A possible explination for certain Guests

[TitoBenito]

Recently I came across an interesting bulletin board when I googled someone’s text. The board, which was run by white nationalist and sympathizers, listed the Straight Dope as a good place for activism. I don't want to link the cite because I'm not sure if it would break a rule, and I don’t want people starting anything with other boards. Its been done in the past and it wastes the time of the moderators.

Under a list of 8 websites including the Straight Dope

"Please, don't post any retarded Nazi/Skinhead/KKK stuff, just good intelligent Paleo-Conservative and Christian Nationalist messages. Stick to literature by Kevin MacDonald, Jared Taylor, Pat Buchanan, J. Philippe Rushton, Richard Lynn, Sam Francis, Charles Murray, Glayde Whitney, Marian Van Court, Matt Nuenke, the American Renaissance authors, Joseph Sobran, Vdare.com authors, The Occidental Quarterly authors, Justin Raimondo, Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Institute for Historical Review, Michael Hoffman II, and similar authors."

Very creepy.

[Astroboy14]

You mean StormFront?

If so, we know...

[TitoBenito]

No. This one seems to be more in line with Science Girls posts than the last sf invasion. Might not be related at all but a lot of her posts came from the site directly. I just thought it was weird.

[Astroboy14]

Interesting... I just went to StormFront (for the first time ever!) to see if it was, in fact, the site you were referrencing... their "Links" page seems to be down at the moment. So I went to the forums to poke around a bit, and the first thread I clicked on, without looking closely at the title or OP, was by Charles A. Lindbergh!

I had to laugh...

[Astroboy14]

No.

Ah! Okie-dokie... could you give me a link, then? :)

[Astroboy14]

I don't want to link the cite because I'm not sure if it would break a rule, and I don’t want people starting anything with other boards. Its been done in the past and it wastes the time of the moderators.



Nevermind... just re-read your OP...

[TitoBenito]

If you want to see where its from google my quoted section. I looked at the site some more and they have a whole board dedicated to Cyber Activism or what I call poltical spam.

[TitoBenito]

They even have a 3 step plan

"As many of you know, the web is full of message boards [MBs] or bulletin boards [BBs] -- places where members of a political forum can post text messages with topics like, "Gun-Ban Law Will Pass," and then, other posters respond to that post underneath that post, and so on...

We have just been kicked off of yet another MB/BB for something we posted. We have been kicked off of maybe 10 MBs in the last 2 years. Big deal? Well, the pattern of us getting kicked off of MBs is very similar:

1) First, we post something very-true-but-politically-incorrect, e.g. Blacks having more diabetes than Whites despite diet factors.

2) Second, a poster at the MB yells and screams about that post, but strangely that poster cannot offer any concrete reason why our post is inaccurate. That complaining poster is almost always a self-identified Jew [90% of the time].

3) After 10 or 12 posts, we are banned from the MB. Whenever we ask the board administration which posts of ours were untrue/wrong/inaccurate, they cannot or will not tell us"

[Atticus Finch]

Noam Chomsky's being used by skinheads now??

[Zabali_Clawbane]

They are quite the pieces of work aren't they? :rolleyes: They'll give themselves away eventually, they're after more recruits for their cause, so they will have to start trying to hook likely catches, and try to reel them in eventually.



It's just as easy as the OP says to find the site.

[gum]

Fuck. What a bunch of pathetic sods. What do they hope to accomplish? Free ride to the nut house?

[Gest]

Noam Chomsky's being used by skinheads now??My bet is that they'd cherry pick his anti-zionist material and, at the same time, hold him up as a an example of a dangerous and treacherous Jew for his opposition to American foreign policy. Stupid and immoral people can easily manage such intellectual acrobatics. I'd love to hear Chomsky's view if this is correct.

TitoBenito, why did you bold Rushton and Lynn's names in your OP?

[Astroboy14]

It's just as easy as the OP says to find the site.

Right you are... I just found it...

Ugh.

[Siege]

I've decided that this is one advantage of this board going to pay-to-post. I hope we'll get fewer of this sort of idiot. If they choose to rot their souls and minds with the ugliness they wallow in, that's their privilege. Me, I've chosen a more pleasant worldview.

CJ

[Mangetout]

This certainly confirms my own research on the subject; on the SF board, there are a number of threads detailing how to act when visiting other boards, essentially advocating concealment of true motive and other wilful deception.

[Captain Amazing]

I've decided that this is one advantage of this board going to pay-to-post. I hope we'll get fewer of this sort of idiot.


Most of them don't last 30 days as it is....

[Liberal]

This certainly confirms my own research on the subject; on the SF board, there are a number of threads detailing how to act when visiting other boards, essentially advocating concealment of true motive and other wilful deception."All warfare is deception" — Sun Tzu

[Jonathan Chance]

Heck, I don't even mind if they're pushing a straight paleo-conservative viewpoint. There's room for all God's children on the Dope, right?

As long as they don't come in guns blazing saying 'kill the jews' and 'damn blacks' and suchlike there's room for us to debunk them...or maybe find spots of agreement.

If we're about fighting ignorance isn't it easier if the ignorant beat a path to our door?

[dantheman]

Most of them don't last 30 days as it is....

Yeah, but people who really believe in something and want to convert others will find the $14.95 somewhere. The money will deter them somewhat, but not entirely, IMO.

[Ludovic]

Paleo-Conservative? :confused:
(don't wanna go to the site to find out...)

[Mangetout]

Heck, I don't even mind if they're pushing a straight paleo-conservative viewpoint. There's room for all God's children on the Dope, right?

As long as they don't come in guns blazing saying 'kill the jews' and 'damn blacks' and suchlike there's room for us to debunk them...or maybe find spots of agreement.

If we're about fighting ignorance isn't it easier if the ignorant beat a path to our door?The trouble is that you're often not tackling them on their actual views, you're just debating their choice of smokescreen, which they will happily discard and create a different one, but all the while this is fed by their unspoken and unchallenged core views.

[Mangetout]

Also, some of them have complained on the SF board that they are being picked on by the mods because they have been banned here five times - they won't find the money and register because they don't feel compelled to observe the rules here.

[elf6c]

"All warfare is deception" — Sun Tzu

However, given their bent, we can safely say those mouthbreathers wouldn't read a "non-white" author. And given their intellectual shortcomings, probably wouldn't understand his theories anyway.

As far as them joining for $15- go for it. They will just get Banned sooner or later, and the Board keeps their money.

[Jonathan Chance]

The trouble is that you're often not tackling them on their actual views, you're just debating their choice of smokescreen, which they will happily discard and create a different one, but all the while this is fed by their unspoken and unchallenged core views.

You see, I don't see anything wrong with that. I'm currently in a dialogue over in GD with castaway about 'genetic freedom'. It's worth it to me to sound him/her out and see what exactly is the point there.

Any discussion is worth it if both sides can be civil to each other. And maybe it'll get through. Who knows? But I do know that it's against the soi-disant 'core values' of the board here to just dismiss them out of hand.

[Jimmy Chitwood]

Any discussion is worth it if both sides can be civil to each other. And maybe it'll get through. Who knows? But I do know that it's against the soi-disant 'core values' of the board here to just dismiss them out of hand.

Also, if you read some of the "instructions" for activism on one of those boards, they're saying the same thing. Ultimately, although some of them are just idiots, they're trying to convert us just like we want to change their minds. It's in everyone's best interest that we engage in actual discussion of their worldview. If we curse at them and ban them, there'll be more. If we beat them down consistently with facts and reason, that's no fun for them, and they either run out of arguments and find another target, or they actually get it.

[Malthus]

Also, if you read some of the "instructions" for activism on one of those boards, they're saying the same thing. Ultimately, although some of them are just idiots, they're trying to convert us just like we want to change their minds. It's in everyone's best interest that we engage in actual discussion of their worldview. If we curse at them and ban them, there'll be more. If we beat them down consistently with facts and reason, that's no fun for them, and they either run out of arguments and find another target, or they actually get it.

Sounds too much like work to me. I'm here to have fun, arguning about stuff that relatively reasonable people can disagree about. Having Jew-haters and White Power types constantly trolling for converts makes the board a slightly less fun place to be. I don't wanna waste precious time arguing with these folks; I really don't think my chances of "converting" them are any greater than their chances of "converting" me (i.e. non-existant).

Now, if they declared themselves openly, I could just ignore 'em. But if they pretend to be what they are not, they add deception and dishonesty to the annoyance of being a hater - and that is more irritation than the dubious pleasures of arguing with them is worth.

[Lute Skywatcher]

Also, some of them have complained on the SF board that they are being picked on by the mods because they have been banned here five times - they won't find the money and register because they don't feel compelled to observe the rules here.'Course, one has to first understand rules before one can observe them. Those who wear their bannings as a badge of honor are either habitual trolls or are unable to comprehend the rules.

[John Mace]

Yeah, I spent some time on one of the WN boards, and found pretty much the same as the OP did. Castaway is using such obvious WN debating tricks, that it's not even sporting to debate with him/her.

[World Eater]

Yeah, but people who really believe in something and want to convert others will find the $14.95 somewhere. The money will deter them somewhat, but not entirely, IMO.

Good, so we get some of their money before they eventually get booted.

Fine with me.

[TitoBenito]

TitoBenito, why did you bold Rushton and Lynn's names in your OP?

Because they were two of the main people I remembered offhand Science Girl talking about. I just wanted to draw the connection with the racist BB message telling how to invade a board posted 13 day ago with Science Girl starting her threads using the same tactics a few days later.

[Dissonance]

She slipped and posted linking to “retarded Nazi/Skinhead/KKK stuff” early on in the form of John "Birdman" Bryant. Some really funny stuff there if you can stomach the smell looking around. My favorites are his claim that his declining site ranking is due to the numbers being cooked by the Jews to oppress him and a rather odd idea about David Irving. Since his wife apparently had bad financial dealing with Irving, it turns out that Irving is a homosexual pedophile (since apparently the two are one and the same :rolleyes: ), and that he is an agent of Organized Jewry. Yep, that’s right; David Irving the holocaust denier is actually part of ZOG.

[Jonathan Chance]

That's right, baby...

We're organized.

[Earthling]

However, given their bent, we can safely say those mouthbreathers wouldn't read a "non-white" author.
Don't be so sure about that. I ran across an SF post that quoted Mahatma Gandhi to bolster the "whites are superior" position -- in a thread bashing a website set up by an (Asian) Indian guy, no less. Yeah, enlist a skinny non-white peacenik to your cause when it's convenient. Oh, the irony.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Paleo-Conservative? :confused:
(don't wanna go to the site to find out...)
Read "watered-down white supremacist dipshit".

[MaxTheVool]

1) First, we post something very-true-but-politically-incorrect, e.g. Blacks having more diabetes than Whites despite diet factors.


I've never heard this particular claim before, and it doesn't seem either preposterously unbelievable or necessarily evil and racist (although presumably it would be in this context). Does anyone know where it originated, and if there's any truth to it?

[Jonathan Chance]

Read "watered-down white supremacist dipshit".

Nyeh. Plus or minus. Pat Buchanan is defined in that 'paleoconservative' space. I almost ran 'American Conservative' magazine a few years ago. Man, that would have been a fun challenge.

Think of them as not so much 'white supremacists' but rather old-school republicanism in that they want us to disengage from foreign adventures (like the UN, for example), kill the deficit, and minimize the government influence on peoples lives as much as possible, trade protectionism, and a tight control on immigration.

Heck, here's a link to that magazine. (http://www.amconmag.com/aboutus.html)

Note: it doesn't use the word 'paleo-conservative' but that's how they consistently self-identified during several interviews in 2002.

[pravnik]

We have just been kicked off of yet another MB/BB for something we posted. We have been kicked off of maybe 10 MBs in the last 2 years. Big deal? Well, the pattern of us getting kicked off of MBs is very similar:

1) First, we post something very-true-but-politically-incorrect, e.g. Blacks having more diabetes than Whites despite diet factors.

2) Second, a poster at the MB yells and screams about that post, but strangely that poster cannot offer any concrete reason why our post is inaccurate. That complaining poster is almost always a self-identified Jew [90% of the time].

3) After 10 or 12 posts, we are banned from the MB. Whenever we ask the board administration which posts of ours were untrue/wrong/inaccurate, they cannot or will not tell us"

Yeah, I remember when this happened...

Poster 1: Of course, blacks in America have a higher rate of hypertension than do other ethnic groups...

Everyone Else: That's bullshit! You're a racist! I'm a self identified jew 90% of the time! Yell and scream!

Poster 1: No, it's true. According to the American Heart Association, numerous studies have shown that black Americans have around twice the rate of high blood pressure, and five to seven times the rate of severe hypertension. It's a serious problem. Here, look at these links to Pathophysiology of Hypertension in Blacks (Oxford Press) (http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/Medicine/Physiology/?ci=0195067207&view=usa) and The American Heart Association (http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3010303).

Evil Mod Person: We do not allow links to racist websites like the American Heart Association that point out innocuous and undisputed medical facts. You're banned, you wretch.

Yep. Happens just like that, all the time.

[Miller]

"Please, don't post any retarded Nazi/Skinhead/KKK stuff, just good intelligent Paleo-Conservative and Christian Nationalist messages. Stick to literature by Kevin MacDonald, Jared Taylor, Pat Buchanan, J. Philippe Rushton...


I knew it! He was always the shiftiest of the Kids in the Hall!

[Lute Skywatcher]

I've never heard this particular claim before, and it doesn't seem either preposterously unbelievable or necessarily evil and racist (although presumably it would be in this context). Does anyone know where it originated, and if there's any truth to it?Seems to be genetic (http://www.blackhealthcare.com/BHC/Diabetes/Description.asp).

[Inoshiro]

Nyeh. Plus or minus. Pat Buchanan is defined in that 'paleoconservative' space. I almost ran 'American Conservative' magazine a few years ago. Man, that would have been a fun challenge.

Think of them as not so much 'white supremacists' but rather old-school republicanism in that they want us to disengage from foreign adventures (like the UN, for example), kill the deficit, and minimize the government influence on peoples lives as much as possible, trade protectionism, and a tight control on immigration.

Heck, here's a link to that magazine. (http://www.amconmag.com/aboutus.html)

Note: it doesn't use the word 'paleo-conservative' but that's how they consistently self-identified during several interviews in 2002.

Yeah, the Paleos are opposed to the neo-cons who are much more pro-Israel and "internationalist" and quite a few of whose opinion leaders are Jewish IIRC. This is one reason why the WN types stick with the Paleo crowd.

[Cardinal]

Maybe this is a place to ask this question:

I was one of the main people battling with Rabbi Rosencratz (sic), who turned out to be a troll from the SF board.

Someone else astutely called him on it. I didn't because it was easier for me to imagine that there was a radical offended Jew than an SFer who thought it was funny to yank our chains in this way.

I honestly don't get it. What did he want to do?

1. Show what Jews do and have us attack him for it, illustrating how jerky Jews are.
I don't think anyone ever thought that this was typical of Jews. It never ocurred to me that this was some stereotype brought to life.

2. Have us join him in attack on SFers so he could show how Jew-loving we are.
In fact, we argued that racist people are normal people with some bad ideas, not psychotics.

3. Just jerk us around in general like he was 12.
This sounds the most plausible because it doesn't need the rational explanation that I can't find.

[tomndebb]

I honestly don't get it. What did he want to do? I posted my guess as to his motives in his Pit thread. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4693343#post4693343)

OTOH, there are those people among those groups who sincerely believe that "white people" are doomed and that "Jews" are involved in some sort of conspiracy to make it happen. (Never mind that the eradication of whites would eliminate Jews, pretty much by definition.) For those people, their only interest is in gathering poor put-upon white people to the cause.

They are not going to persuade very many rational people by argument, since their facts are nonexistent and their logic is flawed, so they troll the world looking for people to join them just by repeating their claims as often as possible. (The Big Lie technique.) For them, their primary driving force is that of the publicist, not the scholar: "I don't care what they say as long as they spell my name right." By wandering in here and getting any attention, they hope to find like-minded people who think that they are being persecuted who will go visit the hate sites to see what the fuss is about and, if luck is with the WN crowd, will decide to join the movement.

[PatriotX]

Noam Chomsky's being used by skinheads now??

I noticed some other surprising names on the list.

[PatriotX]

Paleo-Conservative? :confused:
(don't wanna go to the site to find out...)
Opposed to the neo-conservatives who hold sway inn th eWH and elsewhere now.

[PatriotX]

Read "watered-down white supremacist dipshit".
Bull Shit

[Jonathan Chance]

Didn't I say that in more words up there?

[da_pope]

'science girl' 'lyricalreckoner' 'castaway' etc... have come with one purpose in mind. It's not debate, it's not to fight ignorance, but to spew shit all over these boards.

I hate that I can't jump in within the first couple of posts and say 'don't take the bait, just ignore it'. It's against the rules to call a troll a troll. That’s fine, I can live with that. They're NOT DEBATING. I hate to see people attempt to intelligently discuss with these fucksticks.

I'm not buying 'rational discourse is better than ignoring them or shouting them down'; they're not responding to questions asked, they refuse to cite proper sources. They don't concede points; there is no rational discourse with these posters. The game is disruption, distortion, and other assorted bullshit.

I'm a lurker, not a poster; I have not the mental fortitude of those dedicated to fight ignorance. I have found myself walking into threads thinking one way and walking out thinking the opposite. I enjoy the spirited debates on god and politics and life, that’s why I continue to come back, day after day.

I hate to see the WNs take a laughing diarrhea on every thread in GD.

[holmes]

'science girl' 'lyricalreckoner' 'castaway' etc... have come with one purpose in mind. It's not debate, it's not to fight ignorance, but to spew shit all over these boards.

I hate that I can't jump in within the first couple of posts and say 'don't take the bait, just ignore it'. It's against the rules to call a troll a troll. That’s fine, I can live with that. They're NOT DEBATING. I hate to see people attempt to intelligently discuss with these fucksticks....

I would agree, except these guys are only expressing what many people think, no not to the same extreme, but to a certain degree....

How many people wonder why group "X" doesn't do as well as group "Y"? While the reasonable person may not believe in separatism, I find they have that nagging doubt that there maybe a "reason".

When these guys come here and actually say that there's a "Genetic" reason why and they can "prove" it and their arguments are ripped to shreds....I like to think that, that lurker who secretly questioned whether "X" really is "different" than "Y", goes nah, that's the thoughts of the ignorant....I know better.

We've beaten these guy back.

[matt_mcl]

I'm a self identified jew 90% of the time!

I know what that's like. I don't necessarily like to self-identify all the time either. ;)

[PatriotX]

Didn't I say that in more words up there?

Yeah, but sometimes I post as I read.

[PatriotX]

Yeah, but sometimes I post as I read.


Meaning that I hadn't read your post yet.

[TitoBenito]

I knew it! He was always the shiftiest of the Kids in the Hall!

Never trusted that guy either, then again I never trusted any of those people if you catch my drift. Damn flappy head and beedy eyes with their heads all full of lies.

[RickJay]

OTOH, there are those people among those groups who sincerely believe that "white people" are doomed and that "Jews" are involved in some sort of conspiracy to make it happen. (Never mind that the eradication of whites would eliminate Jews, pretty much by definition.) For those people, their only interest is in gathering poor put-upon white people to the cause.
Actually, I'd say their motivation comes more from being gathered to the cause than gathering others.

Look, what makes a person a white supremacist? You don't just misread the newspaper and get the mistaken impression that Jews run the world. The great, great majority of neo-Nazis are:

- White males, ages 18 to 40
- Uneducated
- Un- or under-employed
- Have difficulty forming healthy sexual relationship with women

They are, in other words, losers - were losers BEFORE the became Nazis. White supremacy offers the gardon-variety loser two incredibly enticing carrots:

1. Someone to blame for their loserdom. It's not YOUR fault you can't hold a job and don't have a girlfriend and flunked out of high school - it's the ZOG, or the "niggers," or the "spics," or (insert group here.) You can see that pattern directed at other groups by young losers in other countries.

2. A group to belong to. Losers have been rejected by school, by employers, and by women (I know, some are women; the great majority are not), so the local chapter of White Power Inc. offers a group that not only accepts them, but gives them a fantasy identity - the Young Aryan Resister - which makes them feel powerful and important. They aren't losers, see; they're members of the lost Aryan Race, the superior ones, the masters of the world.

Look at the symbology they use - the clenched fist, the armored warrior. A survey of white power heavy metal albums reveals album art that looks like old Nazi props from the "Indiana Jones" sets combined with storyboard art from "Conan the Barbarian." One album has a cover featuring a huge, cartoonish warrior holding a battle axe - an image so over-the-top Viking-cum-homoerotic it makes you laugh. Symbols of virility, power, strength, violence.

The young Nazi is usually a young man with no economic or social power. He resents his lowly place, fears for his virility. What he wants is not to LEAD, but to BELONG.

[gum]

Excellent post, RickJay. Thank you.

[Siege]

I agree with RickJay. While I haven't, as far as I know, known any white-supremacists in real life, I had a lot of experience with bullies growing up, usually as one of their victims. When I tried to figure out their mindset, I came to the conclusion part of it involved wanting to be better than someone. I figured it had to be a bit of feeling that even though they'd never date the pretty girls they wanted to or be as successful as the cream of the crop at least they were better than that handicapped person or that person with the funny accent. In my experience in high school, the worst bullies weren't the school's social elite; they were the ones with little academic, social, or athletic success.

I understand the need to belong and the need to believe you're not the stupidest, least worthy form of scum to walk the face of the earth. I've need both things rather desperately myself at times. I will not, however, stand for the right of people to beat up and degrade others to fill those needs. You see, people doing just that to me left me desperate to belong, etc. I'd prefer it if people would not insist on transfering their insecurities! :rolleyes:

CJ

[tomndebb]

Actually, I'd say their motivation comes more from being gathered to the cause than gathering others. You have explained who tends to get recruited pretty well. (I have minor quibbles: women are increasingly showing up in their ranks, for example.)

However, how they get recruited does not answer the question "Why do they come here and pretend to be non-white or Jewish? (Particularly when they get shot down so thoroughly.)"

My responses was to that question.

[Jack Sarang]

TitoBenito, why did you bold Rushton and Lynn's names in your OP?

Rushton is a psychologist who has published papers claiming that blacks are genetically inferior to whites based on intelligence.

He's widely considered a crank by anyone who has studied Psychology due to his very obvious agenda and dubious methodology. For every paper he publishes there are about 10-11 refutations and then numerous rejoinders have been thrown back and forth.

[Blalron]

It seems to me that White Supremacists are afraid of Jews and how intelligent they are, how they control all the banks and media, how they control the world. If the guys at SF really believe that, why don't they all just convert to Judaism and jump on the world domination bandwaggon? ;j

[dropzone]

I almost ran 'American Conservative' magazine a few years ago. You? YOU?!?!?

Well, I suppose, since I used to run this TeenAged Republican newsletter during the Nixon admin.... But I had the old "you see, there was this girl..." excuse while I doubt Lady Chance would let you get away with that.

But YOU? "American Conservative?"don't post any retarded Nazi/Skinhead/KKK stuffEven THEY know how poorly written that shit is.

[dropzone]

women are increasingly showing up in their ranks, for example.Yeah, I've noticed that, too. Why do you suppose that is? And it's a bad sign--now that these guys finally have a chance of getting laid they'll NEVER quit.

[Jonathan Chance]

What's so astonishing about that, drop? You know I'm a professional publishing man. I've never much cared about the topic.

And at least Buchanan and his folks are honest about what they believe.