to fellate a man of the tribe at least once a day.

I apologize in advance if this documented scientific anthropological fact is thought by some to be "hate speech"..... :rolleyes:

On preview I see this was already mentioned......

Johanna
03-29-2004, 07:14 PM
In college, I had a German-American friend who told me it was normal for German babysitters and nursemaids to masturbate the little Kinder to get them to sleep; it was an expected service and no one in Germany thought there was anything untoward about it. "Rub them off" was the phrase he used. It was back in the 1970s when he told me this, long before the alleged Japanese practice was noised about in the media. Can any German Dopers confirm this, or was he pulling my leg?

In Iran, Afghanistan, and India, it was once thought normal to give crying or coughing kids opium to get them to sleep. OPIUM! Now, which is worse? There was a very real danger of OD'ed opiated kids never waking up.

Tentacle Monster
03-29-2004, 07:17 PM
I remember reading the same thing in Journeyer by Gary Jennings, only it was 13th century Italy. I'm well aware that Journeyer was historical fiction. I've read about the practice elsewhere (I think I read about it in The Sex Atlas)

Sinungaling
03-29-2004, 07:23 PM
It's not just the Sambia, it is, or was, a common practice in Papua-New Guinea. I doubt things are still the same today, what with the different social and economic context those tribes live in today.

Also, I don't know about Japanese specifically, but among several cultures worldwide stroking the baby's genitals is not seen as sexual at all, and is instead seen as part of the normal way of soothing infants, akin to singing lullabies. (No, I can't think of any specific culture right now.)

sleeping
03-29-2004, 09:00 PM
Rock-a-bye, baby
In the treetop
When the mom blows
The libido will rock
When the kid breaks
The joy juice will fall
And down will cum baby
Color me appalled

lieu, that's both gross and hilarious. Love ya.

Exapno Mapcase
03-29-2004, 10:39 PM
In Iran, Afghanistan, and India, it was once thought normal to give crying or coughing kids opium to get them to sleep. OPIUM! Now, which is worse? There was a very real danger of OD'ed opiated kids never waking up.

Right on. No good American parent would ever do such a horrible thing.

Unless instead of opium it was called paragoric (http://cavemanchemistry.com/cavebook/chaspirin.html) and used to dull the pain of toothache or help stop diarrhea or used in a million and one other ways to quiet the child (mostly literally, by stopping the crying).
Morphine, C17H19O3N.H2O, is the most important alkaloid of opium and is the chief constituent which gives to laudanum and paragoric their poisonous and sedative qualities. Paragoric also contains camphor and aromatic oils which may have as much effect as the morphine.
— William Noyes, Textbook of Chemistry, 1913 AD

Guess you don't remember the 1950s so well. Too much paragoric? :)

Tenar
03-29-2004, 11:10 PM
And this, from the world of fiction (animal rights activism and social commentary in the guise of fiction, actually):

"I suppose Martha Mulwash did not mean to kill that baby when she dosed it with Dalby and soothing syrups; but she did kill it, and was tried for manslaughter." -- Anna Sewell, Black Beauty, 1877

Hmmm. Wonder if the 19th century British soothed their horses by...

Oh, never mind.

Skywatcher
03-29-2004, 11:28 PM
Some time ago I was visiting a couple who have two young daughters. We were in the living room and the one aged almost 4 was watching TV, sucking her thumb, sitting on an armchair with her legs spread out, one over each armrest. She looked quite cute and I called her mother's attention to her as we talked. The mother looked at her and said to me "Yeah, she masturbates all the time". Only then did I realize her other hand was down her pants and what she was doing with it. I was quite embarrassed for a moment but thank goodness the conversation just went on. I was just taken aback for a moment at how naturally it was said. In later visits I have noticed the girl does enjoy touching herself and sucking her thumb and nobody has told her not to do it. I hope she stops doing it in public before she turns 18.

It seems to me boys could do it just as well.There was that 3-year-old boy in Cleveland who liked to put his Tickle-Me-Elmo between his legs.

Tokyo_Mann
03-30-2004, 12:55 AM
Is it true that it is not an uncommon practice for Japanese mothers to manually masturbate their sons' penises to help them fall asleep at night?
Not that I've heard of. . .
I think JRDelirious is correct about this being mutated from the tabloid report. That urban legend has been floating around Japan for years.

Also, is it true that in Japan, the parents sleep in the same bed with their children, and that this practice is continued throughout childhood? If so, do the parents have sex with one another while the childen are in the same bed, or are they asked to sleep in their own beds on certain nights??

Traditionally, (many?) Japanese families slept in the same room, on futons (on the tatami floor) so there isn't "their own beds" to go back to, at least while the children were small. I asked a Japanese friend about how he handled sex, (he has a couple of kids, so . . .) and he said that small children will sleep deeply enough they don't wake up.

The standard Japanese joke is that if they do wake up, you tell them mommy and daddy are wrestling, and to go back to bed.

chorpler
03-30-2004, 03:05 AM
In Iran, Afghanistan, and India, it was once thought normal to give crying or coughing kids opium to get them to sleep. OPIUM! Now, which is worse? There was a very real danger of OD'ed opiated kids never waking up.

I have a laudanum bottle (empty) that came from a manufacturer town in Utah in the late 1890's, with the dosing instructions printed right on the label. Laudanum, of course, is tincture of opium, opium dissolved in alcohol.

The doses are given in drops and are listed by age.

They start like this:

3 months old: 1 drop
6 months old: 2 drops
12 months old: 3 drops
18 months old: 5 drops .......

Everybody used to give kids opium. Personally, I don't think the practice was quite as bad as it sounds to us today, but that's just me.

Starguard
03-30-2004, 03:10 AM
Rock-a-bye, baby
In the treetop
When the mom blows
The libido will rock
When the kid breaks
The joy juice will fall
And down will cum baby
Color me appalled

ROFL - :D

Cobalt Blue
03-30-2004, 03:30 AM
In college, I had a German-American friend who told me it was normal for German babysitters and nursemaids to masturbate the little Kinder to get them to sleep; it was an expected service and no one in Germany thought there was anything untoward about it. "Rub them off" was the phrase he used. It was back in the 1970s when he told me this, long before the alleged Japanese practice was noised about in the media.

A good number of late Victorian medical and advice books (J. H. Kellogg's Plain Facts for Old and Young is typical) circulated this belief. Many children learned to masturbate, they argued, from (usually Irish) maids and nurses who used it as a soothing device. Just another aspect of the Eternal Servant Problem, I gather. :D

Rune
03-30-2004, 06:04 AM
Darn! Why didn’t I ever have a German nurse?

I seem to remember this masturbation tale also being one of the many stories Margaret Mead was duped with.

There’s no opium around these parts, but a healthy glass of schnapps to sleep on used to be good mother lore. Also I don’t know that opium/ schnapps are so much worse than Ritalin for breakfast or hours of daily TV intake. Supposedly your brain is more active in an opium-induced sleep than when watching TV.

Our children always slept in out bed for as long as they want; about four or five years or something (there’s something the wrong with this sentence) – the youngest one will rather sleep with her sister though. I thought that was pretty normal in Europe and America, at least it’s quite common here.

Mycroft Holmes
03-30-2004, 06:25 AM
In college, I had a German-American friend who told me it was normal for German babysitters and nursemaids to masturbate the little Kinder to get them to sleep; it was an expected service and no one in Germany thought there was anything untoward about it. "Rub them off" was the phrase he used. It was back in the 1970s when he told me this, long before the alleged Japanese practice was noised about in the media. Can any German Dopers confirm this, or was he pulling my leg?

He was pulling your leg. I'm a German doper and I have never heard of this "practice". It is however well known that a sip of beer or some schnapps to sleep on is probably still done now and then. I remember trying my first sip of beer when I was quite small, and my kids have also had a sip of beer before. I was surprised when they actually said they liked it. Then again it was Grolsch, so I guess they just have good taste. ;)

kellner
03-30-2004, 08:27 AM
In college, I had a German-American friend who told me it was normal for German babysitters and nursemaids to masturbate the little Kinder to get them to sleep; it was an expected service and no one in Germany thought there was anything untoward about it. "Rub them off" was the phrase he used. It was back in the 1970s when he told me this, long before the alleged Japanese practice was noised about in the media. Can any German Dopers confirm this, or was he pulling my leg?It is definitely not accepted today. From reading a ca 1900 German housekeeping advice book I remember that parents were urged to make sure that their servants don't do this. It was described as a common problem and attributed to the servants' laziness.

xash
03-30-2004, 09:24 AM
Is it true that hate speech threads can get you banned? :rolleyes:Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor, please leave the moderating to the moderators.

If you take offense to someone's post, please use the "Report bad post" function instead.

Do not do this again or you could lose your posting privileges.

Thank you.

-xash
General Questions Moderator

Acsenray
03-30-2004, 10:18 AM
In Iran, Afghanistan, and India, it was once thought normal to give crying or coughing kids opium to get them to sleep. OPIUM! Now, which is worse? There was a very real danger of OD'ed opiated kids never waking up.

These days, if you go to India and are accosted by a beggarwoman who is carrying a small child, you might notice that the child seems unusually quiet and passive and often has watery eyes -- I believe these children are drugged, whether with opium or not I don't know, to keep them quiet. In fact, it is likely in such cases that the beggarwoman is not even the mother of the child. Beggars in India are often controlled by pimp-like criminals, who assign them territories and hand out drugged babies in the manner of props and then collect most of the money from the beggar.

Carnac the Magnificent!
03-30-2004, 11:19 AM
These days, if you go to India and are accosted by a beggarwoman who is carrying a small child, you might notice that the child seems unusually quiet and passive and often has watery eyes -- I believe these children are drugged, whether with opium or not I don't know, to keep them quiet. In fact, it is likely in such cases that the beggarwoman is not even the mother of the child. Beggars in India are often controlled by pimp-like criminals, who assign them territories and hand out drugged babies in the manner of props and then collect most of the money from the beggar.

By chance, do these "pimp-like criminals" happen to be Japanese mothers?

liirogue
03-30-2004, 01:37 PM
(Please ignore this post. I tried to subscribe, but it said I didn't have the proper priveleges to do so or that my account had been disabled :confused: Carry on with masturbating babies)

Kalhoun
03-30-2004, 02:47 PM
You make it sound like some bizarre culture-specific practice known only in Japan. Plenty of people around the world, including Americans, sleep in the same bed with their kids.

Yeah, but here...we call it "co-sleeping". Sheesh :rolleyes:

lieu
03-30-2004, 03:14 PM
Now I understand the reference to the House Of The Rising Son.

kniz
03-31-2004, 12:28 AM
What the hell's wrong with a lullabye?
You've obviously never heard me sing. :o

Chotii
03-31-2004, 02:01 AM
If not laudanum or opium or alcohol, there's always Benadryl or....jeez, what was the stuff my mom's ped wanted her to give my little brother...phenobarbitol. Wanted to prescribe it for her, to give my little brother to shut him up. There's a good chance his tummy hurt because he didn't tolerate cow's milk proteins, and of course he was getting homemade formula made from tinned cow's milk, water and sugar. That's what you *did*, in the 70's.

As for the family bed, it's actually very common even in the US. My kids have all slept in bed with us until the age of 2 or so, and then as needed until older. They are still allowed to come in bed with us in the event of a bad dream, or whatever, but they exercise this rarely. Just occasionally we'll wake in the morning and there's an extra body in the bed.

As for sex with kids in the bed...never with one old enough to ask questions, if they're awake. They do tend to sleep like rocks, though (and of course the older ones are in another room now). If we were quiet, we could probably get away with it. If we were on a futon on the floor, much more so (no rocking/shaking/squeaking). We've never had any child walk in on us at an inopportune moment. Yet. They do sleep a lot like rocks.

Dogface
03-31-2004, 08:10 AM
Mainichi as a source, eh? Well, let's put the matter this way: Asking about this particular matter, given what the only "primary" source for the claim happens to be, is essentially identical to asking whether or not the Batboy featured in Weekly World News is real. If the story comes from Mainichi, presume false until shown otherwise.

Surreal
03-31-2004, 10:55 AM
I didn't read this claim in Mainichi, I read it in The Journal of Psychohistory-

http://www.geocities.com/kidhistory/ja/history1.htm

"Childhood in contemporary Japan, although somewhat more Western than that of other Eastern nations, still includes masturbation by mothers "to put them to sleep." Parents often have intercourse with their children in bed with them, and "co-sleeping," with parents physically embracing the child, often continues until the child is ten or fifteen. One recent Japanese study found daughters sleeping with their fathers over 20 percent of the time after age 16. Recent sex surveys report memories of sexual abuse even higher than comparable American studies, and "hot lines" of sexual abuse report mother-son incest in almost a third of the calls, the mother saying to her teenage son, "It's not good to do it alone. Your IQ becomes lower. I will help you, " or "You cannot study if you cannot have sex. You may use my body," or "I don't want you to get into trouble with a girl. Have sex with me instead."

Lando Griffin
03-31-2004, 11:19 AM
I'd take anything from that cite with a HUGE grain of salt, however. I find it hard to believe that a well-reputed, credible medical journal would need to use Geocities for their website. In addition, only about half of the links on that cite worked for me. I got a Yahoo "page not found" message.

Exapno Mapcase
03-31-2004, 11:49 AM
Also remember that "pyschohistory" was the fake science invented by Isaac Asimov in his Foundation books.

There is a website for the The Institute for Psychohistory (http://www.psychohistory.com/), which appears to be mostly one guy. I see no evidence that its journal is peer-reviewed. Although I'm not sure who's a peer in this context.

Acsenray
03-31-2004, 12:12 PM
Taking a look at one article in Exapno's link, "The Universality of Incest," it looks like a whole lot of raving nonsense to me -- indeed, little more than one cultural slander after another.