Zeropoint energy a solution or a urban legend?

[back_online]

Here is the first ZPE patent ever! Very exciting news and looks very convincing! I've been following Bearden's work for about 5 years or so and this is really serious stuff. Five of these together would power an entire house without any other source needed if you feed the output back into the machine.

Zeropoint Link (http://cheniere.org/megstatus.htm)

Question: Is there a consipiracy to block this type of technology?
I seriously need an "idiot's guide" to understand how this works. ;)

[Padeye]

Call me a second law of thermodynamics traditionalist but I smell something fishy. First, you don't need to demonstrate that an invention works to get a patent. The patent office does not consider perpetual motion machines such as over unity devices but it may not have been presented as that. If I'm not mistaken this is a bit of flim-flam that "proves" overunity by misrepresenting the charge and discharge curves of coils and capacitors and by comparing nubers that don't have a proper context to each other.

I like the quote in what they don't want you to know about electrical circuits that says "10 TRILLION PERCENT OF THE CURRENT PRODUCED IS WASTED!" Uh huh. That goes a bit beyond coach telling the team to give a mere 110%.

You don't need an idiots guide to how it works because it doesn't work. They claim to have demonstrations but don't show them. If they have a patent they have protection. If there big energy conspiracy against them this guy would be sharing a room with Jimmy Hoffa instead of selling his bool-puckey books and videos online.

[Exapno Mapcase]

If you looked more closely at that patent you'd see that it was two years old. Not exactly breaking news.

I don't believe in zero point energy myself, but if you want to jump into the pond of true believers, the ZPEnergy - The Energy of The Future (http://www.zpenergy.com/index.php) site is the place to go.

Idiot's Guide indeed!

[Diceman]

It looks like it's just a modern version of the classic "Perpetual Motion Machine" gimmick. The only thing that you need to understand is that it is impossible to create energy out of nothing. It just can't happen.

[aahala]

The zeropoint page had a prominent link in the upper left hand corner, so I clicked it.

I discovered a page that linked to some sort of magnet invention that claimed a 100% cure rate for terminal cancer. Another item, which I didn't bother looking at, was how to deactivate nuclear waste in 9.1 minutes.

Thank's for being my morning's entertainment.

[MMI]

Zero point energy esists, or at least there are "zero point fluctuations" that cause the casimir effect. ( http://physicsweb.org/article/world/15/9/6 describes the casimir effect)

However, I don't believe that anyone has been able to use this for any energy generation purposes.

[MC Master of Ceremonies]

ZPE does exist, it's a well accepted physical theory supported by observation. However it's still up for debate whether ZPE can be thought of as 'real energy' or whether it can be used for practical purposes. Anyone who suggests that they have found a way to harness it that is both theoretically sound and practically feasible at this time has the probabilty of being a crackpot equal to unity.

[AndrewL]

The "MEG" is a fraudulent device. It only appears to be generating more power than it consumes when you use sloppy methods to measure the input and output power. It's been discredited for a while.

http://www.phact.org/e/z/bearden.htm
http://www.phact.org/e/z/BeardenReview.htm
http://www.randi.org/jr/052402.html

[ianzin]

Claims like this have been around almost as long as people have been around to make them. It's all rubbish.

There's no need to debate it. Just be patient and wait. Wait until they are giving demonstrations that their machines work to people who are in a position to evaluate the claims properly. Wait until their machines are seen to be contributing to the energy needs of a factory or a town. Wait until their papers explaining the technology are appearing in peer-reviewed journals such as 'Science' and 'Nature'. Wait until these guys are collecting their Nobel prizes for their wonderful contributions to human knowledge and to the world's energy problems. Wait until they are selling their technology on a commercial basis to satisfied customers, such as third-world energy providers. In short, wait until they have proved their case. When that day comes, these guys can ridicule myself and others with a healthily skeptical attitude, and we will have to eat crow and admit we were wrong.

Until then, I say it's rubbish, common sense say's it's rubbish, science says it's rubbish and all but the whackiest fringe of the scientific and technological community says it's rubbish.

[toadspittle]

I've followed Bearden and ZPE for a little while now, but haven't seen anything worth selling the farm for yet. The patent is interesting, though, b/c it gives an explanation for the process that I've never seen before:

Regarding thermodynamic considerations, it is noted that, when the electromagnetic generator is operating, it is an open system not in thermodynamic equilibrium. The system receives static energy from the magnetic flux of the permanent magnet. Because the electromagnetic generator is self-switched without an additional energy input, the thermodynamic operation of the system is an open dissipative system, receiving, collecting, and dissipating energy from its environment; in this case, from the magnetic flux stored within the permanent magnet. Continued operation of the electromagnetic generator causes demagnetization of the permanent magnet. The use of a magnetic material including rare earth elements, such as a samarium cobalt material or a material including iron, neodymium, and boron is preferable within the present invention, since such a magnetic material has a relatively long life in this application.

Thus, an electromagnetic generator operating in accordance with the present invention should be considered not as a perpetual motion machine, but rather as a system in which flux radiated from a permanent magnet is converted into electricity, which is used both to power the apparatus and to power an external load. This is analogous to a system including a nuclear reactor, in which a number of fuel rods radiate energy which is used to keep the chain reaction going and to heat water for the generation of electricity to drive external loads.

So, nonsense or not, it at least gives an idea I hadn't heard before (even in his own earlier discussions of the MEG): the MEG demagnetizes permanent magnets, using their magnetic flux as a sort of fuel to generate electricity. An interesting notion, anyway. I wonder how much juice he reckons a magnet is storing.

[Cervaise]

I've been following Bearden's work for about 5 years or so and this is really serious stuff.Actually, it's a crock. But if you've got money you're just dying to invest, I'm going to be sending some fruit-filled pastries aloft. The rate of return will be phe-no-menal. Get out your checkbook. My organization is called the Consortium for the Advancement of Scientific Hope, but you can just use the group's initials on your check.Question: Is there a consipiracy to block this type of technology?Yes. It's called "the physical laws of the universe."

[Chronos]

This isn't even the first zero-point patent. I don't know when the first one was, but I saw them come up when I was a freshman in college, in 1995. And I suspect that they date back to the origins of modern quantum field theory.

It is possible for a device to produce more output power than input power, but it can't do it continuously. For instance, if you run a 1 horsepower motor for ten seconds to spin up a flywheel, and then spin the flywheel down in a single second, you can (in principle) get 10 horsepower out of spinning it down (actually less, because of inefficiencies, but you can still get well more than 1 hp). But that 10 horsepower only lasts for a second, while you had to spin the thing up for ten seconds. Total energy (not power) in and out is the same. You could also say that the average power input and output is the same, if you average over an appropriate time period.

Incidentally, the permanent magnet which is claimed to be the energy source should properly be considered to be inside the system, in which case this is a closed system and can't produce net energy output.

General rule of thumb for these types of devices: As a prominent physicist once said, "I'll believe in cold fusion when someone drives up to me in a car powered by it". This applies to all of these supposed sources for cheap or free energy.

[MaryEFoo]

Ianzin, the reason not to wait till it actually works is, that you would miss out on the investment opportunities!

[sailor]

Here is the first ZPE patent ever! Very exciting news and looks very convincing! Convincing? Convincing? Convincing to who? I've been following Bearden's work for about 5 years or so and this is really serious stuff. Really? Five of these together would power an entire house without any other source needed if you feed the output back into the machine. Really? Question: Is there a consipiracy to block this type of technology? No. There is just a conspiracy of a few to try to sell this as "technology" and get people to part with their money. I seriously need an "idiot's guide" to understand how this works. ;) The technology doesn't work. It's a scam. And I think you know it.

[Ring]

Here's what the highly respected physicist Matt McIrvine has to to say:

People who know a bit about quantum field theory like to claim that
the forces that come from vacuum energy differences (Casimir forces)
are conservative, i.e. that you'll never get much energy out of a
closed-cycle machine because you have to keep putting back in the
energy you got out. Several people have pointed out to me that
nobody, apparently, has really rigorously proven this. However it
seems to be the case for the Casimir force between two big parallel
conducting plates that you pull apart, and it seems reasonable that
it would be in other cases too. At least in static situations the
zero-point energy works much like a potential energy related to the
configuration of the system.

This appears to be very similar to what our own highly respected pysicist Chronos said.

Keep in mind that there's a hell of lot of energy in a constant temperature heat bath but there's no way to extract this energy without a temperature/energy differential. And there's the rub. There's no way to get from .5hw (zero point energy) to zero continously.

[Squink]

Anyone who suggests that they have found a way to harness it that is both theoretically sound and practically feasible at this time has the probabilty of being a crackpot equal to unity.
More like 1- (an arbitrarily small quantity). Despite the attractiveness of free energy to crackpots, there does exist some tiny chance that there's a useable effect here.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Yes, but that tiny chance is exactly equal to the difference between .999... and 1. :D

[CurtC]

The trouble with the new board format is that you can't look at the post count for Guests. I'd bet that back_online has a post count of one. In fact, I think this one post should be enough to get him banned, or at least warned. This wasn't a question - it was an advertisement for a scam.

[Ilsa_Lund]

The trouble with the new board format is that you can't look at the post count for Guests. I'd bet that back_online has a post count of one. In fact, I think this one post should be enough to get him banned, or at least warned. This wasn't a question - it was an advertisement for a scam.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php?userid=40140

[wolf_meister]

Gee you folks may be wrong.
I've been following back_online's posts for 5 minutes now and it's really serious stuff !!!

Okay, I'll turn the sarcasm machine off. I'll admit I didn't even bother clicking on that link because when I read the quote "...without any other source needed if you feed the output back into the machine..."
Yes, that's always a dead giveaway. Seems like the ideas of Keely and John Newman (and Charles Ponzi) are being diligently carried on by the work of others.

[Mathochist]

Yes, but that tiny chance is exactly equal to the difference between .999... and 1. :D

No, it's more like 1/omega.

By the way, what does Brian Greene have to say about it?